1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday, everybody. I'm 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. One of the 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: things we talked about this week was Julio Teo. Yep, uh, 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: can I just tell you, I feel like this episode 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: ran a little bit long, and even so, I feel 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: like I left out so much stuff. Yeah. Yeah, he 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: had a lot more conflicts that we didn't go into 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: and arguments. There's a big argument that he had with 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: Larco that ended up with them both having to give 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: testimony about it because they've gotten a fight over a 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: piece of property that Larco had owned and Teo thought 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: the museum had taken possession of and there were some 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: things stored in it, and it was a big, essentially 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: like a public brawl. Once again, he kept getting in 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: these very public fights, which makes me nervous just thinking 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: about it. But but he was really passionate. One thing 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: that I found a little dismaying. Again we're dealing with 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: like English language only sources because I'm not fluent in Spanish, um, 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: and there is not a whole lot of mention of 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: his family life. We know he got married, and we 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: know that, uh, he and his wife had children together 23 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: that did not all survive to adulthood. I don't think. 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: But even in the things I read, the numbers shift around. 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Like I read several that said they had four children 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: one died and another that said they had six, and 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's new. Um, But we don't really know. 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: And I feel like most of his personal life is 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: kind of blurred in a little bit obscured because his 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: work was so important both to him and to his 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: country and to archaeology in general. Um. I also had 32 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: a very I don't know if it was quaint, but 33 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: there was a moment where I was looking through US 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: newspaper articles about him, and one of them had anglicized 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: his name to Julius, and they still spelled his last 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: name the way he spelled it, Teo. But I just 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: imagined every American reader calling him Julius Tello when he 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: was in the United States, because I'm sure it happened 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: a million times. But it's one of those tricky problems. 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: But the thing I love the most about him is 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: his approach to solving problems, like, oh, my job is 42 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: at the whim of political moves, I will become a 43 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: politician so I can make legislation. Oh, I can't do 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: this expedition unless I am associated with the science with 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: the College of Letters. Well, I'll just throw together a 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: thesis really quickly and present it. That's not a problem. 47 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: I love that. I loved it. I felt conflicted about 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: some of his story, Like I felt conflicted about the 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: Big Club public fights. There was a lot of But 50 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: also anytime I'm in a museum at this point, which 51 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: doesn't happen because there's a pandemic, right if I were 52 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: to be in a museum at this point, Like any 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: time I'm looking at an artifact that is not from 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: the place that the museum is, I'm always like, where 55 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: did you get this? And how? And like the people 56 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: who were criticizing him being like, we're afraid you're sending 57 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: our artifacts away, Like he was like, yeah, so it's Uh, 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's like a slightly 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: different nuance than say a US archaeological team showing up 60 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: somewhere and doing a dig and taking a bunch of 61 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: artifacts away, but still one that just like troubles me 62 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: a bit. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things 63 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: I think about. It came up when we did the 64 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: episode that you had researched on the Elgin Marbles, where 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: it's like, this really stinks they got taken away, but 66 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: they also may not have survived if they hadn't been 67 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: taken away. I think in his mind that was part 68 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: of it. Peru was so constantly like I mean, it 69 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: comes up in this episode, the museum would shut down 70 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: and no one would be taking care of things, and 71 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: sometimes for years at a time, and then it would reopen, 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: but it was at the whim of the government. And 73 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: I think in his eyes he was like, sure, places 74 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: like Harvard have plans and like they they are stable 75 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: and they will take care of these things. Um. And 76 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: he also did see it as kind of an ambassadorial effort, right, 77 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: people will learn about Peru from me a Peruvian, even 78 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: though he's not always there to interpret those artifacts. Um 79 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: and like said, as evidence by the fact that I'm 80 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: sure people were calling him Julius Tello, Uh, there was 81 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: gonna be some some lost information in that. So it 82 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: is it's very tricky. I mean he was also doing 83 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: some of that fund more excavation work, right, right, So 84 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: it very much becomes about like what moral and ethical 85 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: concessions are you willing to make for what you perceived 86 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: to be the greater good, even if that's not what 87 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: everyone else agrees is the greater good. This is why 88 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: humans are so complicated. Yeah, for sure. So we talked 89 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: finally about Emily de Chatela this week. Yeah. I you 90 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: mentioned that you had been working on it for a 91 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: long time. We had talked about her at multiple points 92 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: over I feel like more than a year. Uh. Sometimes 93 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: when we are talking about doing a custom episode as 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: part of a sponsorship, which this was not one of, 95 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: there will be a theme that we're brainstorming around. And 96 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: I remember her coming up as a theme around people 97 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: who were described as people's muses because she was described 98 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: as full taires mus But of course having her story 99 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: stand on its own instead of being like Voltaire's News, 100 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: I like that better me too, uh, And I it's 101 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: it's a little bit tricky. Vas so much that's written 102 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: about her is in context of her relationship with him, 103 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: because it is important, and they did, like I said 104 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: in the episode, I feel like they drove each other 105 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: to new levels of development of each of their individual works. 106 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: But it also kind of contributes to that problem that 107 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: she wasn't anything before him, and then she became a thing, 108 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: and it's like, no, she was already doing some really 109 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: interesting stuff. Right. One of the things that I didn't 110 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: mention in the episode, and I'll give people a quick 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: heads up, it's a little adult. Her writing on women's 112 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: sexual liberation is like two hundred years ahead of its time, 113 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: because she's very like, uh, it should be fine for 114 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: women to enjoy sex. It should be absolutely great for 115 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: people to have body positivity and sex positivity. And if 116 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: you are with someone and you're not getting that, you 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: should move on. It's not worth stay. Like she's very 118 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: completely like this is I don't I don't know why 119 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: you would ever stay in a relationship that wasn't enjoyable 120 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: to you, which is pretty interesting because we don't yeah 121 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: again in the seventeen thirties. Yeah. One of the things 122 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: that I really like about her is how it really 123 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: does seem like when her romantic relationships ended, like they 124 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: continued to be fond of each other and and in 125 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: in one and other's lives, because like I know for 126 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: my own personal history, if I break up with somebody, 127 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: it's because I did not like who they were as 128 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: a person anymore or else they did not like who 129 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: I was as a Breaston anymore, and like there has 130 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: not been a continued affectionate relationship in the vast majority 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: of cases. And for her to have been like, yeah, 132 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: Voltaire and I are not really together anymore. We still 133 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: live together, we still do all this academic works, that 134 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: problem right well, And even Voltaire is said, you know 135 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: those long twenty age letters back and forth with Richelieu. 136 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: He is said to have been a little suspicious initially 137 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: about them, uh, and then saw one and was like, oh, no, 138 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: you're literally just talking about physics. Okay, I'm not That's fine. 139 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: Um uh. Not that he should have had to have 140 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: read it, but um yeah, he realized how completely that was. 141 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: She was not carrying on any sort of additional romantic 142 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: relationship while she was with him, which I really loved 143 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: that she would just write for twenty pages about philosophy 144 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: and physics with her ex pretty great. Um I um. 145 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: It's there's an interesting aspect of researching her, and one 146 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: of the reasons it took me so long. There are 147 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: a couple of quite good books about her. Um. One 148 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: is that David Banana's book that we mentioned it's called 149 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: Passionate Minds, and it's actually about her and Voltaire. And 150 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: then there is another one by Judith Zenzer which came 151 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: out ust after that one, that is just about Emily, 152 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: and it's interesting how the two of them perceived certain 153 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: aspects of her life differently. David Bodanis in many ways 154 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: sees her. To my mind, this isn't a criticism of 155 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: his work in an almost romanticized view, like there tend 156 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: to be more polarizing approaches to her father loved her, 157 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: her mother was mean to her. She was amazing, and 158 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: not everyone saw it, whereas Zenser recognizes that she's clearly 159 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: a genius, but is a little less definitive in some 160 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: of those where it's like, no, her mom might not 161 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: have been that mad about it. She just knew like 162 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: this was not going to lead to a path that 163 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: she could sustain as an adult um and so it's 164 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: it's just an interesting comparison, you know. That's always the 165 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: to me, one of the most interesting and trickiest parts 166 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: of interpreting history is that there is interpretation in the 167 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: mix right, the way two people can re one historical document, 168 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: like one letter that someone wrote another person and come 169 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: away with very different views on what it was actually communicating. 170 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: Is to be part of the marvelous, sometimes frustrating, but 171 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: often really illuminating puzzle of history and its research. Yeah, 172 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us this week. We 173 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: hope you have a beautiful Friday and a beautiful weekend, 174 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: whatever form that takes for you, and we will see 175 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: you right back here next week. Stuff you Missed in 176 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For 177 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart 178 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 179 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: favorite shows.