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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 1: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 1: one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or she had us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me, trust your trust me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I never live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two sweethearts who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Lola Blanc, I'm Megan Elizabeth, and.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is a former follower of Teal Swan named Catherine. Catherine.

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Speaker 1: We are leaving her last name out. She's going to

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Speaker 1: tell us about how she came to believe in the

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Speaker 1: charismatic social media guru who was often accused of being

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Speaker 1: a cult leader, as well as the red flags she

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Speaker 1: began to notice in how Teal behaved with her followers

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Speaker 1: both online and offline.

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Speaker 2: We'll discuss some of the big controversies around Teal, why

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Speaker 2: some of her stories are concerning and what Catherine learned

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Speaker 2: after she left the Teal tribe.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I'm excited about this one because I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've talked about Teal so many times, but

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Speaker 1: we've never actually spoken to someone who followed her actively. Listen.

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Speaker 1: If y'all follow us on TikTok or Instagram, which you

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Speaker 1: probably should, you may have seen us roasting Teal a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 4: Oh we got her good. We got this one good.

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Speaker 1: Because she posted a video that is talking about how

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Speaker 1: knowledge is essentially bad, which is like such a thing

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Speaker 1: a cult leader would say, follow us on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Follow us, Yeah, follow It's trust Me podcast on TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Right, I actually have to check. It's probably know this

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Speaker 1: Our TikTok handle is trust Me cult podcast.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, okay.

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Speaker 1: Listen, we're gonna post more content, more cult content for

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Speaker 1: y'all cult talkers. Is this what children say? I don't

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Speaker 1: know cult talk, but yeah, so someone we've been fascinated

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Speaker 1: with for a while, and we will get a little

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Speaker 1: bit more in depth with it today with Catherine, who

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Speaker 1: was awesome. Before we get into it, megan question, as always,

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Speaker 1: what is the cultiest thing that's happened to you this week.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, hopefully some listeners can send me some

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Speaker 2: tips because this is a cult I'm ready to join.

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Speaker 2: I want to join. I'm having a hard time joining.

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Speaker 2: My sister and my mom both have Celiac's disease, so

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Speaker 2: it has been recommended to me several million times that

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Speaker 2: I should cut out gluten because I have pretty bad

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Speaker 2: reactions to it.

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Speaker 4: But I just never have.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm like taking my health more seriously and

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Speaker 2: trying to get into the gluten free world. But holy

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Speaker 2: fucking shit, it is a intense little mini group of people.

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Speaker 4: Out here that are living gluten free.

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Speaker 1: Low oh. People are serious their hatred of gluten. Man. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean you have actual Celiac disease in your family,

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Speaker 1: so that's understandable. I do know people who say that

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Speaker 1: they're allergic to gluten and they aren't because I see

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Speaker 1: the meat gluten and be fine when they want to. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just I don't want to become one of those

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Speaker 2: people because I feel like I just had a friend

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Speaker 2: who cut it out and then like she accidentally had

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Speaker 2: a piece of pizza and then the next day they're

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Speaker 2: just like it feels like knives are like running through

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Speaker 2: my body, and oh my god, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: cut out any of the shit out of like that's

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Speaker 2: the reaction of having one mistake bite. But you know what,

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Speaker 2: maybe people really get that sick by it, and I

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Speaker 2: need to take it into consideration.

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Speaker 1: Maybe. However, we also know that the placebo effect is strong,

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Speaker 1: so if you're expecting it to feel like knives in

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Speaker 1: your stomach, there's a solid chance that it.

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Speaker 4: Might regardless on fun Lola, No.

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Speaker 1: I know, listen thinking about the placebo effects a lot. Okay,

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Speaker 1: fucking antidepressants. I can't tell what's the antidepressants And what's

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Speaker 1: my stress about the antidepressants is that this week? It's

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Speaker 1: not it's not because that was my culty is thing

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Speaker 1: like two weeks ago. I'm pretty sure, shit, I forgot

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Speaker 1: that damn no michaeltast thing this week. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: real quick, it's okay to not eat gluten. It's perfectly fine.

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Speaker 1: There is nothing wrong with not eating gluten. There are

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Speaker 1: just people who are really militant about it when they

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to be, and I just find that

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Speaker 1: very irritating. But that's the extent of my rant on that. Okay, great, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Michaelt's thing is just that I am looking at the

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Speaker 1: stories about how R Kelly is finally going on trial

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Speaker 1: this week for the like abusive essentially harem that he

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Speaker 1: was holding in his home or homes, which people are

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Speaker 1: referring to as a sex cult. Did you watch the

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Speaker 1: docuseries on that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, a little bit. It was kind of hard to

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Speaker 4: get into. Did you find that.

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Speaker 1: I did not find that I was transfixed Surviving r Kelly? Right, yeah, no, no, No,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that one. Sorry, this isn't the one I watched.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, Surviving r Kelly is an amazing documentary series.

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Speaker 1: It's very fucking harrowing. So yeah, trigger warning, we're about

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Speaker 1: to talk about this. Also, side note, we talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about suicide in this episode, so you know,

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Speaker 1: things to know r Kelly. I remember, like in high

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Speaker 1: school or whatever whatever the era was, people were like

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Speaker 1: joking about the pe tape, right, it was like a joke.

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Speaker 1: People thought it was funny that R Kelly was found

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Speaker 1: in this video peeing on a teenager. Yes, and then

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Speaker 1: once you learned the whole story in all of the

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Speaker 1: girls that he was abusing and like holding captive essentially

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Speaker 1: in his home and had completely brainwashed. He is so upsetting.

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Speaker 1: It's so so upsetting. I'm so glad that he's finally

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Speaker 1: going to trial for it. There are how many women,

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Speaker 1: I think twenty two women who are all testifying, and

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Speaker 1: he had child pornography charges and right, okay, so it

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Speaker 1: was a fourteen year old girl that he urinated on

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Speaker 1: and he was charged for that, but nobody testified during

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Speaker 1: the trial and he wasn't found guilty. But now it's

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Speaker 1: like there are so many people who've come forward who

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Speaker 1: were teenagers when he like put them in his home

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Speaker 1: and told them they couldn't leave and controlled absolutely everything

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Speaker 1: about their lives and they were essentially his like little

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Speaker 1: sex slaves. And it's just like absolutely horrific. I can't

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Speaker 1: wait for this motherfucker to be held accountable. I hope he,

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Speaker 1: I mean hopefully he will be. Yeah. I don't have

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Speaker 1: a whole lot else to say about it other than

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Speaker 1: I look forward to seeing what happens and I hope

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Speaker 1: that justice is served. It seems like, you know, with

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Speaker 1: Nexium and with Harvey Weinstein and with Jeffrey Epstein, there's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of these predators are finally seeing some justice,

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Speaker 1: but you know, fingers.

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Speaker 4: Crossed the Bill Cosby's just walking away, So.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's horrible. Anyway, I really want to interview one

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Speaker 1: of his victims because I feel like, just I don't know,

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Speaker 1: there's there are so many interesting parallels between just like

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Speaker 1: a regular abusive relationship and a cult obviously, and like

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Speaker 1: those stories are really straddling that line in a way

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Speaker 1: that I think would be really enlightening. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know if anyone knows any one who would want to

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Speaker 1: come on hit us up. All right, but for now

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the very pretty, very charismatic,

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Speaker 1: very questionable Teal Swan. So should we get into it.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it, all right, Welcome Catherine to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I found you because I found your blog,

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Speaker 1: which talks all about Teale Swan. Would you describe yourself

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Speaker 1: as a follower, like, how would you describe that relationship?

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Speaker 5: I would definitely say that I was a follower. I

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Speaker 5: never met her in person, I never went to any workshop,

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Speaker 5: so I wasn't as sort of embedded in the community

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Speaker 5: as a lot of people were. But if I had

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Speaker 5: had the opportunity, and if I had you know, the

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Speaker 5: money to travel and go to those workshops.

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Speaker 3: I definitely would have. How much I watched every video?

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Speaker 3: I don't remember. It's been a while.

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Speaker 5: I want to say a couple hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember exactly though, so don't quote me up.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it depends on how in depth it is,

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Speaker 1: because I went to one with a couple friends that

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Speaker 1: we were going to do for an episode and then

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Speaker 1: I lost that audio like an idiot. But I feel

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Speaker 1: like the tickets for that were like thirty or forty

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Speaker 1: dollars or something. But that was like so just like

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Speaker 1: two hours, Like you probably don't get to talk to her,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was not like a full on thing.

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Speaker 4: Yep, okay, is.

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Speaker 5: She still doing those like synchronization workshops? She like picks

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Speaker 5: the person whose energy supposedly.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's what it was. Yeah, this was pre pandemic obviously,

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Speaker 1: so who knows what's happening now? Yeah, and so many

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Speaker 1: people were there, it was crazy. So tell us, please,

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Speaker 1: how did you first find her? What were you drawn

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Speaker 1: to about the things she was saying?

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Speaker 5: I found her on YouTube, like I think most people do.

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Speaker 3: I was very lost.

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Speaker 5: Looking back, I realized, like I had just graduated high school.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

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Speaker 5: I was in like community college and just kind of

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Speaker 5: like not sure what the next steps were. Like I

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Speaker 5: didn't think I could succeed on any sort of more

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Speaker 5: conventional path, Like I just like didn't have the confidence.

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Speaker 5: And I feel like spirituality sort of felt like a

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Speaker 5: weird kind of safety net where it was like those

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Speaker 5: like worldly things, I don't have to be good at

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Speaker 5: them because I can just get enlightened instead or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So I really got obsessed with.

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Speaker 5: Like pretty much everything in that world of like spirituality,

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Speaker 5: that kind of the New Age. I eventually became a

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Speaker 5: religious studies major. That is what I ended up getting

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Speaker 5: my WHOA, oh yeah, it was really interested in like

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Speaker 5: Pinduism and Buddhism and various other traditions.

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Speaker 1: So when you discovered her, had you already been studying

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Speaker 1: these things.

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Speaker 5: I had just started like to read a lot about

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Speaker 5: it and watch a lot of videos and things about

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Speaker 5: spiritual topics, So it was new at that point. I

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Speaker 5: remember seeing her first video that I watched of hers

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Speaker 5: under YouTube channel and thinking that there was something off

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Speaker 5: and like maybe it's this is just like kind of

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Speaker 5: a silly like kindsight is twenty twenty thing, right, projective

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Speaker 5: amount in my pastself. But like I remember being like, oh,

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Speaker 5: something feels off about her, like just kind of like

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Speaker 5: the way there's some sort of like tightness in her voice,

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Speaker 5: Like it feels like there's a lot of like tension

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Speaker 5: in the way that she speaks. And I remember thinking, like,

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Speaker 5: there's something strange about this person. I literally wanted to

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Speaker 5: like reach enlightenment at that time, Like that's how deep.

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Speaker 3: I was an whole thing.

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Speaker 5: And I remember thinking like, I don't think this person

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Speaker 5: is actually like self actualized, So I don't know if

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Speaker 5: they're like someone that I want to be, like my

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Speaker 5: actual teacher. Not that I don't believe in that anymore,

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Speaker 5: but it's not something that I think about anymore. And

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Speaker 5: I look back and I like, that's like, yeah, I remember

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Speaker 5: getting weird vibe. But I think what kept drawing me

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Speaker 5: back is just how accessible it was. Like I wasn't

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Speaker 5: really sure about how to go about finding like an

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Speaker 5: in person spiritual community. I was really intimidated at the

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Speaker 5: prospect of like going and like meeting like actual gurus

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Speaker 5: in real life, Like that's really scary to me, And

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Speaker 5: I had some like social anxiety and stuff, and like

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Speaker 5: I still lived with my parents who were kind of strict,

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Speaker 5: and it was just hard for me to like go

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Speaker 5: out and do shit. And so I think part of

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Speaker 5: the convenience of like Teel and why I kept getting

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Speaker 5: drawn back to her was that like every single week

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Speaker 5: there would be a video coming out she told all

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Speaker 5: these interviews, and all of them were really long. Like

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Speaker 5: every time she'd come out with an interview, I just

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Speaker 5: sit there and watch the whole thing and just be

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Speaker 5: like totally engrossed by it. And eventually enough of that

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Speaker 5: just kind of like going back because it was there, Suldy,

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Speaker 5: Like she eventually became like my main spiritual teacher, if

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Speaker 5: you could even call it that sort of a relationship.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, it was kind of the most significant teacher

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Speaker 5: figure I had in my life until the point that.

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Speaker 3: I realized that she had like plagiarized and lied.

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Speaker 5: About a number of things probably, and then I kind

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Speaker 5: of got disillusioned with spirituality altogether.

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Speaker 1: Wow, It's so interesting because like most of the people

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Speaker 1: that we talked to were indoctrinated in person in some

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Speaker 1: way other than like maybe the former QAnon person that

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Speaker 1: we had this process of coming to believe in someone

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Speaker 1: just like by sheer force of content, just like the algorithm,

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Speaker 1: just like feeding more of that person's content is really

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Speaker 1: really interesting to me. And also the fact that your

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Speaker 1: instinct was I mean, and yeah, sure maybe memories affecting

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Speaker 1: it a little bit, but like you remember that feeling

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Speaker 1: of like this is kind of off, but once you're

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Speaker 1: just like repeatedly exposed to something, those guards kind of

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Speaker 1: come down. I just I don't know, I think that's

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Speaker 1: super interesting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I wonder how many other people have like similar experiences,

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Speaker 5: because I think I noticed a lot in her in

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Speaker 5: her group Teel tribe, Like I think a lot of

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Speaker 5: people felt like that really was like their community and

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Speaker 5: like their family, Like people would kind of use those

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Speaker 5: faces a lot, like we need to like find our

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Speaker 5: spiritual family and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I think a lot of.

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Speaker 5: People in that group maybe like didn't have other strong connections.

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Speaker 5: And I think I bet like a lot of people

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Speaker 5: were similar to me, where they were kind of like

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Speaker 5: either just because of their circumstances, couldn't go out and

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Speaker 5: find like real life community or like we're dealing with

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Speaker 5: anxiety or like mental health stuff that prevented them from.

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Speaker 3: Like making those connections. Yeah, so I really wonder the

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Speaker 3: internet is weird.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and Meghan and I have talked about this.

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Speaker 1: She seems to be doing really well on TikTok and

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Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder if like the pandemic is

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Speaker 1: related to that, because people are you know, they've been

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Speaker 1: locked in their houses. They have no way of connecting

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Speaker 1: with others. I mean, granted, there are people still going out,

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Speaker 1: but for a lot of us, you know, even isolated

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Speaker 1: for a really long time, and people are just for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, you know, finding her very pealing. She's resonating

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Speaker 1: on TikTok despite the fact that there's an entire podcast

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Speaker 1: about her. Is it called The Gateway Podcast?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: The Gateway. So let's back up a little bit. So,

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Speaker 1: can you just describe for someone who doesn't know who

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Speaker 1: Teal Swan is? Can you just like give us the

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Speaker 1: basic overview.

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Speaker 5: I'm sorry if this answer is like all over the place,

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Speaker 5: because I feel like she's sort of rebranded a few times,

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Speaker 5: like since the time.

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Speaker 3: I followed her, I would call her a spiritual self

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Speaker 3: help guru.

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Speaker 5: Okay, and author, like she's the reason why I'm confused

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Speaker 5: on how to answer this succicktly is because like when

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Speaker 5: I was following her, she was she was talking about

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Speaker 5: aliens all the time.

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Speaker 3: Like she was really out there.

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Speaker 5: She was like, I'm an arcteryan soul fork like everything,

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Speaker 5: Like I'm so psychic that I can like see your

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Speaker 5: thoughts like visually, and like she like had these old

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Speaker 5: blog posts and stuff where she'd say, like I'm a

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Speaker 5: medical intuitive, like I sometimes do work in like hospital

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Speaker 5: settings and stuff people are sick, like citations needed. I

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Speaker 5: wonder if that's wasn't just a lie, But she would

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Speaker 5: say that the reason why she was doing that work

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Speaker 5: was because she could see inside of people and like

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Speaker 5: see like what's wrong in their bodies and stuff. And

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Speaker 5: since then, I think she's gotten a lot of pushback

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Speaker 5: and realize that that isn't so friendly to like the

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Speaker 5: mainstream audience that she's been going for.

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Speaker 3: And so she's changed a lot.

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Speaker 5: And I haven't been keeping super close tracks what she's

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Speaker 5: been doing lately, but it seems like she's sort of

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Speaker 5: shifted into more of a self help kind of area,

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Speaker 5: just like kind of giving people tips on like you know,

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Speaker 5: how to love yourself, like that one book she came

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Speaker 5: out with and like kind of a little bit less woo.

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Speaker 1: Well, when I went to that workshop, she did pick

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Speaker 1: people from the audience based on their energies that she

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Speaker 1: allegedly could see, so at least in twenty nineteen, that

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Speaker 1: was still a thing. And then she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: claiming to know more about them than they knew about themselves,

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Speaker 1: which is not a red flag at all. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've mentioned this before. But her backstory, so

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Speaker 1: she claims that she has had psychic powers since she

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Speaker 1: was a kid, and she suffered from satanic ritual abuse,

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Speaker 1: including being sewn into a human corpse like fucking Luke

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Speaker 1: from Star Wars and the watch McAll it for hours,

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Speaker 1: which is a pretty preposterous claim as an.

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Speaker 3: Eight year old child too, like an eight year old? Wow,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how.

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Speaker 1: I mean, could I fit an eight year old in

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Speaker 1: my body? I don't think so. Like you open, you

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Speaker 1: have to be pretty big. And the person who kind

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Speaker 1: of massaged these memories out of her and correct me

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Speaker 1: if I have this wrong, But is a woman named

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Speaker 1: Barbara Snow? Is that right?

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Speaker 5: So I know that she saw Barbara Snow. I don't

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Speaker 5: know how much of like that backstory comes from you know, sessions.

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Speaker 3: That they had together.

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Speaker 5: I remember her saying things like that she was like

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Speaker 5: the best therapist that she ever had or something like that.

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Speaker 5: Or I think her a former follower, maybe named Cameron,

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Speaker 5: who was part of her community for a while, may

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Speaker 5: have said that. I don't know if I got that

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Speaker 5: directly from Teal, but she definitely saw Barbara Snow, who

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Speaker 5: was involved in the Satanic Panic in I think the nineties.

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Speaker 5: I actually stumbled upon a blog this was years ago

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Speaker 5: when I was like first kind of digging all of

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Speaker 5: this up, but by another former creation of Barber Snow,

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Speaker 5: and it was about how like these supposed recovered memories

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Speaker 5: of abuse had like tourned their family apart. So I

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Speaker 5: think a lot of people have been affected by that.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to clarify to anyone who hasn't heard

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Speaker 1: me rants about this before, or we talk about it

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Speaker 1: a lot on our episode with Lucian Greeves from the

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Speaker 1: Satanic Temple. There was the Satanic Panic in the eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties, and there's this whole thing called recovered memory.

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Speaker 1: Recovered memory is not really a thing. There's no evidence

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Speaker 1: to support it. You can forget a memory because you

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Speaker 1: know you're dissociating or you don't want to think about

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Speaker 1: it for a long time. But to just completely suppress

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Speaker 1: a memory and then recover it via hypnosis is not

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Speaker 1: actually a thing, and it's very dangerous to see therapists

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Speaker 1: who do this because what can happen is the power

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Speaker 1: suggestion is very strong, especially if you're in a vulnerable

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Speaker 1: state or if you you know, are particularly suggestible if

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Speaker 1: you're under hypnosis, whatever, if they ask you leading questions,

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Speaker 1: like one of these types of therapists which I say

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Speaker 1: in quotes, might do that can easily create a memory

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Speaker 1: because every time we remember something, we are actually reconstructing it.

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Speaker 1: Memory is not like this hard drive you have like

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Speaker 1: all stored up and you just pull it out. Like

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Speaker 1: every time you think about something, you're constructing it for

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Speaker 1: the first time. So basically you can create memories that

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Speaker 1: never existed. And this has led to families being torn

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Speaker 1: apart because parents are being accused of doing these like

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Speaker 1: really ridiculous over the top like satanic rituals. The whole

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Speaker 1: thing is wild and really upsetting, and I actually was

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Speaker 1: really bummed. This is a side note, but like a

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Speaker 1: therapist that I see, I was like looking for an

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Speaker 1: emd R therapist, and he did refer to one woman

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Speaker 1: who I did not end up seeing, but I saw

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Speaker 1: that on her page said she specializes in ritualistic abuse,

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Speaker 1: and she's a part of that organization that Lucian Greaves

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Speaker 1: talked about. It's like SSID or something very dangerous group

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Speaker 1: of like alleged therapists who are recovering memories for people

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Speaker 1: left and right. Anyway, that's my tangent. So basically Teal

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Speaker 1: did see this woman, and this woman also there was

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Speaker 1: like she was under investigation for imposing false memories on

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Speaker 1: people about abuse that there was, you know, basically no

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Speaker 1: evidence for and rant. But yeah, so that's just like

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Speaker 1: some context for people. I find that the intersection of

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Speaker 1: Teal and barbera snow type really interesting because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: this woman seems like she's pretty predatory, and then Teal

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Speaker 1: then goes on to kind of become her own version

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Speaker 1: of that in a different way. Do you like have

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Speaker 1: any that or any information That.

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Speaker 3: Is a really interesting point.

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Speaker 5: I hadn't really thought about it that way before, but yeah,

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Speaker 5: that is so strange. I just remember watching she did

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Speaker 5: an interview for some local I think Idaho News Channel,

401
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Speaker 5: Did you guys happen to know?

402
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Speaker 4: That's too funny? Imagine those people waking up.

403
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Speaker 5: But it wasn't even about her like spiritual teaching. It

404
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 5: was about the Satanic cult, like they interviewed her like

405
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Speaker 5: and she was really a victim, and it was fairly recent.

406
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Speaker 5: It was like maybe twenty fifteen or something that that. Wow,

407
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Speaker 5: and it's wild because she goes into a lot of

408
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Speaker 5: depth that's like very triggering if you watch it, just

409
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Speaker 5: to warn anybody who like might look it up. She

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Speaker 5: goes into a very disturbing amount of depth. It's very

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Speaker 5: graphic on like the abuse that she supposedly witnessed. And

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Speaker 5: there's a part at the end where she starts to cry,

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Speaker 5: but her cheeks are dry, like I swear to God,

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Speaker 5: Like she's like she's like wiping her cheeks and there's

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Speaker 5: nothing there. And she's talking about like witnessing child sacrifices

416
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Speaker 5: and stuff like that, and there's like nothing. Oh wow, Yeah,

417
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 5: it's really interesting if you if you get a chance

418
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Speaker 5: to watch that or at least like skip around and

419
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Speaker 5: watch some like some parts of it.

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Speaker 3: It's really fascinating. I don't really know why they did that.

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Speaker 5: I guess I can talk about my own like personal

422
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Speaker 5: experience of sort of unpacking that.

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Speaker 3: The whole aspect of her and like.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of people and she she says

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Speaker 5: this too in her teachings.

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Speaker 3: She'll be like, I.

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Speaker 5: Tell this story because if I can make it through

428
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Speaker 5: and like integrate this trauma and be okay, like anybody can,

429
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Speaker 5: because what I've been through is like so so terrible.

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Speaker 5: I think she's even compared it to like survivors of

431
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Speaker 5: the Holocaust, which is really disgusting, like knowing what I

432
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Speaker 5: know now, like she'll be like, yeah, what I experienced

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Speaker 5: was like worse than that. But yeah, she'll say that,

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Speaker 5: and I think that sounds like really amazing to a

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Speaker 5: lot of people who have been through some difficult things.

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Speaker 5: They'll be like, oh, yeah, this person is because spiritual teacher.

437
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 3: Now, like that means I can.

438
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 5: And so I think I kind of related to that

439
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 5: in a way, or like at least, you know, felt

440
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 5: drawn in by that because I was like, Wow, this

441
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 5: is someone who's very strong, and I want to be

442
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 5: more like that if I follow her advice and probably

443
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 5: get my shit together faster. Also, yeah, I don't know,

444
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 5: it's really really uncomfortable to question the narrative that she tells,

445
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 5: even like just how over the top some of her

446
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 5: stories are like being sewn into a corpse, that type

447
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 5: of stuff. Like it's kind of like how that no

448
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 5: one would lie about that, you know, it's so hard rap.

449
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 5: It's like you kind of think away, like no one

450
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 5: would ever just make that up. You can't just make

451
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 5: that up, right. I think what happened for me what

452
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 5: started to change my mind about that was I had

453
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 5: learned through the blog called Celestial Reflections by Leven slaven

454
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 5: Is the writer that she had plagiarized a bunch of

455
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 5: her blogs, and I couldn't find an explanation.

456
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 3: I was like, mmmm, that's fucked up.

457
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 5: So that was probably the first time I started to

458
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 5: kind of question things a little more. But the second

459
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 5: thing was that like on that same blog there was

460
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 5: some record of dire her like right hand guy who

461
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 5: like works for her, works with her and everything, and

462
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 5: like has been her best friend since they were kids

463
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 5: or whatever, of him posing as a journalist named Jason

464
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 5: Friedman online and like getting into like arguments with people

465
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 5: in the comments and being like I've studied Satanic Rutuli said,

466
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 5: like talk to people who were in prison for it,

467
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 5: and like like responding to people who kind of expressed

468
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 5: doubt overteal story.

469
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: How did that come out? How did people realize it

470
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 4: was him?

471
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 3: Again, it's been a while since I read it. It's

472
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: many layered.

473
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 5: I know there are these kind of odd websites that

474
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: his articles appeared on. They're not in news sites. You

475
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 5: can just like post journalists and just post their writing there.

476
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 5: I don't know why they exist. It's strange, but the

477
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 5: profile photo is like clearly like it's like a really

478
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 5: small image, but like it's recognizably him. And then like

479
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 5: one of those profiles I think had like a phone

480
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 5: number on it, like a contact number, and I think

481
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 5: one of Levon's readers actually like knew them in person

482
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 5: and recognized his voice when they called the number and

483
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 5: asked if Jason Freeman was there. Oh wow, there's I

484
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 5: remember there being some sort of like pretty tangible proof

485
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 5: that it was him.

486
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: I have to like go back and dig it up.

487
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 5: It's probably at least archived, but I can send it

488
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 5: to you if you want. But there's like these really

489
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: odd comments where you can tell that it's not written

490
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 5: by a journalist because the writing isn't very good first

491
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 5: of all, but also he'll be like trying to be like, oh, yes,

492
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 5: I'm an impartial journalist like covering this thing. And then

493
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 5: he'll be like, tala is an archery and soul fork

494
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: and like, I don't know, Like what she's doing is amazing.

495
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 5: He's healing her trumba. Yeah, exactly. That was the first

496
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 5: time when I was if this were true, why would

497
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 5: they be like telling lies in the comments and like

498
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 5: arguing with people online like in these really outlanguish ways

499
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 5: to prevent anyone from questioning whether it's true or not.

500
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: Right.

501
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, and then since then there's also like a

502
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 5: few people were actually able to identify the man that

503
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 5: she accused of abuse, and they interviewed him, and the

504
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 5: whole thing is kind of interesting and worth reading. But

505
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 5: he showed them a letter that she had written him

506
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 5: when she was I believe twenty, so according to her timeline,

507
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 5: she would have escaped the cult like a year or

508
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 5: two prior.

509
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 3: And it was like it's like I love you, I

510
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: miss you.

511
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 5: It's like very affectionate. It's like she describes what neighborhood

512
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 5: she lives in, and what house, what her house looks

513
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 5: like I remember being in Chield tribe when it came out,

514
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 5: and I can't remember how to extent. We just like

515
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 5: weren't really allowed to talk about it in there because

516
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 5: that would happen.

517
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: Wow.

518
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: Really, But I think a.

519
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 5: Lot of people were like, oh, it's like, you know,

520
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 5: Stockholm syndrome, Like it's complicated, like she was attached to Yeah,

521
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 5: but it just really doesn't line up with her narrative

522
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 5: of like how it happened, Like she makes it sound

523
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 5: like she escaped and was like hiding.

524
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's complicated, but definitely like it doesn't make any

525
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: sense worth reading them. It's very strange.

526
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: As a general rule, I err on the side of

527
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: believing survivors, right, me too. But when it comes to

528
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: this particular thing of satanic ritual abuse, which is just

529
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: like culturally like wildly, wildly overblown, it's like kind of

530
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: not really a thing, no.

531
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 5: And there's no physical evidence that any any of it

532
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 5: has ever happened. Like, I think it's really interesting that

533
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 5: it's sort of seeing not exactly a resurgence, but I

534
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 5: feel like there's like a new kind of iteration of

535
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 5: it happening now with like the Q and I movement

536
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 5: and all that.

537
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: Like, I think that's very fascinating.

538
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 5: And it's weird because I've actually like tried to talk

539
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 5: to my parents about this and they're like, they don't

540
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 5: believe in QAnon, but they're like on a similar wavelength politically,

541
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 5: and I'll say, like, if I bring up the satanic panic,

542
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 5: like even like my mom has like pushed back on

543
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 5: me talking and she's been like, oh, yeah, they say

544
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 5: that they made a lot of stuff, and I'm like, no, Mom, Like,

545
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 5: oh man, yeah.

546
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: There are so many cases. Again this will be a

547
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: repeat for people who listen to the podcast, but there

548
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: are so many cases of innocent people being put into

549
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: jail because they listened to music that was deemed satanic

550
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: and there was no real evidence, you know, case in

551
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: point the West Memphis three who were exonerated, and anyway,

552
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: there's just like I know someone who's working on another

553
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: documentary where there's a similar thing where there was no

554
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: evidence and this person was put in jail and then

555
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: was exonerated, and it's just like, there really isn't good

556
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: evidence that this stuff happens. Like does that mean that

557
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: someone wasn't like abused in a you know, more standard way.

558
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: And didn't really know how to process that, and so

559
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, generated these other for some reason more manageable

560
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 1: way of looking at it. Maybe that's totally possible. You know,

561
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, like having this recovered memory and

562
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: having been abused our mutually exclusive. But in this case,

563
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so so extreme that it's just seems

564
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: pretty implausible, especially given all of the psychic powers talk.

565
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: But of course this is coming from me. I'm a skeptic,

566
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: so I don't believe in psychic powers. Megan maybe feels differently,

567
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: but it's just not a very plausible story on top

568
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: of all of the other things. Also because I think

569
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: it's offensive to actual cult survivors, Like we talked to

570
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: so many real survivors. We you know, have our own experiences, like, man,

571
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: don't lie about that shit. Here's a question. Do you

572
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: think that she believes it herself?

573
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's the question that like haunts me.

574
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 5: No, yeah, I don't know, Like the fake crying thing, really,

575
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 5: I don't know how to make sense of that, Like, yeah,

576
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 5: it's too confusing to think about. Maybe sometimes yeah.

577
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: Maybe all the time. But the weird thing is that

578
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 3: it's clear that she.

579
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 5: Will like lie and manipulate when things kind of aren't

580
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 5: going her way.

581
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: Like with the plagiarism stuff.

582
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 5: I remember being in Teel Tribe when that was shared there.

583
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 5: She said something like, Oh, this group isn't like a

584
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 5: safe space for me anymore. Basically it was like I'm

585
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: emotionally unsafe here, and like it got deleted.

586
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: It's just is wild because it's.

587
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 5: Like you're confronted with your own like mistake, which I

588
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 5: was interpreting it really charitably at that point, and I

589
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 5: was like, Oh, this is just a mistake.

590
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: Somehow nobody taught her, you.

591
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 5: Know, like how to not plagiarize or something. She didn't

592
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 5: pay attention in school, I guess, but like yeah, I

593
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 5: don't know, and I just kind of watched her like

594
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 5: kind of try to like weasele her way out of

595
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: it by like playing the victim, and the whole group

596
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 5: was like, oh, I'm sorry to you, including like I

597
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: don't know that it's like intentional or like calculated, but

598
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 5: like she knows that, like there's a mistakes.

599
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: She was just like refuses to be accountable for.

600
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: You know, Like so if somebody does try to hold

601
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: her accountable, I'm assuming they're just kicked out immediately.

602
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: That's what happened to me. Yeah.

603
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 1: Wow.

604
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 5: I had already decided that I didn't trust her anymore

605
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 5: at that point, and so I was trying to be

606
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 5: like diplomatic and I posted some concerns about the false

607
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 5: memory recovery stuff. I was trying to be like as

608
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 5: fair as possible. It wasn't completely genuine because I definitely

609
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 5: had decided that she was harmful at that point.

610
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: And like shouldn't be doing what she was doing.

611
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: Real quick, the false memory stuff in terms of her

612
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: recovering them for other people, right.

613
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 5: Not even directly recovering them for other people, because I've

614
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 5: only heard rumors of that happening.

615
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: Okay, So her.

616
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 5: Book, the Completion Process, that's the process that I'm kind.

617
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: Of referring to.

618
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 5: She also had like one video which I think became

619
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 5: the basis for that book, video on YouTube that was

620
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 5: called I Think how to Heal the Emotional Body, and

621
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 5: it takes you through the process basically of recovering memories

622
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 5: like oh wow, on like a twenty minute YouTube video.

623
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 5: So it's like, here's how you can do this yourself.

624
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: Wow, pert, Yeah, that is so dangerous.

625
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 5: Yes, And that became the basis for what she calls

626
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 5: the completion process, and then she has you know, like

627
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: people that she trains to be facilitators of the completion process.

628
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: So I had heard about some people in the community

629
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 5: who were like uncovering like very extensive memories of abuse

630
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 5: that they did not have before, like spanning their entire life.

631
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: There's one person in particular.

632
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 5: Who I remember seeing on stage at one of Teal's

633
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 5: workshops and Teal telling her, what if I told you

634
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 5: your childhood was like way worse than you think it is,

635
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 5: Oh no, and that yeah, and that person going on

636
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 5: to recover memories from like infancy.

637
00:32:59,400 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: To like she was.

638
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 5: She was posting a lot about it, and Teal type

639
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 5: and it was really really concerning, and.

640
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: She was like obviously going through some stuff.

641
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 5: And like, yeah, she was recovering memories from when she

642
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 5: was like a baby through like her teen years, all

643
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 5: of like sexual abuse by like many, many, many people,

644
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 5: and it just seemed like just really sad. I don't know,

645
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 5: And again, like I'm sure this person went through some

646
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 5: like very horrible things or like had some sort of

647
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 5: like trauma or something to like, So I'm not discounting

648
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 5: that at all, but I think that like following deal

649
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 5: and like following that process obviously like harmed her.

650
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, because recovered memories of trauma function the same

651
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: as actual memories of trauma, So you're generating trauma that

652
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: didn't exist before, or like compounding trauma that did exist,

653
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 1: you know.

654
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like you're just making the case for manifestation.

655
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: Just kidding, Hang on, if you just think memories that

656
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: are great, then you'll think that they're real and then

657
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: you'll be able to make more of them.

658
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 3: Whatever.

659
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: Isn't that kind of what EMDR is. I don't know

660
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: at them? Yeah, okay, so you start having concerns about

661
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: that being dangerous and you post about it. What happened?

662
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 3: I posted about it? This was what was interesting.

663
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 5: Most of the people responding to me, like most of

664
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 5: Teal's followers who responded, were like, oh, thank you for this.

665
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 5: This is very thoughtful, like really interesting to think about.

666
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 5: I don't remember specifically, like what little side conversations I

667
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 5: got into about it with people, but people weren't super defensive.

668
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 5: But Teal responded the following day. I think immediately it

669
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 5: was like very very defensive, told me I was I

670
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 5: forget exactly wherew she phrased it, but she said something

671
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 5: like this, this way of thinking like protects.

672
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: Abusers h oh Man.

673
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 5: And then as I was typing response, like the thread

674
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 5: went down, got to lead it wow. And then I

675
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 5: think I got blocked or banned from the group altogether.

676
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 5: I don't think I left on my own. I think

677
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 5: her then husband al a like banned me from the.

678
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: Group wow, just immediately, yeah, just for like as soon

679
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: as wow, because.

680
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 3: It was up for a few hours. I don't think

681
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: I got any negative comments.

682
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 5: It was a while ago, so maybe I did, but

683
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 5: it was pretty much like productive and healthy and okay,

684
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 5: like good interactions. But then as soon as Teal started

685
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 5: to reply, it was like minutes before it was like

686
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 5: taken down and I was out of there.

687
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the same story, but

688
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: is this the thing where she like responded, the person

689
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 2: who made this video is one of my dearest friends,

690
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: and then immediately afterwards said something about like the person

691
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: who made this video as a hater.

692
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I remember what you're talking about. Vaguely.

693
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 5: Was that like that had something to do with the

694
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 5: Michael Brown's presence process? I think yeah, it was like

695
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 5: she also like play drives from him crazy.

696
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, oh, I was just writing about that. Let's

697
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: talk about that for a second, because I think on

698
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: your blog you go into pretty extensive depth on the

699
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: parts that were plagiarized from his book. She's using like

700
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: the same language, the same phrases, the same words, the

701
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: same process as like, how extensive is it? Like how

702
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: much research did you do?

703
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 5: I wrote that a long time ago, so I'm sorry

704
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 5: if this is not a clear answer. I remember, I'm

705
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 5: not the one who made the connection. I believe her

706
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 5: ex husband brought it to my attention or someone who

707
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 5: had talked to him about it, and then I got

708
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 5: curious and started digging into it. What was really striking,

709
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 5: I think, and I think this is right at the

710
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 5: top of that blog post, is that as soon as

711
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 5: I went on Michael Brown's website, this like little catchphrase

712
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 5: that Teal also used in a meme was like right there,

713
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 5: and I was like, oh my god, I think it

714
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 5: was the one. Oh, there are a few little like

715
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 5: wordplay things he does in the book that she's kind

716
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 5: of like copied, but it was this very distinctive, kind

717
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 5: of like funny, little like wordplay phrase that she had

718
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 5: like just flopped on a meme and also published Wow.

719
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 5: I was like I recognized that, and it was just

720
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 5: like right on the top of his website. And then yeah,

721
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 5: I think something that's tricky about this is that, like

722
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 5: so many of the people who have come forward have

723
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 5: since like either like deleted their blogs or like gone

724
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 5: quiet again or like don't want to.

725
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 3: Be like in the spotlight.

726
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 5: But yeah, I do remember, without naming names or anything,

727
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 5: that like her ex husband had mentioned that she would

728
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 5: like listen to the audio book a lot and was

729
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 5: like like how to copy the book and was like

730
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 5: taking notes in.

731
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: It and stuff.

732
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 5: I never made my way through the entire book, but

733
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 5: I kind of just skimmed it enough and like kind

734
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 5: of searched for like phrases and things that kind of

735
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 5: like rang bells for me, right, But it was a

736
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 5: lot kind of all the major themes are there. The

737
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: funny thing is that the memory recovery piece, from what

738
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 5: I remember, I should have gone back and read this

739
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 5: before I talked to you guys, but I don't think

740
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 5: the memory recovery pieces in there.

741
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 3: I think she basically.

742
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 5: Took the prisons process and like plopped on like a

743
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 5: really bad thing at the end. Like the kind of

744
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: what I leaned from doing that was that, Like her

745
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 5: addition was like and then like have the memory of

746
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 5: like being in a Satanic cult or something at the end.

747
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 4: Wow, Yeah, that's a step.

748
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

749
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: I mean like, I feel like all of the internet

750
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: gurus are essentially just repackaging and repurposing age old spiritual wisdom,

751
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: which is why I asked, like how far you'd gotten

752
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: into the study of Buddhism and stuff, because the idea

753
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: of like accepting your feelings instead of fighting them like

754
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: that is a pretty ancient concept. A lot of these

755
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: people on the Internet who are touting themselves as some

756
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 1: kind of authority are just kind of saying the same things.

757
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: So like, on the one hand, it's like, well, everybody's

758
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: saying a lot of the same things and making it

759
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: look like it's some revelatory But then when you're literally

760
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: using these same phrases and language, it's so hard because

761
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: you want to say, like, well, if somebody's helped by that,

762
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: does it matter. But ultimately, like if somebody is being

763
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: dishonest and not being responsible for when there are consequences

764
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: for the things that they're teaching that are harmful then

765
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: it does matter.

766
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember like kind of being more in that

767
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 5: mindset that I was in during that phase of my life,

768
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 5: and I was so kind of like tending towards like

769
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 5: magical thinking at the time that when I would hear

770
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 5: people like repeat similar ideas, I would be like, oh

771
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 5: my god, I'd be like, oh my god, that's so cool.

772
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 5: It's a universal truth because these multiple people said it.

773
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 5: That's like that's where I was at.

774
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I feel like I should paint a picture

775
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: of Teal sideo. I should have done this at the beginning.

776
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: Teal is like this very pretty white woman with long

777
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: hair who wears these like flowy dresses. And you know,

778
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: she's one of these people who has that like authoritativeness

779
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: in their voice. She's telling you about what she knows.

780
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: She's doing it with such a knowing tone. It's the

781
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: same thing that every cult leader or many religious leaders,

782
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: or many politicians have. It's just that like charismatic like

783
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: feeling of authority.

784
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, she says everything like duh.

785
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: I remember watching a video over once and she's like,

786
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: and that's when I knew I was an alien. It's

787
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: just like so, and that's when you're like, okay, well sure, yeah, And.

788
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: I feel like we should also mention that she did

789
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: have a like person who saw her who committed suicide. Yes,

790
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: can you talk about that a little bit.

791
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was way before I was involved, or before

792
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 5: I knew who she was.

793
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: I don't know if I can eloquently speak on this.

794
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 5: Because it's also been a long time since since I

795
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 5: kind of thought about the timeline. But yeah, the Gateway

796
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 5: would be the best resource to learn about that situation,

797
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 5: I think, because they get into.

798
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 3: A lot of depth about it. But yeah, she was.

799
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 5: This woman named Leslie was one of her clients, and

800
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 5: so was her husband, John I believe was his name.

801
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 5: They were both kind of seeing her privately for like sessions,

802
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 5: and Leslie was struggling a lot with depression and she

803
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 5: ended up taking her own life. And the main thing

804
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 5: I remember about what Teal said that her involvement in

805
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 5: the situation was was that she talked about this on

806
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 5: stage at one of her workshops years ago, and she

807
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 5: said something like, some people are alive, but they're not

808
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 5: fully committed to life. You have to either commit or

809
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 5: not commit. She framed it in a really fucked up

810
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 5: way where she was like, yeah, none of the advice

811
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 5: that I was giving this person was working. She like

812
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 5: wasn't able to enact any of my advice and like

813
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 5: make the changes that I was telling her to make,

814
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 5: And so I had to tell her, like, you need

815
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 5: to like commit to living or not living. Sorry for

816
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 5: laughing at that moment. It was a nervous laugh, guy. Yeah, yeah,

817
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 5: very to resit. But she just like very matter of

818
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 5: factly got off and just like just said that, Wow.

819
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, not so subtle victim blaming there.

820
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 5: I tried my best, and like she couldn't do the work.

821
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 5: And I'm not saying Mike Teal literally drove this woman

822
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 5: to suicide, but the way that she talked about it,

823
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 5: she's kind of conveying there that she thinks she made

824
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 5: the right choice, and I think that's very fucked up.

825
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

826
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like she holds death very lightly and loosely,

827
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 2: and it is just like it's not a big deal,

828
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: Like if it happens, you'll just come right back and

829
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: you can try again. And I've heard her use that

830
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: to make the case against suicide, like if you kill yourself,

831
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: you're just going to come right back. And the same

832
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: circumstances are with the same lessons to learn, but as

833
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: a danger concept to give really depressed people.

834
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, like here's my REDEO.

835
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I went to the workshop with my friend,

836
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: and maybe I've mentioned this before, there was a woman

837
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: who had just come out of a very harrowing Buddhist

838
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: cult and she felt trapped, She feels she was isolated,

839
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: she was completely depressed. You know, it was a very

840
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: manipulative dynamic. It was a very high control group, and

841
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: she came to Teal's workshop. Teal picked her out of

842
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 1: the audience. This woman came on stage and Teal's advice

843
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: was basically, you need to get out of that situation

844
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: and follow me. Like, I wish I could remember how

845
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: she said it, but it was like, well, they clearly

846
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: don't know what's good for you. But then as she's talking,

847
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: she's presenting herself as the one who does know what's

848
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: good for this woman. This is the thing that happens.

849
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: People come out of one group and they're searching for

850
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: a meeting and they end up in an But it

851
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: was just sad to watch. I'm like, this is someone

852
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: who needs actual help and not this fake psychic guru.

853
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: Bullshit and it's just gonna compound this person's trauma and

854
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just it was such a bummer.

855
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: And then the other thing that I witnessed was that

856
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: like one person came on stage and Teal's advice was

857
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: like fine. It was like something you would tell a friend, right.

858
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't anything like life changing or earth shattering or whatever.

859
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: It was like fine. The person on stage clearly wasn't

860
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: getting out of it what Teal wanted them to get

861
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: out of it. They weren't being like wow, oh my gosh,

862
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: you're right, like a couple of the other people had been,

863
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: and Teal just like kept them on the stage and

864
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: like was not satisfied, and we were like, this is

865
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: going on for so long, like she was supposed to

866
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: go through However, many people, she would not let them

867
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: leave the stage until the person she clearly was like

868
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: seeking the validation of like yes you are my god

869
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: and sant and you have changed my life with this advice.

870
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, I don't know, lots of leading questions,

871
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: very manipulative, very very uncomfortable to watch. That was just

872
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: what I witnessed in person.

873
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really interesting to think about it as sort

874
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 5: of like being four TiAl rather than for the people

875
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 5: she's talking to, Like I think there's a lot of

876
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 5: that going on, like she's clearly getting something out of it,

877
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 5: like yeah, and I would notice that too, where if

878
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 5: she ever gave advice and the other person was like, oh,

879
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 5: I don't quite get it, it would become this whole

880
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 5: like long drawn out thing of her like kind of

881
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 5: using that to be like, oh, you just don't understand yet,

882
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 5: Like we're doing most serious work right now, and it

883
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 5: was really just like her trying to basically like manipulate

884
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 5: the person until like she gets the reaction that she

885
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 5: wants from them, right.

886
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: It's very change.

887
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: I remember that happened too. It's like you don't get it,

888
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: Like there's something wrong with you for not understanding this,

889
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: So let me like throw more wisdom nuggets at you,

890
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: because you're clearly broken if you're not getting this. I

891
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: don't know. It's just like, oh, it reminded me of

892
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: when I took the Scientology IQ test, which didn't have

893
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: objective answers, and it was like just a totally subjective,

894
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: like vague thing.

895
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 5: You know.

896
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: It's like I don't know, man, I just it's a bummer.

897
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really interesting.

898
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

899
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: I also just remembering I think it was a blog

900
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 3: post or something from a while ago where she referred

901
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 3: to her workshops as performances. She was like, I just

902
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: love performing.

903
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

904
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: Yeah a lot in like kind of little ways like that.

905
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:37,479
Speaker 3: Wow.

906
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 5: Funny, She's like, I love being on stage so much.

907
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

908
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: Clearly, if you were talking to a Teal follower right now, like,

909
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:51,959
Speaker 1: what would you want them to know or hear?

910
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: That's a really good question.

911
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 5: I would say, I understand that there's something really comforting

912
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 5: about the idea that's some one might understand you and

913
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 5: your problems better than you.

914
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: But that's not how life works.

915
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 5: And you're gonna be okay, and you're going to gain

916
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 5: the wisdom that you need in your own ways to

917
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 5: figure things out. Nobody else can tell you what to do,

918
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 5: and anyone who says that they have those answers is

919
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 5: probably trying to take your money or gain control over

920
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 5: you in a way that is harmful. Yeah, you don't

921
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 5: need to submit yourself to a hierarchy at all, not

922
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 5: even just in a spiritual context.

923
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 3: But like, you don't need to do what other people

924
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 3: tell you to do, Like yeah.

925
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask what have you learned, But it

926
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: sounds like those are some of the things that you've learned.

927
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: I mean, what was your journey like after leaving?

928
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 3: It was very strange.

929
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 5: I feel like there's sort of a gap of a

930
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 5: couple years where I was just like didn't quite have

931
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 5: like a solid sense of self. Without going into my detail,

932
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 5: I sort of got more into like community organizing and activism,

933
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 5: and that's been really empowering. Like I kind of realized

934
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 5: personally that a part of me wanted to keep like

935
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 5: the spiritual stuff alive.

936
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 3: But I realized that I.

937
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 5: Couldn't discern anymore like what was fake and what was true,

938
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 5: because like it's dealing with things that you can't see

939
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 5: and prove to yourself. And I think, for at least

940
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 5: for a while, maybe I'll go back to it one day,

941
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 5: But at the time, I was just like I need

942
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 5: to deal with things that I can like see and feel.

943
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 4: Just like take it out of abstraction and just live.

944
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

945
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it wasn't really helpful for me to

946
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 5: be like up here in my head like all the

947
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 5: time and in my feelings.

948
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 3: Like, so I realized that like.

949
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 5: I can actually do like material, physical things in my

950
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 5: community that are beneficial and kind of achieve a similar

951
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 5: or even a more maybe more direct result of like

952
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 5: helping people and helping myself.

953
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 3: I guess.

954
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

955
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 5: I always had this like really strong like empathy, and

956
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 5: like part of what was driving me to sort of

957
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 5: like do spiritual practice and things like that was like

958
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 5: I want to resolve like my issues, and I want

959
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 5: everyone else to resolve theirs, and then we can all

960
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 5: be happy and like live in a peaceful world and

961
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 5: like you know the age of Aquarius blah blah blah,

962
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 5: I don't know, like we all need to shift our

963
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 5: consciousness and then everything will be good. And I think

964
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 5: now I'm like, well I can go feed people who.

965
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:26,959
Speaker 3: Need to get fed.

966
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 5: Right. It feels like a more a more direct way

967
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 5: honestly of making me a world better.

968
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: Than Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's a really useful

969
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: antidote to spirituality confusion, Like do something tactile and concrete

970
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: that can directly help people and maybe you don't necessarily

971
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: have to be dealing and who is psychic and who

972
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 1: isn't and who has powers and who doesn't.

973
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 3: You know, I.

974
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 5: Remember believing like I had this idea that sort of

975
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 5: like you could only like do good work in the

976
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 5: world if you're like a certain state of consciousness, like

977
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 5: the most important thing is to like meditate and you know,

978
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 5: raise your vibration. I don't know if that's a phrase

979
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 5: I would have actually used, but you know, there is

980
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 5: this idea that like what's going on internally is like

981
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 5: more important than what's going on externally. And I know

982
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 5: some people, like if other people get out of situations

983
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 5: like that and still want to prioritize like their internal worlds,

984
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 5: and that's very great. And like I realized it just

985
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 5: wasn't working for me anymore, and I like didn't have

986
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 5: any sense of like what was true and what wasn't

987
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 5: and I had to like focus on what was outside

988
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 5: of me. And I'm like much much happier and much

989
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 5: more well adjusted for it.

990
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, Well, thank you so much.

991
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: This is really great. I really appreciate you coming on.

992
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so interesting.

993
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 2: Thank you?

994
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: Who damn alrighty, Yeah, I feel like I maybe know

995
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: the answer to this one. So Megan, Yeah, what do

996
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 1: you think would you join the tel tribe?

997
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 4: It's such a hard one. It's a really really really

998
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 4: really that's a hard one for me.

999
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna have to say maybe strongly, just depending

1000
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: on like what I saw first, what my interaction with

1001
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: it was. Like, if I saw something from her that

1002
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: really spoke to me, maybe it was something she plagiarized

1003
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: uf of somebody else or something like that, and I

1004
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: equated it to her, maybe I'd get sucked in because

1005
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: I do love a lot of the topics that she

1006
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: speaks about, and I believe in a lot of the

1007
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 2: topics that she speaks about. But my experience of listening

1008
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: to them, even before I knew it was Culty, it

1009
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: was like not good.

1010
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: I mean, she strikes me as somebody that you would

1011
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: be into obviously, like if you didn't know all the information.

1012
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean she's just so like cold and odd.

1013
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 2: She's just not like for me. But again, if she

1014
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: was saying something brilliant, I think I could totally get

1015
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 2: an on board, because I do.

1016
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 4: I love that world, so not the Teal Swan world.

1017
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 4: The spiritual world.

1018
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, the spiritual world is that is that what goes

1019
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: to It's.

1020
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 4: The like online spiritual community of people you hate, I

1021
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 4: love it.

1022
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, my friends have been like yo, Teal Swan

1023
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: is coming up on my TikTok a lot, like not

1024
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: in a controversial way, like in a way that people

1025
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: are liking her. And I'm like, wow, have y' all

1026
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 1: not listened to the Gateway? Y'all gotta listen to the Gateway.

1027
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: But she's Yeah, she's interesting. I would love to talk

1028
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: to her and like see how she tries to defend herself.

1029
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: She loves to call anyone who critiques her or tries

1030
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: to hold her accountable haters. She's just that's her catch

1031
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: all termament. And they're all haters, anyone who has anything

1032
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: to say about any of her practices.

1033
00:52:53,520 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: Such mechanism, hater, hater, It's true. All right, Well, thanks

1034
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: so much for listening to you, guys. Do not watch

1035
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 2: till Swan on TikTok, watch us on TikTok, and remember

1036
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1037
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: E never ever trust me. Why