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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist.

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Speaker 2: Our classic episode for this evening is not suitable for

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Speaker 2: all audiences. The Princess Royal Barracks deep Cut, more often

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Speaker 2: known as the Deep Cut Barracks, was once upon a

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Speaker 2: time the headquarters of the British Army's Royal Logistic Corps,

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Speaker 2: and on paper everything was tickety boom. However, as we

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Speaker 2: saw back in twenty twenty, there's a much darker side

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Speaker 2: to the tail.

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Speaker 3: So the big question that we're tackling here is could

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Speaker 3: there have been foul play for these four people to

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Speaker 3: have died? Or a foul play is in did someone

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Speaker 3: else kill them? Or is a foul play in that

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Speaker 3: they were led to that place where they perhaps took

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Speaker 3: their own lives.

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Speaker 4: Let's jump right in and find out.

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Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 5: production of Iheartrading.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 3: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 2: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul

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Speaker 2: Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you. You are

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Speaker 2: here and that makes this stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 2: to know. It's obvious to everybody listening today, whether or

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Speaker 2: not you have been in the military, whether or not

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Speaker 2: you have a friend or a loved one in the

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Speaker 2: armed forces, that life in any country's military can be brutal,

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Speaker 2: and depending on where you enlist. Training itself, just the

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Speaker 2: training part, just when you're becoming a soldier, can be

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Speaker 2: especially taxing. It stretches individuals to their mental and physical limits,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes it pushes them beyond those limits, with catastrophic

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Speaker 2: consequences to follow. Today's episode is probably best framed as

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Speaker 2: an introduction to a story that many of us in

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Speaker 2: the US especially may not know. The reason I'm stressing

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Speaker 2: that this is an introduction is because there is so

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Speaker 2: much to this rabbit hole. This is a warren of

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Speaker 2: rabbit holes. And what we're going to do in this

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Speaker 2: episode is the same thing we do with every show.

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Speaker 2: We're going to give you the facts, We're going to

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Speaker 2: tell you where it gets crazy. But we do want

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Speaker 2: you to know that there is much, much, much more

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Speaker 2: information out there, and we talked a little bit about

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Speaker 2: this off air. We consider this an ongoing case. We'll

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Speaker 2: call it the Deep Cut four. Here are the facts.

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Speaker 3: This story takes place in London, just outside of London,

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Speaker 3: actually about an hour and a half drive southwest of

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Speaker 3: the City of London, which is a place we've talked

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Speaker 3: about before on this show. The city of London exists

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Speaker 3: within London or Greater London. That's a whole episode in itself,

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Speaker 3: but specifically we're going to the Deep Cut Barracks. It's

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Speaker 3: known as Princess Royal Barracks Deep Cut. It's near Camberley,

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Speaker 3: Surrey in England, and before nineteen ninety three it was

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Speaker 3: also known as Blackdown Barracks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in nineteen hundred the Royal Engineers started to build

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Speaker 4: several camps around this facility. It had originally been used

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Speaker 4: as a training ground up until the late eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 4: but it didn't really have any formalized infrastructure until nineteen hundred.

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Speaker 4: The barracks went through a number of different changes, but

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Speaker 4: after the story that we're going to dive in today

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Speaker 4: took place, they were scheduled to be torn down and

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Speaker 4: today you can see these barracks as the home to

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Speaker 4: the Royal Logistic Corps Museum, which is a wing of

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Speaker 4: the British military and also the Royal Logistics Core banned,

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Speaker 4: which is where they're based and rehearse, and the Defense

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Speaker 4: Logistics School is also there, and then twenty five training

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Speaker 4: support regiments.

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Speaker 2: Back in twenty thirteen, as you would alluded to earlier there,

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Speaker 2: the UK government announced official plans to close down the

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Speaker 2: operation and to open the land upon which the compound

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Speaker 2: stands for future housing developments. As we record right now,

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Speaker 2: the current estimates project the barracks will be completely decommissioned

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Speaker 2: and become a thing of the past by twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 2: That means, of course that anything that any way that

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Speaker 2: the physical location could have assisted in the investigation will

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Speaker 2: be full stop gone by next year. What do we

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Speaker 2: mean when we say investigation, So in Deep Cut Barracks

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Speaker 2: between nineteen ninety five in two thousand and two, young

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Speaker 2: trainees began dying under what we would we would like

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Speaker 2: the most diplomatic way to put it is mysterious circumstances.

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Speaker 2: They all died from gunshot wounds and they were all privates,

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Speaker 2: Jeff Gray, Eryl, James Sean Benton, and James Collinson. Their

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Speaker 2: deaths were all ruled suicides by the military, despite strong

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Speaker 2: and continuing objections from friends family members, some government officials,

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Speaker 2: and numerous experts. We're talking, you know, well journalists as well,

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Speaker 2: but we're also talking pathologists, ballistics experts, coroners and so on.

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Speaker 2: So as early as two thousand and two, there were

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Speaker 2: calls for an inquiry, and then, you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the big problems the military was investigating in itself, and

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Speaker 2: there were later police investigations along with reviews of army

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Speaker 2: training procedures.

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Speaker 3: And then two years later, in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: the government announced that a review of the situation occurring

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Speaker 3: at Deepcut concluded that the deaths of these four privates

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Speaker 3: were probably again here we go, probably self inflicted. It's

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Speaker 3: a review that you can read right now. It was

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Speaker 3: conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. It's available online. It's really

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Speaker 3: in depth, very very in depth. One thing we found

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Speaker 3: in researching this episode is that the numerous inquiries that

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Speaker 3: have occurred since the time of these deaths are so

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Speaker 3: filled with information it becomes a bit difficult to navigate them.

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Speaker 3: But we assure you that it is worth your time.

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Speaker 3: This specific one, performed by Nicholas Blake QC, focused on

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Speaker 3: the problems that were occurring within the system itself, the

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Speaker 3: organization of the military, and you know, really just the

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Speaker 3: situation at deep Cut itself with regards to supervision and

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Speaker 3: what the you know, the trainees were doing, how they

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Speaker 3: were looked after, and what they had access to.

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Speaker 2: And I want to add here I have spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of time reading.

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Speaker 1: Some very you know, very.

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Speaker 2: Important but very dry reports, and British legal writing is

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Speaker 2: a different language. I think we were talking off Aaron

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Speaker 2: I was saying, British legal writing warps your mind. But

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Speaker 2: the way it would be written in a report like

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Speaker 2: this would be something more like an in depth analysis

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Speaker 2: of what may accurately be described as the overall linguistic

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Speaker 2: approach to the articulation of concepts in the British legal system,

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Speaker 2: conducted by ben Bull and PCVA stuff they don't want you,

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Speaker 2: no sub committee to iHeartMedia finds that numerous individuals have

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Speaker 2: encountered circumstances both deleatorious and circuitous, and they're going forward

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Speaker 2: cognitive function a circumstance the trace to that which could

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Speaker 2: also be called British legal writing c NX see appendix

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Speaker 2: for at.

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Speaker 1: All like this is this is written? I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is written.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to accuse people of trying

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Speaker 2: to make it illegible for the average person, but it's

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Speaker 2: I think they shot themselves in the foot if they

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Speaker 2: were going for accuracy.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, we've read contracts, you know, and we

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Speaker 4: we have legal documents that come across our inboxes for

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Speaker 4: various work things, and they're written pretty pedantic, hard to

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Speaker 4: understand language that seems a little pointed at times where

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Speaker 4: it's obviously meant to be. That's why you got to

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Speaker 4: hire a lawyer, because you gotta have someone in the

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Speaker 4: club who can like decipher this for the lay person.

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Speaker 4: This is entirely some next level of.

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Speaker 3: That I would I would categorize that writing as maximum formality.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And speaking of maximum formality, I have to say, like,

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Speaker 4: for part of the research that I did into this topic,

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Speaker 4: I watched this great BBC Panorama documentary. They've done covered

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Speaker 4: a lot of interesting stuff over the years, like they

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Speaker 4: did one on scientology that I quite enjoyed, and it's

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Speaker 4: just a great series. It's been around for a long time.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we're talking about one particular barracks. We're

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Speaker 4: also talking about the idea of systematic abuse, which is

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Speaker 4: obviously very poignant right now with the stuff we're going

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Speaker 4: through in our history as a country and as a

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Speaker 4: human race. But we're not necessarily trying to damn the

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Speaker 4: entire British military here. We are looking at a specific case,

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Speaker 4: and the British military will deny that these things are

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Speaker 4: systematic and that they do try to root out any

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Speaker 4: quote unquote bad actors in the system. But you know,

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Speaker 4: for anyone who has served in the military, I know

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Speaker 4: it can feel when people who have not served in

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Speaker 4: the military are criticizing these structures that it can feel

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Speaker 4: a little bit like, you know, how we're or you

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Speaker 4: get off or something. But I feel like there are

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Speaker 4: the researches here, the data is here, maybe not enough

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Speaker 4: to apply it to the whole system, but it sure

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Speaker 4: makes you think. And I think now's a great time

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Speaker 4: to talk about these these deaths.

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Speaker 3: So let's jump back to that two thousand and four

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Speaker 3: review conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. Within it, there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of recommendations about what could be done better, perhaps,

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Speaker 3: but again it's focused squarely on the system itself and

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Speaker 3: the way the military is organized. If you look deeply

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Speaker 3: into it, it shows that these four deaths which again

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Speaker 3: the report characterizes as self inflicted or suicide. It does

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Speaker 3: say that many have occurred due to a number of

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Speaker 3: dangerous contributing factors at specifically Deep Cut barracks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are things like you'll see these observations, and

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Speaker 2: then you'll also see if you if you fast forward

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Speaker 2: to you know, page three hundred and forty or so,

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Speaker 2: you'll see things. You'll see recommendations for how these could

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Speaker 2: be fixed. The problems, according to the QC's report, QC

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Speaker 2: stands for Queen's Counsel.

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Speaker 1: Think of it like a super lawyer.

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Speaker 2: The problems are things like lack of control over access

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Speaker 2: to firearms in the barracks. They were very loose with that,

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Speaker 2: poor supervision which I think we have specifics on later

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Speaker 2: in the show, poor accommodation, lack of discipline and prevalent

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Speaker 2: like Lord of the Fly style bullying, unofficial punishments, sexual

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Speaker 2: harassment and abuse, running rampant, no real complaint mechanism, which

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Speaker 2: is something we see in a lot of organizations, honestly,

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Speaker 2: and low quality instructors. The review, as you might imagine,

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Speaker 2: did not satisfy the parents and loved ones of these

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Speaker 2: four dead trainees. So the police conducted for other inquiries,

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Speaker 2: for subsequent investigations. These have never been made public there somewhere,

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Speaker 2: unless the evidence was destroyed, which is a possibility, but

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Speaker 2: they've never been made public. And these parents believe their

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Speaker 2: children did not die from suicide. They believe their children

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Speaker 2: were murdered and that the UK government was and is

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Speaker 2: actively covering it up. So why do they think that

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Speaker 2: we'll tell you after we're from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 2: We mentioned the names here, but let's explore the specific

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Speaker 2: details of these deaths, and also these are the four

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Speaker 2: known deaths. That doesn't mean there aren't more.

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Speaker 4: So first we have Jeff Gray, who's from London, seventeen

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Speaker 4: years old. He was found dead with two gunshot wounds

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Speaker 4: to the head on September seventeenth, two thousand and one.

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Speaker 4: It was officially internally ruled like within the military organization,

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Speaker 4: ruled a suicide. Was on guard duty. And this is

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Speaker 4: the thing. We talked about this a little bit off air,

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Speaker 4: and Matt was kind of telling Paul about the story.

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Speaker 4: This was a very common kind of well, I'm gonna

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Speaker 4: call it like a chore or like a duty, like

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Speaker 4: a thing that everyone was expected to do and take turns.

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Speaker 4: They were guarding in these wooded areas, the outskirts of

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Speaker 4: the barracks all night long, very sleep deprived, and something

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Speaker 4: that everyone was expected to do. He was on guard duty.

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Speaker 4: He had left his group to perform a maneuver they

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Speaker 4: call prowler patrol, where you go on your own around

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Speaker 4: the outskirts of the you know, just basically like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's the kind of thing you see in like war movies,

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Speaker 4: where someone you know, standing post and then every so

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Speaker 4: often they go and walk around and make their rounds

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Speaker 4: to make sure no one's lurking in the bushes or anything.

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Speaker 4: So he did that. Anecdotal evidence that we've found suggests

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Speaker 4: that someone else, it's entirely likely, in fact probable, that

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Speaker 4: someone else fired the shots that ended Jeff's life. There

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Speaker 4: are four witnesses that have testified to seeing a figure

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Speaker 4: running from the place where Private Gray's body was found.

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Speaker 4: We've also found evidence in the research that suggests that

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Speaker 4: someone moved his body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're going to talk more specifics about this

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Speaker 3: stuff as we go on. For now, we're just going

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Speaker 3: to tell you the basic details of these individuals. Another

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Speaker 3: young soldier who died was named James Collinson. He was

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Speaker 3: from Perth. He was also seventeen, like Jeff. He died

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Speaker 3: on March twenty third, two thousand and two, from a

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Speaker 3: single gunshot wound to his head while he was on

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Speaker 3: guard duty. His body was found near a perimeter fence

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Speaker 3: there at the facility. And it just should be noted

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Speaker 3: here that several of the areas of Deep Cup barracks

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Speaker 3: have these very large perimeter fences where the guard duty

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Speaker 3: essentially was performed near these fences.

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Speaker 2: Then there's the third case. We're jumping around a little

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Speaker 2: bit in time here, but the third case is Cheryl James.

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Speaker 2: She's eighteen, she was from Land Gulf Lne in Wales,

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Speaker 2: and she was found dead from a single gunshot wound

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Speaker 2: to the head on November twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 2: Like those other two cases we've mentioned, she was on

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Speaker 2: guard duty. Her body was found in the woods nearby

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Speaker 2: her abandoned post.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and Cheryl allegedly was the target of widespread sexual

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Speaker 4: harassment by commanding officers, which is a culture that we've

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Speaker 4: seen many many accounts of being kind of pervasive within

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Speaker 4: Deep Cut, whether just in passing or potentially as a

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Speaker 4: tool of control. There are various accounts of this. People

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Speaker 4: deny these allegations, but I just I think it's important

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Speaker 4: to mention that there's a lot of discussion about these

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Speaker 4: things being very real by folks who have passed through

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Speaker 4: this facility over the years.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I would also say, each one of

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Speaker 3: these individuals is their own person. They were the own

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Speaker 3: protagonist in their story. As we mentioned on this show

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Speaker 3: a lot, and in some of these inquiries, the deep

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Speaker 3: background on these folks it you know, there are complications

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Speaker 3: in every person's life and that's you know, one of

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Speaker 3: the major things that was looked at in these inquiries.

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Speaker 3: So we again I am stressing, we are just giving

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Speaker 3: you the absolute top down view at this moment on

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Speaker 3: these people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The last of the deep cut four, by which we

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Speaker 2: mean the acknowledged deaths in this ongoing investigation, was Sean Benton.

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Speaker 2: Sean was twenty years old.

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Speaker 1: He was a local.

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Speaker 2: He's from Hastings, East Sussex. Benton died from five gunshot

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Speaker 2: wounds to the chest after he was also on a

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Speaker 2: guard duty assignment. After he was also on patrol of

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Speaker 2: the perimeter. And he was, like some of the other

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Speaker 2: cases on an unauthorized solo patrol. This occurred on June ninth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five. As we mentioned, military, the military internal

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Speaker 2: investigation quickly and in their mind definitively said that all

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Speaker 2: four had shot themselves with their own rifles while on

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Speaker 2: guard duty, although the coroner at the time recorded a

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Speaker 2: verdict of suicide in only one case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and just just a real quick add a detail

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Speaker 4: to Sean, he is I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, guys,

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Speaker 4: But the only one where we actually have a detailed

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Speaker 4: suicide note that he left behind. There's an article that

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Speaker 4: it's on the Daily Mail. It's you know, I know

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Speaker 4: is a little bit of a kind of take it

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Speaker 4: with a grain of salt at times, but this is

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Speaker 4: a document that they published that they got a hold of.

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Speaker 4: It was this note where he claimed that he was

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Speaker 4: being discharged from the army and that he couldn't cope

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Speaker 4: with returning to civy street life, that all he ever

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Speaker 4: wanted was a career in the army. And we'll come

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Speaker 4: back to this, and there's definitely this is, in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: by far, one of the more unusual cases of the

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Speaker 4: of the four here. But Sean was characterized having had

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Speaker 4: some history of psychological problems and potentially a history of depression.

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Speaker 4: But we'll revisit that.

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Speaker 1: A little bit.

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Speaker 3: And yet he ended up with five gunshot wounds to the.

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Speaker 1: Chest, right.

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Speaker 4: But also we do have we do have what is

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Speaker 4: being referred to as a suicide note from him, but

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Speaker 4: there's some problems with that too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and each of these, each of these cases quickly becomes,

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Speaker 2: I think, its own separate, distinct morass of conflicting information.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps the one thing they have in common is an

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Speaker 2: active cover up. But it's not our jump to it's

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Speaker 2: not our job to tell you that. We just want

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Speaker 2: to give you the facts of the matter. While while

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Speaker 2: these events occurred decades ago, right, the multiple reports all

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Speaker 2: indicate that, regardless of how these young privates died, Deep

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Speaker 2: Cut itself was in the midst of a desperate and

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Speaker 2: quiet crisis. We have investigative journalists like Brian Cathcart who

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Speaker 2: have found that the institution routinely exposed trainees to bullying, sex,

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Speaker 2: and flagrant like ridiculous disregard for rules relating to firearms,

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Speaker 2: like even more lackadaisical than a bunch of buddies who

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Speaker 2: just get shotguns and go drinking beer and shooting at

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Speaker 2: cans with their friends.

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Speaker 1: It was bad.

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Speaker 4: Additionally, the Ministry of Defense or MODS will refer to

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Speaker 4: a moving Ford, has been accused of withholding, possibly even

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Speaker 4: destroying evidence related to this case. We've got Jim Collinson,

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Speaker 4: forty years old, the father of James, compared getting information

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean, think about it like your child

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Speaker 4: has died under mysterious circumstances. They're not you know, you

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Speaker 4: know your child. You don't understand how could they do this?

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Speaker 4: Suicide is such a difficult thing in that way, and

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Speaker 4: to not get any answers would just prolong that morning period.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you expect that if the Ministry has

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Speaker 4: nothing to hide, they would be forthcoming with information about

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Speaker 4: the case. But apparently it was just not to be.

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Speaker 4: Jim Collinson, again, the father of James, said getting information

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Speaker 4: from the MOD was like getting blood from a stone.

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Speaker 4: There's a quote from him saying the MOD wouldn't come

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Speaker 4: forward and explain what happened to our son that night.

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Speaker 4: Then three days after his funeral, I phoned up a

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Speaker 4: senior official at Deep Cut and asked him how the

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Speaker 4: investigation was going. He replied, one body one gun. Draw

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Speaker 4: your own conclusion. Yikes. I mean, come on, just let's

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Speaker 4: have a little bit of bedside manner at the very least.

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Speaker 4: And that seemed to have been their attitude overall. James

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Speaker 4: was just just a number. This case closed. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's the same with the police. When they close a

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Speaker 4: case or close a murder, they don't want to think

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Speaker 4: about it ever again, they have moved on. There's no empathy,

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Speaker 4: there's no room for empathy in these organizations. Sometimes it

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Speaker 4: seems to be not to say that's the case for

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Speaker 4: every officer, but it seems in general, this whole idea

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Speaker 4: of emotionlessness is a big part of the military and

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Speaker 4: these kinds of organizations. We've got another account for me.

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Speaker 3: I would just say that if a police officer dies,

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Speaker 3: the investigation into that death, I would say, is far

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Speaker 3: more rigorous than the death of a citizen would be,

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Speaker 3: just because of the resources, internal resources that would be

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Speaker 3: going into finding out what happened to a fellow officer.

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Speaker 3: And I think maybe what you're signaling here is that

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Speaker 3: it feels as though if a member of the military,

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Speaker 3: any military is killed or dead for any reason outside

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Speaker 3: of wartime, outside of active engagement, then it feels as

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Speaker 3: though the most the most strenuous things should be done,

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Speaker 3: the most intense steps should be taken to find out

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Speaker 3: exactly what happened. And maybe it seems as though we

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Speaker 3: are not seeing that and did not see that.

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Speaker 2: The banality of evil rights most you know, So with

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Speaker 2: institutions of this size, fiction often gets it wrong. It's not,

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Speaker 2: as it is so rarely the case that there is

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Speaker 2: some sort of antagonistic super villain who thinks I am

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Speaker 2: the bad guy and I am doing evil things. A

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Speaker 2: lot of times, it's just a person with a very

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Speaker 2: narrowly defined scope of responsibility. And these investigations can become normalized.

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Speaker 2: I say it all the time on this show. It

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Speaker 2: is disturbing how quickly things become normal. So, if you

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Speaker 2: were investigating certain circumstances of horrible things like deaths day

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Speaker 2: in day out, then what becomes the worst event in

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Speaker 2: someone's entire life for other people becomes a Tuesday, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that's not right, but it's what happens. There's desensitization.

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Speaker 2: The parents have been vocal about this for decades. Des

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Speaker 2: James is the father of Cheryl. James, said he brought

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Speaker 2: up like the QC. He brought up the ongoing problems

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Speaker 2: with the system we're describing. He actually said, we believe

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Speaker 2: the central issue is not how Cheryl died, but why

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Speaker 2: her death was not thoroughly investigated at the time. I'm

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Speaker 2: to your point, Matt. He said, any meaningful investigation into

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Speaker 2: our daughter's death in nineteen ninety five was denied. The

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Speaker 2: Army assumed or death was a suicide, and he says

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Speaker 2: there's clear evidence to support that fact. Army documents that

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Speaker 2: we have in our possession refer to our tragic suicide

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Speaker 2: once and that's the Army's quote. There tragic suicide on

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Speaker 2: December fourteenth, nineteen ninety five, and that's one week before

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Speaker 2: the coroner's court even convened an inquest, meaning the Army,

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Speaker 2: before like an autopsy or a coroner's investigation occurred. The

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Speaker 2: Army went ahead and just said it was self inflicted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I mean again, with suicide, there's

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Speaker 4: so many it's obviously really triggering subject from many people.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot that happens when something is ruled a suicide.

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Speaker 4: So you know, for example, if someone has an insurance

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Speaker 4: policy on themselves and they are they ca take their

400
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Speaker 4: own lives, that's insurance policy doesn't pay out. Not to

401
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Speaker 4: say there any of that's going into these decisions, but

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying is it's a big deal to rule

403
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Speaker 4: something a suicide. It means something. So to just flippantly

404
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Speaker 4: do that and just say case closed, it just it

405
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Speaker 4: feels very irresponsible, and it feels like they're just looking

406
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Speaker 4: out for the optics of it and trying to absolve

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Speaker 4: themselves of any wrongdoing as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's some stuff I found about Jeff

409
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Speaker 2: Gray that I took personally, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: and his parents were more explicit. But we kept finding

411
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Speaker 2: more to this story. Every string we pulled, every puzzle

412
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Speaker 2: piece we interlocked, led to another puzzle piece, another string

413
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Speaker 2: of what appears to be a tremendously occulted web of

414
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Speaker 2: ongoing problems here, because, as James also said that he

415
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Speaker 2: had on record, there were no less than five other

416
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Speaker 2: attempted suicides at Deep Cut and they just weren't externally reported.

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Speaker 2: And then you mentioned earlier the panorama, the panorama video

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Speaker 2: from BBC that appears to confirm some of this.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they found a document that lists several additional suicide attempts,

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Speaker 4: unsuccessful suicide attempts. I guess that's what an attempt is, uh,

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Speaker 4: And it catalogs all of the various methods that were

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Speaker 4: used by these cadets, including overdosing on acetam menafin or paracetamol.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that that's what they call It's the same thing, right,

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Speaker 4: so they call it in the UK, and also slitting

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Speaker 4: their own wrists. But in this document, there's no there's

427
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Speaker 4: nothing that mentions any of the bullying, which I guess

428
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Speaker 4: maybe wouldn't be the appropriate document for that to be listed.

429
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Speaker 4: But it just there feels like there's a disconnect here.

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Speaker 4: This doesn't feel like something that is normal or should

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Speaker 4: be accepted.

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Speaker 3: Agreed, And we're going to get more into the bullying

433
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Speaker 3: as we continue on here what that means and what

434
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Speaker 3: it looks like today even or in the recent past.

435
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Speaker 3: Let's move on to Jeff Gray. His parents, as you said, Ben,

436
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Speaker 3: have been extremely explicit in their statements about their son's death.

437
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: I have a quote here. We are of the opinion

438
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: that there is a cover up surrounding Jeff's death, and

439
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: one of the major reasons for that. There are a

440
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: lot of major reasons for that, But I guess one

441
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: of the most surface puzzling things is something we already

442
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: talked about. That Jeff was shot twice in the head.

443
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: Proved it when the inquest was done into his death.

444
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 3: There is evidence suggesting that Jeff's body was moved after

445
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: he was killed, and as we noted before earlier in

446
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: this episode, that there were footsteps heard running away from

447
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 3: the fence in the area where Jeff's body was found,

448
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 3: that some intruders, some outside people were there that night,

449
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 3: at least one they it seems like they may have

450
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: waited over an hour to place Jeff's body in the

451
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: area where it was originally found after he was killed elsewhere.

452
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: And to put it, to put it plainly, the specific

453
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: quote from the parents of Jeff Gray and their statement

454
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: is is this, we feel that the army has tried

455
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: to make us believe some fairy tale where Jeff shot

456
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: himself twice, hid for an hour, climbed over a fence

457
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: a couple of times, then laid down and died. And

458
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: hearing it presented that way, hearing it presented that way

459
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: cuts close because that you know, that's what happened. That

460
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: appears to be the bare bone circumstances of the sequence

461
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: of events that occurred from the time he was alive

462
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: to the time he was found dead. Now it's I

463
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: know a lot of us in the crowd are especially

464
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: longtime listeners. When you've heard us discuss allegations of homicide

465
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: framed a suicide, you already know this and we should

466
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 2: acknowledge it. People can and have, and sadly, in the

467
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: future probably still will commit suicide via firearm and be

468
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: able to shoot themselves under some circumstances more than once

469
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: in the head or chest, but.

470
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: It is rare, to say the least.

471
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: We're going to examine more of this. We've alluded to

472
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: a couple of things we're diving into here. After a

473
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: word from our sponsors.

474
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: Give her back, we're going to talk a little bit

475
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 3: about another inquest that was performed much later. It was

476
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: released June third, twenty sixteen. It was performed by Brian

477
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: Barker CB again Queen's Counsel. One was a specific inquest

478
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: into the death of Eryl James, and we want to

479
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: talk about some of the underlying conditions that were happening

480
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: there at deep cut conditions that perhaps set up some

481
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 3: of the younger people there, because again we're talking about

482
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 3: teenagers in a lot of this. To young adults, we're

483
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: just gonna speak about the environment in which they were existing.

484
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: So within this report, it was noted that in the

485
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: field army, the usual ratio of corporals to soldiers or

486
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: you know, just higher commanding officers to the to like

487
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: privates and to lower ranking soldiers would generally be around

488
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: one to eight to one to twelve. So one commander,

489
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: twelve officers under that commander, one commander, eight officers under

490
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: that commander. And sometimes they call this when when a

491
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: unit is holding or when it's a holding unit, so

492
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: like a unit that's just kind of on standby. Essentially,

493
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: it would be one commanding officer to twenty and generally

494
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 3: maximum one to thirty would be appropriate. However, at deep cut,

495
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: the ratio of a commanding officer to these lower ranking

496
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: officers was rarely less than one to eighty and on

497
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: occasions up to two hundred. So imagine that in a

498
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 3: teacher student ratio, I think a good way to look

499
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: at it.

500
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: Imagine it's.

501
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: You can imagine those other ratios like one teacher to

502
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: eight to twelve students. I mean that would be amazing.

503
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: That would be very closely learning, having a lot of

504
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: one on one interaction. One to twenty and thirty is

505
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: probably about what you would see in a public school

506
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: here in the United States, but one to eighty or

507
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 3: two hundred is I just don't know how there's any

508
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 3: real oversight there.

509
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 4: And also like how they's justification for that, you know.

510
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 4: It's like, sure, you could say, well, I really like

511
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: your analogy about schools, because I do think this is instruction,

512
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, it's not like arts and crafts,

513
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 4: but it absolutely is. It requires instruction and training and

514
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: the ability to have a little bit of one on

515
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 4: one time to some degree with individuals. And I know

516
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: a lot of army exercises and drills happen on mass

517
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: so maybe that doesn't apply, but it still just seems

518
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 4: egregiously out of proportion, especially when you consider the access

519
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: to firearms that you're talking about, and like, you know,

520
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 4: the lack of oversight in that department.

521
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: You know, well, Dan just didn't even know what's going

522
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: on at the barracks at any given time.

523
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

524
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: And this is so this is a crucial point because

525
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: we're a lot of what we're talking about is how

526
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: these were initially reported, and reports themselves. Investigations inherently require

527
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: oversight and supervision, and that just wasn't occurring at the

528
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: level it should have been occurring at these barracks. And

529
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: it was not an isolated incident. It was not a

530
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: one off bad Saturday when two people called out sick

531
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: or something. This was ongoing, and it was ongoing for decades.

532
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: The environment there has been described by multiple accounts people

533
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: who went through the training as dreadful, as brutal, as cruel,

534
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: as horrific. I mentioned earlier that the banality of evil here,

535
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: which holds true, always tells us that very few people

536
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: think of themselves as an antagonist.

537
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 4: Right.

538
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 2: Everybody's their own main character. Everybody's the hero of the story.

539
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: Why doesn't the rest of the world only love me?

540
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: I couldn't do anything wrong. I have my reasons. But

541
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: if there is a single human face we could put

542
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: on this story as what most people would see as

543
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: an antagonistic force, it would be one Sergeant Andrew Gavigan.

544
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Gavagan comes up time and time again. He was

545
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: he testified in front of one of these inquests that

546
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 4: took place a little bit later, but he is someone

547
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 4: whose name constantly comes up among people that have passed

548
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 4: through this facility, and not in a positive way at all.

549
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 4: In fact, Eryl James's father in that Panorama documentary spoke

550
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: of him in terms of boy, would I like to

551
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 4: be alone in a room with this guy? I would

552
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 4: do what any father would do. And the reason is

553
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 4: there are a lot of widespread allegations that not only

554
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 4: was Gavagan kind of the ring master of a lot

555
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 4: of these systematized bullying tactics to dehumanize, allegedly dehumanize and humiliate,

556
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 4: kind of the idea of breaking down, you know, a

557
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 4: a cadet and making them up stronger by breaking them

558
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: or whatever, which you know, as we know, it doesn't

559
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 4: always work like that. He is also accused of some

560
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 4: sexual misconduct with Cheryl. The allegation was that he invited

561
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 4: her to these barracks or not invited if your commanding officer,

562
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 4: he ordered her to these barracks in the undercover of

563
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: night and then allegedly made some sexual advances. He has

564
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 4: denied this multiple times, as he has characterized some of

565
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 4: these bullying techniques as having been done quote in humor,

566
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 4: So do with that what you will. Ben, You're the

567
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 4: one who pointed that line out to me, and I

568
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 4: was shocked.

569
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, in twenty eighteen, he denied the deep cut abuse.

570
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: We're jumping around in time here, but I think this

571
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: I want to emphasize just how recent this ongoing investigation is.

572
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: He says some disturbing stuff in the same quest. One

573
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: of the things he says that the local news in

574
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: the UK latched onto is he did something that a

575
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: lot of abusers do, which is gaslighting, right, And this

576
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: happens anywhere. It's not just something that happens in romantic relationships.

577
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: It happens at your job, it happens in your family,

578
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: it happens all the time.

579
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: The predators are out there.

580
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: What he did, We're gonna tried and true tactic of

581
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 2: abusers or people who have abusive tendencies is he simultaneously

582
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: admitted that he was abusive, there was doing abusive things,

583
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: while also diminishing and minimizing the valid claims of his victims,

584
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: similar to like gaslighting.

585
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 1: In a way.

586
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: During this inquest, which is a legal affair, he said

587
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: that he would refer to his outburst of temper by

588
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: saying that was my twin brother. That was his joke

589
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: about it. It wasn't me, it was by twin He

590
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: told the people in the hearing at this inquest that

591
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: it was all a good humor. The twin brother happened

592
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: very rarely and it was controlled.

593
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 4: But that's the thing that Ben, That's what shocked me

594
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 4: and blew me away that he was so brazen about

595
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 4: this in front of an official inquiry, because it just

596
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: confirms what the what these reports are about him by

597
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: many of these folks again who have passed through the

598
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 4: deep cut barracks, this idea of his twin brother. He

599
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 4: was characterized by many of the folks that I saw

600
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 4: in the panoramic piece, who you know, knew him well

601
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 4: as being a split personality, as having this this true

602
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 4: Jekyll and Hyde kind of quality where he would just

603
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 4: change on a dime into this other person.

604
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 5: Uh.

605
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 4: And the fact that he brought that up himself, I

606
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 4: think is very very telling and very interesting as to

607
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: the sense of like untouchability now being in a position

608
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 4: of power like that, and how he felt.

609
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: I just want to point out here that sergeant I

610
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 3: don't know how to pronounce a big Gavagan feels Remember

611
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 3: that Sergeant Gavigan was a private at one time. Remember

612
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 3: that he probably went through something very very similar I'm imagining.

613
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to humanize him, absolutely not, But what

614
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 3: I'm saying is he went through a system that probably

615
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: did exactly what he is trying or was trying to

616
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 3: do to the privates that he was then in charge of,

617
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 3: And to me, it feels like a system that would

618
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: just continue, as we've seen in other systematic abuse situations,

619
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: where it becomes a line of people doing what they

620
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 3: know and what they've been trained essentially to do.

621
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: I think that's a really good point, Matt. I was hoping,

622
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 4: if you guys don't mind, can we talk a little

623
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 4: bit about some of the allegations of some of the

624
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: scenarios of systematic abuse and bullying. So I think we've

625
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 4: sort of we've obviously hit on the fact that that

626
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 4: these allegations took place, but I don't know that we've

627
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 4: really gone into any specifics outside of some of the

628
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 4: sexual harassment.

629
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: For anyone listening, especially if you are a survivor of

630
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: abuse or if you were having to deal with people

631
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 2: like this in your day to day life in any level,

632
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: we do want to give a disclaimer. We are going

633
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: to be discussing some explicit things, so please be forewarned.

634
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are multiple.

635
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: Very specific allegations of violence of sexual abuse. Bullying really

636
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: is a misnomer here. I think abuse is a much

637
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 2: more accurate term.

638
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. Some of them include things like hanging cadets out

639
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 4: of windows by their ankles. There's an account that because

640
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 4: of an infraction of some degree, whether not keeping your

641
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 4: locker need or perhaps I think it was talking down

642
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 4: or talking back to a commanding officer, that a cadet

643
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 4: was thrown out of a third story window. There was

644
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 4: an account of a trench being dug and not being

645
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 4: dug deep enough, and the cadet being asked to lay

646
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 4: down in it, and then being dog piled on by

647
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 4: commanding officers, one of which who stood on his back

648
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 4: jumped on full force with two feet. And finally an

649
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 4: account of a male cadet being staked down the article

650
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 4: in the sun firstus being pegged down. I guess that

651
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 4: just means tied down, you know, prone on a field

652
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 4: with legs spread, and then a land rover military vehicle

653
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: being driven very quickly towards him between you know, with

654
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 4: the tires driving between his leg coming dangerously close to

655
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 4: you know, hitting him in the genital area.

656
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: So there's obviously some some pretty heinous things going on there.

657
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: There were heinous things going on there at the Deep

658
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: Cut barracks. And who's to say, you know, where these

659
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 3: kinds of things are occurring in other places around the

660
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: world where military training is being was taking place, or

661
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 3: just in other places where there are young people learning.

662
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: You know, we've seen allegations of all kinds of that

663
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: type of abuse in colleges, in fraternities across the world.

664
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: It's rough stuff. It's really rough stuff, and it has

665
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 3: deep psychological effects on the people who are experiencing it

666
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 3: on both sides. Actually, so maybe this is a good

667
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: time to tell people what has happened since since all

668
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: of these events have occurred.

669
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

670
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've laid out a number of the continuing claims here.

671
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: The military was investigating itself. It was criticized, and rightly,

672
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: I mean, how could it be impartial? The Ministry of

673
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: Defense at the very least denied valuable information when it

674
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: was most needed. And having waded through so much stuff

675
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: on this case, I have to say it's pretty offensive

676
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: to find that infamous lack of accountability phrase kept popping up,

677
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: you know, the one mistakes were made. Note the beautiful,

678
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: insidious structure of the passive voice there. Someone made a mistake,

679
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: says this kind of language, but not anyone specifically, and

680
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: definitely not me the person writing it. Don't make me

681
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: responsible for the consequences of my actions. Look, there's another

682
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: important thing I want to hit. So there's a ballistic

683
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: expert named Ken Swan.

684
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: He's independent.

685
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: He was working on behalf of surviving family members, and

686
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: he is one of the reasons that the police have

687
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: yet to release their four subsequent investigations, because he wrote

688
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: to them and said, look, opinions, emotions aside, I did

689
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: the math. This is my area of expertise. It is

690
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: highly unlikely that any of these four people committed suicide.

691
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: There's an interview with the Telegraph where he walks through

692
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 2: his efforts. He physically went to deep Cut barracks, went

693
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: to every position where these four people encountered these fatal

694
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 2: gunshots and attempted to reconstruct the wound patterns. What he found,

695
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: if it is true, is damning.

696
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: He said, we have used some of the best shots

697
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 3: in the British Army in my tests, but none has

698
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: been able to recreate the same pattern at the distances

699
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: these suicides were supposed to have taken place. In case

700
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: of Sean Benton, the wounding pattern can only be achieved

701
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 3: when firing at a range of fifteen feet. That does

702
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 3: not point to suicide.

703
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: And he styles on them just a bit in a

704
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: quote I really appreciated. He says, there is always the

705
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: possibility that I may be wrong, but I will believe

706
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: that when someone can forensically prove that I am wrong.

707
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: Otherwise I will stand by my findings. If that's not enough,

708
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: there's another revelation. A female private who served at Deep

709
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: Cut admitted to police in one of their investigations that.

710
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: She ordered a colleague to shoot.

711
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: At one of the four soldiers who are still alleged

712
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: to have committed suicide. She said that she told her

713
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: colleague to fire at Private Sean Benton because she thought

714
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: he had fired at her. That speaks to how lax

715
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: the firearm regulation was in general there, I believe.

716
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: In her her.

717
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 2: Account to the detectives, she says, yeah, I told him,

718
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: I told you a colleague mind of fire at Benton,

719
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: but I wanted him to hit the legs. Benton, of

720
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: course is the one who got shot five times in

721
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: the chest. And it's bigger. This is one of the

722
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: other important points that we found. This is bigger than

723
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: Deep Cut. There are multiple reports of suspicious deaths in

724
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: the UK military, non combat deaths right, so they're not

725
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: in the field, they're not in a armed conflict with

726
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: an enemy force, and multiple parents and loved ones who

727
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 2: disagree with the official findings. And just like the parents

728
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: of the Deep Cut for these relatives are demanding answers,

729
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: but they are often left unsatisfied with the results of

730
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: these investigations. We found two other deaths that are indirectly

731
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: linked to Deep Cut, not saying this is all like

732
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: some kind of Pepe Sylvia situation, but these deaths weren't

733
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: considered part of the Deep Cut four because they didn't

734
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: occur on the premises.

735
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 4: Yes. Private David Shipley, twenty years old from Barrow in

736
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 4: Furnace found unconscious and faced down in an assault course

737
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 4: pool in Germany on August seventeenth, two thousand and two,

738
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 4: just days after he left from Deep Cut. Private Alison Croft,

739
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 4: twenty two from Bradford was found hanged at Dalton Barracks

740
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 4: in Abington, Oxfordshire, in October of two thousand and two,

741
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 4: and although Croft had no official connection with deep Cut,

742
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 4: officers from the two barracks often socialized together. Not to

743
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 4: overstate the case as that being some kind of connection

744
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 4: or implying this some kind of suicide pact or something.

745
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: It's just interesting and there's clearly more to the story

746
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 4: than the official investigations have revealed that I think we

747
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 4: can say with some degree of certainty.

748
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are also other deaths within the military that

749
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: should be looked at that aren't necessarily bullying, but perhaps

750
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: would be considered extreme tactics of punishment that are doled

751
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 3: out sometimes in these areas, these barracks, these facilities. There's

752
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: one that you can look to if you'd like, a

753
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 3: private named Gavin Williams who died after experiencing what is

754
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: called beasting b East i NG where essentially, as punishment

755
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 3: you are made to exercise beyond the extent of what

756
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: any soldier would normally do or any trainee would normally do.

757
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 3: And he died as a result of this.

758
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 2: And we have to remember the point I don't think

759
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: we hit here that I know all of our fellow

760
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: listeners are thinking about during this exploration today. These are kids,

761
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: these are these are teenagers, you know, they're They're put

762
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: in an environment like you mentioned, Matt, that has a

763
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 2: lot in common uh, hormonally and socially with things like

764
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: fraternities or college days. So there's partying right and and

765
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: partying alone. And like everybody who's ever been that age.

766
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 1: Uh, I ask you.

767
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: You don't have to tell us about it, but I

768
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: ask you to think back to all the dumb stuff

769
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: you did as a kid.

770
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 1: Uh.

771
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: And does that mean does that mean that you should

772
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: have died?

773
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't.

774
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: And and I think you know, to that point about

775
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 2: diving into the full extent of these people's personal lives,

776
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: I think sometimes investigation no, you know what, why couch it?

777
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: I know sometimes that investigations can can use that that

778
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 2: information as a kind of posthumous victim blaming, which is.

779
00:48:58,880 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: Reprehensible.

780
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: I mean that it's unclean, but it happens in multiple

781
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 2: cases far beyond the deep cut four. I'm interested in

782
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: hearing you guys ideas on this. I mean, do you

783
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: think the UK and the US. I don't want to

784
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: be unfair. The UK has a huge problem with their reports.

785
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 2: We were talking about this a little bit off air.

786
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: They have a habit of, like reports on child abuse rings,

787
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: have a series of inquests and very formal, official sounding

788
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: language that lead nowhere, and the reports disappear and the

789
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 2: evidence is gone, and they hope that the news cycle

790
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 2: moves on. Do you guys think that there will be

791
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: revelations on this Deep Cut four case or do you

792
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: think it's going to be, you know, like Operation U

793
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: Tree or something just consigned to history.

794
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: I don't know.

795
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: Well, if you think about the case of Cheryl, she

796
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: died in ninety five and there was still stuff coming

797
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 3: out in twenty sixteen, But there are these kinds of

798
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 3: inquests that you're describing, where it's a deep background look

799
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 3: at what was happening in her life up into the

800
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 3: point when she allegedly committed suicide, looking at every minute

801
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: detail of her personal life, the terrible things that had

802
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 3: happened to her, the consequences of those things, how she

803
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 3: dealt with them, how other people and her family dealt

804
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 3: with them, her personal relationships. To your point about you know,

805
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: essentially using that information to victim blame, which I would

806
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 3: say it absolutely has been seen to function in that

807
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 3: way in the past. I just wonder how you guys

808
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 3: would try and prove that someone committed suicide or not

809
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 3: without looking at their past of you know, possibly self harm,

810
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: of suffering from depression, of their personal interpersonal relationships. I

811
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: don't know how you would, at least after the fact,

812
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: especially years after the fact, how you would be able

813
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 3: to prove one way or.

814
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 4: The other if it was suicide if you didn't do that.

815
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 4: Did we discuss Ben what you had mentioned off air

816
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 4: about the five gunshot, wounds to the chest, the justification

817
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 4: for that. That's the one that blew me away, and

818
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: we said we were gonna come back to Sean and

819
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 4: his suicide note and some of the weirdness surrounding that scenario.

820
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 4: But wasn't it determined that it was an automatic blast

821
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 4: or something like that, that the gun was an automatic

822
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 4: mode and so it shot a spray of bullets at him.

823
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct.

824
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: That was the official conclusion of one of the internal

825
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: inquests or internal investigations.

826
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. It's interesting because that story too, goes through a

827
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 4: couple of different iterations when you read about it, where

828
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 4: there's one version that says that he fired shots at

829
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 4: another officer, and then that he was talked down, He

830
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 4: was attempted to be talked down from, like, you know,

831
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 4: taking his own life, and then he did it in

832
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 4: view of another officer. And it's a little like you said, Ben,

833
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 4: reading these documents can be very a little tricky. So

834
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure if I was, if I'm interpreting

835
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 4: this correctly, but that that's what I saw. I don't

836
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: know if you guys have had any other research materials

837
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 4: about that case.

838
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 3: Well, the only thing I would bring up here would

839
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 3: be potential motive for covering up a homicide within an

840
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: army facility like that, And I think just it's worth

841
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 3: a quick discussion here. Think about the pr blowback that

842
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 3: would happen if soldiers under your care. As a commanding officer,

843
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 3: you've got let's say eighty of these lower ranking soldiers

844
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 3: under your care, you find out that there was a

845
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 3: firefight between a couple of your students essentially they're basically students.

846
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: There's a physical firefight between your students and one of

847
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 3: them died being shot five times. Would you, you know,

848
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 3: report that officially, as in the students that I was

849
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 3: meant to be looking after shot at each other and

850
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: one of them killed another one, or would you try

851
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 3: to make it look like a suicide. I'm not saying

852
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 3: that that's definitely what happened. I'm not saying that that

853
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 3: is what would happen. I'm just saying that is a

854
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 3: I would say, a possible motivation to want to make

855
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: something like that look like a suicide and officially become

856
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 3: a suicide.

857
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. And you know, another interesting thing about his case

858
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 4: is that there was a suicide note that was found,

859
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 4: but there are some inconsistencies with that, and according to

860
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 4: the note, this is what the note said to Sergeant

861
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 4: gave again again that the kind of villainous figure that

862
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 4: we've talked about. I'm sorry for what I'm doing, but

863
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 4: I just can't accept being discharged. I'm too embarrassed to

864
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 4: go home, and I don't want to be on Civvy Street,

865
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 4: and I don't want to have a factory job. I

866
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 4: just wanted a career in the army. I know it's

867
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 4: my fault for things I've done wrong. Only if I

868
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 4: got a week's leave when I applied for things I

869
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 4: could have been it could have been different. I could

870
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 4: have calmed down instead of building problems up and then

871
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 4: getting drunk and bursting into flames.

872
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: It's terrible to read.

873
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: So here we are and now now we're we pass

874
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 2: this to you, fellow conspiracy realist. What do you think

875
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: are these tragedies?

876
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely? What is there a cover up of foot uh?

877
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: Do you, like the parents of these of these victims

878
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: believe that to be the case? Or do you think

879
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's just a matter of tragedy and

880
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: perhaps well intentioned incompetence on the part of some investigators,

881
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: who are you know, of course themselves human and therefore fallible.

882
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: Or are these deaths the result of enormous stress leading

883
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: to suicidal acts? Or are some of these deaths homicide?

884
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: If so, are these homicides in some way linked? And

885
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 2: perhaps most importantly, what happens next? It's twenty twenty and

886
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: none of these have been solved to universal satisfaction. We

887
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: would love to hear your thoughts. You can find us

888
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can

889
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 2: find us on the other one Instagram.

890
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: Sorry, guys, yes, we're conspiracy stuff on most of those

891
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 3: conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Just mentioning here. As we

892
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 3: said at the top of the show, there is a

893
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 3: ton more that you can dig into with each one

894
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 3: of these people's deaths, and we recommend you do that.

895
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 3: If you feel so inclined, and if you find something

896
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 3: that you feel needs to be brought to our attention

897
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 3: and the rest of us listening, please send it our way.

898
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 2: One last important note here, it's something we endeavor to

899
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: include at the end of any episode dealing with this content.

900
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: Suicide is real. It is a real and serious thing.

901
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: If you or a loved one are currently quarreling with

902
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: or combating suicidal ideation, you are not alone. You are

903
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: worth it. There are resources out there specifically for you.

904
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: We like to recommend the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It

905
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 2: is available twenty four hours a day. Here is the

906
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: number one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five. Again,

907
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: that's one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five.

908
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 4: Thanks Ben. I think that's that's a really important resource

909
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 4: to have. If anyone out there knows anybody that's going

910
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 4: through any of this stuff, I would also just say

911
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 4: it's just be a be a resource yourself, if you know.

912
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not always apparent, but if you see

913
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 4: morning signs, especially with someone that's very close to you,

914
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 4: just check on people and make sure they're doing okay,

915
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 4: and just just try your best to be supportive and understanding,

916
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 4: because sometimes people are suffering in silence and then they

917
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 4: don't want anybody to know. But I think it's more

918
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 4: meaningful than one might realize, you know, when someone sees

919
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 4: you and really tries to connect in that way.

920
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, the last thing I would put here is you

921
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 3: can also go to Samaritans dot org s A M

922
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 3: A r I a n S dot org, where you

923
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: can talk to somebody three hundred and sixty five days

924
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 3: a year, twenty four hours a day if you're in

925
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 3: need to call them please.

926
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: And if you have thoughts on this episode or any

927
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: of the topics covered, idiot, we would like to hear

928
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: from you. You don't have to use social media if

929
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: that's not your bag of badgers. We also have a

930
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: number where you can call us twenty four hours a

931
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: day and leave a message, especially with information on this

932
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: or any other topic, if the spirit so moves you.

933
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 2: We always like to give our own number out here.

934
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can call us. Our number is one eight

935
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: three three st d w y t K. You can

936
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 3: leave a message. You got three minutes anything you want

937
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 3: to say, We're here to listen to. If you don't

938
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 3: want to do any of that stuff. You don't want

939
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 3: social media, you don't want to call, but you do

940
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 3: want to send us information, please send us a good

941
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 3: old fashioned email.

942
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

943
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

944
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

945
00:58:54,400 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.