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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's me Josh, and for this week's select,

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Speaker 1: I've chosen our twenty twenty two episode on Shakespeare and

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Speaker 1: whether he actually wrote all that stuff or if there

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Speaker 1: even was a Shakespeare. This episode is actually possibly my

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Speaker 1: favorite episode of all time because I knew nothing about

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Speaker 1: this and I learned a bunch of stuff, and I

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Speaker 1: found it really interesting and it was fun, really fun

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Speaker 1: to kind of turn around and explain.

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Speaker 2: It to all of you.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as

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Speaker 1: I always have every time I hear it about Shakespeare.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's

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Speaker 1: on the line. Jerry's here too, and we're about to

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Speaker 1: get jiggy with it about Shakespeare.

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Speaker 4: Can I have this out of the gate? I guess.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: The more we dug into this, you know, I was

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Speaker 3: an English major. We talked very briefly when I was

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Speaker 3: in college about Shakespeare's authorship, right, and I thought, Hey,

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Speaker 3: this would be a fun, little, semi easy episode. And

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Speaker 3: the more we dug into it, the more this onion unfolded.

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Speaker 3: It's onion, this bloomin Onion Unfolded Layer by Crispy Delicious Layer.

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Speaker 1: For all of our Australian listeners, that's what we think

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Speaker 1: you guys eat every night every night.

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Speaker 3: To the point where I was almost like, you know,

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Speaker 3: is this a two parters I mean, you could probably

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Speaker 3: do a ten part episode on this.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's so dense.

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Speaker 3: So I just want to caveat this for people that

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Speaker 3: know a lot about shakespeare authorship and saying this is

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Speaker 3: a pretty broad overview of the high points of his

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Speaker 3: authorship being questioned, because it is dense.

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Speaker 4: Baby.

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Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that like extremely intelligent people

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Speaker 1: take on as their like lifelong hobby.

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Speaker 2: It's like that we're.

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Speaker 4: Like, we'll just bust it out in a few days,

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Speaker 4: it'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like how some people are, like they

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Speaker 1: research World War II submarine warfare and know everything about it.

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Speaker 1: It's along the same lines, but it's even bigger. There's

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Speaker 1: so many people involved, and each side is like, you're

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Speaker 1: so naive to the other. And yes, it's true, like

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Speaker 1: we could turn this into a ten part series, but

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Speaker 1: I think we've got a handle on it enough to

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Speaker 1: present it. I feel in okay about it. And then

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Speaker 1: the other thing that sticks out for me, Chuck, is

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Speaker 1: this is one of the few things I've ever come

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Speaker 1: across like this that I am like truly agnostic about.

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Speaker 1: I do not have an opinion one way or the other.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if I do either.

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Speaker 1: Actually, Like, it's not like I don't care, that's not

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Like, I genuinely can see both sides.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing about it is, the more you

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Speaker 1: dig into it, the more you realize, oh, neither side

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Speaker 1: actually has really good evidence to support their claim. It's

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Speaker 1: all just they have to get so granular that it

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Speaker 1: really quickly goes into the world of conspiracy theories pretty quickly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I saw this video of a guy, this wonderful gentleman

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Speaker 3: who knows a lot about it, that said like, and

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Speaker 3: here's the golden bullet, which proves once and for all,

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Speaker 3: and he made his case, and I was like, no, No,

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Speaker 3: that didn't really prove it once and for all in

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Speaker 3: my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, because both sides do things like they

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Speaker 1: get into biographical readings where they're trying to find clues

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Speaker 1: within the text or you know, parallels to his life

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Speaker 1: for that kind of thing. And once that starts, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you guys, you've just completely left the world of objectivity.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So what we're talking about, if you haven't guessed by now,

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Speaker 3: is this idea that has been around since at least

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Speaker 3: the mid eighteen hundreds, maybe before, about the question of

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Speaker 3: whether or not William Shakespeare was the sole author of

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Speaker 3: all of his works.

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Speaker 4: And this is Shakespeare.

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Speaker 3: From Stratford on the Avon, like that gentleman that we know,

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Speaker 3: became an actor and you know, writer, whether or not

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Speaker 3: he was the sole author, whether or not he was

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Speaker 3: affront for some other authors for some of the works.

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Speaker 3: Some people say he didn't write any of them. Some

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Speaker 3: people said it was various women who weren't allowed to

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Speaker 3: write things at the time. I saw sixty six candidates

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Speaker 3: over the years have been put forward.

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Speaker 2: I saw eighty.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, so there you have it, somewhere between sixty

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Speaker 3: six and eighty something of I know, we haven't.

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Speaker 4: Been accused of writing any of Shakespeare's work.

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Speaker 1: Don't think so. I didn't come across that in my research.

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Speaker 3: But it's an interesting literary I don't even know if

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Speaker 3: I want to call it a mystery, because some people

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Speaker 3: just say, like, no, I mean of course you wrote it,

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Speaker 3: and he was these outsized personal the most famous of

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Speaker 3: the famous are conspiracies are drawn to them. Elvis is

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Speaker 3: still alive, Marilyn Monroe was murdered. Like that happens when

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Speaker 3: you are, you know, one of the biggest icons in

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Speaker 3: your field quite often. So some people say this just

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Speaker 3: that's all that it is.

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Speaker 1: In addition to that, there's a lack of biographical documentation

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Speaker 1: that he actually did write those plays. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that's also what allows for people to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: well do we really.

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Speaker 3: Know or that he didn't write them, Like there's just

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Speaker 3: it was a time, you know, in the fifteen hundreds

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Speaker 3: where there were in sixteen hundreds where there just wasn't

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Speaker 3: a ton of great preserved information.

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Speaker 4: And we're going to talk about a lot of that.

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Speaker 1: So we do know that William Shakespeare did live. He

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Speaker 1: was from, like you said, Stratford on Avon. It was

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Speaker 1: at the time, about a two to three day journey

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Speaker 1: from London, about one hundred something miles I think. And

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Speaker 1: he definitely did live. He definitely did exist. That's not

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Speaker 1: a question because we do have documentary evidence that this

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Speaker 1: person live from fifteen sixty four to sixteen sixteen, about

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Speaker 1: fifty two years and depending on when you place his birthday,

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Speaker 1: maybe fifty two years on the nose, so we know

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Speaker 1: he existed. Again, what's that issue. What's being questioned whether

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Speaker 1: that man William Shakespeare from Stratford on Avon, who went

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Speaker 1: on to become an actor, who went on to become

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Speaker 1: a producer, who worked with in the Globe theater, whether

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Speaker 1: he was the author of the plays we consider written

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Speaker 1: by Shakespeare. That's what's that question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like you said, he was a real dude.

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Speaker 3: He came from a family that was I mean I

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Speaker 3: kind of read it as a little bit middle class.

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Speaker 3: They certainly were not like upper class nobility types.

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Speaker 4: His father was a glover. He wore well, I guess

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Speaker 4: he wore gloves too, but he made gloves.

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Speaker 2: Allow me to demonstrate, it'd be.

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Speaker 3: Pretty weird if he didn't. That guy won't even wear

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Speaker 3: his own gloves. But he produced these very very fine

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Speaker 3: gloves for well to do people.

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Speaker 4: But he did achieve some.

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Speaker 3: I guess, worked his way up the social chain a

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Speaker 3: little bit because eventually he would serve as sort of

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Speaker 3: like a mayor in Stratford. And again, while not nobility

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Speaker 3: like they were fairly well regarded as people.

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Speaker 1: Right, So we don't know for certain, but there's a

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Speaker 1: pretty good there's a much better chance than not that

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Speaker 1: because of his father's position in town, because they had

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Speaker 1: some money, Like you said, they were middle class, he

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Speaker 1: almost certainly would have been educated at the grammar school

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Speaker 1: at Stratford. So what most people think is that William

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare was educated until about the age of thirteen, and

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Speaker 1: he would have learned things like Latin, he would have

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Speaker 1: learned history, he would have learned some classic literature. He

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Speaker 1: definitely would have been exposed to stuff that whoever wrote

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare's plays would go on to expound on. So he

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Speaker 1: definitely was I can't say that. That's the thing, Like,

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Speaker 1: you really have to be careful what you say about this.

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Speaker 1: I know I was about to say, so he definitely

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Speaker 1: was educated. We don't know that he was. This is

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Speaker 1: all just a supposition, but it's a pretty good bat.

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Speaker 1: It's a good supposition that he actually was educated.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and all this, you know.

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Speaker 3: The reason that's important is all of this kind of

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Speaker 3: comes back later, as some people say proof that he

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Speaker 3: may not have written this stuff, because like, how could

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Speaker 3: One of the main arguments used many times is how

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Speaker 3: could a kid who came from here have known about

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Speaker 3: these military exploits and the Elizabethan Court and all these

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Speaker 3: different languages and all this hyphalutin stuff that he wrote about.

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Speaker 3: So it's important to, you know, talk about his education.

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Speaker 3: And it seems like he was likely educated pretty well

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Speaker 3: until thirteen, which you know, I'm not even sure if

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Speaker 3: that's earlier or late as far as the time period

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Speaker 3: goes that. Do you know if that was like kind

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Speaker 3: of generally it for kids.

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Speaker 1: It was it was in the middle because he could

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Speaker 1: have just as easily not.

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Speaker 2: Been educated at all, right, of course, but he.

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Speaker 1: Also didn't go on to Cambridge or Oxford to extend

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Speaker 1: his studies, so he was in there in the middle.

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Speaker 1: They think he was probably educated, not highly educated, but

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Speaker 1: also not you know, uneducated.

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Speaker 2: That's that's the.

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Speaker 1: Key, and that if there was evidence he had not

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Speaker 1: gone to school, I think that the anti Shakespeare people

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Speaker 1: would have a real like mark in their favor. But

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Speaker 1: he has just enough education that you can make the

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Speaker 1: case like, no, like this guy, this guy learned about

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Speaker 1: this stuff already, and he could have known about it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when you add imagination and natural talent

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Speaker 1: you come up with Shakespeare conceivably.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he got married to Anne Hathaway. You know, go

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Speaker 3: ahead and insert an Hathaway joke there. You know she's

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Speaker 3: a real actor, right, sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, devil Waar's pro Princess Diaries. Yeah, big, I think

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Speaker 1: she was in Inception? No? No, was she Interstellar? Yes,

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Speaker 1: she did a stellar job in Interstellar.

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Speaker 2: Come on.

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Speaker 3: They got married when he was quite a bit younger.

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Speaker 3: She was twenty six, he was eighteen. She was pregnant,

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Speaker 3: which is probably a little unusual for the time. They

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Speaker 3: had a daughter named Susannah, and then had twins, a

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Speaker 3: boy and a girl twin, and the boy named Hamnet,

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Speaker 3: not Hamlet but Hamnett.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which apparently they've never turned up another use of

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Speaker 1: that name in at the time.

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Speaker 3: Proof he was eleven years old when he died, And

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Speaker 3: that kind of comes into play later on as well.

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Speaker 3: And then there's about a you know, from fifteen eighty

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Speaker 3: five to about fifteen ninety two, there's about a seven

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Speaker 3: year gap where we don't know a lot about what

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Speaker 3: was going on with Shakespeare, and then he pops up,

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Speaker 3: which a lot can happen in seven years. Again, not

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Speaker 3: trying to sway people, one way or the other. But

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Speaker 3: you can certainly learn a lot in seven years if

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Speaker 3: you have some big life experiences. But he pops up

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Speaker 3: in London in fifteen ninety two, again as far as

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Speaker 3: the record go goes, and you know, keep in mind,

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Speaker 3: a lot of this record before he was known in

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Speaker 3: his lifetime as an author, was you know, just kind

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Speaker 3: of not flimsy, but just not a lot of stuff

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Speaker 3: like various little lawsuits and mortgages and sort of banking

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Speaker 3: records and stuff like that, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And also I mean, like that's about as

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Speaker 1: much documentation as you would be able to come up

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Speaker 1: with on most people. And you can make a case

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Speaker 1: that there's more documentation on Shakespeare than most other people

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Speaker 1: who weren't nobility right of his era. That's because there's

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Speaker 1: been so much scholarship and study and research into his

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Speaker 1: life that they've turned up as much as they can.

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Speaker 1: But what they've turned up only amounts to about five

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Speaker 1: hundred different pieces of documentation of one form or another.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: So one of those pieces of documentation in early on

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Speaker 3: in London is a pamphlet written by generally believed to

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Speaker 3: be written by this guy named Robert Green. There were

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Speaker 3: some other people that could have possibly written it. But

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Speaker 3: it's called Green's groatsworth of wit. And there's a line

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Speaker 3: where he references Shakespeare in it in a contemporaneous fashion.

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Speaker 2: Is that right.

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Speaker 4: Where he kind of takes a shot out of him.

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Speaker 3: He says it talks about Shakespeare, says there's an upstart

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Speaker 3: crow in his own conceit the only shake scene in

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Speaker 3: a country, which kind of translates into he kind of

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Speaker 3: thinks he's the only Shakespeare like he thinks he's all that,

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Speaker 3: and it should be noted also as far as the

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Speaker 3: thievery that in Aesop's Fables, crows I would steal the

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Speaker 3: feathers of others. So the people in the I don't

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Speaker 3: want to say anti Shakespeare, but the people say that

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Speaker 3: he might not have written these things. Says this is

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Speaker 3: a big clue and saying that he might have stolen

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Speaker 3: some of these things. That's why he's referred to as

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Speaker 3: a crow by this other guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but in that that quote, he says, the upstart

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Speaker 1: crow is beautified with our feathers, and he's a playwright.

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Speaker 1: So the pro Shakespeare people, you call them the pro

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Speaker 1: Stratford group, they suggest that what he's what Green is

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Speaker 1: talking about, is he's he's poking fun at a common

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Speaker 1: actor who is deigning to even attempt to write plays,

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Speaker 1: which you know, among playwrights is far more important than acting.

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Speaker 1: Anybody can act, but it really takes something to write

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Speaker 1: a play, at least that's what they thought at the time,

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Speaker 1: and that he's taking a shot at him for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should point out that being an actor

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Speaker 3: back then and being a part of the theater was

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Speaker 3: not like it is today.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't some revered position.

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Speaker 3: It was sort of you know, body plays and common

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Speaker 3: people were into this kind of thing, so it wasn't

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Speaker 3: when he says he was just an actor.

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Speaker 4: That's a pretty big diss right.

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Speaker 1: So the last thing that we have, I guess the

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Speaker 1: last documentation, although there's other stuff that's been turned up.

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Speaker 1: They did archaeological expeditions on his house. I think his

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Speaker 1: house has been under ownership of a public trust since

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Speaker 1: like the nineteenth century, and they've carried out archaeological examinations

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Speaker 1: of it, and they found that he went back and

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Speaker 1: forth between London and Stratford, so they know stuff about

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Speaker 1: him like that. But as far as like documentation goes,

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Speaker 1: the last piece of documentation we have comes in sixteen sixteen,

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Speaker 1: which is his will that he wrote, and then a

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Speaker 1: few months later he died, and I guess the last

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Speaker 1: last piece of doc documentation is his tombstone, which in

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Speaker 1: and of itself is curious because his tombstone contains a

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Speaker 1: curse on it, but not his name.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, is that the one with the quote.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a curse. He's saying like, don't dig me

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Speaker 1: up or you're gonna be cursed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's his good friend for Jesus sake, forbear to

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Speaker 3: dig the dust and closed here. Blessed be the man

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Speaker 3: who spares these stones, and cursed be he who moves

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Speaker 3: my bones. Some people point to that as a poor

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Speaker 3: writing and saying, well, Shakespeare was a great writer, would

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Speaker 3: have written this kind of shabby curse, And other people say, like,

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Speaker 3: who said Shakespeare even wrote that?

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Speaker 4: Necessarily this is.

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Speaker 1: A good instructive example of like kind of the back

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Speaker 1: and forth between those people, Right, this is terrible writing.

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Speaker 1: Who said Shakespeare wrote it? And then the anti Shakespeare

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Speaker 1: crew says, well, of course he wrote it, because who

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Speaker 1: else would just not think to put his name on

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Speaker 1: his own tombstone? And the other ones just put their

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Speaker 1: head in their hands, just start crying, and it just

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Speaker 1: goes downhill from there. But that's a really good example

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Speaker 1: of like the just kind of like people will jump

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Speaker 1: on any single thing that they possibly can and often

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Speaker 1: interpret it one way or the other. So one thing,

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Speaker 1: one single thing, provides evidence for both sides.

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Speaker 2: It's that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: Another thing that people point to is the fact that

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Speaker 3: of you know, we don't have a lot of like

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Speaker 3: letters and papers and things like that because his family

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Speaker 3: line ended in sixteen seventy. I think he had a granddaughter,

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth Barnard, that died without that bearing children, so most

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Speaker 3: of his stuff basically lost as far as family possessions

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Speaker 3: and things like that. People do point to the will

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Speaker 3: at times and say, well, in his will, you know,

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Speaker 3: he leaves certain things, but like there's never any mention

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Speaker 3: of any manuscripts. And again this is all like it's

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Speaker 3: a little weird, maybe, but none of this is proof.

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Speaker 3: And you know, through the personal records that we do

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Speaker 3: have in those five hundred references, like none of them

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Speaker 3: really reference him like manuscripts in him writing things.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's what's most compelling to me is that when

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Speaker 1: you put together the documentation about his life that we know.

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Speaker 1: It's clear he's involved in the theater, he's an actor.

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Speaker 1: We get that. That's that comes through loud and clear.

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Speaker 1: What doesn't come through isn't documented at all is him

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Speaker 1: as a writer. And that that thing about the will,

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Speaker 1: the fact that if you look at the wills and

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Speaker 1: bequeathments of other writers of the time, you can find

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Speaker 1: evidence that.

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Speaker 2: They were writers.

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Speaker 1: They like leave books to other people that there they

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Speaker 1: leave unfinished manuscripts that stay in the family for generations,

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Speaker 1: and it is very curious. His will is very curious.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that his personal stuff was just lost

334
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Speaker 1: to history because his granddaughter was the end of the

335
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Speaker 1: family line, that actually holds up because other great authors

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Speaker 1: of say the same major of any age. A lot

337
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Speaker 1: of the reason that their personal effects and papers are

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Speaker 1: still around is because their family home was passed down

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Speaker 1: from generation to generation to generation, and there was a

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Speaker 1: long enough period of time for the importance of that

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Speaker 1: writer to become clear. And so other people came in

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Speaker 1: and said, can we have your great great great grandfather's

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Speaker 1: personal effects. We want to put them in this museum.

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Speaker 1: There's enough time. There wasn't enough time. There was only

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Speaker 1: seventy years between the death of Shakespeare and the end

346
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Speaker 1: of his family line, and he didn't become widely popular

347
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Speaker 1: until the I think middle of the eighteenth century, so

348
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Speaker 1: he was kind of a victim of that. And both

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Speaker 1: of those to me provide really good evidence for why

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Speaker 1: there is a documentation of his writing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely in the will.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, The Atlantic has a great, great,

353
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Speaker 3: pretty deep dive article as they do on this, which

354
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 3: provided a lot of the supplementary information that we got

355
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Speaker 3: by Elizabeth Winkler.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, betweenty nineteen great read.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that Winkler points out and other

358
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Speaker 3: people to point out on the will as well, is

359
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Speaker 3: like Shakespeare wrote a lot about music, and I think

360
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 3: there were three hundred musical terms, and all of his

361
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 3: plays mentioned of twenty six musical instruments. And like in

362
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 3: his will he didn't he didn't even have a loot

363
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 3: to pass down to anybody, and like you said, didn't

364
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Speaker 3: have books even like a library that he wanted to give.

365
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Speaker 3: And you know, again this is not proof necessary necessarily

366
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 3: of anything, but it's all of this stuff has added

367
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 3: up over the years too enough for people to arise

368
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 3: to like get suspicious about it.

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Speaker 1: I think exactly, you want to take a break, a breather.

370
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: I guess you could call.

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Speaker 3: It, Yeah, let's take a let's take a breather, let's

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Speaker 3: take five. One thing that Ed who helped us put

373
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 3: this together mentions that I wanted to get your take

374
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: on it. I didn't really think it had a whole

375
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 3: lot to do with it. One way or the other

376
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Speaker 3: was all of the various misspellings of Shakespeare's name over

377
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: the years. He would sign it in different ways, he

378
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 3: would abbreviate it in different ways. There are documents with

379
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 3: I mean, it looks like fifteen different ways of spelling Shakespeare,

380
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 3: everything from shacks with an ex peer to spears and

381
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 3: something you would jab somebody with. It's misspelled all over

382
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 3: the place. And I just kind of took that, as

383
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 3: you know, people misspelled things a.

384
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Speaker 4: Lot back then.

385
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Speaker 3: There weren't you know, there weren't necessarily records that you

386
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 3: could go look at very easily, so you might just

387
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 3: take a guess at how to spell a name, and

388
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: then it was on the record. And so I didn't

389
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 3: really think that factored in much, did you.

390
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,479
Speaker 2: I didn't.

391
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: And the impression I have is that all the different

392
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,239
Speaker 1: spellings are easily explained away from just the era, like

393
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: you just said, and that the people who clamp onto

394
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: that are actually looking into them just to find like hidden.

395
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 2: Writing and codes too.

396
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: Right, So I think like the different spellings of the

397
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: names is it's about Yeah, it's about as big a

398
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 1: boondoggle as you're gonna find in the in the Shakespeare

399
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: authorship argument, I think.

400
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 4: All right, so we'll cast that aside.

401
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 1: Well, hold on, before we do, I want to point

402
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,479
Speaker 1: out my favorite abbreviation.

403
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 3: Which one I think I let me look, I bet

404
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 3: you I know which one, But.

405
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: Go, okay, put it, put it back in the deck.

406
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's back in the deck.

407
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: Okay, it is Wilm shack p.

408
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a lot.

409
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 2: That's the one.

410
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 4: It stands out pretty blatantly. Sahakp.

411
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: I love it.

412
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 4: Sheck, Hello, Wilm sheck.

413
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: It's not a really good hotel check in name, but

414
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: it's still worth mentioning.

415
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 4: I think that's pretty good.

416
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 3: So, like we mentioned, sort of what's at the root

417
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 3: of a lot of these theories is what ed I

418
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 3: think rightly calls elitism, which is, how could this guy

419
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 3: even you know, educated up to thirteen, how could he

420
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 3: have known about all this stuff? How could he have

421
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 3: known about military exploits? And you know, if you read

422
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 3: Shakespeare's plays, which if you're an English major, you have

423
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 3: to read a lot of them, there's a lot going

424
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 3: on in these plays about a lot of different stuff.

425
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 3: He didn't write about just kind of one kind of thing.

426
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: So it implies like a really deep breadth of knowledge

427
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 3: about a lot of things.

428
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: And not just different things as it relates to England,

429
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: different things, as it relates to entirely different lands. Like

430
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: think about where a lot of his stuff takes places

431
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: in Italy, and as far as anyone knows, Shakespeare didn't

432
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: go to Italy. Although remember there's that lost year eight

433
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: year period they call him the Lost Years. It's entirely

434
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: possible he went to Italy during that time. It's also

435
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: just as possible that he didn't go to Italy during

436
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: that time. We just don't know. But that is something

437
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: that really stands out. And yes, there is a tremendous

438
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: amount of elitism and classicism among some of the anti

439
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: Shakespeare group, but I think that that is I think

440
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: that dismisses a lot of their points out of hand.

441
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: And they do have some really good points. They're not

442
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: just cranks and crack pots, Like they have some pretty

443
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: good evidence. You can make a case at least as

444
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: good to evidence that as the pro Shakespeare people. But

445
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: the upshot of it is really kind of a compliment.

446
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: They're saying, these plays are so good. Yeah, that Shakespeare's

447
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: arguably the greatest writer who ever lived. He has such

448
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: a crazy imagination, he's so funny, he has such an

449
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: extensive vocabulary, such an amazing grasp of the human condition.

450
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: Could it really all have been written by this man

451
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: from at the time the country, who was educated up

452
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: to thirteen, who came from the middle class, who may

453
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: or may not have ever traveled out of England? How

454
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: is that even possible? Are people born that gifted? That's

455
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: ultimately if you want to go beyond the classicism in

456
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: the elite totally. That's really what their argument boils down to.

457
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And if you don't know a lot

458
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: of Shakespeare, have never really read a lot yourself, and

459
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: you think like you're sort of in that camp, like

460
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 3: I mean, this is kind of overrated, like this guy, No,

461
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: these plays are brilliant and there's a reason why they

462
00:24:54,520 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: still make contemporary movies based on Shakespeare's plays or inspired

463
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: by Shakespeare's plays. It's because they were all genuinely brilliant.

464
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: It was great, great stuff. And what you need is

465
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: a really good teacher to kind of walk you through

466
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 3: it because it's it's tough to read. And we had

467
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: we had some good ones at Georgia, at University of Georgia.

468
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 4: I had one.

469
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: I can't remember his name. God, I can picture him

470
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: in my head. He was so great. Probably yeah someone No,

471
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 3: it was Wilmi shack Be shack Bee.

472
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: Oh, I wish I could remember his name.

473
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: I bet you someone will write in in the mid

474
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: nineties through the great play Harpsichord.

475
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: Oh well, no, I had a classics professor who played

476
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: a harpsichord.

477
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was you know, you had to take Shakespeare

478
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 3: one and two. Those were the only required English classes

479
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: as a as an English major, so that kind of

480
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: shows the importance. But what he did was he saddus

481
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 3: down and we read the plays out loud in class,

482
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 3: and after every you know, short bit, he would say, well,

483
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: here's what's going on, and here's what he's saying.

484
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: Yes, man, you were very lucky.

485
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and once once you hear that and you're like, oh,

486
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: these are very contemporary stories, and that's why they still

487
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: carry such weight today is because they were brilliant stories,

488
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: but stories that were very relatable even now. It's not

489
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 3: high falutin stuff, it's just it was written at a

490
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: time where it seems that way.

491
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because we don't really speak in you know,

492
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: Renaissance English anymore, so it seems it might as well

493
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: be Greek to us. But yeah, it was intended for

494
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: common audiences, like the average person would laugh or cry

495
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: at those at those plays. And I think also it

496
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: like really kind of supports your point that four hundred

497
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: years later, those plays can still make people today laugh

498
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: and cry like they still hold up. I guess what

499
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: you're saying. And have you ever heard of Sister Wendy. No,

500
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: she is, she's a nun. I don't believe she's still

501
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: with us. And I think in the nineties she made

502
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: this series of videos where she just went around to

503
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: music around the world and explained paintings to you in

504
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: a way that I would love to find a sister

505
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: Wendy of Shakespeare. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but

506
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: you could do a lot worse of killing several hours

507
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: watching Sister Wendy explain paintings because she was she had

508
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: like a natural gift at just not only understanding what

509
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: she was looking at, but explaining it really understandably.

510
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: I love that, and I think in Sister Wendy's case

511
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: and my professor Shackby, it's it.

512
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 4: It comes from a place of.

513
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: They have such great admiration and they want us, They

514
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: really want people to understand this stuff. You might ordinarily

515
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 3: go like, well, I don't get it. I don't get

516
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 3: paintings like this, or I don't get plays like this.

517
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 2: I art.

518
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 4: So should we get in speaking of art?

519
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: Great segue, should we get into this mess of the

520
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 3: bust of Shakespeare?

521
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

522
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: I mean it's another It's very much like his tombstone,

523
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 1: where people are like it means this, No, it means that,

524
00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: you know.

525
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

526
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: So there's a bust an effigy of Shakespeare inside the

527
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 3: church there in Stratford. And there's been a lot of

528
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: controversy over this thing because part of it is not

529
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: necessarily like was he the author, although it does play

530
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: into that, but sort of like what did he look like?

531
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: And how do we know that's what he looked like?

532
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 3: Like we've all seen the picture and there's like this

533
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: one painting and this one bust, and that's kind of

534
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: where everything comes from. And some people say this was

535
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 3: done after he was dead, like, we really don't know

536
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: that that's what he looked like. I think just a

537
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: couple of years ago, this professor and expert made a

538
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: pretty good case that beyond most reasonable doubt that it

539
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: was actually done. I think she said it was highly likely.

540
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 3: Professor Orlan said it's highly likely that it was done

541
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: while he was alive, and that he commissioned it because

542
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: she thinks she knows who did the bust, and that

543
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: that person lived near him and was irregular at the

544
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: globe and.

545
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: Kind of put all these clues together.

546
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: But other people, some people say it was his dad

547
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: and not him because of this whole sack of grain argument.

548
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there there was an etching that was made

549
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: of the bust within some period of time after the

550
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: bust was erected, but before it was altered. So the

551
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: bus has definitely been altered. And it looks like one

552
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: way you can interpret this, this thing at the bottom,

553
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: this puffy things that's at the hands of the bust,

554
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: the effigy as a sack of grain. I don't know

555
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: if it were a sack of green, why anyone would

556
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: ever present it in that position.

557
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense.

558
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: And so right, so what the anti Shakespeare, anti Stratford

559
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: people are saying is like, yeah, it's his dad, it's

560
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: it's not him, or if it is Shakespeare, he was

561
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: known for his grain carrying skills, not his writing skills.

562
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: And the pro strap for people are like, don't be ridiculou.

563
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: This is obviously a pillow, and at some point somebody

564
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 1: did revise the bus, so it is unequivocally a pillow,

565
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: like there's just no way to mistake it. And it's

566
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: not so much a pillow as it is like a

567
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: handrest for him to write on, because he's got a

568
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: piece of paper on it and a quill in his

569
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: other hand. But the anti Shakespeare people jump on that

570
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: and say, like, see it was altered to fit this

571
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: to cover up this conspiracy later.

572
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: On, Yeah, exactly, And that quill has been stolen and

573
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: replaced I think so many times over the years that

574
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: now I don't know if it currently has the quill

575
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: or if it has the quill, and it's now behind glass.

576
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: Oh, that could that's a good way to get around

577
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: as sure.

578
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure, but you know, that became a

579
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: you know, obviously it's something you could just snatch of

580
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: his hand, and you've got Shakespeare's quill on your on

581
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 3: your door.

582
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: Speaking of being snatched.

583
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: Apparently that curse on his tombston didn't work because they

584
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: did a scan of it on the four hundred thing

585
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: versary of his death and found that at least his

586
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: skull was missing, if not all of his remains. Oh

587
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: really yeah, and that interesting. So somebody out there has

588
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: Shakespeare's skull in their personal collection.

589
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: It's probably Rosenkrantz or Guildenstern. I like, great Shakespeare joke.

590
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: That's good.

591
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 4: There's some people out there that were, like, nailed it.

592
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: Good.

593
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 3: Another thing, as far as evidence goes, is the first folio,

594
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: which is I think it was the first collection that

595
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: they put in print of all of Shakespeare's plays, including

596
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: eighteen that had never been in print before.

597
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: And there was a I guess was it?

598
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: A forward written by a guy named Ben Johnson who

599
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: was a rival of Shakespeare's. He was kind of known

600
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: as a jealous, sort of argumentative guy. But he calls

601
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: Shakespeare the Swan of Avon and is sort of very

602
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 3: laudatory in this forward, but I think you found stuff

603
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: later on where he was kind of like, m I

604
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: had my fingers cross the whole.

605
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: Time kind of yeah.

606
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: So the pro Stratford people who believe Shakespeare or Shakespeare say, look, man,

607
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: this guy was known as a rival, a friendly rival,

608
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: but a real rival, really critical, like, had biting criticism

609
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: and sense of humor, and also was not one to

610
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: just be like.

611
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: To just bow to nobility or privilege or wealth or status.

612
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: Right, So if this guy is saying that Shakespeare the

613
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: Swan of Avon, which places this man at Stratford on Avon,

614
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: because Ben Johnson is calling him that, that proves that

615
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Shakespeare was Shakespeare. The anti Shakespeare camp says, like you said,

616
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: Ben Johnson at his fingers crossed the whole time, and

617
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: that really what he was doing was providing cover for

618
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: this larger, essentially conspiracy of people who actually were Shakespeare,

619
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: was blending his renown to it.

620
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: Neither one really makes sense.

621
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: I mean, unless Ben Johnson had like a complete change

622
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: of heart, it just doesn't quite add up. But then

623
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: also the idea that he would provide that cover for

624
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: a group of noble people and seems unlikely as well too.

625
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.

626
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 3: One of the first public doubters in the eighteen hundreds

627
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: was a woman named Delia Bacon, no relation to Francis Bacon,

628
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: although you may think so, because one person that Delia

629
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: Bacon put forward as one of the authors was Francis Bacon.

630
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 3: Delia Bacon was an American, was a writer, had a

631
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: sort of a long life before she got into kind

632
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: of hating Shakespeare, Yeah, hating him, like really didn't like

633
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: Shakespeare and really wanted to prove that he was not

634
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 3: the author. And her idea was that it was Francis Bacon,

635
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 3: Walter Raleigh, and I think maybe some other people too,

636
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 3: who were these very well regarded people of you know,

637
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: philosophy and politics and science, who would not have been

638
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: allowed to put forth these plays. And what these plays,

639
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 3: what they really were, were not even meant for entertainment

640
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: or for the stage. They were meant to be sort

641
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: of biting criticisms of all kinds of various things that

642
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: these gentlemen could not put their name on.

643
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's yeah, either they couldn't put their name

644
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: on it because they would be executed as basically treason

645
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: as to the crown, because they were, you know, putting

646
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: forth the idea of social reform and you know, women's

647
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: rights and all sorts of stuff, taking potshots at the nobility.

648
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: Or there's another theory called the stigma of print that

649
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: was introduced in I think the eighteen seventies, and that

650
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: was that they just just out of noble nobility nobless,

651
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: I guess they wouldn't deign to have their stuff published.

652
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: It would erode their social reputation, even accepting the idea

653
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: that they would be beheaded for treason. So there are

654
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons that somebody like Francis Bacon would

655
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: have to cover up his identity if he were actually Shakespeare.

656
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 1: And that same stigma of print and political cover argument

657
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: gets extended to other people beyond Bacon too.

658
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that, you know, it makes a little bit

659
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 3: of sense. As far as Delia Bacon, she was able

660
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: to talk Ralph Waldo Emerson into basically kind of buying

661
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: her story and he arranged for her sponsorship basically to

662
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: go to England to kind of research this. Apparently in

663
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: England she was kind of on record saying that she

664
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: didn't research history books or records and things like that.

665
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: She believed that the the proof was sort of in

666
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: the plays themselves, yeah, and in the in the text basically,

667
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: like with these clues. Apparently, she used to go to

668
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: Shakespeare's tomb a lot and and kind of just you know,

669
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: hang out there and like try to convince the I

670
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: guess the tomb keeper or whoever you know takes care

671
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: of the cemetery, the crypt keeper.

672
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, the crypt keeper.

673
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: I didn't want to say it to be let in,

674
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: and like almost got in at one point apparently, but

675
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: I think she got sick and couldn't. And but she

676
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: thought that the you know, the deep secret was within

677
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 3: that tomb.

678
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she kind of kicked off the nuttier camp of

679
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: the questioning of of Shakespeare. In addition to kicking off

680
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: the whole thing. She she put like kind of a

681
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: nutty sheen to it, like the idea that you could

682
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: get your answers just from reading the plays, right, the

683
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: clues were in there. The thing is is Francis Bacon

684
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: was known to amuse himself by including you know, hidden

685
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: codes and messages in his writings. So if it was

686
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: Francis Bacon, that's not that much of a stretch, and

687
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: supposedly Mark Twain and some friends did actually turn up.

688
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: If you read the first folio, there is I guess

689
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 1: some series of lines that spell out Francisco BACONO.

690
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 4: It's pretty good.

691
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: I mean, here's the thing, though, Francis Bacon wrote a

692
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: lot about a lot of stuff, but not a lot

693
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 3: of fiction and pros or didn't he write no evidence

694
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 3: that he ever wrote any kind of plays, did he?

695
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 4: Right?

696
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: There was this other thing that kind of came along.

697
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: So Delia Bacon is widely regarded as the person who

698
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: kicked off that it was Shakespeare Shakespeare idea, But supposedly

699
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: there was a person who came before her, James Wilmot,

700
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: who in seventeen eighty one sat down to write a

701
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: biography of Shakespeare and did all the research in London

702
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: and Stratford, on ava on and was astonished by the

703
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: lack of documentation that Shakespeare had written those plays and

704
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: started to suspect it and that he kicked it off.

705
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: The thing is, the.

706
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: Anti Shakespeare side has been accused of making those documents up,

707
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: of forging those documents to support Delia Bacon's Francis Bacon theory.

708
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah, so they weren't discovered until nineteen thirty one,

709
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: which is pretty convenient, and it's entirely possible that they

710
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: were just forged.

711
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: All right, should we take another break here? Yeah's all right,

712
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: we'll take another break. We'll talk a little bit more

713
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: about whether Shakespeare wrote that stuff.

714
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: So one more thing about Delia Bacon before we wrap

715
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: it up. Like you said, she was a good writer,

716
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 1: and her exhaustive examination of the texts of Shakespeare's plays

717
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: resulted in a six hundred and twenty page book, The

718
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: Philosophy of the Plays of Shakespeare Unfolded, and she's often

719
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: credited with basically prefiguring, if not kicking off, the idea

720
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: of literary criticism of close readings of stuff to find

721
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: other meanings. And she was doing it to expose noble

722
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: people as Shakespeare.

723
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: But she was really good at.

724
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: It, and people said, well, hey, maybe we should do

725
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: this for other stuff too.

726
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like ironically, because she kind of I mean,

727
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: you know, the various tawdry accounts say she was driven

728
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: to madness. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but

729
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: it did seem like it pretty much consumed her in

730
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 3: the latter stages of her life and that her family

731
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: was kind of embarrassed and stuff like that.

732
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: Right, So Francis Bacon was not the only person put

733
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: forth and there's probably, as far as like believers go,

734
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: somebody who at least rivals, if not eclipses him, and

735
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: that would be the seventeenth Earl of Oxford, Edward de

736
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: Vere Right.

737
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a whole there's a whole camp

738
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 3: and a whole other and you know, we can't get

739
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: into this too too much in detail, but there's a

740
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: whole movement that says out of the eighty people like

741
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: we really think it was the seventeenth Earl of Oxford.

742
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called the Oxfordian theory of Shakespearean authorship, and

743
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: there is, you.

744
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: Know, some stuff to it.

745
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: He was a poet, which Ed points out that's so

746
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: much for the stigma of print, and that also you

747
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: can compare his poetry and in like some specific works

748
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: of poetry to some of Shakespeare's poetry and see some

749
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: real comparisons. But as far as I can tell that

750
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: the questions are the similarities and there, if I'm not mistaken,

751
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: like and that to me, it was the sixth Earl

752
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: of Derby who has a little more, a little more

753
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: to offer.

754
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: Oh really, Oh no, it was about Derby.

755
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,479
Speaker 2: There was one other thing. So Derby has his own group,

756
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 2: the Derbyites.

757
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 4: Right, this is what I mean. It's an onion. It's

758
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 4: a bloomin onion.

759
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: So there was one other thing about Devere that is

760
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: pretty suspicious. There were two narrative poems that Shakespeare dedicated

761
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: to a man who was raised in the same household

762
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: as Devere. And from what anybody could tell, there's no

763
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: reason Shakespeare would know this person, and why would Shakespeare

764
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: dedicate to poems.

765
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 2: So this this.

766
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: Nobleman he didn't know, but Devere certainly knew him. He

767
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: was he was basically raised alongside him like a brother.

768
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 1: So that, along with the biographical reading, the close reading

769
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: looking for parallels between Devere's life and Shakespeare's plays, are

770
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: what kind of back up the Oxfordian.

771
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: Theories interesting because Christopher Marlowe is another one who was

772
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 3: a contemporary and friend of Shakespeare's, and they collaborated and

773
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 3: they influenced one another, and this the details around Marlowe's

774
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 3: death are hinky enough to where some people thought or

775
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 3: at least that you know, the conspiracy is that is

776
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 3: that he faked his death because he was going to

777
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: going to be executed by the crown and continued to

778
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: write and then used his friend Billy Shakespeare as affront

779
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: to continue to get those plays out. I'm not really

780
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 3: sure about this because I don't know that's that's just

781
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: a little far fetched.

782
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: If you ask me, well, yeah, if and if you're

783
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: if you're supposing that Marlow faked his death in order

784
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: to continue writing, you've now got a conspiracy theory wrapped

785
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: in a conspiracy theory.

786
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe that's what.

787
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's interesting because you know, Marlow is a

788
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: pretty interesting dude in himself. Supposedly he may have been

789
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: a secret agent for the crown.

790
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: He was an.

791
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: Atheist, he was his own playwright. People loved him as

792
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: a playwright at the time, but he was no Shakespeare.

793
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: Like literally, he's probably the flimsiest person you could attribute

794
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: Shakespeare's writings to because Marlow was gloomy and super atheist

795
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: and he was. His plays just didn't have that same

796
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: kind of humanism and funniness that Shakespeare's plays had. And also,

797
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: why wouldn't Marlow just write these plays under his own name?

798
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: He had no reason to write these plays under different names.

799
00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed.

800
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: There have been people that put forth the idea that

801
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: there were several different women that might have been the

802
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: real authors, because women were not allowed to write plays

803
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,959
Speaker 3: at the time. Eighty percent of the plays written during

804
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 3: this time were anonymous and no author was listed, and

805
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 3: a lot of people said, hey, a lot of these

806
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: were written by women and they just couldn't put their

807
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 3: name on it. Many of Shakespeare's plays and ideas are

808
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 3: very progressive. It's kind of a kind of a I

809
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: don't know about flimsy, but it kind of demeans Shakespeare

810
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: a bit to say that, like, well, it had to

811
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: be a woman because they were so progressive about women

812
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: like taking a stand, when in fact Shakespeare seemingly very

813
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: much thought that way himself, right, Like, how.

814
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: Could a man write women like this?

815
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 3: Come on, Yeah, there's a woman named Mary Sidmund Herbert

816
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: who has a whole foundation that's trying to prove that

817
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 3: she wrote. Kind of the word of the Internet happened

818
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 3: about seven years ago. When you get these memes that

819
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: are just full of false stuff and then everyone starts

820
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: spreading them around. Oh yeah, there was a meme in

821
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen went all over social media that just had

822
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: the picture of this black woman and said, this is

823
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: Amelia Bassano. She really wrote Shakespeare's stuff. She was not

824
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: allowed to be a published author because she was a

825
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 3: black woman at a time where she was suppressed and

826
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 3: all this stuff. None of this stuff was true. First

827
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: of all, she was maybe Moroccan. She was definitely not

828
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 3: of African descent.

829
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: Oh. I saw she was Venetian.

830
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: I saw that she was Moroccan and had some Italian

831
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: in her, so that okay, yeah, it makes a little sense.

832
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 3: But she was definitely not of African descent. She was

833
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 3: a published author, so the whole notion that she wasn't

834
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 3: allowed to publish things wasn't right. She was kind of

835
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 3: a well known poet.

836
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 4: I think at the time.

837
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: So this kind of I think gets passed along the

838
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: internet and then you know, half the people that see

839
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 3: had to say, oh, well, look at that Shakespeare was

840
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: all written by this lady back then.

841
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, problem solved, And that's just not how it works.

842
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: One of the other things I saw that, and I

843
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: think the people who are like Shakespeare is a woman

844
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: are like, well, okay, if we're starting to question Shakespeare's authorship,

845
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: we can't ignore this whole group of people who had

846
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: every reason to hide their identity as authors of these

847
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: plays because they were women and they weren't for sure

848
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: to do this kind of stuff. So there was a

849
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: critic who in fifteen ninety three wrote of a who

850
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: praised a gentle woman who was writing some amazing plays

851
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: and sonnets. And this was the year after Shakespeare pops

852
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: back up after his lost years and when he was

853
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: starting to write. But that the critics said he didn't

854
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: want to reveal who it was because he didn't want

855
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: to basically get her in trouble. So that's what some

856
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: other people kind of look at and say, See, Shakespeare.

857
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 2: Was a woman.

858
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think think, I think this theory

859
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: makes a lot more sense than a lot of the others.

860
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: You know, just by this year fact that women would

861
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: not have been allowed to So maybe Shakespeare was progressive

862
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 3: and decided to be affront for these great works.

863
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: But it reveals a point about being an anti Shakespeare

864
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: anti I guess Stratford person is you have to part

865
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,959
Speaker 1: of is you have to explain why somebody would want

866
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: to fake authorship, would want to hide behind Shakespeare's name.

867
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you call that a motive.

868
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got means, motive, and opportunity. You put those

869
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: three together, you got your Shakespeare.

870
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 4: Well that's what I mean about the maybe women wrote them.

871
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: I mean there was definite motive.

872
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: There, right exactly. So there was one other thing that happened.

873
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of stuff happened over the course

874
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 1: of this hundred almost two hundred years now of questioning

875
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: Shakespeare's authorship. Back in nineteen eighty seven, Ox forty and

876
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: Charlton Augburn got the at least three sitting Supreme Court

877
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: justices John Paul Stevens, William Brennan and Harry Blackman to

878
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: hold a mock trial to determine if Shakespeare actually was

879
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: the author of Shakespeare's plays, and they did on Sea Span.

880
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: They had they held like a trial and heard the evidence,

881
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: and Shakespeare had his own attorney arguing for him, and

882
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: it was pretty interesting. But they it went two to one,

883
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: I think, in favor of Shakespeare from Stratford as the author.

884
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 3: But they did like real research and stuff. It wasn't

885
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 3: just like a you know, yeah stunt.

886
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: No, so the Supreme Court justices were kind of taking

887
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: its tongue in cheek. But I got the impression that

888
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: Charlton Augburn was like, yes, finally going to prove it

889
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: definitively one way or another, and it didn't even fall

890
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: in his favor. Interesting, Yeah, it is interesting what people

891
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: did in the eighties on Sea Span.

892
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: I got a few more little things here from that

893
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 3: Atlantic article that point to his authorship as being genuine.

894
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 3: One is that he had a narrative poem called Venus

895
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 3: and Adonis that was a very popular poem at the

896
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 3: time that was put in print, and it was printed

897
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: by a gentleman named Richard Field, who apparently went to

898
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: school with him at Stratford.

899
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 4: So that's a pretty good little hint.

900
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 3: He was written about at the time, so it's not

901
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 3: like he was never known until his death and then

902
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 3: all of a sudden became super popular, Like he died

903
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 3: a rich man and was written about by literary critics

904
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: at the time and entertainment and play critics. So there

905
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 3: were contemporaneous criticisms of his writing while he was still living,

906
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 3: which is a pretty, you know, pretty big clue that

907
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: he probably wrote this stuff, although it is not proof.

908
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: No, because those people could be they went and saw

909
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: a play by Shakes, They doesn't mean that they met

910
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: Shakespeare and talked to Shakespeare about the authorship of the place.

911
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 4: And leaned over his shoulder while he wrote it proof.

912
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: The other last thing that I saw in that Atlantic

913
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 3: article this is the one or actually this.

914
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: Was a this was the golden bullet from that video?

915
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 4: Was it okay?

916
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: Was?

917
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: Shakespeare was apparently concerned that his dad's reputation sort of

918
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 3: in the family's reputation, suffered later in life because of

919
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: financial problems that his dad had, and he really wanted

920
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: to kind of restore their name and get a coat

921
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 3: of arms made, which is you could you know, it's

922
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: like you could be a true gentleman if you had

923
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 3: a coat of arms. And apparently it's a really long process.

924
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 3: They don't just hand him out to anybody. You got

925
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 3: to have a certain level of achievement to get a

926
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 3: coat of arms. So he went through this big, long

927
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 3: process and had he went on Barry Linden on there,

928
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: Oh man, what a movie. He had a couple of

929
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: different men in the Harold's office who defended Shakespeare's right

930
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 3: to have a coat of arms because other people were saying,

931
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: who is this guy? Even like he came from not

932
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 3: much and he shouldn't have a coat of arms. And

933
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 3: one of the guys who defended him was a man

934
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: named William Camden, who this guy in the video referred

935
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: to as.

936
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 4: One of the most learned men in all of England.

937
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

938
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 3: He was actually Ben Johnson's schoolmaster and apparently just knew

939
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 3: everything happening on the literary scene inside and out. And

940
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 3: in one of his books he was called the Remains

941
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 3: of a Greater History. He talks about all the great

942
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 3: writers of the time and he lists William Shakespeare of

943
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 3: Avon in that book.

944
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 4: So he said, that's the golden bullet again. If it's

945
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 4: just a front, it's still no real proof of authorship.

946
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: No it's not. I mean like this guy could just

947
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: be playing along, lending his.

948
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 4: Or didn't notable weight.

949
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another one too.

950
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: Like that's the thing, like the anti Stratfordians have caused

951
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: the pros at Fordian's to actually defend their position, and

952
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: in doing so it's kind of revealed that both of

953
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: them are kind of on shaky ground. It's almost just

954
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: a matter of belief. Do you want to believe that

955
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 1: one man was that brilliant and that talented and gifted,

956
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: or do you can. You just not believe that. It

957
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: just doesn't make any sense to you. So it was

958
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 1: a cabal of noble people who were trying to advance

959
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: political reform and hiding behind William Shakespeare, paying them off

960
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: with maybe family crests and money and fame right to

961
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: let them use his name as their you know, the playwright.

962
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. They also say, like where he was from. There

963
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 3: was some regional slang that was very specific to where

964
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: he was from that was used. There was in Taming

965
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 3: of the Shrew he mentions these Latin phrases that are

966
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 3: in specifically from a Latin book that apparently was known

967
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 3: to have been used at his school, at his grammar

968
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 3: school in Stratford. So again there's all these little hints

969
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,479
Speaker 3: and clues. All of it kind of gave me a headache, right,

970
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 3: and I was like, can we just like love these plays?

971
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: Right?

972
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: Exactly? That's exactly right. It's the ultimate point. Let's just

973
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: love the plays.

974
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 4: People take it serious about this though, Yeah, they definitely do.

975
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty interesting and I mean I get

976
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: it kind of fun to watch from the outside too. Yeah,

977
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: you got anything else?

978
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 4: No, we could go on all day, but totally we'd

979
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 4: never get anywhere.

980
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: There's like ten things I'm leaving on the table, so

981
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: we just got to keep moving on, right, all right,

982
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: Let's keep on keeping on, Chuck. If you want to

983
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: know more about Shakespeare and authorship, there is a giant,

984
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: gaping rabbit hole. You can jump down on the internet

985
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: and say cionara to.

986
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: All of your other pursuits.

987
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: And since I said cyonara, it's time for listener mail.

988
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 3: I'm gonna call this just came in over the wire.

989
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 3: I thought it was kind of funny from our friends.

990
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 3: Steven in Kagoshima, Japan, in about eating about eating squid,

991
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 3: says love the show fellas reason not to be so

992
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 3: touchy though about eating squid, they are child murdering sea vermin,

993
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 3: he said. The reason squid die after they mate is

994
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 3: a survival adaptation, because if not, they would eat the

995
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 3: eggs and newly hatched squid from themselves and other squid

996
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 3: in the spawning areas. Squidly diddley is an infanticidal maniac

997
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 3: and should be cooked and eaten, albeit sustainably, of course.

998
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: So that's the argument, is that.

999
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 3: These squids deserve to be eaten because they would be

1000
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 3: eating themselves if not for this adaptation. So he also says,

1001
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 3: tell Josh not to eat uncooked squid.

1002
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 4: That is not great.

1003
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 3: All right, and kind regards from Stephen in Kagoshima, Japan,

1004
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 3: a squid haven and a squid ink pasta destination.

1005
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: Stephen, that was a really great eye opening email. I

1006
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: may have seen the light. I'm not sure yet. I'll

1007
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: have to get back to you. Okay, okay, thank you

1008
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: for responding to that, Stephen. Sure, if you want to

1009
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: be like Steven and get in touch with us and

1010
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: send us a potentially eye opening email, you.

1011
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 2: Can do that.

1012
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 1: Send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

1013
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 4: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1014
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 4: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1015
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.