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Speaker 1: I was searching for a way to self mandicre. I

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Speaker 1: needed to feel better. I was suffocating, and the same

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Speaker 1: way that you would fight for breath if somebody was

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Speaker 1: choking you, I was fighting for I was fighting for

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Speaker 1: something that would allow me to breathe for a minute.

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Speaker 1: My gosh, that's profound. And the only thing that worked

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Speaker 1: is when I heard other people. Okay, I'm not proud

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Speaker 1: of that. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm

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Speaker 1: Bill Courtney, I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm

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Speaker 1: a father, I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football

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Speaker 1: coach in inner city Memphis. And the last part, somehow

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Speaker 1: it led to an oscar for the film about our team.

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Speaker 1: That movie is called Undefeated.

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Speaker 2: Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved

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Speaker 2: by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using

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Speaker 2: big words that nobody else uses on CNN and Fox,

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Speaker 2: but rather by an army of normal folks, US just

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Speaker 2: you and me deciding, hey, maybe I can help you.

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Speaker 1: That's what Darren Babcock has done.

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Speaker 2: Darren hit rock bottom, as you just heard, which makes

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Speaker 2: his redemption story even more beautiful. He went on to

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Speaker 2: accidentally found Bontin Farms, one of the largest urban farms

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Speaker 2: in the country. Yet it's not really about cultivating vegetables,

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Speaker 2: it's about cultivating people. I cannot wait for you to

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Speaker 2: meet Darren right after these brief messages from our general sponsors.

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Speaker 1: Darren Bibcock, what's up. It's great to be here. Such

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Speaker 1: an honor to meet you. They sent me over the

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Speaker 1: documentary that they did. We have so many parallels that

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Speaker 1: my heart bled with your art. It was just an

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Speaker 1: amazing story. And so it's an honor to be here.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and thank you for spending some time

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Speaker 2: away from Dallas to join us here in Memphis. And

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Speaker 2: you've been here two days, so you got to spend

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Speaker 2: a little time looking around Memphis yesterday. I hope you've

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Speaker 2: you've enjoyed our fair city.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great hospitality, some amazing people doing just profound, beautiful work.

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Speaker 1: And like we said kind of when we met, just

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Speaker 1: the grit and tenacity of the people that are like

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Speaker 1: growing uphill really steep hills and do an amazing work.

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Speaker 1: It's been beautiful to see.

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Speaker 2: I really really appreciate that tell us about you know,

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Speaker 2: I found it really interesting just the brief explanation of

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Speaker 2: kind of a city boy living a duality life on

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Speaker 2: the farm and the irony of that, that upbringing and

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Speaker 2: where you are now, which we will certainly get to

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Speaker 2: where you are now, but go forward on how you

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Speaker 2: grew up.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a Texas Panhandle guy. I love this part

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Speaker 1: of my story. But I'm not sure exactly how my

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Speaker 1: family got here. But they landed in Tennessee, and my

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Speaker 1: great grandfather fell In was a sharecropper and fell in

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Speaker 1: love with the daughter of the family who owned the

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Speaker 1: land that they farmed, which were forbidden at the time,

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Speaker 1: and they were only fourteen, and so they stole a

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Speaker 1: horse and a lope to the Texas Panhandle. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: So really your roots are in Tennessee. Well, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know where. It's just that's how you know family,

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Speaker 1: and knowing where I came from is important to me.

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Speaker 1: And those generations didn't talk, and so I want my

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Speaker 1: children to know where they came from and what battles

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Speaker 1: were fought for them to have the life they have today.

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Speaker 1: And so my grandmother and grandfather told us some of

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Speaker 1: these stories, and that's that's what they wrote down and

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Speaker 1: told us.

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Speaker 2: He was a sharecropper. He was a sharecropper.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, stole a horse, migrated to Texas and got a

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Speaker 1: job leveling, pulling a mule and a plow, leveling fields

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Speaker 1: for ol field storage tanks. And there were no housing there,

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Speaker 1: so they lived in a dugout, a hole in the ground,

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Speaker 1: your kid. And when my great grandmother got pregnant with

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Speaker 1: my grandmother, they I guess the job was winding down

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Speaker 1: and went the chuck wagons that would come to feed them.

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Speaker 1: It was too cumbersome to travel with the cookshack on

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Speaker 1: the back of the wagon, so they would leave it

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Speaker 1: behind and wherever they were going next they just build

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Speaker 1: a new cookshack. So my family got to move out

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Speaker 1: of the dugout into the cookshack and that's where my

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Speaker 1: grandmother was born. We come from really humble, blue collar.

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Speaker 2: Because phenomenal And where's that you said in the Panhandle?

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Speaker 1: Like where, Well, it was around mule Shoe where this.

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Speaker 2: Mule Shoe, the booming metropolis of Muleshe never developed much

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Speaker 2: past those old days.

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Speaker 1: He wound up establishing his own farm in between Pampa

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Speaker 1: and Groom, which are north the east of Amillo. And

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Speaker 1: then my dad was the first one in our family

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Speaker 1: to go to college and was a banker in Amrello,

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Speaker 1: and that's I was raised in a small city in

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Speaker 1: the Panhandle of Texas, but with those values from that,

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Speaker 1: from the way our family formed and grew up in

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Speaker 1: a Christian home, I didn't get it. I think as

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Speaker 1: a as a as I'm matured, I was looking for things,

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Speaker 1: not to get it because I wanted to do what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I didn't want to surrender submit

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Speaker 1: to anything. So I participated, but it was never something

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Speaker 1: that I bought into. And I was raised in some

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Speaker 1: ways contradictorily about work ethic and that you could do

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Speaker 1: anything you put your mind to, and the value of

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Speaker 1: character in a man, and so that was everything to me.

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Speaker 1: And since I didn't subscribe to the faith component of it,

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Speaker 1: it was all about me what I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: and what price was I willing to pay to get

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Speaker 1: what I wanted. And fast forward, I get a scholarship

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Speaker 1: to go to University of Oklahoma to wrestle, and we

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Speaker 1: go there. The first day nineteen eighty four, we had

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Speaker 1: three Olympians come back to gold medalist.

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Speaker 2: I was about to say, dude, I don't know wrestling

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Speaker 2: is not huge in this area. The high school savath

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Speaker 2: and all. But anybody that knows anything, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: like Oklahoma, and I think Iowa. But if you wrestle

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Speaker 2: at Oklahoma and you get a scholarship wrestler at Oklahoma,

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Speaker 2: they're really good. Yeah, you were a tough dude, because

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Speaker 2: we had a very good team. My first two years there.

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Speaker 1: We were ranked top in the country and we wound

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Speaker 1: up being victims to Dan Gable's legacy of nine national

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Speaker 1: championship champion ships in row. We were his.

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Speaker 2: He was Iowa.

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Speaker 1: Oh he was Iowa. Oh yeah, So you're right, it's

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Speaker 1: at that time. The landscapes changed today, but at that

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Speaker 1: time it was Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Iowa State, and Iowa.

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Speaker 1: Those were the powerhouses every year. There's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of equity across the landscape now, so there's that's that's changed.

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Speaker 1: But at that time, those were the four top teams,

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Speaker 1: and you wrestled with Olympians on your team. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I just I got there. You know, coming out of

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Speaker 1: high school, you're a star. Everybody that shows up there

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Speaker 1: was the guy.

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Speaker 2: I had to be. The city. You can go to Oklahoma, but.

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Speaker 1: Then you go to that environment and you're not. And

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Speaker 1: I just all the confidence that I came in there

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Speaker 1: with just I just left me. I don't belong here.

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Speaker 1: And the coach sits us down. We had the largest

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Speaker 1: recruiting class that we've ever had, top ranked team in

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Speaker 1: the country. And he says, look around the wall where

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Speaker 1: all the champions, the pictures of all the world champions,

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Speaker 1: Olympic champions, National champions, and he said, you know, out

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Speaker 1: of this whole room, there may be three of you

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Speaker 1: that get your picture on that wall. And the numbers

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Speaker 1: are working against you because there's gonna be ten of

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Speaker 1: you that have already seen your beast days. There's going

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Speaker 1: to be ten or twelve of you that don't do

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Speaker 1: the work in the classroom to wind up being able

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Speaker 1: to earn the right to have your picture on the wall.

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be some of you that want the college

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Speaker 1: experience and to chase girls whatever. But those that are

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Speaker 1: willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish what you

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Speaker 1: want to do. Everything here is for you. You have all

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Speaker 1: that that you have, the conditions to become a champion

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Speaker 1: at the University of Oklahoma exists. What are you going

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Speaker 1: to do with it? And they handed out these shirts

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Speaker 1: that said Oklahoma Wrestling. On the back it said, if

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Speaker 1: it is to be, it's up to me. That's what

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Speaker 1: I've been told my whole life.

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Speaker 2: That's phenomenal. Did whole Cogan rustle there, I'm just.

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Speaker 1: A different type for us.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, if it is to be, it's up to me,

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Speaker 2: which fed into that hard work ethic and that family

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Speaker 2: dynamic of character and everything else, which is fantaslastic.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with.

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Speaker 2: That in balance, But if it's to be, it's up

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Speaker 2: to me, makes you your own God.

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Speaker 1: Which will be, which is a house of cards and

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Speaker 1: will come crashing down at some point, which it did

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: So you're at Oklahoma. You're a wrestler on scholarship, which

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Speaker 2: means you got life. I mean you're you're rolling right,

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Speaker 2: and well you have.

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Speaker 1: The life that if you accept that scholarship, you're theirs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that much of a life. We did what they said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I read that you went on a run

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Speaker 2: one day. Tell us about the run, the one that

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Speaker 2: ended at the Kappa House. Oh and what that led to?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, so that time a University of Oklahoma, the

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Speaker 1: athletic facilities were separate from the college and they were

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Speaker 1: really discouraged the comingling. It was pretty rough. We had

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Speaker 1: some shootings and stuff at the in the athletic side

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Speaker 1: of things. So really yeah, if you read the book,

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Speaker 1: I think it was in Barry Switzer's book. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember what it was called Bootleggers. Anyway, Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a pretty rough time. We had security on around the

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Speaker 1: athletic stuff that the rest of the school didn't have.

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Speaker 1: And when we did well, the coaches would take us

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Speaker 1: on a run through the campus and we got to

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Speaker 1: see what college life was. Wow, I put the with

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Speaker 1: the what was really going on? And this particular night

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Speaker 1: we ran all through and then when we finished the run,

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Speaker 1: he left us in the campus like where all the

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Speaker 1: college kids are all.

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Speaker 2: That's almost light here, wild dogs go eat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And the funny part of it is is

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Speaker 1: that before that day, my mom had run into a

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Speaker 1: family friend in a grocery store. The Knights, they're good,

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Speaker 1: they have mutual good friends. That was an offensive lineman

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Speaker 1: at the University of Oklahoma. That's how the different They

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Speaker 1: knew each other and they're like, well, like families do.

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Speaker 1: When they hadn't seen each other, Well, how are your

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Speaker 1: kids where are they. It's like, Oh, Darren's great, he's

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Speaker 1: at the University of Oklahoma. He got to go wrestle there.

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Speaker 1: He's like, how are your kids. It's like, oh, Marcy

199
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Speaker 1: just she went she's a freshman at the University Oklahoma too.

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Speaker 1: We should get them together. So as mothers do, they

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Speaker 1: each give phone numbers out to and I'm like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and threw it away. I'm sure she did

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Speaker 1: the same. And then after this run that day, we're

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Speaker 1: sitting in the middle of campus and as we're walking

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Speaker 1: by all the all the sorority houses and all the

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Speaker 1: different stuff, you could see these windows that were windows

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Speaker 1: for a basement, and the basement was filled with these girls.

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Speaker 1: That's a good place to stop. It's like, hey, we

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Speaker 1: need to go see what's going on. So it was

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Speaker 1: a study hall for the Kapa Kappa Gamma Pledges, and

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Speaker 1: and my mom had mentioned that Marcia was a Kappa

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Speaker 1: Kapa Gamma pledge, and so I'm like we walked in,

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Speaker 1: I was like, which one of you is Marcy Knight

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Speaker 1: And they all started giggling and then eventually said, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's skipping. And so that's kind of how that started.

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Speaker 1: They all told their friends that some guy had come

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Speaker 1: through asking about her. And the next day we were

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Speaker 1: in our dorms after practice and there were these girls

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Speaker 1: in the hallway which were forbidden, so somehow they'd snuck

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Speaker 1: in the dorms and we met that night and went

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Speaker 1: out on our first date, and eventually, when we graduated,

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Speaker 1: she became my wife.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of like an all American, kind of wonderful,

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Speaker 2: cute little story. So what happened when you and Marcia

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Speaker 2: got married? It's time to start life? Yeah, we just

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Speaker 2: started life.

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Speaker 1: You know. I'm an entrepreneur by spirit, so how God

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Speaker 1: wired me started my first company at fourteen or fifteen,

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Speaker 1: And when I got out of college, got a job

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Speaker 1: with Scott Paper, and my plan was to use them

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Speaker 1: to learn more about business so that I could be

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Speaker 1: a more successful entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: And is that Scott Papers in the toilet paper?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Scott Paper. It's it's rough and Charlie Park Now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but Scott Paper was like, back when I was

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Speaker 2: in school, was the worst toilet paper on earth. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was like it's rough and tough and doesn't cape

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Speaker 2: crap off anyone.

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Speaker 1: You can say that now that they're out of business.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, good, I don't I don't think they ever

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Speaker 2: were going to sponsor the show, so whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So you got to work for Scott Paper,

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Speaker 1: went to work for Scott Paper Company. We got married,

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Speaker 1: bought a house in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and cool town. I

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Speaker 1: had an offer to get promoted to New York City,

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Speaker 1: and we were young and thought that would be fun.

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Speaker 1: It was a really it was. It was It's Scott

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Speaker 1: Paper Company. It was this. I worked on the commercial side,

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Speaker 1: so we would We didn't do toilet paper as much

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Speaker 1: as things that businesses used to operate, and bought our

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Speaker 1: first house. Got this opportunity to move to New York City,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of an opportunity to take about tim

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Speaker 1: leaps off the corporate ladder. If you survived that, that

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Speaker 1: was a testing ground to see if you had what

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Speaker 1: it take to move on up. So I was excited

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Speaker 1: about that and went on a trip there, came back,

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Speaker 1: and when I got home, she's like, I've got some

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Speaker 1: news for you. I'm pregnant. It's like, oh, that changes things.

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Speaker 1: So we thought about it and just said, gosh, if

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Speaker 1: I am going to be successful in this world, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to always be required to live in the biggest

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Speaker 1: markets in the world, and is that the life we

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Speaker 1: want for our family. We decided no, so resigned from

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Speaker 1: that and started started over. But we had our first

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Speaker 1: child there in Tulsa, and then moved back to Borger

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Speaker 1: where her family was from, and had opportunity to help

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Speaker 1: her father run beer distributorship that he had, and that's

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Speaker 1: where our second child was born. What was it like

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Speaker 1: running a beer distributorship and really conservative Panhandle of Texas

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Speaker 1: in those days. Well, it was another part of the

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Speaker 1: beer that everybody drinks back when, back then, you know

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Speaker 1: it was. He had one of the first distributorships that

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Speaker 1: was opened up back when they you know, back when

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Speaker 1: Coors was kind of the most majestic beer brand in

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Speaker 1: the world. They only sold in Colorado, and so when

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Speaker 1: he opened his distributorship, he was one of the only

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Speaker 1: places outside of Colorado where you could buy Coors. You

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Speaker 1: could not get it east of the Missipi River. It's

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Speaker 1: spoken the Bandit spoke in the bandits about that very thing,

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Speaker 1: which is odd. But yeah, yeah, so it was. It

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Speaker 1: was fun. But I will tell you this is another

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Speaker 1: This was another kind of setback in me continuing to

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Speaker 1: search out what I believe about life and who I

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Speaker 1: am and what my place is in it and who

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Speaker 1: created it all and what does that mean. But when

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Speaker 1: he moved to Border and they bought that beer distributorship

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Speaker 1: like families do in the Bible Belt, they went to

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Speaker 1: the church and and we're going to become members, and

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Speaker 1: they turned them away because of the business he was in,

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Speaker 1: and that really wounded them. And that kind of just

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Speaker 1: affirmed other kind of things that had happened like that

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Speaker 1: through my life, that this is not something I want

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: So I went further away. And yeah, so that goes on,

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Speaker 2: and then at some point you guys moved up to Oregon, right.

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Speaker 1: So I want to I want to start a business.

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Speaker 1: I want to live it. The first year after after

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Speaker 1: my freshman year, to keep some of us that were

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Speaker 1: inclined to get in trouble from getting fat and and

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Speaker 1: them having to bail us out of the county jail,

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Speaker 1: our coach would send us on to go with him

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Speaker 1: to do wrestling camps. And we start in Sandiego and

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Speaker 1: go all the way up the west coast, and the

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Speaker 1: first time I saw the Pacific Northwest, I was like,

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Speaker 1: why did my family stop in mules Shoot Texas like

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Speaker 1: Tennessee is beautiful, and then you get to the pandental,

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Speaker 1: it's not like, why didn't you think let's keep going

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Speaker 1: till we find something that looks like what we came from.

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Speaker 1: And I know why because they had a stolen horse

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Speaker 1: and that was publishable by death in those days, and

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Speaker 1: they were looking for a place with nobody. I think

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Speaker 1: it's probably because it was flat. Okay, if you're migrating

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Speaker 1: across the country and you find a flat spot, that's

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Speaker 1: probably a good thing. That's pretty good place. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: we moved to Oregon and started a small business there

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Speaker 1: and which was we bought the rights for Schlatsky's Delhi.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with them, Double Meat original. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's the best sandwich ever made.

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Speaker 1: And our plan was to leverage that into commercial real

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Speaker 1: estate business. We wanted to buy the land and buildings

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Speaker 1: that we occupied. If we could have those restaurants be

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Speaker 1: successful for ten years, we would own those properties outright

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Speaker 1: and then we could migrate into commercial real estate. Two

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Speaker 1: years after we got there, we finally had a chance

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Speaker 1: to take a vacation, Like you know, we were grinding

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, trying to get and you have

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Speaker 1: two kids, right, We have two little kids, three and

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Speaker 1: four years old. And we had met some friends there

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Speaker 1: that took us on a surfing trip down to Baja California.

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Speaker 1: And right before we went, my wife had gotten some

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Speaker 1: like a tumor on her tongue. It's like an ulcer,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't go away, and they I've gotten those there.

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Speaker 1: They bother you. But you know, when if it doesn't

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Speaker 1: ever go away, you're like, what's going on. So she'd

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Speaker 1: gone to the doctor and it's like, we think it's

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Speaker 1: a food allergy. And you know, I didn't eat for

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Speaker 1: five years in college and she was skinny and athletic,

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Speaker 1: and we love to eat. So we didn't take that

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Speaker 1: very seriously being our age and it and it just

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Speaker 1: seemed to when she would do the diet, it would

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Speaker 1: kind of ease back, and when she wouldn't, it would

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Speaker 1: So she thought that's what it was, and then it

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Speaker 1: bothered her so much that she started adhering to the

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Speaker 1: diet and then it didn't have any effect on it.

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Speaker 1: So right before we go on this trip, she goes

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Speaker 1: to the doctor and they do a biopsy. Back then

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Speaker 1: we had just gotten answer machines, like, we didn't have

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Speaker 1: voicemail or anything yet. So we get back home and

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Speaker 1: your answer machine lights bleeping and we listened to them,

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Speaker 1: and one of them from the doctors, saying, we got

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Speaker 1: your biopsy back. You need to come in. So we

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Speaker 1: go in. H yeah, you hate and it's thirty years old.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know. I mean we I don't think. I

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Speaker 1: didn't think anything can kill me.

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Speaker 2: Nobody gets sick of thirty You're both healthy, life is good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we went in and they tell us it's cancer,

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Speaker 1: and again I don't think it registered with us. We'll

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Speaker 1: like the like what that really means? Again, I think

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Speaker 1: it was our age. We've had a lot of people

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Speaker 1: suffer from cancer and pass away from cancer our family,

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Speaker 1: so I know how danger it is, just not dangerous.

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Speaker 1: And so we start this journey of all the horrible

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Speaker 1: things they do to you to try to help you

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Speaker 1: overcome cancer. Really three things. They either poison you to

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Speaker 1: the verge of death hoping that it dies before you do,

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Speaker 1: burn it out, or cut it out. And they did

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Speaker 1: all three of those things, and two years from the

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Speaker 1: date after she was diagnosed, she passed away.

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Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our general sponsors, But

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Speaker 2: first I want to play you this really awesome voicemail

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Speaker 2: that we got from one of our premium members, Donald Fry.

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Speaker 3: My name is Don Fry. I passed her two small

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Speaker 3: member churches south of Atlanta. I first heard about Army

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Speaker 3: and Normal Folks when the Bill was interviewed by Kira

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Speaker 3: Davis on her podcast in Juna twenty. When Bill started

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Speaker 3: saying that the podcasts would feature stories about normal people

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Speaker 3: who identified a need and then we're doing extraordinary things

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Speaker 3: in our communities and beyond to meet them, it had

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Speaker 3: my immediate attention. I think John Ponder may have been

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Speaker 3: the first episode that I listened to, but I was

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Speaker 3: immediately hooked. I love the long interview format. I feel

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Speaker 3: like we're all just sitting around a kitchen table talking together.

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Speaker 3: You know. As a pastor, I'm always on the lookout

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Speaker 3: for stories of redemption and people reaching the forgotten in

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Speaker 3: our society. I've used a number of stories as illustrations

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Speaker 3: and sermons and lessons, such as Rodney Smith and his

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Speaker 3: lawnmowing and as well as Luke Michelson in his beds

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Speaker 3: for kids. But probably the biggest thing I did was

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Speaker 3: I gave a sermon called Don't be a Turkey Christian

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Speaker 3: following the themes from Bill short Thanksgiving episode. This past year,

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Speaker 3: I became a Premium member because to me, I don't

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Speaker 3: consider it as supporting army and normal folks as a podcast,

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Speaker 3: and instead I see it as contributing to the start

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Speaker 3: of a movement that we so desperately need if we're

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Speaker 3: ever going to fix the problems that we face as

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Speaker 3: a nation. And I want to be part of that army.

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Speaker 1: So I got to be honest with you.

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Speaker 2: When I hear Donald's comments that we just shared with you,

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Speaker 2: I get a little chill up my spine, frankly, because Donald,

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Speaker 2: that is exactly what we're trying to do. Sure, we're

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Speaker 2: trying to create a piece of entertainment that is interesting,

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Speaker 2: that'll make you laugh, hopefully on occasion when I'm accidentally

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Speaker 2: humorous and funny and maybe tug on your heartstrings, and

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Speaker 2: you know, there's got to be entertain value so people

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Speaker 2: will listen. But the overarching idea is to create a

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Speaker 2: movement of people that don't care about who you are,

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Speaker 2: where you're from, or what you're about, but are celebrating

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Speaker 2: the good that we can do for one another our communities.

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Speaker 2: And to hear Donald say that he's used some of

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Speaker 2: our thoughts in a sermons and that he is pushing

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Speaker 2: the narrative of the Army of Normal Folks podcast, but

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Speaker 2: also the movement out into his community is just phenomenal

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Speaker 2: and I'm more than grateful for folks like Donald. So

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Speaker 2: if any of you would be open to becoming a

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Speaker 2: premium member of the Army as well and help us

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Speaker 2: build this movement, please visit Normalfolks dot u us slash

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Speaker 2: premium and if you be interested in leaving us a

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Speaker 2: voice smell as well about why you're a member of

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Speaker 2: the Army and how it's impacted you, make sure to

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Speaker 2: call the Badger hotline, named after our boy Badger, the

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Speaker 2: truck driver who recommended we set it up. The number

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Speaker 2: is nine oh one three five two one three six six. Guys,

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Speaker 2: we're not just trying to entertain you. We're trying to

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Speaker 2: interact with you. Call us, email us, let us know

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Speaker 2: what's on your mind and we will respond.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I just I had It was

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Speaker 1: just such a like everything collided and collapsed on me

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Speaker 1: at one time. It was everything that I thought I

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Speaker 1: believed about the world wasn't true. I couldn't outwork this,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't help her through that journey.

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Speaker 2: If it's to be, it's up to me that no

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00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 2: longer holds true.

433
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: False.

434
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: God, you wanted to live more than anything in the world,

435
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: and it was not up to you.

436
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: Nope.

437
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: So not only do you lose your wife and you

438
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: have this business you're trying to grow and now a

439
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: five and six year old boy, you're also at a

440
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: at a at a personal crisis of identity and what

441
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: you believed in your whole life.

442
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, is the perfect storm. So how'd you handle it?

443
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: And the worst way possible. What I remember about it

444
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: is I remember, after that happened, our families had sacrificed

445
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: so much to care for us through that journey that

446
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: I just want wanted them to go home and start

447
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: their life back. So I send everybody home, go home,

448
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: live your life. I'm good.

449
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: I got it.

450
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: And secondly, anything that has anything to do with cancer

451
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: get the hell out of my house. That's all I remember.

452
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: And then I started experiencing things that were really foreign

453
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: to me. I had lost the flavor of life. Never

454
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. But I couldn't. I

455
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: couldn't get up in the morning. I didn't want to

456
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: do anything. I couldn't even I didn't know what that was,

457
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: but that's what it was. I just thought I was dying,

458
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: Like it feels like you're suffocating internally, but it's never

459
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: happened to me. I don't know what it is. We're

460
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: two thousand miles away from home. You know. I've experienced

461
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: an awful lot of physical pa. It's not fun wrestling, well, yeah,

462
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: fighting and wrestling and doing what meatheads do knowledge their

463
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: scholarship boys do. Yeah, but I've never experienced emotional pain

464
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: like that like I would. I would get I'd take

465
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: a punch in the nose any day over having that

466
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: your heartbreak. And yeah, I didn't know how to deal

467
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: with it.

468
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: So you boys, how how are they handling it?

469
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't know.

470
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: That's stuff too.

471
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I think that part of it

472
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: is for all of us. It was surreal. It was like,

473
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I think it took a long

474
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: time to come to grips with what had just really happened.

475
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: And I think that was probably more so with them.

476
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: You know, they had to ever experienced somebody die that

477
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: they loved. So I think it just took a long

478
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: time for that to set in, and it probably set

479
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: in in different stages and manifested those feelings and emotions

480
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: in different times and ways. But I wasn't healthy enough

481
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: to I mean, I was in a very very dark place,

482
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: which crushes me. You know two things about that, other

483
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: than the tragedy itself that crushed me, is I was

484
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: raised that character was one of the one of the

485
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: one of the things a man was supposed to possess,

486
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: and that character reveals itself when things get hard, not

487
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: when things are easy. And when things when things got hard,

488
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: I crumbled. So I'm not who I thought I was.

489
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm a fraud. That's hard to to have not been

490
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: able to demonstrate that character at a time where my

491
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: kids needed me the most. That's just that's just that

492
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: destroys me. It destroyed me. And the way that manifests

493
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: is I self medicated in the way that I knew

494
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: how is to hurt other people. I don't know what

495
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: to do. I just stayed in the house and then

496
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: my friends would come pick me up and I would

497
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: never go out with them. And one night they did,

498
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 1: and we went out. Somebody said something and I was

499
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: just like a ticking time, like I don't even know

500
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: what happened. I just punched them and it's like, for

501
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: the first time that pain went away for a minute.

502
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: It's like I want to do that again because of

503
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: the adrenaline.

504
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what the physiological response was,

505
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: but that emotional.

506
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: So you get a bar fight and this's first time

507
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: you feel good since your wife dies. Oh, that's dangerous,

508
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: especially for a guy who's learned his whole life how

509
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: to fight pretty well.

510
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: Felt really good. Wow, So what does.

511
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: It make you feel like today? Knowing that that felt

512
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: really good?

513
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: Then, man, it's just so scary that, apart from Christ,

514
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: the things that are that will draw to to try

515
00:29:53,480 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: to navigate through life are are so destructive and they

516
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: always start out appearing like they're not because of how

517
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: they make you feel in the beginning.

518
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: That sums up the word temptation.

519
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just you know, yeah, especially if you

520
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: don't have if you don't have a faith, if you

521
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: don't have a real profound faith, then we don't have

522
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: that internal gps that if you make a wrong turn,

523
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: it says, recalculating and get back on the right road.

524
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: It's like without that GPS, you just keep making wrong

525
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: turns and next thing you know, you're in a place

526
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: that you couldn't imagine.

527
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,239
Speaker 2: You and I are cut from the same costs. One

528
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: of the things I talk about so much all the

529
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: time in speeches and all is having a compass. And

530
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: then if you got an airplane in DC, flew all

531
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: the way around the world back to d C, and

532
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: your compass was off only three degrees by the time

533
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: you got back to DC, you would actually end up

534
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: north of Nova Scotia. Yeah, three degrees. And without that compass,

535
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: with the true deuce setting, you will end up so

536
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: far off course you don't even know where you are

537
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: in your life. And that's what you're saying.

538
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: Yep, that's what's been true in my life. And then,

539
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: of course I have the privilege now of walking with

540
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: people that find themselves in places, in dark places that

541
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 1: they can't see a path forward, and I see that

542
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: same story play out.

543
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: It's consistent.

544
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: It's the same story manifesting different ways for different reasons,

545
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: but it's the same story.

546
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: So you hit this dude, you get to fight and

547
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: you briefly feel good. Yea, that means you're going to

548
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: go do it again.

549
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: I want as much of that as I can get.

550
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: So the next night, I don't know if it was

551
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: the next night, but it was, and it was everywhere.

552
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: If you pulled in front of me on the road,

553
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 1: I'm on you. Yeah.

554
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: But the next so you think your depression became rage,

555
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: and the rage actually became an outlet to offset the

556
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: sickness of the depression inside your own body.

557
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: I was searching for a way to self mandicate and

558
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: I don't, and it was rage at this point. At

559
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: this point, I needed to feel better. I was suffocating,

560
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: and the same way that you would fight for a

561
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: breath if somebody was choking you, I was fighting for

562
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: I was fighting for something that would allow me to

563
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: breathe for a minute.

564
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's profound.

565
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: And the only thing that worked is when I heard

566
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: other people.

567
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not proud of that, so maybe not the

568
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: next type. But shortly after that first.

569
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: Back at the same bar, we get in a big

570
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: bar fight. It spills out in the parking lot. Police

571
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: are on their way, so I jump in a car

572
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: where some people fleeing.

573
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: Bad car.

574
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, just jumped in the back seat of a

575
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: car that was flying and went flying through the parking

576
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: lot trying to get away, and unfortunately it were Mexican

577
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: mafia running cocaine up and down the West Coast, and

578
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: they took me back to their apartment. I'd never seen

579
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: cocaine before, but I'm out. You're in a bar fight here,

580
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: the cops are coming.

581
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: You jump in a random car, and you end up

582
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: in the apartment of Mexican drug mafia cartel people. That's

583
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: almost that's Hollywood would write that, because it's almost two

584
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: insane that happens. Meanwhile, you have a business and two

585
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: children at home. You were spiraling, bro. Yeah, so you

586
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: said you'd never seen cocaine before.

587
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: But I did it that night and and like like

588
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: hurting other people, it gave me a relief, but it lasted,

589
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: and I don't have to hurt other people, and I

590
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: could do it over and over again. So cocaine ain't's good.

591
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: It was till it wasn't.

592
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: What did that look like?

593
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: Oh, well, we've seen it happen unfortunately in too many

594
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: people's lives, but it is. It is the darkest, most evil, desperate. Uh,

595
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to describe it, but it is.

596
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: It is utter, I think it. If it's hell, I mean,

597
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: if hell is the absence of God, then that's what

598
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: that is, the absence of anything good. Delusia, kids, No,

599
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: delus your business. Yeah a bit, well, not through, not

600
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: through that, but eventually, So.

601
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: Take me through kind of that? How that worked? What happened?

602
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: Well, I, I continued, I was alone, so nobody knew.

603
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: Oh so the family back home, Yeah, I get it.

604
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 1: Nobody knew.

605
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: And of course, like anything you're not proud of, you're

606
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 2: hiding it.

607
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, and then you become a liar because it's

608
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: just part and parcel with addiction, is is deception. You

609
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: have to live that life. I hate to drink, but

610
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: you can't do cocaine and not drink because at some

611
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: point you have to stop. And the only way you

612
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: can stop and calm down is you have to You

613
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: have to tell you something to sedate you, to slow

614
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: you down. And so this day, let's either heroin or

615
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: something to counter at some time, after three or four

616
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: days you have to stop, and some you have to

617
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: use week or four days. You would do this stuff

618
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: for three or four days straight I don't could you

619
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: even sleep? No, No, hows your body functioned? I don't know.

620
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean unfortunately a lot. I mean, we lose one

621
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: hundred thousand men and women in this country every day

622
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: to overdose. And God just spared me from that because

623
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: there's no way.

624
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: So your family does know until I guess they do

625
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: until they do, and then.

626
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: You know. I went to rehab, jumped out of the

627
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: window the first night, and then they did an intervention

628
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: and said, if you don't take this seriously and don't

629
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: do it because you want to do it, not because

630
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: we're forcing you, we're taking the kids. And I wouldn't

631
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: have lived. I mean I was on the precipice anyway,

632
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: and as sick as it is, I love my kids deeply,

633
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: even though that was even though you couldn't have told

634
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: it by how I was living my life, and if

635
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: they weren't in my life, I would have lost everything.

636
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: So I went.

637
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our gender sponsors, But

638
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: first I hope you'll consider signing up to join the

639
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: army at normal folks dot us. By signing up, you'll

640
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,479
Speaker 2: receive a weekly email with short episodes summaries in case

641
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: you happen to miss an episode, or if you prefer

642
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 2: reading about our incredible guests, we'll be right back.

643
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: They put me on a suicide watch.

644
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: Were you suicidal?

645
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: I don't, well, I was trying to be suicided by

646
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: somebody I wouldn't have done. But I mean, were you

647
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: cognitively looking for waste keys? So even though your lifestyle

648
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: was going to kill you, if somebody would have shot me,

649
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: I would have been grateful. Wow, like I didn't care,

650
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: But I don't. I don't think I would have done

651
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: it myself. But I wouldn't have thought i'd have done

652
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: any of that stuff, right, I have no idea. I

653
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: just wouldn't participate and I wouldn't eat. And so they

654
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: put me on suicide watch. Got it, And so I

655
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: went on a hunger strike for a while, and then

656
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: they were worried about me, so they sent a couple

657
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 1: of guys down.

658
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: Well, a former wrestler knows how to go on hunger strike.

659
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,959
Speaker 2: He'd done it before. Then he scared him. I've done

660
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: that day. I had to make waight ten times of

661
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: my life. I'm not worried about this.

662
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: So they sent a couple of guys down to talk

663
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: to me and one I think when you get sober, well,

664
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: for me, when you get sober, the hardest part is

665
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: the shame. The shame was way worse than getting sober.

666
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: The shame that follows the sobriety is the thing that

667
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: will send you right back where you came from, because

668
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: you're now aware of what you've done and it's so

669
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: ugly and you have to face.

670
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: That if it's to be to me, same game, that

671
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: thing has to keep playing over and over in your head.

672
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: I wrestle with that demon to this day, you know,

673
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: And when you love to think about I watch your

674
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: documentary and you run so hard caring for and loving

675
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: for and trying to make the difference that needs to

676
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: happen for those young men. And if you outrun God

677
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: in that, it's equally is it's just another deception. It

678
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: becomes another self God.

679
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: Bro man, Do I know that? And do I know

680
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: you can out run your family too? Yeah, And that's

681
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: equally well. If you're outrunning your family, you're out running God.

682
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: That's what I was.

683
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: That's well put right, and I do that all the time.

684
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: Balance of stuff following Christ is stuff. The balance happens

685
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: if you put Him first. So these two guys were

686
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 1: they One of them was a doctor that had started

687
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: writing his own prescriptions to himself, and another one was

688
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: attorney that just started drinking beer when he would come

689
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: home after work, and it turned into drinking beer when

690
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: he woke up for breakfast. But in the end, they

691
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: were good, normal people that wound up in a bad place,

692
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: and they were not better yet, but they were better

693
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: than when they came. It was like, well, crap, now

694
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: that I've seen it, if they can do it, I

695
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: can do it. And so I started participating because I

696
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: saw guys that were demonstrating that they could rebuild their life.

697
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: I didn't believe that was possible for me. So I

698
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: started participating that I believe it was the may have

699
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: been the first day or the second day after I

700
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: started participating, they told me I need to go visit

701
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: a spiritual counselor. And I thought, no, man, you don't

702
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 1: want me. Here's the thing, Bill, I didn't believe in God,

703
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Bassed off at him. Well, how

704
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: can you be pissed off as something that doesn't exist?

705
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: You know. I remember after recovery leaving Oregon and as

706
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: I was crossing into Eyenahoe saying this prayer, thank you

707
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: God for giving me a fresh start. I'm going to

708
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: go some ways and never speak of this again. I'm

709
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: starting a new life. I don't there's no need to

710
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: even revisit that. And of course he laughed because he

711
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: didn't bring me through it, not to share it and

712
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: to leverage that to help other people that are struggling

713
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: in that way in many other ways.

714
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: Bro, The thing I find so interesting is what you

715
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: just said, which is I didn't believe in God, but

716
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: I was mad at him.

717
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people like that. That's not uncommon. Okay,

718
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: but here's the thing.

719
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you may hate God and you may be mad

720
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: at him, but if you do have an emotional reaction

721
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: to him, then in fact, you do believe it. You

722
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: just don't want to.

723
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the seed of our Creator is in us,

724
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: and we can deny it, but it doesn't mean it's

725
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: not there. That's what I think that was. So like

726
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: in our own flesh, we can say we don't believe,

727
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: but in us there's this seed of our Creator that

728
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: can't be denied. And so it's one of those things

729
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: where our words don't match the reality.

730
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: Okay, so they say you got to go to a

731
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: spiritual advisor, and the reason I said, oh, man, is

732
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: I can just imagine you. I've lost my wife. What

733
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: kind of God can take my thirty year old mother

734
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: of my children from me? I've lost my dignity because

735
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: of what I've done to myself and the shame I'm

736
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: experiencing there, losing my business that I've worked my butt

737
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: off for. I've kind of lost my ethos because clearly,

738
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: if it is to be it's up to me. It

739
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: isn't completely true because I couldn't save my wife and

740
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: now and now you want me to go to.

741
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: Talk to somebody who's going to advise me about a

742
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: deity that I've rejected my whole life, and if I

743
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: do believe in them, all I have form is sustain

744
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: That's where you were.

745
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: Yep.

746
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: Cool. So as Providence would have it, if it was

747
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: a man, I probably it probably would have been if

748
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: what was oh the counselor yeah, I see, I had

749
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: that level of animosity and anger that it might have

750
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: just gotten physical. But as Providence would have it, it

751
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: was about an eighty year old, beautiful, sweet little lady

752
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: that had like eyes that glowed like you couldn't have

753
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 1: animus towards this beautiful lady angel. Yeah, And I wasn't

754
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: ready to hear it, but I listened, And I remember

755
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: the next two nights in my room trying to behind

756
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: a path forward, and I couldn't. Like every scenario I

757
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: came up in my mind is like, there's no coming

758
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: back from this, and so her words kept ringing in

759
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: my head. And the second night, I just couldn't come

760
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: up with an answer, and I fell on my knees

761
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: and said, God, I don't know if you're real or not,

762
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: but if you are, I quit.

763
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: That's it.

764
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: That's it. Now. I'm likely to just totally lose it

765
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: down because what happened right then was I died and

766
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: was born again. Right there, I was in rehab. I

767
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: had tortured my children. My children had been tortured and

768
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: had lost everything, and I had this. I couldn't stop smiling.

769
00:44:53,120 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: If I tried, I was not the same person. Words

770
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: can't describe what happened. Do you think it's that you

771
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: were able to just lay it all at his feet?

772
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: No?

773
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: I think that I died and was born again that day.

774
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: I think what it says that it's no longer I live.

775
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: He lives in me, and yeah, I think part of

776
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: that is him taking it. But that person that was

777
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: there before that pair wasn't there anymore. This isn't who

778
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: I am. I know who I am. I'm the most

779
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: selfish like I know who I was before him, and

780
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm not that person anymore. But it's who I am,

781
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: So what's the difference. It's him living through me, not me.

782
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: I gotta be really careful because that person still is

783
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: under the surface. That's that quite a little voice of

784
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: those things that chirp on your shoulders every day. It

785
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: doesn't go away, it just loses power. But there's this war.

786
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 1: It's not a battle of flesh and blood, but against principalities,

787
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: and that does. War doesn't stop. But you're now, You're

788
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: now born again. He can't snatch you now. You can

789
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: get detracted and fall back and do all kinds of things,

790
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: but you are now his Do things still happen in

791
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: your life today? This is completely curious.

792
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: Do things still happen in your life today that you

793
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: have you feel that tinge and where you could rip

794
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 2: somebody's set off to you. Yes, oh yes, really yes,

795
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: I have to work on it all the time. I

796
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: have to surrender every day. The Gospel is a daily thing.

797
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: I have to die again every day, and the days

798
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: that I don't, the old part starts to resurface. And

799
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: in the world that we've lived in, there's so much

800
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 2: of that chaos and violence all around. I mean, I

801
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 2: haven't been a fight in a long time, so it

802
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: doesn't go there. But the part that triggers it is

803
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 2: does it enter your mind?

804
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: Do you give it space? That is such an amazing,

805
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: profound lesson what you just said to me. I've never

806
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: heard anybody say it that way.

807
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: And I'm having a hard time moving on your story

808
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: to get past it because I'm absorbing it right now.

809
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: But you're saying there's a war of principalities going on

810
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: all the time inside of us, and the rebirth by

811
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: virtue of your relationship with Christ and God is how

812
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 2: you win that war.

813
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: The only way the adversary will either his mission statements

814
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: the same every day to steal, kill and destroy. That's it.

815
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: You know who he is and that doesn't change, and

816
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: it can either be two ways. He can lull you

817
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: into complacency where you're not effective and you're not a threat,

818
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: and you're also not availing any value to the kingdom.

819
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: Or it can be catastrophic where he actually comes after

820
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: you viscerally and tries to take you out. But they're

821
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: both the same demon, one of them. You're just breathing

822
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: in a bunch of skin, taking up space in this world,

823
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 1: and he's happy with that too.

824
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: So ultimately, if your happiness, your health, your existence on

825
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: the earth is meant to be, it's not up to me,

826
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: not at all.

827
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the only role I have in to play

828
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: into this is to surrender every day. And if you surrender,

829
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: that fosters in obedience, and it's not the work that

830
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: you do, it's a natural byproduct of it, it's what

831
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: flows from it. And I think that's hard for a doer,

832
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: is that I want to I order my obedience to

833
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: be something I do, not a byproduct of surrendering.

834
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: And that concludes part one of my conversation with Darren Babcock,

835
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: and you do not want to miss part two that's

836
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: now available, as you'll hear about the extraordinary fruits that

837
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: have resulted from Darren's surrendering control. Together, guys, we can

838
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 2: change this country, but it starts with you. I'll see

839
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 2: in part two