1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,476 --> 00:00:26,436 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,876 --> 00:00:31,716 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This week we talk about France. When 4 00:00:31,716 --> 00:00:34,036 Speaker 1: we Americans hear the word French, we often think that 5 00:00:34,076 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 1: the next word is supposed to be revolution. In our imagination, 6 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: France is a place where the revolution didn't just happen 7 00:00:39,876 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: in seventeen eighty nine, but happens every so often ever since. 8 00:00:43,756 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: Turns out, the French think about themselves exactly the same way. 9 00:00:47,876 --> 00:00:53,796 Speaker 1: Starting last November, protesters wearing yellow safety vests began to 10 00:00:53,916 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 1: block rotaries and roundabouts all over France, and eventually they 11 00:00:58,036 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: marched on Paris, where they talked seriously and threw stones 12 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:05,036 Speaker 1: and made a protest about a whole range of economic 13 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 1: issues that were bothering them. The protests continued and the 14 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 1: French present, Emanuel Marcran was required to take major steps 15 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 1: in response. And since today is Bastille Day, the day 16 00:01:16,356 --> 00:01:20,036 Speaker 1: that France celebrates as the recognition of its own revolutionary independence, 17 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 1: we thought this was a perfect time to review the 18 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:26,316 Speaker 1: movement from beginning to end. To do that, we're joined 19 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: today by Ann Yes Poirier, a French journalist based in 20 00:01:30,116 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 1: the UK who wrote a wonderful article about her uncle 21 00:01:33,556 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 1: Jojo and his role in the Giles Jean or yellow 22 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,676 Speaker 1: vest protests. And yes, thank you so much for being 23 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:44,076 Speaker 1: with us my pleasure. I want to ask about the 24 00:01:44,116 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 1: concrete element of the metaphor of the yellow vest. What 25 00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:51,636 Speaker 1: are they for? Why did the French carry Giles Jean 26 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:56,676 Speaker 1: in their cars. It's actually compulsory to have a yellow 27 00:01:56,756 --> 00:02:02,316 Speaker 1: vest or high visibility jacket in your car in case 28 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 1: your car breaks down. It means that you have to 29 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:12,076 Speaker 1: pass your car as safely as possible, put on your jacket, 30 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 1: leave the car and put yourself in a safe place. 31 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 1: So the upshot is that everyone who has a car 32 00:02:21,076 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 1: has a yellow vest, making it a very simple thing 33 00:02:23,876 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: to put on as part of a mode of protest. 34 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:30,596 Speaker 1: But it was also connected to the origin of these protests, 35 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 1: which began with a tax on petrol or gasoline. Yes 36 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:41,556 Speaker 1: completely a car drivers basically very angry at a carbon 37 00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 1: tax on petrol and diesel started the movement. Hence the 38 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:50,956 Speaker 1: yellow vest probably And also you know it's a metaphor. 39 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 1: It's a kind of call for help. You know, you're 40 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:56,876 Speaker 1: putting your yellow vest because you want to be seen. 41 00:02:57,596 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 1: You want to be seen in order to be helped. 42 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 1: So in a way, it was very appropriate symbol, if 43 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:06,516 Speaker 1: you'd like, of that movement, at least when it started. 44 00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:09,596 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about that petrol tax, the tax 45 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: on diesel that started this, the carbon tax. Now seen 46 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 1: from the outside, that tax looked like France acting is 47 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:20,876 Speaker 1: a good global citizen, saying we're going to reduce carbon 48 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:24,476 Speaker 1: emissions in order to do our part to contribute to 49 00:03:24,956 --> 00:03:28,196 Speaker 1: the reduction of global warming. All economists that you speak 50 00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 1: to tell you that the only realistic way to reduce 51 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 1: carbon emissions is to tax them. And so the government 52 00:03:34,396 --> 00:03:38,436 Speaker 1: to France decided under Manuel Marquante to adopt such a tax. 53 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:45,196 Speaker 1: Were the protesters being anti environmentalist in protesting this tax 54 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: or was there another nuance to it? Well, actually it 55 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:56,036 Speaker 1: came as the last straw, if you'd like, because it 56 00:03:56,156 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 1: started early in the summer twenty eighteen, when the speed 57 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 1: limits on French roads was reduced from ninety to eighty kilometers, 58 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 1: and that raged a lot of people in provincial France, 59 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:15,356 Speaker 1: if you'd like, especially people who rely on their cars 60 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 1: to go about their day, to drop their children's score, 61 00:04:19,876 --> 00:04:22,636 Speaker 1: or to go to their work. Then there was a 62 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 1: hike in petrol and diesel prices. Then there was also 63 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:32,276 Speaker 1: more if you'd like, compulsory measures for when you do 64 00:04:32,316 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 1: anmot when you have to get to certificate that your 65 00:04:36,156 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 1: car is in good shape, which you have to do 66 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: regularly in France, and there have been more implemented just 67 00:04:46,276 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 1: a few months later. And so that carbon tax was 68 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 1: really the last draw it was. I don't think on 69 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: its own it would have created any movement in particular, 70 00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:03,636 Speaker 1: but it came after a long series of measures that 71 00:05:03,716 --> 00:05:10,316 Speaker 1: were deemed affecting primarily car drivers. And we're not talking 72 00:05:10,356 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 1: about you know, city dwell as, we're not talking about 73 00:05:12,836 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 1: metropolitan farms if you'd like people living in major cities 74 00:05:19,036 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 1: or Paris, because they don't need to rely on their 75 00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:24,156 Speaker 1: car to go about their day every day. We're talking 76 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: about people in rural France. And they felt, you know, 77 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:32,276 Speaker 1: in a way targeted. So in the first instance, this 78 00:05:32,396 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: felt like an attack on drivers, and in the French 79 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: context that also means an attack on rural people, people 80 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:41,836 Speaker 1: who are not in the elite centers of the city 81 00:05:41,956 --> 00:05:44,276 Speaker 1: and people who rely on their on their cars to 82 00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 1: get around. And indeed, the first form of the protest 83 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:51,196 Speaker 1: was to block roundabouts or rotaries as we call them 84 00:05:51,196 --> 00:05:55,796 Speaker 1: in American English, and block traffic from traveling through at all. 85 00:05:55,916 --> 00:05:58,796 Speaker 1: And that too connected to the idea of freedom to drive. 86 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: And it's as though the protesters were saying, if you're 87 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 1: going to impinge on our freedom to drive, then we're 88 00:06:03,076 --> 00:06:06,876 Speaker 1: going to impinge on your freedom to get around the country. 89 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:09,956 Speaker 1: Then the protests moved into the city and some began 90 00:06:09,996 --> 00:06:13,436 Speaker 1: in Paris itself. Tell us about how that happened, Well, 91 00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:19,036 Speaker 1: protesters didn't come from you know, the cities or Paris. 92 00:06:19,076 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 1: They came to Paris on Saturdays, if you'd like, like 93 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: tourists a day trip to protest um. It was never 94 00:06:26,476 --> 00:06:30,396 Speaker 1: a Persian revolt. It was very much a provincial revolt. 95 00:06:30,436 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 1: And and you know, at the beginning, we use the 96 00:06:33,156 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 1: words of Jacques Lie if you'd like, which is sort 97 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:41,676 Speaker 1: of peasant the seventeenth century peasant revolts against a centralized power, 98 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:45,356 Speaker 1: and those are typically driven by genuine starvation. I mean, 99 00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:49,476 Speaker 1: that's that's the that's the old president, of course, but 100 00:06:49,676 --> 00:06:53,436 Speaker 1: it was also revolt against the local elite, if you'd like. 101 00:06:54,196 --> 00:06:57,436 Speaker 1: So so the first Yellow Vest, if you'd like, when 102 00:06:57,916 --> 00:07:02,396 Speaker 1: they started running on social networks and they said, okay, 103 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:05,356 Speaker 1: well we need to strike. We're going to strike on Saturday, 104 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:08,956 Speaker 1: the seventeenth of November twenty and eighteen. That will be 105 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 1: our first action throughout the country. And there were quite 106 00:07:12,356 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 1: a lot of them. Were just under three hundred thousand. 107 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 1: I mean, by French standards, it's not enormous, but it's 108 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: enough for the country to stop and to think, okay, 109 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 1: what's happening here? And so those first Yellow vest belong 110 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:32,716 Speaker 1: to what in Britain we would call the squeezed middlewa 111 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:35,636 Speaker 1: if you'd like. That is to say, not destitute, not 112 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:38,076 Speaker 1: you know, very poor people, not at all, but not 113 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: reach either. And in francing means a lot of people. 114 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:46,396 Speaker 1: We're talking about lower middle class middle classes, people who 115 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 1: perhaps are too rich to get you know, a lot 116 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 1: of benefits and not written obviously to be able to 117 00:07:55,676 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 1: afford living in places where they don't have to rely 118 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 1: entirely on their car. I mean, class consciousness and class 119 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: politics are deeply embedded in the historical French story. But 120 00:08:09,476 --> 00:08:13,436 Speaker 1: when one thinks about that, historically, one doesn't think about 121 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:17,156 Speaker 1: the squeezed middle One thinks about the rises of the peasants. 122 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:19,716 Speaker 1: As you described in the pre revolutionary period. One thinks 123 00:08:19,716 --> 00:08:22,116 Speaker 1: about the rise of the bourgeoisie, which is a kind 124 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 1: of rising middle class. One thinks about an aristocratic elite, 125 00:08:26,516 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 1: or later a technocratic elite. But there hasn't been a 126 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 1: central place. Correct me if I'm wrong in the long 127 00:08:32,756 --> 00:08:39,396 Speaker 1: French narrative of class for people like you're describing, is that? 128 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:42,636 Speaker 1: Is that so? And if it is, what's the French 129 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:45,756 Speaker 1: term that or what language have have French commentators or 130 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 1: observers used to describe this social class? I mean, you're 131 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 1: you're You're right in a sense that it was novel, 132 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:56,836 Speaker 1: and it took time for sociologist, for demographers to grasp 133 00:08:57,116 --> 00:08:59,436 Speaker 1: the movements, and one of them actually said, it's not 134 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:02,956 Speaker 1: a class, it's a mass. What's the difference between those things? 135 00:09:03,556 --> 00:09:07,836 Speaker 1: In the sense that poinstante. If you take the age 136 00:09:08,036 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 1: of the Yuno vest, actually you had people from the 137 00:09:12,116 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 1: age of seventeen to the age of seventy seven, really 138 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:20,956 Speaker 1: people from all ages, all ages. Also a lot of artisans, 139 00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 1: a lot of self employed, also some entrepreneurs. You know 140 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: my that's why perhaps well took about my own call later. 141 00:09:29,116 --> 00:09:31,716 Speaker 1: But he's a self made man, so it makes him 142 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:34,916 Speaker 1: in a way, you know, part of the year of 143 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 1: the People, if you'd like it. Also, it doesn't come 144 00:09:37,836 --> 00:09:43,356 Speaker 1: from the aristocracy, comes from middle lower bourgeoisie as say. 145 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:45,476 Speaker 1: It was, you know, and a lot of men and 146 00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: a lot of women, a lot of also single parents 147 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: and single mothers who had difficulty making ends meet, a 148 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 1: lot of professionals from you know, a lot of nurses, 149 00:09:57,556 --> 00:10:00,796 Speaker 1: some teachers, so you know, it was a mix, a 150 00:10:00,956 --> 00:10:05,276 Speaker 1: very very diverse mix. So it's quite difficult to apply 151 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: the class system to it. And that's why also resorted 152 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 1: to a very English, as in British term disguised middle class. Right, 153 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 1: But you don't think it's it's not. Actually it doesn't 154 00:10:16,476 --> 00:10:19,916 Speaker 1: exactly captured. But I do have the sense from from 155 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 1: reading that most of the people who have come out 156 00:10:24,276 --> 00:10:29,316 Speaker 1: for the protests do experience themselves as suffering from economic privation. 157 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:33,196 Speaker 1: It's not impoverished, but barely making it in some sense. 158 00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 1: And it seemed to me that that was why your 159 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:37,956 Speaker 1: story was so fascinating, precisely because your uncle didn't fit 160 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 1: into that category. No, you didn't. My uncle Jo is 161 00:10:43,716 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 1: in his sixties. Um, he's well off. He was the 162 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: CEO of a large European Company, although he belongs also 163 00:10:54,916 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 1: to you know, category of retired people who do have 164 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: wives for their children and grandchildren, as somebody who lives 165 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 1: in the provinces, somebody who feels quite lonely and whos corvet. 166 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:15,716 Speaker 1: Sort of fraternity on those roundabouts, and a lot of 167 00:11:15,716 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: people started talking two neighbors they wouldn't talk to otherwise. So, 168 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 1: especially at the beginning of the movement, it was really 169 00:11:25,876 --> 00:11:31,036 Speaker 1: striking to see that there was this fraternity which is 170 00:11:31,076 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 1: so French. And also given the very striking figure of cafes. 171 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:39,676 Speaker 1: You know, sixty years ago there were two hundred thousand 172 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: cafes in France. There are only now thirty six thousand. 173 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 1: And in sharp contrast, the roundabouts didn't exist fifty years 174 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,876 Speaker 1: ago and now we've got more than fifty thousand. So 175 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:56,276 Speaker 1: the roundabout became very much a place for conviviality. I mean, 176 00:11:56,276 --> 00:12:01,396 Speaker 1: they built a sort of canteen you know, and tents, 177 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: and they you know, for weeks, because now the movement 178 00:12:05,036 --> 00:12:07,756 Speaker 1: has disappeared from the roundabouts, but for weeks, weeks and 179 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: months they would converge and they would have their little 180 00:12:12,196 --> 00:12:15,956 Speaker 1: commune and debating societies on the round about. So there. 181 00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:19,636 Speaker 1: When you talk about fraternity, you're translating the French word fertonite, 182 00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 1: which for Americans means something like solidarity or a way 183 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:29,916 Speaker 1: of feeling some sense of connectedness to other people. And 184 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 1: so you're suggesting, if I understand you correctly, that one 185 00:12:32,716 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 1: thing about this particular protest movement is that it offered 186 00:12:36,396 --> 00:12:39,916 Speaker 1: some opportunity for connection to people who might feel in 187 00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:42,956 Speaker 1: certain ways isolated, and that they actually could take the 188 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:45,676 Speaker 1: roundabout of the rotary which they had taken over, and 189 00:12:45,836 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: make it for a Saturday into a place to hang out, 190 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:50,556 Speaker 1: a place to interact with each other, in a place 191 00:12:50,556 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: to feel human connection, like you belong to a common project, 192 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 1: which in French terms, is a crucial element of national identity. 193 00:12:57,756 --> 00:13:01,116 Speaker 1: It's one of the three big commitments of the French, 194 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:05,316 Speaker 1: the French model completely. And so we're talking about this 195 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 1: mass rather than class of people who also feel you know, 196 00:13:10,196 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 1: underprivileged or vulnerable because they are lonely. A lot of 197 00:13:14,196 --> 00:13:18,556 Speaker 1: single parents, a lot of lonely retired people, and you know, 198 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 1: living in isolation in provincial France and often only having 199 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 1: a relationship through social networks in front of their computer screen. 200 00:13:29,196 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: And then suddenly they rekindled with, as you said, very rightly, 201 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: a very French way of life, because those cafes that 202 00:13:38,196 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: have disappeared through you know, the last sixty years in 203 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: France haven't disappeared from city centers. There's still plenty of 204 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 1: cafes in Paris. It's out in the countryside where you 205 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 1: don't exactly you know, in villages there used to be 206 00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:53,916 Speaker 1: many cafes and now you know you are there's perhaps 207 00:13:54,036 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 1: one left, but often there's none. So we're talking about 208 00:13:58,876 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 1: a disconnection between part of France that is successful, young, metropolitan, 209 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: that travels abroad, that is a sort of the radiant 210 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:15,276 Speaker 1: face of globalization. Just like President Michael, who is young, 211 00:14:15,476 --> 00:14:19,156 Speaker 1: who is elite, who is sophisticated, who wears tailored suits, 212 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:23,076 Speaker 1: who is comfortable in multiple languages. He's the outward facing 213 00:14:23,436 --> 00:14:25,756 Speaker 1: picture of the modern French elite, and he's very far 214 00:14:25,916 --> 00:14:30,476 Speaker 1: from the world of the small provincial town where the 215 00:14:30,556 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 1: cafes have closed and there are jobs, but maybe not 216 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: enough jobs for everybody completely. And that's why also, I 217 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,756 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember at the beginning, this hatred, 218 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:47,236 Speaker 1: which we didn't quite understand because it was so it 219 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: came from the guts you know, and this hatred against Michael. 220 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:55,876 Speaker 1: The figure of Michael was to do with what he personified, 221 00:14:56,316 --> 00:14:59,676 Speaker 1: and you're saying is a symbol of the elite. Of 222 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 1: course he is, because he's now the president. It's also 223 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:08,996 Speaker 1: very young, and somehow they disliked that fact, if you' 224 00:15:09,396 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 1: because at the yellow vests, I thought, rightly or wrongly 225 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 1: that they belong to the losing France, if you like. 226 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:22,036 Speaker 1: So here it gets really really interesting and also really 227 00:15:22,076 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: complicated for outsiders to understand. So let's try to figure 228 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 1: out a little bit the politics side here, because until 229 00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: now you've described very movingly, in fact, the sort of 230 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: psychological experience of people who feel that the center doesn't 231 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:40,036 Speaker 1: care about them and that the elites aren't thinking about them, 232 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 1: and that makes them sound extremely sympathetic. Politically, though, the 233 00:15:45,076 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 1: movement did, as you've just described, focus on a kind 234 00:15:49,036 --> 00:15:54,236 Speaker 1: of great anger at the French president and at the 235 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 1: idea that his politics somehow stood for making France in 236 00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 1: some way more like the United States more market driven. 237 00:16:04,116 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 1: Marquin's first major reforms involved changing French law to make 238 00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:12,436 Speaker 1: it easier for employers to fire employees, which has been 239 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: very difficult under French law. That's a kind of market 240 00:16:15,116 --> 00:16:20,036 Speaker 1: oriented reform, and so the criticisms and the protests seem 241 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: to take the form, in part at least, of an 242 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: attack on this tendency of Maquant's to be efficient, rational 243 00:16:28,636 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: and market driven and in that sense distant from the 244 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:38,156 Speaker 1: more centralized, organized, top down French system. Have any of 245 00:16:38,156 --> 00:16:41,756 Speaker 1: the major French political parties that criticize Macran been able 246 00:16:41,756 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 1: to capitalize on the movement? For example, Has the French 247 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 1: far right, which in some ways you would think would 248 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: have shared a lot of the interests of the protesters, 249 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:55,076 Speaker 1: you know, peripheral, not necessarily from the center of Paris, 250 00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:57,756 Speaker 1: appealing to people who aren't the poorest but are also 251 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:01,476 Speaker 1: not the rich elites. Have they Has anyone been able 252 00:17:01,476 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: to capitalize on the movement for political gain, Well, it's 253 00:17:05,996 --> 00:17:09,236 Speaker 1: the heart of the matter. Right from the start, our 254 00:17:09,356 --> 00:17:14,316 Speaker 1: rights and the far left and their respective leader Main 255 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:17,796 Speaker 1: Lupin for the far right and Jean Luc Minochen for 256 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 1: the far left try to stuff on the way of 257 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 1: the yellow Vest. They appeared with them, they put on 258 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:31,276 Speaker 1: yellow jackets, but the yellow Vest didn't want to be 259 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: associated with them, at least to start with. They were 260 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 1: a leader less movement. But the problem, of course is 261 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 1: when you constituted movement, there's a moment when you need leaders. 262 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 1: But it's time they elected leaders. They were designed, they 263 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 1: were rejected, and when the government said why don't you 264 00:17:53,676 --> 00:17:56,556 Speaker 1: send your representative so that we know what you would like, 265 00:17:56,876 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: so that we can stop the violence on the Saturday 266 00:18:00,156 --> 00:18:04,436 Speaker 1: protest and we can start talks, they didn't send anyone. 267 00:18:04,596 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 1: So it's never became anything else than a rebel, if 268 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 1: you'd like. One very interesting thing is that a lot 269 00:18:14,516 --> 00:18:17,636 Speaker 1: of Yellow Vest when you met them, said I have 270 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:21,196 Speaker 1: never voted in my life before, But more importantly, a 271 00:18:21,196 --> 00:18:23,836 Speaker 1: lot of them said it's the first time we take 272 00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 1: to the streets. So it's true that we're talking about 273 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 1: politically disenfranchised citizens. And the far right and far lept 274 00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:37,836 Speaker 1: were very eager to capitalize on the Yellow Vest anger 275 00:18:38,556 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 1: and they felt, they completely felt they were. At the 276 00:18:43,236 --> 00:18:50,516 Speaker 1: latest European elections, two Yellow Vests sort of lists people 277 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 1: could vote for, and they got zero point five percent 278 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:59,756 Speaker 1: of the vote between the two. So in a way 279 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's the death of the Yellow Vest 280 00:19:03,156 --> 00:19:07,996 Speaker 1: rebellion because they never managed to become anything else. That's 281 00:19:08,036 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 1: completely fascinating in its own right, the idea that a 282 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:14,836 Speaker 1: movement had a desire to be heard, that the participants 283 00:19:14,876 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 1: had a desire to be known, that they rejected again 284 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 1: in a sort of inspiring way, the idea that they 285 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:22,716 Speaker 1: could be co opted by either the far left or 286 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:25,636 Speaker 1: the far right. But then there's something that seems almost 287 00:19:25,636 --> 00:19:29,356 Speaker 1: tragic about the idea that the movement simply peters out 288 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 1: and gets close to dying by virtue of the fact 289 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:35,116 Speaker 1: that they've been heard, They've said their piece, the whole 290 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:36,676 Speaker 1: world has looked at them, the whole world has paid 291 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:39,476 Speaker 1: attention to them. France has paid attention to them. But 292 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:43,596 Speaker 1: they have they fundamentally changed anything. Have they changed the 293 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:47,516 Speaker 1: perspective on politics of any of the players, even if 294 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:51,276 Speaker 1: they haven't ultimately joined. Is there going to be a 295 00:19:51,316 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 1: long term effect on the language or the ideas of 296 00:19:55,156 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 1: French politics. We're talking about you know, people here in 297 00:20:00,396 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 1: farms who asked for more public services and less taxes. 298 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 1: How do you square that? Um? You know, nobody can. 299 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:17,836 Speaker 1: And they also wanted a kind of direct democracy that 300 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,316 Speaker 1: is in my view, the opposite of democracy. For instance, 301 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 1: they said, oh, we we want to bring down the government, 302 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 1: we want my gone to resign. We don't want to 303 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:31,876 Speaker 1: have a National Assembly anymore. We just want direct democracy. 304 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 1: We'll just vote on the internet, you know, through our 305 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:39,836 Speaker 1: Facebook or whatever. On laws. You know, we should have 306 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: a system of referendum, for instance, for every single idea. 307 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 1: I mean, things like this the universe are symptom rather 308 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:52,356 Speaker 1: than you know, giving any answers to an anger, it's 309 00:20:52,396 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 1: it's a feeling. And they certainly didn't come up with 310 00:20:56,236 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: any possible rational political recipes or ideas that could be 311 00:21:05,476 --> 00:21:08,356 Speaker 1: later implemented. But is that asking too much of the 312 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:12,116 Speaker 1: movement to to be If they were rational politicians, they 313 00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 1: would form a political party and they would you participate 314 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 1: in electoral politics, or they would be journalists or commentators 315 00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: or you know, political scientists sitting in a seminar room 316 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:25,996 Speaker 1: and offering theories. That doesn't sound like what the movement 317 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: was trying to be. Well, we still don't know what 318 00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:31,196 Speaker 1: they were trying to be, because in a way we're 319 00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 1: still focusing on the early stage of the Yellow Ves movement, 320 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:38,836 Speaker 1: because perhaps we should also say that the Yellow Ves 321 00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: became extremely violent. Let's let's turn to that, and was 322 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: the movement hijacked to some people say hijacked by thugs 323 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 1: or anarchists from the right or the left. Yes, completely 324 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 1: professional anarchist, professional thugs, which are very well known in 325 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:58,196 Speaker 1: SOMs and come from the extreme right and the extreme left. 326 00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: And so we're talking only about people who sort of insurrectional. 327 00:22:03,596 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, there was I was 328 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:11,396 Speaker 1: in Paris, and I was present during the Saturday protest, 329 00:22:11,476 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: and there was a sort of insurrectional perfume in the 330 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 1: air of Paris, but of course they were never they 331 00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: didn't have the number I should like to stay to 332 00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:27,796 Speaker 1: coup because that's what they were calling for. So I 333 00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:30,356 Speaker 1: like the idea of an insurrectional perfume. It sounds like 334 00:22:30,436 --> 00:22:34,116 Speaker 1: anacion would be the great name for a forever a 335 00:22:34,156 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 1: new do or perfume. But what does that mean? Do 336 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 1: you mean that feeling in the air as though let's 337 00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 1: go burn it all down? Oh? Yes, completely, Look I'm 338 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:46,396 Speaker 1: in my early forties. I've to take to the street. 339 00:22:46,516 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: Is part of a It's a rite of passage for 340 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:55,196 Speaker 1: any French citizen. I've been to countless demonstrations in Paris, 341 00:22:55,836 --> 00:23:01,156 Speaker 1: and the level of violence I experienced in the streets 342 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:06,236 Speaker 1: of Paris during the Saturday Yellow Vest, where unlike anything 343 00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 1: we've seen before, and even people who were old enough 344 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:14,276 Speaker 1: to attend sixty eight nineteen sixty eight demonstrations in Paris 345 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 1: said the same, you know, simply because they wanted to kill. 346 00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: When I say they the thirds that infiltrate to the 347 00:23:21,876 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: Yellow Vest or some of the yellow Vests wanted to 348 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:31,276 Speaker 1: destroy and to also kill a policeman if they could. 349 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 1: And two thousand policemen were actually injured, which is a 350 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:39,316 Speaker 1: very high figure for funds. Because don't forget the arts. 351 00:23:39,476 --> 00:23:42,196 Speaker 1: We have mastered the art of demonstration. We know how 352 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 1: to do this. It's very theatrical. Yes, everyone has a role, 353 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:46,956 Speaker 1: everyone knows what to do so that things don't get 354 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:50,396 Speaker 1: out of head completely and it can appear violent, but 355 00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:53,716 Speaker 1: it's actually quite safe, or it used to be until 356 00:23:53,796 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 1: the Yellow Vest. Because the Yellow Vest was about really 357 00:23:57,196 --> 00:24:00,956 Speaker 1: very quickly on became about violence and pure violence. Even 358 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 1: the police, the right police was very astruct by that. 359 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:12,836 Speaker 1: They actually didn't know how to react the first few Saturdays. 360 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:17,516 Speaker 1: Sometimes they were too passive and they were completely out 361 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 1: of their depths if you'd like, and a lot of 362 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:27,996 Speaker 1: destruction took place of buildings, but also some protesters were 363 00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: hit by rubber bullets. Which is a non little sort 364 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:36,836 Speaker 1: of riot control guns that the French police is allowed 365 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:39,956 Speaker 1: to use. But so there were a lot of injured, 366 00:24:40,476 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 1: a high high number of injured, but nobody died. And 367 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 1: that's a miracle because the violence we all have seen 368 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 1: industries of Paris was unlike anything we had seen in decades. 369 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 1: Did the violence ultimately contribute to the discrediting of the 370 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:00,596 Speaker 1: movement completely? I mean, that's why the real Yellow best 371 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: if you'd like the people who really had something to 372 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:08,116 Speaker 1: say and had perhaps you wanted to be helped by 373 00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:10,716 Speaker 1: the government. In the end they were actually I think 374 00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 1: we should say that President macall actually gave seventeen billion 375 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:21,556 Speaker 1: euros worth of different benefits and tax incentives and bonuses 376 00:25:21,596 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: and canceled the carbon tax. I mean it went much 377 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 1: further than the original demands of the Yellow vests. I 378 00:25:28,356 --> 00:25:30,116 Speaker 1: mean that goes to the question of the long run 379 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: impact of the movement. It did have, at least any 380 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,116 Speaker 1: immediate Some of the movements demands, even if they were 381 00:25:35,156 --> 00:25:37,876 Speaker 1: in co ed, were in fact mad oh matt and 382 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 1: further than the original demands, because in France, that's the 383 00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: way it is when the people take to the streets 384 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:50,116 Speaker 1: in numbers. The government always responds, if you want a 385 00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 1: bit of history, we have to go back to the 386 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: French Revolution. The legitimacy of the power in France lies 387 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:59,356 Speaker 1: with the people. Okay, in Britain it lies with the parliament. 388 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:02,676 Speaker 1: It's a question of history. It used to Oh yes, 389 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 1: it used to until flexing. That's another story. But so 390 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: to go back to France, you know, the poor is 391 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:14,076 Speaker 1: the power, and as a French citizen you know you 392 00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 1: have this power and you play with it. But the violence, 393 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:23,516 Speaker 1: to go back to your earlier question, meant that a 394 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 1: lot of the early year now vests decided they had 395 00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:30,876 Speaker 1: nothing to do with violence and the violent people, and 396 00:26:30,916 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 1: they stayed at home. So from three hundred thousand people 397 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:38,876 Speaker 1: we very quickly went to what twenty thousand, So there 398 00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 1: was a natural trajectory. As it were, the people, or 399 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: some of the people expressed themselves. They said they spoke 400 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: on behalf of a broader people. The violence discredited the movement, 401 00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: The government responded, and then, as if on que, the 402 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:59,756 Speaker 1: movement began to recede in numbers, perhaps having achieved the 403 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:03,196 Speaker 1: goal of drawing attention to the problems of the people 404 00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:06,716 Speaker 1: who marched, but without offering a permanent kind of a 405 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 1: solution completely. And also the fact that at a few 406 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:15,516 Speaker 1: yellow vests that tried a sort of democratic exercise of 407 00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 1: presenting themselves at the European elections felt so lamentably, you know, 408 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:26,076 Speaker 1: is the kind of and to the movement. Yes, the 409 00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:29,236 Speaker 1: kind of coda. Thank you any us. That was very, 410 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: very fascinating, and I really really appreciate your time. I 411 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:33,676 Speaker 1: look forward to reading more of your work going forward. 412 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:50,836 Speaker 1: Thank you. It's with great love and admiration for France 413 00:27:51,316 --> 00:27:55,076 Speaker 1: that I note that only a French person would describe 414 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 1: a day of riots and protests in Paris as a 415 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,836 Speaker 1: day when there was a perfume of insurrection in the air. 416 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 1: Yet the truth is, there's something very powerful and significant 417 00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:09,836 Speaker 1: about the trajectory of the yellow vest protests which tells 418 00:28:09,876 --> 00:28:12,956 Speaker 1: us something not only about France, but about the way 419 00:28:12,956 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 1: that populist movements all over the world express their anger, 420 00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:22,756 Speaker 1: express their demands, and ultimately still have difficulty turning them 421 00:28:22,796 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 1: into concrete, long term political action. That's something that I 422 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 1: think we should watch not only in Europe, but everywhere 423 00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 1: in the world, including right here in the United States. 424 00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 1: Populism is our constant refrain It's in the news every day, 425 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 1: but populism that isn't transformed into long term political movement 426 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:48,676 Speaker 1: is just the expression of emotion. It clarifies, it expresses, 427 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:52,436 Speaker 1: but it doesn't fix things. It's one of the most 428 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 1: powerful impulses in all of our political lives. It's also 429 00:28:56,316 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 1: one of our most dangerous. Deep Background is brought to 430 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:04,516 Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Jeancott, with 431 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: engineering by Jason Gambrel and Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is 432 00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:11,596 Speaker 1: Sophi mkim. Our theme music is composed by Luis Gerra. 433 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, 434 00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 1: and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me 435 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This is Deep Background.