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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe mcformick.

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Speaker 2: So the title for this episode comes from a poem

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Speaker 2: by English poet Elizabeth Jennings With nineteen twenty six through

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one. This poem contains the lines observe

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Speaker 2: it there the fountain too fast for shadows, too wild

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Speaker 2: for the lights which illuminate it, to hold even a

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Speaker 2: moment an ounce of water back. The poem in full

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Speaker 2: details how we might observe a fountain in an urban

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Speaker 2: center and makes a comparison to more ancient traditions. Joe,

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Speaker 2: were you familiar with this poem or this poet prior

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Speaker 2: to this episode? She was a new one for me.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure the name is familiar, but I need

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Speaker 3: to look up more of her stuff to to see

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Speaker 3: if there's anything I recognize well.

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Speaker 2: This poem fountain, Like I say, it also connects back

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Speaker 2: to some of these more ancient traditions that are reflected

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Speaker 2: in our tradition of spending times with fountains and other

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Speaker 2: water features. Just to read another bit from it, quote

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Speaker 2: see in that stress, an image of utter calm, a stillness.

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Speaker 2: There it is how we must have felt once at

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Speaker 2: the edge of some perpetual stream, fearful of touching, bringing

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Speaker 2: no thirst at all, panicked by no perception of ourselves,

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Speaker 2: but drawing the water down to the deepest wonder well.

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Speaker 3: That phrasing gives a much profounder spin to the kind

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Speaker 3: of awe that I recall feeling when looking at fountains

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Speaker 3: as a child. Particularly, what I remember is a fountain

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Speaker 3: in the mall in my hometown when I was a

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Speaker 3: kid that had a kind of kind of a tile

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Speaker 3: mosaic bottom that was always covered in pennies. I guess

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Speaker 3: the idea is that people would throw pennies into the

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Speaker 3: fountain and make a wish. At least that's what I

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Speaker 3: was always told you did, and I really liked to

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Speaker 3: do this, and I think firmly believed in the magic

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Speaker 3: of the wish granting powers of the fountain.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even think about fountains and water features and malls,

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Speaker 2: but oh man, shopping malls had some great ones as

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Speaker 2: far as I remember, and of course smaller at the time,

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Speaker 2: so they seemed more gigantic, you know, some sort of

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Speaker 2: a fountain there in the atrium of the mall beautiful

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Speaker 2: to behold.

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Speaker 3: I do remember thinking when I saw all of the

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Speaker 3: pennies on the bottom, I also thought, at some point

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Speaker 3: they must clean all those up, because it's not like

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Speaker 3: overflowing with pennies. They've got to go in and get them.

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Speaker 3: And then my thought as a child was who gets

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Speaker 3: to keep all that money? That's so much money when

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Speaker 3: you collect all of them, you know, that's got to

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Speaker 3: be tens of dollars.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is why that one scene in the

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Speaker 2: Goonies I think was so impactful, the extrap elation of

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Speaker 2: our dreams of harvesting the coins of a fountain.

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Speaker 3: You know, Oh, is that is that in the Goonies.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember that they had the same thought I did.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, they in the Goonies, if memory serves, It's

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Speaker 2: been a long time since I've seen it. There's that

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Speaker 2: there's like these caverns beneath the wishing well, and that's

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Speaker 2: where all the coins are, and one of the kids

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Speaker 2: goes to steal a bunch of them, and they're like, no, no,

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Speaker 2: those are peaceful people's wishes. You're not supposed to take them.

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Speaker 2: And the children, you know, abstain and ultimately they have

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Speaker 2: pirate gold on the radar.

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Speaker 3: So well, I didn't make the connection. I did believe

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Speaker 3: in the wish granting powers, and I did greedily lust

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Speaker 3: after all of the penny money, but I didn't think

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Speaker 3: that would be stealing people's wishes. It's already granted right

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Speaker 3: once the pennies there, Now it's just free money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know how that it depends on superstitious Sure,

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Speaker 2: I guess how it works, but at any rate, I yeah,

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Speaker 2: I always am curious to see if a fountain has coins,

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Speaker 2: And even though I don't nowadays, I'm not thinking about

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Speaker 2: harvesting them. I'm still just one of the things I

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Speaker 2: kind of like checking off the mental checklist when I

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Speaker 2: check out a fountain. Are there coins in it? What's

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Speaker 2: the filtration system look like? You know, where's the water

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Speaker 2: coming out of? Like, if there's a fountain somewhere, I

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Speaker 2: need to get closer to it so I can take

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Speaker 2: it all in. Beyond that, I don't think i'd ever

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Speaker 2: really thought about, you know, any universal truths about the

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Speaker 2: calming nature of fountains. I've always just kind of in

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Speaker 2: the back of my mind thought well, they're nice. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: they have interesting statues incorporated into their design, and they

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Speaker 2: can be cooling on a hot day, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: And they're often like at the center of everything, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think of like the fountain in Washington Square, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think about the indeed, the fountains in the atrium

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Speaker 2: at a mall, at a shopping mall, which was like

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Speaker 2: a center of community in some respects.

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Speaker 3: Well, and yet another way that the fountain was sacred

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Speaker 3: to my child's brain. But taking some of the profound

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Speaker 3: varnish off of it, I do associate the idea of

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Speaker 3: a fountain with the smell of the mall food court,

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Speaker 3: you know. It's that's where the saborrow mingles with the

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Speaker 3: with the Kariaki place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the ma All food court of our childhoods. This

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Speaker 2: is a place where you also had freedom, like suddenly

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Speaker 2: you could often often the case, you could choose what

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Speaker 2: you were going to eat, and it made you feel powerful.

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Speaker 2: But coming back to water features and fountains specifically, of course,

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Speaker 2: we have to think larger than that. We have to

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Speaker 2: think too about just like running water, bodies of water

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Speaker 2: in general, and you know, personally, and I think this

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Speaker 2: applies somewhat universally. I've always found waters to be calming

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Speaker 2: to be around. They're often great places to do some

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Speaker 2: thinking or to do less thinking in a good way,

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Speaker 2: you know, to sort of unshackle from your normal thought process.

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Speaker 2: And I think I've mentioned before on the show that

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Speaker 2: there's a very useful stress reduction exercise that makes use

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Speaker 2: of this connection. It's called leaves on a stream. It's

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Speaker 2: a cognitive diffusion technique that allows you to distance yourself

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Speaker 2: from the thoughts that you're having. So the way it goes,

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Speaker 2: and you can look this up online. There are plenty

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Speaker 2: of online resources that that spell it out in more detail.

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Speaker 2: But you imagine yourself seated beside a running stream. You

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Speaker 2: imagine taking a given thought, essentially taking it out of yourself,

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Speaker 2: placing it upon a floating leaf, and allowing the stream

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Speaker 2: to carry that leaf and the thought away from you.

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Speaker 2: And you know, everyone's mileage may vary, but I find

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Speaker 2: it very constructive. But I was thinking about it again here,

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Speaker 2: thinking about fountains, thinking about natural bodies of water, and

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Speaker 2: they're they're they're calming powers.

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Speaker 3: It does seem like an especially nice image for concretizing

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Speaker 3: your your emotions and your thoughts because it's it's passive,

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Speaker 3: like the the water does the carrying away for you,

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Speaker 3: so it doesn't even involve you having to imagine like

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Speaker 3: forcing or shoving the idea away. It is just carried

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Speaker 3: away by nature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Now we've talked a bit on the show

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Speaker 2: previously about the history and importance of public water works.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to reachret all of that here, but

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Speaker 2: I wanted to at least touch on some of it

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Speaker 2: in this case via a twenty fifteen article titled Short

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Speaker 2: Global History of Fountains by Juty at All, published in

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Speaker 2: the journal Water. That's pointed out that the word fountain

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Speaker 2: stems from the Latin fawnds, which can refer to both

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Speaker 2: artificial and natural water features, not like the fawns on

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Speaker 2: happy Days, but fis I've also read that the source

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Speaker 2: is fontana, which informs the medieval fount or source, and

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Speaker 2: so fountain becomes a symbol of a providing source as well.

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Speaker 2: Like this idea of a fountain as being this thing

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Speaker 2: from which something else beneficial arises becomes pretty crucial to

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Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of our language. Now, the

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Speaker 2: construction of fountains properly dates back to ancient times, and

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Speaker 2: the authors of this paper point out that regional water

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Speaker 2: available played a role in what form fountains took and

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Speaker 2: how they were fed. For instance, they mentioned that for

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Speaker 2: the ancient Egyptians bringing water out for the people or

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Speaker 2: for personal use, it was a matter of pulling water

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Speaker 2: from the Mighty Nile. Meanwhile, the Minoans and the Greeks

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Speaker 2: brought water down from the mountains via aqueducts. So this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, something to keep in mind. There's the sort

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Speaker 2: of especially when you go back into the origins of fountains,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot more practical purposes in mind for

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Speaker 2: having that water there, And then how do you get

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Speaker 2: the water there? You're not just piping it in from

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Speaker 2: the local modern water system, you know, there are other

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Speaker 2: means that have to be in place. One of the

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Speaker 2: primary purposes for ancient fountains was of course to bring

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Speaker 2: water to the people for drinking, as well as for

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Speaker 2: other uses such as bathing. We've talked about that on

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Speaker 2: the show before. Another big one that I hadn't thought

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Speaker 2: as much about, and I guess part of this is

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Speaker 2: because we haven't we've touched on Firefight, but we haven't

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Speaker 2: done a lot on firefighting, but this was another reason

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Speaker 2: to have a source of water available in a center

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Speaker 2: of the population.

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Speaker 3: I think we actually did a pretty extensive look at

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Speaker 3: firefighting in our Invention episode on the fire extinguisher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we got into like fire extinguisher grenades and

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Speaker 2: so forth. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But going into ancient history, how the fire fighting in

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Speaker 3: ancient Rome and how it had a very different character

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Speaker 3: because if I remember correctly, the early version in maybe

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Speaker 3: like the first century BCE or so, there was like

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Speaker 3: a rich guy who instituted fire brigades who would come

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Speaker 3: to your house if it was on fire, not to

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Speaker 3: like as a public service, put it out for you,

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Speaker 3: but to say, hey, I will buy your house for

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Speaker 3: the following price, take it or leave it. And if

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Speaker 3: you know, if you agreed to let this guy buy

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Speaker 3: your house, then his dudes would put out the fire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's a scene in one of Stevens

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Speaker 2: Sailor's Gordian Honest books that take place in ancient Rome

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Speaker 2: where this exact situation takes place with like the building

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Speaker 2: burning down and here's the sky shows up and he's like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, it looks like your property is really plummeting

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Speaker 2: in value. Now would be a great time to sell

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Speaker 2: to me, as opposed to five minutes from now.

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Speaker 3: Wicked in an especially hilarious way. But of course, you know,

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Speaker 3: later on the idea of firefighting as a public service

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Speaker 3: that benefits everyone does develop, And yeah, of course there

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Speaker 3: are a lot of different ways to fight fires, and

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Speaker 3: not all of them involve water. Of course, some involve

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Speaker 3: like you know, pulling down structures to create barriers to

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Speaker 3: fire spreading and things like that. But yeah, water of

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Speaker 3: course is quite often one of the most important tools

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Speaker 3: in fighting fires.

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Speaker 2: Now. One of the things about bringing water into a city,

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Speaker 2: one of the problems here are potential potential problems, is well,

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Speaker 2: you can have to deal with drainage, removal, fouled water,

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Speaker 2: and various public health challenges that can emerge from public

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Speaker 2: water works, and that can get into things like you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to worry about water borne ill illnesses, potentially mosquitoes,

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Speaker 2: things of that nature. So systems to bring water into

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Speaker 2: a city these were extremely important for human civilizations, and

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Speaker 2: we see them in all the major civilizations of the

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Speaker 2: ancient world as well as the various ancient civilizations of

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Speaker 2: the New World. The earliest carved water basin apparently dates

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Speaker 2: back to three thousand BC in the Mesopotamian site of Tello,

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Speaker 2: and a stone fountain figure in another Mesopotamian site, Mari

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Speaker 2: dates back to two thousand BCE. This would basically be

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Speaker 2: in line with the common fountain trope that we've seen

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Speaker 2: again and again of a goddess holding a base of

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Speaker 2: some sort that releases piped in water, just sort of

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Speaker 2: an irresistible image. And I guess part of this comes

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Speaker 2: down to, like what a fountain does that like recasts

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Speaker 2: the idea of water being gifted to people.

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Speaker 3: As if from a morton.

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Speaker 2: Joe, Yeah, yeah. The Romans were, of course masters of hydraulics,

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Speaker 2: which they adopted from the Etruscan civilization, and the Roman

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Speaker 2: tradition greatly influenced the medieval fountain tradition to follow. Now,

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Speaker 2: one thing in this paper that I thought was really interesting.

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Speaker 2: They point out that in China, wells and streams were

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Speaker 2: along the primary source of water, so wells tend to

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Speaker 2: play the role we see public fountains play in other

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Speaker 2: parts of the world. In some of these Mesopotamian accounts,

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Speaker 2: these public wells were crucial as well to city planning.

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Speaker 2: These would be the things that you plan the structure

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Speaker 2: of the city around. They also note that quote spring

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Speaker 2: and structures have also assumed characteristics of fountains in China,

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Speaker 2: so what we might think of as proper fountains were

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Speaker 2: also introduced and built in urban and palace settings later

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Speaker 2: over the course of centuries. But sometimes you might have

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Speaker 2: something just constructed at a where a spring emerges or

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Speaker 2: where a spring has come to, and this will sort

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Speaker 2: of take on the building and appearance of a western fountain.

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Speaker 2: Now The authors even include discussion of modern and industrial

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Speaker 2: age water kiosks in the paper, which serve the purpose

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Speaker 2: of distributing clean water to the people, though without most

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Speaker 2: of the more aesthetically pleasing aspects that you associate with

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Speaker 2: a public fountain. Nowadays, you can look up images of

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Speaker 2: various water kiosks that I believe they're especially common in

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Speaker 2: subs of how in Africa a place where people can

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Speaker 2: go and get water, and it often takes on a

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Speaker 2: more I guess, sort of commercial appearance. I mean it

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Speaker 2: looks like a little shop in many cases. Sometimes they

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Speaker 2: even you see something that looks more like a vending machine.

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Speaker 2: And you can also make comparisons like water kiosk and

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Speaker 2: say public ice dispensary, you know those you see these especially,

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Speaker 2: we see these a lot in the United States. I know,

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Speaker 2: when you go into rural areas and there's like the

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Speaker 2: standalone machine that you can pull up to, you pay

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Speaker 2: the machine and you get some ice. You know you

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Speaker 2: are buying water. I'llbeit in a frozen form from that

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Speaker 2: machine right now. That Beings said, I guess water kiosks

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Speaker 2: could still be considered like a social center, a place

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Speaker 2: where people were going for water. And while most of

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Speaker 2: the examples I was looking at seem largely transactional and functional,

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Speaker 2: I suppose it doesn't have to be the case.

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Speaker 3: Though.

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Speaker 2: When I looked around for like more pleasing designs and

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Speaker 2: water kiosks, the only thing that was coming up for

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Speaker 2: me were various design competitions that were more situated in

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Speaker 2: say London, and were essentially coming up with water fountain

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Speaker 2: designs that you know, looked crazy things that weren't necessarily

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Speaker 2: I think, actually brought to life in urban settings. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe the there have been efforts to

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Speaker 2: sort of evolve water kiosk sites throughout the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world as well. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Well, this idea sort of highlights the two different faces

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Speaker 3: of the civic water dispensing area. So you can have

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Speaker 3: on one hand, something that is functional that is there.

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Speaker 3: It's a place for people to get water that they

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Speaker 3: need for you know, everything in life basically that you

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Speaker 3: need in order to drink, to cook, to clean and

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Speaker 3: so forth. And then the other idea is water based

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Speaker 3: infrastructure that is there to be enjoyed, maybe the same

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Speaker 3: way that a park would be there to be enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: I think in the popular imagination, something that brings all

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Speaker 2: these together is, of course the chocolate factory of Willy Wonka,

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Speaker 2: where we see the chocolate mixed by waterfall. It is

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Speaker 2: a pleasing water fall to behold. You're you're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to swim in it, of course, but still, you know,

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Speaker 2: some uses of the chocolate are available via fun and

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Speaker 2: then of course we do have chocolate chocolate fountains at

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Speaker 2: events and all. So it is weird how we get

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Speaker 2: into this use of fountains, both in the imagination and

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Speaker 2: in reality, for liquids that are not drinking water.

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Speaker 3: Why do the culinary fountains always go in the sweet direction?

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Speaker 3: I want to see more savory ones, you know. So

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Speaker 3: it's the nacho cheese fountain, the gravy fountain. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what, maybe cheese fondue fountain. I guess that's pretty

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Speaker 3: similar to nacho cheese.

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Speaker 2: Well that that surely exists, right, some sort.

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Speaker 3: Of a cheese fountain, I suppose, I would guess.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, coming back to this Water Journal paper, the authors

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Speaker 2: here they stress that fountains also often stood as symbols

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Speaker 2: of power and wealth. Somebody builds them, someone provides them

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Speaker 2: for the people. But there's still this calming element to

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Speaker 2: the urban fountain, offering sites and sounds conducive to relaxation

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Speaker 2: that are frequently cited in histories and literature. As many

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Speaker 2: of the practical reasons for public fountains declined in modern times,

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Speaker 2: the esthetic elements remained in playing the soothing sites and

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Speaker 2: sounds of the running water. Another interesting point this is

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Speaker 2: something I read in Fountains as Reservoirs of myth and

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Speaker 2: memory from Myths on the Map the Storied Landscapes of

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Speaker 2: Ancient Greece from twenty seventeen by Betsy A. Robinson, or

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Speaker 2: this section about fountains is by Robinson, and in this

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Speaker 2: they point out that public fountains, specifically those in Greek traditions,

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Speaker 2: were also a means of quote, connecting past and present

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Speaker 2: and establishing authority by the manipulation of architectural form and

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Speaker 2: the selective retelling of stories. So I found that fascinating

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Speaker 2: to think about and be reminded of, because the public

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Speaker 2: fountain here is both a means of bringing water to

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Speaker 2: the people, but also conceptualizing the deliverer of that water

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Speaker 2: by means of myth and legends reflected in the carvings,

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Speaker 2: the statues and so forth then make up a given fountain.

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Speaker 2: For instance, who is the goddess that is pouring forth

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Speaker 2: the water, and what is that goddess's relationship to the

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Speaker 2: to the people in power at the moment, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Yes, flowing water almost kind of naturally tells a story,

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Speaker 3: or it easily can be narrativized in some way by

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Speaker 3: you know, filling in the infrastructure around it with images

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Speaker 3: and representations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you imagine if our primary sources of water

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Speaker 2: today are faucets, what if by law they were required

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Speaker 2: to resemble entities or beings or specific people in power

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Speaker 2: as they're bringing forth your prescious drinking or dishwashing water.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the faucet is like your local water commissioner's face

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Speaker 3: and the water is coming out of their mouth or

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Speaker 3: something like vomiting the water to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Away. The main idea we're exploring this episode, though,

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Speaker 2: is the idea that there is something soothing, calming, and

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Speaker 2: mentally restoring about public fountains, something that may, you know,

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Speaker 2: subjectively seem to be the case with many of us,

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Speaker 2: but you know, is there something more objective there as well.

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Speaker 2: There's actually been a fair amount of certainly recent scholarship

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Speaker 2: on the topic that we're going to touch on in

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Speaker 2: this We're going to get into this idea of blue spaces.

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Speaker 2: So in the world of urban and land use planning,

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Speaker 2: there's green space obviously, you know, we think of gardens, trees,

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Speaker 2: whole parks, et cetera. And then there's a subset of

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Speaker 2: green space known as blue space. And the blue of

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Speaker 2: course refers to water, you know, as water is often

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Speaker 2: blue on the map, if not in actual visual appearance,

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Speaker 2: and it entails all manner of naturally occurring and artificial

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Speaker 2: water features, including fountains. Now, once again it's important to

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Speaker 2: stress that proximity to natural and or artificial Blue Spaces

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Speaker 2: has always come with certain additional risks and potential danger.

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Speaker 2: We talked about those already, but there's also this compelling

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Speaker 2: idea that blue spaces are an overall mental and or

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Speaker 2: physical health benefit to those with access to the feature.

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Speaker 2: And on one hand, this basic idea would seem to

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Speaker 2: line up with the late EO. Wilson's biophilia hypothesis, something

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Speaker 2: we've talked about on the show before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is kind of interesting. So we've done multiple

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Speaker 3: episodes exploring and critiquing the biophilia hypothesis at length in

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Speaker 3: the past, so we're not going to go into great

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Speaker 3: depth on that again here, but briefly, in Wilson's words,

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Speaker 3: this would have been what he believed was quote the

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Speaker 3: innate tendency to focus on life and lifelike processes. So

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Speaker 3: the argument goes that there is something in our brains

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Speaker 3: that calls us to be fascinated by and attracted to

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Speaker 3: other forms of life beyond just the obvious and direct

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Speaker 3: benefits to our survival that we would get from them.

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Speaker 3: So it's obvious why you would be attracted to, say

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Speaker 3: an animal or a plant that you might eat for food,

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Speaker 3: but that our fascination by and attraction to life forms

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Speaker 3: goes way beyond this, goes to you things that you

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Speaker 3: can't eat, things that you can't necessarily get any tangible,

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Speaker 3: quantifiable benefit from. We still these other life forms, We

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Speaker 3: still want to see and touch and spend time around them,

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Speaker 3: and when they're not present in our lives, we feel

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Speaker 3: a kind of we feel that loss as a kind

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Speaker 3: of malaise or unhappiness. And so a funny thing here

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Speaker 3: about water is that, of course, moving water is very

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Speaker 3: often associated with the suite of esthetic and environmental preferences

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Speaker 3: suggested by the biophilia hypothesis. Yet of course water is

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Speaker 3: itself not alive. It, like rocks and air, is part

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Speaker 3: of the inorganic environment. And yet of course the presence

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Speaker 3: of water is greatly associated with the presence of life. Basically,

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Speaker 3: all life on Earth needs water to survive. And it's

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Speaker 3: not an accident that when you know, you're walking through

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Speaker 3: the desert and you come to an oasis, it is

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Speaker 3: suddenly surrounded by forms of life that were not found

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Speaker 3: in the surrounding landscape.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And you know, you can make the argument that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're hardwired to appreciate something like a nice

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Speaker 2: flowing stream as opposed to another body of water. How

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Speaker 2: would how would Donald Pleasance put it?

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Speaker 3: Joe, Oh, the spirit of dark and lonely waters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the dark and lonely water.

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Speaker 3: That's it, ready to trap the unwary, the show off

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Speaker 3: the fool.

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Speaker 2: In this, we're of course referring to something we discussed

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Speaker 2: in an older Halloween episode what Jenny Green teeth, But

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Speaker 2: it was what a British public service advertisement or video

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Speaker 2: message warning you against stagnant ponds and the danger to

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Speaker 2: young children posed.

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Speaker 3: There right, warning children not to play in the in

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Speaker 3: the pools of black liquid that gather in abandoned buildings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah. Thinking about biophilia hypothesis in light of

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Speaker 2: all this is interesting. And I was looking around in

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Speaker 2: the book that Wilson co wrote on it, and at

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Speaker 2: one point mentioned he mentions that while uphill or spraying

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Speaker 2: aspects of artificial fountains rarely occur in nature, He points out,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously the geysers.

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Speaker 1: But.

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Speaker 2: Still even if a fountain is pumping water straight up

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Speaker 2: in the air, you know, it's still something we connect with,

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Speaker 2: even if this is not the normal way that water

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Speaker 2: behaves in just the average environment. He writes, quote, yet

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Speaker 2: the motion of water in fountains seems to have the

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Speaker 2: same hypnotic attraction as water flowing downhill in a waterfall.

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Speaker 2: He also writes that it would be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: a study of people observing quote, quiet and repetitive motions

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Speaker 2: of predators, sharks in an aquarium, circling birds of prey,

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Speaker 2: or other stalking movements of wolves, or large feeling which

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Speaker 2: combine Heraclitian movement with potential danger. Now, just to note there,

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Speaker 2: Heracliteanism is a philosophy concerning everything except the logos remaining

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Speaker 2: in flux, with the four elements eternally cycling into each

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Speaker 2: other and so forth. There's a lot to it, but

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Speaker 2: the philosopher of its namesake Heraclitis circle of five hundred BCE.

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Speaker 2: His ideas can be basically condensed down to the idea

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Speaker 2: that everything flows, that everything is becoming but never being,

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Speaker 2: and that does feel like it lines up with a

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Speaker 2: lot of the essence of moving water observations and the

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Speaker 2: various metaphors we form about it. But at any rate, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I like how this flows into the idea of the

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Speaker 2: attractive nature of streams and fountains. But coming back to

432
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: what Wilson ponders here and I looked up. I looked

433
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: it up. I wasn't able to find any studies that

434
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: actually took the challenge here, but I was wondering, Okay,

435
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: aquariums are especially relaxing, I find, or at least the

436
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: parts that involve fish and water. Sometimes the you know,

437
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: the crowds can be a bit much, but in terms

438
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: of like steering in through the aquarium glass at an

439
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: aquarium enclosure can be very relaxing. Sometimes there are sharks there.

440
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Our local aquarium has sharks, and I was trying to

441
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: I was looking back on my experiences of viewing those sharks,

442
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: and I'm like, is this relaxing? And I'm not entirely sure.

443
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: I mean obviously for me anyway. I mean, if I'm

444
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 2: looking at a shark in a shark tank, I know

445
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: that I'm not in danger. It's not gonna you know,

446
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 2: pop out of the glass at me. I'm distant from it.

447
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: On the other hand, observing large predators and zoo environments

448
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 2: sometimes can feel a little uncanny in my experience, you know,

449
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: like if the lion's looking right at you, that sort

450
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 2: of thing, or you know, another large predator is eyeing

451
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: your toddler, your infant, like that that gets a little

452
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: that starts, you know, turning on some some lights that

453
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: are kind of buried in your psyche. But in terms

454
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: of the sharks and the aquarium, I'm not sure. I

455
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: asked my wife about this and she was like, like, no, no,

456
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: it's it's absolutely relaxing. There's nothing, there's nothing stressful about

457
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 2: observing these predators. For her, I don't know if you

458
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: have any thoughts in this show.

459
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like I may have missed something. Here

460
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: was Wilson suggesting that the predators would be relaxing. I

461
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 3: interpreted that him to mean that the idea of a

462
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: slowly circling predator with Heraclidean movement would be like an

463
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 3: arresting image.

464
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think what I took to be the idea

465
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: is like which energy is going to win out? Like

466
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: the movement is relaxing, but it's a predator engaging in

467
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: the movement. In these we see traditional movements have said

468
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: predators like what is going to be the end result?

469
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 3: I see, yeah, okay, Well, I'm not sure what I

470
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 3: would say about sharks in particular. I mean, I certainly

471
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: find aquariums incredibly relaxing. But like you also, that is,

472
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 3: they're strongly counteracted by the presence of loud crowds around them.

473
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 3: But like a viewing an aquarium in a quiet space

474
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 3: is I think one of the most relaxing things I

475
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: can imagine. I'm not sure, Yeah, I'm not sure that

476
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: a shark being in there would really change anything about

477
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: it seeing a shark swimming around, I mean, assuming I'm

478
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: not in the water.

479
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, or in the captivity of a bond villain that

480
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: sort of thing.

481
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think that's probably still just as relaxing

482
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 3: as any other side of an aquarium.

483
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we've drifted off course a little bit.

484
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: Let's get back to just the basic idea that spending

485
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: time near a body of water would have some sort

486
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 2: of beneficial effect on you.

487
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: Right, So, at this point there have been a lot

488
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: of different studies investigating the impact of green and blue

489
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: spaces on human well being, and specifically, the question with

490
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: blue spaces would be does living near or spending time

491
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 3: I'm near a body of water improve your mental and

492
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: physical health, and if so, how does it create those improvements?

493
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: And fortunately, just a couple of years ago, there was

494
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: a meta analysis that rounded up all of the existing

495
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 3: research and synthesized what we know so far with a

496
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: special focus on the mechanism of action the question of

497
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: how blue space works on us. The paper is called

498
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: Mechanisms of Impact of Blue Spaces on Human Health, a

499
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: systematic literature review and meta analysis by Mikhail Georgiu at

500
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: All published in the journal the International Journal of Environmental

501
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: Research and Public Health in twenty twenty one, and this

502
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: study begins with a general survey of the research on

503
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: the health effects of exposure to natural environments. The authors

504
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: note that most of the research in this area has

505
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: actually been focused on something slightly different, on green spaces

506
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: rather than blue spaces, and this is also something we've

507
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: looked at in multiple episodes in the past. But short summary,

508
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: there is pretty strong evidence that living near or spending

509
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: time in areas where surfaces are covered in plant life

510
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: basically where you'd be exposed to grass, trees, vegetation of

511
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: various sorts, is correlated with a wide range of benefits

512
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: in all kinds of domains and everything from markers of

513
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: physical health, cardiovascular health, and so forth, to mental and

514
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: emotional well being, lower rates of anxiety, and things like

515
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: that and even like greater cognitive performance in school children. So,

516
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: in short, I think we can say with pretty high

517
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: confidence that it is good for you to spend time

518
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: in a park or a forest compared to spending the

519
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: same amount of time in a landscape fully paved with

520
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: metal and concrete and plastic. Something about living near and

521
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: spending time in those kinds of environments has a wide

522
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: range of benefits for your body and mind. Now, the

523
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: authors of this study note that a lot of the research,

524
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: unfortunately does not disentangle the variables of exposure to blue spaces,

525
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: meaning bodies of water, including lakes, rivers, coastlines, canals, and

526
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: in some cases even smaller features like fountains and things,

527
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 3: from exposure to green spaces. Sometimes the presence of water

528
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: is treated as part of the definition of green spaces,

529
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: sometimes not. So that's unfortunate, and it would be good

530
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: to separate these variables out to see if they have

531
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: effects independent of one another, And fortunately some studies have

532
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: done that. They've separated them out and looked at blue

533
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: spaces independently. Now, the first half of the question, do

534
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: blue spaces have positive effects on our well being? The

535
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: answer seems to be a pretty firm Yes, the author's right.

536
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: Recent epidemiological studies have shown that blue spaces have a

537
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: positive effect on public health, including the reduction of mortality

538
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: rate with the greatest rate of decline seen in areas

539
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: closest to blue space, better physical health, and better minntal health,

540
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: and their copious citations and support of these general statements.

541
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: So this brings us to the main question explored here,

542
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: which is why why is exposure to water or living

543
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: near water good for you? Why would it be good

544
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 3: for say, lowering your mortality or giving you better physical

545
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: health or mental health. And the authors of the study

546
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: explore four main hypothetical mechanisms, all of which are on

547
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: their own known to have significant positive effects on mortality,

548
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: physical health, and mental health. And these mechanisms are social interaction,

549
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: physical activity, environmental factors, and restoration. So physical activity, this

550
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: is pretty straightforward. Maybe blue spaces encourage people to get

551
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: more exercise. Getting more exercise is strongly correlated with decreased

552
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: mortality and improvements in mental and physical health. And maybe

553
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: something about living near water or having water in your

554
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: geographical area makes you more likely to exercise.

555
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: Okay, that seems to track.

556
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, second mechanism. Maybe it's social interaction. Maybe blue spaces

557
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: encourage people to spend more time interacting with others rather

558
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: than alone, which again has well known, well established benefits.

559
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: Third thing is environmental factors. This refers to the effects

560
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: of bodies of water on other local environmental variables that

561
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: have their own effects on human well being. The author's

562
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: right quote blue spaces may contribute to a healthier environment

563
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: and reduce air pollution, heat island effect, risk of flooding, etc.

564
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: And then fourth restoration, Exposure to blue spaces might improve restoration,

565
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: which they define by saying that they use the definition

566
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: from another paper, So I had to look up what

567
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: that paper was to get the definition, and basically it

568
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: seems to be quote recovery from depleted attentional capacity or stress.

569
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: This is also something we've blowed on the show before,

570
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: but basically the question here would be weather. Exposure to

571
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: water sources helps people relax and recharge, to recover from

572
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: depleted attention spans from having you know, people spend a

573
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 3: lot of their attentional energy on certain types of tasks,

574
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: or not even tasks, maybe even just you know, like

575
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: scrolling their phones or something all day. This creates a

576
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: lot of stress. And then there are other types of

577
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: experiences people can have that tend to restore depleted attentional

578
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: resources and relax you and sort of remove those biomarkers

579
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: of stress that people would notice, like you know, elevated

580
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: levels of cortisol and blood or in the saliva.

581
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Interesting. So yeah, it's kind of a satisfying exercise to

582
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: take these different factors and apply them to different sort

583
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: of activities and environments. Like, for instance, you think of,

584
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: say a fishing pond. A number of these you can

585
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: easily check off. I don't know, physical activity. I guess

586
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: you could have a discussion there regarding phishing, and I

587
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: guess it depends on how you're going about fishing. And

588
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: then likewise, if you apply it to say a fountain

589
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: in the middle of a public square, that sort of thing,

590
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: some of these more easily or checked off the list here.

591
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: But even like physical activity, I mean you think of

592
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: environments that have a fountain. I mean, I don't know

593
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: about the rest of you. I think of like children

594
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: playing inside fountain, whether they're supposed to do or not.

595
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: I think of people doing things around the fountain. So

596
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: even if you're not say attempting to swim laps in

597
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: the fountain or do boating in the fountain. There still

598
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 2: may be physical action that is encouraged around.

599
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: It, right, So we'll get to in a second what

600
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 3: the evidence for these factors or not is. But yeah,

601
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: you can't always know exactly how it works, but you

602
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: can imagine tons of possibilities like maybe having a canal

603
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 3: or a river or something nearby just makes people want

604
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 3: to get out and go on a walk more often

605
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: that it could be. Yeah, But finally I wanted to

606
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: finish up my note about what the mechanism with restoration

607
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: would be if blue spaces do encourage restoration that leads

608
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 3: to the better effects on mental and physical health, because

609
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 3: the authors say, quote stress, anxiety, depressed mood, and psychological

610
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: well being have been linked with the risk of cardiovascular

611
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: diseases and mental health issues, so that link is also

612
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: firmly established. So the authors did their review and analyzed

613
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: all the studies that had any results illuminating these possible

614
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: mechanisms whether they hold true or not, and there were

615
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 3: fifty studies total. In their review, they said twenty seven.

616
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: Ultimately they concluded had data relevant to the meta analysis

617
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 3: on this question, and what they found was quote three

618
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 3: of the four hypothesized pathways physical activity, restoration, and environmental

619
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: factors are supported by empirical evidence, while findings on social

620
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: interaction are inconclusive. Now, as for physical activity, they say,

621
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: people's physical activity seem to increase with both their proximity

622
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: two blue space and and with the total amount of

623
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: blue space in their geographical area where they lived. So

624
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: it seems that both of these factors are correlated with

625
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: people getting more exercise. It seems people get out and

626
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 3: get more physical activity if there is water somewhere in

627
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: their neighborhood, and also more if their home is physically

628
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 3: closer to water. So this seems like a pretty strong

629
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: candidate explanation. Second one is restoration. They found that blue

630
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 3: space was correlated with increased restoration the author's rite. Intriguingly,

631
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: the increase of amount of blue space within a geographical

632
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 3: area was found to be the highest among all mediating

633
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: pathways and exposures. This evidence, therefore suggests that developing more

634
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 3: blue spaces within neighborhoods could primarily benefit the restorative character

635
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 3: of an area. So having some kind of blue space

636
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 3: in your general geographic area definitely that helps with alleviating stress. However,

637
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: the interesting and kind of prizing thing to me was

638
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: that they did not find evidence that your individual proximity

639
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: to blue space had an effect on restoration. And they write, quote,

640
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: while urbanicity is found to increase mental disorders through stress,

641
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: we propose that creating more blue spaces and promoting contact

642
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: with them can be used to reverse this effect and

643
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: ameliorate urban living. So it looks like another fairly strong

644
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 3: candidate to me here, Having more water and waterways in

645
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 3: the general area where you live seems to have a

646
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: relaxation and restoration effect on people, counteracting stress and thus

647
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 3: achieving improvements in health. Of course, again, chronic stress is

648
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: bad for you. Now, the other two mechanisms were more

649
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 3: complicated or a different story. As for environmental factors, they say,

650
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: there is evidence for a couple of things, but it's

651
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 3: kind of complicated. So the authors did find some evidence

652
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 3: that blue spaces correlate with lowering heat stress and with

653
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: improving air quality, but they said that the evidence base

654
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 3: for those was kind of small and messy, and other

655
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: environmental factors they looked at, such as effects on noise

656
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 3: pollution and biodiversity, there was not enough evidence to reach

657
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: a conclusion. And then they also say when it comes

658
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: to environmental factors, there are some that could be operating

659
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: in the opposite direction. As you mentioned earlier, there could

660
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: be some negative environmental effects of having water nearby, such

661
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: as say being a vector for infectious disease or something

662
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 3: like that. So this one seems to be sort of

663
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: a question mark. The evidence for the effects that are

664
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 3: there is kind of weak, and effects appear to be

665
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: going in both directions. And then finally, for social interaction,

666
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: they said that the evidence again is kind of weak.

667
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 3: Previous findings were mixed, but the meta analysis did not

668
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: find a significant effect of blue spaces on social interaction.

669
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 3: But it does look like the evidence for two of

670
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 3: the four categories is pretty strong. Having more blue space

671
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood and living closer to blue space appears

672
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 3: to increase people's amount of physical exercise, which has strong

673
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: benefits for health, and living in an area with more

674
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: blue space in the general geographical region has restorative effects.

675
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 3: It helps people relax and recharge to counteract the stress

676
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 3: of life. Now, I do want to mention that this

677
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: study was focused on blue spaces in general, and the

678
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: majority of effects documented. From what I could tell, we're

679
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 3: probably coming more from larger natural and artificial waterways like

680
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 3: lakes and rivers and canals and so forth. So I

681
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 3: don't know how much you could map the total effects

682
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 3: of blue space onto specific things like smaller water features

683
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: installations like fountains and so forth.

684
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: Right, So don't take this podcast episode or or these

685
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 2: various studies here is just like clear evidence that it's

686
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 2: time to install that water feature in your yard, because

687
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: it might not have ultimately have that big a difference,

688
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: but who knows. Maybe it'll be delightful, maybe it will

689
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: be calming. Maybe all you need is that the sound

690
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 2: of trickling water.

691
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: But a lot of the more specific and detailed oriented

692
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: questions out of the way, it does seem just generally

693
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 3: true that, yes, green space is good for mental and

694
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: physical health, and blue space also seems to be pretty

695
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: good for mental and physical health.

696
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now. I was looking at a study out of

697
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two titled a population based Retrospective Study on

698
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: the Modifying effect of Urban Blue Space on the impact

699
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: of Socioeconomic Deprivation on Mental Health two thousand and nine

700
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: through twenty eighteen by Giorgio at all published in scientific reports.

701
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: I think this is the same first author as the

702
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 3: meta analysis I just looked at.

703
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: So this particular study quote aim to investigate whether living

704
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: near blue space lounge of two udinally modifies the effect

705
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: of socioeconomic deprivation on mental health the author's right quote. Hence,

706
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: we study longitudinally the impact of a large scale regeneration

707
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: of the Glasgow branch of the Fourth and Clyde Canal,

708
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: an urban blue space, on mental health, using routinely collected

709
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: clinical data. Now I had to look up some images

710
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: of what this area looked like. I included one here

711
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: for you, Joe. It looks nice. You basically have a

712
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: canal space with a lot of vegetation grown up on

713
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: one side of it, you know, and then I mean

714
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: a little bit on the surface of the water. You

715
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: have all it looks like a walking and or bicycle path,

716
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: and then some more green space and some walls and

717
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: some trees and whatnot. And it looks pleasant, looks like

718
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: a place if you lived in this area you might

719
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: go to for a bike ride or a walk, et cetera.

720
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: So a number of factors went into this localized study,

721
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: including distance one resides from the blue space, psychotropic medication prescriptions,

722
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: socioeconomic deprivation in the area, comorbidities, and demographics. So what

723
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: do they determined in this analysis? Will they identified a

724
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: protective modifying effect of living near the blue spaces in

725
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: relation to the impact of socioeconomic deprivation and mental health disorders.

726
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: So the idea here is that the blue space doesn't

727
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: completely cancel out all of the negative effects on mental health,

728
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: but it provides what they describe as a quote unquote

729
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: protective moat mm, which is also clever because you know

730
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: it's a water feature. But they also write that their

731
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: findings suggests that increased exposure to blue spaces rolled out

732
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: in urban spaces could reduce medication intake and reduce mental

733
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: health inequalities in urban areas.

734
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important to note that while like

735
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: the positive effects of things like blue spaces does appear

736
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: to be pretty good, also the effects are fairly modest,

737
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 3: so they're not going to be like a fix all

738
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: for all of everyone's problems. But they seem to be

739
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 3: part of a suite of solutions to generally make life

740
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: and make urban environments more friendly and those kind of things.

741
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 3: While no one of them is going to be life changing.

742
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 3: Probably they can add up.

743
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they can all add up to an increase

744
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: in quality of life, staving off some of these additional

745
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 2: mental and health issues. So something that should certainly should

746
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: be factored into urban planning, to urban restoration projects and

747
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: so forth. And you know, just on an individual level,

748
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: you can feel a little better about taking time out

749
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: of your day to be near water, be it in

750
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: the form of you know, some sort of an artificial pond, fountain,

751
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: et cetera, or local bodies of water and so forth.

752
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: You know, there's something I wonder about that I haven't

753
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 3: seen this sighted in any papers looking at or anything.

754
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: This is just kind of an amusing but I wonder

755
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 3: if there is some psychological benefit or quality of life

756
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: benefit to just having something near you that is an

757
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 3: excuse for you to go do something you don't have

758
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: to do, you know, And it can be anything. It

759
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 3: can be a you could be a park, or could

760
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 3: be a pathway near your house, or something just an

761
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 3: excuse to like an excuse to go do something that

762
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: is not work and is not like a screen. Does

763
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: that make.

764
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: Sense, Yeah, And that you know ultimately occupies your mind

765
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 2: in a way that that may force out other thoughts

766
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: and other preoccupations. You know that that taps into, you know,

767
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 2: our basic primal wiring to see what's going on over

768
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: there by the water. Are there ducks? What are the

769
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 2: ducks doing? Are they are they mining their own business?

770
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 2: Or are they looking at me suspiciously? Are there in

771
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: the fountain? Et cetera. And again, if you're on the

772
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: fence about building that coy pond, you know, don't don't

773
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: build it just because you listen to this episode. But

774
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: also maybe don't not build it.

775
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: We're not saying it's going to be a cure all,

776
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: but also, hey, you know, water's nice. Why not go

777
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: for it?

778
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: It might be nice.

779
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: Now, the one thing I would hesitate on is throwing

780
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 3: pennies in the pond with the fish.

781
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, yeah.

782
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's a bad idea, but I

783
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: have a hunch.

784
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, based on all the signs I see

785
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: places I go, they say don't throw the coins in

786
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: because they're not good for the fish or the turtles

787
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: or what have you. So unless it is a designated

788
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: wishing fountain, don't cast your wishes because it's you know,

789
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: it's not gonna work. All right, we're gonna ahead and

790
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: close this episode out, but we'd love to hear from

791
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: everyone out there. What are your thoughts on green spaces

792
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: and blue spaces? On naturally occurring bodies of water and fountains?

793
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite that you have observed or

794
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: hang out around frequently us, No, we'd love to hear

795
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: from you. Also, thanks to my wife who suggested this episode.

796
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: We were kind of casting around and I would I said, hey,

797
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: what would you like to hear an episode about? And

798
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: she said, oh, I've heard some about some studies regarding

799
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: blue spaces, and so we looked into it, and here

800
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: we are. If you would like to catch up on

801
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: past episodes of the show, where you can find them

802
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed. We

803
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: have core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have episodes

804
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: of Listener Mail on Monday's, short form Artifact or Monster

805
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: Fact episodes on Wednesdays. On Fridays, we set aside most

806
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on

807
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. And in terms of that fire Extinguisher

808
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: episode of Invention that we mentioned offhand, I cannot remember

809
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: if we have republished that one in the Stuff to

810
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. I assume that we have,

811
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: but there is also a separate abandoned podcast feed for Invention,

812
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 2: which is a show we did for a period based

813
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: on inventions, so you can also find it there.

814
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 3: Wish huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If

815
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with

816
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

817
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

818
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

819
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

820
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

821
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,960
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822
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:44,840
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