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Speaker 1: Hey, Jorgey, do you have a lot of cousins in

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Speaker 1: your family?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've got a few. I have maybe over thirty

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Speaker 4: six cousins, maybe around that number.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's a big family. Well, would you be surprised

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Speaker 1: to discover, sort of late in life a brand new

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Speaker 1: cousin you'd never even heard of before.

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Speaker 4: That would be pretty amazing, kind of weird, I guess,

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Speaker 4: but maybe, yeah, I would be surprised, all right.

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Speaker 1: And then what if that cousin turns out to be

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Speaker 1: exactly like you, like, look like you in every single way.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that's getting kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: All right. And then what if this cousin looks exactly

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Speaker 1: like you, except they are two hundred times more.

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Speaker 4: Massive Dan Dan do Hi, I'm Jorge. I'm a cartoonist

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Speaker 4: and the creator of PhD Comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I do

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Speaker 1: not have thirty six cousins.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explore Your Family Tree.

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Speaker 1: In which we examine all the amazing and fascinating things

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Speaker 1: about the universe, about the big things, the small things,

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Speaker 1: and about how things are related to each other.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so no, that's not the name of our podcast.

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Speaker 4: It's actually Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production

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Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio, in which.

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Speaker 1: We do examine crazy things about the universe and we

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Speaker 1: try to make them relatable. We try to present them

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Speaker 1: in a way that you can understand them. So they

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Speaker 1: connect to topics that matter to you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way, we do sort of explore the

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Speaker 4: family tree of the universe. You know, how you came

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Speaker 4: to be here, what sort of pairings and fusions occurred

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Speaker 4: for you to be here in this universe? Appreciating it

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Speaker 4: and listening to funny podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the reasons people are in

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Speaker 1: just did in the origins of the universe and the

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Speaker 1: creations of our cosmosis because they want to understand how

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Speaker 1: we got here and what it means. In the same

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Speaker 1: way people explore their family tree. They want to know

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Speaker 1: where did my family come from, what stories are in

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Speaker 1: our past, what is my personal context? And also I

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Speaker 1: think it's a useful way for us to sort of

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Speaker 1: organize our thoughts. You know, when we think about the

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Speaker 1: universe in terms of particles, we sometimes think about how

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Speaker 1: those particles are related to each other, Like do particles

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Speaker 1: have families?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? And I think you know, every part of anyone's

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Speaker 4: family tree or origin tree kind of tells you a

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Speaker 4: little bit of the story of the whole thing, right,

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Speaker 4: like how you came to be, how things work and

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Speaker 4: how things move about in life.

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Speaker 1: And other ways your life could have gone like, if

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Speaker 1: you have a very successful cousin that's a gazillionaire, then

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Speaker 1: you know you wonder, hmm, could I have made different

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Speaker 1: choices and been a gazillionair Or if be people's paths

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Speaker 1: in life diverge.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, or if you are that bazillion er cousin, then

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Speaker 4: good for you. Please these contact as we would love

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Speaker 4: to take your donations.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it'd be awesome to have at least one

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Speaker 1: gazillionaire listener. Who is our richest listener? That's a good question.

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Speaker 4: Episode To prove it, you have to send us a check.

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Speaker 4: Whoever sends is the biggest check that doesn't bounds. When's

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Speaker 4: this little plaque here that I am I'm just now

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Speaker 4: putting together?

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Speaker 1: It's made of platinum?

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, well it's going to be once we get

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Speaker 4: those checks.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you'll get a drawing of a plaque that's made

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Speaker 1: of platinum.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, even more valuable from a well known

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Speaker 4: internet cartoonist.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. But we do try to understand the world around us,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes that means putting things in context and understanding

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Speaker 1: what are the patterns, what are the structures there, and

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Speaker 1: what clues do those patterns give? Us about the sort

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Speaker 1: of fundamental nature of the universe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So today on the podcast, we'll be talking about

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Speaker 4: a particle in nature that is maybe not the most

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Speaker 4: famous one and maybe not the most well known one

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Speaker 4: or consequential in your existence, but which does I think

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Speaker 4: tell you a little bit about and told humanity a

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Speaker 4: little bit about how the universe works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the non gazillionaire cousin. This is the

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Speaker 1: cousin that ended up maybe sleeping under the overpass and

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Speaker 1: wearing funny clothes to the family reunion.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I feel bad for this particle.

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Speaker 1: Now, this particle doesn't need your help. It's very massive.

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Speaker 4: Yes, In today's episode, we'll be talking about the muon

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Speaker 4: Electron's mysterious, lesser known, much more massive cousin.

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Speaker 1: And I'm biased, of course, because I'm a particle physicist,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's really fascinating to think about how

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Speaker 1: we know each particle is there. We talk about the

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Speaker 1: standard model of particle physics sometimes, but that's a theoretical

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Speaker 1: construct that's like our idea for how these particles might

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Speaker 1: relate to each other. And that's fascinating and we'll dig

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Speaker 1: into all that. But I think it's also really important

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Speaker 1: to remember each of these were discovered. There is a

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Speaker 1: story behind each particle. Humanity didn't know it existed and

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Speaker 1: then boom, some experiment revealed it. And on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about the first discovery of the particle, how

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Speaker 1: the whole concept of a particle was created, the electron.

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Speaker 1: Then we talked about how we know the photon is

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Speaker 1: a thing, how we know it's really a particle, the

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Speaker 1: photo electric effect, And so now we're going to take

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Speaker 1: the next step and talk about the discovery of the muon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because you know, I think that every particle tells

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Speaker 4: a story, you know, and also every story is made

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Speaker 4: out of particle. So there's kind of this really weird

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Speaker 4: confusing loop there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like the Superhero Origin story particle version.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So the muon is not a name that rolls

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Speaker 4: off the tongue. Makes me think of maybe cows muons, maybe.

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Speaker 1: Muon muon mew off, muon mew off. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: sort of a karate kid thing there.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's back to the eighties references.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, back to the eight references. And it's funny actually

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Speaker 1: because the name muon is totally inappropriate. We'll dig into

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Speaker 1: it later, But they named it before they discovered it

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Speaker 1: because they thought it was going to be a different particle,

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Speaker 1: and then they sort of changed the name later. It's

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Speaker 1: not a great history for naming particles.

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Speaker 4: Oh boy, my favorite topic in science.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I was wondering, how much do people

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Speaker 1: know about Muon's. Is it a famous particle or is

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Speaker 1: it sort of the darker cousin of the electron that

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Speaker 1: nobody really knows about. Hasn't gotten the same Instagram attention.

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Speaker 4: The black sheep, the goateea wearing particle of the family tree.

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Speaker 1: Now you're setting it up to be like the grumpy particle.

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Speaker 1: It's going to come in with some evil plan to

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Speaker 1: finally get its revenge, and it's.

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Speaker 4: You already made this particle, the homeless particle that lives

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Speaker 4: under a bridge.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that was the sad particle that deserves our

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Speaker 1: love and compassion, not the one that's been plotting its

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Speaker 1: victorious return to the center of attention.

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Speaker 4: Well, you never know what these particles, you know, Physics

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Speaker 4: is full of surprises.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot of drama. But as usual, I

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Speaker 1: walked around and I asked people if they knew what

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Speaker 1: the muon was and how we knew it was a thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So before you listen to these answers, think about

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Speaker 4: it for a second. If someone asks you what a

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Speaker 4: muon is, would you know what it is? Have you

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Speaker 4: heard it before? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, it's a unit of measure.

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Speaker 5: It's like one of the fundamental elements or particle of

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Speaker 5: what makes up everything.

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Speaker 4: A mew on.

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Speaker 6: Now, I believe this to be the name of a

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Speaker 6: sub atomic particle.

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Speaker 4: Luons muon's uh, shoot, I don't remember what classification they

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Speaker 4: fall on her as far as the naming conventions.

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Speaker 1: Fundamental particle some sort. It's real small sub atomic particles,

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Speaker 1: kind of resemed what it does. How do we know

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Speaker 1: muons exist? Particles? So what's your opinion of these answers today?

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Speaker 4: Pretty good? It sounds like most people have heard it

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Speaker 4: or I heard of the word before, you know, very

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Speaker 4: only a few people said never heard.

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Speaker 1: Of it mm hmmm, or think it was a unit

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Speaker 1: of measure, like you know, how much water? Would you like,

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Speaker 1: I'll have seven muons of water.

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Speaker 4: I wonder that if you pronounced it correctly, maybe they

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Speaker 4: knew about it, but just under a different pronunciation.

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Speaker 1: You think I'm mispronouncing the name of Muon.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, what's the correct way? Is

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Speaker 4: it Muon or Muon?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 1: And you're making it sound like a Disney movie, like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: my favorite Disney princess is Mulan.

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Speaker 4: My favorite Disney prince is Muon Muan.

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Speaker 1: Oh. That is a great way, though, to get more

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Speaker 1: attention for particles in the mainstream. We should get Disney

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Speaker 1: to name the next Disney princess after a particle.

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Speaker 4: Mm why not? Why it could be the next Pixar movie.

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Speaker 4: What it's like. What's the emotional roller coaster right of

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Speaker 4: being a fundamental particle of nature?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So much to explore there, and I expect that

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Speaker 1: we will be getting checks from Pixar when they make

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Speaker 1: a billion dollar movie out of it. But I was

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Speaker 1: impressed with these answers, though, I want to pick a

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Speaker 1: bone about one thing. People say, yes, it's a fundamental particle,

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Speaker 1: totally cool. People also say it's a sub atomic particle

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Speaker 1: or it's one of the fundamental particles that make up everything.

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Speaker 1: And that's really a key idea that I think people

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Speaker 1: have not understood about muons, that you can be a

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Speaker 1: tiny particle and not be subatomic not be part of

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Speaker 1: the atom.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I see, sub atomic doesn't just mean it's smaller

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Speaker 4: than atom. You're saying that, it means that you're part

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Speaker 4: of the atom.

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Speaker 1: Remember, fundamental particles have no size there dots, They are

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Speaker 1: zero volumes, so they're all smaller than the atom in

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Speaker 1: that sense. So being fundamental guarantees you to be smaller

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Speaker 1: than the atom. I think to me, sub atomic means

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Speaker 1: it's part of the atom, like you break it up

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Speaker 1: and you find it inside the atom.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so we'll get into that, but let's break it

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Speaker 4: down for people. For us, what is a muon and

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Speaker 4: why does it sound like an electron? You know it

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Speaker 4: ends with on but maybe but it's not the electron.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it really is related to the electron. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of like the electron's cousin. And by that I

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Speaker 1: mean that it's identical to the electron in so many ways.

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Speaker 1: It has the same electric charge, it has the same

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Speaker 1: interactions with matter, like it interacts via the weak force

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Speaker 1: and via the electromagnetic force, but it doesn't feel the

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Speaker 1: strong force just like the electron. It has a neutrino,

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Speaker 1: just like the electron has its neutrino. So in so

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Speaker 1: many ways, it's exactly the same as the electron. Sound

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Speaker 1: like when you discover a new particle and it's totally different,

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Speaker 1: like a quark or a glu on, it's just completely

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Speaker 1: different from the electron. This one is very very similar

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Speaker 1: to the electron. It's like weirdly similar, but then with

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Speaker 1: one important difference.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so it's a particle. Let's start down.

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Speaker 1: It's not a cow, it's not a Disney princess.

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Speaker 4: So it's a particle, meaning like it's a it's one

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Speaker 4: of these things that you see in nature in the universe,

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Speaker 4: like things that pop up and you can touch them,

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Speaker 4: and and it's a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, muons are a thing. They are a little thing.

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Speaker 1: There are particles, and they are little dots of matter.

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Speaker 1: They have mass and they have charge and they interact.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so it's a particle like the electron. But you're

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Speaker 4: saying and you say, it's a cousin of the electron,

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Speaker 4: not that they share like not that their parents were siblings,

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Speaker 4: but just like in the sense that it's very similar

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Speaker 4: to the electron.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when we organize our knowledge, we look for patterns,

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Speaker 1: we look for similarities. Right like when we were one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago, when the state of knowledge about the

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Speaker 1: universe was the periodic table. We didn't just have like

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Speaker 1: a pile of different elements and say here's an element.

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Speaker 1: There's an element. We said, oh, look, this one is

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Speaker 1: similar to that one. They're both really active, or these

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Speaker 1: are really similar because they're both really inactive, or this

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Speaker 1: one weighs a tiny bit more than that one. We

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Speaker 1: notice patterns. We put those patterns together in the same way.

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Speaker 1: We're looking for patterns in the fundamental particles. So we

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Speaker 1: try to figure out which ones are related to each other.

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Speaker 1: And we have only a few handles on each particle.

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Speaker 1: It's only like a few things we can know about

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Speaker 1: a particle.

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Speaker 4: Right, And so is this a particle that we can

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Speaker 4: see in our everyday lives, like is it floating around?

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Speaker 4: Does it move around wires and electri electricity like the electron?

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Speaker 4: Or is this kind of a weird one of those

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Speaker 4: weird particles? And you know you don't ever actually.

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Speaker 1: See Yeah, you don't see the muon because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: last for very long. It lives for two point two

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Speaker 1: microseconds and then it turns into an electron and some neutrinos,

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Speaker 1: but they are actually everywhere. There's ten thousand muons going

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Speaker 1: through a square meter of Earth every minute, So there's

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Speaker 1: lots of muons everywhere, but you just can't really see

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Speaker 1: them very easily because they don't last very long.

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Speaker 4: Wait wait, I mean, how can they be everywhere but

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Speaker 4: also only last two point two microseconds? Does that mean

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Speaker 4: that they're constantly coming into existence, lasting for two point

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Speaker 4: two microseconds and then disappearing and breaking up or what

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Speaker 4: does that mean? How can they be all around is

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Speaker 4: but also evaporating at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's two things going on there. One is right,

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Speaker 1: they're being created when particles hit the atmosphere. So protons

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Speaker 1: hit the atmosphere and they create a shower of particles,

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Speaker 1: some of which include muons, and those muons fly along

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but they don't last very long, just

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Speaker 1: two point two microseconds, and then they turn into electrons.

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Speaker 1: But they last for two point two microseconds according to

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Speaker 1: their clocks. Because they move really fast, there's a relativistic

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Speaker 1: time dilation, so they're according to us that two point

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Speaker 1: two microseconds takes longer to click, and so for us

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Speaker 1: it can take like seconds or minutes for muons to decay.

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Speaker 4: Oh but for them. If you were sitting on top

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Speaker 4: of the muon, mm hmm, it would only last You

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Speaker 4: would only be alive for two point two microseconds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the half life of a muon. So muon

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Speaker 1: is not stable. It's not like an electron. It can

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Speaker 1: just sit there for eons and eons and just be itself.

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Speaker 1: A muon is a heavy particle, and heavy particles like

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Speaker 1: to decay into lighter particles. In this case, the muon

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Speaker 1: turns into an electron very quickly according to its clock.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I see the ones that we see, the ones

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Speaker 4: coming from the Atmosphe are moving fast, so they last longer.

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Speaker 4: But if I just created a muon here in front

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Speaker 4: of me, it would last only for two point two microseconds,

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Speaker 4: and it's not going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. If you could break muons in your oven,

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Speaker 1: you take them out of the oven two point two

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Speaker 1: microseconds later, boom they turn into election.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, gotta eat them up real quick.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. They're like making fortune cookies or.

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Speaker 4: Toss them really fast, have them pop out of toaster

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Speaker 4: really fast, in which case it would last longer.

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Speaker 1: Technically, right, that's true, Yeah, exactly. Somebody could shoot muons

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Speaker 1: into your mouth and it would last long enough to

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Speaker 1: get there. I wouldn't recommend that though, that's not a

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Speaker 1: suggestion for something somebody should do. And actually two point

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Speaker 1: two microseconds is kind of a long time for a

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Speaker 1: particle that's this massive to last mm.

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Speaker 4: So what does it mean that it disappears or breaks

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Speaker 4: up like it's just unstable, like it just it's made

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00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 4: out of other things and it breaks up, or it

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00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,960
Speaker 4: literally just kind of evaporates into energy and that energy

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Speaker 4: turns into something else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. These are fundamental particles, so

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Speaker 1: they're not made up of anything else. As far as

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Speaker 1: we know. The muon turns into the electron. It's not

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Speaker 1: like it has an electron inside of it, and it

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Speaker 1: breaks up into an electron and other stuff it converts.

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Speaker 1: It goes from a muon, it turns via the weak

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Speaker 1: force into a W particle and a neutrino, and then

349
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Speaker 1: the W particle turns into an electron and another neutrino.

350
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Speaker 1: So the muon turns into an electron and two different neutrinos,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't have those bits inside of it. Remember,

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Speaker 1: particle physics is like alchemy. We can convert one kind

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Speaker 1: of matter into another kind of matter.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so it's it doesn't break apart, it's just somehow

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Speaker 4: it's very existence. The universe sort of doesn't like it,

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Speaker 4: like it it can It just ceazes to exist and

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Speaker 4: in favor of other things existing instead of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is true for every particle that is

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Speaker 1: pretty massive. The universe doesn't like massive particles. It's like

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Speaker 1: putting a particle on the top of a hill. Eventually

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Speaker 1: it's going to roll down. And so the muon is

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Speaker 1: like the at the top of the hill, and the

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Speaker 1: electron is rolling down to the bottom of the hill.

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Speaker 1: Eventually the mion is going to turn into the electron.

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Speaker 1: And every particle in nature that can do this does this.

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Speaker 1: The only reason the electron doesn't is that there's no

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Speaker 1: lighter particle for it to turn into.

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Speaker 4: Oh, and that's why we are able to exist, because yes,

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Speaker 4: the universe does seem to like electrons and quarks, which

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Speaker 4: make us up, and so that's why we're stable. But

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Speaker 4: if we were made out of neons, we would disappear

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Speaker 4: pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. We are made up of the lightest particles

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Speaker 1: out there, up quarks and down quarks. Of the lightest

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Speaker 1: quarks electrons of the lightest version of that kind of

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Speaker 1: particle called e lepton. So the matter that makes us

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Speaker 1: up that stable is made out of stuff that can't

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Speaker 1: turn into lighter stuff because there is no lighter stuff

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Speaker 1: for it to turn into.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, there's nothing for it to turn into, so

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Speaker 4: we stay where we are. But a meon is heavy

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Speaker 4: and could turn into something else.

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Speaker 1: So it does precisely. And for those of you wondering, like, well,

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Speaker 1: what about a photon, Why can't an electron turn into

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Speaker 1: a photon. A photon is massless, Well, remember that there

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Speaker 1: are rules about how these things happen, and one of

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Speaker 1: those rules is conservation of electric charge. An electron has

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Speaker 1: a minus one charge, so it can't turn into a photon,

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Speaker 1: which has zero charge, because you'd have to somehow disappear

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Speaker 1: that charge. The only way for that to happen is

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Speaker 1: for an electron to hit a plus one positron and

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Speaker 1: then they can turn into a photon together. But for

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Speaker 1: a particle to just spontaneously decay, it has to convert

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Speaker 1: to another particle that has all the same sort of

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanical numbers.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so the meuon is the electron's massive cousin or

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Speaker 4: massive sort of like alternate universe version of the electron.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's two hundred times the mass of the electron.

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Speaker 1: It's really really massive.

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Speaker 4: That's a lot. It's like two hundred meters crunch into

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Speaker 4: the same meat.

402
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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. It's like if you met another version of you,

403
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Speaker 1: but you weren't bigger, you were denser or something. You're

404
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Speaker 1: two hundred times as much mass, but still fundamental.

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Speaker 4: And it doesn't hang around existence very long. It usually

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Speaker 4: breaks up into or not breaks up, but it turns

407
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Speaker 4: into lighter particles, so we don't really seed around that much.

408
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Speaker 4: But still it's sort of an important part of the universe,

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Speaker 4: and it seems that it's a important part of the

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Speaker 4: universe and also tells us a lot about the mysteries

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Speaker 4: of how everything is put together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it actually lasts a long time for a

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Speaker 1: heavy particle. Other particles that are heavy, like the Higgs boson,

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Speaker 1: they decay much more quickly. They decay in like ten

415
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Speaker 1: to the minus twenty seconds, whereas this one decays very slowly.

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Speaker 1: It's just two point two microseconds. And the reason is

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Speaker 1: that it decays via the weak force, which is very

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Speaker 1: weak to the weaker the force, the longer it takes

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Speaker 1: for that decay to happen.

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Speaker 4: All right, let's get into that a little bit more,

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Speaker 4: and also how it was discovered and why it is

422
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Speaker 4: such an important particle. But first, let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 4: All right, so the muon decays by the weak force?

473
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: What does that mean? How can something decay via a force?

474
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: Like the force makes a decay?

475
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the force sort of provides the avenue for the

476
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: decay to happen. Like, how does a muon turn into

477
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: an electron just and just roll down a hill and say, hey,

478
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: now I'm an electron. It has to there has to

479
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: be an interaction there. And so what happens is the

480
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: muon turns into a W particle and a neutrino in

481
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: the W particle, remember, is the particle of the weak force.

482
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: It's like the weak force version of the photon. And

483
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: so that's what we mean when we say it uses

484
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: the weak force to decay. It just just spontaneously happened.

485
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: Something has to sort of carry that information, something has

486
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: to make it happen. It's like a reaction, and that

487
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: reaction always includes one of the forces. And in this case,

488
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: it uses the weak force.

489
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 4: Right, and that weak force came out of just its

490
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 4: own energy.

491
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: It uses the mass. Right. The muon has a huge

492
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: amount of energy in it because it has so much mass,

493
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: and that mass is turned into the energy of the

494
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: electron and the neutrinos that come out of it. So yeah,

495
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: the weak force turns the mass of the muon into

496
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,239
Speaker 1: very small masses of these other particles and gives them

497
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: a lot of energy.

498
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 4: Right, and it ends up as an electron and two

499
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 4: neutrinos precisely. All right, Well, tell us Daniel, how was

500
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 4: it discovered and why is this an important particle?

501
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: Well, it was discovered initially in cosmic rays. People saw

502
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: these particles just sort of shooting from the sky, and

503
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: they didn't understand what was making them, and they thought, oh, well,

504
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: you know, we found a few particles, so these are

505
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: probably electrons. This is you know, in the early nineteen hundreds,

506
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: we didn't have a really deep understanding of how particles work.

507
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: We didn't have a good bench of particles, and so

508
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: people thought, you know, everything they saw they thought in

509
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: terms of the particles at the time. So they have

510
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: to sort of wind your mind back to what we

511
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: knew at the time. Back then, we knew about protons,

512
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: we knew about neutrons, we knew about electrons, and so

513
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: people saw these particles shooting from the sky. They didn't

514
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: know what made them, but what they saw was that

515
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: they penetrated really far into matter, much more than electrons could.

516
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 4: We saw the actual muons, the not what it looks

517
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 4: like after it decays or turns into something else, like

518
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 4: we actually you can actually see and feel the muons.

519
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: You can't really feel them, but you can make particle

520
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: detectors that can detect them. You can actually do this

521
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: in your garage using something called a cloud chamber. They

522
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: were able to see them using detectors that they put together.

523
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: And these detectors were like a cubic piece of film,

524
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: like remember the old way films worked, where like light

525
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: was exposed on the film. You didn't have a digital

526
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: camera or anything.

527
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 4: And that made some kind of chemical change. You're saying,

528
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 4: you can make like a solid cube of this.

529
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just take a solid cube of it, You

530
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: leave it up on a mount and you leave it

531
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: there for like six months, and then you cart it

532
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 1: back down, or you ask your grad students to do that.

533
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: Then you slice it into pieces and then you can

534
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: develop each of those. And what you do is you

535
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: see all the particles that shot through it in those

536
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: six months, and so they can see and when they

537
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: did this, they saw all these particles shooting through this

538
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: film and they were surprised at how far they were

539
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: going because electrons shouldn't get that far. Electrons penetrate in

540
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: a little bit and then they stop. But these particles

541
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: were shooting all the way through.

542
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 4: It's kind of like a bull in a china shop,

543
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: you know, versus like a mouse in a china shop.

544
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And they didn't understand that. They thought, well, you know,

545
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: are there two kinds of electrons are there. Sometimes electrons

546
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: can penetrate really far. It was really a puzzle at

547
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: the time.

548
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 4: What made them think it was an electron. Why couldn't

549
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 4: it be like a some kind of new atom or something.

550
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: We did know it had negative charge, and so I

551
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: think that's what made people think it was more likely

552
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: to be an electron or something like an electron than

553
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: something positive like inside the nucleus. And remember, at the time,

554
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: we only knew basically about protons, neutrons, and electrons, and

555
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: so everything we saw where like all of a sudden,

556
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: having this imagination that we could explain everything in the

557
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: universe in terms of these particles. And it was a

558
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: great success of the particle model at the time, right,

559
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: like everything could be built out of protons, neutrons, and electrons.

560
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: What a wonderful simplification. And so when we first saw

561
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: these particles that penetrated really far, we thought, well, it

562
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: must be one of those, right, But it was not.

563
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: It was not. And people were able to later produce

564
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: it in the laboratory using collisions and all sorts of

565
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: other stuff, and they discovered that if you put it

566
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: in a magnetic field, it didn't bend as much as

567
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: an electron, and that's when they decided, you know what,

568
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: this must be a different kind of thing. It's like

569
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: a new version of the electron, a different flavor of

570
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: the electron, because it must be more massive, which is

571
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: why it doesn't bend inside the magnetic.

572
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: Field as much, reflected as much because it has so

573
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 4: much mass. It just has more inertia.

574
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: Precisely, it takes a stronger magnetic field to bend a

575
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: muon than it does for an electron. And this was

576
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: kind of a scandal in particle physics at the time.

577
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: Scandal.

578
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, people were upset. They were like, what a muon?

579
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: Who ordered that? Like, we don't need this. We get

580
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: out of here with your ridiculous new particle. We have

581
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: this beautiful description of the universe. We don't want more particles.

582
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 4: Up until then, everything that you knew about helped make

583
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 4: the universe. It's kind of what you're saying, like everything

584
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 4: you knew about had a purpose.

585
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had taken apart the stuff around us and

586
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: found the basic building blocks, and then we didn't. Some

587
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: people were like, I don't want to hear stories about

588
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: other building blocks that could be out there. It just

589
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: sort of confuses the issue, right, it's a shift in

590
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: the question not just what we made out of, but

591
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: what is the basic organizing principle of the universe. It

592
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: shows you all of a sudden that there's a larger

593
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: question you didn't even think to ask.

594
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 4: It's like you find something that you don't know what

595
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: to do with it, Like it doesn't help you with

596
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 4: what you knew about how things work.

597
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're putting together jigsaw puzzle and all of a sudden,

598
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: somebody hands you like a really big piece that just

599
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: doesn't fit, and you're like, what I didn't ask for,

600
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: that I don't need, That doesn't help me with my problem, Like, well,

601
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: but okay, but this piece is here and it's not

602
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: going away.

603
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And so it makes you think that maybe

604
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 4: there's another puzzle, or that the puzzle is bigger than

605
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: you think it is.

606
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: Yes, all of a sudden you realize this is a

607
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: three dimensional puzzle and you've been only playing on two dimensions,

608
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: and it just blows your mind. And so that's it's

609
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: sort of an earthquake, an intellectual earthquake through the field

610
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: at the moment. But also it's a great opportunity. Those

611
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: are the kind of discoveries that make you realize, Wow,

612
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: there's a whole larger question to ask, and there's a

613
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: whole world of answers out there. And of course now

614
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: we know there's not just the mew on, this also

615
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: the tao, which is the even heavier version of it,

616
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: and then every particle has these cousins. Yeah.

617
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 4: I like how this counts as a scandal in physics,

618
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: Like was it on the front page of the Daily

619
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 4: Physics News or the National Inquiring Inquirer of physics newspapers?

620
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: People have to all the tabloids.

621
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 4: People had to give testimony about this, and there were.

622
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: You know, physicists are not that exciting, so we just

623
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: got to create drama wherever we can see. There was

624
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: even more drama because some people had predicted the existence

625
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: of a particle sort of similar to this.

626
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: Hmmm, what do you mean predicted like just just guessing.

627
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there was a famous physicist named Yukaba the

628
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: Genius and won a Nobel Prize for all sorts of

629
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: fascinating stuff, and he was trying to understand the strong force.

630
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: He was like, okay, the weak force, we have that one.

631
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: We have the photon for the electromagnetism, but what mediates

632
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: the strong force? And he did some calculations that he thought, hmm,

633
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: I bet there's a particle out there about two hundred

634
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: times the mass of the electron and it mediates the

635
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: strong force, all right, So that's his prediction, right, And

636
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: back in the day, physics would just make predictions like

637
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: here's my idea and here's what I predict.

638
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 4: Like we need this for this for what we know

639
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 4: to make sense.

640
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like with the Higgs boson, Peter Higgs said,

641
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense to me, but if you look

642
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: at the universe in a new way, then it makes

643
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: more sense. And this new way predicts a new particle,

644
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: so you can test my theory. So that was what

645
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: Yukawa did, and he predicted a new particle about two

646
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: hundred times the mass of the electron. Then they found

647
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: this particle and Yukawa was like, whoo, I was right.

648
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: But it turns out this particle has nothing to do

649
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: with this strong force at all. So it's just like

650
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: a coincidence, right, And he still got the Nobel Prize.

651
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: He still got the Nobel Prize, but not for this

652
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 1: and not for this one. But he's sort of the

653
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: reason why this particle has a strange name.

654
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: Oh really, he was a fan of cows.

655
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if he liked Kobe Beef, you know,

656
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: the guy's Japanese or anything, but he you know, we

657
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: had the electron, which is really really light, and we

658
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: had the proton, which is like two thousand times the

659
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: mass of the electron, and he predicted a particle sort

660
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: of at an intermediate mass, and so he wanted it

661
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: called like the you know, the mesotron something where mazo

662
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: means like middle, and so that was the sort of

663
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: the origin of this, like, let's call these particles here,

664
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, in this mass region, we'll call the meso particles.

665
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 4: Wow, what don't you have to call it the messo

666
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: on or meson on or I feel like, just to

667
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: be consistent here.

668
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: And then later people were like, well, it's not just

669
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: really have anything to do with these other particles that

670
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: we found in the same mass, but we'll just keep

671
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: calling it the muon anyway.

672
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 4: Right, I bet you wanted to call it the meon.

673
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so smart on.

674
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, but this is where like, come on, dude.

675
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: But it's a it's a fascinating moment in physics because.

676
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 4: Like the or the yuon is themeon, how about we

677
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 4: call it the miuon done compromise.

678
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: That's exactly how these decisions get made, and that's why

679
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: we have such terrible names for particles.

680
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, but now it's so it's not a well

681
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 4: known thing, like everyone knows about muon's. Do they know

682
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: that they're there? And you can study them? You can,

683
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 4: you can. They're going through our bodies right now at

684
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 4: ten thousand times per minute.

685
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, ten thousand muons per square meter per minute. And

686
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 1: you're right. At first it was totally exotic and what

687
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: is this weird thing? And now we know it's a

688
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: relative of the electron, but also created another field, which

689
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: is cosmic ray physics. It was the first cosmic ray scene.

690
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: And at first people weren't sure, like where are these

691
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: particles coming from? We know they're coming down from the sky,

692
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: but are they made in the sky or whatever? And

693
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: people did all these crazy experiments, like balloon experiments where

694
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: they shot detectors up into the atmosphere with balloons and

695
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: discovered that the higher up you go, the more muons

696
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: there are, and that tells you that like muons are

697
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: being created in the upper atmosphere, and then they're decaying

698
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: as they sort of come down to Earth. And finally

699
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: people put together this picture that like particles were hitting

700
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: the top of the atmosphere and creating these showers of particles,

701
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: and we were just sort of picking up the little

702
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: last bits of the fireworks as they hit the surface.

703
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 4: Right. I bet they'd also try to shoot a cout

704
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 4: to the moon. That's really inspiration.

705
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: Well, you know how the Russians put a dog in

706
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: one of their first attempts to go to space. I

707
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: won't comment as to whether particle physicists ever used a

708
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: weather balloon to launch a cow.

709
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're like, we gotta up those Russians a dog.

710
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: Anyone can launch a dog into space. Law.

711
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: This is this is well before the space race. This

712
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: is the cow race. But I love thinking about what

713
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: it must have been to be a physicist at that

714
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: time and to it like crack open a whole new

715
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: era of discovery by by you know, putting photographic plates

716
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: up on mountains and just seeing like what's up there.

717
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: There's so many amazing things to discover. Someone like new

718
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: world were opened up. They discover that all this invisible

719
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: stuff is happening around us. That's really wonderful to sort

720
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: of like crack open a new way of looking at

721
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: the universe.

722
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, let's get into the last bit here,

723
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: which is what does the muon teaches? What does it

724
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 4: tell us about how the universe is put together? But first,

725
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 4: let's take another quick break.

726
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

727
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,600
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728
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,720
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729
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,320
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730
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,680
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731
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,279
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732
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,640
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733
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,919
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734
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,560
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735
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,000
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736
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,800
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737
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,839
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738
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739
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,520
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740
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741
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,160
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742
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,000
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Speaker 4: All right, Danio, So the muon is a thing. It's there.

777
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 4: It's super massive. It looks just like the electron. We

778
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 4: can feel it. It's going through us right now. Why

779
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 4: is it there? That's the question that maybe a lot

780
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 4: of people have. I mean, we don't need the muon

781
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 4: to make iPhones or pizzash, So why is it there?

782
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: Is that the standard upon which we judge things. Now,

783
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: if you don't need you for iPhones or pizzas, you

784
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: don't need to exist.

785
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 4: What else is there? Daniel?

786
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: That's my whole life basic. I just keeps No. It's

787
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: a good question. It's a question i'd like to know

788
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: the answer to. Why does the muon exist? The short

789
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: version of the answer is the title of a great

790
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: book I read last year. It's called we have No Idea?

791
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: Because we really do have no idea Why the muon

792
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: is there?

793
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 4: Doesn't seem to be used for anything, is what you're saying.

794
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: Like the trinos, I think, also are there, but we

795
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: don't know why why they're there? Right?

796
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, neutrinos and muons and many of the other particles

797
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: are not part of the atom. You know, build them.

798
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: You don't use them to build up the stuff that

799
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: we're familiar with, but they sort of can exist. They're

800
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 1: on nature's menu. You might ask the same question about

801
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: like some of the really heavy elements, like why is

802
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: plutonium a thing? Well, it turns out you can assemble

803
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: protons and neutrons and electrons in this way that's stable

804
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: and hangs out and it does this is funny thing.

805
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: We call it plutonium, and plutonium also decays, right, it

806
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: like breaks up. This one actually breaks up into other things.

807
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 4: But it's also kind of ephemeral, like it's only there

808
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 4: for so long before it becomes something else.

809
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: Precisely, and in the same way, we organize our list

810
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: of particles, and we wonder, like, why are these there?

811
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: What does this tell us about? Maybe one deeper layer

812
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: of reality, Like maybe the muons and the electrons are

813
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: made out of smaller particles, and these are just like

814
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: different ways to assemble those little internal bits, right, And

815
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: there's a few ways to assemble them, the way that

816
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: there's a few ways to assemble protons and neutrons to

817
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: get different elements. Maybe there's a few ways to assemble

818
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: these little tinyons. One way is to get an electron,

819
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: and other ways to get a muon, other ways to

820
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: get a tao, which is the third member of that family.

821
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: We just don't know. We know it's a clue though, right,

822
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: It's a tantalizing clue that there's something going on here.

823
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: We just don't know what it means.

824
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 4: It's a clue as to some sort of a hint

825
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 4: that there's some sort of rule for how electrons exist,

826
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 4: Like if you can make an electron that's heavier, maybe

827
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 4: that tells you something about what makes an electron an electron.

828
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: Precisely, and why there are three of them tells you

829
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: something about how that rule has to play out. Because

830
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: there's three electrons, the electron, the muon, and the towel.

831
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: There's three neutrinos. There's also three upquarks. There's three down quarks.

832
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: Like there's something really fundamental going on there we just

833
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: don't understand. But it seems like an obvious clue. You know.

834
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: It's like you're doing your jigsaw puzzle and then you

835
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: find this other weird piece. It turns out, oh, that

836
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: piece fits into a different jigsaw puzzle you didn't even

837
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: know about. And you know, it's as you start to

838
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: get this larger picture.

839
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 4: Right, or you find it like all of your pieces

840
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: have three sides to them, then you start thinking, you know,

841
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 4: whoever made this puzzle, if it was made by somebody

842
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 4: had a thing for threes.

843
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the universe has a thing for threes, and we

844
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: don't know why that is. The muon was our first

845
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: clue that particles have copies at all. And now it

846
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: turns out every particle has three copies, and so that's

847
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: a huge open question. Is a kind of question people

848
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: are going to look back in one hundred years and

849
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: be like, man, that was so obvious. Why couldn't they

850
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: figure it out? If I was a physicist in twenty nineteen,

851
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: I would totally figured it out. But it's not so

852
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: easy when you don't know the answer when you have

853
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: to come up with it. But it's important for people

854
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: to understand. You know, it's not part of the stuff

855
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: that we are made of, but it does answer this

856
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: larger questions like what is the sort of context of everything.

857
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: That's why we're trying to figure out like what are

858
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: all the particles? Because the more particles you put into

859
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: this table, the more clues we get as to what

860
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,959
Speaker 1: the rules are for making this table. And then maybe

861
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: we can peel back a layer and show how this

862
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: table is put together, right.

863
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 4: Or I guess maybe a question I would have is

864
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: how do you even know it's a separate thing? Like

865
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: why isn't it just called the heavy electron? Could it

866
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 4: just be an electron that just gets a lot of

867
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 4: mass added on to it somehow through energy or something.

868
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: That's a deep question and goes sort of to like

869
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: what do we call a particle. Part of the identity

870
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: of the particle is its mass. Like that's how we

871
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: identify what particle we're talking about. We measure the mass

872
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: and we say, well, if it has this mass, it's

873
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: an electron. It's sort of semantics, but it's it's what

874
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: we mean by an electron. We mean quantum dot in

875
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: space that has these properties, and one of those is

876
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: the mass. Oh I see, and there are only a few.

877
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: It's not like this. It's there's a knob. You can't

878
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: have halfway between an electron and muon this like the

879
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: electron mass, the muon mass, the tau mass. There's some

880
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: notches there.

881
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 4: Right, And so this was the first particle that kind

882
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 4: of we found outside of the ones that make up atoms.

883
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 4: Is that what you're saying that this was the first

884
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 4: one that was weird?

885
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely, it's weird and cute. I'm glad you're finally

886
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: putting positive attributes on the on the muon, you know,

887
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: trying to make it.

888
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 4: I said weird. I didn't say cue. I think somebody

889
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 4: has a particle fetish, and it's not the cartoonist.

890
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: Yes, well, maybe the particle physicist has a particle fetish.

891
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: I will totally own up to that. I love you particles.

892
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 4: I think we all love particles by necessity. We can't

893
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 4: live with that.

894
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: You just like particles when they make up pizza and iPhones,

895
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: though otherwise you don't care about them. You objectify particles

896
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: and cartoonists cartoonists.

897
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 4: Well, I think this particle is interesting in that it

898
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: also kind of hints, you know, the universe is full,

899
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 4: is full of these small little details that people can

900
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 4: explain right now and then maybe tell us a little

901
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 4: bit about that there are other mysteries yet to discover.

902
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, the story of how the muon

903
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: was discovered is also motivational. Right, People saw this weird

904
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: stuff in these pictures, and they could have just shrugged

905
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: it off. They could have been like, I don't know,

906
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: electrons are doing some weird that day, whatever, But instead

907
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: of cracked open this whole other mystery. And we're still

908
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: doing that. We still don't totally understand the muon. One

909
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: thing we'd like to understand is the muon's magnetic field.

910
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 4: Oh, it's odd. It has a weird magnetic field.

911
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, these particles, remember, have quantum spin, so they're doing

912
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: something we like spinning. That's giving them each a little

913
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: magnetic field because they have electric charge and spinning charges

914
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: get magnetic fields. But when we predict the magnetic field

915
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: of the muon from what we know about it, and

916
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: then we go when we measure the magnetic field, it's

917
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: a little bit different. It's not exactly right, and that

918
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: little difference we could say, Hmm, I don't know, shrug

919
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: it off. Maybe meuon is doing some weird that day,

920
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: or it could be a clue. It could be that

921
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: the muon is like interacting with new weird heavy particles

922
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: we haven't even seen before. It could be the first

923
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: evidence that there are more particles out there that we

924
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: haven't yet discovered. And also they help us unravel ancient mysteries,

925
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: like maybe you heard about how muons are used to

926
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: take a picture of the inside of pyramids.

927
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: What do you mean, like we can make a neon

928
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 4: viewer like like meon glasses.

929
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: No, we can use muons to like X ray a pyramid.

930
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: Because what happens is muons, the sizillian muons shooting from

931
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: the sky through everything. And if you take a muon

932
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: detector and you put it on the other side of something,

933
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: you can tell sort of the density of that thing,

934
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: because muons will penetrate air differently than they'll penetrate rock,

935
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: for example. And so you take a lot of muan

936
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: you shoot them through something, you can tell whether that

937
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: thing is fill, is hollow or not hollow. And so

938
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: they did this recently by looking at muons that went

939
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: through the Great Pyramids, because we're curious, like what's inside

940
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: the Great Pyramid, but you don't want to take it apart,

941
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: and so they use it basically to X ray the

942
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: Great Pyramids.

943
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 4: Like you put a detector underneath the pyramid or or what.

944
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you take the detectors as far underneath the pyramids

945
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: as you can in some of those rooms that do exist.

946
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: And you know, you can't build an X ray gun

947
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: the size of the pyramids. But the sky is a

948
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: muon gun, right, The sky is shooting muons at us

949
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 1: all the time.

950
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 4: The sky is a muon gun.

951
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, yeah, put on your tin hats, folks,

952
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: because the sky really is shooting particles.

953
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 4: That sounds like I need like a lead titanium hed

954
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 4: not a tin head.

955
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, maybe the Pharaohs had the right idea.

956
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why they have those really weird headdresses.

957
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 4: Hmmm. Well, that's what I was going to ask, is

958
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 4: how do you know what neons look like after they

959
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: go through Aliens? There are alies inside the pyramid you

960
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 4: wouldn't know.

961
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: Wow. I was so ready with an answer to that

962
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: question until you went to Aliens, and now I'm totally

963
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: at a lost.

964
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 4: That's why I'm here, Daniel, to ask the tough questions

965
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 4: that are on everyone's minds.

966
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: Joking aside, they did find something inside the pyramids. They

967
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: think they may have found a new empty room inside

968
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: the pyramids that they didn't know about before, because the

969
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: way the Muon's full of cows before the cows are

970
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: the Aliens actually to wrap it all up.

971
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 4: Then we're in deep trouble when their overlord's coming and

972
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 4: they're like, what are you guys doing.

973
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: And they say, welcome to our our leader, King Muon

974
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: the first, the first first of his name. No, they

975
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: found that inside the Great Pyramid there may be a

976
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: new hollow section that nobody knew about before, and it's

977
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: only thanks to muons that we were able to muon

978
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: x ray the Pyramids.

979
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 4: M a new on chamber they phone.

980
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: Thanks thanks to me on Yes. So it may not

981
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: be inside your iPhone and it may not be inside

982
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: your pizza, but it does help unravel ancient mysteries about

983
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: ancient civilizations.

984
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 4: All right, Well, with that, we will wrap it up

985
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: and we hope you enjoyed that little discussion about this

986
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 4: unknown but super massive and mysterious part of the universe.

987
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: Part of our family of cousins, particles, big, small, massive

988
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: or not. We love you all, at least I do.

989
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 4: Thanks for tuning in. See you next time.

990
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: Before you still have a question after listening to all

991
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

992
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

993
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or

994
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielandjorge dot com. Thanks for

995
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe

996
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,480
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997
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,760
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