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Speaker 1: Welcome to possible Now. Some people predict the future, others

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Speaker 1: shape it. My today's guest has spent his career doing

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Speaker 1: both and is someone I not only deeply respect, but

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Speaker 1: also genuinely enjoy talking to, because every conversation with him

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Speaker 1: leaves you thinking in new ways. Richard Tobakowala has spent

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Speaker 1: decades shaping how we understand business, marketing, and the future

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Speaker 1: of work. He became a global key leader at Publicis

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Speaker 1: Group and lived through the massive transformation and the area

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Speaker 1: of mergers, consolidation and disruption of the ad industry firsthand.

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Speaker 1: But to call him an ad executive would be like

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Speaker 1: calling Da Vinci a painter. It barely scratches the surface.

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Speaker 1: What I love most about Richard is that he never

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Speaker 1: stops evolving, always questioning, always rethinking. Since twenty nineteen, he

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Speaker 1: has embraced a new role as the thought leader, advisor,

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Speaker 1: guide and author, helping companies and individuals and navigate change.

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Speaker 1: His books Restoring the Soul of Business and Rethinking Work

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Speaker 1: offer deep insights. While his sub stack The Future does

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Speaker 1: not fit into the containers of the past and podcast

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Speaker 1: What Next are Must Follows. Risha has a rare ability

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Speaker 1: to make complex shifts in business and society feel clear,

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Speaker 1: even inevitable. He doesn't just talk about the future. He

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Speaker 1: helps us see it, understand it, and most importantly, navigate

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Speaker 1: this And today we get to tap into that wisdom. Risha,

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Speaker 1: my friend, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Christian, thank you for that amazing introduction. Now hopefully we'll

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Speaker 2: have a conversation that tries to make that introduction somewhat

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Speaker 2: sane and not insane. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, Risha, and we always kick off this

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Speaker 1: podcast with a personal question and hopefully information to share

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Speaker 1: with our audience. In your case, you worked with some

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Speaker 1: of the biggest names in business, You advise leaders, you

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Speaker 1: wrote books that challenge how we think about work and life.

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Speaker 1: But I'm couriers and I'm sure everybody else as well.

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Speaker 1: What's something small, maybe even ordinary, that brings you joy

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Speaker 1: every day?

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Speaker 2: Well, there are many, many things, And in fact, today

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Speaker 2: I was listening to a podcast that basically said, there

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Speaker 2: are three reasons people are happy. One of them happens

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Speaker 2: to be Oh, what a good life is, And it's

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Speaker 2: a combination of happiness, meaning, and new experiences, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting. But in the happiness phase, which is

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Speaker 2: the question you have. Yeah, they basically say, there are

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Speaker 2: big things that make you happy, like when you get married,

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Speaker 2: you get promoted, But the things that really make you

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Speaker 2: happy on long term basis is not the intensity of

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Speaker 2: the happiness but the frequency. So if you can have

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Speaker 2: fine happiness in small things, which is very much what

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Speaker 2: you basically mention at any given day, I have a

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Speaker 2: lot of small things, but the ones that seem to

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Speaker 2: be every day is I love working out, so I

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Speaker 2: either swim or run or you know, do some weights.

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Speaker 2: It's become a daily habit. It's almost an addiction, but

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Speaker 2: it gives me, you know, great joy. I also, interestingly

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Speaker 2: love reading, and I set aside an hour every day

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Speaker 2: to read regardless, I call it my reading hour. And

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Speaker 2: the other thing that gives me a lot of joy is,

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Speaker 2: you know, spending time with my family. So right now

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Speaker 2: I'm in New York. My wife is in India visiting

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Speaker 2: her mom, and I'm hanging out with our two daughters

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Speaker 2: in New York City.

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Speaker 3: And so those things, which is you.

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Speaker 2: Know, family, a little bit of keeping myself mentally sane

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Speaker 2: and physically saying so I basically talk about those three

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Speaker 2: as the physical, mental, and emotional operating systems, and I

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Speaker 2: try to basically utilize or experience them daily, and that

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Speaker 2: makes everything else, even when things don't go right. When

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Speaker 2: I was like in real business and you had tough clients, etc.

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Speaker 2: It made you do okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you can also follow those kind of routines when

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Speaker 1: you're traveling because you travel a lot, you do for decades.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I travel a lot. I keep track of my flights,

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Speaker 2: and as someone who is self employed and not working

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Speaker 2: for a company, last year, I did ninety five flights.

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Speaker 2: These are flight segments, not ninety five trips. And this year,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, we're five or six weeks, six

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Speaker 2: weeks into the year, I've already.

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Speaker 3: Done fifteen, oh man.

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Speaker 2: And so I have a feeling that I might track

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Speaker 2: and break my record, which was Publicist. My record when

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Speaker 2: a particular year at Publicist was one hundred and twenty five,

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Speaker 2: and I think I will break it this year with

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Speaker 2: what I can see, assuming health stays okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously this there's a good reason behind and quite

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Speaker 1: often I know from our previous talks, you know, you

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Speaker 1: try to combine business with some good private reasons, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you said, visiting your daughters in New York, or

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Speaker 1: do some troops as your wife. But mainly it's about business.

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Speaker 1: And I always interviewed once and I said, receiving so

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Speaker 1: many miles or points or whatever it's called, depending on

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Speaker 1: the airline, that's not an award because it means normally

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Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time on your own, yes,

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Speaker 1: sitting in airplanes and launches and hotel rooms, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and people know that I like dragging, like adding

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Speaker 2: stuff to every place I go, and I usually go

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Speaker 2: with one of usually with my wife, and so sometimes,

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Speaker 2: like recently, someone wanted me to come to Panama City

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Speaker 2: and they basically said, hey, we will fly you and

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Speaker 2: your wife. Will you come if we fly you and

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Speaker 2: your wife? So I said, okay, that's interesting, of course

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Speaker 2: I will. So I'm going at the end of this

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Speaker 2: month for three days to Patama City with her. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of interesting, which is my whole

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Speaker 2: stuff is talk about sort of work life balance, and

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Speaker 2: it's really work life integration more than work life balance.

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Speaker 2: And in my particular case, it's become sort of a

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Speaker 2: passion about making things happen. And then you know, with

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Speaker 2: people I'm passionate about, and that doesn't have to be

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Speaker 2: my family. It's basically friends and lots of people. You

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Speaker 2: and I have known each other, and so I like

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Speaker 2: spending time with people, which you can also do and

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Speaker 2: meet lots of different people as you go around the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for sharing this, Richard. People Also, as

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Speaker 1: I described in my introduction, people call you a consultant,

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Speaker 1: call you a futurist, a strategist, and of course more

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Speaker 1: than that, and all of those fit. That's my impression.

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Speaker 1: But if you had to choose just one title that

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Speaker 1: describes what you're currently doing, what would it be.

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Speaker 2: So it's actually a sentence versus a word, and the

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Speaker 2: sentence is I help people see, think and feel differently

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Speaker 2: about how to grow themselves, their team and their business

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Speaker 2: or some combination of those. So the idea really is

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Speaker 2: it's about growth, but to help either an individual or

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Speaker 2: a team or a company grow. But the value I

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Speaker 2: add is I leave them feeling different about how they

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Speaker 2: were thinking about things, but not different in a way

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Speaker 2: that they're oh, I didn't think about it completely correct.

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Speaker 3: What am I going to do?

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Speaker 2: It's just say, if you look at it from this

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Speaker 2: particular angle, you might find a new type of solution.

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Speaker 2: And so what I try to basically do is sort

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Speaker 2: of give people a gift if that's what it is

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Speaker 2: of forty two years of my experience, and try to

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Speaker 2: do it in every interaction. And usually what that leaves

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Speaker 2: them with is I feel I have grown. So usually

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Speaker 2: when I talk to a company or a person or

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Speaker 2: a team, you know, my idea whether I have been

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Speaker 2: productive and successful is if they think they have grown

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Speaker 2: due to that interaction.

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Speaker 1: Right right, And obviously quite often this is just a

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Speaker 1: hidden kind of you know, issued solve or solution to find,

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Speaker 1: but you're definitely one who digs it out for them

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Speaker 1: in their individual case.

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Speaker 2: And if there was a word, if there was a

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Speaker 2: single word, yeah, you know I've had been forced a

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Speaker 2: single word, not a sentence, it would be reinventing, reinventing.

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Speaker 2: I like that. I like that.

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Speaker 1: I like that. So we definitely come to your recent

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Speaker 1: books and your key messages along with that in a second.

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Speaker 1: But you also spent decades in the ad industry, especially

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Speaker 1: with agencies. In the nineties and early two thousands, the

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Speaker 1: ad industry saw massive consolidations, mergers, acquisitions, everything shrinking into

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Speaker 1: a few players and it's history repeating itself right now?

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Speaker 1: Or do you see significant differences? I mean, especially when

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Speaker 1: we think about the agency world, the consultant the world.

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Speaker 1: You are self employed, you run your own business. Now,

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Speaker 1: is this so different compared to what you've seen years ago?

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Speaker 3: Well, what it is is consolidation has always happened, and

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Speaker 3: in some cases consolidation has happened and then there's been deconsolidation.

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Speaker 3: There were these big, massive conclomerations of like General Electric, right,

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Speaker 3: which then deconsolidated. There was the original Travelers, which included

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Speaker 3: City and a few other places, and they deconsolidated. On

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Speaker 3: the other hand, because of global markets, because of the

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Speaker 3: cost of technology, because of the importance of data, the

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Speaker 3: need for the buyer to have scale based pricing cost advantages,

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Speaker 3: there has been, I think, definitely in the marketing services industry,

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Speaker 3: a major drive to consolidation. And I was just reading

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Speaker 3: a statement which I believe is true because I not

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Speaker 3: only read the statement, but the option to speak to

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Speaker 3: this gentleman in person when we were together about two

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Speaker 3: three weeks ago. And in the advertising business in the

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: ninety percent of all the pitches were won by the

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Speaker 3: top four companies, and in the last quarter, and I

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Speaker 3: don't define, I don't exactly what the last quarter is.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was a fourth quarter of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent were won by the top four. I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about the bigger pitches, not like you know, the

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Speaker 2: local store, et cetera. And now those four are becoming three.

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Speaker 2: And you used to even remember among big holding companies

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Speaker 2: used to have. There used to be like seven and

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Speaker 2: you would have names like Havas and then so and

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Speaker 2: now look like it's going to be an omnicopg WPP

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Speaker 2: and publicists world. But that's one way of looking at it.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, because marketing services has become

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Speaker 2: very broad, I would say it's also an Accentia world

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Speaker 2: and a Deloittte world, right, And on the edges you

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Speaker 2: might say it's a Google and Meta world too.

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Speaker 3: So we're back to the seven.

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Speaker 2: But the seven are no longer necessarily the agencies holding companies.

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Speaker 2: Three of them are agency holding companies that have survived, right,

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Speaker 2: And there are four other providers who work and deliver

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of marketing services to clients.

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Speaker 1: Okay, my impression was similar. But at the same time

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Speaker 1: I also felt that the independents, which the bigger independent

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Speaker 1: agencies stag Wold for example, Yeah, Horzon and many more,

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Speaker 1: are more visible than ten twenty years ago.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So what basically happens is the way I defied

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Speaker 2: them is you have these and it's a chapter in

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Speaker 2: my book, not specifically to the advertising industry, but where

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Speaker 2: things are going to go. I basically say that what

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Speaker 2: we're going to have is the ecosystem of most industries

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Speaker 2: is going to be whales and plankton, and then occasionally

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Speaker 2: there's going to be a squid. So the way I

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Speaker 2: describe a whale in a plankton is YouTube is a whale.

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Speaker 2: If you think about it, the creator who makes money

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Speaker 2: and uses YouTube is a plankton, and the ecosystem feeds

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Speaker 2: off each other. The wheel takes thirty percent of the

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Speaker 2: revenue of the plankton. The plankton could not be global

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Speaker 2: without the whale. And then once in a while there are,

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Speaker 2: like is a squid. So while there is this consolidation

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Speaker 2: at the top, to your point, there also happens to

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Speaker 2: be a little bit different. But what happens is the

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Speaker 2: reason I call it a squid, and I don't. It's

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Speaker 2: something in between a wheel and a plankton, like a

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Speaker 2: half wheel half blankton is Being in the middle without

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Speaker 2: differentiation is death, okay, because you neither have the scale

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Speaker 2: based advantages of the large players nor the agility and

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Speaker 2: expertise of the two three ten person company. So if

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Speaker 2: you see it today, Stagwell s for bran Tech, those

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Speaker 2: are three companies, right, so off the three from outside.

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Speaker 2: And again I'm no longer in the industry, so I'm

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Speaker 2: not one hundred percent sure what I'm saying. Sometimes I

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Speaker 2: don't pay that much attention. It appears that S four

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Speaker 2: try to be a scale based player without scale and

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Speaker 2: has suffered deeply because of it, and Stagwell has tried

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Speaker 2: to be more like a squid and has done okay

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Speaker 2: because of it. And I'm not sure exactly where bran

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Speaker 2: Tech is. But what you're basically seeing is often what

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Speaker 2: a client might ask.

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Speaker 3: Is or in any particular company, can I get.

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Speaker 2: The smart people who are available in small places at

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Speaker 2: independent and can I then bundle them with these large players?

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Speaker 3: And so then if you're a middle player.

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Speaker 2: You have to explain what you're doing in the movie, right,

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Speaker 2: and so I think what you're going to have is, yes,

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Speaker 2: there will be continued there will be the middle level.

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Speaker 2: But everywhere, including in the world of Germany, and Germany's

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Speaker 2: industrial base was really built on the middle, the middle

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Speaker 2: stat is having big problems because you have to be

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Speaker 2: big or you have to be small. Anything in between

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to work. And I think that's what you're

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Speaker 2: basically seeing is one of the reasons, by the way,

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Speaker 2: that you're seeing a lot of middle sized companies being acquired. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so just in the last year, among many things, you know,

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Speaker 2: Public has acquired firms like Mars and Influential, and each

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Speaker 2: of those were not small companies. There were five hundred

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Speaker 2: plus companies, five hundred employees, two thousand employee companies. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Mars was very big. And so what happens is people

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Speaker 2: are beginning to realize that they have to be stay connected.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of the things I've sort of learned.

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Speaker 2: Even me, who I works like, I'm a one person

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Speaker 2: quote unquote company, if that's me, But if you see

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Speaker 2: who I work with and how I work, I'm a

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Speaker 2: plank and I stay very close to the whales, including

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Speaker 2: the clients who are whales, because by myself I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be able to survive.

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Speaker 1: And the fun part is that we know that the

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Speaker 1: next wave, the next development, the next change, is ahead

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Speaker 1: of us. So maybe just the beginning of this wave

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Speaker 1: with this type of consolidation, but it will change again

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Speaker 1: in a couple of years time. This is what we know,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not know exactly how it will look like then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And in fact, if I were to basically say

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Speaker 2: where the advantage is going to go, yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: the advantage is going to go to the small players.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes, would you agree shifts just shifting priorities and shifting opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a reason, and the reason basically is is

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Speaker 2: because the small players. And it's one of the things

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Speaker 2: in my book that between twenty twenty March and twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three March in the United States, all the net

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Speaker 2: employment growth was in companies with less than a thousand people,

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Speaker 2: all of it okay, And today apparently in a matter

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Speaker 2: is going to lay off five percent of its non

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Speaker 2: productive players. The demand for software engineers has fallen, and

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Speaker 2: so what you're basically beginning to see is AI is

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Speaker 2: now the stone that allows David to bring down Goliath.

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Speaker 2: And what people don't realize is AI is actually an

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Speaker 2: advantage to the small versus the large. Yes, you need

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Speaker 2: the large scale en videos and Taiwan Semiconductor, but I

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Speaker 2: can prove to any com company that I have better

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Speaker 2: AI than a Fortune five hundred company. Who is it,

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Speaker 2: you know, either Google or someone like that. And that's

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Speaker 2: primarily because it's only cost twenty dollars a month two

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars a month to access world class technology.

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Speaker 1: So you've mentioned AI, You've mentioned the potential benefits for

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Speaker 1: the smaller and not just the bigger. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about this. In your first book, which I think you

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Speaker 1: published during COVID, Restoring the Soul of Business, you argue

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Speaker 1: that companies thrive when they balance data and technology with

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Speaker 1: human intuition, creativity, and empathy to create meaningful growth and innovation.

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Speaker 1: In today's AI driven world, do you think businesses are

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Speaker 1: getting better or worse at striking that balance?

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Speaker 2: So I believe what will happen is businesses were getting

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Speaker 2: better at striking that balance and then recently have sort

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Speaker 2: of gone backwards for a variety of reasons. But they

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Speaker 2: are now waking up in one of the reasons they

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Speaker 2: went backward is because a they believed that they could

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Speaker 2: use AI to replace people. They began to believe that

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Speaker 2: the labor capital or labor to people who hire employee

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Speaker 2: to company balance of power was going back to the company.

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Speaker 2: And they basically began to believe that for a variety

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Speaker 2: of reasons. Even before the recent elections in the United States,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty prevalent all over the world that DEI was

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Speaker 2: a bad word. Okay, So the whole idea was power

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Speaker 2: is coming back to me. AI will let me replace you.

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Speaker 2: DEI is a bad word, and so there was this

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Speaker 2: tendency to go back to the bad ways or old ways.

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Speaker 2: It may not be bad ways, I ins them bad

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Speaker 2: ways when we're old ways. I think every single company

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Speaker 2: who's doing that is going to get the shock of

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Speaker 2: their lives in twenty twenty five. I'm not even saying

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Speaker 2: twenty six, twenty twenty seven. They are going to get

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Speaker 2: a shock because almost no senior management, no very few

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Speaker 2: senior management know what's about a hit him, okay, in

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Speaker 2: the world of work, and including in the world of AI. So,

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Speaker 2: for instance, here are three things that they say which

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Speaker 2: are absolute crap crap, Okay, and they go around saying

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Speaker 2: it and my whole stuff is like, someone's going to

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Speaker 2: stop you. So Number one, I am going to have

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Speaker 2: an AI strategy to succeed. That's number one. Number Two,

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Speaker 2: I am going to use AI as a differentiator. Number three,

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Speaker 2: everybody come back to the office five days a week

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Speaker 2: or you're fired. So okay, thank you very much. Now

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Speaker 2: let me understand this simple questions.

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Speaker 3: Simple thing.

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Speaker 2: You as a company go running around saying your personalization

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Speaker 2: agile and flexible, and now what you've just basically done

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Speaker 2: is you've forced everybody with a one size fits all

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Speaker 2: model to come back to the office regardless of the

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Speaker 2: client needs. It's regardless of the seniority, regardless of their

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Speaker 2: life issues, regardless of what actually it is. So the

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Speaker 2: fact you're basically saying you're going to be agile, flexible,

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Speaker 2: and personalized, but you're not going to do it for

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Speaker 2: the people who actually create all those agile, personal and

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Speaker 2: flexible that's BS, which meant you don't know what agile,

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Speaker 2: flexible and personalization is. Number two is this whole idea

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Speaker 2: of I'm king and my whole thing or queen, my

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Speaker 2: old stuff is, Hey, ladies and gentlemen, the issue is

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Speaker 2: not that people don't want to come back to the office.

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Speaker 2: I'm a big believer and in person interaction. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: have to be in the office, says I remind people.

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Speaker 2: When I was in the company, when we wanted to

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Speaker 2: creative brainstorming, we'd go to off sites. When we wanted

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Speaker 2: to learn and network. We've got to things like possible

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Speaker 2: or bars and network and restaurants. So none of the things.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, there's no water coolers. Also at

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Speaker 2: these places. This whole idea of people running around to

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Speaker 2: a water cooler, those also don't exist. So this is

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Speaker 2: total bs, total bs. Right, So my old stuff is

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Speaker 2: that that isn't happening. So that's the other the city

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Speaker 2: thing that doesn't matter. But here's a problem. It's not

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Speaker 2: the place that they're not coming back to. They don't

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Speaker 2: want to come back to you, lady and gentlemen, because

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Speaker 2: we've entered an age of de bossification.

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Speaker 3: Nobody wants you.

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Speaker 2: That's your issue if you're if you're not in the office,

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Speaker 2: people will come back, right, which is which is one

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Speaker 2: of the interesting things.

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Speaker 1: So obviously, boss, how do you describe is not the

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Speaker 1: best thing in the world. Being a typical boss. So,

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Speaker 1: but let's talk about leaders. I've heard recently a great

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Speaker 1: interview where do you make the point between those two

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Speaker 1: groups of people and a boss and a leader and

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Speaker 1: senior executives. That's called it like this, So please explain

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Speaker 1: this in a way that everybody really understands.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So here's what happens.

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Speaker 2: So a boss is somebody who at the core operates

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Speaker 2: through a zone of control. And by a zone of control,

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Speaker 2: they basically monitor, measure, allocate, delegate and check it. That's

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Speaker 2: what they do. And by the way, you need every

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Speaker 2: leader needs to have some of those boss like tendencies.

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Speaker 2: You can't operate a company without some of those. But

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Speaker 2: many of these things, people who are bosses spend seventy

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Speaker 2: eighty ninety percent of their time doing that. What does

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Speaker 2: the leader do? Yes, the leader needs to do some

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Speaker 2: of that, maybe twenty five to thirty percent of their time.

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Speaker 2: A leader bills, creates, solves, sells, inspires, guides. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: my basic belief is if we had a few more leaders,

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Speaker 2: people would go to where the leaders are, whether they're

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Speaker 2: in an office or in a cave. But you can

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Speaker 2: basically be a boss, give free food in an exotic

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Speaker 2: office somewhere and people won't come. The problem simply is,

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Speaker 2: and that's one of the examples I give is the

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Speaker 2: animals have left the cage. Regardless of what meat you

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Speaker 2: put in there, they're not coming back.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so get over get over it.

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Speaker 2: The whole idea is it's a rejection of the old way,

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Speaker 2: So just get over it.

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Speaker 1: And then you're saying it's independent from the size of

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Speaker 1: a company, you know, with more reporting and controlling.

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Speaker 2: Its incompletely independent of the size of a company.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I've done so much research with

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Speaker 2: so much data, including modern what's going on? So let

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Speaker 2: me give you three pieces of information which everyone's hiding

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Speaker 2: from everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Number one, many of these companies who are forcing people

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Speaker 2: back five days into the office really aren't expecting that

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Speaker 2: to happen. They're using it to do severance lay off

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Speaker 2: without severans. That's what they're doing. That's what Amazon was doing,

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Speaker 2: That's what everybody was doing. Okay. Now let me give

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Speaker 2: you another thing. According to analysis that I've seen, Omnicom

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Speaker 2: and IPG and maybe WPP grew about twenty percent since

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Speaker 2: COVID to now in headcount and basically got rid of

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Speaker 2: between twenty and thirty percent of their real life state. Okay, okay, So,

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Speaker 2: by the way, if everybody comes into the office, they

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Speaker 2: don't fit. That's already happening at Amazon. So there's a

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Speaker 2: bullshit like your physical infrastructure doesn't defend it. You're trying

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Speaker 2: to get people. But here's the other one that most

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Speaker 2: people don't realize.

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Speaker 3: Probe.

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Speaker 2: I went to all these people and said, are you

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Speaker 2: really making one size fits model for everybody?

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Speaker 3: And they said not really.

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Speaker 2: In most companies, about thirty percent of the teams are

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Speaker 2: allowed to do whatever they want. Okay, and so in fact,

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Speaker 2: this is not a one size fits model, right, it's

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Speaker 2: completely ps what they're saying about. Unfortunately, the way they're

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Speaker 2: doing it is they're alienating people for no reason because

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Speaker 2: they're not actually following such draconian things. There's almost no

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Speaker 2: company that's following such a draconian thing that their announcement.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time I've heard of companies putting

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Speaker 2: out a PR statement that's worse than their product. Usually

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Speaker 2: you put out a PR statement that's better than your product.

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Speaker 3: Yep, right, None of.

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Speaker 2: These leaders are doing anything like five days a week

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Speaker 2: for everybody.

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Speaker 3: None of them.

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Speaker 2: And I remind also the leaders because I used to

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Speaker 2: be one.

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Speaker 3: Remember I told you.

435
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: One hundred and forty four flights a year, or one

436
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five flights. Where do you think I was.

437
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: I wasn't in the office when I was flying around.

438
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: I wasn't flying into our offices. Yeah, once in a

439
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: while I might flew into Paris because my boss was there.

440
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 2: But I wasn't flying around. I was flying to see

441
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: people and clients. Never in the office, right. I was

442
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: going to conferences to learn things.

443
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: I was doing all kinds of stuff.

444
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: So the reality of it is most of the leaders

445
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: don't operate out of the office that they're forcing people

446
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: back into. So when you actually listen to them, you

447
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: begin to realize how craddy the thinking is. And then

448
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: the other stuff that's really important is I don't even

449
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 2: care where somebody works. My basic belief is if I

450
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: was starting a company tomorrow, I do two things. Number One,

451
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: I probably pull my team together all together for maybe

452
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: twenty five thirty days every day besides the weekends ease.

453
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to build relationships, understand culture, etc. And then

454
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: I say, okay, we'll get together maybe one week every quarter,

455
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: let's go forth and prosper right, But the other one

456
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: is this. This is the other thing that's important. Ask

457
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 2: any C level executive with everything they know today, including

458
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: the rise of AI, four generations at work, modern technology marketplaces,

459
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: would any company start being located in one place by

460
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: expensive real estate, limiting their talent to people who can

461
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: move into that real estate. Zero And that's the companies

462
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: they're going to be competing with in the future. So

463
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: my whole thing is strategically you're wrong, Emotionally you're wrong.

464
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: Talent whyse you're wrong, And by the way, where you

465
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: work is irrelevant to the future of work anyway, So

466
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: you don't even understand what that is going on. And

467
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: now you're saying you want to be a leader.

468
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: This is great to hear in many ways because I

469
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: one hundred percent agree with you. And also because as

470
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: we started possible at the company behind during COVID and

471
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: of COVID, it was exactly the situation described. We had

472
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: no office. We technically still don't have our office. I

473
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: mean now we got acquiet last year, so now, of

474
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: course the company can provide an office, but my people

475
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: are not going back three, four or five days a week.

476
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: We are still a remote team as we started and

477
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: we started and make this created this business without any

478
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: physical office, and we met maybe once a quarter in person.

479
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: And this is exactly how you described it, right.

480
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: And by the way, the two other things that are

481
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: very interesting because because of my graduate degree advanced mathematics,

482
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: everything I do remember a story and spreadsheet. I have

483
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: the story, but I got better spreadsheets than anybody with data, yes,

484
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: three pieces of data. I just read the most recent

485
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: McKinsey study. Across the United States, the average number of

486
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: people white collar workers go to work is three point

487
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: two out of five days. After all this noise, it's

488
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: still only three point two or of five. That's number one.

489
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: Number two is a majority of the fast growing companies

490
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: and small companies tend to have zero to one day.

491
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: And so one of the reasons you see these large

492
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: companies bring like donkeys, okay, is because they're no longer

493
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: growing and they think by forcing people back is the

494
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: way they're going to grow. It's exactly the opposite, because

495
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: we are competitors are agile and fast and they're slow

496
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: and moving like I don't know what.

497
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we touched a bit on AI and as

498
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: you can imagine was possible coming up very soon in

499
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks time. It is on our agenda

500
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: as well. Everybody wants that, everybody needs an opportunity to

501
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: talk about this. My impression is there's so much noise

502
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: around still telling people what the changes might be in

503
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: the future, but there is a gap of real case studies,

504
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: real learnings, especially from the last couple of years or

505
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: weeks or months. And you, I'm sure you ask for

506
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: you inside so many times on AI? Is there a

507
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: question which comes up over and over and what could

508
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: be a question people are not asking about AI that

509
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: they should be So maybe give us also a kind

510
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: of advice and our audience for the event in a

511
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 1: couple of weeks time, how we should cover this.

512
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: I will basically say, hey, look, here are my five

513
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: points out make on AI. Number one is, despite everything

514
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: we have heard, AI is still under hyped.

515
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: It's not overhyped.

516
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: In the forty years that I've been working here, including

517
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: seeing everything from digital to internet to mobile, this thing

518
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: is bigger than all of those things combined and moving

519
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: much f and I have a lot of data to

520
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: show that The second is AI itself is going to

521
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: be a commodity like electricity, and companies aren't going to

522
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: go running around saying we're differentiating ourselves because of AI.

523
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: No company will be able to operate without AI.

524
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: But no company will differentiate themselves with AI because I

525
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: don't go around and saying reshart to back while at

526
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: LLC is better than Christian MUKA LLC right because I

527
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: use electricity. Well, Christian also uses electricity unless he's in

528
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: a romantic dinner with his wife with candlelight. He doesn't

529
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: work through candlelight. Right. So when people say AI is

530
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: going to be my differentiator, I said, really, well, everybody

531
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: is going to have exactly the same AI and usually

532
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: from the same seven l N models. Okay, you put

533
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: some of your unique data. That's number two. So AI

534
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: is under hyped. Aas don't going to be a differentiator.

535
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: The third one is this that in effect what a

536
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: lot of people are rightly focusing on. And there are

537
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: some initial experiences by the way of AI A making

538
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: things more efficient and be making things more effective. So

539
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: for instance, it could do versioning of creative much faster,

540
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: and it could actually make much more interesting personalized messaging

541
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: to even have more effective So you'll be cheaper in

542
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: producing and more impactful with the customer consumer viewer. So

543
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: those are important, and there are lots of cases and

544
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 2: they will continue to grow, I believe. And this is

545
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: one that I was asked to run a workshop at

546
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: the ib ALM where you and I met most recently,

547
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 2: I mean we met me often, but most recently ten

548
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: twelve days ago, And my thing there to a bunch

549
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: of marketers and other leaders was just the third one

550
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: that we should be focusing on, not just the first two.

551
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: First two are important, by the way, there's the third one.

552
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: We are not focusing en half off, which is not

553
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: just effectiveness and efficiency, but existential opportunity and risk.

554
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: And what do I mean by existential opportunity and risk?

555
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: I think AI is such a huge deal that it

556
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: will allow a company to rethink its entire business, but

557
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: it will also put itself at risk with someone who

558
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: starts with a fresheet of paper. So someone who starts

559
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: with a fresheet of paper and says I've got modern marketplaces,

560
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: modern talent streams, and modern AI, I'm coming after you,

561
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: they might come up with some very interesting ideas to

562
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: take you on. And this is the version, This is

563
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: the equivalent, it's not the exact equivalent.

564
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: Today.

565
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: I would say there's a very good likelihood that five

566
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: years from now there will be only three significant automobile

567
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: companies in the world, and their names are going to

568
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: basically be Tesla, Uber, and Weimo from Google and maybe

569
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: some Chinese equivalent of that. Okay, but in the US

570
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: it would basically be those three Ten years ago, General Motors,

571
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: Ford Teyota were not thinking about any of these three companies, correct,

572
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: And all of these three companies basically said, ask the

573
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: following three questions, and these are called existential questions. So

574
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: number one is the future of cars electric or internal

575
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: combustion engine? Could the future of cars not be about

576
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: hardware but about software? And third is do you actually

577
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: need to buy a car? So think of people running

578
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: these companies, what were their background? Hardware engineers, salespeople, and

579
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: financial people. So somebody came around and said, I'm starting

580
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: with the sheet of paper. I'm going to come and

581
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: disrupt you. And today, even without the Trump bump, Tesla

582
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: was worth five hundred billion dollars more than the next

583
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: ten companies in the space, and the market has seen it.

584
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: Now that's going to happen with AI in every category.

585
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: And so the idea that I basically say is, don't

586
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: just think about efficiency. Just don't think about effectiveness, think

587
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: about existential opportunity to reimagine your business or existential threat.

588
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: And in the digital world, the example I gave is

589
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: very simple. In the digital world, in two thousand and two,

590
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: I gave a talk to the newspaper society of some

591
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: newspaper deal that was invited to speak to, and I

592
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: basically said, ladies and gentlemen, you must readvent your industry

593
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: because your real competition is this company that you're not

594
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: paying attention to called Google. And it laughed at me.

595
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 2: They were much bigger at that time. Okay, Google hadn't

596
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: gone public. It was just before Google had gone public.

597
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: Two years later, Google was bigger than the entire newspaper industry.

598
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: Now it's very interesting. Let's suppose you when the newspaper

599
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 2: industry and I told you about digital, and you thought

600
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: about digital like AI, Oh, that's really cool.

601
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: How do I make it more efficient and effective?

602
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 2: So? How do I make my printing presses work faster?

603
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: And how do I make my trucks the logistics of

604
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: my truck moves so that they can deliver newspapers faster

605
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: with less fuel. That's being efficient and effective. But the

606
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: existential risk an opportunity was you don't need trucks or

607
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: printing presses, right, And that is what most companies are

608
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: not paying attention to, which is you're making an existing

609
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: business model more efficient and effective. Yes, you need to

610
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: do that, but could it be that your business model

611
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 2: itself makes no sense in the new world.

612
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: So you also said, AI of course provides a different

613
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: level of access to knowledge, and it will be cost free.

614
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: Knowledge will be completely free, so it'll be absolutely free.

615
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: So what does it means for all type of advisors

616
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: in today's world? And we talk about the agency world,

617
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: the consultancy world, what about yourself as a kind of advisor.

618
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: So yes, what basically happens is the good news is well,

619
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: knowledge will be free, insight, intelligence, and wisdom will not

620
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: that's number one. Yeah, But there is a real threat

621
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 2: and it's one of the reasons that the advising part

622
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: of my business is becoming smaller and smaller because I've

623
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: sort of decided that that might be the one that's

624
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: most under threat, and some other parts of it are

625
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: currently growing, but even they might come under threat. You know,

626
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: my book could be better written maybe by the next

627
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: generation of you know, CHFGPT or whatever. But I'll tell

628
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: you what the big difference is. This, what is basically

629
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: happening is if you're most senior and let's say a

630
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: consulting company and the consulting companies have three things that

631
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: are really really I mean, consulting companies have lots of

632
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: skill sets. But let's look at a McKenzie or a

633
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: Bane or a BCG, all of whom I know well.

634
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: And they're amazing companies with amazing talent. But what do

635
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 2: they actually sell. They sell three things. One is they

636
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: sell a body of knowledge and case studies through power

637
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: point techs. Second is they sell CYA cover your ass

638
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: the sea already knows what they want. They need to

639
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: cover your ass person, okay. And the third thing is

640
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 2: they sell the crystallized intelligence of their senior people who

641
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: have seen so many things that they can connect dots

642
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: and new ways. So I believe the connect dots and

643
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 2: new ways and cover your ass part of their business

644
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: is safe as long as there's still human beings running

645
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: these companies, right. But the other part of their business,

646
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: which is selling knowledge and databases and putting them all

647
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: together in interesting ways. That is a significant threat. And

648
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: to see that, and you already begin to see it.

649
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: Almost every consulting company has delayed by a year many

650
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: of the new people that they're taking in and have

651
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: reduced the number of partners. So you're already seeing that.

652
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: But to really see the threat to the white collar industry,

653
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: you don't have to basically go to the consulting companies.

654
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: You have to go to the law firms. Because the

655
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 2: law firms are completely based on knowledge that's gone before, right,

656
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: so everything is based on precedent. And what they had

657
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: is they had lots of young associates who came from

658
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: law school who spent five, six, seven years learning the

659
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: law and precedent, and then they became you know, junior

660
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: partner or whatever the hierarchy was. Now their whole stuff

661
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: is I got chat, GPT or more importantly, what's really

662
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: impressive for those people who haven't tried it, you know,

663
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 2: try right now deep research from open Air.

664
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: I haven't tried that.

665
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 2: I've been playing because that came out about four five

666
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: years ago and I've been running around, but I've been

667
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: using prior to that, Google Deep Research and they can

668
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: turn out such amazing decks so fast. So in effect,

669
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: I think the law firms and the consulting firms will

670
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: still be needed, but they'll be much smaller. Okay. And

671
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: here's the issue, the fact that consulting firms are not

672
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: adding significant number of employees when they is a littually

673
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 2: a bonanza.

674
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 3: Of work because of AI.

675
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: So every company is asking them, the McKenzie and main

676
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: and BCG about AI. So the demand is going through

677
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: the roof, but they're not seeing the same amount of

678
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: people being hired. So you're seeing already and there's demand

679
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: for AI will not go forever through the roof.

680
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 3: Then what happens?

681
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: So I would basically say, I would almost you know.

682
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: And that's that was a theme in my first book.

683
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: So my first book had a chapter called how to

684
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 2: upgrade your Mental Operating System. I now basically advise people

685
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: how to upgrade your mental and emotional operating system. Okay,

686
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: because the left part of our brain is going to

687
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: be done easier by the machine. And I have an

688
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: advanced degree in math, I know it's going to be

689
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: done easier by the machine. The part of the business

690
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: that's messy, which has to do with people and emotions

691
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: and provenance and design and feeling will be what we'll

692
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 2: still be at. And so it'll be how AI plus

693
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: HI work. But HI is not just human intelligence, but

694
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 2: it's human intuition, human imagination, human insight. So to that,

695
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: and then the last thing I would sell people is

696
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: because a lot of people say, how do you future

697
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: proof your career? So I said, here's what I'm trying

698
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: to future proof my career. And I haven't had a

699
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: forty two year career, but I hope to have another

700
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen year career. And I'm always scared that

701
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: I'll be irrelevant tomorrow. And I said, the fact that

702
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 2: I'm running around scared to depth that I'll become irrelevant

703
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: tomorrow and you, who are in your mid thirties and

704
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 2: forties aren't makes me either think that I'm stupid or

705
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 2: you're not awake one of those two. And maybe I'm stupid, Okay,

706
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: But I said, yes, what I would do, I would

707
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: basically spend time to learn the sixties and the six

708
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: sies I tell people is cognition. Spend an hour a

709
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: day learning creativity, which is connecting dots and due ways.

710
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: What you do right Curiosity by asking new questions. And

711
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: the other is we're going to be working with other

712
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: people in these alien machines, so collaboration, convincing, which is

713
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: how do you sell because everyone will have the same data.

714
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: And the last thing, which is kind of very old school,

715
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 2: is go back to school and learn how to write

716
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: and speak because you have to be a really good

717
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: writer a very good speaker otherwise people will read the

718
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: crap that comes out of these machines.

719
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: To be a storyteller, right, this is what we still love.

720
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: So obviously we already moved into this core area of

721
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: your new book, rethinking work for those who haven't had

722
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: a chance to bite yet or to read it yet,

723
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: tell people what is this all about? And also covering

724
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: the five forces, the five trends you came up with,

725
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, which defines that huge impact to all of

726
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: today's work.

727
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 3: So very much.

728
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: Simply, the reason I wrote the book is because I

729
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: began to realize that there are three things that.

730
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: Keep people happy.

731
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the things that keep people happy tend to

732
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: be physical and mental health, quality of relationships, and meaning

733
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: and purpose at work. So if you have a good job,

734
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 2: you're getting paid well, you enjoy yourself you're pretty good. Relationships,

735
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: you're not pretty good life. To have a good life

736
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: is pretty high. What I also began to realize is

737
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 2: that if you have a meaningful and good job, you're

738
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: likely to live longer and you tend to have better relationships.

739
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 2: So work becomes very central. But work will change more

740
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: between twenty twenty and twenty thirty than it has in

741
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: the previous fifty years. And people basically are fixating on

742
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: one thing, which is the least important of the five shifts,

743
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: which is the impact on COVID on where you worked.

744
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: And so this book basically says, wake up and smell

745
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: the coffee. Work is changing, and even if COVID never

746
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: happened and no one thought about where you worked, work

747
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 2: would change dramatically this decade, more than it has before.

748
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 2: So that's where identify the five forces, and the five

749
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 2: forces are one is societal changes, like for instance, aging populations.

750
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: The only group that's growing older outside of Africa is

751
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: older people, so you know, they're twenty million people over

752
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: eighty in Japan, over three hundred million people over sixty

753
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: in China, eleven two hundred people turn sixty five every

754
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: day in the United States. The second is declining populations

755
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 2: outside of seven countries. This year, the population of the

756
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: most countries will be the same or decline. In the

757
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: United States, it takes two point one children per mother

758
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: to keep the population the same. The people who currently

759
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: live in the United States, they make one point six

760
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: children per mother. So if the United States population is

761
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: not going to decline from three thirty three to two

762
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million in the next twenty five to

763
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,959
Speaker 2: thirty five years, you're going to have to let it immigrants.

764
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: So nobody's talking about this, which is like, hey, without immigration,

765
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: the US becomes a fast declining country. And you say,

766
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? I said, go look at

767
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: Korea point eight children per mother. You look at one

768
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: point one the demographic problem of China, look at what's

769
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: happening in northern Europe, even Spain one point three. Why

770
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: that has to do with work is if you have

771
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: fewer and fewer workers, and you have older and older workers,

772
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: you might want to think about how you think about work.

773
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: And then there's mindset differences. So young people would like

774
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: the money and power of the old people, but they

775
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: don't want to be like the old people. So they

776
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: basically believe people who are seasoned like me, I call

777
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: myself seasoned versus old. May have made too many fostian

778
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: bargains to have a good life. We gave up too

779
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 2: much to get what we had, And there's stuff is

780
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: we can do it differently. But here's the other one.

781
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: Seventy six percent of gen Z want to work for themselves.

782
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: They don't want to work for a bus. So there's

783
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: these these changes. There's obviously technology changes, of which AI

784
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 2: just happens to be one, there's lots more. Third is marketplaces,

785
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: the ability for you and I to do things like

786
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: plug into marketplaces. You are basically utilizing a technology called riverside,

787
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: which is the same thing that I use. We're basically talking.

788
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know whether you're in New zeal

789
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: in Miami or where you are. But the reality of

790
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: it is when I do my podcast, I'm anywhere in

791
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: the world, my guests are anywhere in the world, my

792
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 2: showrunner is in Costa Rica, and my studio is in London. Yeah, okay,

793
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: So this cloud based services change work. Then obviously the

794
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: rise of gig work, where people don't realize is two

795
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: out of three people who are young today who have

796
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 2: a full time job in America have a side gig

797
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 2: or side hustle with which they are making money. So

798
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: people are planning optionality. And then there's COVID. But COVID's

799
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: impact is not on where you work. That's the least important.

800
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: It's what we think about work. So what we're now

801
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: asking a question, which is, yes, work is important, but

802
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: so is life. So how do I integrate the two.

803
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,959
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to basically lift to work, right,

804
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 2: I need to figure out how to fit work into

805
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: my life. I don't need to figure it out how

806
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: to fit life into my work. And obviously all those

807
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: are connected. You now have the ability to do basic things.

808
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why small companies are growing

809
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: so fast is because everyone has figured out that there's

810
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: a new world order that you could do pretty much

811
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: anything you want with modern technology, with modern ecosystems, with

812
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 2: modern marketplaces, with modern mindsets. And that is fundamentally what

813
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: the book says. But then what's particularly interesting. When I

814
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: was writing the book, I had twelve CEOs read the

815
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: book chapter by chapter who was writing them to get

816
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: their feedback, and at the end of it, they basically said,

817
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 2: you made us see things that we've never seen before, right,

818
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: because I don't have a screen, I said, I'm just

819
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: giving you facts like I'm not working for anybody. You

820
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: can't call me back into the office, or I can

821
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: make my own office. It doesn't matter for me. But

822
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: I'm just giving you facts as to where you're looking.

823
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,479
Speaker 1: That wasn't super description of And I'm sure everybody's super

824
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: excited to get this book and to jump right in.

825
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: And obviously with all these multi level changes, it feels

826
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: like it won't be called work anymore. Right, we talked

827
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: about the work life balance in some way at the beginning.

828
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: I don't think with doing several jobs at the same time,

829
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: especially with the younger generation, that we won't go back

830
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: into the office as we all knew this, et cetera,

831
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: et cetera. It won't be called works. It will become

832
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: part of life. And also this description or this term

833
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 1: will disappear.

834
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: I tell you one of the things that will disappear

835
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: before work disappears, the term that will disappear is a job.

836
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 2: So jobs will disappear. There will be tasked to be done,

837
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: problems to be solved, opportunities to be explored. And when

838
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: we do that, some people will might call it work,

839
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 2: others will call it medi but you know, passion, pursue it, craft,

840
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: whatever it is. But that's, you know, one of those

841
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: key things. And what I find particularly interesting, and this

842
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: is for the people who are like more sedia like

843
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: I used to be, or middle management. This book is

844
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: actually very encouraging for middle management and senior people because

845
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: in effect, one of the things that basically says is

846
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: not only can we all update ourselves, but some of

847
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: the knowledge we have, which is this crystallized intelligence, is

848
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: very hard for the b sheets to replicate some of

849
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: the knowledge we have, which is just you know, so

850
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: our experience might be all the things we've gotten, our

851
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: expertise is what's important to be able to connect dots.

852
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: The experience is knowing all where the dots are that

853
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: the machines will have, but how to connect them in

854
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: a world where you have to deal with people, we will.

855
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: Have, right, So, Richard, one of the final questions I

856
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: have for today is which is really interesting for me?

857
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: What's one belief or lesson you once held strongly but

858
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: have since rethought Because we are all part of this,

859
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: you know, changes, as we said, and were evolving every

860
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: day as well. Is there anything you strongly believed in

861
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: recent years where you thought, okay, that needs to be revalued,

862
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: that needs to be rethought. I mean, this is no

863
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: longer you know, I can share with my audience because

864
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: it feels no longer valid or relevant.

865
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 3: So there are many things.

866
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: That I rethink, and in fact, part of what I

867
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 2: think to a certain extent has kept me somewhat relevant

868
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: is I've sort of rethought things. But year is one

869
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: that I think we're going to struggle with coming up

870
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: in one which I have myself rethought. The one I've

871
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: rethought is I always used to think that in order

872
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 2: to get access to people and to have a positive career,

873
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 2: you needed to work for a company. And what I've

874
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: discovered is you don't need to. And it isn't only

875
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: people of my seasoning, which who's already built a reputation

876
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: on a network. I see a lot of people doing that.

877
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting people leave their companies, but the opportunities

878
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 2: and options out there are far bigger than I ever

879
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 2: used to think. That's number one. Here's the other thing

880
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: that I think that a lot of people are going

881
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 2: to have to think about, which is most of us

882
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: have thought for years and years that we are marketing

883
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: to people, and then sometimes we used to think maybe

884
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: we're marketing to an algorithm through which we're going to

885
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: get to people. I believe we're about to see that

886
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: we're going to be marketing to agents that represent the people.

887
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: And I don't call an agent an agent. I've had

888
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: this amazing term because what I do is I have

889
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: a lot of different people around the world teaching me.

890
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: So literally, I have five hours a week set aside

891
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: for world class people to teach me. So one hour,

892
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 2: for instance, is my publicist window where top people from

893
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: publicists come and say here's why you're stupid. Okay, not

894
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: top people, they're talented people, which is maybe different than top,

895
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: but one of them the other day basically said, hey, Richard,

896
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 2: there are two things you want to think about. Number

897
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 2: one is we may not be marketing to people, will

898
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: be marketing to agents. But don't call agents agents because

899
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: it sounds really thing. Call them chief of staff. So

900
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: each of us are going to have a chief of staff,

901
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: which will be an agent, and people will have to

902
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: talk to our chief of staff. But our chief of

903
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: staff is deeply rational versus emotional, and I basically be

904
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 2: saying the one way to sell is through sell through emotion.

905
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: So I'm now big need to say, is that true anymore? Right?

906
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 3: In a story and spreadsheet world?

907
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: Could the spreadsheet overwhelm the story because I've got a

908
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 2: chief of staff versus a human being that I'm dealing with,

909
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 2: you know, sort of one of the issues.

910
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: The other one is the following.

911
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: Most of what we've basically been thinking about in the

912
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: modern world of media has been the world of search

913
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: and the world of streams. So when you think about

914
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: how we interface with digital media, it's either through a

915
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 2: search thing including chat, GPT or perplexity or Google Search,

916
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: whatever it is, or through streams right TikTok, metter x

917
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: whatever it is on Netflix streams, So those are the streams.

918
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 2: What happens when the future is conversations, all marketings, conversations.

919
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: Why shouldn't I be able to ask questions, interrogate the

920
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: company or my chief of staff, interrot they get the company.

921
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: What happens in the world when we go from not

922
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: only obviously search will be there, streams will be there,

923
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: but now you've got conversations and what happens in the

924
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 2: world where instead of basically just talking to people. We're

925
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: talking to the a chief of staff, which happens to

926
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 2: be these alien life form machines call AI. And I'm

927
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 2: sitting out there and this is the only time that

928
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: I basically like the fact that I've become seasoned, which

929
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 2: is my whole stuff is Oh shit, that's such a

930
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: hard problem. Thank god I don't have to solve it.

931
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: But you delivered so much advice also in this what

932
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: is it nearly an hour or so we talk about today,

933
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: and I feel it could go on and on and

934
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: there would be so much more value for leaders, young people,

935
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: everybody who is in this let's call it sil work

936
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: environment of course, that we think about their careers, doesn't

937
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: matter what age. It was an absolute masterclass this conversation.

938
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 3: And thank you very.

939
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 2: Much, Ed, Well, thank you for inviting me, and for

940
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 2: the people who are listening. It'd be great if you

941
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: buy my book, you know, cos whatever, if it's in

942
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: India it's four hundred repees. In the US, it's twenty

943
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: nine dollars because they haven't still discounted it anywhere. But

944
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: let's suppose you can't afford to or you don't want to, Okay,

945
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: I think the book is great. I'm not saying this

946
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: the other stuff I'm about to tell you to replace

947
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: the book. It won't. But a lot of what I

948
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: truly believe, like you question and a lot of other

949
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: senior people who have been fortunate to do well, is

950
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 2: a lot of joy I get is from teaching people

951
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: and giving stuff away for free. So I write my

952
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: Sunday Substack, which you know, which is now read by

953
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: thirty thousand people every Sunday, and that's free. And then

954
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: I have this podcast where you were a guest and

955
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 2: I've talked to a lot of different people, which is

956
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: also free, and so you can listen to the podcast.

957
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 2: We learned from a lot of smart people, not me.

958
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: You can hear from my writing, and my writing is

959
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 2: sometimes about other people, so it's not about me either.

960
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: And then you know, maybe you'll become so successful you

961
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: can buy the book, but you don't have to buy

962
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: the book to get free stuff. That's right.

963
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: There are so many different ways to get access to

964
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: all your insights and wisdoms, but ideally you do all

965
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: of it right. Because it's a different format, it's a

966
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: different intensity.

967
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: People who read my book love it to people who

968
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: read my book there's the best of my thinking on

969
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 2: a particular topic. But there's an additional edge to it,

970
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: which is really cool. I've had world class editors, fact checkers,

971
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: aline people, so it's actually one hundred percent legal, one

972
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 2: hundred percent fact checked, edited because that's what HarperCollins does.

973
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: So you can trust everything in the book. Would you

974
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: may not able to trust something in my substack. There's

975
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: nobody fact checks it. This is one Everything is fact.

976
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: Checked, and the beauty is people have a choice, but

977
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: there is no excuse. You get access to at least

978
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: some of all your insights in different ways, and our

979
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 1: recommendation and my recommendation to our audience is tried out.

980
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: If you're not subscribing already, it is definitely worth so

981
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: we shall thank you so much. It's been an honor

982
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: and I can't wait for our next conversation and a

983
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: lot of more insights coming from you. Thank you so much,

984
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks for tuning in everyone once again. I'm

985
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: your host, Christian More. If you have a question or

986
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 1: suggestion to me, reach out send me DM on LinkedIn.

987
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: If you're curious to learn more about possible sign up

988
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: for our newsletter, or if you want to join us

989
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: at the Possible Show in Miami. Visit Possible event dot com.

990
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: Possible Now is a co production of iHeartMedia and Possible.

991
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Ryan Martz and Yasmin Melandez. Our

992
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Meredith Barnes. Special thanks to Colleen Lawrence

993
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: Mack from our programming team. Our theme music is composed

994
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: by Anthony Kellacoli. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the

995
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: iHeart app Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

996
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: favorite shows.