1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with Joon Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Show. We look at the career of 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: was remembered at the court she served on for twenty 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: seven years for her brilliance and vision. Chief Justice John 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: Roberts called Ginsburg a rock star who found her stage 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: in our courtroom. Her four hundred and eighty three majority 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: concurring and descending opinions we'll steer the court for decades. 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: They are written with the unaffected grace of precision. Justice 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: Ginsburg was a trailblazer for women's rights, the second female 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: justice on the Supreme Court, and a cultural icon. She 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: built a record on the Court as one of the 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: most liberal members. It was her strong descents from rulings 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: that cut back on voting rights and affirmative action that 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: won her the nickname Notorious RBG, and she became a 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: cultural icon a rock star in her eighties. My guest 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: is Leah Littman, a professor of constitutional law at the 18 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: University of Michigan Law School. Explain why Justice Ginsburg is 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: repeatedly called a trailblazer for women's rights. Sure so, her 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: career before she ever made her way onto the federal course, 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: really pioneered the modern law of sexi quality. As a litigator, 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: she advanced theories that the Constitution prohibited the government from 23 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: discriminating on the basis suspect, and it was in cases 24 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: that she argued or brief that the court first endorsed 25 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: that very proposition. Into early cases, she got the court 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: to agree that the Constitution prohibits discrimination on the basics 27 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: suspect where laws actually disadvantaged men, and later on she 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: would ask the court to apply that same principle to 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: laws that disadvantaged women. Her theory beings at any discrimination 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: on the basis of sex was bad for the country 31 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: and bad for men and women as a whole. In 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: later cases, she also laid out a theory of reproductive justice, 33 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: under which women should have control of their reproductive lives. 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: But as with her pioneering work on sex equality, she 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: first advanced that theory in cases where the government brought 36 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: to prevent women from having children, either through eugenics, forceable 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: sterialization laws, or laws that required women in order to 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: continue on in their jobs, to have an abortion, and 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: so she was a very savvy litigator and royally strategist 40 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: before she ever got to the court. So did she 41 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: accomplish most of her victories for women before she got 42 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: on the court. Then, so some of her victories were 43 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: before she got on the court, but she certainly advanced 44 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: the law of sex equality once she got on the 45 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: core worked as well. In her extremely important decision in 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: United States Forces Virginia, she invalidated Virginia's attempt to exclude 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: women from being admitted to the Virginia Military Institute, the 48 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: state premier academy for training military officers. And in that 49 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: assistance she said states must show and the federal government 50 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: must show an exceedingly persuasive justification before they discriminate against women. 51 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: And so I think she did advance the principles of 52 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: sexicality and prohibitions on sex discrimination after she's got on 53 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: the court, But she really founded the modern law of 54 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: sexic quality as a litigator. She also talked about when 55 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: she was the only woman on the court that she 56 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: served in the role of sort of of law professor 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: because she had to explain to her male colleagues how 58 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: how things worked as far as women were concerned. What 59 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: they're concerned, earns would be yes, that's right. So in 60 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: one case involving a school strict search of a thirteen 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: year old girl, she famously told a reporter when discussing 62 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: the case, that none of my colleagues have been thirteen 63 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: year old girls. This was a case that the court 64 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 1: heard after Jefice O'Connor had retired, and so she really 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: did view her role as a spokeswoman for women and 66 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: women's equality and women's issues on the Court. When the 67 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: Justice John Paul Stevens retired, she became the leader of 68 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: the so called Liberal block of the Court. Tell us 69 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: about her accomplishments as leader of the Liberal block. So 70 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: she was on the left of the court during the 71 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: Rehnquist and the Roberts Court eras, which means many of 72 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: her most famous decisions came in defense. So as the 73 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: leader of the liberal block of the Court, she authored 74 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: the Descent did Shelby County versus Holder, in which the 75 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: Court of the conservative majority invalidated the crown jewel of 76 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, the preclearance regime of the Voting 77 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: Rights Act. And it was in that decision that she 78 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: famously said that the Court in invalidating the Voting Rights 79 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: Act on the ground that black voting had increased in 80 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: the passages. Voting Rights Act was like throwing out your 81 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: umbrella in a rainstorm because you're not getting wet. And 82 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: it was that line in that descent that really launched 83 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: s notorious RBG meme in popular culture. She also had 84 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: famous descentse in Gonzal's versus Carhart, where the court upheld 85 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: the federal partial birth of worship app And it was 86 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: really as a dissenter that she made her name. Her 87 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: descent in a famous fair pay case led better led 88 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: Congress to amend the law to allow women to more 89 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: easily sue to recover for pay discrimination. So she really 90 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: made her name on the core at the dissenter, although 91 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: she did have some significant majority opinions like United States 92 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: or Suspicia. It seems from the statements that many of 93 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: the justices have made that she had friendships with many 94 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: of her colleagues. I think that the justices tried to 95 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: get along with one another, and I think Justice Ginsberg 96 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: in particular really prided herself on a kind of professionalism 97 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: where she could disagree with her colleagues but still maintain 98 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: cordial relationships with them. In the last few years, when 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: the justice were leaving the bench, it would be Justice 100 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: Thomas who would help her walk off the bench and 101 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: extend his arm to her. And she had warm relationships 102 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: with several of her colleagues um as the statements make clear. 103 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: As you know, going back to her descents for a moment, 104 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: her a longtime friend. Justice Scalia was well known for 105 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: his descents and she was well known for her As 106 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: what was similar or dissimilar about them? I think that 107 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: they were similar and that they often had memorable lines. 108 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: But Justice Scaliah's descents often went and a bit further 109 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: in accusing the side with which he was disagreeing of 110 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: engaging in politics or being illegitimate. And I think burning 111 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: more things to the ground than Justice Ginsburg ever did 112 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: in defense. And it remains to be seen whether her 113 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: desfense will galvanize Americans who want to honor her legacy 114 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: and believe in her, to galvanize them to go to 115 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: the polls or serve her legacy in the same way 116 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: that voters responded to Justice Kluie is passing by going 117 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: to the polls to elect President Trump, who replaced his successor. So, 118 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: speaking of her legacy, how significant would it be if 119 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is allowed to replace her with the conservative jurist. 120 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: I think it would greatly alter the future of the 121 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: Court and really substantially undo significant portions of Justice Skinsberg's legacy. 122 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: Um it would alter the direction of the Court because 123 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: it means that the Chief Justice would no longer be 124 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: the media justice on the Court, but he would no 125 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: longer be the justice his vote was necessary in order 126 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: to garner a majority. Instead, that person would be someone 127 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: like new Coursewitch or Breck Kavanaugh or whoever the new 128 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: not the MEI in. And that will have profound implications 129 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: in a wide range of areas, many of which are 130 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: essential to Justice Skinsberg's legacy. It will certainly have implications 131 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: in the field of reproductive justice, so thinking about contraception 132 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: access and whether employers must extend health insurance coverage to 133 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: women for contraception access. It will also affect abortion just 134 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: less terms the Suscreme Court upheld by a narrow majority 135 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: um their earlier decision and whole women's health for the 136 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: Teller Stead, which in realidated in admitting privileges requirement for 137 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: abortion providers with a replacement for Jeffic Ginsberg on the Court, 138 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: that decision would have gone the other way and would 139 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: have green lighted even more expansive and restrictive regulations on abortion. 140 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: So we are likely to see several changes rather quickly 141 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: even when replacement is confirmed, and that will have really 142 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: significant effects for the next several decades. The approval of 143 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court was at its highest level in a 144 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: decade in August about fifty and included both Republicans and 145 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: Democrats approving of the job the Supreme Court did. Do 146 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: you suppose that part of that is that Roberts used 147 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: his power to moderate the Court's decisions and it didn't 148 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: seem like the Court was either left or right. Yes, 149 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: I absolutely think that's true. I mean, most of the 150 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: headlines at the end of the term were about how 151 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: the Court managed to stay above politics and was nonpartisan, 152 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: unlike the other branches of the federal government. And I 153 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: think that those headlines and a few decisions where the 154 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: Chief Justice joined the liberals and the outcome bottom lines 155 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: of the cases really affected public perceptions of the court, 156 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: and so they enjoyed much greater public positive perception than 157 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: our you A believe they should have Chief Justice Roberts 158 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 1: always likes to talk about the independence of the judiciary, 159 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: that they're not political, judges are above that. But will 160 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: this in the eyes of the public at least, will 161 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: the fight right now? Will that draw the Supreme Court 162 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: into the political realm despite what the justices do. I 163 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: think that the Supreme Court has always been political in 164 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,599 Speaker 1: some way. But I do think that the Trump administration 165 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: and the Republican Senate behavior take away any safely that 166 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: suggested the Supreme Court was how independent of politics. Of course, 167 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: the Republicans invented this rule in two thousand sixteen that 168 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: you could not confirm a justice during an election year, 169 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: and have comptly abandoned that rule while we are in 170 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: the midst of an ongoing election, and so I think 171 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: that their behavior, and they're about faces, should lead people 172 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: to view the Court of a more political institution than 173 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: some people did. At the end of this test rum, 174 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: President Trump said he's going to appoint a woman, and 175 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: all the women on his list are conservatives. Most of 176 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: them are appointees of his on the federal bench. Does 177 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: it matter which conservative woman he appoints? Is it? Is 178 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: it all the same? Or are their degrees I think 179 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: that all of the nominee if you're currently considering for 180 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: this position, are going to vote and would likely vote 181 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: in substantially similar ways on the major issues that we 182 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: are thinking about. When we are thinking, well, what will 183 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: be effective this replacing Justice Ginsburg, be whether it is contraception, 184 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: whether it is abortion, whether it is billing rights, whether 185 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: it is the legitimacy of the administrative case, whether it 186 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,599 Speaker 1: is a host of other things. The president's possible nominees 187 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: are all likely to vote in these same ways. Um. Now, 188 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: there are probably differences between them and the kind of 189 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: opinions they will write, or on certain less ideologically salient questions, 190 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: but I think that in the main they will largely 191 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: vote the same way on these major issues that are, 192 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, having such a prominent role in the confirmation process. 193 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: Thanks Leah. That's Leah Littman, a professor at the University 194 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: of Michigan School of Law. Coming up next on Bloomberg Law, 195 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk to one of Justice Ginsburg's former clerks. My 196 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: next guest is Toby Heightens, the Solicitor General of the 197 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: State of Virginia. He was a clerk for Justice Ginsburg. 198 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: Let's just start with a broad question. What was Justice 199 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: Ginsburg like? Surprisingly hard question because she was very I say, complicated. 200 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: She was incredibly smart, she was incredibly hard working, she 201 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: was incredibly kind, and she was she was a bit 202 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: odd in a great way by the way that you 203 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: definitely took some getting used to. She she spoke very 204 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: softly and very slowly, and as a person who has 205 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: a habit of speaking very quickly, that required some adjustment 206 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: from my perspective. But she was just like I said, 207 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: I mean, brilliant, incredibly hard working, incredibly kind, incredibly generous, 208 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: and all around great persons. So you say she was 209 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: a bit odd, but in a good way, what do 210 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: you mean? I think a lot of things that people 211 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: have have mentioned about her. Despite having a huge personality 212 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: and a huge footprint on the law and on her culture, 213 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: she spoke extremely softly. Her voice was often extremely soft 214 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: and extremely deliberately. Despite being a great lover of the 215 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: opera uh and a person who obviously was an amazing 216 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: dresser and spent a budget time her own look, she 217 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: was so far as I can tell, pretty much completely 218 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: indifferent to how the people who worked for her looked 219 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: for dress. One of my sort of overall senses is 220 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: that RBG divided the world very sharply into things that 221 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: she cared about and things that she did not care about. 222 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: And the things that she cared about she cared about 223 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: intensely and profoundly, and the things that she didn't like. 224 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: What her law clerks were to work or what hours 225 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: they kept was something that she just did not care about. 226 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: Apple did she always have those long pauses before she spoke, 227 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say always. One of the greatest pieces of 228 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: advice I got before I interviewed with her um was 229 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: from an incredible recommender and then later, dear friend, I 230 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: can almost quote it more than like twenty years later. 231 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: It was pauses in conversation that most people would find 232 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: uncomfortably long that Justice did not find uncomfortable. And I 233 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: think it was true. I think she she was someone 234 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: who gave a tremendous amount of thought to what people 235 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: were saying to her and what she was going to 236 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: stay back, and I think it was important to her 237 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: to take the time to process what she had heard 238 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: and and make sure that she said what she wanted 239 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: to say. I mean, another thing that was sort of 240 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: legendarily true about her, both in writing and in speaking 241 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: is that she believed in saying is as little as 242 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: you needed to say, not not saying anything, but said 243 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: to not be excessive in the amount of things that 244 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: you said. She was a big believer in short opinions. 245 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: She was a big believer in concise statements. So I 246 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: think she often gave quite a bit of thought of 247 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: exactly what to say, and I think she took the 248 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: time to do that in a way that again I 249 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: don't think that she found it awful and so, but 250 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: it did. It definitely took getting used to. But the 251 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: same person I mentioned earlier gave me, uh, this incredible 252 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: piece of advice about you know, if they said, like, 253 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: at some point there will be a pause in the 254 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: conversation and you may have the urge to fill that space, 255 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: you need to resist that urge, specifically resist the urge 256 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: to remember the quote shatter nervously, because it's really easy 257 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: to do, especially when you're you know, when I interviewed 258 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: with her, I was I think it was twenty five 259 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: years old, and she had been someone that I I mean, 260 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: she wasn't nearly as famous then as she became in 261 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: the later years of her life, but she was still 262 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: pretty darn famous. And she was a hero to mine 263 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: back then. And I was having this sort of ridiculous 264 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: out of body experience in the Justice's office talking to her, 265 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: and so not surprisingly, you're pretty nervous, uh. And so 266 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: when you're nervous, at least I fear me, you talk 267 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: faster and you have fewer pauses, and they're like, that's 268 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: gonna be going on and you really really really need 269 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: to not do that. What was the atmosphere like in 270 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: her chambers for the clerks? She was a hard worker. 271 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: Did you guys have to extra hard? Did she take 272 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: your views into consideration? Yeah, absolutely she was. She was 273 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: definitely a hard workers. One of the things I remember learning, although, 274 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: is that she worked very distinctive hours. The Justice was 275 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: a night owl, uh, and I am not. And so 276 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: you know, she would she would come in late and 277 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: she would leave late. I think one of the things 278 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: that was so amazing about her, and it's it's all 279 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: the more striking to me, you know, with the benefit 280 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: of years of hindsight, is that she really didn't have 281 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: a whole lot of rules. You know, some federal judges 282 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: have lots and lots and lots of rules about what 283 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: their laws learns need to do, or what they need 284 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: to wear, or when they need to be in the office. 285 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: I think in Rbg's perspective, none of that particularly mattered 286 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: as long as they were available when she needed them 287 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: and as long as they did the work that she 288 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: needed them to do. She sort of for a person 289 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: who was herself a very substidious dress or who obviously 290 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: took great consideration into into what she wore, she was, 291 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: as far as I could tell, almost completely indifferent to 292 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: what her laws looks for and had had no chambers 293 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: rules about that other than when, of course, if you 294 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: were in the courtroom, you were required to be wearing 295 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: appropriate a tire to go into the courtroom. But other 296 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: than that, she really just did not care. With her 297 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: lawslerk to work to work, and by and large, she 298 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: didn't care when her law clerk did their work or 299 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: whether they or where they did their work. UM, as 300 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: long as she could reach you when she wanted to. UM. 301 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, she herself kept somewhat unusual 302 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: hours uh, and so as a results, I think she 303 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily have very strong views about the hours that 304 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: people would keep. You know, I had the tremendous privilege 305 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: of clerking for the Justice when her husband Marty was 306 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: still alive. UM. And so a lot of the chambers socializing, 307 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: of which there was a fair amount, either included party 308 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: as a direct participant or as an indirect participants. So 309 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: whenever it was someone's birthday, for example, of the law clerk, 310 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: the justices, the secretaries, the Chamber of Aid, um, we 311 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: would all go into her office and sit around the 312 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: table and drink tea and eat a cake that Marty 313 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: had made. Um, you know, because Marty was a legendarily 314 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: great and generous cook, and so probably had six different 315 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: takes cooked by Marty Ginsford sitting around the justices table 316 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: in her office. UM. One of the incredibly special things. 317 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: They also had us over to dinner in their apartment 318 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: in the Watergate and Marty cooked, you know, everything, and 319 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: it was everything you've ever heard about Martin Ginsborg's amazing cheft. 320 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: So they were incredibly incredibly kind and incredibly warm and 321 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: incredibly welcoming. They and everything people have said. You know, 322 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: I only saw a period of it, but everything I've 323 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: ever heard people say about their marriage was absolutely true 324 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: to what I thought. They had a just an incredible 325 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: relationship that has been a real inspiration I know, for 326 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: me and for lots of other people about um both 327 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: how they obviously obviously cared about each other, you know, 328 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: the justice was their Justice was often a pretty reserved 329 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: person Um, but she was not that way around Marty. 330 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: I mean she she came alive, um, in terms of demeanor, 331 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: in terms of expression, in terms of just visible happiness. 332 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: Whenever Marty was around, it was just it was incredible. 333 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: She seems, as you said, reserved, and yet she was 334 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: obviously her husband and Justice Scalia, whom she was great 335 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: friends with. Were these gregarious types. Was it opposites attracting 336 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: or did she have that sense of humor that came 337 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: out not in public but when you know, you were 338 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: in private. I think it might be a little bit 339 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: of those two. She she definitely did tell a good 340 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: joke from time to time, so that was certainly true. 341 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: I also do think, you know, I really always have 342 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: thought that they're One of the rosetta stones about her 343 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: personality was the statement she made a number of times 344 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: that if she had been able to be anything in 345 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: the world she would have liked, she would want to 346 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: be a great opera diva. Um. You know, I think 347 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: she was herself, perhaps a fairly reserved and maybe even 348 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: shy person who nonetheless had a tremendous affection for larger 349 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: than life things and larger than life personalities. And I think, 350 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think that the line you 351 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: draw between Marty's personality and Justice Pliest personally good. But 352 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: I think she she herself was a fairly quiet, reserved 353 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: person who very clearly loved big personality. I think she 354 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: said this a number of times about Justice Shiliot, that 355 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that they were such good friends 356 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: that he made her laugh, um, and she appreciated someone 357 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: made her laugh. I've been reading the different justices remarks, 358 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: and so many of them on both sides of the 359 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: aisle said that she was a dear friend. And Justice 360 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: Suitor said I loved her to pieces. You know, you 361 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: don't think of Justice suitors saying something like that. What 362 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: was her roles? Was she a unifier at the court? 363 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: You know, I I don't have a great sense of that, um, 364 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: but I do I that was my sense as well. UM. 365 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: My understanding UM is that the late Chief Justice Renquist 366 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: was also extraordinarily fonder um before his death. And so 367 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's a great question. I do think. I 368 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: think she was a person who worked very hard and 369 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: took her job in her craft incredibly seriously, and I 370 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: think people tend to respect that. Um. I think that 371 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: she you know, she also wrote it's interesting what happened 372 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: later in her career when she became most famous for 373 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: some you know, incredibly powerful and important descent. She was 374 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: somebody who, especially earlier in her career, was very reticent 375 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: about writing separate opinions just for herself. In fact, she 376 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: wrote an entire Law View article about about the fact 377 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: that she did not tend to write a lot of 378 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: concurrences and did not write tend to write a lot 379 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: of solo descentse just for her. I think she had 380 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: a very teen days view of the law and of 381 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: her job, and I think she worked very hard. Um. 382 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: You know, again, she she was legendarily great friends with 383 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: Justice Philia. But I would say, even in her most 384 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: biting and powerful and impassioned descent, she was very careful 385 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: in terms of I would say tone, um and language 386 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: that she used. She was she could be very very 387 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: critical of positions. But I guess in my experience with her, 388 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: both knowing her and that also through her opinions, she 389 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: was I think often always very careful to criticize physicians 390 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: not people, and I think people probably noticed that about 391 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: her UM and appreciated that about her. So, you know, 392 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: it's it's a great question. It is striking to read 393 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: some of those statements. And obviously whenever a justice passes 394 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: their their statements like or retire their statements like that, 395 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: that I you know, obviously she was very special to me, 396 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: so I may be inclined to sence this, but there 397 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: did seem to be something different about some of these, 398 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: and I completely agree Justice Suitors was. It's I think 399 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: it's the shortest one, but it is just incredibly poignant, 400 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: especially coming from, you know, a person who himself is 401 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 1: often viewed as quite reticent. She had so many clerks, 402 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: and a lot of them kept in touch with her. 403 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: Did you keep in touch with her over the years? 404 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: I kept in touch with her some um, you know, 405 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: probably less and some more than others. Maybe it's the 406 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: right answer, I guess, Um, I kept in touch with 407 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: her somewhat. You know, every significant job change I made 408 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: after working with her. I believe I had a conversation 409 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: with the Justice about um. Both giving her heads up 410 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: that someone might actually call her for a reference, although 411 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure anyone actually did, um uh, and just 412 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: to let her know. UM. You know, I think the 413 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: last of those conversations I had with her was shortly 414 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: before I got my current job with the Attorney General 415 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: of Virginia, and she was she was very, very supportive 416 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: and very excited. Um. So I certainly touched face with 417 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: her that way. Um. You know, we saw her usually 418 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: mostly at reunions, but occasionally other than that, so more 419 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: than some less than others. And you said earlier that 420 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: she she liked larger than life figures, and it seems 421 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: like she really embraced the notorious rbg Idea, And you know, 422 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: she had celebrities coming to her chambers and seems like 423 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: she really liked it. That's my sense too. I certainly 424 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: never asked her directly about it, but everything I'd ever 425 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: seen suggest that she got a bit of a kick 426 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: out of it. I mean, I imagine it must have 427 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: been a very strange experience to be in your I 428 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: guess I don't remember exactly what it started. That she 429 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: was she was either in her late seventies or her 430 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: eighties when she suddenly became a pop culture phenomenon, which 431 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: I imagine must have been somewhat of a strange experience. Um, 432 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: but she did certainly seem to enjoy it. So when 433 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: you look back, is there an anecdote or a comment 434 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: that what stands out to you when you think of her? Yeah, 435 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's interesting because again, she was 436 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: some of you that I knew and admired before I 437 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: ever met her, or ever had any reason to believe 438 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: that I would meet her. And and one of the 439 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: things that's that's odd for me is to sort of 440 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: is to is to relate those two things, right, the 441 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: sort of larger than life figure, this incredible figure in 442 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: American legal history, on the one hand, and someone who 443 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: was my boss for a year. And it's it's an 444 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: odd sort of duality of those of those two things. Um, 445 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: that's really tough. You know. I I one of my 446 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: one of my favorite stories about her, which encapsulates a 447 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: few things about her, including her sense of humor. Um. 448 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: Was so I had scheduled my interview with her, and 449 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: between the time that we scheduled the interview and the 450 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: dates the interview was supposed to happen, the Supreme Court 451 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: decided Bush versus Score, which effectively ended the presidential election 452 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: of two sass And you know, that was a big, 453 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: big thing, and I in a panic. I called all 454 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: of my recommenders about what they thought this meant for 455 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: my interview, and they were unanimous about two things. They 456 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: were unanimous that the Justice would not cancel her postpone 457 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: the interview because Justice Ginsburg, as we saw throughout her life, 458 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: again and again and again, stuck to her schedule um 459 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: no matter what, whether something huge in the world or 460 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: a personal tragedy, she she kept her schedule. They were 461 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: unanimous that she would do that, and they were unanimous 462 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: that she would definitely not bring up Push versus Score 463 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: during my interview. And so they will write about the 464 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: first part. But when I walked into her office, I 465 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: believe the first words she said to me were, have 466 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: you read our recent decisions, which I can only imagine 467 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: with the benefit of hindsight. You know, at that time 468 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: I had this amazing thought. I briefly thought it by 469 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: since even theorist a decision that you wishes last week. 470 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: But right I can only conclude the benedit of hindsight 471 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: that was that was a joke on her part um. 472 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: But at the time, I think I sort of panicked 473 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: and freaked out and gave the you know answer that 474 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: I prepared. But but I learned in that moment, and 475 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: it was an important you know. I think that's that's 476 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: a fun anecdote because it captures for me her absolute 477 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: commitment to keeping her schedule and her promises, which is 478 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: why everyone was sure she would never postpone the interview um. 479 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: The fact that she does enjoy that she did have 480 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: a sense of humor um and enjoyed tweaking people's expectations 481 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: that she didn't even ask me. Had I read Bush 482 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: versus Dore. She referred to it as the Recent Decisions um, 483 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: which I can only conclude was an exercise of her 484 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: mischievous sense of humor. Uh. And that she's very hard 485 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: to predict sometimes, because I had spoken to an of 486 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: her former clerks and they were all convinced that she 487 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't bring it up. It's hard to come up with 488 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: one thing. She's so larger than life. Yeah, she really was. 489 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,239 Speaker 1: You know, it was imagined for a lot of us 490 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: to clerk for her before she became the pop culture icon. 491 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: It it's very it was a sort of very strange experience, 492 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: and again I'm sure it was ten times stranger for her, 493 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: UM and for those who are closer to her than us. 494 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: But the experience of having somebody that you worked for 495 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: become really, really really I mean all Supreme Court justices 496 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: are obviously very high profile people. That she became again 497 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: a cultural phenomenon um, which which is a very interesting 498 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: an interesting second you know, second career life, or I 499 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: guess in our case, it's really amazing about her is 500 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: that she had I guess conservatively three or four full careers, 501 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: right of of accomplishments that even if a person had 502 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: never done anything else in their professional career, would be 503 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, incredible. Being the first female professor at two 504 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: different law schools, that would be an incredible career accomplishment. 505 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: Being that the architects of the legal fight against SAT 506 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: based discrimination of law, UM, that would be an incredible accomplishment. 507 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: Being a renowned judge in the d C circuit, you know, 508 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: and then being being Adjustice, who was you know, for 509 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: a while, a very well respected justice and men Adjustice 510 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: to in the later is for life became a celebrity 511 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: in addition to being UM. This incredibly powerful voice, like 512 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: three or four careers in one person's life. Thanks so 513 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: much for being on The Bloomberg Law Show. Toby. That's 514 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: Toby Heightens, the Solicitor General for the State of Virginia. 515 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso. Thanks so much for listening, and please 516 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten 517 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: BM Eastern on Bloomberg Radio.