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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.

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Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.

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Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 1: for el First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com, f I R S T L I t

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Speaker 1: E dot com. What you guys are about to hear

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Speaker 1: and watch in some cases is an interview with a politician,

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Speaker 1: or at least an aspiring politician. It's Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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Speaker 1: Who's making a bid for the White House. We do

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Speaker 1: not have a hell of a lot of politicians on

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Speaker 1: the show, but it does happen now and then by

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Speaker 1: the best of our recollection.

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Speaker 3: And Karinn and I texted about this.

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Speaker 1: We've done over five hundred episodes and had on seven

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Speaker 1: elected officials. That list includes five Republicans and two Democrats,

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Speaker 1: as well as a politician's kid. And don't go looking back,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't Chelsea Clinton. Now Kennedy here is an independent.

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Speaker 1: So that's a third party category. So our first third

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Speaker 1: party category independent category, and I'll point out I think

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Speaker 1: it is a welcome category because I get a little

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Speaker 1: fed up with the two party system that has enjoyed

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Speaker 1: a monopoly on the office of the President of the

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Speaker 1: United States of America since get this eighteen fifty six. Now,

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Speaker 1: I understand, we've got a hotly contested presidential race coming

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Speaker 1: up here, and we have candidates who have entirely different

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Speaker 1: world old views, entirely different priorities, entirely different personalities. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to get their panties in a

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Speaker 1: bunch about us having on one candidate and not the others.

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Speaker 1: All Right, So I'm telling you this. If you don't

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Speaker 1: hear from Trump or Biden on the Meat Eater Podcast,

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Speaker 1: it ain't our fault. I would love to have them

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Speaker 1: on if they come on. If you come on, I

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Speaker 1: promise a friendly conversation. All you gotta do is reach

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Speaker 1: out to our producer Krin, which is what RFK Juniors

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Speaker 1: people did, and we will have you on. We'll have

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Speaker 1: a friendly conversation that sticks to personal background, the outdoors

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Speaker 1: and natural resources issues. If you jam some other stuff

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Speaker 1: in there, you'll probably be okay. But we're gonna try

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Speaker 1: to focus on those three things. Now, let's get out

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Speaker 1: at the show and learn some stuff right about pollution,

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Speaker 1: assassination and the ways in which our future. Let me

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Speaker 1: put this way, the ways in which decisions we make

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Speaker 1: now are going to impact the future of natural resources

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Speaker 1: and the management of the lands and waters where you

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Speaker 1: hunt and fish. That's what we're going to talk about now.

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Speaker 1: And we will be looking for our emails from the

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Speaker 1: Trump and Biden campaign, and when they reach out, they

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Speaker 1: will come on the show.

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Speaker 3: It'll be all kinds of fun. Thank you everybody.

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Speaker 1: Today we're joined by independent presidential candidate Robert F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy Junior, who has been every morning I.

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Speaker 1: Read the Wall Street Journal in the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: and I've been admiring how much heat you get from

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Speaker 1: the left and the right.

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Speaker 3: That's got to feel good.

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Speaker 1: So it comes, it comes like an equal It comes

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Speaker 1: with equal intensity from from each side.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now it is. I was getting it much worse

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Speaker 2: from the left until about I'd say three weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: And at that point, I think Trump organization was looking

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Speaker 2: at some of the polls which show that I was

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Speaker 2: taking more votes away from conservatives than it was from liberals,

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Speaker 2: and I think then you know they turned out me. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think you're right. It's you know what,

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Speaker 2: I sticked out a position in the middle. I said

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Speaker 2: that when I announced a year ago, I said, I'm

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Speaker 2: not I said, you know, we have this toxic polarization

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Speaker 2: in the country that is more dangerous than at any

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Speaker 2: time since the American Civil War. It's it's amplified by

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Speaker 2: the social media algorithms, which have learn the way to

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Speaker 2: keep eyeballs on the site is to four to five

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Speaker 2: people's worldviews, and that fees into this polarization because if

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Speaker 2: you're a Republican and you live next door to a

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Speaker 2: Democrat and you ask the same question of Google, you're

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Speaker 2: likely to get a different answer because they know that

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Speaker 2: if they reinforce what you already believe, you're going to

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Speaker 2: stay on that site longer. So they're feeding you. They're

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Speaker 2: manipulating us all with these algorithms, and those algorithms, which

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Speaker 2: are now no longer even under the control of Google

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Speaker 2: or any of these other sites, are feeding this polarization.

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Speaker 2: And to me, it's very, very dangerous because you can't

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Speaker 2: see any good end to it. And so what I

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Speaker 2: said is when I announced, is that I was not

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Speaker 2: going to feed into the polarization. I was not going

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Speaker 2: to vilify and marginalize my opponents. I was going to

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Speaker 2: instead of focusing on these sort of cultural worry issues

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Speaker 2: that are used to keep us all apart, and I

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Speaker 2: was going to try to identify the shared values at

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Speaker 2: unite Americans and make people forget that they're either Democrat

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Speaker 2: or Republican, and make us all remember that were all Americans.

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Speaker 2: And I think I've been pretty successful at doing that.

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Speaker 2: My favorability ratings are better than President Trump's, President Biden's.

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Speaker 2: I have the best highest favorability of any political leader

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Speaker 2: in the country than anybody else they measured. And Zogby

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Speaker 2: just did this huge poll that's twenty six thousand people,

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Speaker 2: that's ten times the size of any other polled on

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Speaker 2: It has a margin bror of practically zero, and it

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Speaker 2: shows that and I head to head race, I beat

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Speaker 2: President Trump narrowly about three electoral votes. And I had

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Speaker 2: to head race, I beat President Biden by a landside

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Speaker 2: thirty nine states. He wins eleven. And so I think

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of Americans who would like to vote

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Speaker 2: for me, but they're the strategy of the Trump campaign

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Speaker 2: and the Biden campaign is to make you hate the

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Speaker 2: other guy, make you fear that if Biden gets elected,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be the end of the Republic. If

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Speaker 2: Trump gets elected, it's going to be the end of

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Speaker 2: the Republic. You can't you can't vote for anybody else

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Speaker 2: except for the Democratic or Republican nominee. And that's you know,

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Speaker 2: that's something I have to over the next five and

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Speaker 2: a half months. I have to persuade Americans that they

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Speaker 2: can vote for Hope instead of voting out of fear.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I had read and just as

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Speaker 1: I was kind of following your campaign in preparation of

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Speaker 1: having a chance to talk to you, and trust me,

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Speaker 1: I want to. I'd love to get into and we

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Speaker 1: will get into a lot of the areas that are

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Speaker 1: a particular interest to our listeners, which is habitat issues,

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Speaker 1: environmental issues.

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Speaker 3: Outdoor adventure. I'd love to talk about all that.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things I noticed that the Times

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Speaker 1: had these sort of back to back pieces, and one

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Speaker 1: was about signature gathering, which seemed like very far removed

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Speaker 1: from that seemed like personal decisions made by people out

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Speaker 1: in the field, rather than like very far removed from

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Speaker 1: any direction from the campaign around a signature gathering issue,

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Speaker 1: and the other was this, uh, this health issue about

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Speaker 1: a parasite. And I thought that was very funny because

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Speaker 1: I'm riddled with parasites. And one of my colleagues who

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Speaker 1: I was with today, we both had trick and osis.

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Speaker 1: And when I heard that, I felt like it made

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Speaker 1: me like you more because it just makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like someone makes me feel like someone from the from

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Speaker 1: the trenches man, like, like you know, it's like outside

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Speaker 1: of a coddled existence, like when you travel and stuff,

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Speaker 1: you just expose the things. So when I saw that,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any I didn't have any sense of

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any sense of a want. And I

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Speaker 1: saw the nighttime comedy whatever you call them, the nighttime

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Speaker 1: TV hosts having a field day with it, and I

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Speaker 1: just felt like, I don't know, man, I reminded me

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Speaker 1: of my own things, that my own stuff I've encountered

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Speaker 1: from traveling in the developing world.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anybody who travels in Latin America or Africa particularly

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Speaker 2: or South Asia is going to end up with parasites.

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Speaker 2: And I, like you, I'm riddled with parasites. But I

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Speaker 2: had this, you know, this is thirteen years ago. The

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Speaker 2: Times found out about my so called brainworm because it

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Speaker 2: came up somehow in a deposition that I was doing

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Speaker 2: during my divorce thirteen years ago. And I mean, briefly,

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Speaker 2: it's not an interesting story, but I was getting the

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Speaker 2: severe brain fog and I was having trouble with word retrieval,

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Speaker 2: a short term memory and even long term memory. And

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine, I was in prison for the

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Speaker 2: summer of two thousand and one in maximum security prison

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Speaker 2: in Puerto.

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Speaker 3: Rico, and my well, that was around viks right.

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Speaker 2: Ice elmate was the head of the biggest labor union

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Speaker 2: in North America, which was SEIU, which and he was

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Speaker 2: hospital workers, the hospital Workers Union. And I happened to

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Speaker 2: be with him when I was, you know, worried about

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Speaker 2: this issue, and I started talking to him about it,

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Speaker 2: and he was deeply concerned, and he immediately got me

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Speaker 2: down to Columbia Presbyterian and they did an MRI on

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Speaker 2: me and they found this this black spot in my brain.

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Speaker 2: And my uncle had just died from glioblastoma and he

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Speaker 2: had had surgery on the gleia, which is a brain tumor,

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Speaker 2: and so and because my uncle Teddy was the chairman

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Speaker 2: of the Health Committee in the United States Senate for

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Speaker 2: fifty years. We knew, my family knew every doctor, you know,

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Speaker 2: every great doctor at least in North America and really

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Speaker 2: all around the world. And Teddy had had when he

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Speaker 2: got his glioblasphema as a very complex tumor. It looks

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Speaker 2: like a spider web in your brain. And he got

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Speaker 2: a list of these, you know, the best surgeons in

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Speaker 2: the world, and they were all on speed dial. And

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Speaker 2: then he passed away. And this is a few months

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Speaker 2: after his death, and I found out about this thing,

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Speaker 2: and so we had all of these great euro surgeon

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Speaker 2: on speed dial, and we sent the films to all

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Speaker 2: of them and they all said, yeah, it's a tumor

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Speaker 2: you got, so you have to have surgery. So I

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Speaker 2: was going to use Teddy's surgeon who was down at

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Speaker 2: Duke in North Carolina. And I was not believed me

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Speaker 2: looking forward to it. And you know, when Teddy got

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Speaker 2: his surgery, he was awake during the whole thing, and

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Speaker 2: they just they took off the top of his his

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Speaker 2: skull and they would the doctor would press the flat

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Speaker 2: part of the scalpel against certain parts of his brain

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Speaker 2: where the tumor was, and then he'd ask him a

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Speaker 2: series of mathematical and language questions and if he could

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Speaker 2: answer those questions, he'd cut out that little piece of brain.

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Speaker 2: What yeah, and if he couldn't. It was like Silence

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Speaker 2: of the Lambs. Did you ever see that box? It was?

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Speaker 2: It was very much like reminiscent of that. And that's

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Speaker 2: how they do it. So I was going to go

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Speaker 2: to that same guy, and I went down. I was

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Speaker 2: supposed to get my surgery on a Tuesday morning, and

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Speaker 2: I went down to Columbia Presbyterian to pick up my films.

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Speaker 2: It was a young Irish doctor. Remember every great doctor

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Speaker 2: in the world said that's definitely a tumor. You need

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Speaker 2: to getst surgery. And it was a young Irish doctor

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Speaker 2: in the office. And he and I struck up a

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Speaker 2: conversation with him, because you know, he was from Ireland

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Speaker 2: and we were talking about all and then he said,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing here? And I said, I've got

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Speaker 2: to go get brain surgery. I got a tumor. I'm

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Speaker 2: here picking him my films. And he said to he

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Speaker 2: might if I take a look at him. I said,

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Speaker 2: not at all. And there was a light box in

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Speaker 2: the room, and he put one of the pictures up

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Speaker 2: in the light box and he looked at it a

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Speaker 2: long time, and then he turned to me and he said,

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Speaker 2: I don't think you've earned surgery. And I said, tell

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Speaker 2: me more, and he said, I don't think there's a tumor.

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Speaker 2: And he said, what you ought to do is we

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Speaker 2: ought to take very precise measurements of it and then

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Speaker 2: come back in six weeks and see if he has

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Speaker 2: grown at all. And I did that in six weeks

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Speaker 2: it was exactly the same size. And he said, come

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Speaker 2: back in another six weeks, and we did it again.

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Speaker 2: It was exactly the same size. And that's when he said,

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Speaker 2: this is this is a parasite. It's eaten part of

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Speaker 2: your earth brain and then died. Oh and I remember

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Speaker 2: seeing that Twilight Zone when I was a kid, about

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Speaker 2: the about the you know, the earwing curls and the

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Speaker 2: guys and then they and they finally get it out,

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Speaker 2: but then they discovered it was a female and it

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Speaker 2: had laid eggs in there. So I was one of those,

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Speaker 2: you know, those classic Twilight Zunes. But anyway, it's gone.

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Speaker 2: And then what I found out after that is that

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Speaker 2: my mercury levels were off the chart. There are ten

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Speaker 2: times with Heba considered safe. Because I eat a lot

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Speaker 2: of freshwater fish and a lot of saltwater fish. I

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Speaker 2: had mercury off the charts, and I fished, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the summer almost every day. Oh and I eat

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Speaker 2: the fish, and you know I just had and their

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Speaker 2: predatory fish, the freshwater fish in this country are having huge,

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Speaker 2: huge mercury levels, And so I get the mercury key

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Speaker 2: laid out. My brain fog went away. So I don't

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Speaker 2: think it had anything to do with the braine worm.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, it was good copy for a couple of days.

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Speaker 1: And then one of our colleagues upstairs he had that

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago because he ran into that

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Speaker 1: he had we had been spearfishermen in Hawaii, but he

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Speaker 1: also had a bunch of hal a bit and stuff

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Speaker 1: from Alaska, and he eats a ton of walleye fresh

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Speaker 1: water fish and him and he got and he said,

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Speaker 1: I think what he's I think He said something like

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Speaker 1: he thought he had eaten about twenty meals in a

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Speaker 1: row of like pocivorous fish. Yeah, and developed that and

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Speaker 1: it started with some dexterity, some dexterity stuff.

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Speaker 3: And then yeah, and he had some, he.

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Speaker 1: Had some he'd call people forget why he called him,

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Speaker 1: but it went away pretty quick. But that's one of

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Speaker 1: the that's one of the earliest, Like, that's one of

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Speaker 1: those areas where you know, you spent a whole career

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Speaker 1: on water quality issues and spent a career defending fishermen

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Speaker 1: and natural resources.

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Speaker 3: That was one of the first. One of my first.

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Speaker 1: Introductions to how uh water quality issues impact people is

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Speaker 1: growing up in the Great Lakes and becoming aware of

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Speaker 1: the consumption advisories and we ate tons of fish the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes and becoming aware of that. And then one

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Speaker 1: of my childhood mentors and one of my dad's best

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Speaker 1: friends going into University of Michigan for these batteries of

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Speaker 1: tests because he had been consuming freshwater fish his whole life,

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Speaker 1: and he was part of some broad study of memory

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Speaker 1: loss in people who had consumed.

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Speaker 3: Whatever threshold of Great Lakes fish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then that is funny because in that area,

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Speaker 1: it's just not a thing people discussed. I lived in

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Speaker 1: Seattle for a while and we would fish Lake Washington,

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Speaker 1: and there were people that people were there just kind

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Speaker 1: of more aware, different time whatever, and there'd be people

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Speaker 1: who wouldn't eat you know, they wouldn't eat the fish

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Speaker 1: that we were fixing for him because of concerns about

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Speaker 1: you know, concerns about mercury in the water. And then

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Speaker 1: it's been explained to me too that even though we've

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Speaker 1: reduced how much mercury we're putting.

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Speaker 3: In the water, the ship never gets out of the system.

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Speaker 3: There's very slow to get out of the system.

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Speaker 2: It's slow to get out. I mean, it doesn't there's

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Speaker 2: no half life on mercury. There's a half life in

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Speaker 2: your body and your blood. There's a half life of

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00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 2: sixty four days in your blood from you know, the

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Speaker 2: from methyl mercury, which is the kind of mercury and

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Speaker 2: fish that there was a the National Academy of Sciences

293
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Speaker 2: and the FDA did a study in two thousand and

294
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Speaker 2: three and they looked at every freshwater fishing with America.

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Speaker 2: Every fish that they sampled had dangerous levels of mercury.

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Speaker 2: And every single fish. Oh and you know, of course

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Speaker 2: the predatory fish like well i and and you know

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Speaker 2: trout like trout, those kind of fish that are eating

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Speaker 2: that are high end editors are have have just you know,

300
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Speaker 2: and have what they call bullis doses really, you know,

301
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Speaker 2: just very very high dose, doesn't It occurred to me

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Speaker 2: when that study came out that we are now living

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Speaker 2: in the science fiction nightmare where my children and the

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Speaker 2: children of every other American and now no longer engage

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Speaker 2: in the seminole primal activity of American youth, which is

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Speaker 2: to go fishing with their father mother in the local

307
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Speaker 2: fishing hole and then come home and safe eat the fish.

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Speaker 2: And you know that is It's just it's when you

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Speaker 2: think of when I thought about it that age, I

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Speaker 2: was breath taking. I see that the same thing today

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Speaker 2: with lime disease. Lime disease is you know, I spend

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Speaker 2: I go, you know, I'm in the woods every day,

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Speaker 2: right and my whole life I've done that, you know,

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Speaker 2: training hawks and stuff. You have to fly them every day.

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Speaker 3: Oh I go.

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Speaker 2: You know, I lived in Melcisco, New York when the

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Speaker 2: deer tickets began appearing, and you know they you know,

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Speaker 2: we now that the strongest evidence is that those that

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Speaker 2: that disease came from Plumb Island, from the military, you know,

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Speaker 2: the USDA slash do o D Department of Defense bio

321
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Speaker 2: weapons labs on Plumb Island. And the story of how

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Speaker 2: it actually got to the mainland is, you know, is

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Speaker 2: another one of these incredible stories. You have them developing

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Speaker 2: a military weapon there and and then just poisoning everybody,

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Speaker 2: American ruining it. There's not a single Faulkner that I

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Speaker 2: know that does not have lime disease, you know, and

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Speaker 2: you can't think of any I remember coming home one day,

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Speaker 2: standing in the bath. I've been taking twenty nine deer

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Speaker 2: ticks off myself and you know, in the springtime, I'd

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Speaker 2: get them every single day. And it's just you know,

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Speaker 2: the woods used to be for me, were a safe

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Speaker 2: place to go, and now you know, you have to

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Speaker 2: think twice before you go in the woods.

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Speaker 1: My boy got he contracted lime when he was three

335
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Speaker 1: in Hudson Valley, New York.

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Speaker 3: We were fishing bluegills.

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Speaker 1: So there you get like you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: you get the double I guess you get the double

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Speaker 1: hit of heavy metals and lime, fishing bluegills and Hudson.

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Speaker 1: But he developed a facial paralysis. You know, I went

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Speaker 1: through limes.

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Speaker 3: He's not.

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Speaker 2: My son got that too, got ballast balls. Yeah, six

344
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Speaker 2: months and we didn't know if you and you look

345
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: at your kid when he's got that, and you know,

346
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 2: he goes from a very handsome kid to not a

347
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Speaker 2: very handsome kid and he you know, they have this,

348
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Speaker 2: and you know, we didn't know every day whether he

349
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Speaker 2: was ever going to recover from it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he would sip milk. It was this kind of

351
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 1: the thing that scarred us as a little bit. He

352
00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: would sip.

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Speaker 3: Milk and it would run out the corner his mouth.

354
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Speaker 1: And it was it was so that era that was

355
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 1: so scary and I got I got infected as well

356
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Speaker 1: and had to do the intravenous treatment.

357
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Speaker 3: But it was so that period was so scary that.

358
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Speaker 1: My wife and I put him to bed and we

359
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,719
Speaker 1: would routinely at night just cry. I mean, like embarrassing

360
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: to say it, but like we would cry at night.

361
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,360
Speaker 2: How old was.

362
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: He He was three, but he got he responded very

363
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 1: quickly to treatment.

364
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 3: But man, it was it was. It was a horrifying deal.

365
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of kids, there's the thing I wanted to

366
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Speaker 1: ask you as well, And I didn't really I didn't

367
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: know this about until yesterday.

368
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Speaker 3: Uh what was it?

369
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you went and met with and

370
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: talked to the met with and talked to the man

371
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: that was involved than your father's death in a pressor

372
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: what was that meeting?

373
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Speaker 3: I mean, what was that?

374
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Speaker 2: You know, I always listened. I always from when I

375
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Speaker 2: was a little kid, my uncle. The story about his

376
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 2: assassination was always strange to me. In fact, I was

377
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: in the White House when my uncle when I was

378
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: in the White House with my uncle's casket in the

379
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: east room, and my whole family was in there, and

380
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: I was, you know, at a nine year old kid,

381
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 2: and I remember President Johnson coming in and I was

382
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,719
Speaker 2: standing next to my aunt Jackie and my mother and

383
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 2: my dad, and President Johnson told them that that a

384
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 2: man had just shot Lee Harvey Oswald. And I said

385
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: to my mom when you know, when the conversation ended,

386
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: I said to my mom, why did he shoot you know,

387
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: the man who killed uncle Jim act that he did?

388
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: He love our family? Because even then my mind was like,

389
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: you know, this is a bizarre story. And and that story,

390
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 2: you know, of course, was never adequately explained. And Jack Ruby,

391
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 2: the man who Shotley R. V. Oswold, was an associate

392
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: of the of the of the Chicago Outfits, which is

393
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: Samjan Connor's mob. But he was directly associated with Carlos Marcello,

394
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: who was involved in the Kennedy assassination, and who was

395
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, he was one of the three big mob bosses.

396
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: There were three mob bosses who were recruited, recruited by

397
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: the CIA to kill Castros santostraf Conte in Tampa, Carlos

398
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: Marcela in Dallas and New Orleans, and then Sam and

399
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: Conne in Chicago. And the reason they targeted these three

400
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: is they all had casinos in Havana. And so then

401
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: the CIA basically became one organization with these you know,

402
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: with these mob families, and that there's so much evidence

403
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 2: now on the you know, the agency involvement in my

404
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: uncle's death. There's hundreds of books written about it, and

405
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: you know, there's millions of pages of evidence, and there's

406
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 2: in probably over the thirty confessions by people who were involved.

407
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: So I always assumed that my uncle was, you know,

408
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: that his death and Congress when they actually looked at it,

409
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 2: you know that of course, the Warrant Commission was run

410
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: by Alan Dallas, who's the head of the CIA, who

411
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: my uncle had fired. So they, you know, they said, yeah,

412
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: it's just one shooter, Lee Arvy Oswald. But then five

413
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 2: years later, Congress reinvestigated in the Congressional Committee, the House

414
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: Select Committee on Assassination said no, his death was from

415
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: a conspiracy, so and that you know, most Americans believe that,

416
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: and the evidence is now overwhelming. But I always believed.

417
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: I always believed that my father had been killed by

418
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: Surhan and then a man who one of my dad's

419
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: best friends, a guy called Paul Scharade. He was a

420
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: United Auto Workers deputy director and he had recruited Shaves

421
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: to the labor movement, and he had introduced my father

422
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: to Shaves, and that had become one of the most

423
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: important political relationships and personal friendships that my father had.

424
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: All Charde was walking next to my father when my

425
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 2: father was shot and Paul and they were walking into

426
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: the kitchen at the Ambassador Hotel. Al Sharade was walking

427
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: beside him, about a foot behind him and Surhan and

428
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: they were being led to the ambush site to where

429
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: Surhan was ending in front of the steam table. Surhan

430
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 2: fired two shots at my father and one of those

431
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: shots hit Paul sch Rate in the head. He said

432
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: he felt like he was being electrocuted. He didn't know

433
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: what it was. He just felt like he had stepped

434
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: on an electric wire and and he went down, but

435
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: he lived to be almost ninety years old. He died

436
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: about two years ago. And then the other shot that

437
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 2: Turrnan fired at my father went past my father and

438
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: hit a door jam, a wooden door jam behind him,

439
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: and it was later removed. The bullet was later removed

440
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: by the LAPD. Then Sir Ann was grabbed by five

441
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: men by you know, Rosie Greer.

442
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: George the writer, George Plimpton too.

443
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: George Climpton was on that dog pile on Rafer Johnson,

444
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: who was in nineteen sixty the Catalon champion, was very

445
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: close to my father. It was kind of acting as

446
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: my father's bodyguard. Back then, the candidates did not get

447
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: the Secret Service protection until you got a nomination, so

448
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: my father wasn't entitled to it. And Jay Edgar Hoover

449
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: offered to protect him, but he knew JEdgar who would

450
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: be spying on him, so he said no thanks. And

451
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: then the LAPD had a very bad reputation at that

452
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: time for racism, and oh they were they were not.

453
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: They were not part of it. So he was being

454
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: protected essentially by football players, by the fearsome forceome guys

455
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: from the Dallas Cowboys and from the Oakland Raiders, and

456
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: they chased down or they immediately grabbed her hand after

457
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: the second shot, and they took his hand and they

458
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: they they bent him over the steam table on his back,

459
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: and they took his gun hand and they pointed it

460
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: in the opposite direction away from my father. So and

461
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: ray For Johnson later told me that he, you know,

462
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: Rave was a big guy. He's like six foot four

463
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: and he'd been the best athlete in the world, and

464
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: he said he was and Sir Hann is this tiny,

465
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: tiny little guy, but he said he had superhuman strength

466
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: and they could not get that gun out of his hand.

467
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: Sir Ann was able to. It was a revolver twenty

468
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: two revolver and there were eight shots in it, and

469
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: Sir Ann was able to squeeze off six more shots

470
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: and empty the you know, the viral and uh and

471
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: those shots all hit people. So one person, I think

472
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: an ABC reporter, got hit twice, once through his pant's

473
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: leg and another time in the istomic. But all those

474
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: shots hit people. So we know what happened to every

475
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: single shot in Sir Han's gun. And he never had

476
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: a chance to reload. My father was killed by four

477
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: shots from behind. And the reason I know this is

478
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: be guyse Paul Schrey ten years ago told me, you

479
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: got to come to my house and pacity and read

480
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: the autopsy report, which was Tomas Neagucci, the most important

481
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: coroner in American history. And he did the and so

482
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: and I did. It's not something I wanted to do,

483
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: to read the autopsy report from my dad, but Paul Shrey,

484
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't really say no to him. He'd been shot

485
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: with my dad. He was his loyal friend. So I

486
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: sat down and read it. And if you read it,

487
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: you're like he innescally escapable conclusions that her hand could

488
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: not have killed my father, which is what Nagucci concluded

489
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: Nogucci when he did the autopsy. He knew what had

490
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: happened in Dallas with the autopsy was all you know,

491
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: the critique of that autopsy is is notorious. So he

492
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: wanted to make sure that he did an autopsy that

493
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: nobody would ever criticize. So he called it chief Corners

494
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: all the five branches of the arm services and had

495
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: them sitting in the theater observing him. And in the

496
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: medical literature, his autopsy in my dad is called the

497
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: perfect autopsy, and what he found is my father was

498
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: shot four times from behind and all of them. One

499
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: of the shots passed harmlessly through the shoulder pad of

500
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: his suit jacket, two of them hit him in the back,

501
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: and then one of them was fired from directly behind

502
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: his ear into his head, and all of them were

503
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: contact shots.

504
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: Were all those twenty two Those are all twenty two

505
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: Capri twenty two.

506
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: But the bullets don't match. And the police efforts to

507
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: fix the ballistics are very well documented. The deception that

508
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: they tried. You know, one of the ballistics expert in

509
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: the police department was involved in a deception. Oh the

510
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: and if you listen, there's two audio tapes of what

511
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: happened that night, and they showed that there were thirteen

512
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: shots fired. There were thirteen distinct booms on that and

513
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: all of the shots were contact shots, meaning that the

514
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: barrel of the gun was either touching my father's skin

515
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: or less than a half inch or quarter inch from

516
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: the skin, because they all left carbon tattoos on his body,

517
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: and they were all fired at an upward angle, in

518
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: other words, that somebody was standing right behind him concealing

519
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: a gun and holding it, you know, against him, but

520
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: slightly upward, and all of them were fired at that.

521
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: And then the guy who almost certainly fired those shots

522
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: was a guy I'm called Eugene Thane Sazar, who was

523
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: a He worked for a security agency, he called a

524
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: security and he had gotten the job only two or

525
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: three days before, after my father's schedule was already known,

526
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: and he was the one who grabbed my father by

527
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: the elbow and then walked him toward the ambush where

528
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: Sir Hann was raided waiting. And the opposition is that

529
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: when Sir Hann was firing those shots and all eyes

530
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: were upon him, there were seventy seven people in the room,

531
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: and he drew his gun and was actually firing the

532
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: kill shots. And when my father fell, he fell backwards

533
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: onto Saysar. But he must have known that he was

534
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: being shot from behind because he twisted around and he

535
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: grabbed Seesar's tie and it was a pull clip on

536
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: high and if you see the pictures of my father,

537
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: the initial pictures of him lying on the ground, he

538
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 2: has that clip on tye in his head. Azar got up,

539
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: pushed my father off, and got up from under him

540
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: with his gun visible. There's a dozen eyewitnesses that showed

541
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: his gun was drawn. His gun was drawn, which says

542
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: or never denied, and the police has some weeks later,

543
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: I was your gun drawn? He changes history many times,

544
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, he said he was firing and my father,

545
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: I mean firing at sir hand, which of course he wasn't.

546
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: And as it turns out, there's a woman, an historian

547
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: called Lesippes who's done a deep dive on saysar and

548
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: and his his employer was was uh Hughes Aircraft, which

549
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: is a defense contractor, you know, which was owned by

550
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: a Hour to Use who is deeply involved with with

551
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: the Las Vegas mob and then Bowing or Lockey. He

552
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: worked at a locky plant in la and he had

553
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: top secret clearance and he identifies himself as a CIA employee.

554
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: And he openly hated my father. He thought that my

555
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 2: father was going to turn the country over to black people,

556
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: which he complained about a lot. So I actually tried

557
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: to interview him. I tried to go meet with him.

558
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: He left the country after that and he went to

559
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: live in the Philippines, and I contacted him and said,

560
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: you know, would you be willing to sit down and

561
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: talk to me. And he initially said I'll do it

562
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: for ten thousand dollars, and then he raised it. When

563
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: I said okay, he said fifteen thousand. And then when

564
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 2: I was, you know, planning my trip, he said twenty

565
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: five thousand. I realized that he was that dude. This

566
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 2: was an andless game that he was going to play.

567
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: And and then he died during the pandemic. I mean, I

568
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: don't know why he died. You know, I don't mean

569
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: to imply that he died of COVID, but he died

570
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: during lockdowns.

571
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: When you we can move on after the after this

572
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: just one clarification.

573
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: When you when you went, how long did you talk

574
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: to him?

575
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: For I was there probably about four hours?

576
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: Was he.

577
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: What was what was his attitude towards you?

578
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: He was deeply, deeply grateful, He cried, He apologized to me.

579
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: For he doesn't he now no longer believes that he

580
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: killed my father. He is no memory of that night.

581
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: I mean, his history is very interesting because he was

582
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: working at a racetrack that was owned by one of

583
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: the top mobsters in l a. Mickey Cohen and Johnny Rizzelli.

584
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 2: And you know, the story is his lawyer was Johnny

585
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: Rizselli's attorney who suddenly appeared the night he killed my

586
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: father and said I'm representing him. And he was the

587
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: one who persuaded who would not look at the listics evidence,

588
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: and then persuaded Sirin to plead guilty. Sir is when

589
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: they were when he was working at that they they

590
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: got him to go on a horse one time, which

591
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: is crazy. He'd never been on a horse, and they

592
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: asked him to put him on. He five feet tall, right,

593
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: he's tiny.

594
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred and thirty pounds or something.

595
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's tiny guy. And he's yeah, I mean, if

596
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: you if you see him, he's a very sweet old man.

597
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: And he just kept he kept crying, telling me every

598
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: time I saw a picture of your mother and with

599
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: all of you kids, and you know, I realized my

600
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: part and in the death of her husband. It you know,

601
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: broke my heart. So he just, you know, he was

602
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: I feel like he was being honest with me. I

603
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: feel like he doesn't really have any guile, you know,

604
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: he's he kind of by then. I think he was

605
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: almost eighty years old, seventy seven or something, and he uh,

606
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: and he's been in prison for six years. Oh, in

607
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: the story of you know, of his story is interesting,

608
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: but you know, I know we got other things to

609
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: talk about. But anyway, it's uh, how how he uh

610
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 2: you know, his road is a really interesting road.

611
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.

612
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: But I just couldn't when I was reading about that,

613
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: I just couldn't picture from your perspective, what would be

614
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: like to sit across the room with someone who had

615
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: whatever happened that night was there with the intention he

616
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: was your father, and the desire to reach across and

617
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: strangle that guy, you know, would be strong for me.

618
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: You know you uh, you've done all kinds of first

619
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: descents like you're you You became a you're like you're

620
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: a white water enthusiast. Yeah, did your and then you've

621
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: worked like I said, you worked on behalf of fishermen

622
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: against polluters who are polluting waterways, destroying fisheries. Were you

623
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: Did you come into that love of water through environmental

624
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 1: work or did you come into that love of water

625
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: through outdoor experience?

626
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: Outdoors I was when I was I think I was

627
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: probably ADHD. I would go into a classroom, I it

628
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: was like they were talking in different language. I went

629
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: to school for the first grade at five years old.

630
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: I've never been in nursery school, and I just I

631
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: didn't know what they were. You know, I had no clue.

632
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: I was like non compistments, and all I was doing

633
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 2: was thinking of the woods. How I was going to

634
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: get you know, what I was going to do after school.

635
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: I was going to go in the woods. I was

636
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: going to check my traps. I was going to you know,

637
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: turn over rocks, climb trees, take a baby, grow, all

638
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff that I was doing. Catching snakes.

639
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: I had My room was filled with aquariums with animals

640
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: that I caught, and from when I was little, that's

641
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. So and then my father,

642
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: you know, was brought us, taught us how to kayak

643
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: Askma role and we were very very young kids. We

644
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: went on all the big western whitewater rivers at the time,

645
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: and you know, that's pretty common now. I think we

646
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: were told that we were among the first two or

647
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: three hundred people to go down the Colorado River. We

648
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: went with Hatch Brothers Expeditions, which was the first whitewater company,

649
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: and we did the Colorado, We did a little Colorado,

650
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: we did the middle fork of the zam and my

651
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: dad took us on the amp.

652
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 3: But they multiday trips.

653
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, week long trips.

654
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 3: Camping on gravel bars.

655
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah huh. We did the sam and the Snake is

656
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: really the Upper Hudson, which we did. I did the

657
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: Upper Husband with my dad in March during a blizzard

658
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: and that was the coldest up all that time that

659
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: I'd ever been in my life. And we swam, you know,

660
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: there was ice in the river and my brother and

661
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: I tipped our we had a tobo duo kayak and

662
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: we tipped it over and you know, uh and this

663
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: way that was really cold, and so you know, I

664
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: he got us into that whitewater from when we were

665
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: really young, and then we did a lot of backcountry skiing.

666
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: We were my dad really loved the wilderness and I

667
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: and then I started training hawks. I was raising homing

668
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: pigeons from when I was seven years old, and I

669
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: was like a serious uh hobby or sport where I

670
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: you know, where I lived. And then when I was nine,

671
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 2: I got my hawk. I got a read Tellahawk and

672
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: I had read a book. You know, my uncle was

673
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 2: president and there was books around about Camelot and there

674
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 2: was a book by T. H. White called The Once

675
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: Future King and I read it. EH White was a

676
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: brilliant author, but he was also a fulconer, and he

677
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: was a British falconer, and he has a chapter and

678
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: the Once a Future King is about the young King Arthur.

679
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: It was a chapter in it about Arthur apprenticing as

680
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,959
Speaker 2: a fulconer when he's a little boy. And I read

681
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: that and I said, this is what I got to do.

682
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: And I told my dad. My dad knew of a

683
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: falconer who lived about a mile from my house. He

684
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: was I called Alvin. I was one of the pioneers

685
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 2: of American falconry, and he had been an All American

686
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 2: football player at Penn State. He had then gone to

687
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: work designing jets for the Pentagon. But the state department

688
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: knew about him because whenever there was visiting Arab dignitaries,

689
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: they'd always send them over to fly birds with them,

690
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 2: because the Arabs are crazy for Fulton. And so my

691
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: dad knew about him, and my dad took me over

692
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 2: there and then I apprenticed under him, and I, you know,

693
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 2: I became a master faulk and ear at a young age.

694
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: I actually wrote the exam that people take seriously, Yeah,

695
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: what was bird? My first was a red tallowk. But

696
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I got. I got I think

697
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 2: probably one of the first Harris Hawks that anybody ever trained.

698
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: That Harris hawk is now the preferred hawk or globally

699
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: for ground quarry. If you if you train hawks, which

700
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: is what I actually prefer, you're taking ground quarry or

701
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: or you know, they can catch a pheasant on the rise,

702
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: or you know, occasionally occasionally, if they're really lucky, a

703
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: duck on the rise, but they could never catch it

704
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: in a tailchain. Duck flies ninety miles an hour. They

705
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 2: they can't nothing could take take it in a tail chase.

706
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 3: Like once that thing's off the water, you know, once.

707
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: They're they're like a bullet once they once they get

708
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: off the water, and they usually won't get off the

709
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: water if there's a hawk in the air. So you

710
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: have to have a dog, and it has to be

711
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: a very small pond like a golf course or something.

712
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: And but I I but Harris hawks are now the

713
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: preferred The people who trent hawks are called lost stringers,

714
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: and the preferred bird for them nowadays in every country

715
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: in the world are Harris hawks, because they're the only

716
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: hawk that flies that hunts communally. And in fact, when

717
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: Audubon first saw them in the desert Southwestn't he named

718
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: him after his friend, who is, you know, an ornithologist

719
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: named Harris. He assumed they were carrying eaters, because there's

720
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: no other predatory bird that eats in packs. I didn't

721
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: know this, Yeah, and and and so you'd see six

722
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: of them down on a quarry like a jack rabbit

723
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: or something, and you assumed they were you know.

724
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 3: Carries look like a bunch of vultures on there exactly.

725
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: And and that, but now you know, we know they

726
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: actually hunt in packs like wolves. And because they're communal there,

727
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 2: they're very very good companions for human beings. They understand

728
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: the relationship between the human and the dog and the

729
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, the whole interaction is comes very naturally to

730
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: them because they understand the dynamics of hunting in a

731
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: pack and hunting and hunting cooperatively and with kind of

732
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 2: communicated strategies to each other. If you see that, if

733
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: you're hunting the squirrels, you'll see them ladder up. One

734
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: will ladder up from the bottom up, you know, up

735
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: the up, the branches and the other one will ladder

736
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: down and squeeze the squirrel. They can't catch the squirrel

737
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: on it and it's on the tree because they don't

738
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: have a tight enough turning radius, and the squirrel will

739
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: the bark look behind him and keep an eye on

740
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 2: where the hawk is, and right before the hawk hits him,

741
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: they'll go to the other side of the bark, the

742
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: other side of the tree, and the hawk can there's

743
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: no hawk that has that kind of turning radius. They

744
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: can dodge hawks a whole day just by staying on

745
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: that trunk. So for a hawk to catch the squirrel,

746
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: that has to get it off the trunk and onto

747
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: a branch. And so that's what they'll do. You'll see

748
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: them do it. And all of a sudden, the Harris

749
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 2: hawks are so smart, like I've hunted red taillahawks my

750
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: whole life. And if it red tellahawks, he's a squirrel

751
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: going to a squirrel dray right the nest. What do

752
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 2: you call the dray, Yeah, squirrel tray. So he sees

753
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: them going to the dray for the red taillahawk, which

754
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: has been here for you know, at least since the

755
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: place is seen in ice age is probably a million

756
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: years before that. But that squirrel in the in the

757
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: mind of Red Tallahawk, that squirrel just disappeared, and that's

758
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: the end of it. Harris Hawk. If he ever sees

759
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: the squirrel going to a squirrel dray, he knows that

760
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 2: that animal is still.

761
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 3: In there and highly vulnerable, and he'll.

762
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: Go jump on the top of it like a like

763
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 2: a trampoline to try to get it to come out.

764
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: And then from then on, anytime he sees a squirrel dray,

765
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: he'll go jump on it to see if there's a squirrel.

766
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: So they're very they're very enjoyable. But I got one

767
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: in a pet store when I was a kid, at

768
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: the pet store in Southeast Washington, and I brought him

769
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 2: home and he got it. He got untethered. And I

770
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: had a pheasant run and I had some exotic pheasants

771
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 2: in They're like golden pheasants, silver pheasants. I just gotta think,

772
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: and the pheasants would eat all the grass inside them

773
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: run and they just stick their head out of it.

774
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: I had turkey wire which is about the diameter of

775
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: the pheasants had so they can squeeze their head to

776
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: that turkey wire to get the tall grass that you

777
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: couldn't get with them more there was you know, tight

778
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: up against the side of the pheasant run. They'd eat

779
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: that that deep green grass and they stick their heads

780
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: were there to get it. But because it was a

781
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: tight fit, they couldn't pull their head right out immediately.

782
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: They had to kind of, you know, work it out.

783
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: And that Harris hawk went to the and and it

784
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: sat in a tree above that pheasant run, and one

785
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: at a time he took the head off of every

786
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: one of my pheasants. And I came home from the

787
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: school and all my peasants were dead in the peasant run,

788
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 2: and I realized what happened, and I was like, I

789
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: got to catch that hawk and train it, because this

790
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 2: is like a really smart bird.

791
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: How do you catch something like that? I mean, he

792
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: used to It probably wasn't that regulated then.

793
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: It was no In fact, when I until nineteen seventy two,

794
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: hawks raptors were vermin species in twenty one states. So

795
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: the and they paid bounties on them, and they you know,

796
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: if there were an annual hawks shoots that were they

797
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 2: were sponsored by the Audubon Society up and the people

798
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 2: would go up on the right, Yeah, because they thought

799
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: they were killing songbirds, and people didn't understand ecology at

800
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: that point. They just thought, okay, hawks are the enemies

801
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: of farm you know, of chickens, so exterminating them is

802
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: a good thing. And they didn't realize the hawks were

803
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: also controlling the rodents and controlling you know. They just

804
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 2: didn't understand the kind of the complexity sure of ecosystems,

805
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: and they still don't, by the way, you know, otherwise

806
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be using so many petticides. But yeah, the

807
00:48:53,640 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Audubon Society and the game clubs and hunting clubs, the

808
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: the conservation apartments would sponsoring these hawkshits every year so

809
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: we could go out and just drap hawks and fly them.

810
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 2: And then the Eastern paragrine went extinct in nineteen sixty

811
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: three and people started worrying about them then, and in

812
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two they passed the Migratory Birds Treaty Act.

813
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: The hormit I didn't realize this. The peregrines that are

814
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: in the East, now there was an Eastern.

815
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: There was an Eastern, the Eastern in the Eastern and

816
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 2: Adams peregrine. It was.

817
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 3: That one extinct that one extinct. So paragons that have

818
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 3: repopulated have come from different regions.

819
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: You know what if they're mainly there were some paragrines

820
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: in captivity and we learned around nineteen sixty nine, we

821
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: learned to breed them, and before that they had never

822
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 2: been bred in captivity, and so and then you know,

823
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: Faulkners were the only ones breeding them. And there was

824
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: a guy called Heinzmanng who is one of my mentors,

825
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: who was the first scientists to breed a raptor in captivity.

826
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,919
Speaker 2: And then we figured out how to double clutch them,

827
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: which is you get the bird to lay a clutch

828
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: of eggs, three eggs. Take that away from them, she'll

829
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: she'll recycle, lay three more, take those away, and she'll

830
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: recycle a third time. And then so you have nine

831
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 2: eggs from the same bird every year, and you can

832
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: then incubate those and you can get the mother to

833
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: raise them because you're you're you know, handling handing her

834
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: unlimited food, so she can take care of nine offspring.

835
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: And we started mass producing them and then releasing them

836
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: to the wild. So the arrogrants that you see now

837
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: on the East coast are they're a little bit of

838
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: hybridized from some of the other subspecies, but you know

839
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: there are still there's a lot of them. Are you

840
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: know pure bread Eastern atoms? There were bread and captivity

841
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 2: and then released.

842
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 1: If walk through how you got how you transitioned into

843
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: environmental law and focused on the Hudson and then focused

844
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: on a widening bunch of rivers and then became aligned

845
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: with fishermen and fisheries restoration.

846
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got. I was a Heroinagton for fourteen years.

847
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: I got somber in nineteen eighty three, and then I

848
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: rethought my life and I had gone into the DA's

849
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 2: office and I kind of had this you know life

850
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 2: that was almost kind of trying to follow my father's footsteps.

851
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,479
Speaker 2: I had gone to the same law school, the same college.

852
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: I had gone into prosecution the way that he and I.

853
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: I realized that I was not authentic for me, that

854
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: I really belonged doing something in the woods and in

855
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: the waterways, and you know that that's where I was

856
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: happy and that's what I wanted to do with my life.

857
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I wanted to be a

858
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 2: scientist or a vet or to do you know, something

859
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: like a field biologist. It's somebody who was outside all

860
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: the time. And so I decided to take you know,

861
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 2: my legal education and meld it with you know, in

862
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: some way with doing environmental environmental protection, environmental advocacy, and

863
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: I ended up working for a blue collar coalition of

864
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: commercial and recreational fishermen on the Hudson River and who

865
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: were trying to reclaim the Hudson from its polluters. We

866
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 2: have on the Hudson the oldest commercial fishery in North America.

867
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: It's three hundred and fifty years old. Many of the

868
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: people that I represent come from families that have been

869
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: fishing the river continuously since Dutch colonial times. It's a

870
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 2: traditional gear fishery, so they use the same fishing methods

871
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: that were taught by the Algonquin Indians city the original

872
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: Dutch settlers of New Amsterdam, and then passed down through

873
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 2: the generations and one of enclaves. But the commercial fishery

874
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: is a little village called Crotonville, New York.

875
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've been there.

876
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's thirty miles north of New York City on

877
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,879
Speaker 2: the east bank of the river. And the people who

878
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 2: live there in nineteen sixty six were not your kind

879
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 2: of prototypical affluent environmentalists. They were factory workers, carpenters, lay,

880
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: there's electricians. Half the people in Crotonville made their living

881
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: or at least some part of the living fishing or

882
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: crabbing the river. You have a big beautiful picture of

883
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: a basket of blue crabs Chesapeake Bay. But we have

884
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 2: the same fishery in the Hudson. You know, the blue

885
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 2: crabs come up to the Hudson as well. We have a

886
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: lot of the anagmus fish come up to the Hudson, include.

887
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: Shad, historic sturgeon, sturgeon.

888
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a sturge in the river that are

889
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: twelve feet long. Two hundred pounds of cavy are in them.

890
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 2: It's a very very big fishery, very gugre fishery for

891
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: a lot of people. Striped bass, and then the smaller

892
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: fisheries harrying ale wives, blue crab, and there's a little

893
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: bit of shrimp in the river, and and and then

894
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: there's some odd odd fisheries like shrimp and goldfish, you know,

895
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 2: and and there's carp There used to be a big

896
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: carb fishery for gefilter fish. The Jewish population during certain

897
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: Jewish holidays, it is a popular. So we have a

898
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: mixture of freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and an adremus fish

899
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: and an amus fish, the fish that evolved in fresh water,

900
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 2: but they figured out how to go to the salt

901
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: water to feed themselves in fat and they but their

902
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 2: eggs will not survive in saltwater. They have to come

903
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: back up into the freshwater their natal stream to spawn

904
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: because the eggs would die if they were in salt water.

905
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 2: And so and those are called a nadumant fish. And

906
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: they're also admous fishing, the HUDs, and those are fish

907
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 2: American American eel, of course, and they have the oddest

908
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: life cycle because they go out to the middle of

909
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: the North Atlantic to the Sargasso Sea and they meet

910
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: their European cousins there and then they breed and they

911
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: all go back to their natal streams. And you know,

912
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,439
Speaker 2: of course an eel can breed air as well as water,

913
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 2: so they that's why you find them in ponds when

914
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: there's rainy, whether they go across the landscapes, you know,

915
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: at night during the rain and get in isolated ponds

916
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: and places. The incidentally, carp can also breed air and

917
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: catfish can you know the bullhead's kind of you. If

918
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 2: you ever if you leave a bullhead or a catfish

919
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,479
Speaker 2: in two inches of water and there were four inches

920
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: of water in the bottom of your of your you know,

921
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: bait bucket, it will it will drought, it will die

922
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: asphyxiate because it'll use up the option. But if you

923
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 2: leave it, and if you just take all the water

924
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 2: out and throw it in there, it will live because

925
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: it can breed air. Yeah, it just like a lot

926
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 2: of carp can do that too. But anyway, that's a

927
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: real serious digression. I went on in nineteen sixty six

928
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: and Central Railroad began vomiting oil from a four and

929
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 2: a half foot pipe in the Croton Harmon rail yard,

930
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: and the oil went up the river and the tides

931
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: and blackened the beaches, and it made the shad taste

932
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 2: of diesel. The fishermen couldn't sell them in New York City.

933
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,720
Speaker 2: The fload and fish market and all of the people

934
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 2: in Crotonville came together and the only public building in

935
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 2: the town, which was the American Legion Hall. This was

936
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: a very patriotic community.

937
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: Most of it speaks to the blue collar nature of

938
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,919
Speaker 1: what you talk about, that that form of like blue

939
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: collar environmentalism exactly.

940
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 3: And the.

941
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 2: Almost all the original members and founders and board members

942
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: of Riverykeeople were former Marines. They were combat veterans from

943
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 2: World War Two, mainly from Korea. Also, I'm from Vietnam.

944
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: And they came back to the river, you know, to

945
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 2: fish again, and they found it was up polluted. They

946
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: came together that night in March of nineteen sixty six,

947
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 2: and there were three hundred people in the Parker Bale

948
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: American Legion, all leaning against the rifle racks hanging from

949
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 2: the rafters, men and women, furious about what was being

950
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: stolen from them, because then, you know, the Hudson was everything.

951
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: It was there. It was there, not just their recreation,

952
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: it was their livelihoods, it was their property values, it

953
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: was it was their backyard, and it was being stolen

954
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: from them by these large corporate entities over whom they

955
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: had no control. And they had been to the government

956
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: agencies that are supposed to protect Americans from pollution, to

957
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: the Corps of Engineers, the State Conservation Apartment in the

958
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: Coast Guard, and they were given the bombs rush. Richie Garrett,

959
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: who was the first president of the of what was

960
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 2: then called the Hudson Fishermen's Association later became River Keep.

961
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: He was a grave digger from Austin, New York, and

962
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: he was a combat veteran from Korea. Really yeah, and

963
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 2: he used to say about it. He used to say

964
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: to his new fellers, I'll be the last to let

965
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 2: you down. Because he was a grave digger, but he

966
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: was also he was He went with another another marine

967
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 2: named Mark Glalco, who was at that point an Eastern

968
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: Airlines pilot. He went to the corp of Engineers a

969
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 2: dozen times, begging the core Colonel to do his job

970
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: and shut down the Penn Central Pipe, and the core

971
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: colonel finally told them an exasperation, these are important people.

972
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: We can't treat them that way, speaking of the Penn

973
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 2: Central Board of Directors. Oh. By this evening in March

974
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty six, virtually everybody in Crodenville had come

975
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: to the conclusion that government was in Cahouesi with the pluters,

976
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: and the only way they were going to reclaim the

977
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 2: river for themselves is if they confronted the polluters directly.

978
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: Somebody suggested that they put a match to the oil

979
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: slick coming out of the Pen Central pipe. And burnt

980
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 2: up the pipe. Somebody else said they should roll a

981
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: mattress up and jam it up the pipe and flood

982
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: the rail yard with its own waist. And then somebody

983
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: else said they should float a raft of dynamite into

984
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 2: the intake of the Indian Point power Plant, which at

985
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: that time was killing a million fish a day on

986
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 2: its intake screens and taking food off their family tables.

987
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: And a guy stood up whose name was Bob Boyle,

988
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 2: and he was a famous fly fisherman and spin fisherman.

989
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: He written dozens of book books on fly He has

990
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of flies named after him. He was the

991
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 2: outdoor editor of the Sports Illustrated for sixty sixty five years.

992
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 2: He was a combat veteran from Vietnam. He actually was

993
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 2: at at the training camp. He was a roommate of

994
00:59:55,160 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 2: Robert Bork this, you know, the federal judge. But he

995
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: had been he was a first lieutenant, had eighty percent

996
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: mortality in Korea, and he had come back from Korea.

997
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 2: And he wrote about sports, mainly outdoor sports, for Sports

998
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 2: Illustrated for sixty five years. Two years earlier he'd written

999
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 2: an article about angling in the Hudson. There's some real

1000
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: odd balls who fish in the HUDs. And there's these

1001
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: sewer fishing clubs in Manhattan, you know that fished through

1002
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 2: the Greats. And he was writing about all these these

1003
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 2: weird sort of cultures of people who found, you know,

1004
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 2: wilderness experience in the HUDs and you know, walked off

1005
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: a pavement in New York and were renewing themselves spiritually

1006
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 2: and in all these other ways through this contact with

1007
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 2: the water. And it was a beautiful article. And in

1008
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 2: researching that article, he came across an ancient navigational statue

1009
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 2: called the eighteen eighty eight Rivers in Harbors Act. That

1010
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 2: statute said it was illegal to pollute any waterway in

1011
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 2: the United States. You had to be a big penalty

1012
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: if you got caught. But also there was a bounty

1013
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 2: provision that said that anybody who turned in the polluter

1014
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 2: got to keep half the fine. And Boyle was stunned

1015
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: when he read this, and he sent a copy of

1016
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 2: it to the libel lawyer, said Time magazine, Time Ink,

1017
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 2: which owned Sports Illustrated, And he knew those guys, they

1018
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: were the only lawyers he knew, And he said, is

1019
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 2: this still good law? And they sent him a memo

1020
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:30,479
Speaker 2: back saying it's still good law, but in eighty years

1021
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: it's never been in force. And that evening, when all

1022
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 2: these men and women were talking about violence, he stood

1023
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 2: up in front of him with a copy of that

1024
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 2: memo and he said, we shouldn't be talking about breaking

1025
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 2: the law. We should be talking about in force here.

1026
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 2: And they resolved that night they were going to start

1027
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 2: a group that was then called the Hudson River Fishermen's

1028
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 2: Association later became a River Keeper, and they were going

1029
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 2: to go out and track down and prosecute every polluter

1030
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 2: on the Hudson. Eighteen months later, they shut down the

1031
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: Penn Central Pipe, elected the first bounty in the United

1032
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 2: States history against the corporate polluter. They got to keep

1033
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: two thousand dollars, which was a huge amount of money.

1034
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 2: In Crotonville, New York in nineteen sixty eight, they were

1035
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 2: two weeks of wild celebration in the town and they

1036
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: used the money that was left over to go after

1037
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 2: see Baguygee tuc tape, Standard brand, American cyanimid the biggest

1038
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: corporations in the country and winning, collecting tens of thousands

1039
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: of dollars in bounties, and then in nineteen seventy three,

1040
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: they collected the highest penalty in the United States history

1041
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 2: against the corporate polluter. They got two hundred thousand dollars

1042
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 2: from Aniconda Iron Cable for dumping toxics at Hastings, New York.

1043
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 2: They used the money to build a boat, which they

1044
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 2: called the River Keeper, and they began patrolling the Hudson,

1045
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 2: tracking down polluters and litigating against them. And then they

1046
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: hired using bounty money. In nineteen eighty three, they hired

1047
01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: their first full time river keeper, a commercial fisherman named John,

1048
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: and he hired me a year later using bounty money

1049
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 2: as the first attorney and a full time attorney for them.

1050
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: And I, you know, I started a clinic at a

1051
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 2: local law school called Pace where my students were allowed

1052
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: to practice law under my supervision. I got a special

1053
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 2: court order, and you know, we just started litigating against

1054
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 2: hundreds of polluters. We brought over five hundred lawsuits against

1055
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 2: hundred river polluters. We forced polluters, just meant five and

1056
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 2: a half billion dollars remediating the Hudson. Today, the Hudson

1057
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 2: River is an international model for ecosystem protection. There's a

1058
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: river when you know, when I started working on it.

1059
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 2: It was dead water for twenty miles stretches zero dissoltd

1060
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 2: auction from New York City north and twenty miles from

1061
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: New York City south, I mean from Albany south. It

1062
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 2: was dead water, no auction, you know, essentially no auction

1063
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 2: breathing life, and it caught fire. It turned color every

1064
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: week depending on what colors they were painting the trucks

1065
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 2: at the GM plant and Arytown. And today the Hudson

1066
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 2: is the richest waterway in the North Atlantic. It produces

1067
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: more pounds of fish per acre, more biomass per gallon

1068
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 2: than any of the waterway in the Atlantic Ocean north

1069
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: of the Equator, on both sides of the Atlantic. It's

1070
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 2: the last major rivers has some left on both sides

1071
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 2: of the Atlantic, and all throw it in the Mediterranean

1072
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: and the Black Sea, the Baltic Sea, the Marmer Sea,

1073
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 2: all these other waterways. There's only one river left that

1074
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 2: still has strong splilnting stocks of all of its historical

1075
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 2: species of migratory fish. And the Hudson is Noah's Ark.

1076
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 2: It's a species warehouse. It's the last refuge for many

1077
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 2: of these animals that are going extinct elsewhere. The miraculous

1078
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 2: resurrection the Hudson inspired the creation of river keepers elsewhere.

1079
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: So we had a bunch of commercial fishermen come down

1080
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 2: and ask me to seho the you know, all of

1081
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: the sewer plants in Connecticut. There were stor destroying the

1082
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: oyster fisheries. And I issued every city. I sued Greenwich, Norwalk, Branford, Stanford,

1083
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 2: and all the way up down, all the way up

1084
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 2: and down, you know the rail line. I sued every

1085
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 2: city on the coast of Connecticut, and we started collecting

1086
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands dollars from them. We started Long Island Soundkeeper,

1087
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 2: the commercial fishermen there. We got the surfers coming from

1088
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 2: the West coast, you know, with the same thing, and

1089
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 2: within a few years we had a couple of hundred

1090
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 2: river keepers. We started a new group called water Keeper

1091
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 2: Alliance to manage the licensing of these new groups, to

1092
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 2: make sure we can protect the brand. And today we

1093
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: have five hundred water We're the biggest water protection group

1094
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 2: in the world. We have five hundred water keepers from

1095
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,919
Speaker 2: forty six countries and and you know there are there.

1096
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 2: It's a law enforcement group. Most countries have laws that

1097
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 2: forbid water pollution. The water belongs to people. It doesn't

1098
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 2: belong to the government. It doesn't belong to you know,

1099
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 2: corporations or big ag or you know the mining companies.

1100
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 2: It belongs to the people. Everybody has a right to

1101
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: use it. Nobody can use it in a way that

1102
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 2: diminishes or injures. It's used in enjoyment by others. This

1103
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 2: is an ancient law, goes back to Roman times. It's

1104
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 2: in the Code of Justinian, it's in the Magna Carta,

1105
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 2: and it's in the laws of most countries. The problem

1106
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 2: is those laws are almost never enforced. And what we do,

1107
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 2: a function we serve and water keeper is, you know,

1108
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: is to enforce those laws on behalf of people who

1109
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: are injured by pollution.

1110
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 3: When you look at if you were in the White.

1111
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: House and you looked at let's start with we can

1112
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: start with priorities for EPA. If you have opinions on

1113
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: what you do around Interior department, priorities for the Interior Department.

1114
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 3: Who you'd like to see as Secretary of Interior.

1115
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 2: How'd you like that job? Would you seriously would you

1116
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 2: take would you look at taking a job?

1117
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 3: I would? I would love to take it. I have

1118
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 3: some people that would consult with.

1119
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: And I was telling the other day if I ever

1120
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: got into politics, I would do and I heard you

1121
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 1: do it earlier. I would first make a list of

1122
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: every bad thing I.

1123
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 3: Ever did and make it a Google Drive doc and

1124
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 3: hit share with the country.

1125
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: And that's what I did. I was addicted to her

1126
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: one fourteen years. No one's gonna dig that.

1127
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 2: I said. When I announced, I said, you know, I said,

1128
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 2: I didn't expect to run for president and I and

1129
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 2: if I did, I would have lived a very very

1130
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 2: different life. I led a very reckless life and you know,

1131
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: high risk, a high risk individual. And I said, I am.

1132
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 2: I told Eryl, I said, I've got I've got. I've

1133
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: got so many skeletons in my closet. And if they

1134
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 2: could vote, I could get elected king of the world.

1135
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: Which one of those you want to Which one of

1136
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: those you want to start with? If you really look

1137
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: at like, what what would you what will be a

1138
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: set of priorities for you with the e p A

1139
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 1: or what would be a set of priorities.

1140
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 2: Here's what I have. I have been working on environmentalities

1141
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 2: for forty years and I found out from them from

1142
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 2: the beginning that you need to be able to talk

1143
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 2: to people. I you know, my whole thing was bringing

1144
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 2: hundreds of hooking bullet of people into the environmental moment

1145
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 2: who were left out because in the eighties when I

1146
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 2: was doing this, the hooking Bullet people felt that, you know,

1147
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,560
Speaker 2: they felt alienated from you know, from the mainstream environmentalists.

1148
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 2: They felt they didn't you know, there was a lot

1149
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 2: of antagonism. There was a lot of antagonism of our

1150
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 2: public lands issues in the world West. And you know,

1151
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 2: whether you know, public lands should be managed exclusively for

1152
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:16,959
Speaker 2: game or wi should they be managed for hunting and fishing,

1153
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 2: and you know, and these were all farming or ranching,

1154
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 2: These were all areas of conflicts. And then there was

1155
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 2: you know, you know, a lot of environmentalists were kind

1156
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 2: of liberal and you know, and and maybe leaned a

1157
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 2: little bit towards antique gun and so you had that conflict,

1158
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 2: you had those areas of antagonism.

1159
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 1: I think that that's why you wound up. These words

1160
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: have their own etymology in their own use case, but

1161
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:49,599
Speaker 1: I think that's why you wound up eventually with people

1162
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: who would identify as environmentalists and you have people that

1163
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: would identify as the conservations. Yeah, right, So there's like, yeah,

1164
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 1: you're within each of these, whether you describe yourself as

1165
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 1: one or the other.

1166
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 3: I often describe myself as a conservationists.

1167
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:10,719
Speaker 1: There's a I don't know eighty percent overlap right between

1168
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 1: those views, you know.

1169
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, they just they just but.

1170
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 1: Became comfortable with different terms even though they were largely talking.

1171
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 3: About the same things. Yeah, but it's I think it's

1172
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 3: it's that to avoid.

1173
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like Ducks Unlimited's not consider itself

1174
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: part of the environmental movement at all, right, and they

1175
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 2: should have and that.

1176
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 3: Well if you they are a leader of the environmental of.

1177
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,600
Speaker 2: Course, of course, but they weren't talking to you know,

1178
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 2: you know, in our DC and EDS and to see

1179
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 2: Era club. They were not. It was It's very it

1180
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 2: was very and what I wanted.

1181
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:50,839
Speaker 3: They were litigating as much, right, either.

1182
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 2: They were less litigious, but they were just I don't

1183
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 2: know why, but it you know, there was they didn't

1184
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 2: They they felt alienated and lot of my kind of

1185
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 2: mission was to bring those groups in and I I started,

1186
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, I always tried to talk in a way

1187
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 2: that was inclusive of those groups. And today, you know,

1188
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 2: if you want to, I think one of the big

1189
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 2: mistakes of the environmental movement has made. The biggest mistake

1190
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 2: is to become the kind of carbon fundamentalists and to

1191
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 2: forget about the issues that made us all environmentalists, which is,

1192
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 2: you know, saving the oceans and saving the soils and

1193
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 2: saving habitat and keeping our kids safe from toxins. And

1194
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 2: if you talk about climate today, you're gonna you're gonna

1195
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 2: cause a fistfight. And because you know, and with good reason,

1196
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 2: one is because it's a it's an issue. You know,

1197
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 2: I found this for the fishermen very early on, and

1198
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 2: they didn't really want to talk about it. Because if

1199
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 2: you're being asked to give up to something because of

1200
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 2: a line that somebody shows you on a graph that

1201
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 2: says you're going to be daddy here, and they're asking

1202
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,679
Speaker 2: you to give up income, you know that's going to

1203
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 2: help your family, You're going to push back against that.

1204
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 2: But if you ask somebody to make a sacrifice to

1205
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 2: keep toxics out of their food, to keep their water

1206
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 2: clean so there's no mercury in the fish, they will

1207
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 2: pay anything to do that. And you know, when we

1208
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 2: were fighting the lead contamination in the water in Flint, Michigan,

1209
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 2: we had Hell's Angels standing shoulders shoulder with urban blacks.

1210
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 2: When we went to you know, at Standing Rock, we

1211
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 2: had business people, Republicans, union people, democrats, every kind of

1212
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 2: person was at Standing Rock for the Keystone pipeline. Because

1213
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 2: we didn't market it as a climate isge. He marked

1214
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 2: protecting sacred places, and you know, purple mountains, majesties and

1215
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 2: Americans will do anything to protect their sacred place. You know,

1216
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 2: I've been fighting the coal industry for forty years, but

1217
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 2: I don't focus on climate. I focus on things that

1218
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 2: are tangible to people. I focus on, you know, the

1219
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 2: destruction of the Appalachian Mountains. The Appalachians are the ridges

1220
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 2: ecoism terrestrial ecosistm in North America. And the reason for

1221
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 2: that is during the places in ice age, when they

1222
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 2: were two and a half miles of ice over where

1223
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 2: my house was in Mount Kisso, New York, the forest

1224
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 2: disappeared in America. North American continent turned into a tundrad,

1225
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 2: and the forest disappeared almost all together except in a

1226
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 2: couple of tiny refuge ins, and the biggest one of

1227
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 2: those was Appalasia. Oh and then when the ice melted

1228
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 2: and withdrew all of North America was receded from the

1229
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 2: Appalachian Mountains. So that's why you know, if you go

1230
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 2: up to a forest and you know in upstate New

1231
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,559
Speaker 2: York or the Hudson Valley or New England, there's typically

1232
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 2: three dominant species and an applash there's eighty six dominant species.

1233
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 2: You know, the diversity is extraordinary. We're exploding I think

1234
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 2: twenty eight hundred tons of ammonia nitrate explosives a week.

1235
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 2: It's the equivalent of a Hirosima bomb once a week

1236
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 2: by by these big companies Pebity Coso Massacre. They're blowing

1237
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 2: the tops off the mountains to get at the coal

1238
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 2: seams beneath. There's they've leveled one point four million acres.

1239
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 2: That's bigger than the state of Delaware. If you drive

1240
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 2: in West Virginia today, you drive on a road and

1241
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 2: you'll see these beautiful mountain sides and eats either side.

1242
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 2: But if you fly over it in a helicopter, they're

1243
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 2: just Hollywood sets behind them. There's just one hundred square

1244
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 2: miles of devastation. It looks like a open quarry. And

1245
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 2: they can never refill them. They can never rebuild them.

1246
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 2: And if Americans knew what was happening, there would be

1247
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 2: a revolution about it because people don't want to see that.

1248
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 2: These are the landscapes where you know Daniel Boone and

1249
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 2: Davy Krock It came into bluegrass music came out of it.

1250
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 2: Nests are racing, so much of our culture has tied

1251
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 2: up in this Purple Mountain's majesty. They filled twenty two

1252
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 2: hundred miles of rivers and streams with mining tailings and

1253
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, destroyed the water, destroy the fisheries, destroyed the

1254
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,679
Speaker 2: you know, the health of the population. It's the sickest,

1255
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 2: sickest people in our country. And you don't need to

1256
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 2: ever talk about climate. You talk, you know, you talk

1257
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 2: about asset rain as it rain has destroyed the forest

1258
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: cover on the Appalachians from Georgia to northern Quebec. You know,

1259
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 2: I grew up in the Adirondacks, which is the oldest

1260
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 2: protected wilderness on Earth. It's it's it was protected since

1261
01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 2: eighteen agers the Lincoln protect that it or you know,

1262
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 2: since the eighteen eighties it's been protected. And I'm thinking

1263
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,639
Speaker 2: of Yosemite with Lincoln, but the Adirondeck since eighteen eighties.

1264
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 2: You know, when Roosevelt was governor, it got protected, and

1265
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 2: we had an expectation of rite to believe that the

1266
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 2: Appalachian Mountains would be unspoiled for ever. It's called forever

1267
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 2: while that's the act. And I, you know, I grew

1268
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 2: up believing my children, then their children, their children would

1269
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 2: be able to enjoy it. But today twenty percent of

1270
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 2: the lakes and the Adirondacks is sterilized from acid rain

1271
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,599
Speaker 2: and nobody wants that, right. And you know, we're losing

1272
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:44,799
Speaker 2: the oyster fisheries in Washington where you've lived in Oregon,

1273
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 2: because the oceans are now becoming so acidic that the

1274
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 2: bivalves like oysters and mobilized calcium out of the water

1275
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 2: column to build their shells. And this is this is terrifying.

1276
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 2: And and then we have mercury and all the fish

1277
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 2: in our country and nobody wants that and that so

1278
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 2: if you all you're going to talk about is carbon

1279
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 2: And then you know, we just went through COVID a

1280
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:16,840
Speaker 2: lot of Americans and they saw out totalitarian elements within

1281
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 2: our society. Kind of elites use these crazies to clamp

1282
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:27,600
Speaker 2: down totalitary and top down totalitarian controls and to and

1283
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 2: to shift wealth upward, and you know, the same thing

1284
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 2: is happening with climate, you know, and I see it

1285
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 2: with you know, even with with what Biden's done in

1286
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 2: the Inflation Reduction Act, which is his big climate Act,

1287
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 2: that the money is going to carbon capture projects hundreds

1288
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: of billions of dollars, which are just a scam. It's

1289
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 2: a boondoggle for the oil industry, for the methane industry.

1290
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 2: And then to offshore wind farms which are producing energy

1291
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 2: at five times the couse of onshore wind farms, and

1292
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,400
Speaker 2: they were exterminating the whales and the marine mammals that

1293
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, we all we were drawn to the environmental

1294
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 2: moment out of love, not out of fear, out of

1295
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 2: love for these creatures. And you know, and we're now

1296
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 2: sacrificing those on the altar of carbon fundamentalism. And the

1297
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 2: real way to deal with the carbon is is is

1298
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 2: to deal with soils, is to restore our soils, because

1299
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 2: they we got to. If we do regenerate agriculture across

1300
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:34,799
Speaker 2: this country, we absorb one hundred percent of our carbon budget.

1301
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 2: That's what we ought to be focusing on. And so

1302
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 2: I'm not you know, I think climate change is existential

1303
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:44,040
Speaker 2: I think it's linked to carbon, but I, you know,

1304
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 2: I do only insist you believe that, and I think

1305
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 2: the approach should be more words, we're habitat protection, reducing toxics,

1306
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 2: restoring our soils, and then using markets to regulate our

1307
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 2: you know, using markets to regulate energy use. So instead

1308
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:08,440
Speaker 2: of top down controls, we get rid of the subsidies.

1309
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 2: We're giving five point two trillion dollars at subsidies to

1310
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 2: carbon every year. We should get rid of. We should

1311
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:17,520
Speaker 2: get of all subsidies to you know, to mature industries

1312
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 2: and then let let you know, let the different energy sources,

1313
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 2: of generation sources compete in the marketplace, and we'll get

1314
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 2: the cheapest energy and we'll get the most environmentally sound

1315
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: energy policy. People's say free market capitalis capitalism is the

1316
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 2: enemy of the environment. It's not in it. We don't

1317
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 2: have free market capitalism. We have corporate chrony capitalism, and

1318
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 2: we have capitalism for the rich, and this very kind

1319
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:54,679
Speaker 2: of or socialism for the rich, and that's very brutal,

1320
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 2: kind of barbaric capitalism for the poor. In a true

1321
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 2: free market, you can't make yourself rich without making your

1322
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 2: neighbors rich, and without it rich in your community. A

1323
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 2: true free market which promote efficiency, and efficiency means the

1324
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:12,800
Speaker 2: elimination of ways and pollution is ways. In a true

1325
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 2: free market, we would be required to properly value our

1326
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,640
Speaker 2: natural resources. And it's the undervaluation of those resources that

1327
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 2: cause us to use them wastefully. And like I said,

1328
01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 2: in a true free market, if you want to make

1329
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:28,160
Speaker 2: yourself rich, you're going to make your neighbors rich too,

1330
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 2: in your community rich. What polluters do is they make

1331
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 2: themselves rich by making everybody else poor. They raise standards

1332
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 2: of living with themselves by lowering quality of life for

1333
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 2: everybody else. And they do that by escaping the discipline

1334
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 2: of the free market. You show me a polluter, I'll

1335
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 2: show you a subsidy. I'll show you a fat cat

1336
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 2: using political clout to escape the discipline of the free market,

1337
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 2: force the public to pay his production costs. That's what

1338
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:58,600
Speaker 2: all pollution is. It's always somebody who's getting a subsidy.

1339
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 2: You know, a General Electric dumped its PCBs into the Hudson.

1340
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 2: It was escaping the discipline of the market. The market.

1341
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,599
Speaker 2: A true free market, every actor in the marketplace should

1342
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,640
Speaker 2: pay one hundred percent of the costs up bringing his

1343
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 2: product to market, and that includes the cost of cleaning

1344
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 2: up your mess, which was the lesson we were all

1345
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:22,240
Speaker 2: supposed to learn the Kindergarten. What polluters do is they

1346
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 2: figure out a way to externalize those costs and get

1347
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 2: the public shoulder their costs. So General Electric dump its

1348
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:33,640
Speaker 2: piec of bees in the river. It it. You know,

1349
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 2: when the State of New York said we don't want

1350
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 2: you to do that anymore, that gee said to the governor,

1351
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 2: Governor Carry and Governor Rockefellery, if you don't let us

1352
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 2: do that, we're going to move our plant to New Jersey.

1353
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 2: It'll get the taxes, it'll get the employment, and you're

1354
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 2: still going to get the pollution because we're going to

1355
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 2: do it from that side of the river. And so

1356
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 2: they caved into them, and then you know, twenty years later,

1357
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 2: General Electric left the Hudson Valley, left New York. They

1358
01:21:57,320 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 2: don't have a single employee left in New York. They're

1359
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 2: not paying any any tax revenues. They left behind a

1360
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 2: four point five billion dollars cleanup problem that nobody in

1361
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 2: the Hudson nobody can afford to clean up. And you know,

1362
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 2: everybody in the Hudson Valley is General Electrics PCBs and

1363
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 2: our flesh and our organs. They put out a business

1364
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 2: all of my clients. You know, when I started, we

1365
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 2: had a twenty five hundred fishing families in the river.

1366
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 2: Today there's one left, you know, and the Hudson. The

1367
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:32,200
Speaker 2: abundance of the Hudson has never been more better. You

1368
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 2: can't eat the fish because they got PCBs in them.

1369
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 2: And you know, so they stole those fish from us.

1370
01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 2: We paid to clean up the river, and General Electric

1371
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 2: privatize the Hudson. And now you know the Constitution of

1372
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 2: New York says the people that stayed on the Hudson,

1373
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 2: they own all the fish in the Hudson. But we

1374
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:54,000
Speaker 2: don't own them anymore. The General Electric Company owns them

1375
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 2: because they privatize them. And that's what all pollution is.

1376
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 2: It's somebody making a grab to privatize part the commons,

1377
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:02,439
Speaker 2: you know, part of the commonwealth, is part of the

1378
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 2: public trust, and privatize it. And that's a subsidy. I

1379
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 2: want to give rid of the subsidies. And that if

1380
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:12,880
Speaker 2: you talk about pollution that way, everybody nodds their head,

1381
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 2: you know.

1382
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I imagine, yeah, it's it frames it in

1383
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 1: the way, like you said earlier, frames it in the

1384
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:26,479
Speaker 1: way it frames environmentalism in a way where people understand

1385
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 1: the implication for the battle for rural people, the implication

1386
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 1: of the battle for you know, people who live closer

1387
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 1: to the land, rather than viewing it as some mechanism

1388
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 1: that is desirous to end their way of life.

1389
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 2: Right or leads grabbing control of your your freedoms and

1390
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:46,920
Speaker 2: your property.

1391
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not seeing it as in some ways a

1392
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,759
Speaker 1: way to defend your way of life, defending your access

1393
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: to clean water, defending your access to a stable fishery,

1394
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:59,479
Speaker 1: clean fish that you can eat, you know, clean water

1395
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 1: you can enjoy. We talked I'd mentioned the Interior Department recently,

1396
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 1: sitting in the same seat you're in. We had an

1397
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:12,120
Speaker 1: individual on who it was with the Nature Conservancy and

1398
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 1: we were talking about offshore wind.

1399
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 3: On the episode.

1400
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 1: When we talked about offshore wind, I had shared a

1401
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 1: fear of mind, and it's a fear of a lot

1402
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:25,920
Speaker 1: of my friends and associates who are who are involved

1403
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:31,720
Speaker 1: in the conservation movement, who are public lands advocates, and

1404
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 1: it's a growing.

1405
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 3: Fear that.

1406
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 1: In the pursuit of alternatives, alternative energy, there we could

1407
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 1: have some hasty maneuvers that takes some of our last

1408
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: vestiges of grassland, you know, grassland ecosystems, sagebrush ecosystems. Move

1409
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: it to a alternative. We went to solar arrays, wind farms,

1410
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 1: and then a fear that we're gonna do this, We're

1411
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: gonna make these compromises. Everybody's gonna do it. I think

1412
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:12,640
Speaker 1: it's the right thing. We're gonna exploit a bunch of

1413
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management properties, and then ten years down

1414
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 1: the road, twenty years down the road, thirty years down

1415
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: the road, we will see that we have not moved

1416
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 1: the needle on carbon, and we will have developed and

1417
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:30,840
Speaker 1: industrialized portions of our landscape. That's a roundabout way of

1418
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:36,200
Speaker 1: asking that, how if we pursue moving away from coal,

1419
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 1: if we pursue moving away from oil, how do you

1420
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 1: picture doing it where we don't need to have a

1421
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 1: net new or a radically net new usage of landscape

1422
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 1: to generate.

1423
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 2: Let me ask you get this. I presume the Nature

1424
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:59,160
Speaker 2: Conservancy guy that you were talking to was shared your

1425
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 2: point of values, or was he saying, no, we need

1426
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 2: to do you know, untethered wind offshore win.

1427
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 3: I don't want to miss current help me out.

1428
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to missstate his perspective, but his perspective

1429
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:15,800
Speaker 1: was this is the best the offshore being the best

1430
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 1: option we have.

1431
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's just not true. I mean, the offshore

1432
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 2: is a cataclysm. And I've been fighting offshore win for

1433
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 2: probably thirty years. You know. The big the first big

1434
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 2: one was in Nantucket Sound and I was representing the

1435
01:26:29,920 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 2: commercial fisherman there, and you know the problems. It destroys

1436
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 2: the commercial fishery and we have a sustainable commercial fishery

1437
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,639
Speaker 2: and Nantucket Sound, you know, we have we have small

1438
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 2: business people who are the heart and soul of America,

1439
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 2: who've been the oldest industry in our country, three hundred

1440
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,960
Speaker 2: and fifty year old industry. And you know, you put

1441
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 2: up these turbines and first of all, it kills the whales,

1442
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,759
Speaker 2: It kills the zeals. There's no doubt that that's what's happening.

1443
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing these around.

1444
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:04,040
Speaker 1: It sure seems it, sure seems like it. I think

1445
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 1: that there's a there's ways you can obfuscate that, or

1446
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 1: ways you can act like there's a little bit of

1447
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 1: a question.

1448
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if.

1449
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 2: There's a question, there's a precautionary principle. There's only a

1450
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 2: couple of hundred right whales left in the world, you know,

1451
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 2: so uh and and you know, you there there's such

1452
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:27,240
Speaker 2: a precise time correlation between them doing the you know,

1453
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:31,759
Speaker 2: the hammering for the uh to put these turbines into

1454
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:35,759
Speaker 2: the into the you know, with these giant nomadic hammers

1455
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 2: which make these reverberations, and then the whales all beach

1456
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 2: with their ears bleeding, you know, and uh. And it's

1457
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:48,720
Speaker 2: it's happening so reliably and so consistently around all the

1458
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 2: places where there's this construction. It's just a cataclysm. And

1459
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 2: then the other thing is it's non market base. It's

1460
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:58,120
Speaker 2: all the subsidy based. Nobody would be buying that. Nobody

1461
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:01,160
Speaker 2: would be building these if they actually had a market,

1462
01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:04,599
Speaker 2: if we had a free market. They're buying them because

1463
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:07,559
Speaker 2: you know, President Biden is giving them hundreds of billions

1464
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:12,040
Speaker 2: of dollars of free money to build these very lucrative towers.

1465
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 2: And then they're charging a minimum three times the price

1466
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 2: I'm on shore win and usually six times the price.

1467
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 2: So it's going to turn the whole public against green

1468
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:25,560
Speaker 2: power because they're going to be paying more for electricity

1469
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 2: than they are today. None of it makes any sense,

1470
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 2: you know. And I, by the way, I know a

1471
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:35,920
Speaker 2: lot about this. I know because I built power plants.

1472
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 2: I was on the board of them or as a

1473
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:40,760
Speaker 2: partner in the biggest green tech venture capital firm in

1474
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:45,040
Speaker 2: the country for a decade, and we built the ivanpap plant,

1475
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 2: which is the biggest solar thermal plant in North America.

1476
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 2: Another of my company has built the PVC plan at

1477
01:28:55,400 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 2: I mean not the BVC, but the solar plant at

1478
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 2: as Susanne Marie, which is the biggest you know, solar

1479
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 2: panel plant in the in then North America. And I've

1480
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:15,759
Speaker 2: I've participated in wind power in all kinds. My brother,

1481
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:19,400
Speaker 2: you know, sells wind power for a living. I know

1482
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:21,840
Speaker 2: what the cauts are. And the price of wind power

1483
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 2: on shore wind power right now is about eleven cents

1484
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 2: of killo white hour and these offshore plants are you know,

1485
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 2: are getting forty or more forty cents a kilo hour

1486
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 2: or more. And nobody wants to pay that for energy.

1487
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 2: It's destructive. So you know what I think is everything

1488
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,040
Speaker 2: should be market based. I think COLS should have to

1489
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:55,680
Speaker 2: internalize its costs and if it did, it be the

1490
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:56,759
Speaker 2: most meaning internalized.

1491
01:29:56,800 --> 01:29:58,120
Speaker 3: That's clean up in mitigation.

1492
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that you know, you can't have these piles of

1493
01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 2: you know, of at every stage coal is getting subsidized.

1494
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:09,719
Speaker 2: You know the roads that in West Virginia are twenty

1495
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 2: two inches of asphalt that we pay for because the

1496
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:15,719
Speaker 2: coal trucks weighed ninety thousand pounds. But they're not paying

1497
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 2: for that if they were, if that was affected, you know,

1498
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,960
Speaker 2: they can sell coal or you know, ten or twelve

1499
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:25,400
Speaker 2: cents of gill one hour in North Carolina cold cold

1500
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 2: on energy and everybody thinks this is really cheap. If

1501
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:34,000
Speaker 2: it actually had to internalize the cause it wouldn't be cheap.

1502
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 2: It would be the most catastrophically expensive way to boil

1503
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 2: a pot of water that's ever been devised. Because you know,

1504
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 2: because if they actually had to pay the real costs

1505
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,360
Speaker 2: of the acid rain of the mercury in our fish

1506
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 2: of half trillion dollars a year in respiratory injuries from

1507
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:58,760
Speaker 2: hozone in particulates destructure of the Appalachians that you know,

1508
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:02,600
Speaker 2: the destruction of habits that if those were quantified and

1509
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,719
Speaker 2: then build their account. You know, the coal burning energy

1510
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 2: costs forty to fifty cents, I'll kill one hour. Nobody

1511
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: could be using it. There's no single solution to this.

1512
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 2: The mining that's associated with these new technologies is extremely destructive,

1513
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 2: and you know, with the rare earth minerals, et cetera,

1514
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:27,560
Speaker 2: it is extremely disruptive to some of the most beautiful

1515
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 2: habitat place like the Congo, these like Alaska, you know,

1516
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:34,799
Speaker 2: which are going to get devastated by rare earth mining.

1517
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 2: And those costs have to be assessed and they have

1518
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 2: to be internalized. And then if you do that, you know,

1519
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:45,479
Speaker 2: and that's the way to do it. And what what

1520
01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:49,839
Speaker 2: we'll get is we'll get a lot of localized power production.

1521
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:57,600
Speaker 2: We'll get you know, not one big bullet solution, but

1522
01:31:57,680 --> 01:31:59,800
Speaker 2: we'll get a lot of smaller solution. And then there's

1523
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, listen, I'm not you know, I've always said

1524
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:06,679
Speaker 2: about nuclear power that.

1525
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:08,680
Speaker 3: This is good because this is my next this is

1526
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 3: my next question.

1527
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1528
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 3: I'm not a subject matter expert.

1529
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I I just I'm so far from a

1530
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 1: subject matter expert. I just can't help though, with thinking

1531
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:30,960
Speaker 1: that we need to be reinvesting there in terms of footprint, right,

1532
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:32,320
Speaker 1: in terms of footprint.

1533
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:36,760
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you. First of all,

1534
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:40,920
Speaker 2: what I think, you know my thinking about nuclear power,

1535
01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:44,799
Speaker 2: and I no longer consider myself a subject matter expert

1536
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:48,840
Speaker 2: because I'm told that there are technological improvements that have

1537
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 2: happened since I was litigating, you know, against nuclear power plants,

1538
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:56,799
Speaker 2: which I've done a lot of. But what I've always

1539
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 2: said is I'm I am for nuclear power if they

1540
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 2: ever make it safe and if they ever make it economical.

1541
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 3: Is that heavily subsidized.

1542
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is the most heavily subsided so that.

1543
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 3: But nowhere can put the seed money up to get

1544
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 3: that going.

1545
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,559
Speaker 2: There's not a single utility in the world that will

1546
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:19,240
Speaker 2: build a nuclear power plant unless it's fully subsidized. But

1547
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 2: they also they have a bill called the Price Anderson

1548
01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 2: Act because you know, if they say they're safe, but

1549
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:30,599
Speaker 2: they can't get an insurance policy, the insurance industry won't

1550
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:32,920
Speaker 2: write them a policy. And so it's not a bunch

1551
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 2: of hippies and tied eyed T shirts who are saying

1552
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 2: you're unsafe. It's guys in suits on Wall Street who

1553
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:41,720
Speaker 2: say we're not going to assure you, and you know

1554
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:43,720
Speaker 2: until they can buy an insurance. So they had to

1555
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:46,000
Speaker 2: go to Congress and get this act pass called the

1556
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,920
Speaker 2: Price Anderson Act, and a sleazy legislative maneuver in the

1557
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 2: middle of the night to give them immunity from liability.

1558
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 2: So if they're they're plant blows up, yeah, and you're

1559
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:57,680
Speaker 2: you go look at your home owners policy. You'll have

1560
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:00,840
Speaker 2: a line in it. This policy is not protect you

1561
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 2: from from from nuclear radiation from powerful And I lived

1562
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 2: eighteen miles from Indian points, so I saw that and

1563
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 2: it was a possibility. This is going to happen and

1564
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 2: I lose everything and I'm self insured for that insurance company.

1565
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 2: You're not gonna pay me. Oh that's you know. What

1566
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 2: I would say, don't get show is that you can

1567
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:24,280
Speaker 2: get an insurance policy like other industries and then we'll

1568
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 2: believe you're safe. But you know, because nobody wants to

1569
01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:30,040
Speaker 2: argue it with you, just get the insurance policy like

1570
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 2: everybody else does, and then you know, I mean, the

1571
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:36,479
Speaker 2: other problem is they don't really know what to do

1572
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:39,800
Speaker 2: with the ways it's they it keeps when they when

1573
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:42,639
Speaker 2: they first said they said, we'll figure that out by

1574
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,280
Speaker 2: the time we need to, but they never have. And

1575
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:48,519
Speaker 2: there's you know, they have to set you have to

1576
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 2: store this stuff now for thirty thousand years, which is

1577
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:54,360
Speaker 2: five times the length of recorded human history. So how

1578
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,479
Speaker 2: could that be economical? Right, You're just shifting the cost

1579
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 2: to a future generation. And but I understand there's new

1580
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 2: technologies that are promising and if that happens, what I

1581
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 2: would say to you, what I will do as present

1582
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 2: is the big problem in our country is we don't

1583
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 2: have a market markets or energy real markets. Oh, in

1584
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:27,919
Speaker 2: North Dakota. You, North Dakota is one of the windiest

1585
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:32,320
Speaker 2: places on Earth at the sea level. There's enough Scientific

1586
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:35,680
Speaker 2: American to a study that showed there's enough harnessable to

1587
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 2: wind in North Dakota, Montana, and Texas to provide one

1588
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:41,920
Speaker 2: hundred percent in the North American energy grid. Now, there

1589
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:46,160
Speaker 2: is enough solar energy in the desert in an area

1590
01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:48,559
Speaker 2: seventy five miles by seventy five miles in the desert

1591
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,439
Speaker 2: southwest provide one hundred percent of the energy. You wouldn't

1592
01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 2: do that because if a cloud passed over Arizona, you'd

1593
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 2: black out the country, right, But it shows you that

1594
01:35:58,400 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 2: it's out there and available.

1595
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 3: And if you have the technology, if you.

1596
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:06,880
Speaker 2: Store it and deliver it, really you don't even need

1597
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 2: so much storage technology. If you have transportation technology. So

1598
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 2: if you have a grid that is a national grid

1599
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:19,720
Speaker 2: with DC grid that can do long haul transportation of electrons,

1600
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 2: it reduces your need to store because you can manage

1601
01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 2: the whole system like an orchestra. Conductor manages an orchestra.

1602
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,400
Speaker 2: Because the wind in our country tends to blow at night,

1603
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 2: and the sun of course shines during the day, and

1604
01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:37,920
Speaker 2: the sun shines the period you wanted the sun. But

1605
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, the twelve o'clock is peak energy use, and

1606
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:43,400
Speaker 2: that's the time you're getting peak sunshine. So it actually

1607
01:36:44,479 --> 01:36:46,320
Speaker 2: and then if you throw in a lot of rooftop

1608
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:50,599
Speaker 2: solar and everybody is feeding into a marketplace, you have

1609
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 2: abundance of energy to manage the system. And let me

1610
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:56,240
Speaker 2: let me just you know, finish this kind of thought.

1611
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 2: In North Dakota, I think the revenue typicult revenue from

1612
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:09,800
Speaker 2: an acre of corn is about maybe two hundred dollars

1613
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:13,960
Speaker 2: a year. You're gonna get revenue if you have a

1614
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 2: if you have a winter termine on that acre of corn.

1615
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:20,840
Speaker 1: I got to interrupt you here to point out for

1616
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:25,720
Speaker 1: people too, that when we're talking about corn there, we're

1617
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 1: all talking about corn that goes a lot of that

1618
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 1: corn goes to energy, yeah, of course.

1619
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I just want people to be clear.

1620
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not necessarily moving food to energy

1621
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 1: because you do an ethanol productions not.

1622
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 2: Food in any case, it's commodity.

1623
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:44,040
Speaker 1: It's not even you know, it's energy.

1624
01:37:44,479 --> 01:37:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So but if you have a wind turbine on

1625
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:53,000
Speaker 2: that property, that farmer is making eight thousand dollars a year. Right,

1626
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 2: So every farmer in North Dakota wants to put a

1627
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:59,840
Speaker 2: wind wind farms on this property, you can't do it

1628
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 2: because there's not an energy grid that can get those

1629
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:08,839
Speaker 2: electrons to markets in you know, Cleveland, Cincinnati, New Orleans,

1630
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 2: New York, et cetera. Because the current system is antiquated.

1631
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:19,880
Speaker 2: It's it's it's underbuilt, under extended, and it's it's incapable.

1632
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:22,200
Speaker 2: It's an AC grid that's incapable of doing a long

1633
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:26,759
Speaker 2: haul transportation of electrons if you had the grid there.

1634
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:32,520
Speaker 2: There are huge amounts of capital from you know, General Electric, Seamens, Vestas,

1635
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,839
Speaker 2: all these giant companies that want to pour my capital

1636
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:40,479
Speaker 2: into building, into renting turbine, building turbines on those farmers lands.

1637
01:38:40,479 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 2: So the capital is there to do it, and it

1638
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 2: would provide a huge source of revenue for American farm families,

1639
01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 2: which we want to keep on the farm. We want

1640
01:38:52,400 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 2: to keep them on the land and make sure that

1641
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:57,599
Speaker 2: they're prosperous. And you know that Main Street is prosperous,

1642
01:38:57,640 --> 01:39:02,439
Speaker 2: et cetera. We have three different energy grids in our country.

1643
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:06,320
Speaker 2: They're not unified, and they none of them are capable

1644
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:08,160
Speaker 2: of doing these things that we need them to do.

1645
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 2: We need to build that energy grid and that, you know,

1646
01:39:12,160 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 2: the same way that we built a canal system in

1647
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:16,679
Speaker 2: this kind. We built a canal system in eighteen twenty five,

1648
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:20,280
Speaker 2: and you know, within a few years New York went

1649
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 2: from a backwater to being the biggest port in the

1650
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 2: world because you could the Erie Canal allowed Midwestern farmers

1651
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:31,920
Speaker 2: to put their produce on a barge and it would

1652
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 2: never get off a boat until it went to Europe.

1653
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:37,200
Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, you didn't have to haul

1654
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,479
Speaker 2: stuff over the Appalachians. The government built that canhouse system,

1655
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 2: the government built the highway system.

1656
01:39:42,240 --> 01:39:44,040
Speaker 1: And I was going to make before you mentioned, I

1657
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,240
Speaker 1: was going to bring up people people. I think kind

1658
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:48,280
Speaker 1: of feel like the interstate system sort of fell from

1659
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:48,639
Speaker 1: the sky.

1660
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:51,400
Speaker 3: No, it was it was like in the post.

1661
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,559
Speaker 1: You know, not just the advent of the car, but

1662
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 1: realizations we had during World War Two. It was a

1663
01:39:57,080 --> 01:39:59,400
Speaker 1: like a very deliberately constructed system.

1664
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was for national security reasons and for

1665
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 2: commercial reasons and to bring us together as a country,

1666
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 2: et cetera. And it was you know, I watched a

1667
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 2: build when I was a kid. It was horrifying to

1668
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 2: me because they know, plowed over the flora the pond

1669
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 2: where you know, I went fishing every day, and you know,

1670
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:18,720
Speaker 2: but and it was but they did it, and it's

1671
01:40:18,720 --> 01:40:24,000
Speaker 2: brought tremendous prosperity to our country. And so we need

1672
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 2: to invest in building this grid system and we need

1673
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:33,240
Speaker 2: to you know, right now, we have an energy market

1674
01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:39,760
Speaker 2: that is I'm governed by fifty public utility commissions, one

1675
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:44,439
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty control districts with these byzantine rules, this

1676
01:40:44,640 --> 01:40:52,600
Speaker 2: very bulk and high system that operates under under rules

1677
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 2: that were written by the incumbents by coal and oil

1678
01:40:56,600 --> 01:41:00,000
Speaker 2: to reward. The dirty is filthy, is most poisonous, most toxic.

1679
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:03,679
Speaker 2: War mongering feels from hell. Other than the cheap glean green,

1680
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 2: A wholesome and patriotic feel feels from heaven. Well, we

1681
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:10,840
Speaker 2: need to create a market that. Now, I'll give you

1682
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 2: an example. I had a house in Mount Kisco, New York,

1683
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:17,719
Speaker 2: and I had a state of the art solar system

1684
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:20,040
Speaker 2: on the roof, and I had a geothermal system in

1685
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 2: the basement. Every day of the year at home was

1686
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:28,160
Speaker 2: producing more energy than I was using. Why can't I

1687
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:30,880
Speaker 2: sell that access back onto the grid and get the

1688
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:33,920
Speaker 2: same price the utilities are getting, right, Why can't every

1689
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:34,880
Speaker 2: American do that?

1690
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:36,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna I wanted to ask you about

1691
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:40,160
Speaker 1: that when this subject first came up. Is that when

1692
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 1: you see those little bits of legislation come up basically

1693
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 1: saying if you do a solar ray on your house,

1694
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:47,759
Speaker 1: it's a you can't sell back.

1695
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 3: Is that?

1696
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:52,680
Speaker 1: Is there any argument for that other than them protecting monopoly?

1697
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:56,400
Speaker 2: There's no, there's no monopolies. That's what they're doing.

1698
01:41:56,840 --> 01:41:58,200
Speaker 3: There's no other reason why.

1699
01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 2: Okay, and what we wanted to that And it would

1700
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:05,839
Speaker 2: democracize our country because you turn every American into a

1701
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 2: into an energy entrepreneur, you turn every home into a

1702
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 2: power plant. You can give people a chance to get

1703
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 2: revenue from their homes to help pay their mortgage, et cetera.

1704
01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:15,720
Speaker 2: And why do.

1705
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,480
Speaker 3: They ever get why do they ever get legislative assistance

1706
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:22,280
Speaker 3: on those bills that prevent people.

1707
01:42:22,040 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 2: From those bills are all the state law lawmakers who

1708
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:30,360
Speaker 2: are passing them, and they're all, you know, owned by

1709
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:33,360
Speaker 2: the utilities. The utilities are given all the money. And

1710
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:36,000
Speaker 2: you can buy a state legislature very very cheap in

1711
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:38,480
Speaker 2: this country, and you can get that stuff past.

1712
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 3: And in most citizens this is not on their radar.

1713
01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:41,519
Speaker 3: They just start on their.

1714
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:45,280
Speaker 2: Radar and and you know, it's it's so important for

1715
01:42:45,360 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 2: democracy because the political systems of countries tend to reflect

1716
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:55,160
Speaker 2: their economic organization. And if you have the economy controlled

1717
01:42:55,160 --> 01:43:01,160
Speaker 2: by a few large energy producers oil coal utilities, the

1718
01:43:01,160 --> 01:43:04,679
Speaker 2: political system will tend also towards sort of a more

1719
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 2: totalitarian model. Whereas if the energy system is controlled by

1720
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:13,720
Speaker 2: two hundred million American homeowners, if they're your generators, you're

1721
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:17,680
Speaker 2: going to democratize the country as well. And you know,

1722
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,559
Speaker 2: we have such a pundan energy resources. We have some

1723
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 2: of the best solo in the world in this country.

1724
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 2: We have the best wind of any big nation in

1725
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:29,120
Speaker 2: the world, and we ought to be exploiting that, but

1726
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:31,960
Speaker 2: we can't do it until we build an energy grid.

1727
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 2: And let me give you an example of what's going

1728
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:37,879
Speaker 2: to happen. We built an Arbaet grid for the Internet

1729
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 2: in the Defense Department. Dart pub built the Arpanet grid,

1730
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:44,680
Speaker 2: which is was the beginning of the Internet in this

1731
01:43:44,760 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 2: country in nineteen seventy nine. A year after we built it.

1732
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:54,280
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty, the CEO of IBM said that IBM

1733
01:43:54,439 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 2: was getting out of the personal computers because he said

1734
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,439
Speaker 2: it was a dead end technology. Dell did that. There's

1735
01:44:01,479 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 2: a lot of other companies that got out of the

1736
01:44:03,439 --> 01:44:06,000
Speaker 2: business then because they didn't see what was about to happen.

1737
01:44:07,240 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 2: Within a few years, virtually every American has a personal computer.

1738
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:14,880
Speaker 2: And what happened because we built a grid, we built

1739
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:19,240
Speaker 2: a marketplace. And what happens happened to the cost of information.

1740
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:24,880
Speaker 2: It went to zero. Oh imagine you asked me it

1741
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 2: was important for some reason for me to find out

1742
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:33,200
Speaker 2: the answer to some obscure question, like, uh, you know,

1743
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:38,200
Speaker 2: what was Malose Tongue's typical lunchtime, favorite lunchtime meal. Let's

1744
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:38,759
Speaker 2: say I.

1745
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 3: Had to get you pre internet.

1746
01:44:40,240 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, look, okay, yeah, you'd have to go to Washington,

1747
01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 2: spend a week going through the library of Congress of

1748
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:48,880
Speaker 2: the stacks to dig that out, and you may or

1749
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 2: may not find it today. You can probably type it

1750
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:53,400
Speaker 2: into Google. It'll come right up.

1751
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:56,639
Speaker 1: I used a joke as a writer and I got

1752
01:44:56,720 --> 01:45:01,800
Speaker 1: going before definitely not pre Internet, but for widespread, you know,

1753
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 1: internet use. And I used to joke that I was

1754
01:45:04,680 --> 01:45:08,479
Speaker 1: very anti Internet because I had a competitive advantage that

1755
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:11,760
Speaker 1: I was good at finding shit out with the card

1756
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 1: catalog at the library, you know. And then all of

1757
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:15,080
Speaker 1: a sudden, I was like, now any idiots can find

1758
01:45:15,120 --> 01:45:16,000
Speaker 1: out whatever they want.

1759
01:45:16,200 --> 01:45:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

1760
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 3: And you say I liked it better when you had

1761
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:20,720
Speaker 3: to work for that.

1762
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:25,479
Speaker 2: You're irrelevant now, So your skills are irrelevant your big gift.

1763
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:29,920
Speaker 2: So so if the cause of information went to zero,

1764
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:32,720
Speaker 2: and that's what's going to happen to electrons if we

1765
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 2: build an energy grid. The same thing happened with telecommunications.

1766
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:41,559
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety six, President Clinton passed the Telecommunications Act,

1767
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:44,559
Speaker 2: and he forced all the baby Bells to consolidate their

1768
01:45:44,640 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 2: grid system and create a marketplace with lowest cost provider

1769
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:53,160
Speaker 2: would prevail. In the marketplace, you couldn't exclude people anymore.

1770
01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:58,000
Speaker 2: And that created a telecom revolution, and all these little

1771
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:02,000
Speaker 2: devices that we now have, like self, are the offspring

1772
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:04,439
Speaker 2: of that revolution. But what happened to the cause of

1773
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 2: phone calls and went to zero? Yeah? I worked in

1774
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:13,080
Speaker 2: a university, you know, at law school, and.

1775
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 3: I've tried, I've tried to explain to my kids.

1776
01:46:15,240 --> 01:46:19,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing that would happen of that your parents

1777
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:21,960
Speaker 1: would present you with a phone bill.

1778
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:25,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you would need to go through circling.

1779
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: You would need to go through circling, you know, And

1780
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:31,400
Speaker 1: you're like, really, that was a seven.

1781
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:34,679
Speaker 2: Dollars when I called that guy. Oh, I remember making

1782
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:37,920
Speaker 2: a five minute call to England that was seventy four dollars.

1783
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:42,439
Speaker 2: At my university looks a law school, there was only

1784
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:44,880
Speaker 2: one professor in the law school that was allowed to

1785
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:47,640
Speaker 2: have a phone that made international calls. His name was

1786
01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 2: William Vese and he was the international law professor. Any

1787
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:54,479
Speaker 2: of the other professors who wanted to call internationally had

1788
01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 2: to go knock on his door and Tay, can I

1789
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:59,840
Speaker 2: use your phone? It was great, That's what it was like, right,

1790
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:02,760
Speaker 2: And now that call is free, and it's because we

1791
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:04,920
Speaker 2: built the marketplace, and that's what's going to happen to

1792
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 2: electronsity as soon as we do this. My solution is

1793
01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:15,240
Speaker 2: a bigger solution rather than hand picking you know, wind, solar, hydro, nuke.

1794
01:47:15,680 --> 01:47:17,720
Speaker 2: What we do is we create a market and let

1795
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:19,960
Speaker 2: the market pick it, and we we get rid of

1796
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:24,639
Speaker 2: the subsidies we enforced. We make sure you can't pollute

1797
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:27,880
Speaker 2: the environment because that's a subside, and then we take

1798
01:47:27,920 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 2: the lowest costs form of energy in each you know,

1799
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:35,880
Speaker 2: in each district that that and and that is going

1800
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 2: to you know, create an economic boom the way that

1801
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:40,639
Speaker 2: the Internet did, but we got to invest in that

1802
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:41,960
Speaker 2: in that marketplace.

1803
01:47:43,040 --> 01:47:50,360
Speaker 1: It's funny you're you're articulated concept to me that. I uh,

1804
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 1: I'm almost embarrassed that it hadn't occurred to me before.

1805
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:56,759
Speaker 1: The way you're putting it would be these this idea

1806
01:47:57,080 --> 01:48:02,080
Speaker 1: of looking at polluters as the subsidy, being like, oh, no,

1807
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:07,479
Speaker 1: we gave you that river and all of the fish

1808
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:07,720
Speaker 1: in it.

1809
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 3: You use that.

1810
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:14,200
Speaker 1: I used that up, yeah exactly, and putting a value

1811
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:15,839
Speaker 1: and being like, and since you used.

1812
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:18,240
Speaker 2: That up, yeah, here's the bill.

1813
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 1: Had it hadn't occurred to me, uh yeah, I know

1814
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:28,760
Speaker 1: you've mentioned hydro. I know you've worked on projects around.

1815
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:31,160
Speaker 3: Protecting rivers from hydro development. And damning.

1816
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:33,720
Speaker 1: You spend a bunch of time, you know, as you

1817
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:37,839
Speaker 1: laid out with your work on the Hudson River. Uh,

1818
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 1: let's jump over for a minute to the Pacific Northwest.

1819
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 3: Based on your expertise, there is Well, let me let

1820
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:52,200
Speaker 3: me put it a different way. If I came to

1821
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:52,960
Speaker 3: you and said, you have.

1822
01:48:53,080 --> 01:48:56,599
Speaker 1: All the power in the world, within all the power

1823
01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:00,360
Speaker 1: in the country, within practical consideration, is there any hope

1824
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:05,719
Speaker 1: for Pacific salmon in you know, south of Alaska?

1825
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:08,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you mean the Snake River runs sure.

1826
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just let's just talk about the Columbia. Solet's

1827
01:49:11,280 --> 01:49:15,400
Speaker 1: talk about the Columbia Snake salmon, right, like the Columbia Waterway. Yeah,

1828
01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean there's all the damming, Like yeah, well, I

1829
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:22,320
Speaker 1: mean there is, you know, but there is, but it's

1830
01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:25,920
Speaker 1: a conservation. It's become a conservation dependent resource. Yeah, Like

1831
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 1: we have salmon now because we spend a lot of

1832
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:29,480
Speaker 1: money to have salmon.

1833
01:49:29,439 --> 01:49:32,479
Speaker 2: Right, because we put them in elevators and lift them

1834
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 2: up at the top of the dam. So, you know,

1835
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm any big dam you know there there I've seen

1836
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:42,879
Speaker 2: a lot of headwaters dams actually work with minimal environmental damage.

1837
01:49:42,920 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 2: And you know, provide really good local sources of energy

1838
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:49,120
Speaker 2: the people if you put them, you know, these smaller

1839
01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:51,400
Speaker 2: dams that you put up in the headwater before there's

1840
01:49:51,439 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 2: any you know, complex ecosystems in that waterway, and it

1841
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 2: really uh and they're very very functional and you know,

1842
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:02,760
Speaker 2: I think really efficient the big dams. I you know,

1843
01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:07,120
Speaker 2: my inclination is to take dams down, but I'm most

1844
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:12,200
Speaker 2: mindful of competing interests, So I would I don't know

1845
01:50:12,360 --> 01:50:14,800
Speaker 2: enough about all of the Columbia River dams to see

1846
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:18,519
Speaker 2: which one should be removed, which ones you know can

1847
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:20,559
Speaker 2: and then what happens when you remove him, because now

1848
01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 2: they've got all this sentiment that's you know, forty or

1849
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 2: fifty feet high behind him, And what does that do

1850
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 2: to the river when you just when you blow the

1851
01:50:29,080 --> 01:50:30,080
Speaker 2: dam and release all.

1852
01:50:30,040 --> 01:50:31,599
Speaker 3: That there's a bit of a ripping off the band

1853
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:33,280
Speaker 3: aid effect on some of that stuff. Yeah.

1854
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't know. I'd have to look and see.

1855
01:50:37,439 --> 01:50:40,080
Speaker 2: My inclination would be to try to figure out ways

1856
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:44,439
Speaker 2: to take all those dams apart, you know, without causing

1857
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:49,680
Speaker 2: economic cataclysms to you know, to other stakeholders.

1858
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:53,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a can you remember who we have on

1859
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 1: the representative from Idaho talking about his If you're ever

1860
01:50:58,040 --> 01:50:59,639
Speaker 1: in the White House, you gonna want to look this guy.

1861
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:05,200
Speaker 3: Up, That guy Mike uh An Idaho representative. He had

1862
01:51:05,200 --> 01:51:08,639
Speaker 3: that very complicated, not complicated. I don't want to discredit it.

1863
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:13,320
Speaker 3: He had a proposal on the Columbia about damn removal.

1864
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 2: Oh did he want the damns removed? Yeah?

1865
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 1: But like you said, I mean, you have everything from

1866
01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, you have kind of the Western bread basket, right,

1867
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 1: so Mike's yeah, Mike's we had Mike Simpson on Tom

1868
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:34,200
Speaker 1: But but I mean you mentioned, you know, things is shipping. Yeah,

1869
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,800
Speaker 1: you have all that wheat production which is going out,

1870
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:39,639
Speaker 1: you know, so by you know, you have to move stuff,

1871
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:41,360
Speaker 1: barge traffic down to.

1872
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:44,280
Speaker 3: Convert to rail.

1873
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:48,400
Speaker 1: It's a yeah, you know, it takes three days to

1874
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 1: talk to that one.

1875
01:51:50,240 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 2: Well, you know what they say about Western water that

1876
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 2: you know, whiskeys for drinking and waters for fighting. And

1877
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 2: anytime you start talking about Western water, you're you know,

1878
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 2: people want to kill you because there's so much economic

1879
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:19,160
Speaker 2: equity by you know, built into perverse economic systems, systems

1880
01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:22,920
Speaker 2: that are encouraging people to do bad things with resources

1881
01:52:23,960 --> 01:52:25,920
Speaker 2: just because of the way the West was settled, you know,

1882
01:52:27,160 --> 01:52:29,920
Speaker 2: it was first in use, first, first in time, first

1883
01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:34,680
Speaker 2: and right and all these other rules that and then

1884
01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 2: use it or lose it. So you know, if you're

1885
01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:41,400
Speaker 2: if you're an agricultural interest, and you don't use your

1886
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:44,599
Speaker 2: entire water allocation, you use it, so it encourages you

1887
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:48,400
Speaker 2: to use the most wasteful water, wasteful you know, grow

1888
01:52:48,439 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 2: cotton and alfalfa in the desert because so you you know,

1889
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:55,880
Speaker 2: I mean if you if you had to design it

1890
01:52:55,920 --> 01:53:00,920
Speaker 2: from the start, you would not design those rules. And

1891
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:04,599
Speaker 2: now you know, now you've got one hundred and fifty

1892
01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:09,400
Speaker 2: years of development that's based upon these perverse incentives, and

1893
01:53:09,439 --> 01:53:14,120
Speaker 2: you have entire municipalities and you know, like Scottsdale and

1894
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:18,480
Speaker 2: Phoenix and that are all essentially unsustainable.

1895
01:53:29,479 --> 01:53:31,440
Speaker 3: The thing I've tried to follow.

1896
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:35,160
Speaker 1: And I in the amount of time I have to

1897
01:53:35,280 --> 01:53:37,240
Speaker 1: devote to reading to it, I can't come to an

1898
01:53:37,280 --> 01:53:38,559
Speaker 1: understanding of it is.

1899
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:44,759
Speaker 3: Where are you on getting on all.

1900
01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:47,280
Speaker 1: The state ballots? And what are the hurdles you have

1901
01:53:47,360 --> 01:53:50,040
Speaker 1: to get on state ballots? I keep, you know, I

1902
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 1: read like small lists of states, but then signature gathering efforts.

1903
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:56,799
Speaker 1: Is there a pathway to is there a path.

1904
01:53:58,280 --> 01:53:58,839
Speaker 3: Not possible?

1905
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:00,720
Speaker 2: Well, it's you know, they just designed it to be.

1906
01:54:00,720 --> 01:54:03,880
Speaker 3: Insurmountable for you for a third party.

1907
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:07,200
Speaker 2: A third party, the other guys don't have to do it, right,

1908
01:54:07,479 --> 01:54:09,559
Speaker 2: they don't have to do it. They're already on the

1909
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:12,840
Speaker 2: Democrat and Republican already have automatic ballot line. So if

1910
01:54:12,880 --> 01:54:15,680
Speaker 2: you get on their ballots, you're you're in. But I

1911
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:17,400
Speaker 2: have to do it, and then I also have to

1912
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:19,680
Speaker 2: pay for my own security because they won't let me

1913
01:54:19,720 --> 01:54:22,920
Speaker 2: have a secret service, and that's a big cost.

1914
01:54:23,240 --> 01:54:25,759
Speaker 3: And so I don't know this.

1915
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:29,080
Speaker 1: This is probably maybe of only marginal interest to our listeners.

1916
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 1: So maybe there's a quick way of doing it.

1917
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:31,120
Speaker 3: What's what the.

1918
01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:34,760
Speaker 1: Security think like, Well, I'm the first the third party

1919
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:36,080
Speaker 1: is ineligible for security.

1920
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:40,520
Speaker 2: No, no, I would be eligible. I'm the first candidate.

1921
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:44,480
Speaker 2: And you know, before my dad was killed, there was

1922
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 2: no secret service until you got a party nomination. Then

1923
01:54:49,560 --> 01:54:54,000
Speaker 2: at that that year they started giving it to everybody.

1924
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:56,280
Speaker 2: So they gave it. George Wallace was running that year

1925
01:54:56,320 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 2: as an independent, you know, George McGovern, I mean, Hubert Humphrey,

1926
01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:07,880
Speaker 2: Jean McCarthy all got it immediately. As soon as my

1927
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:11,280
Speaker 2: father was shot and Congress passed the law is saying

1928
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:14,440
Speaker 2: everybody is entitled to it who gets certain poll numbers

1929
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:19,600
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty days outside of the election from

1930
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:21,880
Speaker 2: the election. In other words, one hundred and twenty days.

1931
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 2: We're now we're now five months in eighteen days, so

1932
01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty days is what that's four months? Right?

1933
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 1: No?

1934
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, four months. Oh I'm five months and eighteen

1935
01:55:34,200 --> 01:55:36,520
Speaker 2: days out. So in a month in eighteen days, I

1936
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:41,600
Speaker 2: should bet a title. But it's discretionary, so the president

1937
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:44,760
Speaker 2: can give it to anybody, and they've never refused it

1938
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 2: to anybody, and they've given it to thirty three candidates

1939
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:51,800
Speaker 2: prior to the one hundred and twenty days. And I've

1940
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:54,840
Speaker 2: had a lot of you know, sort of dangerous things

1941
01:55:54,920 --> 01:55:58,600
Speaker 2: happened during my campaign. I've had, you know, I've had

1942
01:55:58,640 --> 01:56:02,640
Speaker 2: four housebreak ins. One occasion, you know, the intruder got

1943
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 2: to my second floor with my family all home. And

1944
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 2: on another occasion, a guy showed up at my at

1945
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:17,320
Speaker 2: one of my rallies in Los Angeles, and he had

1946
01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:21,480
Speaker 2: he was you know, he was covered with concealed weapons.

1947
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:24,520
Speaker 2: He had two shoulder holsters with loaded magazines. He had

1948
01:56:24,560 --> 01:56:31,000
Speaker 2: a backpack filled with guns, including a laser sighted pistol

1949
01:56:31,080 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 2: that was fully loaded, a couple dozen extra ammunition clips,

1950
01:56:35,920 --> 01:56:37,840
Speaker 2: and a lot of other weapons, knives and all this

1951
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 2: other stuff he had.

1952
01:56:40,360 --> 01:56:42,160
Speaker 1: He was like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the end of that

1953
01:56:42,200 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 1: movie Commando, and he's got the stuffel bags exactly.

1954
01:56:45,080 --> 01:56:50,440
Speaker 2: That's how he's outfitted. And he had a he had

1955
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 2: a federal ID, so he had a federal US Marshall badge,

1956
01:56:54,840 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 2: he had federal idea.

1957
01:56:55,960 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 3: On his what was his? What was his?

1958
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:05,360
Speaker 2: Before he left home that day, he made a TikTok

1959
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,880
Speaker 2: tape saying, I'm going out on a mission now. If

1960
01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 2: I don't come back from this, report to your commander

1961
01:57:11,800 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 2: in Chief, Donald J. Trump, you know. And he was

1962
01:57:14,720 --> 01:57:19,360
Speaker 2: kind of like a he looked like a motorcycle bandit

1963
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:22,320
Speaker 2: kind of it. And that's the only TikTok he's ever made.

1964
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 2: And then, you know, luckily one of my security to

1965
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:31,440
Speaker 2: look at took a close look at his his US

1966
01:57:31,440 --> 01:57:34,400
Speaker 2: Marshall badge and just said, something looks wrong with it.

1967
01:57:34,440 --> 01:57:37,080
Speaker 2: It looks too shiny. He was demanding to see me

1968
01:57:37,120 --> 01:57:42,960
Speaker 2: in the the the green room. And so my guys thought,

1969
01:57:44,280 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 2: is a US Marshall badge looked too shiny, and they

1970
01:57:48,160 --> 01:57:50,720
Speaker 2: detained him, and then they found all these other weapons

1971
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:52,640
Speaker 2: on him, and they called the police. The police came

1972
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:57,360
Speaker 2: in and arrested him and released him, you know, the

1973
01:57:57,360 --> 01:58:00,240
Speaker 2: next day. So despite the fact he had all all

1974
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:03,480
Speaker 2: this fake idea on them. And so there's been a

1975
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:06,240
Speaker 2: number of things like that that have happened, and you know,

1976
01:58:06,320 --> 01:58:10,440
Speaker 2: President Biden has made a decision not to give me

1977
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:14,640
Speaker 2: Secret Service protection. And I'm pretty sure the reason, although

1978
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:16,920
Speaker 2: I don't like to look into other people's minds, is

1979
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:20,360
Speaker 2: that they know this is, you know, my security team

1980
01:58:20,480 --> 01:58:24,760
Speaker 2: is causing our campaign a million dollars a month, and

1981
01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:29,280
Speaker 2: they'd rather be spending that on security than on you know,

1982
01:58:29,480 --> 01:58:35,080
Speaker 2: advertising on ballot access. The answer to your original question,

1983
01:58:35,200 --> 01:58:39,920
Speaker 2: they've tried to make it insurmountable. We have an amazing team,

1984
01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:43,120
Speaker 2: and we have now one hundred thousand volunteers. We have

1985
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 2: more volunteers out there than any other campaign. And people

1986
01:58:46,600 --> 01:58:51,200
Speaker 2: are very, very very happy about signing my signatures. In fact,

1987
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:57,040
Speaker 2: the professional ballot the professional signature gatherers, and there's a

1988
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:01,360
Speaker 2: whole industry that that's all they do. They charged typically

1989
01:59:01,360 --> 01:59:05,080
Speaker 2: about ten bucks to fifteen bucks a signature, and it's

1990
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 2: a big industry, and they're all saying that this is

1991
01:59:07,800 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 2: the easiest campaign that they've ever done for any purpose,

1992
01:59:11,840 --> 01:59:16,760
Speaker 2: commercial campaigns, referendums, that people are you know that there's

1993
01:59:16,800 --> 01:59:19,440
Speaker 2: an enthusiasm for signing to give me on the ballot.

1994
01:59:19,480 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 2: Whether people want to vote for me or not, I

1995
01:59:21,080 --> 01:59:23,480
Speaker 2: don't know, but they people want to see me on

1996
01:59:23,520 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 2: the ballot. So we've done the two hardest states. We've

1997
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:32,200
Speaker 2: done California, the three hardest we've done Texas, which is

1998
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:34,760
Speaker 2: the hardest of all. We only have forty six states

1999
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:36,960
Speaker 2: to get one hundred and I think one hundred and

2000
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:41,240
Speaker 2: thirteen thousand signatures in forty six days, and we got

2001
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:42,560
Speaker 2: a quarter million.

2002
01:59:44,480 --> 01:59:47,240
Speaker 3: And then it's helpful to overshoot it so that they have.

2003
01:59:47,200 --> 01:59:51,520
Speaker 2: To because the DNZ, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party

2004
01:59:51,520 --> 01:59:54,000
Speaker 2: are going to come in and go through every signature

2005
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:57,160
Speaker 2: and try to find a problem with it. And so

2006
01:59:57,800 --> 01:59:59,720
Speaker 2: we need to get you know, at least a sixty

2007
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:01,520
Speaker 2: percent and cushion. We try to get two and a

2008
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:08,400
Speaker 2: half times. We're going to get on every ballot. All right, Oh.

2009
02:00:10,720 --> 02:00:13,280
Speaker 3: Uh, if.

2010
02:00:15,320 --> 02:00:17,880
Speaker 1: Trump or Biden came on the show, what would be

2011
02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:20,040
Speaker 1: the number one question you think I should ask them.

2012
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:24,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm curious about the lockdowns, about how they

2013
02:00:24,640 --> 02:00:28,280
Speaker 2: feel about that right now, you know, shutting down every

2014
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:31,640
Speaker 2: business in this country for a year with no due process,

2015
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:36,560
Speaker 2: no scientific citation, no you know, no public hearings, no

2016
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 2: environmental impact statement, and you know how they're going to

2017
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,520
Speaker 2: make sure that never happens again. They you know, they

2018
02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:47,400
Speaker 2: destroyed the middle class in our country. They shifted four

2019
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 2: trillion dollars upward to this new oligarchy of billionaires. They

2020
02:00:52,120 --> 02:00:55,680
Speaker 2: created a billionaire a day in five hundred days, you know,

2021
02:00:55,880 --> 02:01:00,760
Speaker 2: and they just devastated a lot of these all businesses

2022
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:03,280
Speaker 2: that they with the hard and soul of our country,

2023
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:07,880
Speaker 2: you know, are gone and they're never coming back. Forty

2024
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:11,839
Speaker 2: percent of black owned businesses, you know, will never reopen.

2025
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 2: Many of them had three generations of equity in them.

2026
02:01:17,360 --> 02:01:22,440
Speaker 2: And you know, we're turning now from a ownership society

2027
02:01:22,560 --> 02:01:27,440
Speaker 2: into a into a into a rental society. And you know,

2028
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:30,640
Speaker 2: when we do that, we're going from being citizens to

2029
02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:34,120
Speaker 2: being subjects. People don't have homes if they don't have equity,

2030
02:01:34,240 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 2: access equity where they can pursue their entrepreneurial impulses. You know,

2031
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:42,040
Speaker 2: our country is then on a feudal model. It's not

2032
02:01:42,040 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 2: a colonial model, not you know, not American democracy anymore.

2033
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:49,880
Speaker 2: And you know, I would really I would love to

2034
02:01:50,240 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 2: if I was on a debating stage with them, you know,

2035
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 2: I would drill down on that issue. And you know,

2036
02:01:56,520 --> 02:02:00,000
Speaker 2: why in the world would they close the business press?

2037
02:02:00,160 --> 02:02:02,520
Speaker 2: And Trump knew that it was wrong, he said it,

2038
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:04,960
Speaker 2: he said, I'll never do that, and then you know,

2039
02:02:05,000 --> 02:02:07,680
Speaker 2: he went ahead and did it for a year, and

2040
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:10,160
Speaker 2: they did it for five hundred days, the two of them,

2041
02:02:10,520 --> 02:02:15,720
Speaker 2: and it was just agony for small business people. So

2042
02:02:16,280 --> 02:02:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, that's I guess. I mean, there's a million

2043
02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:24,040
Speaker 2: other things that you know, I think the issue with

2044
02:02:24,120 --> 02:02:28,680
Speaker 2: President Trump Prisent Biden is that they're very different. People

2045
02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:35,200
Speaker 2: have different dispositions, they different personalities, they have different ideologies,

2046
02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:37,760
Speaker 2: they're rhetoric. The whole way they interact with the public,

2047
02:02:37,800 --> 02:02:40,320
Speaker 2: with the world is you know, it couldn't be more different.

2048
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:45,520
Speaker 2: But the actual issues that they that they're disputing each

2049
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:51,840
Speaker 2: other on, it's a really narrow Overton window. It's like guns, abortion, order, security,

2050
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:56,080
Speaker 2: trans rights, et cetera. It's all you know, they're all

2051
02:02:56,120 --> 02:03:00,840
Speaker 2: important issues, but they're kind of marginal with accepted to

2052
02:03:00,880 --> 02:03:04,240
Speaker 2: the border, which I think is really a big, big issue.

2053
02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:08,960
Speaker 2: But the existential issues, the issues that are critical to

2054
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:12,520
Speaker 2: our survival is a nation. They never talk about that.

2055
02:03:12,680 --> 02:03:14,640
Speaker 2: You know, we have a thirty four trillion dollar debt

2056
02:03:14,720 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 2: now and we're spending more on our national We spend

2057
02:03:20,360 --> 02:03:23,520
Speaker 2: more servicing that debt every year than our defense budget.

2058
02:03:24,920 --> 02:03:27,600
Speaker 2: Within five years, fifty cents that have every dollar that's

2059
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:30,040
Speaker 2: collected in taxes, we'll go to the servicing the debt

2060
02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:34,240
Speaker 2: within ten years one hundred percent is existential and nobody

2061
02:03:34,720 --> 02:03:38,240
Speaker 2: you'll never hear President find or President Trump talk about

2062
02:03:38,360 --> 02:03:40,280
Speaker 2: what they're going to do. Why is that because they

2063
02:03:40,360 --> 02:03:44,400
Speaker 2: ran up the debt in each of them four years

2064
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:48,000
Speaker 2: off as half of that debt belongs to them a president.

2065
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:51,720
Speaker 1: But I mean, that problem too has become talking about

2066
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:54,080
Speaker 1: solving that problem is almost like talking about trying to

2067
02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:55,280
Speaker 1: stop the sun from rising.

2068
02:03:55,720 --> 02:03:58,960
Speaker 2: I don't think that's true, Really, I don't think that's true.

2069
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:02,360
Speaker 2: I think they're you know, look, we've got to wind

2070
02:04:02,360 --> 02:04:05,200
Speaker 2: down the military. We've got to cut the military budget

2071
02:04:05,360 --> 02:04:08,960
Speaker 2: in half. We can't be the policeman of the world anymore.

2072
02:04:09,160 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 2: We're not, you know, doing global hegemony. We need to

2073
02:04:12,320 --> 02:04:16,200
Speaker 2: harmor ourselves the teeth at home. We need to protect

2074
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:19,200
Speaker 2: the sea lanes and you know, the neutral areas and

2075
02:04:19,320 --> 02:04:21,960
Speaker 2: have it. And we need to be able to fight

2076
02:04:22,320 --> 02:04:25,600
Speaker 2: the wars the future. We're right now spending nine and

2077
02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:29,680
Speaker 2: a half nine you know, half a trillion and a

2078
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:33,080
Speaker 2: half billion, nine hundred and fifty billion dollars a year

2079
02:04:33,960 --> 02:04:37,440
Speaker 2: preparing for wars that will never be fought again. And

2080
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 2: you know the whole and it's wrong, and we need

2081
02:04:44,160 --> 02:04:46,800
Speaker 2: it's existential. If we don't solve the debt. We have

2082
02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:49,160
Speaker 2: the biggest area that we can have saving this is

2083
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 2: the chronic disease epidemic that's costing US four point three

2084
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,600
Speaker 2: trillion dollars. We can end that very very quickly, four

2085
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:59,480
Speaker 2: point three trillion dollars, five times our military. But when

2086
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:03,040
Speaker 2: my uncle the president, six percent of Americans had chronic disease.

2087
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:06,600
Speaker 2: Today is sixty percent to why is that? Why did

2088
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:10,320
Speaker 2: autism go from one in ten thousand in my generation

2089
02:05:10,520 --> 02:05:13,920
Speaker 2: today one in every ten thousand seventy year old man

2090
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 2: has autism and my kids generation one in every twenty

2091
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:21,720
Speaker 2: two boys. Why did that happen? And why did obese

2092
02:05:21,720 --> 02:05:25,280
Speaker 2: that he go from thirteen percent when my uncle was president,

2093
02:05:25,320 --> 02:05:27,959
Speaker 2: of fifty percent of our kids today? Why is diabetes?

2094
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:32,160
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, a typical pediatrician saw one

2095
02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:36,080
Speaker 2: case of diabetes in a fifty year career. Today, one

2096
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:38,200
Speaker 2: out of every three kids who walks through his office

2097
02:05:38,240 --> 02:05:42,120
Speaker 2: door is pre diabetic or diabetic. Why is that happening?

2098
02:05:43,240 --> 02:05:46,600
Speaker 2: Nobody's answering those questions. Why did food allergies suddenly appear?

2099
02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:50,440
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty nine? I have eleven brothers and sisters.

2100
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:55,280
Speaker 2: I had seventy first cousins. Nobody, nobody I knew had

2101
02:05:55,320 --> 02:05:57,880
Speaker 2: a peanut allergy? Why do five my seven kids have

2102
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:01,640
Speaker 2: food allergies? Something happen and we know the year it

2103
02:06:01,720 --> 02:06:06,520
Speaker 2: happened because EBA answered that question nineteen eighty nine. Something

2104
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:10,400
Speaker 2: happened that year that ruined our health. And we have

2105
02:06:10,480 --> 02:06:14,320
Speaker 2: the highest chronic disease burden in the world today. Nobody

2106
02:06:14,360 --> 02:06:18,720
Speaker 2: else has this happening like us. We had sixteen percent

2107
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:22,480
Speaker 2: of the COVID deaths in our country, the highest body

2108
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:25,680
Speaker 2: count on earth. We only have four point two percent

2109
02:06:25,680 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 2: of the world's population. What were we doing? Whatever we

2110
02:06:30,200 --> 02:06:35,400
Speaker 2: did was wrong? And CDC says, well, it's just because

2111
02:06:35,400 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 2: Americans are so sick. Well, that's you know, why aren't

2112
02:06:39,760 --> 02:06:43,760
Speaker 2: they telling us why the CDC's had The average American

2113
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,600
Speaker 2: who died from COVID had three point eight chronic diseases.

2114
02:06:46,720 --> 02:06:49,880
Speaker 2: They had obesity, they had diabetes, they had asthma, and

2115
02:06:49,960 --> 02:06:53,680
Speaker 2: one other thing. Why do we have then nobody else

2116
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:57,040
Speaker 2: in the world has that, And you know, we know

2117
02:06:57,160 --> 02:07:00,480
Speaker 2: it was something that happened in nineteen eighty nine or

2118
02:07:00,520 --> 02:07:04,240
Speaker 2: there a ballots. And there's a very famous toxicologist in

2119
02:07:04,280 --> 02:07:06,800
Speaker 2: New York who I've used as an expert in many

2120
02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:10,720
Speaker 2: of my cases. His name's Phil Landrigan. He's looked at

2121
02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:14,760
Speaker 2: this issue and he said, it's there's only about thirteen

2122
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:16,840
Speaker 2: things it could be. It has to be an environmental

2123
02:07:16,880 --> 02:07:22,160
Speaker 2: toxin because genes don't cause epidemics. They can provide a vulnerability,

2124
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:26,200
Speaker 2: but you need an environmental exposure. And he said, here's

2125
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:30,200
Speaker 2: what it could be. It could be life estate from roundup,

2126
02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:33,920
Speaker 2: which follows that timeline near nicotoid pessis. It's follow that

2127
02:07:34,000 --> 02:07:38,040
Speaker 2: timeline aches in, which is another pestis on all of

2128
02:07:38,080 --> 02:07:41,520
Speaker 2: our water, seventy percent of our water. Now, it follows

2129
02:07:41,520 --> 02:07:45,600
Speaker 2: that timeline pfoas and PFAS is a class of what

2130
02:07:45,640 --> 02:07:48,400
Speaker 2: they call forever chemicals. I litigated on them. They made

2131
02:07:48,400 --> 02:07:52,280
Speaker 2: a movie out of my case called Dark Waters or

2132
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:56,600
Speaker 2: in Mark Ruffalo. If those are those chemicals are in

2133
02:07:56,640 --> 02:07:59,480
Speaker 2: all of our furniture. They're in our child pajamas, you know.

2134
02:07:59,640 --> 02:08:06,000
Speaker 2: And get around that timeline high fruitose corns here, okay,

2135
02:08:06,240 --> 02:08:10,080
Speaker 2: follows that and nobody else allowed.

2136
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:13,040
Speaker 3: It became the leading ingredient for everything, yeah.

2137
02:08:12,840 --> 02:08:17,320
Speaker 2: For everything, right, cell phone radiation.

2138
02:08:18,000 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 3: So.

2139
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:22,720
Speaker 2: And then the vaccine schedule, of course, which went from

2140
02:08:22,760 --> 02:08:25,600
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine. It was a big change here,

2141
02:08:25,640 --> 02:08:28,040
Speaker 2: but we went from the three vaccines I got as

2142
02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:31,880
Speaker 2: a kid that the seventy two vaccines my kids got.

2143
02:08:32,560 --> 02:08:36,200
Speaker 2: And if you look at the manufacturers insorts inserts for

2144
02:08:36,240 --> 02:08:40,160
Speaker 2: those products, all of those disease are listed. The the

2145
02:08:40,200 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 2: neurological disease add ADHD, speech delay, language LA tixt or

2146
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 2: at syndrome, narcolepsy, ASD, autism, the autoimmune disease like rheumatoid

2147
02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:54,840
Speaker 2: Arthur wright Is, juvenile diabetes loop is Groan's disease. All

2148
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:59,960
Speaker 2: these exotic autoimmune disease suddenly appeared. And then the allergic

2149
02:09:00,200 --> 02:09:03,600
Speaker 2: these punt allergies, food allergies, EXMA. I never knew anybody

2150
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:08,800
Speaker 2: what ezma. Every classroom has kids with EXEA now asthma

2151
02:09:09,400 --> 02:09:13,760
Speaker 2: and uh anaphylaxis and then obesity. All of those are

2152
02:09:13,800 --> 02:09:17,200
Speaker 2: listed as side effects, so you have to look at those.

2153
02:09:17,320 --> 02:09:20,880
Speaker 2: Part of it. Probably what's happening is all of those exposures.

2154
02:09:20,920 --> 02:09:23,600
Speaker 2: Our kids are swimming around in the toxics of today

2155
02:09:23,640 --> 02:09:28,839
Speaker 2: and we're there. Their immune systems are constantly being challenged

2156
02:09:28,880 --> 02:09:31,920
Speaker 2: and rechallenged because a lot of these toxics operate along

2157
02:09:31,960 --> 02:09:36,880
Speaker 2: those same biological pathways. Oh and it's the kids probably

2158
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:43,280
Speaker 2: who have poor mitochondrial function to start off with. The mitochondrials,

2159
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:46,440
Speaker 2: the energy systems are asel and if you if you

2160
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:51,600
Speaker 2: if you target them enough, it paralyzed them and you

2161
02:09:51,640 --> 02:09:53,920
Speaker 2: go into a cascading effect where you end up with

2162
02:09:53,960 --> 02:09:58,400
Speaker 2: brain damage or with autoimmune disease or whatever. So we're

2163
02:09:58,440 --> 02:10:01,840
Speaker 2: probably challenging and reaching challenge and the kids who just

2164
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:04,360
Speaker 2: have a weaker system who were born with you know,

2165
02:10:04,400 --> 02:10:10,080
Speaker 2: mitochondrial dysfunctions which would never show in typically human but

2166
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:13,440
Speaker 2: if you challenge them enough, they're assault their immune sism

2167
02:10:13,560 --> 02:10:19,320
Speaker 2: enough that's going to happen. And so you know, I

2168
02:10:19,400 --> 02:10:22,880
Speaker 2: know how to fix it, and I'm going to fix

2169
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:26,040
Speaker 2: it very very quickly. And you know, you fix it

2170
02:10:26,080 --> 02:10:29,080
Speaker 2: by doing real science, and i AGE by doing good science.

2171
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:31,880
Speaker 2: And i AGE when I was a kid, was the

2172
02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:35,919
Speaker 2: premiere scientific agency in the world. It was gold standard.

2173
02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:38,200
Speaker 2: There's no other country in the world that has anything

2174
02:10:38,320 --> 02:10:40,520
Speaker 2: like it. And they were doing, you know, groundbreaking on

2175
02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:44,160
Speaker 2: every issue. And in nineteen eighty we passed a law

2176
02:10:44,240 --> 02:10:49,200
Speaker 2: that said called the Blood Bidole Act, that allowed NIAGE

2177
02:10:49,320 --> 02:10:54,160
Speaker 2: scientists to collect royalties on any product that they regulated.

2178
02:10:55,600 --> 02:10:58,720
Speaker 2: If you can imagine that. So, for example, and i

2179
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:03,560
Speaker 2: AGE itself, the more dear in a vaccine was created

2180
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:05,720
Speaker 2: by NIH and they own half of it. So they're

2181
02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:08,600
Speaker 2: making billions of dollars on sales of a product that

2182
02:11:08,640 --> 02:11:12,960
Speaker 2: they're promoting, that they're mandating. They're telling you you can't

2183
02:11:12,960 --> 02:11:14,960
Speaker 2: go to work unless you take this product, and they're

2184
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,840
Speaker 2: not telling you they're making billions of dollars on it.

2185
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:22,800
Speaker 2: The sixth top scientists at an ihe are making one

2186
02:11:22,840 --> 02:11:26,320
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year personally on that product.

2187
02:11:26,840 --> 02:11:29,839
Speaker 2: So they're paying for their mortgages, their boats, their schools,

2188
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:34,960
Speaker 2: that their kids' education, their alimonies, and you know, these

2189
02:11:34,960 --> 02:11:37,080
Speaker 2: are the guys who are supposed to be funding problems

2190
02:11:37,080 --> 02:11:41,120
Speaker 2: in those products and protecting us from them. Instead they're

2191
02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:44,280
Speaker 2: you know, they're they're getting rich on them. And when

2192
02:11:44,560 --> 02:11:47,920
Speaker 2: you have those kinds of conflicts of interest, therese perverse incentives.

2193
02:11:49,080 --> 02:11:52,520
Speaker 2: They it makes people turn a blind eye to some

2194
02:11:52,560 --> 02:11:56,400
Speaker 2: of the problems. So I'm going to go into NIH

2195
02:11:56,480 --> 02:11:58,560
Speaker 2: my first week in office. I'm going to get all

2196
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:01,320
Speaker 2: of that and what happened. And they after they passed

2197
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 2: that act, NIH went from doing this cutting edge science,

2198
02:12:06,480 --> 02:12:09,160
Speaker 2: tell us why you know how to keep ourselves well?

2199
02:12:10,280 --> 02:12:13,160
Speaker 2: And they became an incubator for new pharmaceutical products. I

2200
02:12:13,200 --> 02:12:16,160
Speaker 2: think it was in twenty twenty sixteen. There was two

2201
02:12:16,200 --> 02:12:19,800
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty new drugs or something like that approved

2202
02:12:19,800 --> 02:12:23,080
Speaker 2: by FDA, and one hundred percent of them came We're

2203
02:12:23,160 --> 02:12:26,760
Speaker 2: incubated through NIH. So NIAH is now just a drug

2204
02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:31,120
Speaker 2: development company. And what I'm going to do is go

2205
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:34,720
Speaker 2: over there and say we're going to give drug development

2206
02:12:34,760 --> 02:12:37,280
Speaker 2: a break for if they have they have a budget

2207
02:12:37,280 --> 02:12:39,839
Speaker 2: of forty two billion dollars, they distribute that to fifty

2208
02:12:39,840 --> 02:12:45,200
Speaker 2: six thousand scientists at universities who also collect royalties on

2209
02:12:45,320 --> 02:12:48,080
Speaker 2: new drugs. And I'm going to say, from now on,

2210
02:12:48,200 --> 02:12:50,320
Speaker 2: we're not going to do anything until we figure out

2211
02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:54,880
Speaker 2: why we have the sickest kids on earth, and what

2212
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:57,920
Speaker 2: are the products that are causing that, And then you know,

2213
02:12:57,960 --> 02:13:01,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to generate enough science on those to make

2214
02:13:01,360 --> 02:13:03,560
Speaker 2: sure that we can put an end to those exposures.

2215
02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:08,280
Speaker 2: Now you're gonna say to yourself, see that even if

2216
02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 2: you figured out that high fruitose corn syrup was the culprit,

2217
02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 2: and you still could never get rid of it because

2218
02:13:16,800 --> 02:13:22,560
Speaker 2: the forces behind it are so powerful. It's Monsanto, it's Cargill,

2219
02:13:24,080 --> 02:13:26,800
Speaker 2: a million farmers who are tied up in its production,

2220
02:13:27,000 --> 02:13:31,200
Speaker 2: and you know, entire industries and all that's true. But

2221
02:13:31,680 --> 02:13:34,000
Speaker 2: the way that you do it is you produce enough

2222
02:13:34,120 --> 02:13:40,040
Speaker 2: science enough in different kinds of science, epidemiological studies, clinical studies,

2223
02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:47,360
Speaker 2: observational animal studies and and you know, and patriotage studies,

2224
02:13:48,160 --> 02:13:50,760
Speaker 2: all of those. Once you get enough science, then the

2225
02:13:50,840 --> 02:13:53,240
Speaker 2: lawyers come in and they do the work for you,

2226
02:13:53,320 --> 02:13:57,040
Speaker 2: because then they come in if you prove high fruitose

2227
02:13:57,080 --> 02:14:03,000
Speaker 2: corn syrup is behind the childhood diabetes epidemic, and the

2228
02:14:03,080 --> 02:14:06,880
Speaker 2: lawyers were round up ten thousand kids with childhood diabetes

2229
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:09,320
Speaker 2: to the company and that's the end of the show.

2230
02:14:09,400 --> 02:14:13,160
Speaker 2: That's what I did with Monsanto. Everybody said you'll never

2231
02:14:13,520 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 2: you'll never get rid of Claife essay. But we had

2232
02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 2: forty thousand clients, all of them a home gardeners, almost

2233
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:26,320
Speaker 2: all home gardeners, who had gotten non Hodgkinson foma from

2234
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:27,360
Speaker 2: using roundup.

2235
02:14:28,360 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 1: And I remember not to I remember in my adult life,

2236
02:14:33,040 --> 02:14:38,160
Speaker 1: individuals from ARS Agricultural Research Services.

2237
02:14:38,280 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the division of the USDA.

2238
02:14:40,560 --> 02:14:43,520
Speaker 1: Individuals from there telling me that roundup had the toxicity

2239
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 1: of coffee.

2240
02:14:44,360 --> 02:14:46,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's what in my adult life.

2241
02:14:47,040 --> 02:14:51,400
Speaker 2: Well, that's what Monsanto was telling the public. And we

2242
02:14:51,520 --> 02:14:55,400
Speaker 2: got forty thousand people who said I got cancer, you know,

2243
02:14:55,480 --> 02:14:59,200
Speaker 2: Don Johnson's of this particular kind of cancer from spring roundup.

2244
02:15:00,440 --> 02:15:03,600
Speaker 2: We soon round up. And the way that multi district

2245
02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:06,760
Speaker 2: litigation works is you get forty thousand kids, You try

2246
02:15:06,800 --> 02:15:10,440
Speaker 2: each one individually, one after the other, back to back,

2247
02:15:11,240 --> 02:15:14,160
Speaker 2: until somebody says uncle and comes to the negotiating table.

2248
02:15:15,160 --> 02:15:17,400
Speaker 2: The first case, we won two hundred and eighty nine

2249
02:15:17,400 --> 02:15:21,120
Speaker 2: million from Monsanto. The second case we won eighty nine million.

2250
02:15:21,400 --> 02:15:24,240
Speaker 2: The third case, we asked the jury for a billion

2251
02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:27,080
Speaker 2: and they came back with two point two billion. At

2252
02:15:27,080 --> 02:15:29,920
Speaker 2: that point, Monsanto came to negotiating tables and we want

2253
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:33,400
Speaker 2: to end this. They settled the case for thirteen billion

2254
02:15:33,480 --> 02:15:37,120
Speaker 2: dollars for all of the cases, and they agreed to

2255
02:15:37,160 --> 02:15:41,960
Speaker 2: take life and say out of home gardening products. So

2256
02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:44,600
Speaker 2: you can stop them. You just need the right science

2257
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:47,000
Speaker 2: because once you get the right science, the courts will

2258
02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:49,600
Speaker 2: allow them to be you know, you go to front

2259
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 2: of a jury. And that's what I'm going to do

2260
02:15:51,920 --> 02:15:55,000
Speaker 2: with all of these different exposures. There's only thirteen of them.

2261
02:15:55,160 --> 02:15:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, plans are coming on today. I'm getting the I'm

2262
02:15:58,840 --> 02:16:02,600
Speaker 1: getting the times up symbol. I appreciate the conversation.

2263
02:16:02,720 --> 02:16:04,360
Speaker 2: Man, it was really fun talking to you.

2264
02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:05,720
Speaker 3: I appreciate you coming on.

2265
02:16:06,040 --> 02:16:08,000
Speaker 2: I hope maybe if you can, if you get a

2266
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:10,920
Speaker 2: chance in the autumn, when the falcony season's up, and

2267
02:16:11,000 --> 02:16:12,320
Speaker 2: so maybe you'll come all.

2268
02:16:12,600 --> 02:16:15,520
Speaker 3: So I would yeah, I would like to do that.

2269
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:16,520
Speaker 3: It'll be fun.

2270
02:16:17,200 --> 02:16:19,800
Speaker 1: Do you have one last question? Do you ever fix

2271
02:16:19,920 --> 02:16:21,840
Speaker 1: up the if you get do you ever like cook

2272
02:16:21,920 --> 02:16:22,640
Speaker 1: rabbits and stuff?

2273
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:23,040
Speaker 3: Do you get it?

2274
02:16:23,080 --> 02:16:26,000
Speaker 2: You always give it to my wife Cheryl.

2275
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:28,240
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to start the show by

2276
02:16:28,280 --> 02:16:30,200
Speaker 1: telling you how much I'm in love with your wife,

2277
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:31,160
Speaker 1: but I don't want.

2278
02:16:31,040 --> 02:16:36,679
Speaker 2: To get off now. She's very lovable.

2279
02:16:36,959 --> 02:16:39,440
Speaker 1: That that that that uh, you know, I know she's

2280
02:16:39,480 --> 02:16:40,280
Speaker 1: done many things.

2281
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what if.

2282
02:16:42,320 --> 02:16:46,440
Speaker 1: I was going to measure like like, uh, the highest

2283
02:16:47,280 --> 02:16:53,280
Speaker 1: laughs per minute thing in my life is is Curber

2284
02:16:54,480 --> 02:16:55,480
Speaker 1: just like that?

2285
02:16:55,800 --> 02:16:56,959
Speaker 3: And she plays such a.

2286
02:16:59,440 --> 02:17:04,280
Speaker 1: She does such a quiet show stealing job on that show.

2287
02:17:04,920 --> 02:17:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, she plays common sense and it makes everything on time.

2288
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:13,920
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's it's so quietly her. It's so

2289
02:17:14,120 --> 02:17:16,160
Speaker 1: quietly brilliant how she plays that role.

2290
02:17:16,600 --> 02:17:19,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Larry. I lived with Larry for two

2291
02:17:20,959 --> 02:17:23,760
Speaker 2: years and during the summertimes and then we have vaccasional together.

2292
02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 2: And that's how I met Cheryl when he was still

2293
02:17:27,320 --> 02:17:31,039
Speaker 2: doing the Seinfeld. But he there was one season when

2294
02:17:31,080 --> 02:17:35,000
Speaker 2: he got divorced from Cheryl, and the next season he

2295
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 2: shot in New York and that was the season when

2296
02:17:37,800 --> 02:17:42,080
Speaker 2: they shot the producers and Cheryl was not on that season,

2297
02:17:43,680 --> 02:17:46,119
Speaker 2: and then he and the next season she came back

2298
02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:48,520
Speaker 2: and I asked Larry about it, and he said, I

2299
02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:53,959
Speaker 2: couldn't do it. She makes me funny, which is and

2300
02:17:54,040 --> 02:17:57,600
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one thing she will not allow, which

2301
02:17:57,680 --> 02:17:59,600
Speaker 2: is a dead rabbit in the house or a dead

2302
02:18:00,120 --> 02:18:01,240
Speaker 2: dead squirrel.

2303
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:05,440
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't love her anymore. Tell her it's

2304
02:18:05,480 --> 02:18:10,480
Speaker 3: over between us, all right. Thank you very much for

2305
02:18:10,480 --> 02:18:11,280
Speaker 3: coming on this right.

2306
02:18:11,360 --> 02:18:11,960
Speaker 2: Thank you St.