Speaker 1: On the bed cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef in
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell cast. To Jamie Loftus,
Speaker 1: thanks for everything, Caitlin Darante, Wow, we really just mad
Speaker 1: lips to that one. Just a picture that with like
Speaker 1: me having written that in sharpie on a framed photograph
Speaker 1: of me where I'm looking extremely statuesque love and inciting
Speaker 1: incident that revolves around a framed photograph. It's good. There's
Speaker 1: actually I feel like for that it would be either
Speaker 1: like we would be sitting at the table and it
Speaker 1: would be either of It would be like an Alfred
Speaker 1: Bilina head shot, which, by the way, we're recording on
Speaker 1: his birthday. Happ Happy birthday Alfred to Mr Alfred Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it would be to Jamie and Caitlin, thanks
Speaker 1: for everything, Alfred Molina. That would be really, I mean,
Speaker 1: a dream come true. If we're already pitching, If we're
Speaker 1: already pitching ideas, I think that that's a strong place
Speaker 1: to start. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. By the way.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's it's me Caitlin Durante from the photograph.
Speaker 1: It's me Jamie Loftus. I'm referenced in the photograph, but
Speaker 1: the pictures of Caitlin. Yeah, exactly, Yeah. Uh. This is
Speaker 1: our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point
Speaker 1: to initiate a larger conversation about representation and such in film.
Speaker 1: Philm Yeah, it's two thou twenty one. We added an
Speaker 1: extra an extra syllable to uh. And the Bechdel Test,
Speaker 1: if you don't know, it was a media metric created
Speaker 1: by queer cartoonists Alison Bechdel's sometimes called the Buchtel Wallace Test.
Speaker 1: There's many different versions of this test. Here's our little
Speaker 1: spin on it. Uh. For our version of the Bechdel test,
Speaker 1: there must be two named characters of a marginalized gender
Speaker 1: who speak to each other about something other than a
Speaker 1: man for more than two lines of dialogue. And guess
Speaker 1: what The dialogue has to be plot wise meaningful somehow,
Speaker 1: not like the biggest thing that happens in the movie,
Speaker 1: but not something that is like, oh, they passed it
Speaker 1: by accident. I'm sick of handing it to movies that
Speaker 1: pass it by accident. God damn it. We won't take
Speaker 1: it anymore. Yeah, us incredibly brave. Um So today's movie is,
Speaker 1: if you didn't guess by my amazing introduction or by
Speaker 1: reading the title of the episode, is too Wung Food.
Speaker 1: Thanks for everything, Julie Newmar, long time request. I think
Speaker 1: this has been on our list for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: since the beginning, since the beginning, and I understand why,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot to talk about and to join
Speaker 1: us in that discussion. We've got an amazing comedian. She's
Speaker 1: the host of the podcast Sweet a Lady's Guide to
Speaker 1: Bro Culture. She's got live toward dates coming up in
Speaker 1: the fall because we're going to be able to do
Speaker 1: shows again. It's Gina Bloom. Hey, Hi, welcome. Thank you
Speaker 1: for having me on this on this most auspicious day
Speaker 1: of Molina. It is a very very special day. I
Speaker 1: love an Alfred Molina. So here we are. You've come
Speaker 1: to the right place on this very special day. Yes,
Speaker 1: what a treat. If he I don't I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know Alfred Malina. He was working in ninety five.
Speaker 1: He could have been in this movie, you know, not
Speaker 1: high profile enough. This is a very high profile movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: higher profile than I thought it was. Apparently this was
Speaker 1: there was like a little bit of like a like
Speaker 1: a war between leading actors trying to get on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like they really went for it. The people who were
Speaker 1: considered for the Vita bo M character is like every
Speaker 1: a list from the Wikipedia page. It's filed from John
Speaker 1: Cusack looking like his sister Joan, which is a huge upgrade.
Speaker 1: So no idea why he didn't keep that going. But
Speaker 1: where where you go, Billy Baldwin, there's a there's like
Speaker 1: everyone you would expect, and then some wild cards such
Speaker 1: as Willem Dafoe. What James Spader I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: John Turturo was like, okay, we got some character actors
Speaker 1: in the mix here where Tom Cruise was one of them.
Speaker 1: Tom cru Robert Downey jr. Um, Matthew Broderick, Mel Gibson Boo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel I feel that Rod probably could have brought it.
Speaker 1: Although I'm not a huge fan, but um I do.
Speaker 1: I do love the idea of an alternate universe. Willem
Speaker 1: Dafoe as as Vida, there is something special about that.
Speaker 1: It's wild. Yeah, every every working white man at this
Speaker 1: time auditioned for this part. And uh Swayzie one the day, Yes,
Speaker 1: s Wayses. I I love a Patrick Swayzy movie. And
Speaker 1: I guess the weird thing about this movie is that
Speaker 1: I've never seen it until until now, and I've seen almost,
Speaker 1: I think literally every other Patrick Swayzy movie. Wait, so
Speaker 1: this was your first time seeing the movie? Is my
Speaker 1: first time watching this? Yeah? And so just to give
Speaker 1: you some idea about, you know, my personal like story
Speaker 1: with this movie that well, I'm a translator. And so
Speaker 1: when you're growing up you know in the South, which
Speaker 1: in the part of Florida that I grew up in
Speaker 1: is the South, Like you didn't open this out de
Speaker 1: group in Florida Like then, No, No, Tampa, Florida is
Speaker 1: the self, trust me. And you know, I heard of
Speaker 1: the movie. I've seen the commercials. You know, you watch
Speaker 1: it on back in the day at the VHS tape
Speaker 1: and you'd see the commercials and all that, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: and in my head, I was like, I should watch this.
Speaker 1: I am a trans person. I didn't know, I didn't
Speaker 1: know what the words were, but like it was too
Speaker 1: it was too much for my head to take and
Speaker 1: like all my little miscreant friends were like that movie,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna watch that. They there's gay stuff going
Speaker 1: on in there, and like you know that little like
Speaker 1: Cloistered World. It just it just got by me. And
Speaker 1: like I'd always I wanted to watch it, but you know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't there in that time when I just couldn't
Speaker 1: bring myself to it. And then by the time I could,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of other stuff to watch. So here
Speaker 1: I am. Wow. I didn't know you hadn't seen it
Speaker 1: before wild Finally, Yes, that's why I picked it. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I've never seen this. Let's
Speaker 1: do this. What was your broad impression of it? I'm
Speaker 1: so curious, you know, Um, it was a little it
Speaker 1: was a little. Um, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's it's a fun It's a fun,
Speaker 1: silly light film, and you know what, that's fine. Like
Speaker 1: I like, I read on the Wikipedia page where like
Speaker 1: a lot of the straight mall reviewers are like, this
Speaker 1: is nothing special, and I'm like, well, I mean it
Speaker 1: is though. It's it's a queer movie. It's a very
Speaker 1: gay movie put out by you know, a studio. So
Speaker 1: that is by definition of something special. It was really
Speaker 1: it was kind of confusing in the movie didn't seem
Speaker 1: to know the difference between trans women and drag queens.
Speaker 1: This is true. Yeah, yeah, So so it took place
Speaker 1: in some weird world where drag queens just went around
Speaker 1: and dragged twenty four hours a day all the time,
Speaker 1: including when they're in bed. Would they have their wigs
Speaker 1: on and their makeup still on and they're like about
Speaker 1: ready to go to bed, Yeah, they're in a full face,
Speaker 1: they're they're tucked in, they got the tape, they got
Speaker 1: everything going, and it's like, no, there was a very
Speaker 1: fun um. I found a I'd not heard of this
Speaker 1: YouTube channel before, but it's a drag queen movie review channels.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is perfect. And the drag
Speaker 1: feed who reads the channel, James man Man's Field, brings
Speaker 1: that up right away. I'm just like, where what planet
Speaker 1: does this movie take place on? Some some weird drag
Speaker 1: plant And I had read, you know, I read a
Speaker 1: an article about you know, I think it's like the
Speaker 1: twenty anniversaries from a few years ago, and the screenwriter
Speaker 1: was like, who is out? He was a gay man
Speaker 1: he was like, I wanted to make a world where
Speaker 1: it was like it was like a fantasy world, and
Speaker 1: like it doesn't have to be realistic. It just wanted
Speaker 1: to be fabulous all the time. So I kept the
Speaker 1: drag queens and dragged all the time, which is a
Speaker 1: very white gay man perspective on on transness, which you know,
Speaker 1: I you know what it's I'm gonna I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to like just deal with the fact that things are
Speaker 1: gonna be a little weird for a movie made in
Speaker 1: a product of its time. The is really popping out
Speaker 1: at multiple plays, like there's a lot of ninety going
Speaker 1: on here. Caitlyn, what's your history with this movie. I
Speaker 1: saw it for the first time in college and I
Speaker 1: have not watched it since, and that was like fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago. So I've spent this whole time since then
Speaker 1: under the impression that this was a movie about drag queens, which,
Speaker 1: to be fair, is what the movie thinks the movie
Speaker 1: is about. And then I saw it again a year
Speaker 1: ago and I was like, wait a minute, that's not
Speaker 1: what this movie is about. This movie is about three
Speaker 1: trans women, as far as my interpretation goes, And uh so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've only seen it like one time before, like in
Speaker 1: my youth, and then again more recently trans women who
Speaker 1: don't know how to dress for comfort as as a
Speaker 1: as a as a woman that has been all across
Speaker 1: the country, I can tell you that is not how
Speaker 1: you dress for the South. That is not how you
Speaker 1: dressed for the weather ladies, or a road trip like
Speaker 1: or any of that. It's not. Yeah, they drive clear
Speaker 1: across the country. I was like, how, oh god, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't have an extent of history with it,
Speaker 1: but I do find this movie very fascinating and I'm
Speaker 1: excited to dive deeper into it. Jamie, what's your relationship
Speaker 1: with it? I had never seen this movie all the
Speaker 1: way through. I think I had seen bits of pieces
Speaker 1: of it over the years. I think I think this
Speaker 1: was I feel like I've given this answer for this
Speaker 1: show of a jillion times. But I believe there was
Speaker 1: a heavily edited version of this movie that used to
Speaker 1: air on T and T UH that that I had
Speaker 1: seen bits and pieces of. But this was basically my
Speaker 1: first time seeing it all the way through. And I mean,
Speaker 1: holy cow, there's so there's there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 1: I didn't. This is the smallest thing. But I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: Stockard Channing. It took me so long to figure out
Speaker 1: who Stoker Channing is. Kind of a chameleon. I feel
Speaker 1: like she looks so different. I recognized Lady Stockard immediately.
Speaker 1: I I am. I am a Stockard fan from way back.
Speaker 1: I ran into her in two thousand seven at a Cuckaroo,
Speaker 1: a restaurant in California. Got you know, r I P
Speaker 1: Kuckaroo but like they're in Burbank. I was standing behind
Speaker 1: Stockard Channing and I just wanted to gush, but I
Speaker 1: left her alone. She ordered her chicken and left. But like, yes,
Speaker 1: immediately like, oh that is Stalkard Channing. Nice, that works.
Speaker 1: That works for me. Wow. I love the just the
Speaker 1: image of STALKERD. Channing ordering her chicken and leaving. It's
Speaker 1: just so beautiful. It was it was it was my
Speaker 1: it was my Wong food l new mor moment. She's
Speaker 1: up there, she's up there with like Joey Foster as
Speaker 1: far as like my my white lady um mentors. They
Speaker 1: don't know they are, but they are beautiful. In especially
Speaker 1: in terms of like the production history of this movie.
Speaker 1: I was very much in the Dark. So it was
Speaker 1: it was really interesting to learn. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: just like watching the movie all the way through, there's
Speaker 1: so much and then learning about the production there's also
Speaker 1: so much. So I'm I'm stopped to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Should I recap it and we'll go from there? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 1: so totally this movie is very light and rompy, but
Speaker 1: I do want to do a quick trigger warning at
Speaker 1: the top because there is sexual assault that happens. Um. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we meet Vita bo M that's Patrick Swayze and
Speaker 1: Noxima Jackson that's Wesley Snipes. They are drag queens, according
Speaker 1: to the movie, competing in a Drag Queen of the
Speaker 1: Year pageant in New York City? Ever heard of it.
Speaker 1: Also there is Chee Chee Rodriguez played by John Leguizamo.
Speaker 1: RuPaul is there as miss Rachel Tensions. Okay, okay, let's
Speaker 1: discuss RuPaul. Let's just get through the RuPaul part because
Speaker 1: RuPaul enters in a Confederate flag dress first of all,
Speaker 1: and it was like, wow, RuPaul is literally just like
Speaker 1: stopping by before going back to like the fracking fields,
Speaker 1: Like what is just there was a lot and I
Speaker 1: know that there's I I read that there were a
Speaker 1: number of iconic I guess nineties era New York drag
Speaker 1: queens in that scene as well, And I don't have
Speaker 1: the backbown, but who boy RuPaul Yeah in the Rebels
Speaker 1: flag dress. I mean the figure was gho. It's nice
Speaker 1: to see rue as as a young but like that
Speaker 1: that dress that was not good. But it also it
Speaker 1: also its signified, like it alerted you to the fact
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of like racist humor in this
Speaker 1: movie and you're gonna be hearing a lot of it.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, Well it didn't even connect for
Speaker 1: me on my first rewatch of the movie. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until I was rewatching it a second time to prep
Speaker 1: for this episode that I remembered that RuPaul's drag name
Speaker 1: in this movie is Rachel Tensions. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's why the Confederate flag dress. But that that beat
Speaker 1: isn't really stepped on, so you just it's just RuPaul
Speaker 1: in a Confederate flag dress and you're like huh, and like,
Speaker 1: knowing that it was all written by a white guy,
Speaker 1: You're just like, what the no, you know, just a
Speaker 1: reminder that RuPaul Fracks. It's just never a fact that
Speaker 1: gets up for me. RuPaul Fracks in a in a
Speaker 1: a Confederate flag dress cannon. This is only the only
Speaker 1: appropriate outfit to fracken. Oh yikes. Um, So Rachel Tensions
Speaker 1: is there to announce the winner of this competition, the
Speaker 1: prize for which is a trip to Hollywood, California, and
Speaker 1: it's a tie between Noxima Jackson and Vita Boem and Chee.
Speaker 1: Chee is devastated that she didn't win, so Vita takes
Speaker 1: pity on her and invites her along on the trip
Speaker 1: to Hollywood. And while they're at a bar trying to
Speaker 1: figure out the logistics of how this trip with the
Speaker 1: three of them will work, in which we get a
Speaker 1: cameo from Robin Williams, who I guess had a big
Speaker 1: hand in making this movie. Happen to think that was interesting? Yeah,
Speaker 1: always happy to see him. Yeah, and like he he
Speaker 1: had wanted to play the lead, but he felt that
Speaker 1: it was he was physically inappropriate, which is the correct response.
Speaker 1: Robin and then got Steven Spielberg's involvement and getting the
Speaker 1: movie made, so it's surprisingly star studded this production. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't, I did not realize that this was an
Speaker 1: Amblin joint when when I was going into it and
Speaker 1: reading there, reading the history of like how that happened,
Speaker 1: there was like a great piece in the Advocate that
Speaker 1: was kind of this oral history of the at the time,
Speaker 1: the one out producer at Amblin really pushed for this movie,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's it's an interesting um it's an
Speaker 1: interesting story. I just didn't realize I was like Steven Spielberg, alright, sure,
Speaker 1: he really was absolutely everywhere in the nineties he owned absolutely. Um. So,
Speaker 1: while they're at this restaurant, Vita notices a framed picture
Speaker 1: behind her and written on it says to Wong Foo,
Speaker 1: thanks for everything, Julie newmar So Vita steals the photo
Speaker 1: to take with them on the trip as sort of
Speaker 1: like a good luck charm. So they leave for their
Speaker 1: trip in an old Cadillac convertible. They stop in Vita's hometown.
Speaker 1: We find out that she is estranged from her rich
Speaker 1: family and they also live in a castle. They live
Speaker 1: in a castle, and absolute castle, yes, somewhere in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Then they talk about what it means to be a
Speaker 1: drag queen and they say that cheat Chee isn't a
Speaker 1: full fledged queen yet, She's still just a princess, and
Speaker 1: that there are these like four undefined steps that she
Speaker 1: has to take before she's a full drag queen. Complicating that, though,
Speaker 1: is before they refer to cheat as a princess, they
Speaker 1: refer to her as a boy in address, which is
Speaker 1: complicated because on the one hand, Checho is very obviously
Speaker 1: a trans woman, but on the other hand, the film
Speaker 1: doesn't acknowledge that, so it's it's a it's a muddled message,
Speaker 1: to say the least. There's a monolog from NOx Ema
Speaker 1: in this scene that we will unpack in a in
Speaker 1: a little bit because oh wow, is it outdated? I
Speaker 1: think I know the one you talked about. I had
Speaker 1: to watch it three or four times. It'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is it. As a translating that's experienced, I can
Speaker 1: tell you that's brought us about what was like? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna yeah, I'm just gonna have to deal
Speaker 1: with it. You have to deal with the past. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: So then a little while later they pull off for
Speaker 1: the night and they have to be careful about where
Speaker 1: they stay because they know about this very real possibility
Speaker 1: that people will be cruel and intolerant toward them. Um.
Speaker 1: But then they go to this they find this hotel
Speaker 1: where the concierge mistakes them for members of a women's
Speaker 1: basketball team, so they're like whoo, and then they set
Speaker 1: off again. They drive for a while, they get lost,
Speaker 1: it's dark, it's late there in the middle of nowhere,
Speaker 1: and then they get pulled over and Sheriff Dullard has
Speaker 1: stopped them and asks Vita to step out of the vehicle.
Speaker 1: He then assaults her. She fights back and knocks him out,
Speaker 1: and they think he might be dead. So then they
Speaker 1: really wish he had just died. I have been a
Speaker 1: treat that would that would have been a treat the
Speaker 1: film would have been without conflict. But that's okay. Didn't
Speaker 1: need the s guy at all. Could have found another way, right.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I was so shocked when he
Speaker 1: turned out to not be dead, but I was. It
Speaker 1: was deeply disappointing. Yeah. I also, I'm like, I love
Speaker 1: that they just leave him for dead, just frantically flee
Speaker 1: the scene. They make a quick stop, but then the
Speaker 1: car won't start back up again, so they hit your
Speaker 1: ride and end up getting stuck in this small town
Speaker 1: for a few days while their car gets Next, a
Speaker 1: local woman, Carol Anne that's Stockard Channing, offers them a
Speaker 1: room in her house and they have to just hang
Speaker 1: out for these few days while they're like part comes
Speaker 1: in to fix their car. So Vita Naxi and Chee
Speaker 1: Chee make the best of it. They befriend the local ladies,
Speaker 1: give them makeovers, help them plan this upcoming Strawberry social Um.
Speaker 1: Some of the local men are harassing everybody. So, but
Speaker 1: the movie is like, but it's a but it's a joke. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the random get up Tufts was undeveloped, to say the least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was a random there's a random gang of small
Speaker 1: town tufts that just annoy people for some reason and
Speaker 1: also seem like they are about to assault Chee Chee
Speaker 1: in one scene and then uh, don't wear Vita Knoxi
Speaker 1: teach them some manners. Yeah, they get They get scolded
Speaker 1: one time and straightened out and then they learned their lesson. Right,
Speaker 1: There's a lot of that going on in this town,
Speaker 1: a lot of being reprimanded one time, a lot of
Speaker 1: lessons learned here, including so Caroline has an abusive husband
Speaker 1: who they run out of town. Also, Chee Chee has
Speaker 1: been flirting with this man, Bobby ray Um, but a
Speaker 1: young woman named Bobby Lee is in love with him.
Speaker 1: So Vita Knoxi and Chee Chee help Bobby Lee pair
Speaker 1: off with Bobby ray isn't Bobby ray one of the
Speaker 1: Days Didn't Confused guys? Am? I like, yeah, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure he has Okay, okay, because I was like, he's familiar. Well,
Speaker 1: they're twin brothers, so he's either the Days and Confused
Speaker 1: guy or he's that guy's brother, but they're twins. But yes,
Speaker 1: that is true. You know what, I don't even want
Speaker 1: to solve the mystery. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: live with the mystery. Let um. So meanwhile, Sheriff Dullard,
Speaker 1: who did not die, is going around looking for Vita
Speaker 1: and her friends, and then Carol Ane's abusive husband, Virgil,
Speaker 1: runs into Sheriff Dullard, who presumably tells Dullard about Vita, Naxi,
Speaker 1: and Chee Chee because then Dullard shows up to the
Speaker 1: town demanding to know where they are. But then the
Speaker 1: whole town like shows up to protect them and sends
Speaker 1: Dullard on his way, kind of like Spartacus style, the
Speaker 1: way it happened, Yes, very much so, yes, very Spartacus ending.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. Vita, Naxi, and Cheechee are very touched that
Speaker 1: the town stood up for them. Um. Everyone celebrates at
Speaker 1: the Strawberry Social. Carol Anne wishes them a farewell, Vita
Speaker 1: gives her the photo of Julie Newmar and then they leave.
Speaker 1: And then the movie ends with the Drag Queen of
Speaker 1: America contest in Hollywood, California. Ever heard of it? And
Speaker 1: Julie Newmar crowns the winner, who is Chee Chee. And
Speaker 1: that is the movie. So let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back.
Speaker 1: Where do we want to start here? Where where should
Speaker 1: we begin? Well, as we touched on already, this movie
Speaker 1: does not really understand. No, it doesn't purposely purposely does
Speaker 1: not understand because I mean, it took place. It's not
Speaker 1: n like they knew. They just chose to do it
Speaker 1: this way, like they knew that drag queens are in
Speaker 1: transmen are not the same thing. But they they're like, no,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it this way. Yeah, I have to
Speaker 1: imagine it was a an attempt to maybe appeal to
Speaker 1: a more widespread audience, to leave it intentionally vague. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think it's yeah that I think it's just the
Speaker 1: visuals because you know, they're they're going for this idea,
Speaker 1: you know, with the stunt casting, that we're going to
Speaker 1: cast these like alpha male action guys as drag queens,
Speaker 1: so we can never not show them and drag. Otherwise
Speaker 1: they're just gay men and that's not that's not hiconcept
Speaker 1: enough for right. Like, they like they really wanted to
Speaker 1: like just drive home the visuals so they could, you know,
Speaker 1: pump the you know, the trailer full of like funny music.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that's what they were thinking. And that's
Speaker 1: just that's just the reality of the film. The trailer
Speaker 1: is so bizarre. I don't know if either of you
Speaker 1: have seen it, but it's Westley Snipes and then you
Speaker 1: like see steve footage of him in action movies. He's
Speaker 1: done in other movies. Pas it goes it shows Wesley
Speaker 1: Snipe clips that says he's been a killer and a commando,
Speaker 1: and then it cuts to like Patrick Swayzy. Eclipses says
Speaker 1: he's been a heartthrob and a hero. They don't introduce
Speaker 1: John like Wisamo at all, and then they just cut
Speaker 1: to the and an actual trailer starts. It's very bizarre,
Speaker 1: and then it's something like in their most physically challenging
Speaker 1: role yet, and then it cuts to them in drag
Speaker 1: and you're like, Okay, if you insist, we're gonna say
Speaker 1: that five thousand times in this episode. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: the title of the episode. And it was just deal
Speaker 1: with it. Um, So yeah. Another distinction that we should
Speaker 1: make is that while drag queens have traditionally been thought
Speaker 1: of as siss gay and who do drag, of course,
Speaker 1: there are lots of trans and non binary and gender
Speaker 1: queer people who are also drag performers. The two are
Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive. But again, this movie, the mission of
Speaker 1: the film was that these were drag performers, not trans women,
Speaker 1: although you watch the movie like, these are trans women,
Speaker 1: and then if you read John Legisanlo's interviews, he's like, no,
Speaker 1: I played this as a trans woman, Like this is
Speaker 1: this is not a drag queen that I'm that I'm
Speaker 1: performing as. Right, So he got it, he got it,
Speaker 1: and he said like, if this movie were to be
Speaker 1: remade today, they should cast a Latina trans woman to
Speaker 1: play that part. So yes, we in our one lens
Speaker 1: understand this. We're smart. Just your episode Lee reminder, we
Speaker 1: are smart, You're smart, and wean in in the years.
Speaker 1: I honestly, I mean, I was surprised because there was
Speaker 1: so much or not so much, but there's a fair
Speaker 1: amount written about this movie at its twenty year anniversary,
Speaker 1: and I was surprised to not see like the writer
Speaker 1: of the movie pressed a little more on this. I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to find any examples of Also, Douglas carter
Speaker 1: Bean very fancy name. Don't know anything about his background,
Speaker 1: but Douglas carter Bean is a funny name, and he
Speaker 1: it's it says on his Wikipedia page. He often writes
Speaker 1: works with sophisticated drawing room humor. So he's he's just
Speaker 1: a fancy person, fancy, He's a fancy lad, Douglas carta Bean.
Speaker 1: But no, no one seems to have ever really pressed
Speaker 1: him on on on this, and it's his only film project.
Speaker 1: He's otherwise worked almost exclusively on stage. I just thought
Speaker 1: it was like kind of I was honestly just expecting
Speaker 1: him to have commented on it at some point, and
Speaker 1: he never has. Yeah, I have a quote from him
Speaker 1: where he says, quote, my inspiration for the script came
Speaker 1: from watching the religious right videotape The Gay Agenda. There's
Speaker 1: a scene where they show drag queens going through a
Speaker 1: town and the narrator is warning viewers that these people
Speaker 1: will take over your town. And I thought, well, that
Speaker 1: would be fun unquote. Yeah, you know, and I read
Speaker 1: that too, and that that is a that is a
Speaker 1: funny funny. It's a funny inspiration. Yeah, I don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong. Yes, we're we we have we have well
Speaker 1: established that this film has an incorrect depiction of trans women.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it is kind of funny
Speaker 1: that the movie simply is that is this drag queens
Speaker 1: taking over a town, and that that itself is a
Speaker 1: funny idea, which it generally accomplishes. In my opinion. I
Speaker 1: have to kind of turn off my my my censors
Speaker 1: is a little bit, but like I think, just going
Speaker 1: with the flow. Sometimes I get on the movie's wiflength
Speaker 1: because of that. I mean, to enjoy a movie, we
Speaker 1: often must turn off those lenses, those goggles, take off
Speaker 1: the Bechtel, cast goggles, et cetera. Because there are elements
Speaker 1: to this movie that are like, really just like road
Speaker 1: movie romp. Stuff is going on. There's it is like,
Speaker 1: at its heart, a road trip movie. And there's a
Speaker 1: party at the end. And I know, Caitlin, you're generally
Speaker 1: anti prom wedding party at the end, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's a party at the end and everyone throwing red.
Speaker 1: You know what, I didn't mind it. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't mind a general party at the end of a movie.
Speaker 1: I just specifically don't like proms and weddings because of
Speaker 1: the connotations they generally carry. But I liked the strawberry Festival.
Speaker 1: The strawberry Festival, You're like, yeah, sure, this is probably
Speaker 1: the only thing that happens at this place all year.
Speaker 1: What's funny is that where I grew up in Florida
Speaker 1: had a strawberry festival and it was really it was yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I grew up near Plant City, Florida, which is where
Speaker 1: the Strawberry Festival in Florida is, and it was never this.
Speaker 1: It was never this fabulous. Never. They never coordinated colors,
Speaker 1: they never did any of that. This was way better Starberry.
Speaker 1: It was never a red and wild theme. Never, never
Speaker 1: a theme period. It was just Carney's. That was it.
Speaker 1: That was the theme. Every every town wide party should
Speaker 1: start with running the sheriff out of town. I think
Speaker 1: that that really sets the vibe in a fun way. Yes,
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, this movie it was fun. Like despite
Speaker 1: the many, many, many, many problems it was it was
Speaker 1: good natured and like being good natured scores a decent
Speaker 1: amount of points with me. Because a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of trans movies, and I'm gonna call us a
Speaker 1: trans movie, it doesn't call itself that. Sure, A lot
Speaker 1: of trans movies don't don't have joy. Like a lot
Speaker 1: of movies about trans characters. The miserable people are like
Speaker 1: the women, the men, whatever, they generally are just miserable.
Speaker 1: I was up for a role. I turned it down
Speaker 1: because it was basically a trans woman, a drag performer
Speaker 1: trans woman. It was kind of the same thing. That
Speaker 1: writer didn't really understand the difference, and it was basically
Speaker 1: this this person just gets beat up for twenty minutes
Speaker 1: and then just gives up on their dreams. And it's
Speaker 1: like and they're like, I could see you in this role.
Speaker 1: I get you can like I hope not because a
Speaker 1: happy person Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I mean, like you
Speaker 1: mentioned Gina, this coming out from like, this movie came
Speaker 1: out as a like a major studio released, It had
Speaker 1: huge bankable stars in it. It opened as the number
Speaker 1: one movie for like the first two weeks of its
Speaker 1: of it being released, so a lot of people saw it.
Speaker 1: And also, let's not forget that this movie came out
Speaker 1: like at the height of the AIDS epidemic in the US.
Speaker 1: So for this to be such a major movie that
Speaker 1: is just such a like fun can't be romp, not
Speaker 1: without its problems, but a romp nonetheless. And that it wasn't,
Speaker 1: you know, tragedy porn the way that so many trans
Speaker 1: movies are. That's something. I was so inspired by this
Speaker 1: movie that I ordered Susan Sontag's on Camp essay off
Speaker 1: of Amazon, but I was not inspired enough to actually
Speaker 1: read it. So so I almost movie almost so close.
Speaker 1: Let see that. I feel like that it is like
Speaker 1: it's the middle of the road, you know, like I'll
Speaker 1: spend four dollars, but will I follow it through? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'll get to that. I'll get to that
Speaker 1: Sontag essay someday, but it didn't inspire me to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, reacquaint myself with the theory of camp. You know.
Speaker 1: It's it's something that i've I've you know, hey, i've
Speaker 1: been I live it, I can't be live. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I I felt inspired enough do that. So it's it's fun.
Speaker 1: And now Susan will just be waiting for you. Yes,
Speaker 1: well we'll do. Yeah. The context of this movie is
Speaker 1: very I get. We're just gonna keep saying like the
Speaker 1: context of this movie is so specific that like understanding
Speaker 1: the exact circumstances this movie was produced and released in
Speaker 1: two was at least it didn't solve the problems, but
Speaker 1: at least kind of contextualized them a little bit. Where
Speaker 1: like you were both just saying that the fact that
Speaker 1: this is a movie that is fundamentally like created on joy.
Speaker 1: It's fun. It's funny, it's a comedy at its core
Speaker 1: at the height of the AIDS epidemic, like was was
Speaker 1: it seems and that seemed like it was a big
Speaker 1: motivating factor in making the movie. Where there's this piece
Speaker 1: on the Advocate by Mitch Kohen, who used to work
Speaker 1: at Amblin and then later became a teacher. His life
Speaker 1: story is interesting. Well we'll link it in the episode,
Speaker 1: but essentially he was the only out employee at Amblen
Speaker 1: for a long time and really advocated for this movie
Speaker 1: to get made, particularly because of wanting to see a
Speaker 1: movie that had just had joy in it at all.
Speaker 1: And another thing I thought was kind of interesting about it.
Speaker 1: So the director of this movie, I did not. I
Speaker 1: have not heard of this person before, but apparently she
Speaker 1: also directed a Bridget Jones Beben kid drawn? Am I
Speaker 1: saying that right? I think so? Yeah, been kid drawn?
Speaker 1: I think that's right, with all due respect to be
Speaker 1: been kid drawn if I'm getting get wrong. Um, But
Speaker 1: what I thought was interesting was there was like this
Speaker 1: movie seemed very easy to cast, where it sounds like
Speaker 1: Wesley Snipes and John Leguizamo were in right away. The
Speaker 1: part was written specifically for Cheechi Rodriguez was written specifically
Speaker 1: for John Leguizamo, which again it's like I wish that
Speaker 1: John Leguizambo and Douglas carter Bean could have like talked
Speaker 1: about it. It gives if John Leguizama was playing a
Speaker 1: trans woman and Douglas carter Bean was like, I'm Douglas
Speaker 1: carter Bean, like he's Douglas carter Bean over here. Whatever.
Speaker 1: But I thought it was interesting that it was, I guess,
Speaker 1: very hard to find a director for this movie, much
Speaker 1: harder than it was to uh find stars, where they
Speaker 1: asked a number of male directors, and according to Mitch Cone,
Speaker 1: every male director passed because of course they went to
Speaker 1: male directors and they're like, get the broad I guess,
Speaker 1: get the Bridget Jones girl. Okay, here we go. Bring
Speaker 1: in Biban. Uh. You know, it's like for what, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, Biben Biban did it? Uh? And I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I just didn't know who had directed this movie at all.
Speaker 1: And then also the piece references a lot of how
Speaker 1: and I wasn't exactly clear on whether this was true
Speaker 1: or not, but when the movie came out, there were
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of, you know, light accusations that
Speaker 1: it was ripping off Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, even
Speaker 1: though it sounds like they may have been in production
Speaker 1: at the same time and Priscilla just came out first,
Speaker 1: but they were definitely compared a lot. They came out
Speaker 1: really close, and I think it was just one of
Speaker 1: those like convergent things. But Priscilla wea does It was
Speaker 1: a huge hit that got Oscar nominations and got critical
Speaker 1: respect that to Wang Food didn't get. So I think
Speaker 1: that was just an unfortunate bit of timing on their part.
Speaker 1: But it happens. Yeah, we should cover Priscilla on the
Speaker 1: show at some point. Absolutely should another except I believe
Speaker 1: in a while since I've seen Priscilla, but I believe
Speaker 1: that is an actual trans woman played by Tarrance stamp
Speaker 1: In in that one. So there is an example of
Speaker 1: a trans woman in the drag community way back in.
Speaker 1: So they did, they did understand that could happen back then.
Speaker 1: They just chose to ignore it, right because the character
Speaker 1: in within like in the movie, is identified as a
Speaker 1: trans woman, yes, and as living as a trans woman,
Speaker 1: and she wears like regular lady clothes when she's not performing,
Speaker 1: she just dresses normally. She doesn't she doesn't pull a
Speaker 1: pull a Vita and does you know, go around in
Speaker 1: full face and and boostier to the gas station. The
Speaker 1: gas station would appreciate that, But that's that's a lot
Speaker 1: of work. It's a gas station, a lot of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was definitely in production by the time Priscilla, Queen
Speaker 1: of the Desert came out, so it wasn't like a
Speaker 1: rip off in that way. But yeah, most people were like,
Speaker 1: this is just like an American rip off of person
Speaker 1: cashion in also choreography by Kenny Ortega. Wait really Yeah?
Speaker 1: But then it made me think, like, what even scenes
Speaker 1: or choreographed besides, like the drag shows. So I mean
Speaker 1: maybe he just choreographed those drag shows at the very
Speaker 1: beginning end end. I wonder. Yeah, I think that would
Speaker 1: be it. That's all the choreography that I can call.
Speaker 1: I love a Kenny moment. Wow, shout out Kenny Artega again,
Speaker 1: the King of the King of Disney Channel Original movies himself. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we will be
Speaker 1: right back. We're back. Um, do we want to unpack
Speaker 1: that Noxima monologue? Yeah, I think it's I think it's relevant.
Speaker 1: I think it's relevant to to understand the time. Now
Speaker 1: we can avoid certain terms that they were using. Just
Speaker 1: know that they use them. They use them outdated terms. Yea.
Speaker 1: And most importantly so NOx Ema does this whole are
Speaker 1: talking about the one where NOx Ema is telling you
Speaker 1: the different types of gay man you could be. But yeah,
Speaker 1: just yeah, basically, yeah, so here's what Noxima says, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll refrain from some of the very outdated language that
Speaker 1: gets used. But according to Noxima, quote, when a straight
Speaker 1: man puts on a dress and gets his sexual kicks,
Speaker 1: he's a and then insert outdated word. Um, when a
Speaker 1: man is a woman trapped in a man's body and
Speaker 1: has a little operation, he is a insert similar but different.
Speaker 1: A lot of problems with that statement, yes, to unpack
Speaker 1: there beyond just the technical terminology. And then when a
Speaker 1: gay man has too much fashion sense for one gender,
Speaker 1: he is a drag queen. So these are the three
Speaker 1: ways in which, according to this character, someone might wear
Speaker 1: a dress that hasn't historically than a person that would
Speaker 1: wear a dress absolutely right, right, that's that's what they're saying.
Speaker 1: That's what Noxema is saying. And yeah it's and MAGAZINEA
Speaker 1: is like explaining this too, chee chee for reasons, right,
Speaker 1: just for conflict reasons that they just they're they're just
Speaker 1: designed not to get along, like that's just that's basically
Speaker 1: you're like sid Field, you know, gotta have characters and conflict,
Speaker 1: Gotta what Hollywood movies are all about characters arguing with
Speaker 1: each other, so they just invented arguments for them to
Speaker 1: have and yeah, it you know what though that for
Speaker 1: that that is even a little outdated um to say
Speaker 1: the least, but like, but like, that's that's what people
Speaker 1: would talk like, That's what people who didn't understand would
Speaker 1: talk like. And I remember as a closeted trans woman
Speaker 1: on the internet back then, trans girl, I guess you
Speaker 1: underage whatever, But like back then, you didn't know about pronouns.
Speaker 1: You didn't know that, you know, throwing the words sex
Speaker 1: into into the subjunctive of of a term gives it
Speaker 1: context that you don't really want to put in there.
Speaker 1: And that's what people thought, like and probably to them,
Speaker 1: and back in the day, they were just high fiving
Speaker 1: each other, like look at how smart we are, like
Speaker 1: we we got this covered, like this, we're educating the
Speaker 1: audience here. And that's the kind of thing that I
Speaker 1: said at the top of the episode, I avoided watching
Speaker 1: this movie because I didn't want to come to terms
Speaker 1: with certain things about myself because it was too scary
Speaker 1: at the time. And that's exactly what that's speaking to,
Speaker 1: because like that's what I thought. It is exactly what
Speaker 1: I thought at that time, that you're either one of
Speaker 1: these three things and there's no other place for you,
Speaker 1: and none of those sounded like me. None of those
Speaker 1: sound like very attractive options, except for being a drag queen,
Speaker 1: which is a fun fucking job that I actually tried
Speaker 1: and failed. That so because I just I do not
Speaker 1: have too much fashion since I am barely enough, so
Speaker 1: you know, doubt stuff. That's why I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about this, because that was like, I didn't get triggered
Speaker 1: by that scene. I'm gonna all have been on this
Speaker 1: planet for a long time. Lots of other things have
Speaker 1: happened to me, but that reminded me of how I
Speaker 1: thought back then, and how a lot of trans women
Speaker 1: thought back then that I would talk to on the internet.
Speaker 1: Were they you know, there was no good place for us.
Speaker 1: We were either we were a gay men or we
Speaker 1: were a straight men that we're just getting their kicks off,
Speaker 1: and like there was there was no place for us
Speaker 1: unless we had surgery, but then even then you're still
Speaker 1: a he according to this monologue, right, yeah, yeah, this
Speaker 1: monol like miss genders trans women multiple times in one sentence,
Speaker 1: multiple times, Yes, absolutely and operates, like you said, on
Speaker 1: the assumption that if you're trans, you have to have surgery,
Speaker 1: you have to have surgery. Absolutely, yeah, which we know
Speaker 1: better than that now, but kind of we kind of don't.
Speaker 1: In two thousand twenty one, if I were to get
Speaker 1: arrested as a as a woman who has not had
Speaker 1: gender confirmation surgery, has not had bottom surgery, I would
Speaker 1: go to male prison and I would die absolutely within minutes.
Speaker 1: And that that's the reality. It's not my reality, but
Speaker 1: that's the reality that a lot of trans women face.
Speaker 1: They go into male jails, they get they get shoved
Speaker 1: into these unsafe spaces because of their surgical status. Right,
Speaker 1: And so you know, you you you're still to this day,
Speaker 1: you're still being reinforced that you have to have surgery.
Speaker 1: And maybe I will, maybe I won't. It's not a
Speaker 1: huge priority for me right now. I'm having a good
Speaker 1: life right now. But maybe I'll decide that's what I
Speaker 1: want later. But I don't want to feel unsafe. I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want
Speaker 1: to have, you know, some cop in a mall in
Speaker 1: Tennessee give me a genital check because of whatever. Stupid law,
Speaker 1: they come up without there because of that. So that
Speaker 1: stuff is still happening, and that's that's the reality we
Speaker 1: live in. That's and that even then, even the community,
Speaker 1: even our community, had that position, and a lot of
Speaker 1: us still do. I still to this day, and I
Speaker 1: don't mean to like take over the show here, but
Speaker 1: I still to this day, we'll run into two gay
Speaker 1: men that will conflate my sexuality with my gender, with
Speaker 1: my presentation. I have a lot of jokes about about gender.
Speaker 1: I was at a stand up show at a gay
Speaker 1: bar and I was telling him this joke I tell
Speaker 1: about straight men. Straight men are bad sex, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff that we all know. Hey, Like, this
Speaker 1: gay guy starts heckling me. He's like, but if you're
Speaker 1: having sex with him, he's not straight. Yeah he is,
Speaker 1: I guarantee you. I know from first lill experience man
Speaker 1: as straight as a fucking board. Maybe some of them aren't.
Speaker 1: So I've had sex with probably men to fucking fun,
Speaker 1: but you know, there has nothing to do with that.
Speaker 1: So that's still that that attitude is still out there.
Speaker 1: This guy should have known he was a little older,
Speaker 1: but he was not so old that he didn't. He
Speaker 1: couldn't have been inundated with this information over the past
Speaker 1: us however many years. So this this scene is is
Speaker 1: I think key to the critique of the film. It's
Speaker 1: a bad scene. It's cringe e absolutely, and it's something
Speaker 1: I don't I didn't really enjoy, but like as a
Speaker 1: as a document of this film and the enpirement that
Speaker 1: it came from, it's absolutely key that we discuss it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's again, it's it's like something that I wish that
Speaker 1: the writer has been pressed on at at any time,
Speaker 1: because you're totally right, Gina, where it's you know, Douglas
Speaker 1: Carter Bean chose to write this story. So if he's
Speaker 1: choosing to write this story, that you have to do
Speaker 1: your due diligence and talk to people. And you know,
Speaker 1: he also had to have been well aware that he
Speaker 1: was one of the only writers who was writing a
Speaker 1: mainstream story like this, and how like spreading misinformation and
Speaker 1: half asking anything like there is a higher risk to
Speaker 1: doing that because no one else is talking about it
Speaker 1: to a mainstream audience. It's just it's really frustrating and
Speaker 1: and very of its time. But just like, uh, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's so frustrating that like this scene, I don't
Speaker 1: even know what to say, Like they're the mental gymnastics
Speaker 1: you have to do to even get through that. Um,
Speaker 1: it was hard to watch, absolutely, Yeah, very hard to watch.
Speaker 1: I I audibly gasped at it, and I don't normally
Speaker 1: do that, but I did there, and it did take
Speaker 1: me out of the film for a minute. Yes, I
Speaker 1: I agree, should we have pressed the writers and I
Speaker 1: want to press the writer absolutely, But as is typically
Speaker 1: the case, those marginalized people who are perhaps the least
Speaker 1: marginalized he's still in mail, often are the ones that
Speaker 1: are the first you know on the scene and have
Speaker 1: have an imperfect perspective on it. So there you go. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then for that monologue to end with the nusomic character.
Speaker 1: And also I think I read a lot of articles
Speaker 1: about this movie that interpret that monologue in the way
Speaker 1: that no Sima says, like when a gay man has
Speaker 1: too much fashion sense for one gender, he's a drag queen.
Speaker 1: And then that's I read a lot of articles that
Speaker 1: that people interpreted. Okay, So like Noxima is saying, that's
Speaker 1: the category that we fall into, even though I'm like,
Speaker 1: did you watch the rest of the movie. But um,
Speaker 1: and then the way the sentence or like the way
Speaker 1: the monologue ends is Noxima saying to Chee Chee, like,
Speaker 1: you're not a drag queen, You're a boy in a dress.
Speaker 1: And when you look at it through the context of
Speaker 1: these are trans women. And then for another character, who
Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes is a trans woman, to
Speaker 1: say that to another trans woman, yeah, I mean, as
Speaker 1: as a trans woman, I can tell you trans women
Speaker 1: are awful to each other sometimes, so that happens not
Speaker 1: always were usually quite eyes to each other, but sometimes
Speaker 1: we're terrible. The thing that I took away from that
Speaker 1: scene other than what we've been talking about, is that
Speaker 1: there's really not any motivation for it, and so you
Speaker 1: kind of have to fall back on what the movie
Speaker 1: gives you, like what is exactly Noxinous problem with Chee Chee,
Speaker 1: And like they don't give you a whole lot other
Speaker 1: than the fact that she's young and that there's this
Speaker 1: weird racial undercurrent things that she says, so like you
Speaker 1: just get the kind of the impression. But Doxine was
Speaker 1: kind of a racist, which is which is the motivation
Speaker 1: behind that scene for her to talk like that. It's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's not good. It's it's like, I just don't
Speaker 1: trust that Douglas Carter Bean really knows what he's talking
Speaker 1: about on a lot of levels here, And yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think he does. I think you're correct on that, Jamie,
Speaker 1: I think he does. I think that I think this
Speaker 1: is what happened. This is what Douglas Carter being in
Speaker 1: my estimation, that is what he did. He talked to
Speaker 1: some drag queens and he probably listened in on some
Speaker 1: drag queens talking to each other. And you know, you're
Speaker 1: both comedians. You know how people get when they're around
Speaker 1: each other, and like sometimes specially back then, you can
Speaker 1: get kind of rough and tumble. And I have no
Speaker 1: doubt that drag queens of different races were throwing racist
Speaker 1: jokes at each other. But it came across kind of
Speaker 1: ugly in this movie like it was it wasn't. It
Speaker 1: just felt racist. It just felt like they're being racist.
Speaker 1: And that's probably what he's missing. He's missing, like there's
Speaker 1: supposedly some context here, and just don't put it in
Speaker 1: there if you just don't do it, you know, don't
Speaker 1: if you can't do it right. And there it really
Speaker 1: is no right way to do it. I mean, some
Speaker 1: some things you just don't need to put an n
Speaker 1: a PG thirteen comedy, a bunch of a bunch of
Speaker 1: racist jokes probably that probably qualifies as that, so leave them.
Speaker 1: It just felt it just felt like Noxi was being
Speaker 1: racist towards Cheat Cheet just because she was beings because
Speaker 1: she was racist, because she kept saying racist stuff to
Speaker 1: her throughout the entire movie up until that point. It
Speaker 1: just made the character unlikable. Yeah, for that bit. Now,
Speaker 1: Wesley is doing a great job being a likable person,
Speaker 1: but that seems it's brutal and and Vita says racist
Speaker 1: ship constantly too, like there and and it kind of
Speaker 1: for Vita. Vita's character for me is so she's just
Speaker 1: hard for me because there's so much like I guess
Speaker 1: I'm interested in what everybody thinks, because it was there
Speaker 1: were so many times where I was like, I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure if I was supposed to be on Vita's side
Speaker 1: or not, where it seemed like either Noxima or Chichi
Speaker 1: We're making a very valid point to her and she'd
Speaker 1: be like, no, we have to do this, and I'm
Speaker 1: like no, Vita, like, listen to your friends, and then
Speaker 1: plot wise, she would end up being right like and
Speaker 1: that happens a few different times, like where at one
Speaker 1: point with the cop where us trying to decide, you know,
Speaker 1: should we stay should we leave, and Noxine is kind
Speaker 1: of like, no, we have to get the funk out
Speaker 1: of here, like this is a real and present danger,
Speaker 1: and Vita's like, oh okay. But it's like Vita's whole
Speaker 1: core quality being that she, you know, perceives herself to
Speaker 1: be very pure of heart and wants to kind of
Speaker 1: be this fairy godmother to the world. And that happens
Speaker 1: again with Carol Anne. It's just I don't know, Vita
Speaker 1: was was tough to crack for me. I think I
Speaker 1: think that we should discuss the relationship between Vita and
Speaker 1: and Soccertani's character then, because that that formed a big
Speaker 1: component to this film, because it really that's where it
Speaker 1: really bites off more than it can chew. Among many
Speaker 1: other times, this is this this plot line is where
Speaker 1: it bites up way more than it can chew. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's part of a larger issue that I have
Speaker 1: with this movie in that it's about three queer characters
Speaker 1: who end up focusing all of their energy on helping
Speaker 1: straight people. And this is like a trope that is
Speaker 1: commonly seen in like rom coms and other genres. This
Speaker 1: is also a trope in my actual life. So total
Speaker 1: I am I yes, unfortunately, this is this is something
Speaker 1: that happens. I am, I am constantly called in that's
Speaker 1: character witness some straight persons woud that is not fair
Speaker 1: to you? What is that? So we see this a
Speaker 1: lot where Usually the situation is that there will be
Speaker 1: a straight protagonist in a movie who has a gay
Speaker 1: best friend, and the only thing the queer best friend
Speaker 1: is allowed to do in the story is to basically
Speaker 1: just give advice to the straight person. This movie like
Speaker 1: dials that up and says no, the three main characters
Speaker 1: are queer people. So they're not even like the side
Speaker 1: best friend characters. They are You're like three core characters
Speaker 1: and they are still doing nothing but helping straight people
Speaker 1: who are like the secondary characters. Right there, there's still
Speaker 1: the queer advisory board. Yes, right to the point where
Speaker 1: at the end they're like removed from the action and
Speaker 1: they're on a balcony. They're not even at the party.
Speaker 1: They're right, they're levitating above them. They had to hide.
Speaker 1: Ye yeah, I just I think the subplot with the
Speaker 1: Stalker Channing characters. Stalker Channing's character is is that that's Carolina.
Speaker 1: Her name Caroline yea. So her character is she's running
Speaker 1: the house that the queens are staying at, and she's
Speaker 1: in an abusive relationship with her husband physically abuses her.
Speaker 1: And it's pretty it's pretty up front about it, Like
Speaker 1: it's not like he's openly abusive and unrepentant about it
Speaker 1: does makes no attempt to even hide it or anything else,
Speaker 1: and everyone just kind of this is this kind that's
Speaker 1: what it does. That's what that's what he does. How
Speaker 1: it is, And like Vita's purpose in the film at
Speaker 1: that point becomes, you know, enabling this labeling Caroline too
Speaker 1: to move on with her life and get this bad
Speaker 1: man out of it. And again, the movies is buying
Speaker 1: off way more than it can chew at this point,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's totally inconsistent and you end up just
Speaker 1: not doing the subplot justice. Glad you have, you know,
Speaker 1: really charming actors stccer Channing, Patrick says, a great performers,
Speaker 1: a great charming performers. They do a lot to sell
Speaker 1: this stuff, and I think Hollywood movies especially, they are
Speaker 1: reliant on on the charisma of their of their stars
Speaker 1: just to sort of paper over the crap that they
Speaker 1: have written for them. Right, Because similar to how after
Speaker 1: one little like lesson in Manners and Etiquette, NOx Ema
Speaker 1: is able to cure a whole group of bullies who
Speaker 1: are prone to sexual assault, Maxima cures the sexual assaulting
Speaker 1: bullies and then she makes a mute woman talk. There's
Speaker 1: there's a lot, there's a lot of translating magic going
Speaker 1: on this thing, which the way disability is treated as
Speaker 1: a gag, like as a joke with that character is
Speaker 1: obviously not acceptable. It's so it's it's it's. I mean
Speaker 1: so much about the tone of this movie is bizarre,
Speaker 1: but where where it is very much biting up more
Speaker 1: that it can choose, Like, well, if we want this
Speaker 1: to be a comedy, why why do we keep introducing
Speaker 1: these beats into the story where exactly like everything is
Speaker 1: so upsetting? Why you have your insiding incidents some sexual
Speaker 1: assault when they could have just had the car breakdown,
Speaker 1: Like doc Hollywood does the same plotline. Cars from Pixar
Speaker 1: does the same plot line, but they don't they're not
Speaker 1: they're not motivated by this extra character, especially because he's
Speaker 1: not really posing any threat to them except for the
Speaker 1: very end of the movie, and then that is very
Speaker 1: easily resolved immediately this formal wall and like that's it,
Speaker 1: and run him back out of town as quick as
Speaker 1: he came. It's so the cop the cop storyline is
Speaker 1: is also just so frustrating because it's like taking a
Speaker 1: very very real issue of i mean, on multiple levels,
Speaker 1: on how police treat trams women, on how police treat
Speaker 1: people of color, where he uses like racial slurs back
Speaker 1: to back, Yes, hard racial slurs, not not even euphemisms.
Speaker 1: He's going he's going straight for them. Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: and then assaults Vita and like these things all happened
Speaker 1: back to back to back, and then this character just
Speaker 1: becomes a cartoon as the movie goes on, and it's
Speaker 1: again it's one of those things where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: Douglas Carter Bean, like this is a very real issue
Speaker 1: that it's like, if you want to keep the movie
Speaker 1: this light, then don't introduce that plot point, because it's serious.
Speaker 1: They could have exercised Chris Penn's cop character and not
Speaker 1: have had any problem whatsoever. They could have every beat
Speaker 1: could have been preserved without that piece, that person there.
Speaker 1: But that's that's that's again, that's Hollywood stuff. They're like,
Speaker 1: that's a that's an exact question that exects asked. Where's
Speaker 1: the danger, where's the concept, where's the danger? That's what
Speaker 1: they expect, especially when you have queer people, like queer
Speaker 1: people in America where they have to be imperil otherwise
Speaker 1: it's not being authentic. This is one thing I read
Speaker 1: in their temporaneous reviews is that people were critical of
Speaker 1: the film not being dark, like you can't have queer
Speaker 1: characters and without having the you know, run through the muck,
Speaker 1: because then it's not authentic and like that sound straight
Speaker 1: people view queer life and it's not that. I mean
Speaker 1: it is that, don't get me wrong. I I have
Speaker 1: an absolutely you know, I have an absolute heart attack
Speaker 1: once a week. Uh, just dealing with the straight world.
Speaker 1: And I have a very sheltered life. I do you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in a safe city and like I'm I'm a
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a white person, so I as far
Speaker 1: as the trans woman goes, I'm pretty sheltered. But like
Speaker 1: I still have to deal with stressful situations. Sure, I
Speaker 1: just I just wish that. I just wish the film
Speaker 1: we're just better about it or just didn't put them
Speaker 1: in there. Like, if you're gonna have this lighthearted rob
Speaker 1: where everything is fabulous, just be it's totally fine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at the very least, and this is like minuscule and
Speaker 1: surface level. I was like, at least, this is like
Speaker 1: one of the few movies from this era that isn't
Speaker 1: afraid to show a cop character being a bad person
Speaker 1: and a racist and misogynists and etcetera. But like, again,
Speaker 1: this movie is not equipped to handle like so much
Speaker 1: all of that, So yeah, just get it out of there.
Speaker 1: But as far as the subplot with Caroline and Vita,
Speaker 1: you know, basically empowering her to leave her husband, and
Speaker 1: there's this weird beat at the end where the abieceive
Speaker 1: husband looks at her and it looks like they're going
Speaker 1: to get back together. They give like this weird wondering
Speaker 1: about that look at each other, and then he just
Speaker 1: sort of walks away, and it's like, I don't think
Speaker 1: you get it. I don't think you get this get
Speaker 1: this at all? Douglas Carter Bean, right, I was like,
Speaker 1: was that her being like, now go on and get
Speaker 1: or was that her being like maybe, yeah, we're going
Speaker 1: to figure this out. Like yeah, the most the most
Speaker 1: generous because it's open to interpretation. The most generous interpretation
Speaker 1: that I'm willing to give it is that she was
Speaker 1: she was adopting this power pose to be like, look
Speaker 1: at what you missed out on. You could have had
Speaker 1: this empowered woman and he begrudgingly gives her the respect of,
Speaker 1: you know, not being an us all and walking away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is the most generous interpretation that I can give
Speaker 1: to the scene, but it is open to many other interpretations. Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and Gina, I think you're saying this earlier.
Speaker 1: But like the scenes where he's vague physically and verbally
Speaker 1: abusive to her are very intense and to be explicit,
Speaker 1: and the way that they're presented, and it's just I
Speaker 1: don't know. We we just got to talk to Douglas
Speaker 1: Carter Bean about all of this, because this is like, okay,
Speaker 1: the if you want this to be a fun rob
Speaker 1: but it would just be so jarring where sometimes something
Speaker 1: very upsetting would happen and then the music would be
Speaker 1: like do do do do do do do just like
Speaker 1: I think, I think. I think in Douglas carter Bean's defense,
Speaker 1: he has a fun name to say, so I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's why we keep saying it. He was He wasn't
Speaker 1: the composer, he was at the editor. The whole thing,
Speaker 1: the whole thing, even Kidren. The whole thing is there's
Speaker 1: a there's probably a lot of people that just missed
Speaker 1: the boat on it. But yeah, yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of dissonance. So so when we say Douglas carter Being,
Speaker 1: we're really we're really meeting the executive creative team. But
Speaker 1: it's just it's a much more fun thing to say
Speaker 1: that Douglas carter Bean. We could say Douglas carter Bean
Speaker 1: and company, company and company at all, the grand Douglas
Speaker 1: carter Bean. Yeah. In conclusion, this movie is trying to
Speaker 1: tackle a lot of things that it's not equipped to tackle.
Speaker 1: There's also but it's and then there's like another confusing component,
Speaker 1: at least to the cop character, where he's hurling these
Speaker 1: racist slurs, and that's part of what lets us know
Speaker 1: that he is a bad person. And then the movie
Speaker 1: turns around and has Vita and NOx Sima hurle racist
Speaker 1: slurs and very racially charged comments to Chee chee. And
Speaker 1: that's just how the ladies relate to each other. Question Mark, Like,
Speaker 1: that's exactly I would be remiss not to at least
Speaker 1: addressed Chechi Rodriguez Um as a character. So again, watching
Speaker 1: this movie, I remember watching the trailers back when I
Speaker 1: was a kid and seeing che she and being like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I could be her. I'm not fabulous
Speaker 1: in that way, but like we were. We were very
Speaker 1: physically similar, same size, same basic complexion, and like I
Speaker 1: saw myself in that character. And that's like the reason
Speaker 1: why I didn't watch it, because I didn't want to
Speaker 1: see myself in this character. I I picked up that
Speaker 1: Chechi was a trans woman watching it back then, because
Speaker 1: she she more than any other characters. She she was
Speaker 1: moved and was addressed and talked and even though she
Speaker 1: was very like loud and out there, she was she
Speaker 1: was very much She's much more natural in presentation than
Speaker 1: than the other two women were. Like she she was
Speaker 1: allowed to have a little bit of a romance, even
Speaker 1: though she to sacrifice it. Again, that's the whole other
Speaker 1: thing again again Again, we're sacrificing stuff for the straits
Speaker 1: to be happy. We're sacrificing our happiness. There is an
Speaker 1: argument that that Vita makes where or maybe it's Naxy
Speaker 1: that makes this where it's like, you know, de woide things,
Speaker 1: you're hot, but wait till he finds out that he's not.
Speaker 1: You're not what he expects. No, it's true. I mean
Speaker 1: there there's definitely a safety issue. And that's why I
Speaker 1: am very upfront when I date anyone about what I
Speaker 1: have going on. But like the Chiche character, I really
Speaker 1: have to applaud logos almost performance in this and like
Speaker 1: and yes and yes, it's true. He's absolutely correct. It
Speaker 1: should be this should have been a Transploman. Should it
Speaker 1: would be a trans Wloman now if they were to
Speaker 1: make a remaker or a musical adaptation like they're planning.
Speaker 1: But he really imbued the character with a naturalism and
Speaker 1: with like just an inherent sort of interior femininity that
Speaker 1: the that the maybe the part didn't really call for,
Speaker 1: but I picked up on, you know, back then, and
Speaker 1: I was afraid of it. And I you know, if
Speaker 1: I had seen that, if I had been more brave,
Speaker 1: maybe I would have a different path in life. I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe not, but I just wish in some
Speaker 1: world that she was able to get the boy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that the storyline, because it's so disappointing to me. Another
Speaker 1: moment where I was just like Vida and yeah, why
Speaker 1: are you doing this? Let let the girl be happened,
Speaker 1: the girl on the and the and the cute country
Speaker 1: boy be happy together. Yeah, especially because this this movie,
Speaker 1: it sounds like it is like presenting itself as this
Speaker 1: like amazing like Romp, where it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: the tone of the movie lends itself to cheat Chee
Speaker 1: getting the boy. The tone what absolutely would have supported that.
Speaker 1: And also that boy is way older than Bobby Lee.
Speaker 1: That wasn't that was not a relationship. Bobby Lee and
Speaker 1: the Bobbies get together in the end after Chech lets
Speaker 1: the boy Bobby down and like they did like no
Speaker 1: girl boy. I was also I was like, she's a
Speaker 1: teenager question mark. But then I looked her up and
Speaker 1: she's only I think four or five years younger than
Speaker 1: John like Wisamo that actress. Yeah, it was it was confusing.
Speaker 1: It was confusingly presented. I thought she was supposed to be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's characterized as being quite young, and they did nothing
Speaker 1: to clarify that. Yeah, so that was icky. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: we we we have this story where even though Bobby
Speaker 1: Ray has known che Chief for all of twelve hours,
Speaker 1: he's spray painted a Coca Cola sign to say, like,
Speaker 1: I love you Chee che I mean the tone kind
Speaker 1: of again, the tone supported that. It just the tone.
Speaker 1: The tone demanded that they get together, and then when
Speaker 1: they didn't, that felt like a narrative betrayal. That felt wrong. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because their story up until that point is very sweet
Speaker 1: and pure, and it's you know, once they arrive in
Speaker 1: the town, you know, it's each of the Queen's kind
Speaker 1: of go on this like side quest where for Vita
Speaker 1: she is with Carol Anne and then uh Noxima is
Speaker 1: with Clara and then there's a whole thing going on
Speaker 1: there that was kind of fun. And but with Cheech,
Speaker 1: it's like Cheech has the best storyline. She you know,
Speaker 1: meets Bobby Ray. It's very cute. They're like falling in
Speaker 1: love in this very movie like way. It could have been.
Speaker 1: It could have been the notebook for trans women, That's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. And it wasn't missed opportunity, huge missed opportunity.
Speaker 1: It really sucks I was. I was very frustrated that
Speaker 1: that happened, and and that there is that conversation where
Speaker 1: all three ladies are in their shared room and and
Speaker 1: I just Vita is so frustrating to me, where I mean,
Speaker 1: Vida and Maxima are being very cruel to cheat Chee
Speaker 1: in this scene, they're characterizing her as being selfish for
Speaker 1: wanting to be with Bobby Ray, which is like ridiculous,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, what what entitles Bobby Lee? Like
Speaker 1: what entitles? Yeah, just because she's a cis girl, Like
Speaker 1: that's I guess that's it. Yeah, it reminds me. It
Speaker 1: reminds me of some like it Hot Is, like from
Speaker 1: the fifties. And in the end, so Jack Lemon is
Speaker 1: Jack Lemon and the other character they're in, they're in
Speaker 1: dragged to basically high out from the mob, and Jack
Speaker 1: Lemon's character is is being courted by this guy. And
Speaker 1: then in the end, like the very ending scene, he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm actually a man, Like he wasn't trans
Speaker 1: or anything. He's like, I'm a man. I'm hiding out
Speaker 1: and that guy they that was courting him the whole
Speaker 1: times as well. You know, nobody's perfect and that's the
Speaker 1: last line in the film is Nobody's perfect and like
Speaker 1: implying that I still want you Jacque Lennon, like they
Speaker 1: did that in the fifties. Yeah, they're okay, Marilyn Monroe movie,
Speaker 1: the biggest movie that year, had that ending. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: this movie four decades later, couldn't even fathom the idea
Speaker 1: of a trans woman and Bobby Ray. Yeah, they couldn't.
Speaker 1: They couldn't do a Nobody's perfect. They did it in
Speaker 1: ninety six, though, whenever that movie came out, right, God,
Speaker 1: with that context, it is like three times more if
Speaker 1: you're infuriating, And it's uh that that scene where Cheech
Speaker 1: is understandably upset that Vida and Noxima are just completely
Speaker 1: ruling out this romance for her, and she says another
Speaker 1: thing that you're just like, as one audience member, You're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: CHEECHI is totally right where she is giving via ship
Speaker 1: and saying, I'm sick and tired of this freakazoid white
Speaker 1: lady telling a black and Latin lady way is up,
Speaker 1: down and under and just you know, kind of calling
Speaker 1: Vita out for thinking that she knows what's best for
Speaker 1: everyone and that her like code of morality is the
Speaker 1: universe's code of morality. But then the plot acts as
Speaker 1: if Vita was right, and so it's like, that's another
Speaker 1: narrative example where it was like, well, does the movie
Speaker 1: just think that Vita is right about goddamn everything? I just, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it does. I think I think the movie
Speaker 1: was just allowing that like pushback, like acknowledging, hey, all,
Speaker 1: this is also a point. But also, bet this is
Speaker 1: correct because Vita is because the mother of the cast,
Speaker 1: so she has to be the correct one because she's
Speaker 1: the mother. That's what archetypically, that's what they were thinking.
Speaker 1: I love doing podcasts like this, and I love doing
Speaker 1: my own podcast that is very similar to this, but
Speaker 1: like I always end up like kind of hating me
Speaker 1: after after we're done talking about it. Did I enjoy this?
Speaker 1: Did I fun watching that? Didn't I laugh? Most of
Speaker 1: the time, I've I've had so many former favorite movies
Speaker 1: of mine be like, oh funk, I can't like I was.
Speaker 1: I was literally enjoying this movie two days ago. We
Speaker 1: fucked up with our career choices, and it's especially concerning
Speaker 1: for the movie to make it seem like Vita is
Speaker 1: right about discouraging Chee Chee from pursuing this relationship. When
Speaker 1: Vita is saying stuff like you're being devious, you're lying
Speaker 1: to this boy because Chee che has not disclosed her situation,
Speaker 1: whether that be here like to trans status. If there
Speaker 1: was an arc to that, if there was an art
Speaker 1: to Vita being shitty and coming to realize later on
Speaker 1: that she was being shitty, that it would that be
Speaker 1: a different story. Characters are allowed to be shitty or
Speaker 1: totally if we're just a movie where people are just
Speaker 1: shitty to each other, if we're just Glen Gary Glenn Rosster,
Speaker 1: trans woman, that would have been that would have been
Speaker 1: a totally different thing. I would watch that. Glen Garry
Speaker 1: Gun Ross can suck my butt. Wow, Wow, strong words.
Speaker 1: That's it's a strong response. I know what I'm choosing
Speaker 1: for my birthday. We're doing Glen Gary Glenn Ross. Truly
Speaker 1: the most boring movie I've ever had the displeasure of
Speaker 1: watching anyway. But yeah, that means so totally we should
Speaker 1: If they were going to do that, then we should
Speaker 1: have seen some some like come around moment where he
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I was wrong. But of course the
Speaker 1: movie doesn't think that she was wrong. That's the problem
Speaker 1: movie things. She's right. Yeah, movie thinks that trans women
Speaker 1: shouldn't be with straight boys, the straight boys should be
Speaker 1: with straight girls, and you know, never the Twayne shall meet,
Speaker 1: and that apparently queer people shouldn't be with anybody like well,
Speaker 1: you know, for three centered drag queens. If we trusting
Speaker 1: the film in internal logic, these are drag queens. These
Speaker 1: are the least sexual drag queens I've ever seen. I've
Speaker 1: been around a lot of drag queens, and they there's
Speaker 1: some dirty ladies. Like I said, I attempted to do
Speaker 1: drag in Florida. Bad choice, by the way, Florida not
Speaker 1: the place to do drag for no other reason. The humidity,
Speaker 1: of course, uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. But like I, you know,
Speaker 1: I you know, I had a drag mom and I
Speaker 1: had like I to drag moms. I had an evil
Speaker 1: drag mom, and I had a good drag mom. And
Speaker 1: like the evil drag mom was on crystal meth and
Speaker 1: was like this total disaster, but taught me all the
Speaker 1: short cuts, and the good drag mom was very much
Speaker 1: very much like Vita, almost the same person, but taught
Speaker 1: me like this kind of like backward like Republican version
Speaker 1: of drag. But they're also you know, very horny ladies,
Speaker 1: both of them, and that doesn't necessarily not every drag queen,
Speaker 1: not every gay person, not every clear person is horny,
Speaker 1: but like there was no sex whatsoever with these any
Speaker 1: of them. They were just fabulous and they mostly talked
Speaker 1: about their outfits and you know, and and the and
Speaker 1: the capitalists struggle and like they and I get it,
Speaker 1: it's it's assist film. But like it's like they had
Speaker 1: room for racial slurs and no one could be horny,
Speaker 1: Like right, yes, exactly, they had room for racist no
Speaker 1: one could be a morning take out the racism put
Speaker 1: the horny. Yeah, that storyline just really bummed me out. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The last Vida character assassination that I have to do
Speaker 1: is in that same scene. And this is kind of
Speaker 1: where the where it becomes clear that's like, oh the
Speaker 1: movie is just is going with Vida's view on things
Speaker 1: kind of in in this just very clear way of
Speaker 1: like the movie things, Vita is is the correct person.
Speaker 1: Where they are hearing carol An be abused by her husband. Um,
Speaker 1: which again, why why why is this happening in a
Speaker 1: Romp and again, I think Naxieva brings up like a
Speaker 1: pretty nuanced point there where Vida's like, well, we have
Speaker 1: to go help her, and Naxiema says there are times
Speaker 1: when you help people and then there are times that
Speaker 1: if you help people you end up being killed, So
Speaker 1: then you don't help people, which is like a pretty
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like in logic it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you have to help everyone at all times, but like
Speaker 1: if you consider the context that Naxieva's saying that in
Speaker 1: where again it's like a potential safety issue that it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I, yeah, she's got a point. She's absolutely
Speaker 1: as a point, but the movie of course doesn't reinforce
Speaker 1: that there is no actual They're never in any actual danger.
Speaker 1: Everything is easily solved. But yeah, no, I that was
Speaker 1: really weird because like, yeah, Noxy is right. Unfortunately Noxi
Speaker 1: is right. You do want to help, but not in
Speaker 1: that way like you know, spirit her away later on
Speaker 1: when when the coast is clear. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things you could do that, aren't you busting
Speaker 1: down the door and beating the ship out of this
Speaker 1: guy and you know, putting yourself in danger with the log.
Speaker 1: You know, again, the tone of the film allowed allowed
Speaker 1: for this to play out in the most in the
Speaker 1: most flattering way that it could. This is a fantasy movie.
Speaker 1: It absolutely, it's like hard fantasy. Unintentionally kept reaffirming the
Speaker 1: white lady's perspective as the correct one, or maybe intentionally
Speaker 1: it did, I don't know, but it didn't seem it
Speaker 1: didn't seem to don't seem to entertain much room for argument.
Speaker 1: That's the other thing too with Vita is that she's
Speaker 1: the only character that we have any backstory on, and
Speaker 1: she's like the white character. Because they drive through Vita's hometown,
Speaker 1: we find that she's we find out she's estranged from
Speaker 1: her family, that she you know, gave up her family's
Speaker 1: wealth because they didn't accept her, and then we don't
Speaker 1: get any To be fair, they don't do anything with
Speaker 1: that backstory really, but you defended out. Yeah, you totally
Speaker 1: just drive on like them. That's where I used to live. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: moving on while we're on a schedule. So that's it's
Speaker 1: like especially weird then too include that since it doesn't
Speaker 1: even pay off, but it doesn't come back, you can't
Speaker 1: help but notice that the other two characters don't get
Speaker 1: any kind of backstory like that. Not really, you do,
Speaker 1: at the very least you get a sense of what
Speaker 1: Noxima wants to do. She's like, I'm gonna go Sorry,
Speaker 1: there's a million sirens, but she like, she's like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go to Hollywood and I'm going to be discovered
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be in the pictures. And she's
Speaker 1: like a huge film buff and right, and she she
Speaker 1: has an arc, a bear arc, but an arc where
Speaker 1: she's like, is gonna have to deal with me? So
Speaker 1: she has a little bit of something but no history.
Speaker 1: Absolutely right. Yeah, I did enjoy that scene with her
Speaker 1: and Clara the Yeah, the woman that she gets to
Speaker 1: speak for the first time since I think that the
Speaker 1: reason she didn't speak for a long time is because
Speaker 1: her husband left her. It was some something like that
Speaker 1: has been related affliction that that that has that has
Speaker 1: got to be some sort of like anti Bechtel cast
Speaker 1: anti Betel Teth. The man leaves and the woman can
Speaker 1: no longer speak at all. It's like Ariel the Mermaid style,
Speaker 1: just like her voice is in a seashell somewhere. We
Speaker 1: don't really know. He took he took the voice with him,
Speaker 1: oh god, with his ties clunky as hell. But I
Speaker 1: liked that scene between the two of them. I like,
Speaker 1: Wesley Snipes is very good. They're all very good. Is
Speaker 1: it made me wish she had stuck them more comedies.
Speaker 1: He's so funny in this movie. Yeah. Also, he got
Speaker 1: totally snubbed because Patrick Swayze and John languis Almo both
Speaker 1: got Golden Globe nominations for their roles in this movie,
Speaker 1: but Leslie Snipes did not. Yeah, well, you know, there
Speaker 1: you go. That's good old. I mean, that's the Globes
Speaker 1: for one. That's wee we finally canceled down and it
Speaker 1: was like took us long enough, but like, well, like yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a there's a lot of cool little scenes in
Speaker 1: this film. That's a great scene. That's that character, actors,
Speaker 1: He's fantastic scene or a million things. Leslie Snipes is
Speaker 1: so good in that scene, so good in this movie
Speaker 1: in general. That that's the stuff I enjoy, is the
Speaker 1: stuff that's not the plot. It's just them hanging out.
Speaker 1: And I think I think that's what most people enjoy,
Speaker 1: Like like, no one really is, Like when they talk
Speaker 1: about the positive aspects of this film, They're not like, well,
Speaker 1: you know they really that third act turnaround was really awesome,
Speaker 1: Like they it's just the people being people, which is
Speaker 1: what most movies are, just the people being people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the queer characters fixing the lives of these straight
Speaker 1: people and um giving them makeovers. I was talking to
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, straight woman, and she's dating this guy,
Speaker 1: older man in in Las Vegas and she wants to
Speaker 1: spend the week with him, and they were staying at
Speaker 1: his friend's place for a couple of days, and basically
Speaker 1: his friends were like, we don't understand trans gender. Explain
Speaker 1: it to us, white straight lady. And then she then
Speaker 1: she was telling me all about how how she you know,
Speaker 1: she explained it to them, and that you were fighting
Speaker 1: with her and then she got it and she's looking
Speaker 1: at me like do I get up? Do I get
Speaker 1: a cookie or something like that? And I'm like, and
Speaker 1: she's basically like, what what would you What would you
Speaker 1: have done? Well? If I were in that situation is
Speaker 1: what I said. I would have left because I I
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. I don't want I don't
Speaker 1: want to educate the straits. That is not your burden
Speaker 1: to bear not my friend. And you know, if a
Speaker 1: if a room full of Trump supporters as me to
Speaker 1: explain transgender to them, that's a trap. I'm I am
Speaker 1: leaving that room in Vegas, no less, in Vegas, not less,
Speaker 1: where the desert, everywhere? Yes, yeah, leave the room. Break
Speaker 1: up with the guy whose friends are those people? Yes,
Speaker 1: go away? That's like that happens again. Don't do that?
Speaker 1: Just go away? Yeah? Does anyone have anything else they'd
Speaker 1: like to talk about? You know? I again, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: the film for what it was. There's a lot you
Speaker 1: kind of have to just roll with it this movie.
Speaker 1: But what it was to me is a movie about
Speaker 1: three trans women that are friends with each other. And
Speaker 1: even though they say a lot of weird racist it
Speaker 1: isn't necessary or or at all desired. They were friends
Speaker 1: and they were nice and they had fun. And that
Speaker 1: is a quality in queer cinema that we don't see
Speaker 1: enough of, especially in the limited experience of trance movies.
Speaker 1: You know, when I was picking films to discuss with
Speaker 1: with y'all, I wanted to discuss something trans related because
Speaker 1: that's my experience, and I think it's important that people
Speaker 1: with the experience talk about their experiences. But I also
Speaker 1: didn't want to pick like a downer and like that's
Speaker 1: that's a tough one. Like I want to talk about
Speaker 1: queer Joy, I want to talk about trans joy, Like
Speaker 1: that's where that's where I'm coming from a comedian. I
Speaker 1: I like like fun and so this was what I
Speaker 1: had to work with. And it and as that as
Speaker 1: fill in the correct terminology in your own head when
Speaker 1: they say drag queen to say transpleman in your head,
Speaker 1: just make the edit in your own mind and it'll
Speaker 1: be a little better. And just ignore. Go go make
Speaker 1: some key during those couple of scenes, and we talked
Speaker 1: about otherwise, it's a it's a fun little romp. It's
Speaker 1: a fun rump. And yeah, for for anyone who especially
Speaker 1: like when this movie was coming out, when there were
Speaker 1: so little other options for queer representation in cinema, especially
Speaker 1: queer Joy. So for anyone who saw themselves represented, who
Speaker 1: saw themselves in those characters, that means a lot. That's
Speaker 1: we we don't want to take that away from anyone.
Speaker 1: What we do want to take away from someone is
Speaker 1: what's the writer's name? Against want to take it away
Speaker 1: to the pen from Douglas Carter be and company. Uh no,
Speaker 1: with all to say it really fun to say it
Speaker 1: with all respected, Douglas Carter being uh your name is
Speaker 1: wanted to say, we're taking your pen um? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: what what? I hope and I watching this movie. It
Speaker 1: for all of its faults, it is such a fun
Speaker 1: romp and there is so much joy and it is
Speaker 1: just like fun to watch these ladies be friends and
Speaker 1: you know, navigate conflict in a very dated way, but
Speaker 1: they're navigating conflict in their friendships. And I hope that
Speaker 1: this is the sort of movie that, you know, just
Speaker 1: paves the way for for more movies like it that
Speaker 1: you don't need to you know, plow through the dissonance,
Speaker 1: and that there there will be more movies that are
Speaker 1: just like translators on a road trip, like having fun
Speaker 1: Like that sounds wonderful, like let's get that. One thing
Speaker 1: I did like about this film, and from especially refreshing,
Speaker 1: is that there were no coming out discussions. There were
Speaker 1: no like when did you know you were different type discussions,
Speaker 1: which is basically what so many of queer representation was.
Speaker 1: It was you were either talking about coming out or
Speaker 1: you were dealing with some terrible disease and or social affliction. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like there there was other textures to their life, which
Speaker 1: was very very refreshing for me to see something from
Speaker 1: that time that did that for sure. Yeah. And I
Speaker 1: like the chee chee wins at the end. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's her consolation prize for for you know, losing
Speaker 1: the boy. She gets. She gets, she gets the crown
Speaker 1: instead of the boy. She has the sacrifice her love for,
Speaker 1: you know, to become royalty. Yes, exactly, because that's that's
Speaker 1: her head wigging the angry inch moment. She's she's just
Speaker 1: she sacrifices for success. That's another movie we have to cover. Okay, Sorry,
Speaker 1: this is like I promised the last thing to say.
Speaker 1: But like Bobby Ray again, it's just like a character
Speaker 1: logic thing, but like he just pivots so quickly where
Speaker 1: like he's love with cheechee cheese is the love of
Speaker 1: my life. And then she's like not now. And then
Speaker 1: he's like I'm going to get married to I was like,
Speaker 1: do you just what is what's going on in your head?
Speaker 1: Bobby Ray? Walk me through this. He just loves the
Speaker 1: woman who is closest to him. He loves loves remember
Speaker 1: her love was love in love with love. Whoever is
Speaker 1: geographically closest to him in that moment, that's who he loves.
Speaker 1: By the end, I was like, he's not good enough
Speaker 1: for you, chee cheet, this man has no he's easily Yeah,
Speaker 1: no he really wasn't. But like they could have made
Speaker 1: that into some kind of character work that they could
Speaker 1: have played with that. But now that was just bad writing.
Speaker 1: That was just straight people. Now they're being straight together.
Speaker 1: So many things get like too easily resolved or inexplicably resolved,
Speaker 1: or things will go on a weird trajectory that doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense, you know. So goes the ROMP. So
Speaker 1: goes the ROMP. Yes, straight up. Uh So, let's talk
Speaker 1: about the Bechtel test as it applies to this movie.
Speaker 1: If we are operating on these three women being trans women,
Speaker 1: then yes, the movie passes all the time. It passes
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test handily because the characters are so neutered
Speaker 1: they have no real sexuality except for Cheat a little
Speaker 1: tiny bit. She's basically like she's basically like this nineteen
Speaker 1: fifties like Peyton Place type at that point, right, So
Speaker 1: she's she has she has romantic interest but no sexual interests.
Speaker 1: But the Naxi and and Vida have have no sexuality whatsoever.
Speaker 1: Just about so, yes, it passes the Bechtel test. There's
Speaker 1: probably some other test that it doesn't pass. We don't
Speaker 1: know what that test is. There are there are definite
Speaker 1: tests it does not but um oh, Actually I do
Speaker 1: want to shout out the May test, which was created
Speaker 1: by transactor and filmmaker Kylie May, and the May test
Speaker 1: examines trans representation on screen. We will link to some
Speaker 1: information about that. It's definitely worth checking out. I also
Speaker 1: want to shout out a few lines of dialogue from
Speaker 1: the movie that I enjoy. Um. This one is from
Speaker 1: Carol Anne tu Vita says, I think it's really important
Speaker 1: for a woman to have lady friends. Nice do you
Speaker 1: are you? Including in these lines the last bit of
Speaker 1: dialogue between the two of them that weird exchange where
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't think of you as as a
Speaker 1: man or as a woman as a woman. I think
Speaker 1: of you as an angel, and then the responds with
Speaker 1: I think that's healthy. Healthy response blew my mind. I
Speaker 1: You know what though, I actually kind of enjoyed that
Speaker 1: response because as a trans worman I have had plenty
Speaker 1: of straight women tell me new straight says, women tell
Speaker 1: me that they think of me as an angel or
Speaker 1: as you know, some sort of superhuman or whatever. Like
Speaker 1: I've had. I've had plenty of like women confess that
Speaker 1: I'm some sort of like thing beyond humanity. Yeah, some
Speaker 1: sort of like walking got us among us, and like,
Speaker 1: I'm far from that. But it's better than it's better
Speaker 1: than hate. So when Vita says, I think that's healthy,
Speaker 1: that's kind of my response is, like, well, it's better
Speaker 1: than hate. I think that's healthy. I think that's that's something. Anyway,
Speaker 1: That's what I took away from it. That was the
Speaker 1: one that was the one moment from like Vita's perspective,
Speaker 1: from like, yeah, girl, I I get it. Take take
Speaker 1: the W, take the W and just walk away. I
Speaker 1: liked Swazy's delivery of that line too. Yeah it's just fun. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then earlier in the movie, Carol Ann also says,
Speaker 1: and this doesn't technically pass because she mentions men as
Speaker 1: a concept, but she's like, I think we should get
Speaker 1: rid of all men. But I feel like that does
Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel test because but then also she's like,
Speaker 1: but we can we can keep mel Gibson. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's but then she says he's not allowed to think
Speaker 1: or speak, and I was like, that's better. Okay, has
Speaker 1: an improvement. If mel Gibson has to be alive, I
Speaker 1: too do not want him to think. You should not
Speaker 1: think mel Gibson is allowed, but only as an automaton
Speaker 1: do it? Um? Yeah. And then we've got our nipple scale,
Speaker 1: our scale of zero to five nipples, in which we
Speaker 1: rate the movie based on how it fares looking at
Speaker 1: it through an intersectional feminist lens. So it is, as
Speaker 1: we've discussed, very much a product of its time. Understandings
Speaker 1: of gender identity, gender expression, sexuality were things that most
Speaker 1: people in did not have a very nuanced understanding of,
Speaker 1: including everyone who made this movie was so unintentional, I
Speaker 1: intentional good stuff. Yeah. So, you know, it's not gonna
Speaker 1: fair great because of that. It's not going to um
Speaker 1: fair great because of all the casual racism the many
Speaker 1: of the characters display, including two of which who we
Speaker 1: are supposed to be rooting for. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: got of a lot of problems of the time. But
Speaker 1: then but then you have again, like queer representation, misguided
Speaker 1: though it may be in a huge movie with huge
Speaker 1: stars that a lot of people saw that it does,
Speaker 1: you know, celebrate queer joy, which was very rare for
Speaker 1: that time especially. But even so, I feel like I
Speaker 1: can only give it like two nipples because bringing it
Speaker 1: back around to the because thing, I will give one.
Speaker 1: I'll give one to cheat chee. I'll give one to
Speaker 1: the conversation between Noxima and what was a character's named Clara,
Speaker 1: Clara who they talk about movies and like old Hollywood stars.
Speaker 1: I really liked that scene, so very sweet and I
Speaker 1: learned things. I was like, I always love when the
Speaker 1: movie sneakily teaches me something, right, Yeah, scene, yeah, totally
Speaker 1: that scene Noxima is like, oh my, one of my
Speaker 1: favorite actors was I forget the name of the woman,
Speaker 1: but she's like she she's a black woman, but she
Speaker 1: never Dorothy yah. Yeah, she never. She never played the
Speaker 1: help and she was in all these amazing roles. But
Speaker 1: then she, you know, the white Hollywood machine like chewed
Speaker 1: her up and spit her out, um BRB, gotta go
Speaker 1: be racist to cheat, And it's like, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about next? Em And the way that scene ends
Speaker 1: to where it's like, I don't know, I love old
Speaker 1: Hollywood stuff. And when Clara ends it by being like,
Speaker 1: let's do Lena Horn next, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this seems so fun. Yeah, that was a that was
Speaker 1: a cool little scene. Scenes where the people are being
Speaker 1: people are great. I would I would have to rate
Speaker 1: a slightly higher on the nipple scale only because of
Speaker 1: its relative um as a queer person. We're so used
Speaker 1: to being forgiving of our texts, understanding the flawed as
Speaker 1: they may be, because they are so rare, we we
Speaker 1: have to kind of like we have to love them
Speaker 1: even though they are imperfect. We have to love them
Speaker 1: anyway because they are ours and we have so few.
Speaker 1: Totally fair. So I'm going to give it three nipples
Speaker 1: based on that, and really highly disappointed into casual racism,
Speaker 1: and that's probably the thing that makes me detract from
Speaker 1: what the most, as well as it's incredibly poor depiction
Speaker 1: of of domestic violence, because those are those are completely unnecessary.
Speaker 1: Those are generally unnecessary anyway, but they're completely necessary to
Speaker 1: the to the film, and the film just leaves them
Speaker 1: be basically, so an imperfect vessel of queer joy. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it three nipples. That's how I feel, awesome, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what about you? I guess I guess I'll split the
Speaker 1: DIF and I'll do it two and a half here.
Speaker 1: I I don't think that I have anything to say
Speaker 1: that we haven't said already. But the casual racism in
Speaker 1: particular was really frustrating and unnecessary. And the fact that
Speaker 1: they were able to justify certain things, be like certain
Speaker 1: instances of violence being there, but then they wouldn't allow
Speaker 1: their three queer main characters to have love lives is
Speaker 1: just so. Dare I say there? There are a lot
Speaker 1: of elements that watching this in are frustrating, But I also,
Speaker 1: you know, want to hold space for in respect for
Speaker 1: the fact that this movie was made and was a success,
Speaker 1: and that it was pushed for at a time where
Speaker 1: movies like this we're not pushed for in the mainstream
Speaker 1: and this is a sucking Steven Spielberg movie like and
Speaker 1: and knowing more about the context that this movie was
Speaker 1: released in, you know, doesn't fix things, doesn't make the
Speaker 1: most glaring issues that this movie has better, but it
Speaker 1: did help me understand and and you know, at least
Speaker 1: give makes me hope for romps like this that are
Speaker 1: not burdened with the same issues that this movie is
Speaker 1: burdened with because they tried. I well, U it seems
Speaker 1: like they tried. Okay to two and a half. And
Speaker 1: I'll give one to chee chee. I'll give oh Naomi
Speaker 1: Campbell is in this movie for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I'll give one to her. And I will
Speaker 1: put the last half in the trunk of the car
Speaker 1: and see if anyone finds it later. Just really quick
Speaker 1: assigned my nipples. I've forgotten that this about this part.
Speaker 1: A critical gets a nipple, obviously, I will say Naxi
Speaker 1: and that's and the lady in the talking about old
Speaker 1: movies and Darky Andrews gets just gets a nipple. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that the final nipple goes to the
Speaker 1: too Wong food scene, which we completely the very opening
Speaker 1: scene where we're not very opening, but the opening scene
Speaker 1: where they're stealing the picture off the wall and they're
Speaker 1: being kind of racist towards each other. Yes, absolutely, but
Speaker 1: that scene, in that bit where Vita steals the picture,
Speaker 1: I'm giving a nipple too, because it's the only transgressive
Speaker 1: thing Vida does in the entire film. True, she is
Speaker 1: she is. She is such a saint every time everywhere
Speaker 1: else in this movie. But she steals the two Wong
Speaker 1: Food picture, steals the Juliannumar picture because it speaks to her,
Speaker 1: and then she gives it away to stop your channing
Speaker 1: as she starts her new life. So to Vita stealing
Speaker 1: to Julie Numar, the insiding incident that the titular Julie
Speaker 1: Numar to Wong Food Picture, I give my final nipple.
Speaker 1: Two beautiful and Gina, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for you for having me. What
Speaker 1: a treat to come back anytime. Thank you. I'm sorry
Speaker 1: we ruined the movie. No, it's okay, okay, But now
Speaker 1: that I have, now that I've been on the show
Speaker 1: and I've spoken for for trans representation, should you have
Speaker 1: me back on. I'm going to talk about something not
Speaker 1: trans because I have more than that to me. I
Speaker 1: am a big fan of the Fast and Furious franchise.
Speaker 1: I'm on many other things, so we can go on
Speaker 1: and on about all kinds of stuff. The next time
Speaker 1: come back on fore nine is that yes nine, and
Speaker 1: they bring the Asian dude back from the dead for
Speaker 1: a second time. So there you go very excited. I
Speaker 1: have only seen the first two and then Hobbs and Shaw,
Speaker 1: so I need to catch up on my Fasts and
Speaker 1: the Furious. That's just a for instance. There's all there's
Speaker 1: a there's a whole hundred and twenty years of cinema
Speaker 1: out there that I would love to talk about. Anytime
Speaker 1: you guys would have me back, We'll open it up.
Speaker 1: We'd be delighted, love it. And then where can people
Speaker 1: follow you online and check out your stuff? Check out
Speaker 1: your upcoming tour dates? So all my socials are at
Speaker 1: Gina Bloom, j E and a B L o M.
Speaker 1: That's mostly Twitter and Instagram. You can find me in
Speaker 1: the fallow September, I'll be touring the southern US Asheville, Atlanta,
Speaker 1: New Orleans. More dates to come. I'll get that up there,
Speaker 1: and also New York City because I am originally a
Speaker 1: New York lady, so I'll be returning there. So it
Speaker 1: will be both the South and New York in the fall.
Speaker 1: And the new season of my podcast We Jamie and
Speaker 1: Caitlin have already been on and we had a delightful time.
Speaker 1: We'll also be premiering in the fall as well. I
Speaker 1: talk about movies and other stuff. It's all it's all
Speaker 1: about translating, making fun of bro stuff. So you enjoy
Speaker 1: me talking about this. You can find me on my
Speaker 1: show talking about Bruce Willis movies. Please and please do
Speaker 1: please check it out and you can check us out
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Bechtel Cast. We've got our
Speaker 1: Patreon a k a. Matreon. It's five dollars a month.
Speaker 1: It's to bonus episodes each month, plus access to the
Speaker 1: whole back catalog, and it's at patreon dot com, slash
Speaker 1: Becktel Cast and you can grab some merch if you're
Speaker 1: so inclined at t public dot com slash at the
Speaker 1: Bactel Cast. That's where all the stuff is incredible. And
Speaker 1: with that to Gina Bloom, thanks for everything the facts,
Speaker 1: Caitlin and Jamie, are you guys? That was heartwarming? Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for everything everything, Bye bye