WEBVTT - A Hidden Reason Behind France's "Yellow Vest" Protests 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.396 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.476 --> 0:00:26.436 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:31.716 I'm Noah Feldman. This week we talk about France. When 0:00:31.716 --> 0:00:34.036 we Americans hear the word French, we often think that 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:37.156 the next word is supposed to be revolution. In our imagination, 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:39.636 France is a place where the revolution didn't just happen 0:00:39.876 --> 0:00:42.996 in seventeen eighty nine, but happens every so often ever since. 0:00:43.756 --> 0:00:47.116 Turns out, the French think about themselves exactly the same way. 0:00:47.876 --> 0:00:53.796 Starting last November, protesters wearing yellow safety vests began to 0:00:53.916 --> 0:00:57.956 block rotaries and roundabouts all over France, and eventually they 0:00:58.036 --> 0:01:01.716 marched on Paris, where they talked seriously and threw stones 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:05.036 and made a protest about a whole range of economic 0:01:05.156 --> 0:01:08.396 issues that were bothering them. The protests continued and the 0:01:08.436 --> 0:01:11.996 French present, Emanuel Marcran was required to take major steps 0:01:12.036 --> 0:01:16.356 in response. And since today is Bastille Day, the day 0:01:16.356 --> 0:01:20.036 that France celebrates as the recognition of its own revolutionary independence, 0:01:20.236 --> 0:01:22.676 we thought this was a perfect time to review the 0:01:22.716 --> 0:01:26.316 movement from beginning to end. To do that, we're joined 0:01:26.396 --> 0:01:30.076 today by Ann Yes Poirier, a French journalist based in 0:01:30.116 --> 0:01:33.436 the UK who wrote a wonderful article about her uncle 0:01:33.556 --> 0:01:37.836 Jojo and his role in the Giles Jean or yellow 0:01:37.876 --> 0:01:40.676 vest protests. And yes, thank you so much for being 0:01:40.676 --> 0:01:44.076 with us my pleasure. I want to ask about the 0:01:44.116 --> 0:01:48.956 concrete element of the metaphor of the yellow vest. What 0:01:49.036 --> 0:01:51.636 are they for? Why did the French carry Giles Jean 0:01:51.756 --> 0:01:56.676 in their cars. It's actually compulsory to have a yellow 0:01:56.756 --> 0:02:02.316 vest or high visibility jacket in your car in case 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:08.036 your car breaks down. It means that you have to 0:02:08.836 --> 0:02:12.076 pass your car as safely as possible, put on your jacket, 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:17.076 leave the car and put yourself in a safe place. 0:02:17.996 --> 0:02:20.796 So the upshot is that everyone who has a car 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:23.796 has a yellow vest, making it a very simple thing 0:02:23.876 --> 0:02:26.836 to put on as part of a mode of protest. 0:02:26.956 --> 0:02:30.596 But it was also connected to the origin of these protests, 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:34.276 which began with a tax on petrol or gasoline. Yes 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:41.556 completely a car drivers basically very angry at a carbon 0:02:41.636 --> 0:02:45.876 tax on petrol and diesel started the movement. Hence the 0:02:46.516 --> 0:02:50.956 yellow vest probably And also you know it's a metaphor. 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:53.756 It's a kind of call for help. You know, you're 0:02:53.796 --> 0:02:56.876 putting your yellow vest because you want to be seen. 0:02:57.596 --> 0:02:59.836 You want to be seen in order to be helped. 0:03:00.516 --> 0:03:04.236 So in a way, it was very appropriate symbol, if 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:06.516 you'd like, of that movement, at least when it started. 0:03:06.796 --> 0:03:09.596 I wanted to ask about that petrol tax, the tax 0:03:09.636 --> 0:03:12.956 on diesel that started this, the carbon tax. Now seen 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:17.156 from the outside, that tax looked like France acting is 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:20.876 a good global citizen, saying we're going to reduce carbon 0:03:20.916 --> 0:03:24.476 emissions in order to do our part to contribute to 0:03:24.956 --> 0:03:28.196 the reduction of global warming. All economists that you speak 0:03:28.196 --> 0:03:30.356 to tell you that the only realistic way to reduce 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:34.396 carbon emissions is to tax them. And so the government 0:03:34.396 --> 0:03:38.436 to France decided under Manuel Marquante to adopt such a tax. 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:45.196 Were the protesters being anti environmentalist in protesting this tax 0:03:45.316 --> 0:03:50.196 or was there another nuance to it? Well, actually it 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:56.036 came as the last straw, if you'd like, because it 0:03:56.156 --> 0:04:01.356 started early in the summer twenty eighteen, when the speed 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:07.396 limits on French roads was reduced from ninety to eighty kilometers, 0:04:07.996 --> 0:04:12.236 and that raged a lot of people in provincial France, 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:15.356 if you'd like, especially people who rely on their cars 0:04:15.436 --> 0:04:19.236 to go about their day, to drop their children's score, 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:22.636 or to go to their work. Then there was a 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:28.116 hike in petrol and diesel prices. Then there was also 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:32.276 more if you'd like, compulsory measures for when you do 0:04:32.316 --> 0:04:35.796 anmot when you have to get to certificate that your 0:04:36.156 --> 0:04:38.916 car is in good shape, which you have to do 0:04:39.156 --> 0:04:45.836 regularly in France, and there have been more implemented just 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:50.476 a few months later. And so that carbon tax was 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:54.436 really the last draw it was. I don't think on 0:04:54.476 --> 0:04:58.396 its own it would have created any movement in particular, 0:04:58.876 --> 0:05:03.636 but it came after a long series of measures that 0:05:03.716 --> 0:05:10.316 were deemed affecting primarily car drivers. And we're not talking 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:12.796 about you know, city dwell as, we're not talking about 0:05:12.836 --> 0:05:18.636 metropolitan farms if you'd like people living in major cities 0:05:19.036 --> 0:05:21.516 or Paris, because they don't need to rely on their 0:05:21.516 --> 0:05:24.156 car to go about their day every day. We're talking 0:05:24.196 --> 0:05:29.276 about people in rural France. And they felt, you know, 0:05:29.476 --> 0:05:32.276 in a way targeted. So in the first instance, this 0:05:32.396 --> 0:05:35.036 felt like an attack on drivers, and in the French 0:05:35.036 --> 0:05:38.316 context that also means an attack on rural people, people 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:41.836 who are not in the elite centers of the city 0:05:41.956 --> 0:05:44.276 and people who rely on their on their cars to 0:05:44.316 --> 0:05:47.356 get around. And indeed, the first form of the protest 0:05:48.116 --> 0:05:51.196 was to block roundabouts or rotaries as we call them 0:05:51.196 --> 0:05:55.796 in American English, and block traffic from traveling through at all. 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:58.796 And that too connected to the idea of freedom to drive. 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:00.676 And it's as though the protesters were saying, if you're 0:06:00.836 --> 0:06:03.036 going to impinge on our freedom to drive, then we're 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:06.876 going to impinge on your freedom to get around the country. 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:09.956 Then the protests moved into the city and some began 0:06:09.996 --> 0:06:13.436 in Paris itself. Tell us about how that happened, Well, 0:06:13.956 --> 0:06:19.036 protesters didn't come from you know, the cities or Paris. 0:06:19.076 --> 0:06:22.436 They came to Paris on Saturdays, if you'd like, like 0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:26.436 tourists a day trip to protest um. It was never 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:30.396 a Persian revolt. It was very much a provincial revolt. 0:06:30.436 --> 0:06:33.116 And and you know, at the beginning, we use the 0:06:33.156 --> 0:06:36.396 words of Jacques Lie if you'd like, which is sort 0:06:36.396 --> 0:06:41.676 of peasant the seventeenth century peasant revolts against a centralized power, 0:06:41.876 --> 0:06:45.356 and those are typically driven by genuine starvation. I mean, 0:06:45.636 --> 0:06:49.476 that's that's the that's the old president, of course, but 0:06:49.676 --> 0:06:53.436 it was also revolt against the local elite, if you'd like. 0:06:54.196 --> 0:06:57.436 So so the first Yellow Vest, if you'd like, when 0:06:57.916 --> 0:07:02.396 they started running on social networks and they said, okay, 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:05.356 well we need to strike. We're going to strike on Saturday, 0:07:05.436 --> 0:07:08.956 the seventeenth of November twenty and eighteen. That will be 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:12.356 our first action throughout the country. And there were quite 0:07:12.356 --> 0:07:15.676 a lot of them. Were just under three hundred thousand. 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:19.596 I mean, by French standards, it's not enormous, but it's 0:07:19.836 --> 0:07:23.396 enough for the country to stop and to think, okay, 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:28.916 what's happening here? And so those first Yellow vest belong 0:07:28.996 --> 0:07:32.716 to what in Britain we would call the squeezed middlewa 0:07:32.716 --> 0:07:35.636 if you'd like. That is to say, not destitute, not 0:07:35.756 --> 0:07:38.076 you know, very poor people, not at all, but not 0:07:38.156 --> 0:07:41.396 reach either. And in francing means a lot of people. 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:46.396 We're talking about lower middle class middle classes, people who 0:07:46.516 --> 0:07:49.196 perhaps are too rich to get you know, a lot 0:07:49.236 --> 0:07:55.636 of benefits and not written obviously to be able to 0:07:55.676 --> 0:08:00.356 afford living in places where they don't have to rely 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:04.236 entirely on their car. I mean, class consciousness and class 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:08.876 politics are deeply embedded in the historical French story. But 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:13.436 when one thinks about that, historically, one doesn't think about 0:08:13.476 --> 0:08:17.156 the squeezed middle One thinks about the rises of the peasants. 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:19.716 As you described in the pre revolutionary period. One thinks 0:08:19.716 --> 0:08:22.116 about the rise of the bourgeoisie, which is a kind 0:08:22.116 --> 0:08:25.836 of rising middle class. One thinks about an aristocratic elite, 0:08:26.516 --> 0:08:29.316 or later a technocratic elite. But there hasn't been a 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:32.116 central place. Correct me if I'm wrong in the long 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:39.396 French narrative of class for people like you're describing, is that? 0:08:39.596 --> 0:08:42.636 Is that so? And if it is, what's the French 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:45.756 term that or what language have have French commentators or 0:08:45.756 --> 0:08:49.396 observers used to describe this social class? I mean, you're 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.116 you're You're right in a sense that it was novel, 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:56.836 and it took time for sociologist, for demographers to grasp 0:08:57.116 --> 0:08:59.436 the movements, and one of them actually said, it's not 0:08:59.516 --> 0:09:02.956 a class, it's a mass. What's the difference between those things? 0:09:03.556 --> 0:09:07.836 In the sense that poinstante. If you take the age 0:09:08.036 --> 0:09:12.076 of the Yuno vest, actually you had people from the 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:16.676 age of seventeen to the age of seventy seven, really 0:09:16.716 --> 0:09:20.956 people from all ages, all ages. Also a lot of artisans, 0:09:21.036 --> 0:09:25.396 a lot of self employed, also some entrepreneurs. You know 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:28.556 my that's why perhaps well took about my own call later. 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.716 But he's a self made man, so it makes him 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:34.916 in a way, you know, part of the year of 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:37.796 the People, if you'd like it. Also, it doesn't come 0:09:37.836 --> 0:09:43.356 from the aristocracy, comes from middle lower bourgeoisie as say. 0:09:43.356 --> 0:09:45.476 It was, you know, and a lot of men and 0:09:45.596 --> 0:09:48.996 a lot of women, a lot of also single parents 0:09:49.156 --> 0:09:53.276 and single mothers who had difficulty making ends meet, a 0:09:53.276 --> 0:09:56.876 lot of professionals from you know, a lot of nurses, 0:09:57.556 --> 0:10:00.796 some teachers, so you know, it was a mix, a 0:10:00.956 --> 0:10:05.276 very very diverse mix. So it's quite difficult to apply 0:10:05.396 --> 0:10:09.716 the class system to it. And that's why also resorted 0:10:09.756 --> 0:10:14.676 to a very English, as in British term disguised middle class. Right, 0:10:14.716 --> 0:10:16.476 But you don't think it's it's not. Actually it doesn't 0:10:16.476 --> 0:10:19.916 exactly captured. But I do have the sense from from 0:10:19.916 --> 0:10:24.236 reading that most of the people who have come out 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:29.316 for the protests do experience themselves as suffering from economic privation. 0:10:29.396 --> 0:10:33.196 It's not impoverished, but barely making it in some sense. 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:35.076 And it seemed to me that that was why your 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:37.956 story was so fascinating, precisely because your uncle didn't fit 0:10:38.036 --> 0:10:42.556 into that category. No, you didn't. My uncle Jo is 0:10:43.716 --> 0:10:48.796 in his sixties. Um, he's well off. He was the 0:10:48.956 --> 0:10:53.716 CEO of a large European Company, although he belongs also 0:10:54.916 --> 0:11:00.836 to you know, category of retired people who do have 0:11:00.916 --> 0:11:04.476 wives for their children and grandchildren, as somebody who lives 0:11:04.516 --> 0:11:09.476 in the provinces, somebody who feels quite lonely and whos corvet. 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:15.716 Sort of fraternity on those roundabouts, and a lot of 0:11:15.716 --> 0:11:22.476 people started talking two neighbors they wouldn't talk to otherwise. So, 0:11:22.916 --> 0:11:25.836 especially at the beginning of the movement, it was really 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:31.036 striking to see that there was this fraternity which is 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:35.756 so French. And also given the very striking figure of cafes. 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:39.676 You know, sixty years ago there were two hundred thousand 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:43.596 cafes in France. There are only now thirty six thousand. 0:11:44.676 --> 0:11:49.036 And in sharp contrast, the roundabouts didn't exist fifty years 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:51.876 ago and now we've got more than fifty thousand. So 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:56.276 the roundabout became very much a place for conviviality. I mean, 0:11:56.276 --> 0:12:01.396 they built a sort of canteen you know, and tents, 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:05.036 and they you know, for weeks, because now the movement 0:12:05.036 --> 0:12:07.756 has disappeared from the roundabouts, but for weeks, weeks and 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:12.156 months they would converge and they would have their little 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:15.956 commune and debating societies on the round about. So there. 0:12:15.956 --> 0:12:19.636 When you talk about fraternity, you're translating the French word fertonite, 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:24.956 which for Americans means something like solidarity or a way 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:29.916 of feeling some sense of connectedness to other people. And 0:12:29.956 --> 0:12:32.676 so you're suggesting, if I understand you correctly, that one 0:12:32.716 --> 0:12:36.356 thing about this particular protest movement is that it offered 0:12:36.396 --> 0:12:39.916 some opportunity for connection to people who might feel in 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:42.956 certain ways isolated, and that they actually could take the 0:12:43.036 --> 0:12:45.676 roundabout of the rotary which they had taken over, and 0:12:45.836 --> 0:12:48.716 make it for a Saturday into a place to hang out, 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:50.556 a place to interact with each other, in a place 0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:53.916 to feel human connection, like you belong to a common project, 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:57.756 which in French terms, is a crucial element of national identity. 0:12:57.756 --> 0:13:01.116 It's one of the three big commitments of the French, 0:13:01.436 --> 0:13:05.316 the French model completely. And so we're talking about this 0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:10.076 mass rather than class of people who also feel you know, 0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:14.196 underprivileged or vulnerable because they are lonely. A lot of 0:13:14.196 --> 0:13:18.556 single parents, a lot of lonely retired people, and you know, 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:24.316 living in isolation in provincial France and often only having 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:28.716 a relationship through social networks in front of their computer screen. 0:13:29.196 --> 0:13:34.156 And then suddenly they rekindled with, as you said, very rightly, 0:13:34.156 --> 0:13:38.076 a very French way of life, because those cafes that 0:13:38.196 --> 0:13:41.476 have disappeared through you know, the last sixty years in 0:13:41.516 --> 0:13:44.756 France haven't disappeared from city centers. There's still plenty of 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:46.756 cafes in Paris. It's out in the countryside where you 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:50.316 don't exactly you know, in villages there used to be 0:13:50.436 --> 0:13:53.916 many cafes and now you know you are there's perhaps 0:13:54.036 --> 0:13:58.876 one left, but often there's none. So we're talking about 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:04.316 a disconnection between part of France that is successful, young, metropolitan, 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:09.636 that travels abroad, that is a sort of the radiant 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:15.276 face of globalization. Just like President Michael, who is young, 0:14:15.476 --> 0:14:19.156 who is elite, who is sophisticated, who wears tailored suits, 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:23.076 who is comfortable in multiple languages. He's the outward facing 0:14:23.436 --> 0:14:25.756 picture of the modern French elite, and he's very far 0:14:25.916 --> 0:14:30.476 from the world of the small provincial town where the 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:34.316 cafes have closed and there are jobs, but maybe not 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:37.756 enough jobs for everybody completely. And that's why also, I 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:40.756 don't know if you remember at the beginning, this hatred, 0:14:41.996 --> 0:14:47.236 which we didn't quite understand because it was so it 0:14:47.356 --> 0:14:51.756 came from the guts you know, and this hatred against Michael. 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:55.876 The figure of Michael was to do with what he personified, 0:14:56.316 --> 0:14:59.676 and you're saying is a symbol of the elite. Of 0:14:59.716 --> 0:15:02.436 course he is, because he's now the president. It's also 0:15:02.556 --> 0:15:08.996 very young, and somehow they disliked that fact, if you' 0:15:09.396 --> 0:15:13.196 because at the yellow vests, I thought, rightly or wrongly 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:18.236 that they belong to the losing France, if you like. 0:15:19.076 --> 0:15:22.036 So here it gets really really interesting and also really 0:15:22.076 --> 0:15:25.596 complicated for outsiders to understand. So let's try to figure 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.756 out a little bit the politics side here, because until 0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:32.356 now you've described very movingly, in fact, the sort of 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:37.116 psychological experience of people who feel that the center doesn't 0:15:37.156 --> 0:15:40.036 care about them and that the elites aren't thinking about them, 0:15:40.036 --> 0:15:45.036 and that makes them sound extremely sympathetic. Politically, though, the 0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:49.036 movement did, as you've just described, focus on a kind 0:15:49.036 --> 0:15:54.236 of great anger at the French president and at the 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:59.556 idea that his politics somehow stood for making France in 0:15:59.636 --> 0:16:03.556 some way more like the United States more market driven. 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:08.876 Marquin's first major reforms involved changing French law to make 0:16:08.876 --> 0:16:12.436 it easier for employers to fire employees, which has been 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:15.036 very difficult under French law. That's a kind of market 0:16:15.116 --> 0:16:20.036 oriented reform, and so the criticisms and the protests seem 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:22.516 to take the form, in part at least, of an 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:28.516 attack on this tendency of Maquant's to be efficient, rational 0:16:28.636 --> 0:16:32.036 and market driven and in that sense distant from the 0:16:32.116 --> 0:16:38.156 more centralized, organized, top down French system. Have any of 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:41.756 the major French political parties that criticize Macran been able 0:16:41.756 --> 0:16:45.356 to capitalize on the movement? For example, Has the French 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:48.596 far right, which in some ways you would think would 0:16:48.596 --> 0:16:51.516 have shared a lot of the interests of the protesters, 0:16:51.916 --> 0:16:55.076 you know, peripheral, not necessarily from the center of Paris, 0:16:55.516 --> 0:16:57.756 appealing to people who aren't the poorest but are also 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:01.476 not the rich elites. Have they Has anyone been able 0:17:01.476 --> 0:17:05.396 to capitalize on the movement for political gain, Well, it's 0:17:05.996 --> 0:17:09.236 the heart of the matter. Right from the start, our 0:17:09.356 --> 0:17:14.316 rights and the far left and their respective leader Main 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.796 Lupin for the far right and Jean Luc Minochen for 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:23.236 the far left try to stuff on the way of 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:26.036 the yellow Vest. They appeared with them, they put on 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:31.276 yellow jackets, but the yellow Vest didn't want to be 0:17:31.356 --> 0:17:35.476 associated with them, at least to start with. They were 0:17:35.636 --> 0:17:39.116 a leader less movement. But the problem, of course is 0:17:39.196 --> 0:17:45.356 when you constituted movement, there's a moment when you need leaders. 0:17:45.396 --> 0:17:49.156 But it's time they elected leaders. They were designed, they 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:53.636 were rejected, and when the government said why don't you 0:17:53.676 --> 0:17:56.556 send your representative so that we know what you would like, 0:17:56.876 --> 0:17:59.836 so that we can stop the violence on the Saturday 0:18:00.156 --> 0:18:04.436 protest and we can start talks, they didn't send anyone. 0:18:04.596 --> 0:18:09.636 So it's never became anything else than a rebel, if 0:18:09.676 --> 0:18:14.476 you'd like. One very interesting thing is that a lot 0:18:14.516 --> 0:18:17.636 of Yellow Vest when you met them, said I have 0:18:17.756 --> 0:18:21.196 never voted in my life before, But more importantly, a 0:18:21.196 --> 0:18:23.836 lot of them said it's the first time we take 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:27.316 to the streets. So it's true that we're talking about 0:18:27.796 --> 0:18:32.756 politically disenfranchised citizens. And the far right and far lept 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:37.836 were very eager to capitalize on the Yellow Vest anger 0:18:38.556 --> 0:18:42.916 and they felt, they completely felt they were. At the 0:18:43.236 --> 0:18:50.516 latest European elections, two Yellow Vests sort of lists people 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:55.316 could vote for, and they got zero point five percent 0:18:55.916 --> 0:18:59.756 of the vote between the two. So in a way 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:03.116 it's you know, it's the death of the Yellow Vest 0:19:03.156 --> 0:19:07.996 rebellion because they never managed to become anything else. That's 0:19:08.036 --> 0:19:10.996 completely fascinating in its own right, the idea that a 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:14.836 movement had a desire to be heard, that the participants 0:19:14.876 --> 0:19:18.796 had a desire to be known, that they rejected again 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:20.716 in a sort of inspiring way, the idea that they 0:19:20.756 --> 0:19:22.716 could be co opted by either the far left or 0:19:22.756 --> 0:19:25.636 the far right. But then there's something that seems almost 0:19:25.636 --> 0:19:29.356 tragic about the idea that the movement simply peters out 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:32.676 and gets close to dying by virtue of the fact 0:19:32.756 --> 0:19:35.116 that they've been heard, They've said their piece, the whole 0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:36.676 world has looked at them, the whole world has paid 0:19:36.676 --> 0:19:39.476 attention to them. France has paid attention to them. But 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:43.596 they have they fundamentally changed anything. Have they changed the 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:47.516 perspective on politics of any of the players, even if 0:19:47.556 --> 0:19:51.276 they haven't ultimately joined. Is there going to be a 0:19:51.316 --> 0:19:54.996 long term effect on the language or the ideas of 0:19:55.156 --> 0:20:00.316 French politics. We're talking about you know, people here in 0:20:00.396 --> 0:20:06.756 farms who asked for more public services and less taxes. 0:20:07.956 --> 0:20:11.556 How do you square that? Um? You know, nobody can. 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:17.836 And they also wanted a kind of direct democracy that 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:21.316 is in my view, the opposite of democracy. For instance, 0:20:21.596 --> 0:20:24.796 they said, oh, we we want to bring down the government, 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:27.756 we want my gone to resign. We don't want to 0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:31.876 have a National Assembly anymore. We just want direct democracy. 0:20:32.316 --> 0:20:36.036 We'll just vote on the internet, you know, through our 0:20:36.276 --> 0:20:39.836 Facebook or whatever. On laws. You know, we should have 0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:43.716 a system of referendum, for instance, for every single idea. 0:20:43.756 --> 0:20:46.916 I mean, things like this the universe are symptom rather 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:52.356 than you know, giving any answers to an anger, it's 0:20:52.396 --> 0:20:56.156 it's a feeling. And they certainly didn't come up with 0:20:56.236 --> 0:21:05.116 any possible rational political recipes or ideas that could be 0:21:05.476 --> 0:21:08.356 later implemented. But is that asking too much of the 0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:12.116 movement to to be If they were rational politicians, they 0:21:12.116 --> 0:21:15.036 would form a political party and they would you participate 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:19.276 in electoral politics, or they would be journalists or commentators 0:21:19.476 --> 0:21:22.156 or you know, political scientists sitting in a seminar room 0:21:22.156 --> 0:21:25.996 and offering theories. That doesn't sound like what the movement 0:21:26.036 --> 0:21:29.036 was trying to be. Well, we still don't know what 0:21:29.076 --> 0:21:31.196 they were trying to be, because in a way we're 0:21:31.236 --> 0:21:35.276 still focusing on the early stage of the Yellow Ves movement, 0:21:35.756 --> 0:21:38.836 because perhaps we should also say that the Yellow Ves 0:21:38.876 --> 0:21:41.956 became extremely violent. Let's let's turn to that, and was 0:21:41.956 --> 0:21:45.156 the movement hijacked to some people say hijacked by thugs 0:21:45.236 --> 0:21:48.636 or anarchists from the right or the left. Yes, completely 0:21:50.156 --> 0:21:54.796 professional anarchist, professional thugs, which are very well known in 0:21:54.836 --> 0:21:58.196 SOMs and come from the extreme right and the extreme left. 0:21:58.796 --> 0:22:03.436 And so we're talking only about people who sort of insurrectional. 0:22:03.596 --> 0:22:06.636 And at some point, you know, there was I was 0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:11.396 in Paris, and I was present during the Saturday protest, 0:22:11.476 --> 0:22:15.716 and there was a sort of insurrectional perfume in the 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:20.436 air of Paris, but of course they were never they 0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:24.236 didn't have the number I should like to stay to 0:22:24.356 --> 0:22:27.796 coup because that's what they were calling for. So I 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:30.356 like the idea of an insurrectional perfume. It sounds like 0:22:30.436 --> 0:22:34.116 anacion would be the great name for a forever a 0:22:34.156 --> 0:22:36.476 new do or perfume. But what does that mean? Do 0:22:36.516 --> 0:22:39.036 you mean that feeling in the air as though let's 0:22:39.076 --> 0:22:42.676 go burn it all down? Oh? Yes, completely, Look I'm 0:22:42.716 --> 0:22:46.396 in my early forties. I've to take to the street. 0:22:46.516 --> 0:22:49.476 Is part of a It's a rite of passage for 0:22:49.596 --> 0:22:55.196 any French citizen. I've been to countless demonstrations in Paris, 0:22:55.836 --> 0:23:01.156 and the level of violence I experienced in the streets 0:23:01.196 --> 0:23:06.236 of Paris during the Saturday Yellow Vest, where unlike anything 0:23:06.276 --> 0:23:09.596 we've seen before, and even people who were old enough 0:23:09.636 --> 0:23:14.276 to attend sixty eight nineteen sixty eight demonstrations in Paris 0:23:14.436 --> 0:23:18.276 said the same, you know, simply because they wanted to kill. 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:21.796 When I say they the thirds that infiltrate to the 0:23:21.876 --> 0:23:26.476 Yellow Vest or some of the yellow Vests wanted to 0:23:26.516 --> 0:23:31.276 destroy and to also kill a policeman if they could. 0:23:31.836 --> 0:23:35.556 And two thousand policemen were actually injured, which is a 0:23:35.716 --> 0:23:39.316 very high figure for funds. Because don't forget the arts. 0:23:39.476 --> 0:23:42.196 We have mastered the art of demonstration. We know how 0:23:42.236 --> 0:23:44.956 to do this. It's very theatrical. Yes, everyone has a role, 0:23:45.036 --> 0:23:46.956 everyone knows what to do so that things don't get 0:23:46.956 --> 0:23:50.396 out of head completely and it can appear violent, but 0:23:50.516 --> 0:23:53.716 it's actually quite safe, or it used to be until 0:23:53.796 --> 0:23:56.756 the Yellow Vest. Because the Yellow Vest was about really 0:23:57.196 --> 0:24:00.956 very quickly on became about violence and pure violence. Even 0:24:00.996 --> 0:24:06.876 the police, the right police was very astruct by that. 0:24:08.036 --> 0:24:12.836 They actually didn't know how to react the first few Saturdays. 0:24:12.916 --> 0:24:17.516 Sometimes they were too passive and they were completely out 0:24:17.516 --> 0:24:20.996 of their depths if you'd like, and a lot of 0:24:21.076 --> 0:24:27.996 destruction took place of buildings, but also some protesters were 0:24:28.116 --> 0:24:33.236 hit by rubber bullets. Which is a non little sort 0:24:33.236 --> 0:24:36.836 of riot control guns that the French police is allowed 0:24:36.876 --> 0:24:39.956 to use. But so there were a lot of injured, 0:24:40.476 --> 0:24:44.156 a high high number of injured, but nobody died. And 0:24:44.196 --> 0:24:48.076 that's a miracle because the violence we all have seen 0:24:48.356 --> 0:24:52.916 industries of Paris was unlike anything we had seen in decades. 0:24:53.876 --> 0:24:56.956 Did the violence ultimately contribute to the discrediting of the 0:24:56.996 --> 0:25:00.596 movement completely? I mean, that's why the real Yellow best 0:25:00.676 --> 0:25:04.276 if you'd like the people who really had something to 0:25:04.316 --> 0:25:08.116 say and had perhaps you wanted to be helped by 0:25:08.156 --> 0:25:10.716 the government. In the end they were actually I think 0:25:10.716 --> 0:25:15.196 we should say that President macall actually gave seventeen billion 0:25:15.956 --> 0:25:21.556 euros worth of different benefits and tax incentives and bonuses 0:25:21.596 --> 0:25:25.556 and canceled the carbon tax. I mean it went much 0:25:25.596 --> 0:25:28.316 further than the original demands of the Yellow vests. I 0:25:28.356 --> 0:25:30.116 mean that goes to the question of the long run 0:25:30.236 --> 0:25:32.356 impact of the movement. It did have, at least any 0:25:32.356 --> 0:25:35.116 immediate Some of the movements demands, even if they were 0:25:35.156 --> 0:25:37.876 in co ed, were in fact mad oh matt and 0:25:38.116 --> 0:25:41.476 further than the original demands, because in France, that's the 0:25:41.476 --> 0:25:44.276 way it is when the people take to the streets 0:25:44.316 --> 0:25:50.116 in numbers. The government always responds, if you want a 0:25:50.156 --> 0:25:52.276 bit of history, we have to go back to the 0:25:52.316 --> 0:25:55.836 French Revolution. The legitimacy of the power in France lies 0:25:55.876 --> 0:25:59.356 with the people. Okay, in Britain it lies with the parliament. 0:25:59.636 --> 0:26:02.676 It's a question of history. It used to Oh yes, 0:26:02.716 --> 0:26:06.996 it used to until flexing. That's another story. But so 0:26:07.156 --> 0:26:10.156 to go back to France, you know, the poor is 0:26:10.196 --> 0:26:14.076 the power, and as a French citizen you know you 0:26:14.156 --> 0:26:18.876 have this power and you play with it. But the violence, 0:26:19.356 --> 0:26:23.516 to go back to your earlier question, meant that a 0:26:23.516 --> 0:26:26.996 lot of the early year now vests decided they had 0:26:27.076 --> 0:26:30.876 nothing to do with violence and the violent people, and 0:26:30.916 --> 0:26:34.556 they stayed at home. So from three hundred thousand people 0:26:34.756 --> 0:26:38.876 we very quickly went to what twenty thousand, So there 0:26:38.956 --> 0:26:42.036 was a natural trajectory. As it were, the people, or 0:26:42.076 --> 0:26:44.556 some of the people expressed themselves. They said they spoke 0:26:44.556 --> 0:26:49.036 on behalf of a broader people. The violence discredited the movement, 0:26:49.516 --> 0:26:54.196