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Speaker 1: Like Apollo thirteen in the nineteen seventies, Thomas Jefferson's eighteen

2
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Speaker 1: oh six Red River expedition into the West was a failure.

3
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Speaker 1: This is part two of how their stories should have gone.

4
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Speaker 1: I'm Dan Flores, and this is the American West, the

5
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Speaker 1: river that flowed from nowhere. Part two January fifteenth, eighteen

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Speaker 1: oh seven, Knakotish doctor Sibley's home, my dearest President Jefferson,

7
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: and so our journey continued. On the thirtieth of September,

8
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Speaker 1: with the Red River commencing to from a northwest direction

9
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: and the unfamiliar mountains gathering their strange shapes around us,

10
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 1: we came to a considerable stream of water coming in

11
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Speaker 1: from the west directly exiting the mountains, its waters salty,

12
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Speaker 1: but less so than the main river. Here our Pawnee

13
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Speaker 1: guide Tatasug advised us that this was the last point

14
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Speaker 1: for several days where the river's waters could be drunk.

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Speaker 1: That we must ascend this west fork called the Touhley,

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Speaker 1: with our pack mules to where the water became sweet

17
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Speaker 1: and fill every skin bag we possessed for continuing the

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Speaker 1: journey up the main river. Mister Freeman thus split the

19
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Speaker 1: party leaving eighteen at a camp at this place, while

20
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Speaker 1: nine of us followed the Toohley into its mountain. Fastness,

21
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 1: wholesome and sweet water was obtained within five miles of

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Speaker 1: travel up this little stream, and our skin bags were

23
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Speaker 1: soon filled to brimming. But so weird and oddly enchanting

24
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Speaker 1: was the country that it drew us onward, And with

25
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Speaker 1: one of the Indians and mister Taalipoon, mister Freeman and

26
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 1: I decided to explore further this narrow and most interesting defile.

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Speaker 1: This was our first experience with a kind of scenery

28
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Speaker 1: which became frequent, though never common, to our eyes during

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Speaker 1: the next months of our travel, a scenery, if I

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Speaker 1: may never before known within the confines of the United States.

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Speaker 1: The majority of the views we here submit to the

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Speaker 1: Presidential eye, recorded with our camera obscure box, are of

33
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Speaker 1: these canyons and of the rock mountains along the River Dunbar.

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Speaker 1: Yet I must add the sensible fact that none of

35
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Speaker 1: the profiles we recorded can give an adequate impression of

36
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Speaker 1: this country, which would require all the imagination and skill

37
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Speaker 1: of Europe's best painters of landscape to capture. It's now

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Speaker 1: four months since I've returned from this region, Yet its

39
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Speaker 1: fantastical shapes and hues of its coloring linger in my

40
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Speaker 1: mind like the faint impressions of a dream. Had I

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Speaker 1: not seen at all with my own eyes, I would

42
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Speaker 1: not believe such a place as the region about the

43
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Speaker 1: head sources of the Red River exists. The chasm of

44
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Speaker 1: the Tully, which is called by those familiar with the

45
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Speaker 1: country a canyon, continued for another ten miles beyond the

46
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: point where we left the pack mules. The reading with

47
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,919
Speaker 1: our instruments was taken far up it, in a grassy

48
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Speaker 1: basin surrounded by astonishing free standing columns of red sandstone rock,

49
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Speaker 1: but short of its ultimate source. Here was the first

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Speaker 1: place in more than fifteen miles that the canyon could

51
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Speaker 1: be crossed by horse, and through it a large and

52
00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: well traveled Indian road was found. Remarkable as this place was, however,

53
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Speaker 1: it paled in comparison to a point past the day before,

54
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 1: this place, which we called the defile. For stirring the mind,

55
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: the thoughts of awe exceeded any view we had during

56
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,640
Speaker 1: the entire journey. In this defile, the opposing red brown

57
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 1: sandstone walls filled with pebbles and shells closed to less

58
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 1: than sixty feet apart one from the other, and rose

59
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:27,679
Speaker 1: sheer and vertical to giddy heights. Strange lyrical bird song

60
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Speaker 1: and the roar of a spring that gushed from a

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00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:36,280
Speaker 1: rock amphitheater filled the canyon with sound. Owing to some superstition,

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Speaker 1: Tatasuck was struck by a sudden desire to escape the spot, and,

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Speaker 1: finding some footholes carved into the north face, he attempted

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Speaker 1: an ascent, which I accompanied with the barometer. A two

65
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: hour climb brought us to the crest of one of

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Speaker 1: the surrounding peaks. Yet, imagine my astonishment when we found

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Speaker 1: ourselves not atop of a mountain, as I had supposed.

68
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Speaker 1: While the defile we had traveled was visible to the east. Westward,

69
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Speaker 1: we stepped onto the margins of an open prairie, so flat, extensive,

70
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Speaker 1: and glaring in the sun, that, coupled with the stupendous

71
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Speaker 1: rent in the earth from which we had escaped, produced

72
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Speaker 1: in me several moments of utter disorientation. Elano staccato, Tatasuck

73
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,600
Speaker 1: said to me, Simply, a plane so flat it appeared

74
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Speaker 1: staked at the edges like a hide. The barometer showed

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Speaker 1: an elevation of three thy four hundred feet above the sea,

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Speaker 1: and a difference of eight hundred feet from the floor

77
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Speaker 1: of the defile. On returning from this journey on October seventh,

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Speaker 1: we found our main camp well supplied with meat from

79
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Speaker 1: the fortuitous appearance of buffalo, which had been almost absent

80
00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,240
Speaker 1: since we had left the Pawnee villages, but it now

81
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,479
Speaker 1: presented mixed herds of cows and bulls in the throes

82
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 1: of the rut. Swirling dust tornadoes obscured tremendous battles between

83
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Speaker 1: bulls for the favors of the cows. The grunting and

84
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Speaker 1: roaring of their violent jousts joining the mournful all night

85
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 1: serenades of the wolves to fashion a very symphony of

86
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Speaker 1: the primeval provision now by these distracted herds. On the

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Speaker 1: eighth we once again turned our horses up the Main

88
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 1: or Jefferson Fork, and began to follow its wide sandy

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Speaker 1: bed in a north northwest direction. As the river wound

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00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,799
Speaker 1: deeper into the surrounding mountains, which now gathered a mile

91
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,400
Speaker 1: distant from the river on both sides of our passage,

92
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 1: the strangeness grew daily, the colors of the cliffs and

93
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Speaker 1: raw earth, growing brighter, with brick reds and oranges, yellows, chocolates,

94
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 1: and myriads of other hues, sometimes laid one atop the other,

95
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: and striped mounds that appeared and disappeared and appeared again.

96
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,080
Speaker 1: It was a place so bizarre to the experience of

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Speaker 1: civilized man that the language to describe it fails of

98
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: all of us. I believe mister Freeman was most astonished

99
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 1: at the country, finding it so utterly unlike the misty

100
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 1: Ireland of his youth, and wondered aloud more than once

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00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: whether this was the same hemisphere as that fabled Isle.

102
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,680
Speaker 1: During the time when mister Freeman and I had ascended

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Speaker 1: the Tuley, our waiting party had found much sign of Indians,

104
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Speaker 1: and on several occasions we observed smokes at a distance.

105
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Speaker 1: Having traveled the entire distance from the Pawnees without meeting Indians,

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Speaker 1: although signs of their camps were abundant, we daily expected

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Speaker 1: an encounter. These expectations grew as we encountered truly astonishing

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Speaker 1: numbers of buffalo, their ranks sometimes barely parting sufficiently to

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Speaker 1: allow us to pass. Throughout the days, they poured in

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Speaker 1: brown streams down from the mountains on every side, thousands

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Speaker 1: in view. At a glance, we had the impression that

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Speaker 1: in entering this gathering passageway we had stumbled onto the

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Speaker 1: very sanctum sanctorum of the Buffalo tribe. On October twelfth,

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Speaker 1: having traversed in a rare morning fog, a most fantastical

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Speaker 1: and colorful part of the narrowing defile we were ascending,

116
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 1: the course of the stream turned abruptly to the west.

117
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Speaker 1: Now began a journey through a different setting. Springs gushing

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Speaker 1: from the walls grew abundant, the water became sweet, and

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Speaker 1: the winding canyon became clothed with a forest of cedars,

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Speaker 1: some low and rounded like hedges, with berries blue on,

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Speaker 1: some read on, others against the cliffs. Another kind of

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Speaker 1: cedar grew as tall and pointed and massive of trunk

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Speaker 1: as the cedars above the Cashadow village, twelve hundred miles

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Speaker 1: down river, our way now much blocked by boulders falling

125
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Speaker 1: from the rocky rims above us. On the fourteenth, discovering

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Speaker 1: a trail leading up through an opening in the rocks,

127
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: we ascended to the cliffs above, and once again found

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Speaker 1: ourselves confronted by the great plain. Apart from mister Freeman

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Speaker 1: and myself and a few others, most of the party

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Speaker 1: had yet to witness this phenomenon, and great were the

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Speaker 1: exclamations of surprise when the summits of the mountains yielded

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Speaker 1: to a featureless yellow plain extending into a jiggling infinity

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Speaker 1: of heat waves. The dried stalks of the soap plants

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00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:01,079
Speaker 1: the only vertical objects except for it. Exposure to the

135
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 1: sun and the occasional drain running into the canyon below

136
00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,079
Speaker 1: the great plain presented no obstacle to travel. We were

137
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Speaker 1: thus moving more rapidly than heretofore, when one of the

138
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Speaker 1: pawnees appeared with word that a very considerable camp of

139
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Speaker 1: Aton's was fixed in the defile some miles before us.

140
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Speaker 1: By late afternoon we were in sight of their tents,

141
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,720
Speaker 1: gleaming whitely in the sun and scattered about the canyon floor,

142
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,160
Speaker 1: just below a place where the stream cascaded down several

143
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:42,840
Speaker 1: very picturesque waterfalls. Captain Sparks sent Tatasuck and Talapoon forward

144
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 1: to announce us, and before sunset we again descended into

145
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Speaker 1: the canyon, where we entered a camp of one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty tents, almost one thousand persons, hundreds of very

147
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,920
Speaker 1: noisy dogs, and round about which grazed several thousand horses

148
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Speaker 1: and mules that were constantly coming and going to pastures

149
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,199
Speaker 1: at some distance from the main camp. This camp had

150
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 1: more than one chief, for it was made up of

151
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,160
Speaker 1: several divisions. But we were escorted to the tent of

152
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,439
Speaker 1: its generally acknowledged leader, a man who appeared near fifty

153
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Speaker 1: years of age, extremely fit, with a bright eye, and,

154
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Speaker 1: as we were soon to learn, a quick mind. Wary

155
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 1: at first, for they had been in the country upon

156
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 1: the Arkansas and had heard nothing of our coming, he

157
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,920
Speaker 1: soon inclined as some others were not, towards greeting us

158
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,439
Speaker 1: in friendly fashion, and inside a spacious, high tent, copiously fitted,

159
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Speaker 1: he bade us smoke with him through our interpreter, Telepoon,

160
00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 1: who spoke with him in both signs and the Aiton language,

161
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 1: a tongue entirely unrelated to that of the Pawnees. Mister

162
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 1: Freeman explained the nature of our journey. When he began

163
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Speaker 1: to speak, he said he he was known to the

164
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 1: Spanish as Cordero, but that in his language he was

165
00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 1: isum Banbi, meaning handsome, wolf Isa, the height and word

166
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 1: for wolf, was a common cognomen among their warriors. His

167
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: people were the Cutsotikas, or buffalo hunters, he said, and

168
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Speaker 1: they traded in both Santa Fe and San Antone, where

169
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Speaker 1: the Spaniards called them by the name Comanches. The Aitans

170
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Speaker 1: or Comanches, he said, were as numerous as the stars,

171
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Speaker 1: and owned all the country from San Antone to Santa

172
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Speaker 1: Fe and north to the Arkansas. He told us frankly

173
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Speaker 1: and with a prim satisfaction, that it was good that

174
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,440
Speaker 1: the great Mystery had placed a forest towards the sunrise

175
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 1: to him the Comanches in for if there were prairies

176
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Speaker 1: and buffalo and horses in that direction, he would fear

177
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Speaker 1: for the people of the United States, as the Comanches

178
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 1: would surely overrun us. He said. They were at peace

179
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,439
Speaker 1: with the Spaniards, who traveled and traded among them freely,

180
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,240
Speaker 1: and whom they suffered to raise horses for them. He

181
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: called the river we were on kiche ake Hono, meaning

182
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 1: burrowing squirrel river, for the countless numbers of the towns

183
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,200
Speaker 1: of these animals along it, he said. The traders from

184
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 1: Santa Fe called this canyon Palo Duro. On specific inquiry.

185
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Speaker 1: To mister Freeman's questions, Cordero added, to downs already growing

186
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 1: among us. This river would not take us to near

187
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 1: Santa Fe. He said, beyond the great tableland was a

188
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 1: river that came down from the Spanish peaks near Santa Fe,

189
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 1: but it took a course almost due south. A few

190
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,960
Speaker 1: days ride to the north of us was another river

191
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,080
Speaker 1: that came out of the snowy sierra in the country

192
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 1: of what of their divisions called the Yamparika. Told of

193
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,480
Speaker 1: our instructions to locate only the head sources of this

194
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: river we were on. He remarked again that it and

195
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,360
Speaker 1: the river to Santa Fe were not a part of

196
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 1: the same water, but said he would show us all

197
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 1: the waters of any rivers we wished to see. Cordero

198
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 1: accepted mister Freeman's offer of a United States flag and

199
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,160
Speaker 1: showed it utmost respect. He said they welcomed our traders

200
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 1: among them, but that Nakelish was too far to come

201
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 1: to trade. He did not like the idea of a

202
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 1: trade factory in their country. Thus embarked a period of

203
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 1: near to a month when a significant portion of these

204
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 1: Indians travel with us, a circumstance not entirely pleasing to

205
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,600
Speaker 1: us because of the inclination of their young men to

206
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 1: make off with our horses and goods. With apology, Cordero

207
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: returned or replaced what he could, yet the annoyance sometimes

208
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: strained our daily intercourse. The Hitans or Comanches are a

209
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,000
Speaker 1: large people, heavier than many Indians, with broad faces and

210
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: slow movements until they alight their horses, at which horse

211
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 1: and rider achieve a remarkable unity of movement and activity.

212
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 1: Watching their feats of horsemanship in their home country, and

213
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 1: more especially the flare with which they pursue and drive

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00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 1: their arrows entirely through the buffalo whilst riding at full gallop,

215
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 1: I was put in mind of the cavalry of the

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00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: Tartars on the steps of Mongolia. Like the Mongols, they

217
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,320
Speaker 1: are herders of horses, yet they rarely eat of them.

218
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 1: Their horses are a means to hunt, and they also

219
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 1: trade them widely. They live exclusively in buffalo skin tents,

220
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: the covers and poles of which they are endlessly replenishing,

221
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: but which endure the constant winds which sweep this open country,

222
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,640
Speaker 1: and are dissembled so rapidly by their women that a

223
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 1: camp can be broken to search for fresh pasture for

224
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: their herds. In moments, the men have as many horses

225
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 1: as they can accumulate, and as many wives as they

226
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: can care for, the younger of which accompany them on

227
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 1: their hunts and raids. Comanche women engage daily in the

228
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 1: labor of processing animal skins, the results of which are

229
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 1: exceedingly handsome. But among these hunters they do not appear

230
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 1: to share political power to the extent the Pawnee women do.

231
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: The Comanches are at war with the Osages and the Apaches,

232
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 1: but were at this very time in the process of

233
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 1: making peace through innermarriage with their neighbors, the Kihways. Beyond

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00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: any expectation, Indians from other tribes, and a great many

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00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 1: Spaniards captured as children are found among them, living as

236
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 1: Comanches and apparently wishing for no other life. I befriended

237
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 1: one of their physicians, a man of particular influence among them,

238
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 1: who instructed me in their materia medica. Particularly interesting or

239
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 1: three of their cures. The first a plant, which he

240
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,080
Speaker 1: said inhibits a woman's ability to conceive of child. They

241
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 1: also have a method of curing toothache or the common

242
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 1: aching head viz. By the chewing of the stems of

243
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 1: the ordinary willow. The third cure came from a kind

244
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 1: of small cactus which they have only recently learned the

245
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: use of, and which grows far to the south. They

246
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 1: consume it in a ceremony as a general tonic of

247
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 1: good health, he said, And to speak with the great spirit,

248
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: he wore the skin of a very large spotted leopard

249
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 1: of their country, and, on seeing my interest, said the

250
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: living creature was fierce and preyed on colts and buffalo,

251
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: calves and sheep in the high mountains. In Spanish, he

252
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 1: called it el tigre. I think it must be the

253
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: large cat Linnaeus calls jaguar, and named Felis Unca. On

254
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 1: the morning of October seventeenth, having remained here as long

255
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: as we thought prudent, we commenced our journey up the river,

256
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 1: now finding it to dwindle rapidly in size. Accompanied by

257
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: Cardero and more than a hundred of their warriors and

258
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,360
Speaker 1: young women, we now found ourselves traveling through a shallow

259
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 1: canyon like valley set two hundred feet below the surface

260
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: of the immense plain. As we moved west, various other

261
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,880
Speaker 1: shallow drains joined the main fork, but Cordero directed us

262
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 1: to one with the best water. Although scarcely a trickle,

263
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:08,119
Speaker 1: which he called Tierra Blanca, it contained a highway along

264
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 1: its banks, fully the equal of the road across the Cumberland.

265
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: On the twenty second, at a spring below one of

266
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: the last of the rocky bluffs that had defined this

267
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: valley for many miles, corderobeye us fill our bags full,

268
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: and gave us to understand that we were now not

269
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 1: far from the sources of our river. The stream, water

270
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,440
Speaker 1: found only in some holes at intervals during the previous day,

271
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 1: now gave out entirely, as did the white rock strata

272
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 1: above the drain, and the bed became merely a low

273
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 1: winding depression across the plain. This plain was thick with

274
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 1: buffalo and herds of gazelle goats as far as the

275
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: eye could penetrate, their forms, very often appearing outrageously distorted

276
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 1: in the wriggle of the heat waves. Our hunters had

277
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,640
Speaker 1: endured merciless hilarity from the company when reporting the difficulties

278
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 1: of shooting buffaloes walking on twenty foot stilts, but now

279
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: had the satisfaction of confirmation. Atop the shimmering el Yon.

280
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,400
Speaker 1: Thus it was that at midday on the twenty third

281
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 1: of October eighteen oh six, the depression we had been

282
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: following almost fading into the general surface of the Great Plain.

283
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 1: One of the men gave a shout that he saw

284
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: some break ahead, and within an hour we had all

285
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: gathered on the brink of a tremendous precipice, falling one

286
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 1: thousand feet below us to the west. Its cliffs stretching

287
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: as far as we could see southwest and northeast. Before

288
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: us to the west lay outliers broken off from the

289
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,640
Speaker 1: enormous table land over which we had come. Those outliers

290
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: composed a country of flat top mountains extending away into

291
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: the opalescent distance. It was the grandest site I ever

292
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: beheld in these United States. But the snowy peaks said

293
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: to stretch north from Santa Fe were nowhere in view.

294
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 1: Our readings indicated a position of west longitude one hundred

295
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: three degrees thirty minutes, and an elevation of the headwaters

296
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: of the Red River of four thousand, nine hundred and

297
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: seventy five feet above the sea, proof that the immense

298
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: plain had been steadily rising as we had tracked west.

299
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: Mister Freeman asked of the Indians if there were a

300
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 1: route to Santa Fe through the tortuous country below us,

301
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 1: and how far. They answered, yes, that only two days

302
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 1: ride west was a river running south that came from

303
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: the high mountains above Santa Fe, but that the sun

304
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: rose and fell ten times between here and the Spanish

305
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: towns during the rest of this day. Mister Freeman took

306
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: no counsel, but consulted his written orders by lamp well

307
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: after dark. A huge golden moon rose out of the

308
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: plain to the east this night, illuminating the prairie in

309
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: a silvery blue cast. When one walked away from the fires,

310
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: and lighting the gashes and throwing immense shadows across the

311
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: wild tablelands west of us. The wolves sang and the

312
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: buffaloes bellowed across a country wilder and more remote than

313
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: any man in our party save for the Indians, had

314
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: ever witnessed or even imagined. Before I retired, mister Freeman

315
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: came to my tent and told me, with very evident

316
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: regret and not a little heat, that, given the specificity

317
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: of his orders from the President's own mouth, our outward

318
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 1: journey was now at an end that I should prepare

319
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: for the return journey two mornings. Hence that because the

320
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: Spanish force from Santa Fe might still be searching for us,

321
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: he and Captain Sparks agreed we should attempt to return

322
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: by a more direct route to the Pony villages and

323
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: descend the river with our barge as soon as water

324
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 1: and weather permitted. That the Indians with us were in

325
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: any case urging escape from the surface of El Yon

326
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: before the great cold winds from the north swept the

327
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: exposed plane, but that he and Captain Sparks, with Talipoon

328
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: and Tatasuck and our aiton escort, had thought to ride

329
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: along the precipice on the morrow, and welcomed my company.

330
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: We rose with the moon low in the sky to

331
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: the west, and rode from camp along the precipice as

332
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: the globe began in the east, notwithstanding that our course

333
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: lay away from the sunrise. Over the next hour we

334
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 1: repeatedly reined in our horses to observe a phenomenon of

335
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: these immense deserts, the sun's rays fingering the eastern sky

336
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: in a most regular pattern, resembling the spokes of a wheel.

337
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: At one point Captain Sparks rode up to tell me

338
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: that the hunters referred to this singular occurrence by the

339
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: name prairie aurora. Given mister Dunbar's interesting studies of the rainbow,

340
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: I preserved an image of it with the camera obscura.

341
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: Although the rays of the aurora lack a prismatic effect,

342
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: I supposed that refracted sunlight must account for it. The

343
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: Indians had no interest in this explanation, but made much

344
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: of the phenomenon, and when it finally faded at the

345
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: moment the dazzling orb crested the horizon, I observed Cordero

346
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: to face the sun with outspread arms, and before a

347
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: small ceremony, immersing himself, horse and weapons in smoke. We

348
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: use up this day riding the great western precipice of Elon,

349
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: I collecting plants and mineral samples in the declivities of

350
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: the steep and dry sandstone mountains below the brink. Mister

351
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: Freeman and Captain Sparks in taking readings. At the head

352
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: of a more southerly headwater drain of the river than

353
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: we ascended, one called Frio. It was here that I

354
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: saw the new species of dwarf Pinus. Collected the delicate

355
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: little piece shrub, I believe a new genus, And found

356
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: the silvery shrub of the Astor family, growing with and

357
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: in appearance very like the feathery Archemesia of this country,

358
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: but with flower bracts blooming a most vivid yellow. I

359
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: believe it a new genus. These were, among many other

360
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: species of an alien world. On October twenty fifth, we

361
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: reluctantly turned our faces eastward once again and began to

362
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: follow a trace to the northeast that Cordero's people led us,

363
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: along with the broken lands below. The plane, sometimes visible

364
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: and close, while at other times we crept across the

365
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: stupendous flat surface of el Yon, as if the world

366
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: were aught but plane and sky. No one was allowed

367
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: to straggle or even hunt during these crossings, for fear

368
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: of losing them. In a country of no landmarks. The

369
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: plane is dotted at intervals with shallow ponds, round like

370
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: plates of cracked mud trampled by the surrounding herds. But

371
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: when watery, these ponds are frequented by animals, and by

372
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: such an array of ducks, geese, waiters, and a species

373
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: of gray crane that viewed from afar, we first thought

374
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: off the air above them suspended vortexes of beast warms.

375
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: When we finally heard the cries of the geese and

376
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: the cranes, I and others of the men found this

377
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: enormous plane, swept by constant strong winds, monotonous in its scenery,

378
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: entirely lacking an echo, to be oddly stirring. This is

379
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: undoubtedly one of the largest plains in the world, and

380
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: it has the kind of stern, self assured grandeur of

381
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: a great ocean. We made the crossing from the sources

382
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: of the Jefferson Fort to the head Gullies of the

383
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: north are Dunbar Fork in six days of riding, always

384
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: angling towards particular springs and camps known to the Indians.

385
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: At the second of these there occurred an interesting encounter

386
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: at a most fascinating spot, an alcove carved by sweet

387
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: water gushing from a spring, and a rock amphitheater that

388
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: was covered top to bottom in various painted and carved

389
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: Indian symbols. These were many and varied, some painted in

390
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: red ochre, some including what appeared to our eyes as

391
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: a Spanish bull in black charcoal. In the midst of

392
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: these frescoes, and extending the length of the alcove was

393
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: a large and remarkable serpent, painted in red ochre and

394
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: capped by a single horn on its forehead. Whilst an

395
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: investigation of these interesting symbols, a party appeared in sight,

396
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: and within an hour disembarked near our encampment. They proved

397
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: to be traders, some Spanish, the greater part Indians from

398
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: the New Mexico towns and the Indian Pueblo of Saint Domingo.

399
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: They were much astonished to see us with two ric

400
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: and noisome carts filled with breads, vegetables, blankets and wares.

401
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: They were bound for a rescatte or trade fair, they said,

402
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: at a place along the eastern precipice of El Yon

403
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: they called Kittaque. Here was presented an interesting opportunity, and

404
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: so I engaged them through Talipoon's translation, as to the

405
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: meanings of the symbols on the wall behind us, particularly

406
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: with respect to whether the great serpent depicted some creature

407
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: not known to science. Their response was that the serpent

408
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: did indeed represent a creature which they called Ganado, the

409
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: great horned serpent that protected the waters, and that because

410
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: of its appearance on this wall, weary travelers could always

411
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: find water here. To further inquiry, they said that Ganado

412
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: appeared only in dreams or ceremonies, that the rattlesnakes were

413
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: his familiars and common emissaries. This group accompanied us for

414
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: two days before turning southeast to their rendezvous with certain

415
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: Aiton bands. One of them was a Spaniard from a

416
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: town called Taos on the waters of the Real Bravo,

417
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: a man of about forty years who was not only literate,

418
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: but literary. We made ourselves known to one another using

419
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: Latin terms and phrases, and he gave me to understand

420
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: that he had been born in Galicia, where he studied

421
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: some law, and had immigrated to New Mexico in search

422
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: of adventure and wealth. That the former had found him,

423
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: but that he had alluded the latter entirely. His name

424
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: was Trujillo, and he expressed a most interesting view of

425
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: the surrounding country and its potential. It was his opinion

426
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: that the Spanish approach to these gass plains and mountains

427
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: would be the more workable than ours, for they would

428
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: leave the country a grazing commons, and the only harm

429
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: would be to the wild hers, but we Americans, with

430
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: our zeal for possessing the world, would try to turn

431
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: these lands into a place of individual grasping, and having

432
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: no tolerance either for the wild beasts nor the Indians,

433
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: would entirely banish both to my protests. He wondered, good

434
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: naturedly if I had read Cervantes and gave me to

435
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: understand that our two nations jousting for this region was

436
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: an affair of the windmills, that nature had ever owned

437
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: these expanses, and ever would. Among the other interesting particulars

438
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: of our short acquaintance, he showed us his method of

439
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: hunting El sibola the buffalo, from horseback with a lance.

440
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: Mounting their fastest horse, he proceeded to run at one

441
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: of the herds that constantly surrounded us in this region,

442
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: and within a space of minutes had plunged a steel

443
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: tip lance deep into the vitals of two fully grown

444
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: buffalo running flat out across the prairie. It was as

445
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: daring a display of courage and skill pitted against large,

446
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: dangerous beasts as I've ever witnessed. He told us he

447
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: had learned the technique emulating bullfighters as a child in Spain.

448
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: Before they left us, they told us that a party

449
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: of Kiaways they had met the week before, related that

450
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: other Americans, led by a man named Pike, known to

451
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: Captain Sparks as a favorite of General Wilkinson, were ascending

452
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: the Arkansas River north of us. On the afternoon of

453
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: October thirty first, we suddenly came within view of the

454
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: head gullies of the northern branches of the Red River,

455
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: and realized we were approaching the eastern edge of the

456
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: great Tableland. The plunging vertical drainages here possessed springs of

457
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: good water and small copses of the cotton tree, and

458
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: their sides were rich in the bright hues of rock

459
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: and mineral we had seen on the main Red River.

460
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: This cordero assured us were waters of the mountainous river

461
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: we had named the Dunbar Fork. On our outward journey

462
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: here we experienced a most astonishing occurrence never witnessed. For

463
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: a full day, we rode through a migration of hundreds

464
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: of massive teacup sized spiders, their bodies, brown, legs, black,

465
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: and hair covered, all traveling northward. Although I could not

466
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: discern the object of their journey, The barometer here indicated

467
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: an elevation of three thy two hundred feet above the sea,

468
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: at a longitude of one hundred one degrees seven minutes

469
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: west of Green During the night of November fourth, having

470
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: rested and provisioned ourselves for beginning our exploration of this

471
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: dunbar fork of the Red River, we were struck by

472
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: the first of the great north winds of which the

473
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: Indians had spoken with such awe and urgency. Nowhere in

474
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: the Eastern States, save during a hurricane along the Carolina shore,

475
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: have I ever experienced the equal of this wind. The thermometer,

476
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: which had stood at sixty seven degrees fahrenheit the evening before,

477
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 1: had dropped the six degrees fahrenheit by morning. All day,

478
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: the wind blew relentlessly from the northwest, pushing before it

479
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: a fine yellow dust that coated us as if with

480
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: volcanic ash. It sensibly slackened some thirty hours after it commenced,

481
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: and clouds of stars then appeared in the intense night cold.

482
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: The night was then filled with a cacoffin of strange

483
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: flutings and weird cries from unfathomable numbers of birds passing

484
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: over heading south. Four days journey down this little river,

485
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: and passing through immense numbers of buffalo, all drifting southward,

486
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: we left the last outliers of the strange flat top tablelands.

487
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: The next morning, Captain Sparks, riding ahead with the Indians,

488
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: spied the blue uplift of conical mountains on the eastern horizon,

489
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: and by that afternoon we made camp in a place

490
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: where the river cut directly through the most westerly range

491
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: of them. These ranges of peaks, for there are several,

492
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: scattered one from the other across the plain, are not

493
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: a spur of the Western Sierra or Mexican mountains, nor

494
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: are they lofty. We ascended to the topmost points of

495
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: several of them, including the highest peak in the main cluster,

496
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: and measured an elevation by barometer of two thousand, four

497
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: hundred feet. The peaks of these mountains thus lie below

498
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: the lowest surface we measured on the tablelands of the Yanno.

499
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: They present the appearance of immense piles of granite blocks,

500
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: a mineral not seen elsewhere on Red River. Their vegetable

501
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: clothing is oaks and cedars only, though the main range

502
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: preserves on its height spacious meadows glowing orange in the

503
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: sun of the knee high bunch grass of this country.

504
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: We found elk and buffalo plenty about these mountains, But

505
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: no animal caught our attention in this region so much

506
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: as the droves of wild horses here in vast numbers.

507
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: Knowing the President's fascination with the subject, I took special

508
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: pains to observe them. In its white state, the horse

509
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: naturally segregates into droves or munyatas, as the old horse

510
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: catcher Taalipoon calls them, each ruled by a stallion whose

511
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: chief occupation seems the difficult work of keeping his harem

512
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: together and adding to it by theft and seduction if

513
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: he can. Ungroomed, the wild horse presents a striking sight,

514
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: its main flowing below its neck, its forelock extending to

515
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: its nostrils, and its tails sweeping the ground. The eye

516
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: is glowing and alert. Though small, many appeared exceedingly well made,

517
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: and they present all the colors of hounds in a

518
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: Virginia kennel, the tan with black, mane and tail predominating.

519
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: Given the value of horses in the United States, these

520
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: amidst droves are already being sought out by our hunters

521
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: who stealthily avoid the space and his patrols and corral

522
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: them our trade metalware to the Indians for them. A

523
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: famed horse catcher named Nolan drove thousands of these prairie

524
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: steeds to the States before losing his life to the Spaniards.

525
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: Irrespective descending the river, we thrice met with hunters engaged

526
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: in the wild horse trade. On November fourteenth, following the

527
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: night when the north wind lay four inches of snow

528
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: across the country, our descent of the mountain fork of

529
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: the Red River took us to its confluence with the

530
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: mainstream and to our own campsite of September eighteenth to twenty.

531
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: Here Cordero and his people, anxious to join their companions

532
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: wintering in the deep canyons far up the river, begged

533
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: to take their leave of us, notwithstanding certain minor frictions

534
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: which had developed from so long a travel together. Mister

535
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: Freeman honored them with a feast and dance which for

536
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: some until the morning planet glowed a molten silver in

537
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: the rose sky. Anxious down to descend the river before

538
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: winter set in, we proceeded rapidly for the Pawnee villages,

539
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: encountering nothing noteworthy, except that for some weeks we had

540
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: observed that the plains round about us were seen to

541
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: be on fire. These fires the Indians had set to

542
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: direct the movements of the buffalo freshen the grass for

543
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: their horses, and to burn up the snakes and annoying insects.

544
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: This practice seems to confirm mister Dunbar's assertion that these

545
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: immense and grassy plains exists because of fire, a view

546
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: in which mister Freeman concurs. I am not so certain.

547
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: The rising elevation of the country up the river, which

548
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: is seen to correspond sensibly with the diminution of the

549
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: grass and oaks and other common species, should not be dismissed.

550
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: But I'm anxious to discuss with mister Dunbar my theory

551
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: that the spread of grasslands and the dwarfing of vegetation

552
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: are related instead to a sensible and gradual decrease in

553
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: atmospheric precipitation. As one journeys into the interior of Louisiana. Consequently,

554
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: the country about the sources of the Red River can

555
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: never beckon the farmer. It's a region the architect of

556
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: nature has instead fitted perfectly for wild beasts. We were

557
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: greeted warmly at the Pawnee villages on the twenty third,

558
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: finding our craft and stores left with them in good shape.

559
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: We remain there awaiting a rise in the river until

560
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: the second instant of December. During that time, with Sampson's assistance,

561
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: as he has become very skilled in these tasks, I

562
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: was able to dry and repackage my specimens from the

563
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: sources of the river. A total of forty one vegetables,

564
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: thirteen used as cures by the Indians, fifteen grass, shrub

565
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: and tree specimens, and a collection of seventeen birds and

566
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: eleven quadrupeds. The last includes the skins and horns of

567
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: the hopping deer, a skin and skull with fangs of

568
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: the large leopard cat of this country, and a necklace

569
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: of four imposing claws of the giant white bears, said

570
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: to be numerous Farther into Louisiana. Also live specimens of

571
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: a curious lizard beset with projecting horns and knobs, and

572
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: an active, vividly colored iguana from the Palo Duro. The

573
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: greater part of these I believe to be new species

574
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: and several new genera. Also eighteen ink sketches of the

575
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: country upriver, done with the camera obscura, to which notes

576
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: have been added indicating coloration, and hopes that paintings may

577
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: be worked up from them, although I dare not speculate

578
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: on the receptivity of our nation to an art of

579
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: such scenery as exists on our western borders. Three boxes

580
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: of minerals representing the geological strata we met with accompany

581
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: the collection, as well. Those who may be inclined to

582
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: doubt our reports as to the astonishing hues of much

583
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: of western Louisiana, may there satisfy themselves. On the second

584
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: we pushed off into the river and began our descent

585
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: to the village of the Coshatas, where mister Freeman planned

586
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: to leave the barge until the high water of the

587
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: spring enabled a more favorable penetration of the great Swamp.

588
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: The voyage downriver was made without incident. We passed the

589
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: great southward swing in the river the day before Christmas

590
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:02,479
Speaker 1: eighteen o six, and made the Coshada village five days after. There,

591
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 1: being insufficient horse to transport the party overland to Nacolush,

592
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: mister Freeman left the major portion under command of Captain

593
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: sparks to march the road eastward around the Great Raft

594
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: and the Great Swamp. While he and I rode in advance.

595
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: We reached doctor Sibley's home in Nacolush on the fifth

596
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: day of the new year. I should be in New

597
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: Orleans in February, after reporting to doctor Dunbar in Natchez.

598
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: With respect to the country up the Red River, it

599
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: is unnecessary to say more. It is so entirely unlike

600
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: any other in the United States, a scenery of vast

601
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: horizontal spaces and stupendous defiles, of bizarrely colored earth that

602
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: is so strange, nay even alien to the eye, that

603
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: one wonders now what our people would ever make of it.

604
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,240
Speaker 1: Neither the country nor the course of the river turned out,

605
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: upon examination to bear a resemblance to what the President expected.

606
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: Many of us, although mister Freeman refuses to concede the idea,

607
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: wonder whether the Spaniards permitted our expiration precisely because they

608
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: knew this, which explains why the Spanish commander never referenced

609
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: Santa Fe or the snowy Mountains in transmitting his government's

610
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: demands with respect to our course of travel. Indeed, some

611
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: among us believe this region might best be left to

612
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: the Indian, the hunter, the buffalo, and wolf and wild

613
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: mustang forever. I am, sir, your most obedient servant, Peter.

614
00:44:46,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: Cussis Dan It's good be with you as always.

615
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Randall, good to see you man.

616
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: Today we are talking about the second part of your

617
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: sort of counterfactual account of the Freeman Custis expedition, written

618
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 3: from sort of a first it's a letter to Jefferson,

619
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: essentially explaining what they're finding as they go up to

620
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: seek out the the headwaters of the Red River. And

621
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: at the end, I'm going to start at the end.

622
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 3: At the end of this, it closes with a line

623
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 3: about the headwaters not being what the President expected. And

624
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 3: that leads me to wonder, given that you're the expert

625
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 3: on this expedition, what did they have an understanding of

626
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: what Jefferson anticipated they'd find. Was it just a blank

627
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: spot on the map, or did they have what they're

628
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: actually a vision against which they were sort of they

629
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: would have measured their findings.

630
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a that's a great question to start this out.

631
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: And let me say that what prompted my sitting down

632
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: and writing this what is in fact historical fiction. What

633
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: would have happened had Freeman and cuss has not been

634
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: stopped by a Spanish force in the summer of eighteen

635
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: oh six and had continued into the southwest and gotten

636
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: to explore was being at Montello, I don't know it

637
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: was twenty years ago, probably, and walking into the receiving

638
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: room of Jefferson's home and seeing because they had tried

639
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: to they had tried to do it as sort of

640
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: a period presentation, seeing on the wall of his receiving

641
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: room a map of the west post Lewis and Clark

642
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: that showed the Columbia River, Missouri River, the Northern Rockies,

643
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: all of that route mapped out with William Clark's map

644
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: and showing some of Zebulun Pike's trek across the plains

645
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: in eighteen o seven, and he returns after having been

646
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: captured by the Spaniards in eighteen ten. But the Red

647
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: River itself, which Jefferson said several times in his letters

648
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: to various people, was to him, next to the Missouri,

649
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: the most interesting water of the Mississippi. The Red River

650
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: itself is unexplored. It is shown on the map only

651
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: as far as the old French town of Nacolush, which

652
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: is about three hundred miles two hundred and fifty miles

653
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: up the river in what is now central Louisiana, and

654
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: beyond that the whole southern plains in southwest is Terra incognita.

655
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: Santa Fe is represented way south down the Rocky mountains

656
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: and way out beyond the plains. But it's a blank,

657
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: And so I realized right until the time of Jefferson's death,

658
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: because the Red River doesn't finally get explored to its

659
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: headwaters until the eighteen seventies, Right up until the time

660
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: that Thomas Jefferson died in eighteen twenty six, he still

661
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: didn't know what was up the Red River. The American

662
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: cartography map makers still didn't know and weren't going to

663
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: know for a long time. And so of course they

664
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: would have known had Freeman and Custus gotten to proceed

665
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: to the sources of the river. What Jefferson based his

666
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 1: letter of exploring instructions to Thomas Freeman on in terms

667
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: of where the Red River had its headwaters and where

668
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: this expedition was going to lead them was a map

669
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: that had been done in eighteen o four in the

670
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: Mexican archives that by Alexander von Humboldt. And von Humboldt

671
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: visited Washington in eighteen oh five and gave Jefferson a

672
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: copy of this map, and using the archives in Mexico,

673
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: von Humboldt had basically combined two rivers to create the

674
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: Red River. He had combined the Pacas River, which takes

675
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: its headwaters in the rocky mountains above Santa Fe, with

676
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: the Red River, which is what Jefferson and von Humboldt

677
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: and map makers at the time assumed was one continuous stream.

678
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: So Jefferson's instructions to Thomas Freeman, given to him at

679
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: a private dinner in November of eighteen oh five, were

680
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: that he was to explore to the headwaters of the

681
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: Red River because he wanted to map out. What he

682
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: wanted to do was to map the Louisiana purchase and

683
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: see what all he had acquired. But he told Freeman,

684
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: I want you to go only as far as the

685
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: headwaters of the Red River extend no further than that.

686
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: And he was very explicit, evidently both orally and in

687
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: the written instructions about where Freeman was supposed to end

688
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 1: his expedition at the headwaters of the Red River. Freeman later,

689
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks after the meeting with the private

690
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: dinner with Jefferson, wrote a friend of his and said,

691
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to lead an expedition into the environs of

692
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: Santa Fe. How would you like to be my cashier

693
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: in that country? He says to his friend. I'm not

694
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: sure what that line meant, but what's obvious is that

695
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: Freeman thought the Red River was going to take him

696
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: to Santa Fe, New Mexico. And there may have been

697
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: some supposition that what they were going to do was

698
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: to try to open the later Santa Fe Trail, which

699
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: only twenty years later is going to actually open up

700
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: between Missouri and New Mexico. In any case, didn't happen.

701
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: Spanish army stopped the expedition when it had gone about

702
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty miles up the Red River, and

703
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: so we didn't get what we got with Lewis and Clark.

704
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: I mean, just imagine, because the Spaniards wanted to stop

705
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark too. If Lewis and Clark had been

706
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: stopped saying the Mandan villages and had to turn around

707
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: at the Mandan villages and go back home, and never

708
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: proceeded across the plains, saw the rockies, saw the Pacific coast,

709
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 1: the Pacific Ocean. That's kind of what on a smaller scale,

710
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: what we lost. And so this is what I wanted

711
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: to recreate.

712
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: And Jefferson's instructions to stop at the head of the

713
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 3: Red River, I can assume are shaped by or in

714
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 3: order to avoid his desire to avoid the confrontation with

715
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: the Spanish. And nonetheless they still run into that.

716
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they still still run into that because the Spain

717
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: sends out a force both from New Mexico and a

718
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: second force from Texas. And of course, you know, and

719
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: I think I said this when we were talking about

720
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: part one in the last episode, it's fairly easy to

721
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: stop somebody who's exploring a river. I mean, all you

722
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: do is just aim for landing up stream of them

723
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: on the river, and then array of force across the river.

724
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: And the only reason, because Spain did send expeditions out

725
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 1: to stop Lewis and Clark, the only reason they didn't

726
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: manage to do that with Lewis and Clark is that

727
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: the Missouri River of course tracks as they're ascending it.

728
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: It tracks far to the north, up into the Dakotas,

729
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: into North Dakota and Montana, and sending out a military

730
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: force from Texas or New Mexico. They never could actually

731
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: ever get to the Missouri River. They always the two

732
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 1: expeditions that were sent out to stop Lewis and Clark

733
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: turned around and return before they ever got to the Missouri.

734
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: But the Red River it was close, and so they

735
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: managed to pull it off.

736
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 3: In this part of the story, you also reference kind

737
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 3: of a fascinating aspect of this part of the country

738
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: and this history, which is the horse trade that unfolded

739
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 3: very early on in the American West Southwest and Jeffers

740
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: this is another thing that Jefferson's very interested in, and

741
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 3: it's something that you've written about. So I kind of

742
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: wonder if people weren't aware of this phenomenon. What do

743
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 3: you mean if you're referring to the horse trade.

744
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did. One of the early episodes of the

745
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: podcast was on this. I think I called it Bringing

746
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: Home All the Pretty Horses, and it was out of

747
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: a piece of Wild New World that I had written

748
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: about the horse trade. And there's also actually a chapter

749
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: in American Serengetti with that title. So in contrast to

750
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: the northern West, where the fur trade is the predominant

751
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: sort of extractionist kind of trade that Americans are interested

752
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: in with the fur trade companies and with mountain men

753
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: and all that. On the southern prairies and in the

754
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: southern in this canyon country where I have Freeman and

755
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: Custis going, the primary animal that interests Americans with an

756
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: eye on making money out of the West is the

757
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: wild horse. And the reason they're interested in these horses

758
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: is because one thing, the horses are basically running free

759
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: on the plains, and all you have to do is

760
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: just capture them or trade for them from the Indians

761
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: and the comanches and groups like that are big traders

762
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: of horses to Americans who go west. But the desire

763
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: for horse is the market for them back home is

764
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: from the advancing American frontier across the South and the Midwest.

765
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: As the frontier advances, they simply don't have enough horses,

766
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: and so a horse trade begins actually before the fur

767
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: trade ever does. In the northern West, it begins as

768
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: early as seventeen ninety, long before Lewis and Clark ever

769
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: go up the Missouri River. Horse trader named Philip Nolan

770
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: is going west from Natchez, Mississippi and going out onto

771
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: the plains in this country that I'm describing that Freeman

772
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: and custis explore and trading for horses and capturing horses,

773
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: and so it becomes the primary commercial kind of animal

774
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: from the whole southern plains in Southwest for the period

775
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: really from about seventeen ninety up until essentially the middle

776
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century. It's a major trade.

777
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 3: That you touched on. Something I also wanted to bring

778
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 3: up here, which is, as I was reading this, there's

779
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 3: there's a certain gravity in maybe in the middle of

780
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 3: this piece when it comes to the descriptions of the Comanche.

781
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: And it's a name that's familiar to a lot of people,

782
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 3: but the Commanche have a really unique history. There's a

783
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: book Commanche Empire that's sort of a landmark work. But

784
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 3: I wonder if you can give give the listeners sort

785
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: of an an overviewer of an impression of what makes

786
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 3: the Comanche sort of exceptional or or unique in terms

787
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 3: of this broader story of competing and contesting empires on

788
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 3: the on the planes.

789
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, one of the lines I have the Comanche

790
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 1: leader that they they treat with than who actually travels

791
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 1: with them for a couple of months and guides them

792
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 1: to the headwaters of the Red River. His name and

793
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: he's a real figure in history. He was known as

794
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 1: Cordero to the Spaniards, but his real name was Isumbanbi,

795
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: and in the Comanche language that meant handsome wolf. He

796
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: was a man of about fifty years of age. Whenever

797
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: Freeman and Custis would have gone into the southwest up

798
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: the Red River, and having him use a line which

799
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: I invented, but I don't think it's out of character

800
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: whatsoever for the Comanches. In these commanch she had men.

801
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: In particular, he tells Freeman and Custis, it's good for

802
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: you Americans that there are not there's not a continuation

803
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: of planes and buffalo and horses out in the direction

804
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: where you come from, because if there were, I fear

805
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: my people would overrun you. I mean, that's the way

806
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: the commands looked at the world. They did create an empire.

807
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: They were a utos tech and people that had come

808
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: to the Southwest only about one hundred years before this.

809
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: This is set in eighteen oak six, and they had

810
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: come to the Southwest because they regarded it as the

811
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: origin of horses, as horses were traded up the Rocky

812
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: Mountains to various tribes from the Utes, the ancestors of

813
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: the Comanches, who were in probably southwestern Wyoming northeastern Utah.

814
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: They were sort of Shoshonean like people and related to

815
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: the Shoshonees and Utes. But when they got horses, they

816
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: basically came south and they took the southern plains from

817
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: the Arkansas River all the way down to the Rio

818
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: Grande down to the Mexican border, basically took the country

819
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 1: away from the Apaches who had owned it for two

820
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: or three hundred years, and set up an empire that

821
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: traded horses that sort of raided Spanish ranches for cattle

822
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: and horses to trade to the Americans.

823
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: UH.

824
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: This was known as the Common Cero Trade. John Wayne

825
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: did a movie about it, in fact, and they were

826
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: a kind of uh, the analogy of the Lakotas from

827
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: the northern plains. The Comanches were that group on the

828
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: southern Plans and a major.

829
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 3: Power player at the same time that the United States

830
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,919
Speaker 3: and Spain are figuring out who's who's taking what out

831
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: there the comanches are are holding strong. I wonder there's

832
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 3: another there's another point here that you similar to the

833
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 3: first question I asked about Jefferson's expectations. But there's a

834
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: debate that that's raised in the course of this chapter.

835
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 3: I feel like whenever I'm reading historical fiction, I wonder

836
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 3: what's uh where, what's what has its heed in the

837
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 3: in the evidence base, and what is the invention of

838
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 3: the author. But there's a debate about the origins of

839
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 3: the planes, whether it's caused by iridity or whether it's

840
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 3: caused by fire, And I feel like most people today

841
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 3: have a sense of that right. But there's also the

842
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 3: you can't ignore the fact that native people used fire

843
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 3: all the time, and so you could understand how sort

844
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 3: of a new arrival to the planes might make that assumption.

845
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 3: But I wonder if you can just sort of speak

846
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 3: to where that where you pulled that from, and and

847
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 3: how Europeans or euro Americans arriving on the planes perhaps

848
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 3: imagined it's its natural history.

849
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another good question. And I think you know

850
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: one thing you have to sort of understand about the

851
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: character I tell this story through Peter Custis, who is

852
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: the he's the in effect, the naturalists on the expedition.

853
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: Thomas Freeman is an astronomer, so he's a scientist as well.

854
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: He's the one who's doing the maps in all but

855
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: Custis is the naturalists, and so he's interested in all

856
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: the things to do with because Jefferson has told them

857
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: in his instructions, I want you to pay particular attention

858
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: to everything you see new that's not in the maritime

859
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: states is Jefferson puts it in his instructions. And so

860
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: one of the things Custis is doing, of course, is

861
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,479
Speaker 1: that he's recording the presence of new animals that he's

862
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: seeing for the first time. I have him discover, you know,

863
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: at least evidence that there are jaguars in the southwest.

864
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: He gets the talons of a grizzly bearry he doesn't

865
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: see a grizzly bear, but he gets the talents, and

866
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: of course he sees mule deer and prong horns and

867
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 1: all these various creatures and plants. But one of the

868
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: things he's noticing as they're going west, and he comments

869
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: on it from the very beginning. He even does so

870
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: in the first episode that I devoted to the first

871
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: part of this story that as they go west, the

872
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: trees are getting shorter. The same tree species will continue

873
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: over a couple of one hundred miles, but as they

874
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: go west, the trees keep getting shorter and shorter, and

875
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: it's a gradient until he finally when he's there, close

876
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: to the headwaters of the Red River, approaching the edge

877
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: of the Yano Estacado Plateau and the canyon country they're

878
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: about to enter, he talks about, we're in oak trees

879
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: that are only knee high, and he had been traveling

880
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: through oak trees down the Red River that were one

881
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: hundred feet tall, and so he's wondering why this has happened,

882
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: and he's noticing that the same thing is happening with grass,

883
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,479
Speaker 1: and so it leads him to challenge what was then

884
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: the existing idea about how the Great Plains came to be,

885
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: And there were two competing ideas, and he had heard

886
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: both of them from William Dunbar back in Natchez, who,

887
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: along with Jefferson, was who had sort of outfitted the

888
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: expedition and told them what to look for and what

889
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: sort of topics to take up. Because Dunbar had said

890
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: there are two competing explanations for these plains, which course

891
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: Americans are just now seeing, haven't seen them before, and

892
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 1: here they're entering this holy new landscape of wide open

893
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: grasslands and Dunbar says. The two explanations are the plains

894
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: are the remnants of ancient lake beds, or they're caused

895
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 1: by fires burning across them all the time. And of

896
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: course I have them on the return trip they see

897
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: a fire burning, they see the planes burning. But Custus,

898
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: who is observed this gradient of diminishing height of various plants,

899
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: returns and says, I think maybe the explanation has to

900
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: do with the diminishing precipitation as you go west. So

901
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: I have him do kind of a first American take

902
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: on aridity as you go west against drier and drier,

903
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: and that's the effect it produces. And of course, people

904
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: living in the East, this is not a concept that

905
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: has ever occurred to them, So anyway, that's where that

906
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: came from. Cool.

907
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 3: Well, Dan, It's always fun to chat.

908
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was a fun one, Randall. I appreciate your questions.

909
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: Ye