Speaker 1: Hello, back to the heads. This is Jamie Loftis, this
Speaker 1: is Caitlyn Durante. So this is an episode that we
Speaker 1: recorded shortly before the lockdown began. So we didn't put
Speaker 1: anyone in danger. No, we didn't, just so you know,
Speaker 1: it was still allowed. Back then two weeks ago, UM
Speaker 1: with the wonderful returning guest Sita Geng about Mulan because
Speaker 1: originally Mulan was going to be coming out right, uh
Speaker 1: that obviously it is no longer the case, or if
Speaker 1: it's released, it won't be in theaters because what our
Speaker 1: theaters really anymore? Um, But we just wanted to say hello, yes,
Speaker 1: and that we hope you're doing well. I hope you're
Speaker 1: feeling well and staying inside if you can, and if
Speaker 1: you do have to be out working, we are with
Speaker 1: you and we hope we could be a nice part
Speaker 1: of your day and that we love you all. So
Speaker 1: as to be expected, I'm sure this will come as
Speaker 1: a surprise to no one, but the upcoming live shows
Speaker 1: that we had scheduled, um at least the ones in
Speaker 1: Austin and Boston. The Austin one we had announced and
Speaker 1: sold tickets for sold out. We unfortunately had to cancel
Speaker 1: that and everyone will be refunded. M We are still
Speaker 1: waiting to hear about l a On, so we'll see.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned. UM. In the meantime, if you need extra
Speaker 1: Bechtel in your life, our Matreon is there for you
Speaker 1: with extra episodes. We know a lot of people have
Speaker 1: been burning through a lot of episodes quickly, UM, and
Speaker 1: we have plans in April to do some commentary tracks
Speaker 1: for you to watch while you're at home. Audio commentary
Speaker 1: April baby. Uh. In the meantime, please enjoy this episode
Speaker 1: and Moulan enjoy. On the dodcast, the questions asked if
Speaker 1: movies have women and are all their discussions boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy and best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hi, everybody,
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, where do what? I
Speaker 1: was trying to think of a fun in Oh. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just excited for this episode. Hi everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Backdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,
Speaker 1: my name is Caitlin drown Today, and this is our
Speaker 1: podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Uh where
Speaker 1: we use the beck Dol test. I've heard of it
Speaker 1: to jump off, have a jumping off point, and then
Speaker 1: we you know, just do it deeper dive, not the
Speaker 1: whole podcast common misconception. I love when someone's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've listened to your podcast, which, first of all, there's
Speaker 1: never a need to lie about that. I've never been
Speaker 1: less hurt like when someone's like, I haven't listened to
Speaker 1: your podcast and makes sense, you know, like why would
Speaker 1: you listen to a podcast to shame our audience? Use
Speaker 1: silly sods. But like when someone's kind of faking it
Speaker 1: and then they're they're like, oh, that's the one where
Speaker 1: you spend an hour and a half figuring out if
Speaker 1: it passes the backtel, I'm like, do you think we
Speaker 1: just print out the script? And I like, M, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It looks like that's a male character, so
Speaker 1: is not going to pass on to the next live
Speaker 1: we should do in April Fool's episode, that is just that,
Speaker 1: like us going through the script of the Shawshank Redemption
Speaker 1: and just doing what like people who are lying about
Speaker 1: listening to the show, I think it is. Anyways, this
Speaker 1: is the bet. We use the Bechdel test, which is
Speaker 1: a metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the
Speaker 1: back Doel Wallace test that requires that a piece of
Speaker 1: media have an exchange between two female identifying characters with
Speaker 1: names that is about something other than a man. Should
Speaker 1: be easy enough, especially for this movie. Right, Well, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know topic. It's kind of the no, well,
Speaker 1: it's complicated sometimes that's the thing, not a perfect metric.
Speaker 1: But also we just have a lot to talk about today.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for today. This episode has benny long
Speaker 1: time coming. We were going to do it a while ago,
Speaker 1: and then we found out that there was a live
Speaker 1: action reboot of this movie coming out, and then we
Speaker 1: had to postpone doing this episode by like a year,
Speaker 1: which has been a painful way but the way here
Speaker 1: we are. We were talking about Mulan finally finally, Yes,
Speaker 1: the day has come Um and yeah we have we
Speaker 1: there's so much ground to cover. So without much further ado,
Speaker 1: let's introduce our guest. Um. She is a writer, a comedian. Um.
Speaker 1: She's been a guest of ours previously on the Crazy
Speaker 1: Rich Asians episode, and she's also made a contribution on
Speaker 1: our Gremlins episode, which we were all very grateful for
Speaker 1: and She's amazing. It's Seedi seng Hi. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me back, coming back so excited to talk about Mula,
Speaker 1: which was one of the first jokes I ever wrote.
Speaker 1: We actually about Mulan, really was. I had this bit
Speaker 1: that I was, you know, I recently booked the job.
Speaker 1: I got a role in the live action rem a Mulan,
Speaker 1: And people in the audience would clap, because sometimes you
Speaker 1: go to an audience that actually doesn't know you're joking,
Speaker 1: so it's very sweet when they do. They're like lapping,
Speaker 1: And then I would say, well, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: playing Mushu because it's always been my dream to play
Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy. So yeah, I guess they're they've brought back
Speaker 1: Mushu for the live action remake, but not not Eddie.
Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy is not voicing it. But I just saw
Speaker 1: an IMDb thing where Mushu, but I don't know if
Speaker 1: Mushoe talks, I don't know. Well, maybe my information is wrong,
Speaker 1: but I just today watched uh one of those like
Speaker 1: IMDb dot com originals where they like do a little
Speaker 1: they're all all all bangers, but they're like people were
Speaker 1: wondering would Mulan's Animal Friends return for the live action reboot,
Speaker 1: and no one knew for sure, but it seems like
Speaker 1: Mush at least Mush. I don't know about the cricket.
Speaker 1: What does he what does he look like? Is it
Speaker 1: like one of those like scary like lion king, like
Speaker 1: photo realistic, Like I mean, he's a real Komodo dragon.
Speaker 1: You're like, that's not why I come to the movie,
Speaker 1: but it would be so weird based on what I've
Speaker 1: seen in the trailers, which seems like a like for
Speaker 1: a Disney movie. It's like a gritty action the first PG. Thirteen,
Speaker 1: the yeah of the first because I guess that they're
Speaker 1: they're like they're doing some real warship in there. Huh.
Speaker 1: So again, Mulan is making some like serious like I
Speaker 1: guess it's called bushoo ushoo fantasy kind of moves, so
Speaker 1: lots of wire work that's really like body intensive. It
Speaker 1: should be incredible to see. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, is Mulan the first Disney princess
Speaker 1: who presumably kills people? We don't see her rack up
Speaker 1: a body count in the cartoon, but I feel like
Speaker 1: it's implied that she would have killed the main bag guy, right,
Speaker 1: she lit him out somewhe she kills some well also,
Speaker 1: I mean she crushes a lot of people with that
Speaker 1: avalanche at A lot of people are in the aval
Speaker 1: but they also seen to mostly come back and survive that.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about how the how
Speaker 1: the enemies on this in this war are portrayed, which
Speaker 1: is like super racist, yes, like I mean we have
Speaker 1: so so much because there they're like, oh, like people
Speaker 1: who are on the opposite side of the war evil.
Speaker 1: We're going to draw them darker than the rest of
Speaker 1: the cast and their zombies and they have like animal eyes, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the dark Like it's the way that it looks
Speaker 1: like the beast in Beauty and like they yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a crazy way to regard like the Humes, which is
Speaker 1: like the stand in for the the invaders of China
Speaker 1: at this time. But it's it's so funny because he's
Speaker 1: got like fanes too, literally from the dead, and you're like,
Speaker 1: this is not human And this was the first time
Speaker 1: watching this movie that I love, but like there are
Speaker 1: some things where you're like, wait a second, I don't
Speaker 1: know what this war is about. What if Mulan is
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the war, like, we don't
Speaker 1: know what if they're fighting over don't don't trying to
Speaker 1: like uprise against like a very like totalitarian empire. We
Speaker 1: don't know, they don't and they don't tell us. They're
Speaker 1: just like, well, we love Mulan, so she probably on
Speaker 1: the right side of the work. But you're like, we don't,
Speaker 1: we don't. That's actually guarantee war is fucked up? Did
Speaker 1: you in this official stadium perhaps glorifies war a bit. Yes,
Speaker 1: that said, it's also a cartoon. Does that make it better?
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's another Disney movie that deals with war, like
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Lion King in a sense, like
Speaker 1: the skirmishes with Uncle Scar kind of warl that is
Speaker 1: because it's like different, but it's so isolated, such a
Speaker 1: small battle. No, this is like, this is historical. There's
Speaker 1: an actual war that happens. There's people that are divided politically,
Speaker 1: and then there's the sort of the duty to the country,
Speaker 1: which is like what Mulan really stand for, right, Like,
Speaker 1: there are some like nationalism undertime duty to the I mean,
Speaker 1: which I don't know. I'm like I don't even know
Speaker 1: how to feel about that, but but it ended up
Speaker 1: the military stuff in this You're just like, whoa there,
Speaker 1: it's just very And I was thinking about that because
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of writing about the reboot and
Speaker 1: about their like, well, is this movie like being to
Speaker 1: you know, over the top with like funded by military
Speaker 1: stuff and like nationalism stuff, And it's like that may
Speaker 1: be true in some ways, but it's like most Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, so many popular American movies are funded by
Speaker 1: the military that I feel like it's disingenuous to be
Speaker 1: like the entire Transformers is funded by the fucking Marines.
Speaker 1: Like it's so true. We talked about this in Independence
Speaker 1: Day with Lindsay Ellis, But like there's this like such
Speaker 1: a well documented history of like people who have a
Speaker 1: good relationship with the military get tanks to use in
Speaker 1: their movies, and their movies make a billion dollars and
Speaker 1: you're just like, I don't military industrial complexes is Oh boy,
Speaker 1: is it not good? Quote me on that, so let
Speaker 1: me get the full camouflage military industrial complex. I know
Speaker 1: we went into this being like maybe it's good, but
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you it's actually very bad. I mean,
Speaker 1: the part of the military sequence I found interesting was
Speaker 1: like how whimsical the army training was. That was like,
Speaker 1: that's definitely like a place in a Disney movie where
Speaker 1: that should happen, because in most war movies the training
Speaker 1: is definitely not whimsical. This is just like a giant
Speaker 1: pole which belts around your way. And then also question,
Speaker 1: is Leshan like the only male love interest that takes
Speaker 1: off his shirt and a Disney movie, Well, Aladdin is
Speaker 1: pretty shirt like is pretty, but but he's his nipples
Speaker 1: are covered. That's true. S his body is very Suddenly
Speaker 1: You're like it's right there, right. And then I went
Speaker 1: back to my like I was like five when this
Speaker 1: movie came out. I was just like, oh wow, like
Speaker 1: just like your weird little like baby brain being like
Speaker 1: this is different like this yeah, I I mean I
Speaker 1: remembered when that scene happened. I mean, um, well, let's
Speaker 1: dive in officially with we're gonna talk about the military
Speaker 1: industrial complex, but we've hardly begun. Um, ste what's your
Speaker 1: relationship history with this movie? So I was talking to
Speaker 1: Caitlin a little bit earlier, and I kind of missed
Speaker 1: the boat on this movie. When I was growing up
Speaker 1: because I got a little too old for Milan when
Speaker 1: it first came out, so I actually didn't watch it
Speaker 1: until I turned like thirty, and so I came to
Speaker 1: its super late wash it when I was thirty so
Speaker 1: moved by it totally cried after like a first viewing
Speaker 1: as an adult, I was like, oh, wow, the you know,
Speaker 1: a story about the headstrown only daughter of a Chinese family,
Speaker 1: I can't possibly relate to that. It was very It
Speaker 1: was very like I should have known that this was coming,
Speaker 1: and I still was not prepared for how much it
Speaker 1: moved me. Um, and I watched this again just like
Speaker 1: right before the podcast is to refresh my brain and
Speaker 1: the details. And it's still a very, very action packed
Speaker 1: story that has a lot to do with how the
Speaker 1: protagonist is self motivated, and I think that is something
Speaker 1: that like we love to see in female characters. And
Speaker 1: she's just so she's so smart and has her own
Speaker 1: morality and she has such conviction and that's really like
Speaker 1: what gets her through all of the movie, really, and
Speaker 1: I love that turn at the end where she has
Speaker 1: to dress as a concubine so she successfully passes as
Speaker 1: a woman. There's a lot of like drag king stuff
Speaker 1: in the beginning, which I really love, and there's like
Speaker 1: kind of drag queen stuff towards me, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is such kind of a drag eccentric movie. There's
Speaker 1: a lot like yeah, I mean the gender performance, like
Speaker 1: the female gender performance in this movie, it's like it's
Speaker 1: kind of fucking incredible, Like it is really yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: talking more about it, there's well, we will, we definitely will.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much to talk. I mean, I
Speaker 1: because there are certain elements. I just have never watched
Speaker 1: this movie in not uh like I love Mulan lens.
Speaker 1: That's the only way I've ever watched this movie is like,
Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite movies ever. This movie
Speaker 1: came out when I was five years old, and I
Speaker 1: don't remember seeing it for the first time, but I
Speaker 1: know that I saw it like five hundred times. We
Speaker 1: did a whole Mulan Halloween and my family that, Um,
Speaker 1: I checked the pictures. I'm like, Okay, we were not racist,
Speaker 1: because you have to check when you're a white kid,
Speaker 1: you have to be like, did my parents do a
Speaker 1: good job. I think that they're a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: I'll show you the picture, but but I should be
Speaker 1: the front page of the podcast this week for the record,
Speaker 1: because you gotta be careful. But yeah, like I was,
Speaker 1: I loved it so much. I love just everything about it.
Speaker 1: The Stevie one of the most cursed Disney musical collaborations
Speaker 1: in history, between Stevie Wonder and ninety eight degrees Credits.
Speaker 1: I was like, what is happening? I was ranking. I
Speaker 1: was like, I think it's the second most cursed collab.
Speaker 1: I love it, but it's the only more cursed collab
Speaker 1: of the Disney Renaissance is in Sync and Phil Collins.
Speaker 1: That's the worst one. True to your heart kind of slaps.
Speaker 1: It's good, but you're just like, how did these don
Speaker 1: did these people meet each other? It was that like Tarzan. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned this before, but in my favorite
Speaker 1: press junket of all time, which is in Sync with
Speaker 1: Phil Collins, and and it's like peak in Sync, it's
Speaker 1: nine in Sync, Like Lance Bass is like, yeah, Phil
Speaker 1: Collins is pretty much the sixth member of in Sync.
Speaker 1: I wonder how Genesis feels about that. College is just
Speaker 1: grimacing or you're just like, this is the greatest thing
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. All I have to say I loved
Speaker 1: Mulan at the time. I feel like it was the
Speaker 1: first genuinely empowered Disney princess I had ever seen. It
Speaker 1: was because there is like some nineties girl power elements
Speaker 1: to this, but it really hit for me. Um. My
Speaker 1: cousin was Warrior Mulan. I was Reflection Mulan, and my
Speaker 1: brother was Shi. You were super deep. We were. It
Speaker 1: was a whole family like we were just like we're
Speaker 1: a Mulan, We're Mulan heads. So I love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's your history with it, um Cita. I'm like you
Speaker 1: where I had aged out of kind of Disney movies
Speaker 1: and I joke about having aged back into them because
Speaker 1: I'm going to see Onward tomorrow. Um. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: was twelve in this movie came out, so I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm too cool for cartoons. So it just like came
Speaker 1: out at the wrong time for me, I guess, and
Speaker 1: I and so I didn't grow up with it, and
Speaker 1: I think I only saw it maybe once or twice,
Speaker 1: just sort of in passing, not paying that much attention
Speaker 1: to it in my like kind of more adolescent or
Speaker 1: early adult years. And then I've watched it three times
Speaker 1: now to prep for the episode because I'm like, shit,
Speaker 1: like I hate that I missed this when I was younger,
Speaker 1: because like it's so good, like it's I yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's there's plenty to talk about, but I love
Speaker 1: so much about it. I love the songs, I love
Speaker 1: the music, and I love there's like these all these
Speaker 1: great montages. This is the first viewing that I I
Speaker 1: think because I haven't seen this movie in like six
Speaker 1: or seven years. I think this is the first time
Speaker 1: I've seen it since I have become a beady once
Speaker 1: Wong stand I didn't realize he was. I didn't. I
Speaker 1: don't think I knew who he was the last time
Speaker 1: I saw this movie like in high school, and like
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, what, like so much good stuff.
Speaker 1: There's so much and yeah, I mean you were touching
Speaker 1: on just the character of Mulan, just like being so
Speaker 1: smart and rustful and outspoken, and like, yeah, it gives
Speaker 1: us a lot to talk about. It's also I think
Speaker 1: for for girls that weren't like kind of girly girls,
Speaker 1: like it has that rezomie like um the reflection Mulan
Speaker 1: song that's very much about like trying to figure out
Speaker 1: who you're supposed to be in this world that tells
Speaker 1: you that you're supposed to be one way, but you
Speaker 1: feel a totally different way, and that kind of plays
Speaker 1: into the gender performance of it. But but that's soon
Speaker 1: also probably, Like I was thinking about Mulan as a
Speaker 1: whole for for young women. I was like, this is
Speaker 1: a very good movie to also watch if you're like
Speaker 1: a female comic amongst a lot of male comics where
Speaker 1: you're like or is she's trying to fit into the army?
Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, I felt that we're like
Speaker 1: everything is disgusting, but you just have to like go
Speaker 1: along to be like, yeah, this is great and people
Speaker 1: are still like we hate you. Like cool. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was just talking about how we were getting ready for
Speaker 1: this episode today in a room with um two gay
Speaker 1: men and they were both like reflection and like spoke
Speaker 1: to me so much when I was a kid, of Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, because it is such like a general theme
Speaker 1: for people who feel like they don't fit into what
Speaker 1: the prescribed norm is, where like it's it's And then
Speaker 1: I did some research of I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: wonder if this is a common read and it seems
Speaker 1: like there's like a fair amount of writing from queer
Speaker 1: and trans writers who are like Reflection was like it
Speaker 1: I easily see that. There's that line where she says, like,
Speaker 1: when will my reflection show who I am inside? I mean,
Speaker 1: And I think we've heard a similar read in The
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid where like arials, transformation, Um, yeah, like feeling
Speaker 1: like you're in the wrong skin, and a friend of
Speaker 1: the cast, John Ford, spoke to that a bit, yes,
Speaker 1: So I mean, I feel like that's always a cool
Speaker 1: There's plenty of criticism of like huge pop culture Disney movies,
Speaker 1: but the fact that like there are those big themes
Speaker 1: that they can speak to that make kids who feel
Speaker 1: out of place feel heard is really cool. And there
Speaker 1: are such massive movies too, basically everyone sees them. So
Speaker 1: it's not just like, oh, this is a message that
Speaker 1: like a few people see. It's like, this is a
Speaker 1: message like across a generation can see that. That does difference.
Speaker 1: That really does. IM one of my closest friends from
Speaker 1: high school. She immigrated from Haiti around the time this
Speaker 1: movie came out, and it was one of the first
Speaker 1: movies she saw in America, and she was like so
Speaker 1: impacted by it that she majored in Chinese in college,
Speaker 1: she's a fluent and she works in international relationship. Now
Speaker 1: she I'm like Mulan, Like, people love Mulan. It changed
Speaker 1: a lot um, all right, So I'll do the recap
Speaker 1: and then we'll get into the discussion. We open we're
Speaker 1: in ancient China. There's an attack un invasion led by
Speaker 1: the big scary chan you, and the emperor is like,
Speaker 1: this will not stand. We got to recruit people from
Speaker 1: my army to fight these invaders. Then we meet Mulan.
Speaker 1: She is prepared, kind of cheer good. She is preparing
Speaker 1: to go to the village matchmaker because her family wants
Speaker 1: her to be matched with a good husband so that
Speaker 1: Mulan can bring honor to the family, because that's how
Speaker 1: a woman in the world of this movie brings honor
Speaker 1: to her family. We meet the mom, we meet her mom,
Speaker 1: and we're like, oh, I wonder if this relationship will
Speaker 1: be explored, and then it's like no, and they're like, funny,
Speaker 1: Grandma Trope. I'm like, okay, it's kind of funny. And
Speaker 1: then her meeting with the matchmaker goes disastrously and she
Speaker 1: tells Mulan that you will never bring honor to your family,
Speaker 1: and that's when Mulan sings reflection about how you know,
Speaker 1: maybe being a bride is not the part she's supposed
Speaker 1: to play. Then the army recruiters show up, and one
Speaker 1: of them is this guy, Chief Wu, and he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: the Emperor is ordering one man from every family to
Speaker 1: serve in the Imperial Army. And Mulan's father is prepared
Speaker 1: to serve. But Mulan thinks that he should not have
Speaker 1: to fight. I think it's implied that he was already
Speaker 1: um a warrior in a previous and he and he
Speaker 1: was injured and he like walks with a cane and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So she's like, he should not have
Speaker 1: to fight, so she decides to take his place. Um.
Speaker 1: She cuts off her hair, she dons her father's armor
Speaker 1: to disguise herself as a man, and then rides off
Speaker 1: into the night. And her family discovers that she has left,
Speaker 1: but they realize that if they reveal what she's done,
Speaker 1: she will be killed. Um, so they can't go to
Speaker 1: stop her. Meanwhile, and then Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy shuts up. Um.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of high jinks and mishaps here, but
Speaker 1: basically he's like, all right, I'm gonna go watch over
Speaker 1: and help Mulan. I feel like he's just kind of
Speaker 1: warming up for Shrek this whole movie. Like he literally
Speaker 1: is just like maybe I could make a billion dollars
Speaker 1: off of doing this. He's just warming up for Donkey
Speaker 1: and never forget Shrek. Never forget Shrek, never forget Okay. So,
Speaker 1: with the help of Mushu and Mulan's lucky cricket, she
Speaker 1: goes off to join the army. And meanwhile, a young
Speaker 1: soldier named Shang voiced by Beati Wong and the singing
Speaker 1: voice is Donny Osmond. By the way, I know the
Speaker 1: masked singer himself. He came in second place the first season.
Speaker 1: Um uh. He is made captain of this army. And
Speaker 1: I didn't catch this at first, but it's like a
Speaker 1: nepotism thing higher basically where his father is the general.
Speaker 1: I didn't either. I don't know why. When I was
Speaker 1: a kid, I'm like, I don't know if I was
Speaker 1: just I was so hyper focused on, like I love Mulan,
Speaker 1: but I never realized that Lee Seng was nepotism and
Speaker 1: that he was grieving for like half because his father
Speaker 1: dies I totally forgot that. I thought that scene where
Speaker 1: he sticks the sword down, puts his dad's helmet on top,
Speaker 1: and Mulan sees him grief. I was like, that's a moment.
Speaker 1: She was like, panties are wet a man didn't exactly
Speaker 1: on the battlefield right after his father's deaths were just
Speaker 1: like we're all there. She's seen him his shirtless and
Speaker 1: then you're like, you're like, yeah, yeah, inappropriate, but you
Speaker 1: you get the sentiment. And then that's like, I think,
Speaker 1: a great moment in terms of like showing how like
Speaker 1: I mean, they don't go all the way with masculinity
Speaker 1: in this movie and kind of examining it, but the
Speaker 1: way that you know, he has to to maintain his
Speaker 1: role of authority compartmentalized like enormous grief totally. And then
Speaker 1: he gets on his horse and he's like it's fine,
Speaker 1: and everyone's like, oh, it isn't. And then they have
Speaker 1: to you know, war war indeed today in addition to
Speaker 1: other things. Yes, um okay. So he has made captain
Speaker 1: and he begins training this group of recruits that Mulan
Speaker 1: has joined, and she says, hey, guys, yes, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: a man and my name is Ping, but Mulan as
Speaker 1: Ping kind of gets off on the wrong foot accidentally
Speaker 1: with a lot of the other soldiers um but eventually
Speaker 1: she wins them over and they become friends, and the
Speaker 1: training begins and Mulan is not good at anything. She
Speaker 1: almost gets sent home, but then there's that fun training
Speaker 1: montage and we see her get really good at everything
Speaker 1: and one of the greatest songs in Disney history. It's
Speaker 1: so and I didn't like in that long Slapper montage
Speaker 1: you see the Mary Jane trope entirely like done away
Speaker 1: with because it was it would be like, I feel
Speaker 1: like a classic Disney steak to be like, and she
Speaker 1: got to war and she just was good at war.
Speaker 1: But it's like you see that she learns it and
Speaker 1: really like commits to it, and so do the men
Speaker 1: around her, and it's like it's a struggle for everyone
Speaker 1: and it's like goofy, but at least you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: at least they're showing like it's not it's not that
Speaker 1: Mary Sue like chosen one kind of narrative, like she
Speaker 1: really rested her asked to be a great soldier. We
Speaker 1: see that in Aladdin with Jasmine where she's like awesome
Speaker 1: at like flipping over across buildings and she's like, I'm
Speaker 1: a fast learner and she's like yeah, it's like you've
Speaker 1: never left your palace, Like how are you right? You're
Speaker 1: just like you've never left any Yeah there, when would
Speaker 1: you have practiced that? That's a really good point because
Speaker 1: I was reading about the legend, and in the Chinese
Speaker 1: legend she actually learned martial arts and sword fighting and
Speaker 1: everything from her dad. But if you had gone that
Speaker 1: route with the story, you would have been not able
Speaker 1: to have the training montage because I think what's what's
Speaker 1: so great about the trade being montage, in addition to
Speaker 1: the sun and everything, is that it's the camaraderie with
Speaker 1: her friends. That's that's what builds like an army, right,
Speaker 1: Like speaking of the military industrial commers, one of the
Speaker 1: many reasons that so many men are so what it
Speaker 1: imponded to it is the commonality of experience of going
Speaker 1: through war training. Yeah. Yeah, and like seeing that, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I like that they not only managed to
Speaker 1: show that, but they may as you show it, and
Speaker 1: maybe the most entertaining way history of war movies, I know,
Speaker 1: because like compared this training montage to like the boot
Speaker 1: camp sequence in Full Metal Jacket, and you're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: these are totally very different, like we know which one
Speaker 1: is more realistic, but which one has fun um Okay.
Speaker 1: So then she goes through the montage. She gets really
Speaker 1: good at everything. She's the only one who can figure
Speaker 1: out how to get to the top of the poll
Speaker 1: to retrieve the arrow that Shang had fired. She's st
Speaker 1: smart um and by the end she's at the top
Speaker 1: of her class, so to speak. Um. Meanwhile, the Hun
Speaker 1: army is advancing and Mulan and her fellow soldiers are
Speaker 1: sent to fight. They come upon Shan You and his
Speaker 1: giant army of Hans who start to advance on them,
Speaker 1: and they're about to aim a canon at Shan You,
Speaker 1: but Mulan is like, no, I have a better idea,
Speaker 1: and she aims it at the mountain, which causes that
Speaker 1: huge avalanche that berries Shanu's army, and everyone's like hip hip,
Speaker 1: hooray for Ping. But Mulan as Ping has been wounded,
Speaker 1: and when her wound is tended to, that's when everyone
Speaker 1: discovers that she is a woman. And in one of
Speaker 1: the rewatching it goofy ist music stings I've ever heard of,
Speaker 1: Like when comes in Oh, when Lesian comes into the
Speaker 1: tent and Mulan is revealed to have titties, there's a
Speaker 1: sinister titty sting where it goes like it goes like Dune, Dune,
Speaker 1: and it's like she has t and then everyone's like, like,
Speaker 1: it's so weird at least soapy in the middle of
Speaker 1: this great movie. But I like rewound. I was like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, they did that. There is a sinister
Speaker 1: like I guess that that like if you're but you're like,
Speaker 1: that's a little on the nose, but yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: she has t. Well, when it's revealed that she is
Speaker 1: a woman, um, they're like, this is treason and the
Speaker 1: penalty was supposed to be death, but because she saved Shang,
Speaker 1: he spares her life. Because of that awarding male mediocrity,
Speaker 1: I have to date this man because he didn't murder me.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem fair. So instead they just abandoned her
Speaker 1: and she feels as though she's a failure and she's
Speaker 1: about to turn and go back home. But this is
Speaker 1: also when she sees Chanyu's army rise up from the avalanche,
Speaker 1: like the snow and she realizes she has to go
Speaker 1: worn the army, so she does this. She arrives in
Speaker 1: the city. No one will listen to her because she's
Speaker 1: a woman and these men do not, and they view
Speaker 1: her as a trader. They're having a parade for her work,
Speaker 1: but yes, they're they're taking credit for It's in fury.
Speaker 1: She's like, She's like, the Huns are about to kill you,
Speaker 1: and they're like, go away, shut up. Yeah, while they're
Speaker 1: like spending however much money, literally taking credit for her work,
Speaker 1: and it's like, what a beautiful parade that she cannot
Speaker 1: get through and then she gets no credit for It's
Speaker 1: like it's a celebration of her accomplishment that she has
Speaker 1: to overcome because yeah, so so rude, um so. And
Speaker 1: then during this victory celebration, the Huns attack and kidnaped
Speaker 1: the emperor, but Milan and her friends fight back and
Speaker 1: dressed in drag while doing it um to trick the Huns. Yes,
Speaker 1: they saved the emperor and Mulan kills Shan you and
Speaker 1: the emperor is like, wow, Mulan, you're so cool. Here's
Speaker 1: a spot on my council and she's like, no, I'm good.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm gonna go home to my family. She returns home,
Speaker 1: her family realizes, oh, you have brought us great honor,
Speaker 1: um for being a war hero. And then Shang shows
Speaker 1: up and he's like, oh, you're cute. I just realized.
Speaker 1: This is where like in retrospect you're just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not crazy, and I'm not I'm not happy about
Speaker 1: the ending, but and that's so let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And
Speaker 1: we're back. Yes, um so, because we just finished Caitlin's
Speaker 1: famous recap, I think that on rewatch Um, the ending
Speaker 1: is one of the parts of the movie that holds
Speaker 1: up the least well for me, Um because I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, at the climax of the movie, the whole
Speaker 1: country bows to her. I'm like weeping. It's the most cathartic, amazing,
Speaker 1: Like this woman who has been through this intense sacrifice
Speaker 1: and like she's done so much and she's finally like
Speaker 1: just getting credit for what she did. It's so just
Speaker 1: like you don't get to see that a lot, especially
Speaker 1: in the kids movie, and and then to see what
Speaker 1: the like where that leads to is I feel like
Speaker 1: you see this whole movie of Mulan kicking open this
Speaker 1: door that was not open for women, and then the
Speaker 1: movie ends with that door just kind of shutting behind
Speaker 1: her because the and and especially bothers me and the
Speaker 1: way that they wrote that scene between her and the emperor,
Speaker 1: and then how the Emperor talks to Lei Shang about
Speaker 1: her after she leaves, which he basically is just saying
Speaker 1: she's not like the other girls. It doesn't make him
Speaker 1: reconsider should women be given more opportunities? Should women be
Speaker 1: allowed to be in the military. He's like, you don't
Speaker 1: mean a girl like that every dynasty wink wink, And
Speaker 1: it's just like totally missing the point of what the
Speaker 1: movie seem to have such a great understanding of. And
Speaker 1: they're just like, oh, like, yeah, women can do stuff
Speaker 1: as long as they're like this woman. And even even
Speaker 1: she is just sent back home to domesticity and a
Speaker 1: boyfriend and she has to be okay with that, right,
Speaker 1: like to be fair. That is how the legend also
Speaker 1: kind of ends, and legend ends so much worse. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like but it's like it's and I feel like a
Speaker 1: movie that does so much more than most movies made
Speaker 1: for young girls do, Like they could have taken some
Speaker 1: artistic license there and could have given her a life
Speaker 1: that didn't have to just do it. And she has
Speaker 1: a boyfriend now and that and the end right, and
Speaker 1: I have complicated feelings about this because like the Emperor
Speaker 1: is like, hey, you're so great that I want to
Speaker 1: offer you a position on my counsel. He's like giving
Speaker 1: her this, this position of power, and she refuses to
Speaker 1: do that. She's like, I'd rather go home and be
Speaker 1: with my family, and that's her choice. But also the
Speaker 1: movie makes her make that choice, and like they don't
Speaker 1: need to do that. I don't know, it just felt weird,
Speaker 1: and I was glad that at least it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: she was offered an opportunity, but that almost makes it
Speaker 1: feel weirder to me. Of like her whole like the
Speaker 1: Disney Renaissance model, of like the heroine at the beginning
Speaker 1: sings about what she wants and it's to be like
Speaker 1: seen for being different and that's okay, and then at
Speaker 1: the end she just decides to be the same. Like
Speaker 1: that that doesn't even feel consistent with the character. All
Speaker 1: of those two those two points are really good consistent
Speaker 1: with the way that this movie portrays Mulan. I think
Speaker 1: maybe what they were trying to do is hard come
Speaker 1: back to the myth, which has Mula and being like,
Speaker 1: I love my family so much and war is going
Speaker 1: to come between my family, and I have to stop
Speaker 1: the war so that I can be with my family,
Speaker 1: And I don't think the movie does that very well.
Speaker 1: I think the movie focuses more on her individuating herself,
Speaker 1: improving herself, and so it is distinctly disappointing at the
Speaker 1: end when she reverts when she gets I mean Lesha
Speaker 1: and is a boyfriend, which is great, but like, that's
Speaker 1: not that doesn't feel like where we've been led. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that also was never her goal, Like it didn't
Speaker 1: we weren't led to believe that she she The movie
Speaker 1: starts with her outright not wanting a relationship in any way,
Speaker 1: to the point where she's like really frustrated that it's
Speaker 1: being forced a p and so I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: I feel like, at least it's like, you know, she's
Speaker 1: choosing her partner, and that is different from what is
Speaker 1: being presented to her at the beginning. But it just
Speaker 1: feels like a not a fair compromise for the character
Speaker 1: that we've I don't know. And it's weird because it's
Speaker 1: like when I was a kid and when I was
Speaker 1: watching this movie growing up, I never really thought of
Speaker 1: it that way, but watching it now, I was it
Speaker 1: was It's not like I mean, it's still an incredible movie,
Speaker 1: but I was kind of like, I feel like Mulan
Speaker 1: would want more. I don't know, and well, what's your
Speaker 1: ideal ending? How would you want to see her end up?
Speaker 1: My ending? Okay, I was trying. I was trying to
Speaker 1: think about this. I if she ends up with Leashing, great,
Speaker 1: but I feel like if her and Lea Shang they
Speaker 1: worked together maybe and like she's proven herself to be
Speaker 1: this incredible soldier and maybe they could work alongside each
Speaker 1: other as and which I mean that's probably not historically feasible,
Speaker 1: but it's a Disney movie. Like I'd like to see
Speaker 1: her go on and like in my head, I'm like
Speaker 1: flash forward to Mulan training young girls in like physical combat,
Speaker 1: Like that's badass, even if it's in her hometown and
Speaker 1: her dad's there and he's like, I'm so proud, and
Speaker 1: her mom is like I wish I was a character
Speaker 1: and I wi had in her life, right, but it's
Speaker 1: like Mulan training young girls and maybe she's home with
Speaker 1: her family, but it's like something of like has something
Speaker 1: that's more than what she was rebelling against at the beginning,
Speaker 1: right mind, when my version of the ending would be
Speaker 1: if she accepts that position on the Emperor's Council. Again,
Speaker 1: assuming it's he's not like, you know, an evil dictator.
Speaker 1: We don't know of this dynasty, but we're not sure,
Speaker 1: so hopefully, you know, he's very progressive. He's you know
Speaker 1: that he like more women on the council and right exactly,
Speaker 1: I mean hopefully that's why he offers on the job.
Speaker 1: But she accepts the position, she moves her family to
Speaker 1: like the Imperial City so she can still be with
Speaker 1: her family. But you know, she's got this powerful position
Speaker 1: in politics and stuff like that. And you know, if
Speaker 1: she ends up with Shang, fine, but for the movie
Speaker 1: to end that way where like he shows up and
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, I just realize you're hot. That just
Speaker 1: feels so tacked on, especially because like what you were
Speaker 1: saying where right around the low point of the movie
Speaker 1: screenwriting degree, I had to mention it. But um, she
Speaker 1: has this whole in realization where she's like, oh, I, UM,
Speaker 1: maybe I didn't do this for my father, because that's
Speaker 1: what seems like her motivation is initially where she's like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to save my father's life, and I think
Speaker 1: that's probably still part of why she makes that choice,
Speaker 1: but she realizes like, maybe I didn't do this for
Speaker 1: my father. Maybe I what I really wanted was to
Speaker 1: prove that I could do things right, like, because we
Speaker 1: see her failing so miserably at like being what's expected
Speaker 1: of her as like a traditional woman and a bride.
Speaker 1: So she's like, but here's something I think I could
Speaker 1: be good at, and it turns out she is, and
Speaker 1: it ends up I feel like those themes end up
Speaker 1: kind of fighting with each other a little bit, where
Speaker 1: they just like by subscribing kind of strictly to the
Speaker 1: like mythic mulan that has existed in culture for thousands
Speaker 1: of years and then also adding in these nineties themes,
Speaker 1: but the nineties themes don't really pay off in the
Speaker 1: way that it's written, um, and they kind of just
Speaker 1: they're like, well it we have basically this ending, so
Speaker 1: let's just keep it. But it is like she has
Speaker 1: that line where she literally like maybe I wanted to
Speaker 1: do things right, maybe I wanted to look in the
Speaker 1: mirror and see someone worthwhile. And that's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: she articulates that herself, and I feel like that desire
Speaker 1: is maybe paid off a little bit in the fact that,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to bowse to her, she gets credit
Speaker 1: and she gets validation. But to think that that is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well I'm done, I'm self actualized, and now I can
Speaker 1: just be a wife just doesn't It feels like it
Speaker 1: undoes a lot of what had been set up. I
Speaker 1: like that they try to add these modern themes, but
Speaker 1: I just feel like they're not fully paid off on
Speaker 1: It's like the themes are modern, but the actions are
Speaker 1: historic but not, but then the historical actions undermine the themes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it ends up kind of like being like, yeah, in
Speaker 1: a little bit of conflict with each other. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: just think maybe in history two women have always found
Speaker 1: ways to to enact rebellion in ways that you just
Speaker 1: just not obvious. And and an historical record is so
Speaker 1: shitty at keeping record about women in general. Who knows
Speaker 1: if if Mulan didn't. Okay, so in my version, Mulan
Speaker 1: besides that living as a man is pretty awesome. So
Speaker 1: she goes back to her hometown, tells her parents maybe
Speaker 1: like assuages them or does something where she like assuages
Speaker 1: their fears because there's going to be news all over
Speaker 1: about her, and she just goes on and lives as
Speaker 1: a man and like figures out like how because she's
Speaker 1: so successful. As I love this reason, listeners, please share
Speaker 1: your ideal ending of Mulana. We all agree the one
Speaker 1: that we get isn't the perfect one, and I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just seems like there's three better ideas in the
Speaker 1: room right now, I think, so maybe the live action
Speaker 1: one will you know, it'll be closer to one of these.
Speaker 1: Could I really quickly share just the the sourcement, just
Speaker 1: a quick summary of what the kind of legend um
Speaker 1: and how it goes, because I wasn't totally I knew
Speaker 1: that it was based on something, but I didn't know
Speaker 1: if it had something to do with history or for
Speaker 1: a strictly legend. It seems like it's legend um, but
Speaker 1: so here's a quick wiki summary. It is officially based
Speaker 1: on the Ballad of Mulan that goes a little something
Speaker 1: like this. It's set in the Northern Way era, which
Speaker 1: is between three eight six and five thirty six, which
Speaker 1: is like somewhere in the time that the movie is
Speaker 1: also supposed to take place. Is a D or BC
Speaker 1: a D but you know, a long time ago. We
Speaker 1: don't know what the politics are at this time. We
Speaker 1: still don't know who's right. I try, I was really
Speaker 1: trying to do research of like is this a real war? Yes?
Speaker 1: Who is right? I couldn't figure it out. I've got confused.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Uh. The poem starts with Mulan sitting worriedly
Speaker 1: at her loom as one male from each family is
Speaker 1: called to serve in the army to defend the Tuoba
Speaker 1: Realm from the Ruin invaders. Her father is old and weak,
Speaker 1: and her younger brother, which I'm like, oh, we cut
Speaker 1: him in. Well here's a dog. When she's like little brother,
Speaker 1: little brother, yea the dog. Well, her younger brother is
Speaker 1: just a child or a dog. So she decides to
Speaker 1: take her father's place and bids farewell to her parents,
Speaker 1: who support her, which I think is an interesting difference.
Speaker 1: And she tells her parents I'm doing this. I kind
Speaker 1: of like that about her away. She's already skilled in fighting,
Speaker 1: having been taught martial arts, sword fighting, in archery by
Speaker 1: the time she lists in the army, which I think
Speaker 1: is what you were saying to about her dad. And
Speaker 1: the interesting thing about Chinese women is that like kind
Speaker 1: of feminism went through different waves. I mean, the kind
Speaker 1: of feminism that we know about ancient Chinese women during
Speaker 1: the Confusion periods are like very like subservient and like
Speaker 1: like supposed to obey the patriarchy. But Chinese women also
Speaker 1: went through periods of time where they were the head
Speaker 1: of the household and they were like more pushed to
Speaker 1: the forefront, and those records are lost in history. Of course,
Speaker 1: it's comforting to be like, maybe it happened there, It
Speaker 1: seems like Mulan, especially because like for a story to
Speaker 1: persist for this long and like it seems like this
Speaker 1: story was written in a period where women had more
Speaker 1: agency than possibly we do right now. Um, So after
Speaker 1: twelve years of fighting the army, so she's in the
Speaker 1: military for twelve years, and after twelve years the army
Speaker 1: returns and the warriors are rewarded. Mulan turns down an
Speaker 1: official post and asked only for a camel to carry
Speaker 1: her home. Wouldn't it be great if she left on
Speaker 1: a camel. She's gretably joyed by her family. Mulan donned
Speaker 1: her old clothes and meets her comrades, who are shocked
Speaker 1: that in the twelve years of their enlistment together, they
Speaker 1: did not realize she was a woman. So that's the story.
Speaker 1: So I feel like that element the ending is kind
Speaker 1: of pulled from the legend in but then like some
Speaker 1: of the parts I think about the legend that are
Speaker 1: really cool are left out, Like what if Mulan left
Speaker 1: with her parents blessing? That's kind of wild, And like
Speaker 1: what if her father had actively trained her that would
Speaker 1: have been I don't know. There's like parts of this
Speaker 1: ancient story that feel more progressive than the story where right.
Speaker 1: I wonder if, like the this adaptation was like, well,
Speaker 1: let's really heighten the patriarchy here, but then also like
Speaker 1: bowed down to it by the very like in the
Speaker 1: very final scene of So did y'all check out the
Speaker 1: credit the writing credits for this movie. So the story
Speaker 1: is adapted by Robert C. Somebody somebody, and then the
Speaker 1: actual screenplays written by like five different people, one person
Speaker 1: being I think Chinese. I think there's one person of
Speaker 1: the fighters, Yeah, is Chinese who her other writing credits
Speaker 1: I found were Toy Story two and My Little Pony Movie.
Speaker 1: So she's solid, solid record, solid. Yeah. I was reading
Speaker 1: on Cora. I just got curious about what the Chinese
Speaker 1: think about Mulan, and I just love Cora and all
Speaker 1: it's freaky people the right like ten pages for every answer.
Speaker 1: And one of the commenters said that Kung Fu Panda
Speaker 1: was a better depiction of Chinese culture. Cannot disagree because
Speaker 1: comul Panic got a lot of things right. Well, let's
Speaker 1: talk about I mean, the depiction of Chinese culture in
Speaker 1: this movie, because a lot of the criticism I've seen
Speaker 1: around this and again I'm like a dumb white lady
Speaker 1: from Massachusetts, so my knowledge is limited, but reading just
Speaker 1: a little a little bit about the criticism surrounding it,
Speaker 1: it seems like there there is this like disconnect in
Speaker 1: adapting Eastern legend to Western pop culture, Like there is
Speaker 1: like some disconnect there that like it works for Western
Speaker 1: audiences in some ways in a way that like doesn't
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I think so. Some of the reading that
Speaker 1: I did was that Mulan as a like the four
Speaker 1: Thousand Lines poem that it is, like, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of Chinese students have to take the entrance exams
Speaker 1: that allow them to qualify for university. A Mulan is
Speaker 1: part of that curriculum. So so it's essentially like the
Speaker 1: hardest test you have to take. It you have to
Speaker 1: know like four thousand lines of a poem like Mulan
Speaker 1: has a totally different kind of place in the Chinese
Speaker 1: like psyche, it's gonna like it's like like if you
Speaker 1: had to read you know, like Katalas or something like
Speaker 1: Latin geeks would know what Catalas is. But that's the
Speaker 1: kind of test that it is, you know, So that
Speaker 1: that's that places it in a different like it's very
Speaker 1: reverential but also very scholarly. So there's that part of it.
Speaker 1: But I think what I noticed in just the production
Speaker 1: design of the movie is that they just mashed up
Speaker 1: Asia in the movie. So like the soldiers uniforms look Japanese,
Speaker 1: they look like a very Samurai influence, and then there
Speaker 1: were a ton of drums, which are very Korean, and
Speaker 1: so I think when they when this movie went to China,
Speaker 1: I think Chinese people were just like what the actual fuck,
Speaker 1: Like what the funk am I looking at on screen
Speaker 1: right now, and there's this tiny dragon that's voiced by
Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy, you know, and also named like mushi, which
Speaker 1: was like offensive in itself. Yeah, it's it's named after
Speaker 1: an Americanized Chinese dish, even that in itself, like I
Speaker 1: read some because I I didn't realize that Musho is
Speaker 1: in the new movie. I thought he was cut out
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of criticism. It might be
Speaker 1: very wrong. It might just be a dragon who is
Speaker 1: probably like photo realistic, but like to look at it,
Speaker 1: I can't say, but I I when the first because
Speaker 1: a lot of the analysis I was reading was when
Speaker 1: the first trailers were coming out and people were just
Speaker 1: kind of reacting to it. But um, you know, some
Speaker 1: American audiences were like, where is Eddie Murphy? And then
Speaker 1: the response was like that character was offensive in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways and kind of like and like just
Speaker 1: and also like, I mean, at least was meaningless and
Speaker 1: had no grounding and anything that was realistic and then
Speaker 1: at worst was like yeah, kind of like offensive and
Speaker 1: like you just named something after like americanized Chinese dish
Speaker 1: that you've had white male writer, um, of which there
Speaker 1: are three on this movie. Yes, there's a lot of them,
Speaker 1: there is, uh. For from what I could tell, it
Speaker 1: was for writer for white writers, two women and one
Speaker 1: person of Chinese heritage, who is a woman who you
Speaker 1: would think, couldn't she just write the movie, you would think,
Speaker 1: But no, you need the backup of some people such
Speaker 1: as and it's kind of I mean, it seems a
Speaker 1: little sinister to me that there are some writers here
Speaker 1: who uh there's two writers in particular who are sis
Speaker 1: had white male writers who went literally went to Harvard Um.
Speaker 1: So just a person we've encountered, but especially this writer,
Speaker 1: m Philip Lizebnik, who is a writer who seems to
Speaker 1: have specialized in animated children movies with non white protagonists,
Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that he is a sis
Speaker 1: had white male who went to Harvard UM. It's very
Speaker 1: sinister to me that you could trace a whole generation
Speaker 1: of kids worth of like held misinformation, if not racism,
Speaker 1: to like particular writers. But Philip lizette Nick has credits
Speaker 1: such as Pocahontas, uh, probably the worst one of all, Mulan,
Speaker 1: the Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado, The
Speaker 1: Lost Treasure of the Knights Templar, like just movie after
Speaker 1: movie after movie that mischaracterizes non white protagonists. Um and
Speaker 1: kind of creates these very Western narratives around cultures that
Speaker 1: they couldn't possibly understand. I mean, those were hits too,
Speaker 1: and they were all hits. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: only color Disney release Ease right, Diseasesees Switch and the
Speaker 1: other writer who kind of has the same thing as
Speaker 1: Chris Sanders, whose other biggest hit was Lilo and Stitch
Speaker 1: Um which Hawaiian is a Hawaiian culture. Chris Sanders as
Speaker 1: from Colorado, and he also fun fact this is is
Speaker 1: it fun? I don't know. He directed that new Call
Speaker 1: the Wild movie with Harrison Ford in a Pilo tennis balls,
Speaker 1: So you know, he's fine. He's never been. He's finally
Speaker 1: back in his old white man genre telling stories. I guess.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Um and a Dog, but it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like the two writers with the most
Speaker 1: credits are two white men who have been telling non
Speaker 1: white stories from a place of ignorance for their entire careers,
Speaker 1: to the tune of millions of dollars. For your consideration,
Speaker 1: Let's take another quick break and then we will come
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. We're back. Um. I have
Speaker 1: a list of ways in which this movie subverts a
Speaker 1: lot of Disney movie troops that would like to share,
Speaker 1: especially of this renaissance era, because this is one of
Speaker 1: the later Disney Renaissance movies us all the way. I
Speaker 1: think people might disagree with me, but I do not
Speaker 1: think this is a princess movie. You could disagree, but
Speaker 1: I think that's also a good thing, not positive, um
Speaker 1: to me. Unlike a lot of other Disney movies which
Speaker 1: are like the ones that are geared towards girls, they
Speaker 1: are princess fairytale narratives. And even even though this one
Speaker 1: is kind of based in ancient legend, and you know
Speaker 1: it does feature a female lead, it's not like a princess,
Speaker 1: you know, getting locked in a tower needing to be
Speaker 1: saved by a man, her prince charming any like. None
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, so, you know, just the message that rich,
Speaker 1: conventionally beautiful, usually white, young stiss women who are princesses
Speaker 1: looking for prince are the only type of women who
Speaker 1: whose stories are worth telling. Um. But Mulan subverts that
Speaker 1: whole thing. Um. I think she is the are of
Speaker 1: a wealthy family though, just judging from property like her own,
Speaker 1: like Zi, Yeah, it was, it was like very large.
Speaker 1: And usually in China you can tell how fancy people
Speaker 1: are by how high their doorsteps are. Interesting, the higher
Speaker 1: to doorsteps, the wealthier they are. You have to cross
Speaker 1: with like massive threshold. Well by that metric, Geah, they're chilling,
Speaker 1: they're good, keep the rats out nice. Next one is
Speaker 1: that kind of like piggybacking off of it not being
Speaker 1: like a princess fairy tale movie. Um, Mulan's Gold does
Speaker 1: not have anything to do with finding a man or
Speaker 1: like having a romantic interest. And you know, while Shang
Speaker 1: does show up at her house at the end and
Speaker 1: it's implied that she ends up with him romantically, it's
Speaker 1: like not the focal point of the story in anyway.
Speaker 1: It's it feels like more of like an afterthought, like
Speaker 1: danu mall thing than any major part of the plot.
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying any time. Yeah, um, And I
Speaker 1: would also argue, well, here's something that I am not
Speaker 1: too happy with, but I think Shang is like not
Speaker 1: the best love interest. Agree, he's hot, he's hot, nipples.
Speaker 1: I was trying Okay, I pause, I couldn't talk. Does
Speaker 1: he have nipples? Because Disney has this weird thing where
Speaker 1: they're like men can be shirtless, but they can't have nipples.
Speaker 1: He does have kiples, he didn't, okay, thank you, because
Speaker 1: I was like King Triton didn't have nipples, and that
Speaker 1: that kN Tritton does does have there just dominent nipples.
Speaker 1: Back the nipples because there was a time where they
Speaker 1: were shirtless men but they didn't have nipple because maybe
Speaker 1: King Triton's nipples scared them off. Maybe, but like Aladdin
Speaker 1: does not have nipples. Aladdin was just so sexual. They
Speaker 1: were like, we got a total back because the genie
Speaker 1: also doesn't have nipples. Both male protagonists are shirtless the
Speaker 1: whole time. They don't have nipples, and then you're just like,
Speaker 1: who is this or got anatomically correct Asian male nipples
Speaker 1: for the audience Another point for the movie. The next
Speaker 1: thing on my list is that Mulan's mother is not dead.
Speaker 1: She does not have a dead mom the character wise, characterwise,
Speaker 1: she is not alive. She could just be the grandma.
Speaker 1: They could have just folded that into one character, which
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, there to this day, shamefully, one of
Speaker 1: my mom's favorite Disney exchanges in the Whole Cannon is
Speaker 1: towards the end where the where Mulan says would you
Speaker 1: like to stay for dinner? And the grandma says would
Speaker 1: you like to stay forever? My mom howls, She's like
Speaker 1: the funniest joke ever written, Like that's my mom's bar
Speaker 1: for comedy that exchange. But Grandma, Yeah, So her mom
Speaker 1: is a lot, her mother isn't alive, and we also
Speaker 1: see her grandmother. Both of those characters really just want
Speaker 1: Mulan to be a bride, And the movie does frame
Speaker 1: Mulan's relationship with her father as the more important relationship
Speaker 1: in the story, and I think a little more like
Speaker 1: even more frustrating. On top of that, is like her
Speaker 1: father seems to be the only person in her family
Speaker 1: who believes that she is capable of more than being
Speaker 1: a you know, like very conscribed feminine person, which is
Speaker 1: frustrating and like doesn't I don't know like that, Like
Speaker 1: her father is the one who believes in her, and
Speaker 1: her mother and her grandmother, who are both seemed to
Speaker 1: be pretty strong female characters, don't believe that she's capable
Speaker 1: of more. It's like, well then they might as well
Speaker 1: be dead, you know what I mean. I don't want
Speaker 1: them to, but but you know what, like the fact
Speaker 1: that her father is the one who is presented is
Speaker 1: by far the more most sympathetic character, where Like he's
Speaker 1: the one that believes in her and he gets the
Speaker 1: big moment at the end of the greatest honor of
Speaker 1: all is having he as my daughter. And I'm like weeping,
Speaker 1: but I'm also critical. Next thing is, from what I
Speaker 1: could tell, the villain is not queer quoted like the
Speaker 1: villains are. It's just racist. It's just racist that way better.
Speaker 1: They don't even have human skin tones, that's like they're
Speaker 1: and he has yellow eyes. That is I mean, that
Speaker 1: is like something that is like a major issue I
Speaker 1: had on a rewatch of Like they are drawn to
Speaker 1: not be people, the people who we are not given
Speaker 1: any perspective on why are they fighting? What are they
Speaker 1: fighting for? It? They're like they're on the opposite side
Speaker 1: of our protagonists, and so we're going to draw them
Speaker 1: as gray, immortal animals. What if they're fighting for like
Speaker 1: universal health care is just like fuck you girl. More likely,
Speaker 1: what if they're literally canvassing for Bernie? I mean, that
Speaker 1: is how Bernie grows up, but then it's like but
Speaker 1: ultimately they have some good ideas. I don't know. My
Speaker 1: guess is that in the context of this kind of
Speaker 1: time period in China, there's a bunch of warring tribes.
Speaker 1: There's like there's no real China like per se. You know,
Speaker 1: China's in its four thousand years of history has had
Speaker 1: so many different iterations of its kingdom. So the sort
Speaker 1: of fancy side, the fancy Chinese in this movie are
Speaker 1: like the ones that have cities and stuff. Most likely
Speaker 1: there were the people that were leving taxes against the
Speaker 1: people that were more nomadic because they're because they have
Speaker 1: the infrastructure to do it and to collect taxes, and
Speaker 1: the invaders, usually nomadic invaders don't want to pay taxes.
Speaker 1: That's why they're nomadic. And maybe that's that might be
Speaker 1: what the invasions about. But the timeline is also super distorted,
Speaker 1: so I in in the movie it says it takes
Speaker 1: place during dynasty, which ended like a hundred years before.
Speaker 1: Like the Huns, the legend and the movie don't take
Speaker 1: place in the same I don't even know how intentionally
Speaker 1: that's done or if that was just like scattershot White
Speaker 1: writer being like here because the Han dynasty, from what
Speaker 1: research I've done, seems to be kind of like a
Speaker 1: Golden age of Chinese history. So I don't know if
Speaker 1: a white writer did a light google almost like sure,
Speaker 1: let's put it here, um, But that's not It seems
Speaker 1: like the Ballad of Muan takes place after where we're
Speaker 1: being told the movie takes place, which would be in BC.
Speaker 1: Not so confusing. Ancient history is wild in any case,
Speaker 1: the villain is not queer coded the way that many
Speaker 1: villains of this you know, Disney Renaissance era are. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't give that a point though, because it's just racist
Speaker 1: instead of it's like a racist and making it to
Speaker 1: seem like it's a zombie animal. That's true, okay, so withdraw,
Speaker 1: but speaking is just worse worse. Well, and I don't
Speaker 1: mean to sound like I'm defending anything here, but the
Speaker 1: queer coded villains are also racist in these in you know,
Speaker 1: Lion King and because they always have darker skin and
Speaker 1: things like that. Yes, I mean, and this is the
Speaker 1: very least, but like at least in some cases the
Speaker 1: queer coded villains have been reclaimed. I do not see
Speaker 1: anyone reclaiming like like, like, fuck you, Disney, I'm reclaiming
Speaker 1: Sean You like no one has reclaimed Sean You. Plenty
Speaker 1: have reclaimed Ursula in a very powerful way. That is
Speaker 1: like a middle finger to the Disney Corporation. That's also
Speaker 1: given him a lot of my She's a businesswoman and
Speaker 1: a lawyer. Of course, Shan You has made zero dollars
Speaker 1: in the past ten years. If the color we're talking
Speaker 1: about is green, shaw You is negative. Another one. Mulan
Speaker 1: never has to be saved. I don't think me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I didn't. I don't notice any moment
Speaker 1: where she had But she does save. She saves Shang
Speaker 1: during the avalanche, and then again towards the end when
Speaker 1: um Shan You is about to kill Shang and Mulan
Speaker 1: like throws a shoe at him, and she's like, it
Speaker 1: was me who took your victory away. And then Mulan
Speaker 1: and Shan You battle each other, which leads me to
Speaker 1: the next kind of trope being subverted, which is Mulan
Speaker 1: gets to defeat the villain during the climax of the movie,
Speaker 1: and she fights with weapons and pots, pans domestic items,
Speaker 1: which is how we normally see if a woman is
Speaker 1: allowed to fight and defend herself. It is with traditionally
Speaker 1: feminine objects, right, Like Mulan is using like real weapons,
Speaker 1: whereas her friends, her army buddies, who are dressed in
Speaker 1: dragged by the way and this and this climactic sequence. Um,
Speaker 1: they are using like fruit to fight the bad guys.
Speaker 1: So it's like, guess, I mean, I don't know what
Speaker 1: that suggests exactly inversion that you're like, it's like, it's
Speaker 1: like men who are presenting as women still using domestic
Speaker 1: items to fight with. I think, yeah, it didn't bother me. Well,
Speaker 1: the fun part of that scene on the roof with
Speaker 1: Shang You is that she's fighting him with like the
Speaker 1: sort of the board identity items, like a random stick
Speaker 1: or something. Right, But then she takes shang you sword
Speaker 1: from him, And that's the bad ass of where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: ship's about the guest real you got your sword taken away? Stereotype.
Speaker 1: You're like, listen, raises villain, she got to the top
Speaker 1: of the pole. You don't understand, Like it's exciting, um,
Speaker 1: And I well, I was worried that this wouldn't be
Speaker 1: the case because you know, we see in a little
Speaker 1: Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast, where even though the
Speaker 1: protagonists of those movies are women, it's always the male
Speaker 1: love interest who steps in and like defeats the villain.
Speaker 1: But so I was like, oh, no, is this going
Speaker 1: to happen again, especially when I don't even know where
Speaker 1: Shaning is for the majority of the Yeah, he's like
Speaker 1: I'm honestly, he doesn't kind of burst in and fight
Speaker 1: Shan you for like a minute, but then then he
Speaker 1: gets knocked away. And then Mulan takes over and right
Speaker 1: fights with weapons. She uses cannon, she uses swords and
Speaker 1: both narrows and like all this stuff, and Shane gets
Speaker 1: pretty much sidelined from that, you know, final climactic battle sequence,
Speaker 1: he breaks her fall. That's how important to the fight
Speaker 1: is he breaks her fall. He doesn't want a well
Speaker 1: placed poll could do. Um. So yeah, those are the
Speaker 1: main things I clocked in terms of this movie, um subverting,
Speaker 1: And I just think that like Mulan is a character overall,
Speaker 1: is just better characterized and like someone the Little Girls
Speaker 1: and anyone who's watching this movie can look up to
Speaker 1: far more than the main stree is Mulan, Like she
Speaker 1: fucking rules like no one will ever talk me out
Speaker 1: of mulan rules. She's amazed and and she's also from
Speaker 1: what I was able to track, the first non white person,
Speaker 1: whether justified or not, included in Disney Princess Cannon, who
Speaker 1: isn't sexualized within an inch of her life, because that
Speaker 1: was a huge I mean with Jasmine Esmeralda and Coca Hantas.
Speaker 1: They were three brown women of different ethnicities who were
Speaker 1: over sexualized, and it was a big problem. And this
Speaker 1: was like one of the first things where you're, like,
Speaker 1: did Disney take a note because Mulan is not sexualized,
Speaker 1: she like her body is mostly hidden, right and and
Speaker 1: and that kind of lines up with like, her character
Speaker 1: has no vested interest in appearing in a sexualized way.
Speaker 1: And it's like, it's one thing if like a female
Speaker 1: character is like I want to present a certain way,
Speaker 1: but that is not her stated intent and the movie
Speaker 1: doesn't subject her to anything that doesn't make sense, and
Speaker 1: that like that that is like, unfortunately a huge step
Speaker 1: forward for Disney Renaissance movies, especially as not like I
Speaker 1: mean not they sexualize all women, but they especially over
Speaker 1: sexualized non white women. So in that way, you're like,
Speaker 1: and there would have been an opportunity because there's that
Speaker 1: scene where she takes a bath and like the pond,
Speaker 1: she gets naked, and there's right but like all of
Speaker 1: that is handled like very responsibly as far as is handled. Yes,
Speaker 1: But then like that reminds me of the moment in
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid when Ariel has just gotten her legs for
Speaker 1: the first time and she's swimming to the surface and
Speaker 1: then she bursts through the surface and there's this shot
Speaker 1: she's like silhouetted by the sunlight, but it's like really
Speaker 1: sexualized where like wet hair whips around her whole body
Speaker 1: is rising. Yeah, I mean, god, I don't want to
Speaker 1: I mean, how can like all of my various eating
Speaker 1: disorders be traspect to dizny movies? Don't want to think
Speaker 1: about it. But I don't think Mulan was a contributor.
Speaker 1: So um well, that's a good transition into talking about
Speaker 1: how masculinity is portrayed in this movie. I think that
Speaker 1: it's mostly good points that are brought up, but I
Speaker 1: do have some thoughts on it where I feel like
Speaker 1: Mulan's character in many ways is presented as a direct
Speaker 1: challenge to like Musho, who is a character that I'm like,
Speaker 1: I honestly am like on the rewatch, I'm like not
Speaker 1: very attached to because he is, like the joke is
Speaker 1: that he's very fixated on his own size, and the
Speaker 1: joke is that he's kind of misogynist. But we like
Speaker 1: him and like I kind of had it with that,
Speaker 1: and like whatever, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey and
Speaker 1: we salute him. But in general, I mean, I like
Speaker 1: those scenes where Mulan is presented with traditional masculinity, which
Speaker 1: is like sweaty and aggressive and mean, and she's kind
Speaker 1: of like you, I hate that I have to she
Speaker 1: resents that she has to participate in it. Uh. There's
Speaker 1: that scene where Musha is talking her through her first
Speaker 1: interaction as a man with a man, and it's like
Speaker 1: she punches him in the face and she slaps his
Speaker 1: ass and that's the whole interaction and it like sort
Speaker 1: of works and you're just like okay. But and then
Speaker 1: there's that other um. The other interaction that Mulan has
Speaker 1: that I feel like is in complete challenge to the
Speaker 1: masculinity presented by the soldiers is when they're singing a
Speaker 1: girl We're fighting for a song that I have problems
Speaker 1: with but where Mulan's only line in that song and
Speaker 1: she's like, how about a girl that has a brain
Speaker 1: that always speaks her mind? And everyone's like like fuck you.
Speaker 1: Like that was the moment where I was like female
Speaker 1: comic where it's like she's almost fit again, but then
Speaker 1: she almost stands up for women and everyone's like, get
Speaker 1: out of because the lines before that, they're like, we
Speaker 1: want a woman who's really hot, who will you know,
Speaker 1: really congratulate me on my masculinity, my battle scars, I
Speaker 1: don't know, and then the one guy is like, I
Speaker 1: don't care what she looks like, but she has to
Speaker 1: cook me meals all the time, which is a fat joke.
Speaker 1: Also on top of that, it's just that I've kind
Speaker 1: of conflicted with how the soldiers that aren't Lee Shane
Speaker 1: because I feel like he's in like romantic interest category.
Speaker 1: But the three soldiers that she becomes friends with, there's
Speaker 1: good things and there's bad things because by the end
Speaker 1: they realized they should never have underestimated paying Mulan and
Speaker 1: that a woman is capable of so much more than
Speaker 1: what they were singing about. But ultimately it's kind of
Speaker 1: I feel like, kind of falls into like the friendly
Speaker 1: misogynist trope where we hear them there's a lot of
Speaker 1: like constantly they're like, I want to woman, I am
Speaker 1: very like committed to this style of soldier misogyny that
Speaker 1: also feels very Western too. It's like very Western culture,
Speaker 1: but we also love them and it's so it's like
Speaker 1: they sort of learn a lesson at the end, but
Speaker 1: I feel like it doesn't go far enough because they
Speaker 1: are just like lovable misogynists. Ultimately, I think they're They're
Speaker 1: supposed redeeming scene is at the end in the that
Speaker 1: battle where Sheng You comes out and he's fighting Le
Speaker 1: Shang and then the emperor's gone and they actively decide
Speaker 1: to group around Mulan. And when they make that choice,
Speaker 1: that's the that's the that's the choice that's supposed to
Speaker 1: justify all the misogyny I think. And I it's like
Speaker 1: and I like that it it laid lands somewhere, but
Speaker 1: there's still a whole song about misogyny that thinking that
Speaker 1: we know by heart. Yeah, And it's like somebody so
Speaker 1: everything in a movie is intentional, nothing's accidental. Somebody was
Speaker 1: It's paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for that song.
Speaker 1: And then singers were also booked time separately to sing
Speaker 1: that song, and then sound engineers were also paid to
Speaker 1: miss that song. So when you think about how much
Speaker 1: work it takes to put us on into the movie,
Speaker 1: the question like does this misogyny the anthem have to
Speaker 1: be in this movie about like empowering a young girl
Speaker 1: who get three songs in this movie, and this is
Speaker 1: one of the reflection make a man out of you
Speaker 1: and girl they're trying at the beginning when there's the match.
Speaker 1: I mean, twenty of the songs are aggressively misogynists the
Speaker 1: first song, in the last song. So once again, I
Speaker 1: don't want to sound like I'm defending anything that's bad,
Speaker 1: but like I read that is one of the obstacles
Speaker 1: that like Mulan has to overcome, is like misogyny, and
Speaker 1: like that's why that song is there. Do we need
Speaker 1: it there? Do those lyrics so doesn't doesn't have to
Speaker 1: slap like to laugh. It's like they did too good
Speaker 1: of a job with the misogyny anthem, And I feel
Speaker 1: the same. I feel this. I feel the same way
Speaker 1: about like I used to tell a joke about this
Speaker 1: then and I was like I gotta grow up but
Speaker 1: one of the best songs in Hunchback of Notre Dame
Speaker 1: is the priest singing about how he wants to murder
Speaker 1: a woman if she won't fuck him, and it slaps.
Speaker 1: It's so it's such a good song and I know
Speaker 1: every word, and you're like, this can't Like the villain
Speaker 1: songs are always the best songs. Maybe we could interpret
Speaker 1: this as the villain song. Maybe I feel the single song.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, I feel like that is kind
Speaker 1: of a great area. But like I feel like the
Speaker 1: song with the worst message shouldn't slap the hardest. I
Speaker 1: see your pointing. Yes, that's a new rule, putting it down.
Speaker 1: I do has to be like not the best song. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it should be like the collaboration between Phil Collins and Insane,
Speaker 1: you know, like that should be the writing team behind this.
Speaker 1: Is that it has to be there. It has to
Speaker 1: be like mediocre and not memorable, because if it's good,
Speaker 1: then you'll know all the words and you'll, like, whether
Speaker 1: intentionally or not, sort of internalize it, you know. I do,
Speaker 1: like though, where like Mulan's relationship with those like three
Speaker 1: soldier friends of hers like lands, where they once they realize,
Speaker 1: oh she is worth trusting. They get on her side again.
Speaker 1: They dress and drag and then they like use the
Speaker 1: method that she used to um like shimmy up the
Speaker 1: poll during their training, so that gets called back to
Speaker 1: that's how they like get into like the emperor's like
Speaker 1: chambers so they can save him, like all that stuff.
Speaker 1: So I at least like how Mulan has allies by
Speaker 1: the end um, of course, none of them are women.
Speaker 1: She has no female friends in this story. That's that's
Speaker 1: the big failing of Well, no, I wouldn't call it
Speaker 1: a failing because the story wasn't sort of meant for this,
Speaker 1: that the myths and Mulan doesn't spread amongst young women
Speaker 1: and make young women want to like take places for
Speaker 1: their fathers and rewards, and that she Mulan remains an
Speaker 1: exceptional woman. And that's like, that's always like the thing
Speaker 1: that the pick me trope, you know, like where you
Speaker 1: like pick me, I'm special, I'm not like these other girls,
Speaker 1: And unfortunately Mulan does fall into I'm not like other
Speaker 1: girl's territory. That's so that I mean, just you're saying that,
Speaker 1: it's just like because we've been making fun of the
Speaker 1: not like the other girl's trope for so long, but
Speaker 1: the way you just for I mean, like it does
Speaker 1: I feel like they're not like the other girl's trope.
Speaker 1: There isn't really a not like the other guy's trope.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that is a way to tell
Speaker 1: women that you have to believe that you are the
Speaker 1: only person who can do this as a way to
Speaker 1: discourage you from encouraging other women to do the same
Speaker 1: thing that you're doing. Like it it does feel like
Speaker 1: I mean even in in our common experience of comedy,
Speaker 1: like I was always fresh rated by like why are
Speaker 1: all the like it's so easy for male comics to
Speaker 1: make friends with each other. There's there seems to be
Speaker 1: really not a lot of intense competition among them, where
Speaker 1: when I was starting, I felt like female comics were
Speaker 1: felt to be in competition because there were just less
Speaker 1: spots for them, and so a defense tactic would be
Speaker 1: and not like the other girls, like well what I
Speaker 1: do is and what the other people do and it is.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's like a patriarchal thing to be told,
Speaker 1: like you have to be so confident in yourself that
Speaker 1: you want to actively discourage other women women from doing
Speaker 1: the same thing I mean, And I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: this a lot lately, the idea of like not like
Speaker 1: the other girls, and and what does that mean? Because
Speaker 1: on one hand, like the way this movie partly frames
Speaker 1: that idea, is Mulan kind of rejecting femininity in a
Speaker 1: certain way, or at least the type of femininity that
Speaker 1: is often forced on women by men in or by
Speaker 1: patriarchal standards in that might make her seem like not
Speaker 1: one of the other girls, but that's in a way
Speaker 1: that like, that's her choice. She's expressing her authentic self,
Speaker 1: you know, she's she might not be as feminine as
Speaker 1: other women or you know whatever. But to me, I
Speaker 1: didn't really have any problem with that the way it's
Speaker 1: at least that specific aspect of it is depicted in
Speaker 1: this movie, because um, the whole setup, like the whole
Speaker 1: first act of this movie is us being shown Mulan
Speaker 1: not fitting the mold of what's expected of a woman
Speaker 1: and a bride in her community and culture, like you
Speaker 1: know the world of this movie, Um, because what's expected
Speaker 1: of a woman is to be quiet and delicate and obedient,
Speaker 1: and you know, these porcelain doll wives who will bear
Speaker 1: children and you know Mulan doesn't really want to participate
Speaker 1: in that. Um. There's whole song, the you know, the
Speaker 1: one that we forgot about, the You'll bring honor to us?
Speaker 1: All I think is the name of it. But you know,
Speaker 1: the lyrics are things like a girl can bring honor
Speaker 1: to her family in one way by striking a good match.
Speaker 1: This could be the day men want girls with good taste, calm, obedient,
Speaker 1: who work fast paced, with good breeding in a tiny waist,
Speaker 1: sing a Cain. I can't. I don't know that they're there,
Speaker 1: I know, but I think that that song. I just
Speaker 1: have such conflicted feelings about it because I feel like
Speaker 1: that song is used to make every woman in the
Speaker 1: movie to look bad. Yes, Like why is that? I know?
Speaker 1: I feel like it comes from the same place. Yes,
Speaker 1: the only ally to move on in her life even
Speaker 1: remotely as her father. Right, Okay, yes, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is just the idea of like,
Speaker 1: you know, being yourself and if yourself is a little like,
Speaker 1: you know, tomboyish, Sure, if you don't want to be
Speaker 1: a wife, um, and like that's just like who you
Speaker 1: are and what you want and like as long as
Speaker 1: you're like not dismissing or judging other people who do
Speaker 1: want that, which I don't think isn't is Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I agree, there is like a conflicting message to be
Speaker 1: had here because that whole setup serves to show like, yeah, Mulan,
Speaker 1: isn't this like obedient, submissive woman. She's strong, she's outspoken,
Speaker 1: she's smart, all that stuff. But it does end up
Speaker 1: painting all those women who do like want to go
Speaker 1: to the matchmaker and be matched with a husband. It
Speaker 1: makes them seem like, oh, what fools. It paints them
Speaker 1: very broadly. Yes, and to think about everything economically, because
Speaker 1: every decision that these characters make in life is tied
Speaker 1: to like how they're able to live. Is that the
Speaker 1: women are making these choices because they have to marry
Speaker 1: out of the family because the family can no longer
Speaker 1: support them, you know. So it's like they literally are
Speaker 1: getting married to live. That is that That's something that's
Speaker 1: like in the first brush of this movie feels like
Speaker 1: a choice. What's really not a choice? If it's frustrating
Speaker 1: to see a movie of any I mean, and Mulan
Speaker 1: is not the only movie to do this, and it's
Speaker 1: not the worst offender of this, but to make it
Speaker 1: seems like this is what women truly deeply want because
Speaker 1: they are petty and vapid as opposed to like literally
Speaker 1: this is the only way in this historical context to survive,
Speaker 1: and there are complicated feelings that come with that. There
Speaker 1: is an opportunity to show that with her mother and
Speaker 1: her grandmother, but it just kind of ends up seeming
Speaker 1: like they're not exactly shrewish, but like rigid in that
Speaker 1: way of like. And I feel like, as a kid especially,
Speaker 1: you don't fully understand where that's coming from, and the
Speaker 1: movie doesn't really attempt to explain it to you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost too complicated for the movie
Speaker 1: to explain. But the place that comes from is does
Speaker 1: feel shallow. I agree, Yeah, I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like it's but ultimately Mulan is the like the
Speaker 1: best heroine in Disney Cannon up to this point, so
Speaker 1: it's like you have to give it its due and
Speaker 1: you know what else, she is the baldest woman in charge.
Speaker 1: I even though she doesn't like shaver head or anything,
Speaker 1: but she does cut her hair. That is like such
Speaker 1: a great afe that montage. I'm like I'm like, it
Speaker 1: does so much to like from it, And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: this like glorifies going to war. But I'm like, but
Speaker 1: I'm crying, so I don't know what I feel. It's
Speaker 1: like Ultimately we do see her like making a gigantic
Speaker 1: sacrifice for the patriarchal figure in her life to go
Speaker 1: to war for them. But but you're also like, but
Speaker 1: then she realizes, like, I did this for myself, So
Speaker 1: I don't I love it? I mean, and the idea
Speaker 1: of I've read a number of things that are about
Speaker 1: gender performativity theory as it pertains to this movie. One
Speaker 1: great analysis I read was independently published by writer named
Speaker 1: Julianne Fung, who generally praises and argues that the main
Speaker 1: theme of Mulan is a film is about gender performance.
Speaker 1: She's she's using the hit She's using Judith Butler, you know,
Speaker 1: like she's but but saying that basically, one of the
Speaker 1: things that makes remarkable is that she recognizes that gender
Speaker 1: is in many ways a performance, and she learns to
Speaker 1: perform it too, and and then by the end of
Speaker 1: the movie has like effectively convinced hyper masculine soldiers that
Speaker 1: gender is a performance to the point where they're willing
Speaker 1: to experiment with it themselves at the climax where they
Speaker 1: dressed and drag very confidently and are successful, and you
Speaker 1: can make an argument of like is a mockery being
Speaker 1: made of them? Is it kind of played for laughs?
Speaker 1: I think in if some ways it is in the
Speaker 1: same way that the climax of the Lion King Toman
Speaker 1: is wearing this little like grass skirt and he's like,
Speaker 1: it's not totally great because it's a little bit of joke,
Speaker 1: but it also like on paper, it's like these hyper
Speaker 1: masculine soldiers are willing to play around with gender performativity
Speaker 1: theory and like that doesn't happen a lot of that's
Speaker 1: cool and they're not punished for it. They're successful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they they defeat the villain who's just advocating for socialized medicine. Um,
Speaker 1: that's because because he's sick, he's jaundice. Why is medicare
Speaker 1: for all? The villain? But I don't understand. Um. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite lines in the movie is when um
Speaker 1: Mulan like first shows up to like the boot camp
Speaker 1: and she's something happens where she like punches one of
Speaker 1: the guys to like try to fit in and like
Speaker 1: be you know man. But um, she says, you know
Speaker 1: how it is when you get those manly urges and
Speaker 1: you just got to kill something because like she is,
Speaker 1: it's like just you know, gender performance. The last thing
Speaker 1: I wanted to say, just like something that I because
Speaker 1: I've been trying to sort of keep up on as
Speaker 1: it is recording. None of us have seen the new
Speaker 1: Mulan movie. It's not out. I really hope that it's good.
Speaker 1: They're the other ones have not been, I mean, but
Speaker 1: it's also like they've all made money. They it's very
Speaker 1: possible that it will be fine and make a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: which is also like whatever I'll see it. I have
Speaker 1: yet to see a live action adaptation in theaters. Um,
Speaker 1: I've seen most of them and I have them, but
Speaker 1: like this one, I will see because Mulan means I
Speaker 1: think of this era the most to be out of
Speaker 1: any of them, but it is there is still it
Speaker 1: seems like that persistent problem of this movie is trying
Speaker 1: to be a negotiation between the American and Chinese film industry.
Speaker 1: Is the two most powerful film industries on the planet,
Speaker 1: and from what I have read, about the plot of
Speaker 1: this movie. There have been narrative changes, but all of
Speaker 1: them that I've read about, you're just kind of like,
Speaker 1: is that better or is it just different? Where in
Speaker 1: this adaptation the idea of arranged marriage is really really
Speaker 1: pushed when it's like this was never even a part
Speaker 1: of the source material, Like it's really frustrating, and it
Speaker 1: seems like what the live action adaptation is referring to
Speaker 1: instead of the source material, which is more progressive than adaptation,
Speaker 1: as it's referring to an earlier draft of adaptation that
Speaker 1: was scrapped. Because what I found in my research was
Speaker 1: the first pitch of this movie is that she that
Speaker 1: Mulan is betrothed to Lee Shang, and that through resentment
Speaker 1: of the person she's betrothed to, she's motivated to pose
Speaker 1: as a man to get out of an arranged marriage,
Speaker 1: which is, however, you feel about it, very different from
Speaker 1: the source material, and that seems to be and I
Speaker 1: don't know what the exact but it seems like it's
Speaker 1: instead of it's just like, man, something written in ancient
Speaker 1: times is more progressive than what we're doing now. Just
Speaker 1: fucking Christ. There's an alternative version of her love interests,
Speaker 1: which is that she was. It's actually a really progressive
Speaker 1: vision of love, which is something I don't think about
Speaker 1: with ancient Chinese stories. But she's engaged. She's one of
Speaker 1: the most beautiful women, most accomplished women in the village,
Speaker 1: and she's engaged to a man who appreciates her unconditionally,
Speaker 1: and even though they're absolutely in love with each other
Speaker 1: and he's like literally Mr Perfect, she breaks the engagement
Speaker 1: to save her dad. It's like fully like seeded choices
Speaker 1: as an individual, So she breaks her perfect engagement with
Speaker 1: her perfect man to go save her dad. And then
Speaker 1: during the course of the battle, she meets her fiance again.
Speaker 1: And by this time, because her fiance is such an
Speaker 1: amazing man, he's the military strategist in this war, so
Speaker 1: she has to hide from him because she's like in
Speaker 1: full drag as a man. So in her sort of
Speaker 1: hidden agenda where she's on a different side of the
Speaker 1: mountain from him so that he can't out her. That's
Speaker 1: how she defeats the enemies, because she's in the right
Speaker 1: place at the right time, which is also like, how
Speaker 1: do I feel it's more interesting than this idea that
Speaker 1: I just read. Wow, I'm like, I need to take
Speaker 1: a second on that one. The last thing that I
Speaker 1: had to say was just a funny uh anecdote that
Speaker 1: just I think just like speaks to how rigid the
Speaker 1: Disney formula was, especially at this time, where it's like
Speaker 1: female protagonist has to sing a song about what she
Speaker 1: wants at the beginning. She has an animal sidekick and
Speaker 1: a secondary animal sidekick. This is like well documented in
Speaker 1: all of them. I think it's most clearly taken from Bocahunas,
Speaker 1: where you have Miko the Raccoon and Flit the bird.
Speaker 1: There's two and Mulan is a copy paste of that,
Speaker 1: where I guess that like like executives were pushing the
Speaker 1: cricket so much. No one wanted the cricket. Everyone was like,
Speaker 1: the cricket doesn't do anything, cricket can't talk. Why is
Speaker 1: the cricket here? Everyone, including the two sis had white
Speaker 1: male directors, were like, we don't want the cricket. Uh.
Speaker 1: Director Barry Temple said quote the directors didn't want the
Speaker 1: cricket in the movie. A story department didn't want the
Speaker 1: cricket in the movie. The only people who wanted him
Speaker 1: in the movie were Michael Eisner had to cricket when
Speaker 1: I was a chod. Then Harry Tumble says, I was
Speaker 1: sitting meetings and they'd say, well, where's the cricket during
Speaker 1: all this, and someone would say, fuck the cricket. So
Speaker 1: just if you're wondering why the cricket is very spark
Speaker 1: because everyone was just like, we don't know what to
Speaker 1: do with the cricket. You have Eddie Murphy, what more
Speaker 1: do you want from us? I mean the cricket is
Speaker 1: lu shue sidekick, was your psychick. He's like a forced
Speaker 1: to your sidekick. Justice for the Cricket. He knows how
Speaker 1: to right. We see him like writing something on the
Speaker 1: lead can read. He can read and write. He's very educated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why can't we in Justice for the Cricket? No one
Speaker 1: wanted going back to the live action thing. Um the
Speaker 1: live action Milan seems to have eliminated the villain of
Speaker 1: Sean you uh and added instead a witch. Um, the
Speaker 1: hawk or the falcon or whatever type of bird that
Speaker 1: is that we see in the animated version is now
Speaker 1: a witch who can anamorphe into this bird. It needs
Speaker 1: to be seen whether this is a good idea. I mean,
Speaker 1: it adds another female character, but I could be violence exactly.
Speaker 1: Goldie is amazing, so I'm here for it, good good um.
Speaker 1: And then Mulan seems to have a sister now, as
Speaker 1: referenced in one of the trailers, so I don't know
Speaker 1: hard to say how important that character will be, but
Speaker 1: they seem to be doing what all these live action
Speaker 1: Disney movies are doing, which is like add some female characters,
Speaker 1: some female friends for you know, the women the female
Speaker 1: protagonist in the movie to like appease fans. Probably um well,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we are seeing. And it's also
Speaker 1: a female director of the new Mulan movie, although there's
Speaker 1: still she is a white lady from New zeal And.
Speaker 1: So I feel like it kind of remains to be
Speaker 1: seen to how effective this adaptation will be. I feel
Speaker 1: like there is a lot of and Lyndsay once again,
Speaker 1: Queen Lindsay Ellis has done and excellent if kind of
Speaker 1: like oh no to watch video essays about the kind
Speaker 1: of woke ifying of these Disney reboots and how meaningful
Speaker 1: is it and how much of it is motivated by
Speaker 1: money and just saying things that modern audience is wanting
Speaker 1: to hear, while still not ultimately like updating what their
Speaker 1: values are. So we'll see, we'll see. I want to
Speaker 1: be I'm I'm cautiously optimistic. But we've but five of
Speaker 1: these movies have come out and none of them have
Speaker 1: been good. I hope it's good. Um does a movie
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test? I don't think so. I actually
Speaker 1: forgot to pay attention once again. I think, yeah, the
Speaker 1: grandma and the mom might have had a conversation about Mulan,
Speaker 1: which technically passes the Bechdel test, right, I think it depends.
Speaker 1: I think on this on not like strictly like it
Speaker 1: may pass once, but the context of what they're talking
Speaker 1: about is always marriage and marriage. I feel like it
Speaker 1: doesn't pass. I don't know. I was reading in the
Speaker 1: forums of like there's been more so than almost any
Speaker 1: other movie I've ever checked on this because I thought
Speaker 1: at the end, I was like, I don't really know,
Speaker 1: and then I checked in the forums and people are
Speaker 1: back and forth. A lot of people are like, technically yes,
Speaker 1: some people say that the female ancestors talk to each other,
Speaker 1: but we don't know whe their names are, so for
Speaker 1: us doesn't pass. I'm going to say that it for me,
Speaker 1: it doesn't pass. And I think that that's a testament
Speaker 1: to mentor the fact that this is a movie where
Speaker 1: we have a very strong female protagonist who has no
Speaker 1: women to talk to. Right because even the conversations between women,
Speaker 1: either whether it's you know, Milan and her mother or
Speaker 1: grandmother or the matchmaker, the context, like we said, of
Speaker 1: almost every one of those conversations, even though there might
Speaker 1: be like two line in exchanges where a man's name
Speaker 1: isn't mentioned, the context of the entire conversation will still
Speaker 1: be like are you primped enough to be a bride?
Speaker 1: Kind of thing to a man. I think that this
Speaker 1: is kind of a movie ultimately that I to my
Speaker 1: grave will defend Mulan. I love Mulan the person, but
Speaker 1: I think in terms of how this movie portrays women,
Speaker 1: it ultimately is like the exceptional woman and not that
Speaker 1: women are exceptional. Yes, yes, indeed, that's always way of
Speaker 1: putting it. That's my pull quote. Also, that is that
Speaker 1: is what I'd like for you to put on a
Speaker 1: T shirt. Um, bye bye. Well, that brings us to
Speaker 1: our nipple scale, serified nipples, basiness representation of women. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean, all things considered, it does a pretty good job,
Speaker 1: at least compared to other comparable Disney Renaissance movies, it is,
Speaker 1: you know, the most empowering one to date. And then
Speaker 1: you know, then Molanna came up along where well, but
Speaker 1: Molanna came along almost twenty years later, and Molana isn't perfect,
Speaker 1: which contrary to our critique. Um, But like I said,
Speaker 1: I wish I had had this movie to grow up with.
Speaker 1: Um Instead, I like latched onto a Little Mermaid and
Speaker 1: we already talked about how many problems that movie has. Um,
Speaker 1: I think I'll give it a three. Um, I'm that
Speaker 1: might be a little too generous or maybe not generous enough.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I really miss fire on the new Nipple rating.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's a hard metric, but you know,
Speaker 1: I think the way that it subverts a lot of
Speaker 1: the tropes, specifically of Disney movies, while it also adheres
Speaker 1: to a lot of kind of the you know, problematic
Speaker 1: things that we've already discussed. Yeah, I think I'll stick
Speaker 1: with a three. Ummulan is a character is terrific. I
Speaker 1: hope this live action reboot does her even more justice.
Speaker 1: Um remains to be seen, But three nipples, Um, I
Speaker 1: will give one of them to shang Um and his
Speaker 1: visit bowl nipples. Um, I will give well and then
Speaker 1: I'll just give the other two to Milan. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: know three and a half on this. I'm also very
Speaker 1: biased towards this movie because it's like one of those
Speaker 1: movies that I have seen a million times and it
Speaker 1: feels very like in my DNA of just how much
Speaker 1: I love it. But I feel like for its time,
Speaker 1: this is as progressive as children's media was getting on
Speaker 1: a mass scale. I think that like young just young
Speaker 1: people in general seeing this movie like got a view
Speaker 1: of a female protagonist that they really had never gotten
Speaker 1: on a mass scale prior to this point. She is
Speaker 1: never a damsel in distress. She is very motivated. She
Speaker 1: is amazing. I feel like the main fault of this
Speaker 1: movie is not letting that inspire the women around her
Speaker 1: and making her. I feel like it almost is kind
Speaker 1: of oppressive to isolate her as the exception to the
Speaker 1: rule rather than someone who could inspire the women around her. Um.
Speaker 1: And plus the other thing I mean, I think the
Speaker 1: way that the Huns are portrayed is like flat out racist. Um,
Speaker 1: the fact that this movie was directed biasis at white
Speaker 1: men and majority written by them, and the more you
Speaker 1: learn about them, the less good it gets. Um, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of classic Disney faults going on here, but
Speaker 1: I think that they, in spite of a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: they managed to pull up. I think maybe they're most
Speaker 1: progressive movie to date at this time, and at least
Speaker 1: a lot of them. A lot of the cast are
Speaker 1: voiced by Asian actors, a lot, but not all of them.
Speaker 1: Not all of them, but more than I expected, honestly
Speaker 1: when I went through The Soldiers, right, yes, so you're like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey whatever. Like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff in this movie that's of
Speaker 1: its time, such as the Steve You Wonder ninety degrees
Speaker 1: collapse couldn't have happened in any year. But ultimately I
Speaker 1: think it's net positive. I would happily show this movie
Speaker 1: to a young person today. Um, I think it super
Speaker 1: holds up and it's kind of I don't know it.
Speaker 1: It definitely changed my perspectives at the time, and it's great.
Speaker 1: I love it. Three and a half nips to Go
Speaker 1: to Mulan one and a half ago photo realistically to
Speaker 1: Lei Shang so I think I will do three nips
Speaker 1: Mulan to to Mulan one to Lei Shang being portrayed
Speaker 1: as a leading man Asian love interest, which is pretty
Speaker 1: rare in all movies across all American like filmmaking history. Um,
Speaker 1: nipple really taken away for just a weird mash up
Speaker 1: of Asia they presented. Sure, I feel like they could
Speaker 1: have definitely done more research, just been a little bit
Speaker 1: more specific. Just um, I don't know, asked one Chinese
Speaker 1: person other than the one Chinese like woman of Chinese
Speaker 1: descent who worked on this movie. Yeah, or in the
Speaker 1: on the writing to well otherwise thoroughly enjoyable, really love
Speaker 1: this movie. Yeah, sure, well seta thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here, having me, having you. Um, what would
Speaker 1: you like to plug? Where can people follow you? I am?
Speaker 1: I am working on a lot of things, but none
Speaker 1: of them are pluggable, So you just follow me on
Speaker 1: my Twitter at Slowbear s l O B E A R. Nice, amazing,