WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The Deepcut Suicides 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:01.680 Fellow conspiracy realist. 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:06.200 Our classic episode for this evening is not suitable for 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:12.000 all audiences. The Princess Royal Barracks deep Cut, more often 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.000 known as the Deep Cut Barracks, was once upon a 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.680 time the headquarters of the British Army's Royal Logistic Corps, 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:24.400 and on paper everything was tickety boom. However, as we 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.000 saw back in twenty twenty, there's a much darker side 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:28.560 to the tail. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.800 So the big question that we're tackling here is could 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.559 there have been foul play for these four people to 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.960 have died? Or a foul play is in did someone 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.040 else kill them? Or is a foul play in that 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.279 they were led to that place where they perhaps took 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:47.960 their own lives. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:50.520 Let's jump right in and find out. 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:55.840 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:00.240 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.280 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.000 production of Iheartrading. 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.360 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:19.640 my name is Noah. 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:20.800 They call me Ben. 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.959 We are joined as always with our super producer Paul 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.399 Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you. You are 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.600 here and that makes this stuff they don't want you 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.040 to know. It's obvious to everybody listening today, whether or 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.520 not you have been in the military, whether or not 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.240 you have a friend or a loved one in the 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:47.480 armed forces, that life in any country's military can be brutal, 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:52.240 and depending on where you enlist. Training itself, just the 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.560 training part, just when you're becoming a soldier, can be 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:01.800 especially taxing. It stretches individuals to their mental and physical limits, 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:07.160 and sometimes it pushes them beyond those limits, with catastrophic 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:13.119 consequences to follow. Today's episode is probably best framed as 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.440 an introduction to a story that many of us in 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.240 the US especially may not know. The reason I'm stressing 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.120 that this is an introduction is because there is so 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.040 much to this rabbit hole. This is a warren of 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.640 rabbit holes. And what we're going to do in this 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.440 episode is the same thing we do with every show. 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.320 We're going to give you the facts, We're going to 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.160 tell you where it gets crazy. But we do want 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.720 you to know that there is much, much, much more 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.720 information out there, and we talked a little bit about 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:55.600 this off air. We consider this an ongoing case. We'll 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:00.000 call it the Deep Cut four. Here are the facts. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.160 This story takes place in London, just outside of London, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.760 actually about an hour and a half drive southwest of 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.000 the City of London, which is a place we've talked 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.240 about before on this show. The city of London exists 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:18.399 within London or Greater London. That's a whole episode in itself, 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:23.120 but specifically we're going to the Deep Cut Barracks. It's 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.680 known as Princess Royal Barracks Deep Cut. It's near Camberley, 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:32.320 Surrey in England, and before nineteen ninety three it was 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.600 also known as Blackdown Barracks. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.760 Yeah, in nineteen hundred the Royal Engineers started to build 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:45.240 several camps around this facility. It had originally been used 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.320 as a training ground up until the late eighteen hundreds, 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:55.000 but it didn't really have any formalized infrastructure until nineteen hundred. 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:00.040 The barracks went through a number of different changes, but 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.600 after the story that we're going to dive in today 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:09.760 took place, they were scheduled to be torn down and 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.080 today you can see these barracks as the home to 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.480 the Royal Logistic Corps Museum, which is a wing of 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.120 the British military and also the Royal Logistics Core banned, 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.360 which is where they're based and rehearse, and the Defense 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.600 Logistics School is also there, and then twenty five training 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.440 support regiments. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:37.040 Back in twenty thirteen, as you would alluded to earlier there, 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.520 the UK government announced official plans to close down the 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.360 operation and to open the land upon which the compound 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.560 stands for future housing developments. As we record right now, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:53.160 the current estimates project the barracks will be completely decommissioned 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.960 and become a thing of the past by twenty twenty one. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.560 That means, of course that anything that any way that 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.520 the physical location could have assisted in the investigation will 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.039 be full stop gone by next year. What do we 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:17.400 mean when we say investigation, So in Deep Cut Barracks 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.600 between nineteen ninety five in two thousand and two, young 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:28.719 trainees began dying under what we would we would like 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.120 the most diplomatic way to put it is mysterious circumstances. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.039 They all died from gunshot wounds and they were all privates, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:42.360 Jeff Gray, Eryl, James Sean Benton, and James Collinson. Their 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.800 deaths were all ruled suicides by the military, despite strong 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:54.120 and continuing objections from friends family members, some government officials, 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:59.200 and numerous experts. We're talking, you know, well journalists as well, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:04.080 but we're also talking pathologists, ballistics experts, coroners and so on. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.440 So as early as two thousand and two, there were 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.480 calls for an inquiry, and then, you know, one of 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.760 the big problems the military was investigating in itself, and 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.400 there were later police investigations along with reviews of army 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:20.720 training procedures. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.360 And then two years later, in two thousand and four, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.760 the government announced that a review of the situation occurring 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:32.120 at Deepcut concluded that the deaths of these four privates 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:38.200 were probably again here we go, probably self inflicted. It's 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.400 a review that you can read right now. It was 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:45.279 conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. It's available online. It's really 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.560 in depth, very very in depth. One thing we found 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.360 in researching this episode is that the numerous inquiries that 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.520 have occurred since the time of these deaths are so 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:02.080 filled with information it becomes a bit difficult to navigate them. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.679 But we assure you that it is worth your time. 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.720 This specific one, performed by Nicholas Blake QC, focused on 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.960 the problems that were occurring within the system itself, the 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.840 organization of the military, and you know, really just the 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.960 situation at deep Cut itself with regards to supervision and 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.720 what the you know, the trainees were doing, how they 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.520 were looked after, and what they had access to. 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.400 And I want to add here I have spent a 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.840 lot of time reading. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.960 Some very you know, very. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.840 Important but very dry reports, and British legal writing is 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.800 a different language. I think we were talking off Aaron 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.440 I was saying, British legal writing warps your mind. But 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.200 the way it would be written in a report like 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.200 this would be something more like an in depth analysis 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.920 of what may accurately be described as the overall linguistic 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.960 approach to the articulation of concepts in the British legal system, 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.960 conducted by ben Bull and PCVA stuff they don't want you, 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.400 no sub committee to iHeartMedia finds that numerous individuals have 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.040 encountered circumstances both deleatorious and circuitous, and they're going forward 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.920 cognitive function a circumstance the trace to that which could 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.360 also be called British legal writing c NX see appendix 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:14.000 for at. 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.320 All like this is this is written? I feel like 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:18.080 this is written. 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.280 You know, I don't want to accuse people of trying 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:27.280 to make it illegible for the average person, but it's 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.400 I think they shot themselves in the foot if they 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:30.560 were going for accuracy. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.840 Well, I mean, we've read contracts, you know, and we 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.160 we have legal documents that come across our inboxes for 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.800 various work things, and they're written pretty pedantic, hard to 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.120 understand language that seems a little pointed at times where 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.079 it's obviously meant to be. That's why you got to 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:47.640 hire a lawyer, because you gotta have someone in the 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.240 club who can like decipher this for the lay person. 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.800 This is entirely some next level of. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:09:00.520 That I would I would categorize that writing as maximum formality. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.320 Yeah, And speaking of maximum formality, I have to say, like, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.280 for part of the research that I did into this topic, 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.880 I watched this great BBC Panorama documentary. They've done covered 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:14.679 a lot of interesting stuff over the years, like they 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.719 did one on scientology that I quite enjoyed, and it's 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.720 just a great series. It's been around for a long time. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.240 But you know, we're talking about one particular barracks. We're 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.360 also talking about the idea of systematic abuse, which is 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.439 obviously very poignant right now with the stuff we're going 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.599 through in our history as a country and as a 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.520 human race. But we're not necessarily trying to damn the 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.040 entire British military here. We are looking at a specific case, 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.640 and the British military will deny that these things are 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.720 systematic and that they do try to root out any 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.600 quote unquote bad actors in the system. But you know, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.440 for anyone who has served in the military, I know 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.040 it can feel when people who have not served in 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.760 the military are criticizing these structures that it can feel 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.400 a little bit like, you know, how we're or you 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.840 get off or something. But I feel like there are 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.680 the researches here, the data is here, maybe not enough 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.480 to apply it to the whole system, but it sure 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.800 makes you think. And I think now's a great time 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.120 to talk about these these deaths. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.520 So let's jump back to that two thousand and four 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.960 review conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. Within it, there are 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.960 a lot of recommendations about what could be done better, perhaps, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.360 but again it's focused squarely on the system itself and 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.200 the way the military is organized. If you look deeply 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.480 into it, it shows that these four deaths which again 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:41.400 the report characterizes as self inflicted or suicide. It does 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.560 say that many have occurred due to a number of 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.800 dangerous contributing factors at specifically Deep Cut barracks. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.839 Yeah, there are things like you'll see these observations, and 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:56.000 then you'll also see if you if you fast forward 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.280 to you know, page three hundred and forty or so, 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.400 you'll see things. You'll see recommendations for how these could 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:08.040 be fixed. The problems, according to the QC's report, QC 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:09.400 stands for Queen's Counsel. 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:10.920 Think of it like a super lawyer. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.960 The problems are things like lack of control over access 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.000 to firearms in the barracks. They were very loose with that, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.920 poor supervision which I think we have specifics on later 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:28.760 in the show, poor accommodation, lack of discipline and prevalent 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:34.160 like Lord of the Fly style bullying, unofficial punishments, sexual 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:39.880 harassment and abuse, running rampant, no real complaint mechanism, which 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.280 is something we see in a lot of organizations, honestly, 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.720 and low quality instructors. The review, as you might imagine, 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.880 did not satisfy the parents and loved ones of these 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:55.319 four dead trainees. So the police conducted for other inquiries, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:01.559 for subsequent investigations. These have never been made public there somewhere, 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.240 unless the evidence was destroyed, which is a possibility, but 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.040 they've never been made public. And these parents believe their 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.319 children did not die from suicide. They believe their children 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.160 were murdered and that the UK government was and is 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:19.680 actively covering it up. So why do they think that 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.320 we'll tell you after we're from our sponsor. 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:30.960 Here's where it gets crazy. 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.479 We mentioned the names here, but let's explore the specific 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.160 details of these deaths, and also these are the four 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.480 known deaths. That doesn't mean there aren't more. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.200 So first we have Jeff Gray, who's from London, seventeen 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.559 years old. He was found dead with two gunshot wounds 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.120 to the head on September seventeenth, two thousand and one. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:57.880 It was officially internally ruled like within the military organization, 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.920 ruled a suicide. Was on guard duty. And this is 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.640 the thing. We talked about this a little bit off air, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.000 and Matt was kind of telling Paul about the story. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.840 This was a very common kind of well, I'm gonna 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.840 call it like a chore or like a duty, like 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.000 a thing that everyone was expected to do and take turns. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.560 They were guarding in these wooded areas, the outskirts of 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:22.320 the barracks all night long, very sleep deprived, and something 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.160 that everyone was expected to do. He was on guard duty. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.640 He had left his group to perform a maneuver they 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.720 call prowler patrol, where you go on your own around 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.240 the outskirts of the you know, just basically like, yeah, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.199 it's the kind of thing you see in like war movies, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.680 where someone you know, standing post and then every so 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:43.960 often they go and walk around and make their rounds 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.559 to make sure no one's lurking in the bushes or anything. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:52.040 So he did that. Anecdotal evidence that we've found suggests 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:57.080 that someone else, it's entirely likely, in fact probable, that 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:02.280 someone else fired the shots that ended Jeff's life. There 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.880 are four witnesses that have testified to seeing a figure 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:10.080 running from the place where Private Gray's body was found. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.400 We've also found evidence in the research that suggests that 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.760 someone moved his body. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.240 Yeah, and we're going to talk more specifics about this 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:22.960 stuff as we go on. For now, we're just going 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:28.160 to tell you the basic details of these individuals. Another 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.880 young soldier who died was named James Collinson. He was 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.160 from Perth. He was also seventeen, like Jeff. He died 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.360 on March twenty third, two thousand and two, from a 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.880 single gunshot wound to his head while he was on 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.120 guard duty. His body was found near a perimeter fence 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.760 there at the facility. And it just should be noted 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:55.120 here that several of the areas of Deep Cup barracks 0:14:55.560 --> 0:15:01.320 have these very large perimeter fences where the guard duty 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.320 essentially was performed near these fences. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.360 Then there's the third case. We're jumping around a little 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.240 bit in time here, but the third case is Cheryl James. 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.160 She's eighteen, she was from Land Gulf Lne in Wales, 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.440 and she was found dead from a single gunshot wound 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.960 to the head on November twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.360 Like those other two cases we've mentioned, she was on 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:32.400 guard duty. Her body was found in the woods nearby 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.600 her abandoned post. 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:40.200 Yeah, and Cheryl allegedly was the target of widespread sexual 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:45.000 harassment by commanding officers, which is a culture that we've 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:49.720 seen many many accounts of being kind of pervasive within 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:54.920 Deep Cut, whether just in passing or potentially as a 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.640 tool of control. There are various accounts of this. People 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.960 deny these allegations, but I just I think it's important 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.440 to mention that there's a lot of discussion about these 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.920 things being very real by folks who have passed through 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:11.920 this facility over the years. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.480 And you know, I would also say, each one of 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.520 these individuals is their own person. They were the own 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.880 protagonist in their story. As we mentioned on this show 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.000 a lot, and in some of these inquiries, the deep 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:29.360 background on these folks it you know, there are complications 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.520 in every person's life and that's you know, one of 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.000 the major things that was looked at in these inquiries. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.400 So we again I am stressing, we are just giving 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.680 you the absolute top down view at this moment on 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:42.280 these people. 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:43.880 Yeah. Yeah. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.320 The last of the deep cut four, by which we 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:53.440 mean the acknowledged deaths in this ongoing investigation, was Sean Benton. 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:55.160 Sean was twenty years old. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:56.800 He was a local. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:03.560 He's from Hastings, East Sussex. Benton died from five gunshot 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:07.639 wounds to the chest after he was also on a 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.040 guard duty assignment. After he was also on patrol of 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.560 the perimeter. And he was, like some of the other 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.160 cases on an unauthorized solo patrol. This occurred on June ninth, 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.560 nineteen ninety five. As we mentioned, military, the military internal 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:30.160 investigation quickly and in their mind definitively said that all 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.080 four had shot themselves with their own rifles while on 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.200 guard duty, although the coroner at the time recorded a 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.840 verdict of suicide in only one case. 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.720 Yeah, and just just a real quick add a detail 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.399 to Sean, he is I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, guys, 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.280 But the only one where we actually have a detailed 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.080 suicide note that he left behind. There's an article that 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.000 it's on the Daily Mail. It's you know, I know 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.679 is a little bit of a kind of take it 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.359 with a grain of salt at times, but this is 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.720 a document that they published that they got a hold of. 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.679 It was this note where he claimed that he was 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.119 being discharged from the army and that he couldn't cope 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.080 with returning to civy street life, that all he ever 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.840 wanted was a career in the army. And we'll come 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.960 back to this, and there's definitely this is, in my opinion, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.879 by far, one of the more unusual cases of the 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.800 of the four here. But Sean was characterized having had 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:34.800 some history of psychological problems and potentially a history of depression. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:36.360 But we'll revisit that. 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:36.840 A little bit. 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.200 And yet he ended up with five gunshot wounds to the. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:41.360 Chest, right. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.919 But also we do have we do have what is 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.040 being referred to as a suicide note from him, but 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:47.280 there's some problems with that too. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:52.080 Yeah, and each of these, each of these cases quickly becomes, 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:58.960 I think, its own separate, distinct morass of conflicting information. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.919 Perhaps the one thing they have in common is an 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.920 active cover up. But it's not our jump to it's 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.920 not our job to tell you that. We just want 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:13.480 to give you the facts of the matter. While while 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:18.760 these events occurred decades ago, right, the multiple reports all 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:23.520 indicate that, regardless of how these young privates died, Deep 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.439 Cut itself was in the midst of a desperate and 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.880 quiet crisis. We have investigative journalists like Brian Cathcart who 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:37.719 have found that the institution routinely exposed trainees to bullying, sex, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:44.440 and flagrant like ridiculous disregard for rules relating to firearms, 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:49.959 like even more lackadaisical than a bunch of buddies who 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.720 just get shotguns and go drinking beer and shooting at 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:53.719 cans with their friends. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:55.000 It was bad. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.320 Additionally, the Ministry of Defense or MODS will refer to 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:04.480 a moving Ford, has been accused of withholding, possibly even 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:09.120 destroying evidence related to this case. We've got Jim Collinson, 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:14.240 forty years old, the father of James, compared getting information 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.320 you know, I mean, think about it like your child 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:21.320 has died under mysterious circumstances. They're not you know, you 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.439 know your child. You don't understand how could they do this? 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.920 Suicide is such a difficult thing in that way, and 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.800 to not get any answers would just prolong that morning period. 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.360 And you know, you expect that if the Ministry has 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.200 nothing to hide, they would be forthcoming with information about 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.879 the case. But apparently it was just not to be. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.560 Jim Collinson, again, the father of James, said getting information 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.000 from the MOD was like getting blood from a stone. 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.520 There's a quote from him saying the MOD wouldn't come 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:51.960 forward and explain what happened to our son that night. 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.399 Then three days after his funeral, I phoned up a 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.159 senior official at Deep Cut and asked him how the 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:02.359 investigation was going. He replied, one body one gun. Draw 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:08.280 your own conclusion. Yikes. I mean, come on, just let's 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.359 have a little bit of bedside manner at the very least. 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.439 And that seemed to have been their attitude overall. James 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:18.240 was just just a number. This case closed. You know, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.840 it's the same with the police. When they close a 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:22.600 case or close a murder, they don't want to think 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.280 about it ever again, they have moved on. There's no empathy, 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.280 there's no room for empathy in these organizations. Sometimes it 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.520 seems to be not to say that's the case for 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:36.000 every officer, but it seems in general, this whole idea 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:40.359 of emotionlessness is a big part of the military and 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.000 these kinds of organizations. We've got another account for me. 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.080 I would just say that if a police officer dies, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:52.320 the investigation into that death, I would say, is far 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.600 more rigorous than the death of a citizen would be, 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:59.359 just because of the resources, internal resources that would be 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.960 going into finding out what happened to a fellow officer. 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.320 And I think maybe what you're signaling here is that 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:09.560 it feels as though if a member of the military, 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:16.199 any military is killed or dead for any reason outside 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.280 of wartime, outside of active engagement, then it feels as 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.320 though the most the most strenuous things should be done, 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.960 the most intense steps should be taken to find out 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.800 exactly what happened. And maybe it seems as though we 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:34.600 are not seeing that and did not see that. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:40.720 The banality of evil rights most you know, So with 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:46.439 institutions of this size, fiction often gets it wrong. It's not, 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.639 as it is so rarely the case that there is 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:54.600 some sort of antagonistic super villain who thinks I am 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:57.280 the bad guy and I am doing evil things. A 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.240 lot of times, it's just a person with a very 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:07.640 narrowly defined scope of responsibility. And these investigations can become normalized. 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.399 I say it all the time on this show. It 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:13.840 is disturbing how quickly things become normal. So, if you 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:20.240 were investigating certain circumstances of horrible things like deaths day 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:25.439 in day out, then what becomes the worst event in 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.119 someone's entire life for other people becomes a Tuesday, you know, 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:36.080 And that's not right, but it's what happens. There's desensitization. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:41.560 The parents have been vocal about this for decades. Des 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:47.440 James is the father of Cheryl. James, said he brought 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.200 up like the QC. He brought up the ongoing problems 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.560 with the system we're describing. He actually said, we believe 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.760 the central issue is not how Cheryl died, but why 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.159 her death was not thoroughly investigated at the time. I'm 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.000 to your point, Matt. He said, any meaningful investigation into 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.199 our daughter's death in nineteen ninety five was denied. The 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:11.119 Army assumed or death was a suicide, and he says 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:15.040 there's clear evidence to support that fact. Army documents that 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.119 we have in our possession refer to our tragic suicide 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.760 once and that's the Army's quote. There tragic suicide on 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:26.480 December fourteenth, nineteen ninety five, and that's one week before 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:31.840 the coroner's court even convened an inquest, meaning the Army, 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:37.000 before like an autopsy or a coroner's investigation occurred. The 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.760 Army went ahead and just said it was self inflicted. 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.440 Yeah, and you know, I mean again, with suicide, there's 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:46.760 so many it's obviously really triggering subject from many people. 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.560 There's a lot that happens when something is ruled a suicide. 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:57.200 So you know, for example, if someone has an insurance 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.320 policy on themselves and they are they ca take their 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:02.639 own lives, that's insurance policy doesn't pay out. Not to 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:05.200