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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage.

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Speaker 3: That is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: Let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Counterpoints. Happy Wednesday, Spring is in the air. Ryan,

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Speaker 4: How you doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm great? How about you?

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Speaker 4: I'm good. We've got a big show. We're going to

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Speaker 4: start talking about the surprise settlement that came yesterday afternoon

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Speaker 4: in the Fox News case over deformation with Dominion. We're

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Speaker 4: then going to talk about debt sealing negotiations, which continue

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Speaker 4: to be impossible. We're going to talk about Elon Musk's

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Speaker 4: interview with Tucker Carlson. We're going to talk about a

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Speaker 4: crazy story out of Oklahoma. We have some audio you're

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Speaker 4: not gonna want to miss. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 4: Representative Jeff Jacks Dixon, who is all over TikTok, Instagram, Twitter,

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Speaker 4: Republican who has quite a social media presence. I'm going

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Speaker 4: to talk about it seems not real, it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I have to always check, like, OK, this is a

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Speaker 3: it's a deep fake.

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Speaker 5: This is not a deep fake of what you want

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Speaker 5: a congressman to talk like.

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Speaker 3: It actually is a congressman. Is that right?

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Speaker 4: Apparently I'm going to talk about some developments in a

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Speaker 4: stock band that's now on the table in the Senate,

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Speaker 4: in the House. And Ryan, you've got some interesting audio

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Speaker 4: for us as well.

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Speaker 5: Yes, Chris Snuno didn't realize the tape was running, and

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Speaker 5: so we got some candid comments from him. The new

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Speaker 5: Republican in New Hampshire governor will play that. Lauren Winsrow

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Speaker 5: with the Undercurrent.

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Speaker 3: A kind of.

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Speaker 5: Secret audio specialist, and so we'll play some of that later.

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Speaker 5: And we'll hear from Christian Parenti, who wrote a kind

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Speaker 5: of buzzy piece from a left perspective arguing that Trump

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Speaker 5: is actually an anti imperialist, infuriated a lot of people

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Speaker 5: on the left. We're going to have them kind of

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Speaker 5: respond to some of the critiques of his piece since

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Speaker 5: it has come out. But yes, the big news, the

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Speaker 5: surprise settlement, and it's impossible to think about how Fox

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Speaker 5: came to this decision without thinking it in kind of

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Speaker 5: the Logan Roy voice as he's instructing Jerry to just

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Speaker 5: sign the thing. Ye, Logan Roy himself would have done better, probably, right.

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Speaker 3: So what do they agree to?

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Speaker 5: I think seven hundred and eighty seven billion dollars plus

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Speaker 5: million almost a billion, sorry, yeah, million, seven hundred and

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Speaker 5: eighty seven million dollars plus.

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Speaker 3: Basically an admission.

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Speaker 5: That and we could put this first element up, admission

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Speaker 5: that some of the things that they said about dominion

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Speaker 5: were false, along with a couple of other acknowledgements.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they say we acknowledged the court's rulings finding certain

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Speaker 4: claims about dominion to be false. The settlement reflects Fox's

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Speaker 4: continued commitment to the highest journalistic standards. That's their statement.

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Speaker 4: When this settlement came out and reporters had flocked to Wilmington,

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Speaker 4: where the suit was being was set to be heard,

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Speaker 4: it was delayed. Then it was delayed a couple of hours.

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Speaker 4: Everyone's wondering what the huck is going on. It seemed

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Speaker 4: like the only possible answer there would be a settlement,

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Speaker 4: or the plausible answer would be a settlement, And indeed

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Speaker 4: that's what happened. Around four pm yesterday. You have all

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Speaker 4: of these reporters in Wilmington, so eager Brian Stelter actually

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Speaker 4: had gotten a special contract with Vanity Fair to cover

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Speaker 4: this trial. If that's any indication of how hot this

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Speaker 4: was in the media. One point six there was one

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Speaker 4: point six billion dollar defamation suit that ends up getting

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Speaker 4: settled for seven hundred and eighty seven billion nomiliar again million.

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Speaker 3: We keep doing this, that would be a lot of money.

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Speaker 4: I like how I courred to do the first time

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Speaker 4: of it. I did the exact same thing as Sources

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Speaker 4: also confirmed to Axios that Fox will not be required

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Speaker 4: to give any apologies or retractions as part of that

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Speaker 4: settlement deal.

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Speaker 5: So if we can put up the second element here,

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Speaker 5: this is much of their statement. They said, QUO, we

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Speaker 5: are pleased to have reached a settlement of our dispute

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Speaker 5: with Dominion Voting Systems. We acknowledge the court's rulings finding

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Speaker 5: certain claims about Dominion to be false. And you're right

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Speaker 5: that acknowledge is a key word there, like, Okay, the

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Speaker 5: court did say this. We acknowledge that this settlement reflects

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Speaker 5: Fox's continued commitment to the highest journalistic standards. We are

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Speaker 5: hopeful that our decision to resolve this dispute with Dominion

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Speaker 5: amicably instead of the acrimony of a divisive trial, allows

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Speaker 5: the country to move forward from these issues.

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Speaker 3: How sweet of them, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: You can see a three if we put that up

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Speaker 4: on the screen, if you're watching, you can see there

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Speaker 4: what that looks like. Now, there's a really interesting development

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Speaker 4: because when this settlement is announced, there's a fascinating announcement

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Speaker 4: that comes from Smartmatic. Did you see this?

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Speaker 3: A four here?

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Speaker 4: This is a big deal. So Fox is not just

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Speaker 4: being sued by Dominion. This is a statement that came

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Speaker 4: out after the settlement from Smartmatto's lawyer. There are another

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Speaker 4: voting software company, and they're voting voting booth company. Dominion's

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Speaker 4: litigation exposed some of them is conduct and damaged caused

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Speaker 4: by Fox's disinformation campaign. Smartmatic will expose the rest. Smartmatic

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Speaker 4: remains committed to clearing its name, recouping the significant damage

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Speaker 4: done to the company, and holding Fox accountable for undermining democracy.

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Speaker 4: All right, that's huge And Slate says that this case

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Speaker 4: quote they're quoting an analyst who says it quote appears

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Speaker 4: to be the more dangerous of the two major cases

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Speaker 4: against Fox. The other interesting thing is that this case

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Speaker 4: is not super far along. So as Slate notes all

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Speaker 4: of that discovery that came out in the dominion trial,

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Speaker 4: there's more discovery to come in the sparmatic trial most likely.

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Speaker 4: So that's something to pay attention to because that means

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Speaker 4: there could be more emails, more communications, more text messages.

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Speaker 4: And that's partially why Fox settles in the dominion cases too.

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Speaker 4: At least, you know, this is a good explanation for

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Speaker 4: why they would decide to settle is they don't want

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Speaker 4: their executives taking the stand in an extremely public setting.

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Speaker 5: And for all the people who are sad that this

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Speaker 5: trial is not going to go to trial, that this

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Speaker 5: loss is not going to go to trial, and are

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Speaker 5: now hopeful that the Smartmatics one will go to trial

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Speaker 5: and that Fox will probably finally get its public come

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Speaker 5: up and in the courtroom, I would caution people to

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Speaker 5: remember that these are businesses, these are companies, and so

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Speaker 5: you are investing your hope in the salvation of democracy

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Speaker 5: into a business. And the business, I would say, is

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Speaker 5: playing off of your sensitivities on this question by in

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Speaker 5: their quote when they say, you know, smart Maatic remains

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Speaker 5: committed to clearing and holding Fox accountable for undermining democracy.

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Speaker 5: Like they know exactly who they're talking to. They're riling

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Speaker 5: up the public to get them to support this clause,

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Speaker 5: this claim, which then puts more pressure on Fox to

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Speaker 5: then offer a settlement that's as big as the one

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Speaker 5: that they gave to Dominion and this in the end,

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Speaker 5: these are businesses. And so if Fox comes with hundreds

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Speaker 5: of millions of dollars, which is you know, eight hundred

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Speaker 5: million dollars, is multiples.

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Speaker 3: Of what Domanion is even worth.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And so to for an executive to get that

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Speaker 5: kind of offer, they're not going to They're just not

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Speaker 5: going to take.

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Speaker 3: That to court.

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Speaker 5: Like they cannot be your saviors, they cannot be your champions.

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Speaker 5: I do think people are misunderstanding or and underestimating how

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Speaker 5: big of a settlement this. This is one of the

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Speaker 5: biggest defamation settlements, like it is.

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Speaker 4: It is the biggest in American history. The other one

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Speaker 4: was one hundred and seventy seven million, right, so we're

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Speaker 4: talking about seven hundred and eighty seven million. There's an

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Speaker 4: incredible picture from Alex Wong Getty images of the Dominion

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Speaker 4: attorneys walking out of the courthouse in Wilmington with the

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Speaker 4: biggest smiles on their faces you have ever seen.

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Speaker 5: It's like because of the myth, what's a third of

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Speaker 5: seven hundred and eighty seven?

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Speaker 4: Right to your point, I mean, this is like huge

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Speaker 4: and to your again, to your point, there's no company

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Speaker 4: that can afford two billion dollars. Let's say they end

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Speaker 4: up settling in a similar situation with Smartmatic. There's no

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Speaker 4: company that is going to be able to like comfortably

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Speaker 4: afford two billions dollars of defamation lawsuits like that is

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Speaker 4: a chunk of Fox News business. That's we're talking billions.

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Speaker 5: But they can uncomfortably afford it. Yes, they will survive,

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Speaker 5: and I think they'll.

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Speaker 3: I think there was some hope among some out there on.

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Speaker 5: The left that this would bury Fox News, that it

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Speaker 5: would end Fox News. And but you have to remember

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Speaker 5: they had that, they had that what that hacking and

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Speaker 5: wire tapping scandal in the UK about ten years ago,

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Speaker 5: remember where a bunch of their tabloid journalists were basically

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Speaker 5: like wire tapping news Core, Yeah, News Corp. They had

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Speaker 5: to put billions aside to prepare for, you know, ultimate

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Speaker 5: verdicts and fines.

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Speaker 3: And other and other penalties.

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Speaker 5: Putting billions aside for wrongdoing is a cost of doing

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Speaker 5: business for global corporations.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Like, if anybody's seen succession, they wouldn't be they wouldn't.

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Speaker 5: Be surprised that this that this is how you how

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Speaker 5: you push yourhead. You you kind of ask for for

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Speaker 5: you push ahead, you ask for forgiveness later. And if

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Speaker 5: the forgiveness costs you a couple of billion dollars, you

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Speaker 5: pay that. But you're right that it's a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it matters to them absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I mean two billion, well one billion now roughly seven

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Speaker 4: hundred and eighty seven million, so I'm rounding up to

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Speaker 4: a billion. But then if you add in a smartmatic suit,

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Speaker 4: it's going to be really hard for them basically to

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Speaker 4: skirt this precedent. And I think that's one of the

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Speaker 4: big big things that comes out of yesterday is that

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Speaker 4: if you're settling for seven hundred and eighty seven million

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Speaker 4: in this case, you have another case that may be

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Speaker 4: as serious, if not more serious, coming ahead. Did you

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Speaker 4: just set a major precedent by settling that A could

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Speaker 4: invite more suits in the future and b makes it

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Speaker 4: really hard to finagle out of the smartmatic suit.

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Speaker 5: And what's been the response in the kind of Fox

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Speaker 5: world as far as you understand it, Like, do they

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Speaker 5: feel like, all right, we really kind of screwed up

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Speaker 5: in the way that we allowed these wildly inaccurate things

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Speaker 5: to be said about these companies in service of trying

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Speaker 5: to kind of drain viewership away from Newsmax and on

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Speaker 5: and these others. Or does Fox feel like, you know what,

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Speaker 5: we were on the ropes. This was a fight for

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Speaker 5: share of the viewership on the right. We had to

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Speaker 5: do what we did, and we did it and we

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Speaker 5: don't regret it. It's unfortunate, it's going to cost a

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Speaker 5: couple billion dollars, but that's better than kind of getting

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Speaker 5: gobbled up by these kind of neo maga outlets.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think they were always overestimating the risk of

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Speaker 4: getting gobbled up by the neo mega outlets. I will

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Speaker 4: say though, that you see it in the text messages,

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Speaker 4: you see it in the email communications with Fox corporate.

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Speaker 4: And one thing I think some people don't fully see

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Speaker 4: out in public is the tension between although it does

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Speaker 4: spill into like reports sometimes the tension between corporate Fox

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Speaker 4: and the opinion side, the news side. I think is

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Speaker 4: generally on the same page, at least it seems to

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Speaker 4: me with the corporate side, but the opinion side and

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Speaker 4: the corporate side. There should probably always be tension between

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Speaker 4: journalists and the business people at any news outlet. But

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Speaker 4: I think that tension has always existed and will probably

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Speaker 4: continue to exist. You can imagine that Manhattan executives, even

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Speaker 4: the most capitalistic ones, are not super happy to have

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Speaker 4: to answer for you know, the things that like the

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Speaker 4: subjects that Tucker Carlson covers when they go to their

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Speaker 4: cocktail parties.

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Speaker 3: Are there going to be any changes?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 3: Does this.

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Speaker 5: Present an opportunity for a reckoning? Like is there anybody

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Speaker 5: who is responsible for defamation to the tune of hundreds

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Speaker 5: of millions of dollars getting on their air?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know, because this is mostly from hosts.

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Speaker 4: I mean they're talking about Jim Piro, So I don't know.

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Speaker 4: And by the way I would have it would have

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Speaker 4: been interesting as this case progressed, and maybe the Smartmatic

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Speaker 4: one will be as well. I think it should be

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Speaker 4: more uncomfortable for the rest of the media than it

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Speaker 4: was because defamation charges do set really dangerous precedents. I'm

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Speaker 4: not nearly like on the same page as a lot

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Speaker 4: of conservatives who want to lower the threshold for what

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Speaker 4: constitute stuff. I hate defamation lawsuits because that's a great

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Speaker 4: tool to wield against journalists, and so I think this

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Speaker 4: case actually had some interesting ramifications had it gone forward,

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Speaker 4: that the media would have had to grapple with.

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Speaker 5: Right as a journalist, you don't really like to see

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Speaker 5: defamation no suits period. On the other hand, if you

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Speaker 5: have certain folks in journalism just destroying the credibility of journalism,

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Speaker 5: you do want some level of accountability without it being

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Speaker 5: then weaponized against actual journalists who are just trying to

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Speaker 5: get the truth out there. I have complicated feelings about it.

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Speaker 4: Let's move on, speaking of complications to the debt sealing

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Speaker 4: negotiations that continue to puzzle the Republican Party right now. Actually,

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Speaker 4: in fact, this is from CNN yesterday. He made a

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Speaker 4: plead a House Republicans during a closed door meeting to

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Speaker 4: back his debt ceiling plan. He's telling you, he's telling

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Speaker 4: Republicans that although it doesn't have to include everything they want,

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Speaker 4: it will help get him to the negotiating table with

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Speaker 4: President Joe Biden. Now again from CNN, House Republicans are

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Speaker 4: insisting that any increase in the debt limit must be

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Speaker 4: paired with spending cuts, and the White House is saying

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Speaker 4: that the debt limit should be raised without any conditions whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: So after that meeting you have, we can put this

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Speaker 4: next element up. Chip Roy goes on Glenn Beck's show,

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Speaker 4: and Olivia Bieber's tweeted this out. Trip Roy says McCarthy

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Speaker 4: has done a good job laying out the floor for

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Speaker 4: debt ceiling talks, but also that Republicans quote better damn

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Speaker 4: well fight for things that are not currently included in

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Speaker 4: that debt ceiling plan, like undoing the damage of the

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Speaker 4: Inflation Reduction Act and the damage of the IRS proposal.

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Speaker 4: Trip Roy said, McCarthy has quote a hard job, but

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Speaker 4: there are still some things we need to address. McCarthy

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Speaker 4: said wants to get a bill out by next week

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Speaker 4: and get it to pressure Joe Biden. That seems incredibly unlikely.

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Speaker 4: What is your sense?

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Speaker 5: And for people not in the capitol bubbles, who is

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Speaker 5: Chip Roy in the ecosystem of the House, Republicans and

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Speaker 5: the right.

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Speaker 4: For a lot of people, trip Roy probably first got

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Speaker 4: on their radar during the speakership contest. Earlier this year

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Speaker 4: when Kevin McCarthy was just fighting after vote after vote

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Speaker 4: after vote, because Tripway has become a leader in the

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Speaker 4: Freedom Caucus sort of circle, and he's endorsed Run DeSantis

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Speaker 4: for president. He was Ted Cruz's chief of staff. He's

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Speaker 4: sort of a Tea Party kind of conservative populist who

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Speaker 4: really knows the hill and really knows procedure and has

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Speaker 4: definitely become a leader in those circles. So it's significant

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Speaker 4: that he's saying this needs to address it because it

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Speaker 4: sounds like he still wants a concession from McCarthy that

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Speaker 4: if they punt. This reminds me of actually what Democrats

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Speaker 4: were going through with the Inflation Reduction Act. If they punt,

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Speaker 4: they need to promise other things. Or he's saying there's

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Speaker 4: going to be no punting at all. What is your

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Speaker 4: sense of whether the White House would give an inch

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Speaker 4: on any of that.

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Speaker 5: I don't think there will yet for sure. And a

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Speaker 5: funny side note on that IRS proposal that he mentioned,

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Speaker 5: They McCarthy told and I think you saw it. McCarthy

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Speaker 5: told him, Look, I wanted to put that in. But

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Speaker 5: the problem is that according to the CBO, and also

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Speaker 5: according to all common sense, and according to the reasons

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Speaker 5: that we actually don't like this proposal is that it

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Speaker 5: raises a lot of revenue, something like two hundred billion

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Speaker 5: dollars over the course of the next ten years because

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Speaker 5: you have more resources to the IRS, who can go

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Speaker 5: over the tax returns and say, actually, you know you

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Speaker 5: pencil whipped this one here.

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Speaker 3: That's wrong.

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Speaker 4: You had seven hundred dollars in your Venmo account.

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Speaker 3: Last year, so pay up. So it brings money in.

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Speaker 5: So if they want to repeal the IRS, then all

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Speaker 5: of a sudden they have to find another couple hundred

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Speaker 5: billion dollars somewhere else. And they've ruled out Pentagon, you know,

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Speaker 5: they've ruled out solid security Medicare, so you know they're

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Speaker 5: they're looking under every couch cushion for every penny they

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Speaker 5: can't afford to be then also playing this IRS game.

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Speaker 5: So maybe the freedom calucus will fold on that one.

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Speaker 5: But you're right, they want much bigger concessions from McCarthy,

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Speaker 5: which then moves the legislation a farther away from getting

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Speaker 5: to eighteen among all of Republicans and b farther away

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Speaker 5: from anything serious, because if it becomes something that is

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Speaker 5: so clearly just kind of a fantastical wish list of

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Speaker 5: the right, then it's not a legitimate negotiating position.

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Speaker 4: And that's what's hard for McCarthy to suss out right now,

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Speaker 4: because to make matters even worse for him, there's a

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Speaker 4: handful of members, Republican members who don't want to who

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Speaker 4: will not do any debt ceiling negotiations, are not voting

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Speaker 4: to raise the debt ceiling period, And so you have

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Speaker 4: this combination of people who are saying, we don't want

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Speaker 4: to do it, but we will do it if you

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Speaker 4: give us this, and they're mixed in in the negotiations

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Speaker 4: with people who are saying we're not doing it period.

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Speaker 4: And so to cobble together, especially when you have such

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Speaker 4: a thin margin as speakers the coalition, to get something

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Speaker 4: like that done is incredibly difficult.

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Speaker 5: So it seems like the odds are against him getting

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Speaker 5: anything through the House period, through his own conference. What

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Speaker 5: do you think do you think he because if he doesn't,

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Speaker 5: then he's really back to square one. What's your guests

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Speaker 5: as to whether he can get the Nancy Mace's the

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Speaker 5: kind of moderatesh Republicans on the one hand, and the

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Speaker 5: Chip Roys and all the others, Who are you demanding

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Speaker 5: bigger concessions all to agree on a single package.

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Speaker 4: I think this is the moment that it either all

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Speaker 4: implodes or that McCarthy is walking keeps walking a tightrope.

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Speaker 4: And he has been adept at walking that tightrope surprisingly so,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think some people political ran a story

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Speaker 4: last year like, is Kevin McCarthy dumb? What's the headline?

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Speaker 4: You might remember it, But he's been, you know, for

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Speaker 4: someone that has sort of gotten dismissed by the Washington

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Speaker 4: Press Corps is like bumbling. He's been pretty adept at

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Speaker 4: walking that tightrope within his own conference and keeping Republicans.

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Speaker 4: Even though he had to go through what twenty votes

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Speaker 4: to get the speakership, he got it, and he's generally

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Speaker 4: had the support going forward. There haven't been a lot

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Speaker 4: of a lot of this hasn't boiled over and bubbled

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Speaker 4: to the surface. And so to do that, I know,

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Speaker 4: it's only been a few months. It's actually pretty crazy

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Speaker 4: if you look at what the Republican conference is like

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Speaker 4: right now. So he could continue to walk that tightrope.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't bet against him. At the same time, it's

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Speaker 4: just so hard when you have people who are not

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Speaker 4: voting at all for a dot ceiling and people who

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Speaker 4: are saying so, I mean, I wouldn't bet against him.

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Speaker 4: He because he's been giving so much when it comes

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Speaker 4: to these hearings, when it comes to these investigations, they're

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Speaker 4: more willing to give him a little slack.

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Speaker 5: So then let's game it out from there, because anybody

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Speaker 5: who's watching this or listening on the podcast who has

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Speaker 5: a four oh one K is deeply concerned about whether

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Speaker 5: or not we're going to have a repeat of twenty eleven,

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Speaker 5: which was a debt downgrade, and I think the stock

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Speaker 5: market lost like twenty twenty five percent of its value

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Speaker 5: before they came back.

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Speaker 3: So basically what happened, what Bayner did in order.

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Speaker 5: To get his conference to agree to a debt ceiling

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Speaker 5: increase back then was crash the car.

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Speaker 3: You're in a game of chicken.

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Speaker 5: And you just have to crash the car to just

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Speaker 5: to prove to the people in the back seat you'll

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Speaker 5: do it, that will do it. And it's also it's

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Speaker 5: going to hurt, but buckle up. And so whether he

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Speaker 5: passes something through the house or not, in order to

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Speaker 5: get to a place where both Biden is scared enough

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Speaker 5: to maybe come a little bit towards House Republicans, but

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Speaker 5: more importantly that the Freedom Caucus realizes that you know,

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Speaker 5: they've taken they've they have They've fought as hard as

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Speaker 5: they can, They've taken it as far as they can go,

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Speaker 5: and that if they take it any further, they're not

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Speaker 5: going to win, and they're going to blow the car

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Speaker 5: up rather than just kind of mangle it on the

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Speaker 5: on the side of.

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Speaker 3: The road, which which means that he is.

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Speaker 5: I don't see another route for him personally to get

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Speaker 5: the debt ceiling done other than crash the car. I

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Speaker 5: can see a route where it gets done, where he

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Speaker 5: gets ousted. You can vacate the chair and put somebody

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Speaker 5: else in who then does it, and then you have

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Speaker 5: another speaker fight after that to see maybe even comes

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Speaker 5: back after that. But for him to personally get it

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Speaker 5: done as speaker, I feel like he has to take

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Speaker 5: twenty percent off the stock market or something before people

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Speaker 5: are like, all right, fine, we did everything we could.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of pain.

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Speaker 5: I'm getting yelled at by every business owner in my district.

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Speaker 3: Okay, fine, let's do the debt ceiling.

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Speaker 4: What do you think, Yeah, I totally see how that's

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's the option that Bayner went with. Except

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Speaker 4: the difference between Bayner and McCarthy is that McCarthy prides

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Speaker 4: himself on being a unifier, whereas Bayner had gotten to

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Speaker 4: the end of his rope with the kind of people

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Speaker 4: who had come in in that wave, and we're anti

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Speaker 4: Obama and the listener of Tea Party era Republicans. He

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Speaker 4: just said, screw it. It's harder for me to see

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Speaker 4: Kevin McCarthy doing the same thing. That said. Tactically, it's

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Speaker 4: not the end of the world, because if you are

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Speaker 4: an establishment Republican, you pin the blame on the crazies,

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Speaker 4: the cuckoo birds, to quote a senator at the time

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Speaker 4: that might have been twenty fourteen, but you can blame

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Speaker 4: it on the crazies. And that's why the White House

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Speaker 4: has the upper hand in all of this. They don't

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Speaker 4: need to give an inch because politically they know that

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Speaker 4: it'll all come back on Republicans. The media will help

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Speaker 4: them frame this as a totally the fault of Republicans.

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Speaker 4: The fiscal responsibility of the country in general will fall

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Speaker 4: on Republicans. Currency downgrades, everything is going to fall on

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Speaker 4: Republicans because they're going to look obstructionist. And that's a

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Speaker 4: huge like the White House just simply does not need

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Speaker 4: to that's policy question aside, at least on the political

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Speaker 4: strategic messaging front. That's why they have the upper hand.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, we're going to crash.

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Speaker 4: We might crash, although if I mean, remember Kevin McCarthy

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Speaker 4: charmed Jim Jordan of all people, and because he has

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Speaker 4: been willing to give so much, he does have some slack.

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Speaker 4: There are some things that he can give them to

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Speaker 4: make it work. And he's done it before.

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Speaker 5: So if you remember it took him what four or

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Speaker 5: five days, it took him a long time. That's a

438
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 5: long time in terms of a market crash.

439
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 4: Right, I don't see this happening by next week. There's

440
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 4: no way.

441
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 3: Right, We'll see, We'll see see.

442
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 4: Maybe I shouldn't say there's no way we can. He

443
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 4: might over the weekend they might work on something, who knows,

444
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: and for fun.

445
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 5: The other point I would haved is that when Republicans

446
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 5: are kind of forced to then put their own ideas forward,

447
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 5: one reason Democrats feel like they're in a good position.

448
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 3: Is because you start to get stuff like Buddy Carter.

449
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 5: Did you see his his suggestion, let's see recently, all right,

450
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 5: let's throw Buddy Carter here.

451
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: We will we will be able to capture that underground economy,

452
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: if you will, as distasteful as it may be. The pimps,

453
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: the prostitutes, they're going to be paying taxes because they consume.

454
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 1: They go out and groceries, they go on and they

455
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: buy stuff, and that's where you're going to be paying

456
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: the taxes on.

457
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 5: So that's Buddy Carter making his argument for basically a

458
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 5: thirty percent like flat sales tax, to just hit everybody,

459
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 5: the pimps and the prostitutes.

460
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 4: And then get all the taxes out of the way.

461
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: There you go.

462
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 5: But I think a lot of people, aside from kind

463
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 5: of how funny it is to hear Buddy Carter talking

464
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 5: about how he's going to tax the pimps and the prostitutes,

465
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 5: people go to wait thirty percent. So all working people,

466
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 5: middle class people, everybody's going to pay thirty percent sales

467
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 5: tax on all of their consumption, while which is going

468
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 5: to be extremely regressive.

469
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: And so I just.

470
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 5: Feel like when they when you get into these debates,

471
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 5: the democratic view of let's fund good things education, healthcare,

472
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 5: you know, climate, climate spending, and let's fund it and

473
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 5: let's tax billionaires and millionaires to do that. That position

474
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 5: is just more popular than oh yeah, let's put a

475
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 5: thirty percent sales tax on everything, or let's do a

476
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 5: flat tax, or let's do let's cut this so that

477
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 5: we can do you know, tax cuts for the ridge

478
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 5: down the road.

479
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 4: It's way more palatable to say we're going to you know,

480
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 4: not upset the apple cart in the near term. It's

481
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 4: very hard, and Macron is learning this right now. A

482
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 4: lot of lessons for Republicans over in France. You can,

483
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 4: obviously there are arguments that you need to do things

484
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 4: to secure a safe and healthy future along the lines

485
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 4: of what Macron is making. That said, there are ways

486
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 4: to do it, and there are ways not to do it,

487
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 4: and it's always going to be harder to do it

488
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 4: than to not. So it's it's no easy fight for

489
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: Republicans going forward. There is a trunk of the country

490
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 4: that won't be super pleased if Biden is just like,

491
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: screw it, We're just going to keep raising the debt

492
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 4: ceiling and blah blah blah, I'm not going to make

493
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: any cuts there's a trunk of the country that will

494
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 4: be irritated by that, But it's not going to compare

495
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 4: to Yeah, it's no contrast. There a clear contrast, I

496
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 4: should say.

497
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 5: And so meanwhile, Tucker Carlson continues to land some pretty

498
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 5: big interviews.

499
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: He spoke with Elon Musk yes yesterday. Let's roll a

500
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: little bit of his interview with him.

501
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 7: You were shocked to find out that various intell agencies

502
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 7: were affecting its operations.

503
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 6: The degree to which various government agencies had effectively had

504
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 6: full access to everything that was going on on Twitter

505
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 6: blew my mind.

506
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 3: I was not aware of that. Would that include people's dms?

507
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: Yes, So he also addressed that's one part of what

508
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 4: he talked about the combination of the government, the security state,

509
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 4: and Twitter. He also got into generative AI. So let's

510
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 4: play the second clip and then we'll break it.

511
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 6: All down on trivial It has the potential of civilizational

512
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 6: destruction these movies like Terminator, but it wouldn't quite happen

513
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 6: like Terminator, because the intelligence would be in the data centers,

514
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 6: the robots, just the end effector. But I think perhaps

515
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 6: what you may be alluding to here is that regulations

516
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 6: are really only put into effect after something terrible has happened.

517
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 3: That's correct.

518
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 6: If that's the case for AI, and we only put

519
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 6: a regulation after something terrible has happened, it may be

520
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 6: too late to actually put the regulations in place.

521
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: The AI may be in control at that point.

522
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 4: So Musk then said in this interview that he was

523
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 4: preparing to launch truth GPT. We can put C three up.

524
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 4: He's trying to launch a truth focused competitor to chat GPT.

525
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 4: That may seem naive, that may seem funny to people,

526
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 4: And I think there are all kinds of obvious difficulties

527
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 4: that come with trying to direct AI towards truth in

528
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 4: the age where nobody agrees on what constitute truth or

529
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 4: what the value of truth actually even is. In the beginning,

530
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 4: but he said, quote, I'm going to start something which

531
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 4: I'll call truth GPT, a maximum truth seeking AI that

532
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 4: tries to understand the nature of the universe. I think

533
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 4: this might be the best path to safety, in the

534
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 4: sense that an AI that cares about understanding the universe

535
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: is unlikely to annihilate humans because we are an interesting

536
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 4: part of the universe. Unlikely to annihilate not great odds,

537
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 4: I would say in terms of civilization. But he has

538
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 4: actually incorporated a company back last month called x dot Ai.

539
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 4: This is according to Gizmoso. Gizmodo and some reports say

540
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 4: he's been reaching out to AI folks trying to sign

541
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 4: them on to his new gig, onto that new AI venture.

542
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: He did sign that big letter last month. I actually

543
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: also signed it. Not I'm not on the high profile

544
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 4: side of that, because it was like Steve Ozniak, Ela

545
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 4: Musk and all of those other like tech giants saying

546
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: that we need a pause open source public AI, generative AI,

547
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: that is, until we can wield it responsibly, which is

548
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 4: I think an important point to make. So he was

549
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 4: instrumental in the founding of chat ChiPT of open AI

550
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 4: and has been disillusioned soured on the project. Now. Steve

551
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 4: Bannon clapped back to all of this, We but see

552
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 4: four Uh. He had some words to say. He called

553
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 4: Elon Musk a snake oil salesman and said, quote, you're

554
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 4: a fool if you trust him. A lot to unpack Ryan,

555
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: as they say.

556
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 5: Well, so we've got a couple motivations to unpack here.

557
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 5: I've been really gratified to see elon Musk's kind of

558
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 5: ghot against the against AI because this stuff does scare me.

559
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 5: And the point that you only regulate after something bad

560
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 5: happens is something that liberals, progressives and the left have

561
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 5: all been saying for years, and so we ought to

562
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 5: get ahead of it, and so I'm in complete agreement

563
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 5: with it. You also see a lot of people who

564
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 5: say that Musk is actually just cynically saying this stuff

565
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 5: because he's behind when it comes to the AI race,

566
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 5: so that's why he wants this pause and so to

567
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 5: have him come out with his own AI thing, But

568
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 5: good AI, it's like, oh God, maybe that is where

569
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 5: whatever it takes different bedfellows to build a coalition. So

570
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 5: if there are some people who are cynically opposing the

571
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 5: explosive growth of AI at this point, while others are

572
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 5: like genuinely earnestly opposing it, whatever it all, it's all

573
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 5: opposition and whatever we can do to kind of get

574
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 5: a handle on this before it gets a handle on us,

575
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 5: I think is a good thing. When it comes to

576
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 5: Bannon's motivation, Yeah he's banned from Twitter, Yeah he's salty

577
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 5: that he can't get back on.

578
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 4: Musk refuses to Unban Steep Bannon, which is something I

579
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 4: forgot about until I read that article. This is what

580
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 4: we're doing. But he also says that Musk is on

581
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: the wrong side of China, and I think that's a good,

582
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 4: pretty good point. We've covered that before. You open that

583
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 4: big factory literally in Chhinjong, and then.

584
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: Ban get arrested on like some Chinese moguls yacht.

585
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, so all of this is none of this

586
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 5: is clean like pure intellectual kind of jousting.

587
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 4: No, there's a lot going on. I do think this

588
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 4: gets to the sort of Musk taiebe versus Mehdi Hassen

589
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 4: debate in a sense, and that we went back to

590
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 4: that first clip we must says. The degree to which

591
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: various government agencies had effectively full access to everything that

592
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 4: was going on on Twitter blew my mind. Effectively full

593
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 4: access to everything that was going on on Twitter. Some

594
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 4: of those early revelations from the Twitter files that wouldn't

595
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 4: have happened without him were that constant meetings with the FBI,

596
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: constant communications with government agencies about potential censorship and actual censorship.

597
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: Whether you think the degree of the censorship was warranted,

598
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: The Hunter Biden pictures or it was limited or not

599
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: it was happening. Bottom line, we know that because of

600
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 4: the Twitter files. We know those sort of contours of

601
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 4: what was happening because of the Twitter files. And it

602
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 4: was interesting on the right that a lot of people

603
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: came to see Donald Trumps like a blunt force object

604
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 4: and a net good all of these different problems obviously,

605
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 4: all of these different competing motivations as he's trying to

606
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 4: get his brand back in shape, make money, whatever it is.

607
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: But then even people who accepted all of that said, well,

608
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 4: he's useful as a blunt force object. There's probably a

609
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 4: parallel going on with Elam and that. I think there

610
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 4: are clearly a million different problems, but I also feel

611
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: like there are a lot of things we wouldn't know

612
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: if not for Elon Musk, and this AI debate actually

613
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: is changing because of Elon Musk in a better direction.

614
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: Whether or not that's because of pure motivations.

615
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 5: And it's not just US in intelligence agencies that had

616
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 5: access to DMS. We also know that Saudi Arabia, which

617
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 5: is a significant continues to be a significant owner in Twitter,

618
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 5: was running an entire intelligence operation in which they were

619
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 5: bribing engineers in order to get them to give them

620
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 5: information on dissident dms and locations as as well. And

621
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 5: there was even a trial about this, like this is

622
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 5: not a this is a conspiracy, but is one that

623
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 5: was rolled up, but it's not one that had any

624
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 5: consequences for people above the engineers. Basically, that's why you

625
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 5: and I when we were talking about this initial sale,

626
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 5: we're saying that the one thing, the one major thing

627
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 5: he could do to show everybody that he's taking these

628
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 5: concerns seriously and is operating in good faith is to

629
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 5: encrypt direct messages in a way that makes it so

630
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 5: that Twitter itself does not have access to the messages,

631
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 5: so that you can come with bribes, you can come

632
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 5: with a warrant, it doesn't matter.

633
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: It's out of our hands.

634
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 5: We don't have we don't have it, like you got

635
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: to get it some other way, like by when somebody

636
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 5: screenshots it and posts it to Twitter like Twitter, like

637
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 5: Musk did with his signal messages with Taabile. If you

638
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 5: want to get messages, it's going to have to be

639
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 5: old fashioned way. You're not gonna be able to going

640
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 5: to be no backdoor for you.

641
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 4: I mean, get out a polaroid and take a picture

642
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 4: of the screen.

643
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: That's it. That's what you're going to do.

644
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 5: So until he does that, I'm going to take everything

645
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 5: he says on these questions with a grain of salt.

646
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 5: Hopefully hopefully he does though, Like it is, I am

647
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 5: as a journalist always nervous when people are dming me

648
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 5: through Twitter if they're trying to say stay secure, and

649
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 5: you know, of best practice is really to then immediately delete,

650
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 5: like move them over to signal YEP, and then delete

651
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,239
Speaker 5: the exchange. Sometimes they can go back and find it,

652
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 5: but you're always much better off if it's just not there,

653
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 5: because if you do get hacked, oftentimes what hackers can

654
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 5: find or if they say an engineer comes in the

655
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 5: back end, what they're going to see is what's there,

656
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 5: and it's it takes them an extra couple layers to

657
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 5: go back and find things that have been deleted. But yes,

658
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 5: it's it's something that people should be aware of that

659
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 5: you do not necessarily have privacy in your private messages.

660
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 4: Oh no, absolutely not. So you're right, there are a

661
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 4: lot of things that need to happen. I think you know,

662
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 4: obviously both of us would always take him with a

663
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: grain of salt. Because he's a powerful billionaire who's in

664
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 4: charge of like what, I don't know, twenty percent of

665
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: the world at this point. It's impossible to quantify, but

666
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 4: a lot. So always take that stuff with a grain

667
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 4: of salts.

668
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: Of course, publicly on a billionaire.

669
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 4: We should add, yes, funded by all of us. It's beautiful.

670
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: Really when you think about it, that is it is.

671
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: It takes a village. It's your yeah.

672
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: All right, Moving on to a crazy story out of Oklahoma,

673
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 4: one of the strangest things unfolding in the news cycle

674
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 4: right now. We can put the first element up on

675
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: the screen. This is from the Washington Post. Oklahoma Republican

676
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 4: Governor Kevin stet has called on a group of officials

677
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 4: to resign after what he calls, quote, horrid audio has emerged.

678
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: We actually have some of that audio. It's officials in

679
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 4: McCurtain County, Oklahoma. They this is a recording. It was

680
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 4: obtained by News nine actually from another reporter who left

681
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 4: his phone in a room. And we'll get into all

682
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 4: of this. But as the meeting was going on, the

683
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: public had been dismissed from a meeting. These officials in

684
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 4: mccurtin County, Oklahoma, kept talking. The audio made its way

685
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 4: to News nine in Oklahoma. You'll hear some interesting things

686
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 4: about hit men that come out of left field. But

687
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 4: let's go ahead and roll that is. You know, we

688
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 4: actually talked.

689
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 8: Man very quiet guys.

690
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and would cut no fucking mercy.

691
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, in Louisiana because it's all mafia right now.

692
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

693
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, but here's the reality. If the hair on his

694
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 3: lives hold for.

695
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: Fillingham, Hail or any of those people that really were

696
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: behind all that with the hair on their hairsat that's boy,

697
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: anybody who would be the bad guy.

698
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's Sheriff Kevin Clardy, Commissioners Mark Jennings and

699
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: Robert Beck and Alicia Manning with the Sheriff's department, and

700
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: they the Sheriff's apartment is claiming this audio may have

701
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 4: been altered, and obviously they're making the claim that it

702
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: was illegally obtain, which we can talk about a little bit.

703
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 4: But the Sheriff's office is saying, according to News nine,

704
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 4: the audio does not match the quote transcription, which is

705
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 4: pretty that's quite interesting. And none of these folks have

706
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 4: resigned as of right now at least, so the governor

707
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: calls on you to resign. I think they're actually expelled

708
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: from like the Sheriff's Association, and one of them was,

709
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 4: but they still have not resigned, which leads me to

710
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 4: believe they think there's some reason they can weather this.

711
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: If they're coming out and straight up saying the audio

712
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 4: has been doctored and altered, that tells me they think

713
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 4: they have something that still hasn't been made public. Maybe

714
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: they do, or maybe they don't. I don't know that

715
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 4: there's any context that makes talking about hiring a hitman

716
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 4: and where you could hide a reporter's body better. I'm

717
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 4: not sure that there's any context here that's going to

718
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 4: make that better for these public officials. It is interesting, though,

719
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 4: because we still haven't heard anything about that and it's

720
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 4: been a couple of days.

721
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 5: And even worse, in some of the audio, you they

722
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 5: get to a place where they're they're talking about it

723
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 5: sounds like they're talking about some black citizens in Oklahoma

724
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 5: that they have a problem with h and they come

725
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 5: back with, you know, back in the old days, basically

726
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 5: the thrust of what there's basically in the old days,

727
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 5: you could just lynch them. Can't do that anymore, and

728
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 5: they're kind of lamenting that it's it's unfair that now

729
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: you know their their their hands are really tied in

730
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 5: the way that they can, uh, you know, suppress opposition

731
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 5: to them from the African American community, and so doesn't

732
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 5: sound like it's faked. Uh, we are in a world

733
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 5: of deep fakes. But we have to you know that

734
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 5: we're in a world of potential deep fakes. But we

735
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 5: also have to like use our own powers of deduction,

736
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 5: like what are what are they?

737
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 3: What are the chances that the story that was told

738
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: is accurate?

739
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 5: Which is the phone left on record and these people

740
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 5: talking like this or the other one, that there's some

741
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 5: sophisticated deep fake operation aimed at these fairly random and

742
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 5: obscure officials in Oklahoma, Like who and why would be

743
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 5: responsible for that?

744
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: Yeah? Although yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean,

745
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 4: if they have evidence, they have had time to come

746
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 4: forward with the evidence. It's been this broke last week

747
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: and so it's been several days. If they have evidence

748
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 4: that says it doesn't match a transcription, that the audio

749
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: was doctored, I would think that by now we would

750
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 4: have if it's good evidence that it would have been there.

751
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 4: If they're trying to just bury the story. I hope

752
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 4: it goes away and not force these folks to resign

753
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 4: or have much blowback continue. This is a national news obviously,

754
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: we just showed you the Washington Post headline covering the

755
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 4: story from McCurtain County, Oklahoma. Then that leads me to

756
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 4: think that the path they're following now suggests the evidence

757
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 4: may exist but is not good, That it may just

758
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 4: be something they can point to to say we can't

759
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 4: verify this. You know, at the end of the day,

760
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 4: we just got to go with our gut. We got

761
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 4: to trust our guys, and we don't you think they

762
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: would say anything like this in this context, et cetera,

763
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: et cetera. So maybe they have something they can point

764
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 4: to like that. I think if they had really good, solid,

765
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 4: clear evidence, we would have seen it way sooner than.

766
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: Now, right, And if their answer as well, we didn't transcribe.

767
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 5: Anything about are like pining for the days of lynchings

768
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 5: and our talking about hit men. So if we didn't

769
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 5: transcribe it, we certainly couldn't have said it like that's

770
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 5: not the most persuasive argument. But like you said, if

771
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 5: they've got evidence, let's see it here we are like

772
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 5: you reach out to counterpoints.

773
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: DM. Ryan Graham, He'll delete it right away and move

774
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 4: to signal.

775
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 3: There we go.

776
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 4: So the other thing I would mention is that the

777
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 4: reporter left his recorder in the room because he was

778
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 4: trying to prove He says that the officials were having

779
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 4: secret meetings, and that's where the reporter gets That's where

780
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 4: the recorder gets left in there. Now, Oklahoma, I think

781
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 4: it's a one party or you have to have two

782
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 4: parties consent to recordings, so you can't just technically leave

783
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 4: a recorder. The local News nine quotes someone saying there

784
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 4: were multiple public officials sitting in this public space having

785
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: a conversation. The sheriff is not going to be able

786
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 4: to make a case for illegal wiring, taping, or improper

787
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 4: recording based on those facts. That's according to Ed Blow,

788
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 4: who's quoted in the News ninth story. I don't know.

789
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 4: I obviously am not super familiar with the laws in Oklahoma.

790
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: If you do need two people to consent to report

791
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 4: to a recording, it may be different. Though, if you're

792
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 4: in a public space in your public.

793
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 5: Officials, it looks like it looks like Oklahoma's a one

794
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 5: party consent Oh well, jeez. But the problem here is

795
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 5: that the one party who consented left the room, so

796
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 5: you no longer have any of the parties consenting. Then

797
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 5: the question becomes did these office have a legitimate expectation

798
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 5: of privacy? And if they did, then it would be

799
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 5: illegal wiretapping. But if they did not have an expectation

800
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 5: of privacy, and that you could argue, and I think

801
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 5: this is the case that they're trying to make. So no,

802
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 5: this is a public meeting or it should be a

803
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 5: public meeting, because you have denied that you hold private meetings.

804
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 5: So therefore either you lied about having a private meeting,

805
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 5: or this is a public meeting. If it's a public meeting,

806
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 5: you have no expectation of privacy. And recording is just

807
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 5: fine because I can walk into a city council.

808
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: Meeting and hit record. There's nothing illegal about that. So

809
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 3: either way it's out. This is secondary.

810
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 5: Like Linda Tripp, she did get charged, but we still

811
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 5: got the whole scandal.

812
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yes, yes we sure did. Let's talk about

813
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 4: Jeff Jackson. He is a representative out of North Carolina,

814
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 4: a Republican and he has been since he took office.

815
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 3: He's fascinating guy super.

816
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: Interesting, he's got a sub stack, he's got a TikTok

817
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 4: at Twitter. And before we get into all of that,

818
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: let's roll his most recent video, which is going really

819
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 4: viral right now.

820
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 9: I'm still brand new to Congress. I've only been there

821
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 9: one hundred days, and I don't know if I'm not

822
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 9: supposed to say this out loud, but it's true and important,

823
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 9: and if you don't know this, you need to. It's

824
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 9: really clear from working there for just a few months

825
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 9: that most of the really angry voices in Congress are

826
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 9: totally faking it. These people who have built their brands

827
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 9: around being perpetually outraged.

828
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: It's an act.

829
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 9: I've seen a bunch of examples.

830
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: Here's one.

831
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 9: I've been in committee meetings that are open to the

832
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 9: press and committee meetings that are closed. The same people

833
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 9: who act like maniacs during the open meetings are suddenly

834
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 9: call them and rational during the closed ones. Why because

835
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 9: there are any cameras in the closed meetings, so their

836
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 9: incentives are different. What I've seen is that members of

837
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 9: Congress are surrounded by negative incentives. There are rewards for

838
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 9: bad behavior, you know what. The big one is being

839
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 9: able to reach you. The big thing that modern media

840
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 9: and modern politicians have learned is that if they can

841
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 9: keep you angry, they'll hold your attention. And they both

842
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 9: want your attention. So if you're a politician and you

843
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 9: show media outlets that you can help them keep their

844
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 9: audience angry, they'll give you their audience.

845
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 4: So that I checked on Twitter as of last night,

846
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 4: I had one point for million views. I don't have

847
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 4: a TikTok, so I couldn't see how many views it

848
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 4: got on TikTok. But he has one point seven million

849
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 4: TikTok followers and one hundred and fifty thousand Twitter followers,

850
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 4: so millions of people have seen that video by now.

851
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a real hunger for people to just speak

852
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 5: plainly to them, and there's a massive amount of distrust

853
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 5: and the angry voices that he's talking about, and he

854
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 5: doesn't specify who they are, but we can take some

855
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 5: educated guesses those angry voices are exploiting that same lack

856
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 5: of trust. So he's now saying no, Actually, the people

857
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 5: that are trying to tell you that they're the ones

858
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 5: that can be trusted, because they sense that you don't

859
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 5: trust Washington, they're lying to you too. Right, And I

860
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 5: loved his last point where he says, the next time

861
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 5: you hear something crazy from somebody and you think, how

862
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 5: is it possible that they could actually believe this, ask yourself,

863
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 5: do they actually believe this?

864
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 3: Or are they just telling you that?

865
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 5: And it's both the attention economy, but the actual and

866
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 5: also the actual fundraising economy because every time that in

867
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 5: order to raise small dollars, you have to stand out

868
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 5: from the pack. In order to stand out, it's a

869
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 5: ratchet effect. You have to, you know, continue to shock

870
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 5: greater than you shocked before, because we have this capacity

871
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 5: to quote unquote normalize behavior that we've seen recently. So yeah,

872
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 5: the only way is to just be even more abnormal.

873
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. So he says, the same people who act like

874
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 4: maniacts during the open meetings are suddenly calm and rational

875
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 4: during the closed ones. And you might wonder why nothing

876
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 4: gets done in Washington if people are actually able to

877
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 4: function behind closed doors. But it's because what happens outside

878
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 4: of those closed doors still Trump's what happens behind those

879
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 4: closed doors. Because he makes a really good point. He

880
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 4: is the word incentives. That's exactly right, because the incentive

881
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 4: system that's set up now is not for reconciliation literally

882
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 4: or meteorically. It's not for reconciling left and right and

883
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: getting work done. It's not for really serving the public.

884
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 4: And we'll talk about that actually in the next segment.

885
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 4: The incentives are for media attention and fundraising, and he's

886
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 4: not wrong about that at all. One of the things

887
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 4: that I think is really interesting that he does is

888
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 4: some of his early videos, especially really peeled back the

889
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: curtain on how Congress actually functions. There's a great documentary

890
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 4: on HBO. It's called The Swamp and it started as

891
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 4: a Facebook series that followed members of the Freedom Caucus

892
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 4: like Thomas Massey, and it gets into lobbying. It gets

893
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 4: into like who is in it. There's some people on

894
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 4: the left in it too, but it gets into it

895
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 4: like exactly how you get that committee seat you want?

896
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 4: Exactly how close the RNC is to Capitol Hill clubs,

897
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 4: so where the lobbyists are and where the members are,

898
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 4: and how close both of those things are to the Capital.

899
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 4: I think he should do more of that. If he

900
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 4: gets into like being sanctimonious about other people being angry,

901
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 4: I'm going to find that annoying, right because people have

902
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 4: good reason to be angry, even if their representatives are cynical.

903
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 5: Right, if I were going to play Devil's advocate or

904
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 5: like Marjorie Taylor Green's advocate, but I would say that

905
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 5: whether it's cynical or not, she is tapping into something real.

906
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 3: Yes, so even if she and.

907
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 4: So is Alexandria Ocsio Kurtez.

908
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: Right, So whether or not that, whether or not that

909
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 5: comes from a genuine belief in lasers or whatever, space,

910
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 5: space or whatever, whatever that thing is that she always

911
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 5: gets made fun of for, isn't the point. The point

912
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 5: is that it's a democracy and she's channeling something real,

913
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 5: and a representative democracy you got to have everybody represented

914
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 5: in all all different passions represented from from AOC all

915
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 5: the way to MTG. So in that sense, I would

916
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 5: say that, yeah, okay, it probably is some of it

917
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 5: probably is fake, but the function of it is what

918
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 5: those people want. They want the system to be shaken up, and.

919
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 4: Then yes, it becomes a self perpetuating cycle so that

920
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 4: people who do want that you end up never getting

921
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: anything done because in order to keep fundraising and keep

922
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 4: the media attention on you, you have to not give

923
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 4: people what they want, but tell them. What they want

924
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: is always more. You always want more, and it's never

925
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 4: good enough because you're trying to keep the media attention

926
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 4: on yourself. And so I do think it's like a

927
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 4: vicious cycle. I think that it gets to the incentives

928
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 4: point that Jeff Jackson is making, which is a very

929
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: good one. That said. Steve Kornaki did a super interesting

930
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 4: look back at Newt Gingrich's rise to power on a

931
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 4: podcast earlier this year. Is really good. And one of

932
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 4: the interesting things about Gingrich's rise is how he used

933
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 4: the early days of C Span. He saw a c

934
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 4: spank cameras and he realized that if you went out

935
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 4: there when nobody else was on the floor and made

936
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 4: these grand speeches that serve no purpose because nobody's listening

937
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 4: to them in Washington, d C. Now with a Sea

938
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 4: Span camera, you can get media attention, you can generate,

939
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: you know, all kinds of interest and intrigue by talking

940
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 4: in these Sea Span cameras. And a lot of people

941
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 4: would point back to that and say that was a cynicism.

942
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 4: That was that was a really cynical moment in politics

943
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,959
Speaker 4: that took us down a different course. You know, people

944
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 4: who were here before knew Gingrich will say that, you know,

945
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 4: he really came in and splintered everything. Nobody was able

946
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 4: to get along after any of that. To that, I

947
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 4: would say, and Karnaky gets into this, Democrats had the

948
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 4: House for what forty years before Gingrich and company came

949
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 4: in and shook it up, And I get it. I

950
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 4: know that it's frustrating when we can't get anything done.

951
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 4: I think that is a completely legitimate point. But that

952
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 4: total like sense of compromise and cooperation and why Washington

953
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 4: d C is not good either unless it's rooted in

954
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 4: something else, unless we change the incentive system. It's not

955
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 4: good when you see everybody in Washington d C glad

956
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 4: handing and backslapping.

957
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 5: Right, everybody laments that the era of the Dinner Party

958
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 5: is over, where all the two parties get together and

959
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 5: they're so friendly, without realizing that what that was also

960
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 5: doing was basically draining democracy out of elections. That it

961
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 5: didn't matter who you sent to Washington and they're going

962
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 5: to basically kind of work together to do the same thing.

963
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sorry that newk Angert came along and made

964
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 4: it harder for Ted Kennedy and who else was it

965
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 4: to have the waitress sandwich was Chris Dodd. I think, yeah,

966
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry he upset that. Sorry he drew attention

967
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 4: to all of that. Again. You can think his motives

968
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 4: are cynical, but there's something obviously real being tapped into

969
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 4: the question that Jeff Jackson raises, which is a good one,

970
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 4: is that our incentive system sets it up so that

971
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 4: it's never reconciled. It's never fixed because you keep having

972
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 4: to pit people against.

973
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 5: Each other, right, and the advent of social media adds

974
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 5: an element of it that we do need to be

975
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 5: cautious about.

976
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 4: Agree completely, not just it's just the same thing that

977
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 4: cable news did yep. Speaking of bad incentives in Washington,

978
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 4: DC and how you can never bring left and right

979
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 4: together to actually solve a problem, I want to talk

980
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 4: about some news that just hasn't gotten enough coverage this week.

981
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 4: There's a new bill that was unveiled by Senate Democrats.

982
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 4: It's called the Ethics Act on Stock Bands on stock

983
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 4: Trading Bands in Congress. This is from F one here. Yeah,

984
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 4: here's from the Washington Examiner, which got the scoop ahead

985
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 4: of the announcement. Senate Democrats are set to unveil sweeping

986
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 4: proposal to band members of Congress from trading in the

987
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 4: stock market. The bill dubbed the Ending Trading and Holdings

988
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 4: in Congressional Stocks Act. There's a nice little acronym. Would

989
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 4: immediately prohibit lawmakers from buying or selling stocks. It would

990
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: also require them and their spouses and dependence to divest

991
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 4: from certain assets or place holdings into a qualified blind trust,

992
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 4: a proposal that wouldn't apply to lawmakers who were only

993
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 4: recently elected this Congress until their next election. That's pretty key.

994
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 4: The other key part of this, and the Examiner continues

995
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 4: to note it lawmakers are going to be subject to

996
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 4: civil penalties if they don't comply. That could be equal

997
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 4: to one month's pay or quote an amount equal to

998
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 4: ten percent of the value of each covered investment that

999
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 4: was not divested or placed into a qualified blind trust.

1000
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 4: Interestingly enough, Merkley Jeff Murkley tried to get Josh Holly

1001
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 4: support for the Ethics Act. Hally actually introduced his own

1002
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 4: legislation called the Pelosi Act, but this is different. So

1003
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 4: as Merkley's trying to get Holly in to cooperate with

1004
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 4: his bill because they'll probably need good Republican support on

1005
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 4: this Holly says it should absolutely make it so that

1006
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 4: This is him saying that sitting senators and their spouses

1007
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 4: should have to divest their holdings before reelection, and he's

1008
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 4: saying that the Ethics Act allows them to not do that,

1009
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 4: which so that's every six years. If someone was just

1010
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 4: elected back in twenty twenty two, they can basically amass

1011
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 4: their fortune and play with that money for the rest

1012
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 4: of their lives. I think that's a good point from

1013
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 4: Holly's perspective. If that's the only sticking point that he has,

1014
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 4: it's not worth not supporting this bill over. But Politico

1015
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 4: did a roundup of some folks reaction to it. Ron Wyden,

1016
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: as you can imagine, pretty skeptical that Republicans are good

1017
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 4: on board. He said, quote, we'll have to see Mike

1018
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 4: Crapo of Idaho. He's a Republican and he's the committee's

1019
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 4: ranking member. Here he says, quote, we've already got a

1020
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 4: role that any trades have to be recorded or sales

1021
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 4: have to be recorded, and I think that's an appropriate approach.

1022
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders had a great quote to Politically. He said,

1023
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 4: to be honest with you, it's not an issue that's

1024
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 4: really on my mind right now is a sponsor of

1025
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 4: this bill. He's a pro sponsor of the Ethics Act.

1026
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 4: So it's just like a classic funny burning quote. Holly

1027
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 4: told Political this looks like Obamacare, where they write along,

1028
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 4: every member of Congress is exempt from it. Remember the

1029
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 4: Stock Act was passed in twenty twelve that required members,

1030
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 4: and it actually was in response to some serious allegations

1031
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 4: against the pelosis. The Stock Act required reporting within forty

1032
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 4: five days of trades, so basically more transparency about what

1033
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 4: was being traded. And I think it's a good example

1034
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 4: of what Holly was talking about and that nobody complies

1035
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 4: with it, and when they do comply with it, it's like, Okay,

1036
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 4: you can have the great work that unusual Wills does,

1037
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 4: but you know, they'll just keep getting rich and unless

1038
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 4: it's going to be a key issue in their district

1039
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 4: when people are voting on whether or not they can

1040
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 4: have healthcare, whether or not they can feed their families,

1041
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 4: and inflation and all of that, we'll just keep getting

1042
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 4: rich and screwing you over. So I think it's a

1043
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 4: good point. And anytime you see legislation like this, it

1044
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 4: has good support among Democrats. It's on the House version

1045
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: of it is sponsored by Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, so obviously

1046
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 4: some Democrats are rallying around it. I think there's always

1047
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 4: a reason to be skeptical. I think the point that

1048
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 4: Holly makes is one of those reasons to be skeptical. Again,

1049
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 4: I don't think it's a sticking point that's worth holding

1050
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 4: up the bill over Whether that does ever even gets

1051
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 4: to the floor, that would be up to Chuck Schumer,

1052
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 4: and then you would obviously need McCarthy and be an

1053
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 4: interesting question on the House side too, and it would

1054
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 4: need to be signed by Joe Biden, who, to son

1055
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 4: exent I guess has already made his money. And that's

1056
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 4: another interesting area of inquiry right now, of course by Republicans.

1057
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 4: So if we're trying to talk about how people are

1058
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 4: exploiting their positions of power and exploiting public service to

1059
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 4: get extremely wealthy in ways that are not available to

1060
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 4: members of the average public, average members of the public,

1061
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 4: as Republicans are in the Biden case, you know, that's

1062
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 4: and as they have been when it comes to Pelosi

1063
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 4: for years, a lot of the reporting on Pelosi was

1064
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 4: done by Peter Schwitz or who's a great reporter, then

1065
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 4: this is something that they should frankly get behind if

1066
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 4: they can solve this loophole problem. But anytime you see

1067
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 4: legislation like this coming, assume there's a loophole because it

1068
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 4: is too good to be true. If you see a

1069
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 4: big group of members of Congress rallying behind something that

1070
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 4: will actually significantly cut into their own interests and their

1071
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 4: own ability to make money, there's always a way around it.

1072
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 4: Somewhere in the bill. Maybe that's not the case. But

1073
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 4: if anything is getting passed, like the Stock Act actually

1074
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 4: did get passed in twenty twelve, you have to expect

1075
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 4: it to be completely watered down. And I know that's

1076
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 4: incredibly cynical, but that's where we are in Congress right now,

1077
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 4: and you know, for a lot of different reasons, but

1078
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 4: people are able to come in and make a bunch

1079
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 4: of money and it's not technically insider trading. And Sager

1080
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 4: and Crystal have covered this a lot, and Ryan and

1081
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 4: I have covered it too. We all sort of know

1082
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 4: how it works. It doesn't have to technically be insider

1083
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 4: trading to just hear the whist of lobbyists and of

1084
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 4: people on your committees and kind of know what the

1085
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 4: right move is, so blind trust that's also there's loopholes

1086
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 4: in blind trusts. And maybe Ryan, that's a great place

1087
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 4: to toss it to you on This is an interesting bill.

1088
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 4: It does have a lot of support among Democrats, like

1089
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 4: I think almost twenty co sponsors. It's got a lot

1090
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 4: of Ryan, you have some crazy audio. We've already played

1091
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 4: some crazy audio, but you have more crazy audio to

1092
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 4: share with us. What have you got?

1093
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 5: So Lauren Windsor, reporter over at the Undercurrent, obtains some

1094
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 5: audio of a basically it's a Chris Snu fundraiser. So

1095
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 5: Sununu is very popular New Hampshire Republican governor who wins

1096
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 5: reelection they have they have elections every.

1097
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 3: Two years up in New Hampshire.

1098
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 5: He wins them consistently, despite the fact that all of

1099
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 5: the members of the House from New Hampshire are Democrats.

1100
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 5: The Senators are now Democrats and so and Conway gets

1101
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 5: the mic at this donor retreat.

1102
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 3: You'll hear him start to panic.

1103
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 5: He's kind of fake panic, but maybe a little bit real, Like, Okay,

1104
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 5: here comes a tough question. The question she puts to

1105
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 5: him is good for you that you keep winning, but

1106
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 5: it kind of sucks that you're winning, while Maggie hassen

1107
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 5: it was just re elected comfortably that it's they're all

1108
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 5: Democrats and that they just picked up a bunch of

1109
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 5: Democrats picked up a state a bunch of state legislative seat.

1110
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 5: In other words, she's kind of asking, what are you

1111
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 5: doing wrong that is allowing this to happen? And I

1112
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 5: think his answer is instructive. He turns it back around

1113
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 5: on hers. Let's let's play a little bit of this first.

1114
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 8: Oh killing and Conway has a microphone.

1115
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 10: Thank you guys, this has been great.

1116
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 4: I give you this tough question.

1117
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 7: I am actually because of our friends and I'm thrilled

1118
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 7: that your governor.

1119
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 8: Macmpshire and you're a leading our party and they do

1120
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 8: ask you why.

1121
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 4: In the state so.

1122
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 8: And he has this that'll have to suffer her for

1123
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 8: six years, saying why you need do that have a

1124
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 8: charity control?

1125
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 3: Why did you never has win twenty one selegistes.

1126
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 5: So basically she's saying, you know, why, why are you

1127
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 5: winning but the rest are losing? He gives He gives

1128
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 5: a very long and instructive answer that you can you

1129
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 5: can find if if you check out her Twitter account

1130
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 5: or elsewhere.

1131
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 3: But here's the essence of it. Let's roll this from Sununu.

1132
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 7: At the end of the day, I haven't had the

1133
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 7: right candidates.

1134
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 8: And unfortunately the national issues.

1135
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 10: Of really where we drive up on those races that

1136
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 10: are always tied to more of a national.

1137
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 5: Issue it's been It doesn't play.

1138
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 10: Well in a in a reddish purple state like Jamanashire.

1139
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 8: It just doesn't.

1140
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 10: So when you have a weak candidates, they say, well,

1141
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 10: I'm just gonna defer whatever they're saying out in Washington,

1142
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 10: and I look, I had General Don Boulder is us set.

1143
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 8: Of kids, I'm sorry, pritid the city.

1144
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 10: He must he can agree in and serve this country

1145
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 10: agree in the both is that trying to rap up

1146
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 10: mental illness in the military before anybody else was doing it.

1147
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 5: And part of the backstory there, of course, Emily, as

1148
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 5: you recall, is that Democrats did what they could to

1149
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 5: make sure that the freaking insane balduke was the Republican nominee.

1150
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 3: But that doesn't totally absolve Republicans.

1151
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 5: For making him and you know, for him ending up

1152
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 5: with the nomination. And so I'm curious for your take

1153
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 5: on his general point, which is that this Basically, this

1154
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 5: maga stuff that's coming out of Washington plays well to

1155
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 5: the base, but in swing states like New Hampshire, it's toxic.

1156
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 5: And to me, that that that that is kind of

1157
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 5: the best articulation I've heard from a kind of moderate

1158
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 5: Republican of the dilemma that the party faces that in

1159
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 5: order to in order to be a national figure, you

1160
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:48,959
Speaker 5: have to.

1161
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 3: Believe it x y and z, and you have to

1162
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 3: behave in X y and z ways. But that is

1163
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,479
Speaker 3: going to undermine you in places like New Hampshire, which

1164
00:59:58,480 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 3: you need to win.

1165
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: Uh.

1166
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 5: You know, you need to win to control the Senate

1167
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 5: and to and to win uh, and to win presidential

1168
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 5: elections as well.

1169
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 4: If Christian Una we're sitting right here, I would look

1170
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 4: him in the eye and say stop giving them reasons

1171
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 4: to want bull duke.

1172
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 5: All right, we are joined now by author, journalist, and

1173
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 5: professor Christian Parenti to talk about his what Vox called

1174
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 5: a buzzy new piece.

1175
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 6: Uh.

1176
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 5: The headline it's in Compact magazine. It's the headline is

1177
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 5: Trump's can put this up here? Trump's real crime is

1178
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 5: opposing empire.

1179
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 3: Uh. It has produced a couple of responses. The one

1180
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: I mentioned in Fox.

1181
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 5: Another one in foreign policy by the kind of former

1182
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 5: Bernie Sanders foreign policy guy, Matt Matt duss uh So, Christian,

1183
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 5: uh Let's let's talk through some of the points that

1184
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 5: that you made here. Uh So, what is the how

1185
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 5: would how would you? How would you lay out your

1186
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 5: general thrust of the piece here?

1187
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 8: Well, I argue that Donald Trump is hated because of

1188
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 8: his foreign.

1189
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 7: Policy, that if you look at what he did in office,

1190
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 7: there was a lot that benefit of the one percent.

1191
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 8: So this is a critique from the left.

1192
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 7: And you know, if you look at Trump from the

1193
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 7: left say, well, he passed massive tax cuts and the

1194
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 7: rich like that, and he pushed deregulation very aggressively. Eighty

1195
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 7: five percent of it was blocked through the courts.

1196
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 8: But you know, he pushed a a right wing agenda

1197
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 8: on political and the economic front domestically. So why do

1198
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 8: they hate him? Why does the establishment hate this guy

1199
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 8: so much?

1200
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 7: If you look at his foreign policy, it starts to

1201
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 7: make sense because in the realm of foreign policy, his

1202
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 7: actions were anti imperialists. He didn't have some sort of

1203
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 7: left wing anti imperialist sensibility, but what he did was

1204
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 7: very threatening to America's informal empire as established after World

1205
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 7: War Two. He consistently talked about wanting to leave, and

1206
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 7: that is to say, destroy NATO. He ordered the withdrawal

1207
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 7: of about a third of the troops in Germany, and

1208
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 7: Germany is a central hub for a whole region wide

1209
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 7: network of US influence. Afrikaan is run out of Germany.

1210
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 7: There's one hundred and fifty nukes in Germany.

1211
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 8: There's forty different bases that have American personnel in Germany,

1212
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 8: and they project power into one hundred and four different countries.

1213
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 8: So he's attacking NATO, which was the centerpiece of American Empire.

1214
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 7: He refused to start any new wars. Yes, he had

1215
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 7: some drone strikes and some missile strikes, but he refused

1216
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 7: to escalate in Libya, he refused to escalate and try

1217
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 7: and overthrow Bashar Alasade. In Syria, and he actually drew

1218
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 7: down troops and moved them over to where the oil is.

1219
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 8: Famously, but there's not that much oil in Syria, and

1220
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 8: Syria doesn't export oil. It's like produced like three hundred

1221
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 8: barrels a day, two hundred thousand barrels a day for

1222
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 8: domestic consumption. He withdrew troops from Iraq and from Afghanistan.

1223
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 8: He negotiated the end to the Afghan War. Even if

1224
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 8: the dirty work of actually ending that war fell to Biden.

1225
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 8: That process of withdrawal was.

1226
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 7: Prevented all the way along, sabotaged by.

1227
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 8: The Pentagon itself, and thus it was delayed. He discussed

1228
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 8: withdrawing troops from South Korea. He floated the idea withdrawing

1229
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 8: about a quarter of the twenty eight thousand troops that

1230
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 8: were there, even not a quarter if you talked about

1231
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 8: growing four thousand, twenty eight thousand troops that were stationed

1232
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 8: in South Korea. He demanded that Korea pay cost plus

1233
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 8: fifty percent, and then that became his thing. He wanted

1234
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 8: every country that was housing US troops to pay cost

1235
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 8: plus fifty percent. So he saw American empire as a

1236
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 8: poorly run security business in which the US was being

1237
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 8: ripped off.

1238
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,040
Speaker 7: He didn't see any of the benefits that come to

1239
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 7: American capitalism, particularly maybe not American capitalism that implies all

1240
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 7: the workers and consumers as well, but to the American

1241
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 7: ruling class, the American one percent reaps many of the

1242
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 7: benefits of American empire. He didn't see that and took

1243
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 7: a hammer to the whole thing. He canceled the transpecific partnership.

1244
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 7: He you know, wanted to unilaterally scrap NAFTA, but he

1245
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 7: had one of his top economic advisors stole the document

1246
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 7: off his desk by which he was going to do that.

1247
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 7: He then successfully renegotiated NAFTA. I mean, if you just

1248
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 7: add it all up, the guy was a vandal.

1249
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 8: You know, he acted as a vandal towards the informal

1250
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 8: structure of American empire.

1251
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 4: It's interesting because if we cut to like the criticism

1252
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 4: from Zach Bauchamp over at vox, he tweets in just

1253
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 4: two countries of Rock and Syria, Trump's drone war killed

1254
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 4: three times as many civilians as the Gulf War, Coosovo Intervention,

1255
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 4: and Libya wars combined. And I think your argument is

1256
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 4: more interesting than that. Your is that if you weigh

1257
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 4: Trump's vandalism against Trump's hawkishness, it comes out on the

1258
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 4: side of the vandalism. That sort of vandalistic instincts were

1259
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 4: a net and the aggregate, they were more powerful than.

1260
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 8: They were threats.

1261
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, if you could just pledge out how you

1262
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 4: weigh both of those and come out on the side

1263
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 4: of the point that you raised in the article, which

1264
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 4: I agree with because that seems like what you're doing

1265
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 4: because you acknowledge that in the article you say there

1266
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 4: were there was dronings. You don't dispute that, but that

1267
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 4: it weighs on one side more strongly for the benefit

1268
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 4: of a better foreign policy.

1269
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean.

1270
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 7: His actions add up to destabilization of this very elaborate

1271
01:05:54,680 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 7: architecture of based deployments, military assets, treaty relationships with individual

1272
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 7: countries through diplomacy.

1273
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 8: Formal and informal.

1274
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 7: I mean, the entire you know, the business relationships that

1275
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 7: the US government and US corporations.

1276
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 8: Have around the world.

1277
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 7: This entire structure has to be reproduced carefully, and he.

1278
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 8: Was doing the opposite. He wasn't consciously systematically dismantling it.

1279
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 8: He wasn't a piece neck who was like, when we're

1280
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 8: not going to kill anyone, the blood stop, the bloodshed stops.

1281
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 7: Now. No, he was a crassley transactional add vandal. You know,

1282
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 7: he wanted to close all the embassies in Africa partly

1283
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 7: you know.

1284
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 8: He put in the context of his other comments because he.

1285
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 7: Seems quite racist, right, I mean, he referred to Africa

1286
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 7: and Haiti countries in Africa, and Haiti in you know,

1287
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 7: really derogatory ways, but close all.

1288
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 8: The embassies in Africa. The embassies are a major source

1289
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 8: of you know, institutional footprint for the CIA. You know,

1290
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 8: he just didn't he didn't get it.

1291
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 7: And so I tried to imagine what it would be

1292
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 7: like to be a foreign policy elite, or really any

1293
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 7: kind of elite in DC with this guy in power.

1294
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 7: It would be very frightening, it would be you know, infuriating,

1295
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 7: and you would want to get rid of him.

1296
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 8: So that's the argument.

1297
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 7: It's not that Trump's foreign policy was ultra pacific and

1298
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 7: that he was guided by.

1299
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 8: High and noble ideas and.

1300
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 7: That he had a plan for a new, totally coherent,

1301
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 7: different kind of foreign policy. I think he was He

1302
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 7: was reacting kind of episodically based on this craft transactional sensibility.

1303
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 7: We're getting ripped off enough of that, we want to

1304
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 7: get paid properly. But it added up to the most

1305
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 7: powerful player in the US government vandalizing US empire, and

1306
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 7: that I think alienated a whole class of quite powerful politicians, diplomats,

1307
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 7: and military and intelligence connected bureau And that that helps

1308
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 7: explain why there is this campaign against him and his

1309
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 7: his followers, and it is not because he was in

1310
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 7: other ways attacking the class interests of the American elite,

1311
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 7: specifically in this realm.

1312
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know a lot of the progressive kind of

1313
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 5: critics of this essay that listed a lot of his

1314
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 5: kind of militarist aggression overseas, but I don't to me,

1315
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 5: and I want to list some of those for you.

1316
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 5: It gets you to respond, But to me, that doesn't

1317
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 5: necessarily undermine the point you're making. It might somewhat complicated,

1318
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 5: but it makes you think kind of a little bit

1319
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,759
Speaker 5: more deeply about well, what is what is the empire?

1320
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 5: And what part of it is is dispensable and what

1321
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 5: part of it is kind of essential to its operation

1322
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 5: and its power expression.

1323
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 3: But like to run, let's run through some of the.

1324
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 5: Things that that people would flag as you know, trum

1325
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 5: Trump kind of even one up and say Obama or Biden.

1326
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 5: You know, twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, you know, he

1327
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 5: orders strikes on Syria, like you mentioned, deploying some of

1328
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 5: the troops to the oil fields, but like you said,

1329
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 5: these are actually tiny oil fields, which Trump probably didn't

1330
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 5: even realize.

1331
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 3: He just thought they're over in the Middle East. They

1332
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 3: must have a lot of oil.

1333
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 5: He ripped up the Iran deal, which you know, the

1334
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 5: kind of national security establishment had been really hostile in

1335
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 5: a lot of ways to the Iran deal. He then

1336
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 5: kills Costam Solomoni and in what was that January of

1337
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 5: twenty twenty while he's also ordering the Pentagon to come

1338
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 5: up with wargames about as we now know from Ken

1339
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 5: Klippenstein's reason reporting toward you know, to wargame a war

1340
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 5: with Iran. There's reporting that he got very close to

1341
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 5: ordering air strikes on Iran right after the election. If

1342
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 5: not for January sixth, there may have been you know,

1343
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 5: he may have launched another you know, set of air

1344
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 5: strikes against Man.

1345
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 8: But he didn't, you know, but because he didn't, Yeah, right, what.

1346
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 5: Else again, the coup He backed a coup but here

1347
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 5: and let's tart like he tried to back till it.

1348
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 8: Started going bad, and then he didn't. Then he started

1349
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 8: talking about Moduro's good looking generals.

1350
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 7: He referred to Juan Guido as the the Beto over

1351
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 7: work it as well as police, and you know, like.

1352
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 8: He he had conflict with John Bolton.

1353
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 7: He explained to Tucker Carlson, not in an interview, but uh,

1354
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 7: you know, according to sources that he said, I use bolton.

1355
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 7: Bolton makes me look crazy, you know, and and Trump

1356
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 7: has said that more recently. Right, it's like you know,

1357
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 7: the mad dog there, you got, you gotta they gotta

1358
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 7: think you're crazy enough to go there.

1359
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 4: Right.

1360
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 8: I think you guys have discussed this on the show.

1361
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:49,799
Speaker 8: I was talking about, like, you know, in his interview

1362
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 8: with Tucker Carlson, I would use the you know, making

1363
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 8: make these threats about the end word going going atomic. Right,

1364
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 8: So yeah, he played up that sort of stuff, which

1365
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 8: is probably similar lodgs in his mind, like that's what

1366
01:10:59,439 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 8: Nixon did.

1367
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 4: You know.

1368
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, I just don't think that those things add up.

1369
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 8: I don't think those those things negate.

1370
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 7: Everything I lay on this article was like the guy

1371
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,559
Speaker 7: said stuff like again and again he was serious about

1372
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 7: maybe we should scrap NATO.

1373
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 8: You know, that's like maybe we should take the engine

1374
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 8: out of the car and see how it runs. It's

1375
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 8: like that is that would be a massive blow to

1376
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 8: American empire. But I kind of interrupted you.

1377
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, but what's fascinating that if you get

1378
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,640
Speaker 5: the end of the Vox article, you actually end up

1379
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 5: seeing the writer agree with you. He writes toward the

1380
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 5: end of the piece, this recklessness, and by this recklessness,

1381
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 5: he's referring to Trumps asking for war plans, for invading

1382
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 5: Mexico and like, you know, all these other things that

1383
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 5: he's that he's doing. He writes, this recklessness is actually

1384
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 5: part of why the foreign policy establishment is so implacably

1385
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 5: hostile to the former president. He has challenged the plans

1386
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 5: of the post World War two international order, like NATO

1387
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 5: and free trade, which they believe ensure global stability, and

1388
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 5: his alternative is a foreign policy based on America's unrestrained,

1389
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 5: violent id Except for that last passage, and actually maybe

1390
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 5: even including that last passage, that passage could have come

1391
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:19,719
Speaker 5: out of your piece.

1392
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 4: It feels like it's almost like they just don't want

1393
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 4: to give Trump what you gave him, even if it's accurate.

1394
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's almost like an attitude.

1395
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 7: Right, which is I think a serious mistake for people

1396
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 7: on the left, because another thing about Trump's foreign policy is.

1397
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:39,520
Speaker 8: That he's very intuitive. He's a very intuitive.

1398
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 7: Politician, right, He's like the idiot savant of American politics.

1399
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 7: It's like the jazz musician who can't read music but

1400
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 7: knows exactly what notes to play, right, And a lot

1401
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 7: of people in this country are anti war, even as

1402
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 7: they're like patriotic and kind of much muchishta in their

1403
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 7: kind of pro military sensibility, they're also anti war, you know,

1404
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 7: they like love the military, but don't really want their

1405
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 7: cousin to go off to some country and possibly get

1406
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 7: killed and have all this money go over there. And

1407
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 7: people don't have to have a particularly sophisticated understanding of

1408
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 7: American foreign policy to not like a lot.

1409
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 8: Of it, right, just be like, well, I don't really know.

1410
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 7: Where Ukraine is, I don't understand this, but I see

1411
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 7: that there's a lot of regular people being killed.

1412
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 8: And I mean, I just I don't like this. I

1413
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 8: don't I don't understand it. I don't like it.

1414
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 7: And I know it's expensive and there are needs right

1415
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 7: here at home which are being underfunded. Right at that level,

1416
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 7: a lot of a lot of people have a pro

1417
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 7: peace position. They don't like the empire, even as they

1418
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 7: love the military right and love the flag. And Trump

1419
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 7: taps into that and he plays to that, and that

1420
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:47,719
Speaker 7: I think it was very important in his initial election.

1421
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 7: I wrote an article for non site years ago right

1422
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 7: after the election about Trump's rallies. I watched a whole

1423
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 7: bunch of them on c SPAN and it was the

1424
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 7: whole anti war, end of forever wars, bring the troops home,

1425
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 7: have a peaceful foreign policy. That was a very big

1426
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 7: part of his message, much bigger than xenophobic, racist, anti

1427
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 7: immigrant talking points were part of his message, which I mean,

1428
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 7: they were clearly part of his message.

1429
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 4: But we're talking about it constantly on the campaign.

1430
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 7: So those those who were so hostile to the idea

1431
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:25,839
Speaker 7: that Trump gains traction with voters because of his foreign policy,

1432
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 7: I think you're making a mistake because I think that

1433
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 7: Democrats should be more peaceful, and that that that politicians

1434
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 7: on the left, progressives, the squad, that they made a

1435
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 7: big mistake by supporting war crans, war credits for Ukraine

1436
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:42,559
Speaker 7: and all that they should be much more from Bernie

1437
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 7: on down to the rest, and they should be much

1438
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 7: more hostile to American Empire, not only because it's the

1439
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 7: right thing to do, but I actually think it would

1440
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 7: have traction with voters.

1441
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 8: I don't.

1442
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:56,440
Speaker 7: I don't think most Americans are into the American Empire.

1443
01:14:57,840 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's well said, and a good lesson

1444
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 4: because is that the less I think resistance to what

1445
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 4: you outlined shows that they haven't absorbed some of the

1446
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 4: political lessons, let alone the moral ones, but the political

1447
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 4: lessons of Trump's rise.

1448
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, and just just so people, I want to read

1449
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 5: this one more time from Vox. Trump has challenged the

1450
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,680
Speaker 5: pillars of the post World War two international order like

1451
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:24,640
Speaker 5: NATO and free trade, which which they believe ensure global stability.

1452
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 5: Like that is, Yeah, that is agreeing with your peace

1453
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 5: in an essay that says that they're disagreeing with it,

1454
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 5: which I think is so instructive about the kind of

1455
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 5: confusion of this time that we're that we're living in

1456
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:40,960
Speaker 5: and some some of it deliberate confusion and some of

1457
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 5: it earnest I agree. Yeah, So Christian, thanks, you know,

1458
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 5: go ahead.

1459
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 8: I mean there's also you know, there are the one percent.

1460
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:52,640
Speaker 8: Let's not let's forget this.

1461
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 7: I mean, they they gained, they benefit tremendously from the

1462
01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 7: role of American empire. Part of why there's all this

1463
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,719
Speaker 7: flight capital props up real estate markets, props up asset

1464
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 7: values is rooted in the fact that the US rejects

1465
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 7: power globally, and that's part of what draws money in

1466
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 7: that benefits the one percent and the speculator class, but

1467
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 7: not the regular people.

1468
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 8: And so there's that element in this resentment towards Trump

1469
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 8: as well.

1470
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you mentioned cheap raw materials and cheap labor

1471
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 5: as well, and when you get when you get to those,

1472
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 5: then you see the one percent and the middle class

1473
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 5: kind of indirect conflict when it comes to the value

1474
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 5: of American empire, because yes, the middle class is going

1475
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 5: to get you know, cheaper stuff that boosts the kind

1476
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 5: of consumer economy, but they're also getting entire industries hollowed

1477
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:46,719
Speaker 5: out and no longer support families with wages.

1478
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,280
Speaker 7: The industrialization is part of the blowback that comes from

1479
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 7: this global project of domination by.

1480
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 8: Subjugating the world making it safe for foreign investment, well,

1481
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 8: that means you know, us direct investment. That means those

1482
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 8: of the conditions, the preconditions for the departure of American industries.

1483
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 4: So and that's why it's married with like elite politics

1484
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 4: and the fashionable politics of the elite, because you see

1485
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 4: that in their aversion to this argument, even though they

1486
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:16,959
Speaker 4: will walk through it logically and be like, well, basically

1487
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 4: it's right, but it's icky.

1488
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 5: Right and also, yeah, he's not non violent. Yeah, and

1489
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 5: I think we can all agree with that he's not. No,

1490
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 5: I think that's true. Yes, well, Christian, thanks so much

1491
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 5: for joining us this fascinating, fascinating piece. And you know,

1492
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 5: I think we're all kind of groping in the dark

1493
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 5: on in this in this new politics.

1494
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:41,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, and folks can check it out in Compact.

1495
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 8: All right, thank you very much for having me on,

1496
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 8: and good luck with the show.

1497
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:47,960
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, appreciate it.

1498
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 4: Before we started recording, we were even trying to like

1499
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 4: define the politics of Compact. We'll publish like gizak and

1500
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 4: it'll publish. You know, Sarah Bamari obviously is a big

1501
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 4: part of Compact. So it's a fascinat publication. I definitely

1502
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 4: recommend people check it out. And that essay is a

1503
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 4: great example of why.

1504
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I saw somebody on Twitter saying, oh, well,

1505
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 5: this is BS. People don't know that PARENTI actually supported

1506
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 5: the Iraq war. I was like, you know, I've known

1507
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 5: Christian for more than twenty years, and I was like,

1508
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 5: I actually marched with him in two thousand and two

1509
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:26,720
Speaker 5: against the Iraq Wars, so I can personally testify that

1510
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 5: he was not supporting of that war. Christian actually is

1511
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 5: in many ways is the reason I got into journalism.

1512
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 5: I got fired from this job as a pot lobbyist,

1513
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 5: and he was like, come down to Bolivia and cover

1514
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 5: this uprising with me back in two thousand and five,

1515
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 5: and so I went down and there was an uprising.

1516
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 5: Morales ends up taking power as a result of it.

1517
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 5: I think the next year he and I went.

1518
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 3: To Iraq covering the war over there at the time,

1519
01:18:57,400 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 3: and so you know.

1520
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 5: We've covered the blowback and the impact of American Empire ourselves,

1521
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 5: so it would not be the case to say that

1522
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 5: he's like supportive of the Iraq war or American Empire

1523
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 5: or something like that. Interesting piece, and I like the

1524
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 5: idea that what the left could draw from this is

1525
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 5: not that Trump is good or not that Trump is nonviolent,

1526
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:26,240
Speaker 5: and not that Trump even has some coherent kind of

1527
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 5: foreign policy that the left ought to adopt, but that

1528
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 5: there are grains of public sentiment that can be gleaned

1529
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,320
Speaker 5: from this, and that the left does have permission to

1530
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 5: be much more anti war and much more anti imperialist

1531
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 5: than it has been and would be rewarded by voters

1532
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 5: for doing the right thing as a result, and what

1533
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 5: they could do is contra Trump actually put out a

1534
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:52,720
Speaker 5: coherent American foreign policy that benefits the working class in

1535
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 5: the middle class, rather than.

1536
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 3: Then you have a choice between a chaotic one where.

1537
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,679
Speaker 5: You like, is this guy going to get us new yeah,

1538
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 5: in the process of doing this kind of vandalism, or

1539
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 5: can we do we have a progressive vision of a

1540
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,760
Speaker 5: of a of a rollback of American empire that isn't

1541
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 5: going to get us nuked?

1542
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 4: And so much of it is. Yes, the capitalistic part

1543
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 4: of it is important, but it's also just so wrapped

1544
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:19,639
Speaker 4: up in elite signaling. If you look at MSNBC during

1545
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 4: the Iraq War versus MSNBC now, it is all warmongering

1546
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 4: like you are. It would be very rare to hear

1547
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 4: an argument like the one that Christian just made on

1548
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:31,920
Speaker 4: MSNBC today as opposed to MSNBC in two thousand and seven,

1549
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 4: two thousand and six. And part of it is, i think,

1550
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 4: because it's it's become very in vogue to just completely

1551
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 4: pretend that the the Iraq War didn't happen, right, that

1552
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 4: like we didn't learn any of those lessons, and to

1553
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 4: cozy up literally to Bill Crystal in some like.

1554
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 5: Very obvious nicole person for the Iraq War.

1555
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:58,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a they're not reading the room. I

1556
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 4: know it's right there. It's on a silver platter, that's

1557
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:03,840
Speaker 4: right there. Well, that does it for us this week

1558
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 4: on Counterpoints. We hope everybody has a great rest of

1559
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:09,960
Speaker 4: their week. We will see you back here next Wednesday.

1560
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 3: See you then,