1
00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320
Speaker 1: From UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History is

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, everyone,

4
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. My name is Matt and I

5
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: am Ben. And this is stuff they don't want you

6
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 1: to know. And today we're gonna be talking about an

7
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 1: interesting topic personally for me. Then I'm sure you're probably

8
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,200
Speaker 1: interested in this as well. Uh. And that is whistle blowing,

9
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 1: and specifically at the beginning here Mr Edwards Snowdon. Yes,

10
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,280
Speaker 1: and when we say whistle blowing, lest you'd be mistaken,

11
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: we are not talking about someone actually blowing like a

12
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,239
Speaker 1: wooden chain whistle, although that is man, I think we

13
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: have a sound for that too. Crap. Yeah, we found

14
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 1: these sound effect things and then like the ring of

15
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,600
Speaker 1: power for us right now. What we are talking about, however,

16
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,160
Speaker 1: is something that we're probably all familiar with, at least

17
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,120
Speaker 1: here in the West. Now. The idea of a whistle blower,

18
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: someone who uh for no monetary gain um rather instead

19
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 1: for a philosophical quantry or what they feel like is

20
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,920
Speaker 1: moral imperative and a great threat to their own their lives,

21
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: their their job, family, often a great threat to their

22
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,400
Speaker 1: lives or or the possibility of having a family harmed.

23
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 1: They go public with something secret something I don't know

24
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,320
Speaker 1: if diabolical is the right word, but let's say shysty. Well,

25
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 1: there's usually a reason that they've decided to take such risks.

26
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, diabolical, I would say, is a pretty good

27
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: youth there. Um, Well, we're the point that we're making, though,

28
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,679
Speaker 1: is that a whistleblower is defined by again this sort

29
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: of sense of morality rather than um monetary gain or

30
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: some kind of vengeance idea. Uh so, why don't you

31
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 1: school me on Edward Snowden? Well, quickly, Yeah, let's talk

32
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 1: about who this gentleman is. He was a high school

33
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 1: dropout that's been talked about a lot in the news

34
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 1: or it was um but he went on to earn

35
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 1: his g d in computers according to biography dot com

36
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,120
Speaker 1: and at a community college, and then he ended up

37
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 1: working as a security contractor for the n S a

38
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 1: guard rather and then he worked for the CIA in

39
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 1: the information technology field. Then he eventually moved on to

40
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,239
Speaker 1: work for Booze Allen Hamilton's as a subcontractor and there

41
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: a tech consulting firm okay, and once he got there, No,

42
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,040
Speaker 1: that's all gray deal. That happens to a lot of people.

43
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,480
Speaker 1: That's their trajectories. They work for a government agency and

44
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: then they move into the much more lucrative world of

45
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 1: private contracting. That's how I did it. That's how you're

46
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,519
Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, and uh, that's what I'll do after

47
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 1: I get out of the Senate, right and part of

48
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,480
Speaker 1: my five year planned Um. But then he did something

49
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: very different from most of his co workers. He took

50
00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 1: as much confidential information as he could out of the system,

51
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 1: sent it to a couple of different places to be

52
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 1: released slowly over time, and then high tailed it to

53
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. Really, there's no other way to say it.

54
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,360
Speaker 1: In them from there to Russia, where he currently resides

55
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 1: as one of the most well known whistle blowers in

56
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,320
Speaker 1: history right now and also uh, someone that the United

57
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 1: States government would really like to get their hands on.

58
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,079
Speaker 1: So Ben, let's let's talk about why he escaped to

59
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 1: the United States to leak this information. Um, it's mostly

60
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 1: because there's been a lot of prosecution for against whistle

61
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: blowers in inside the United States rather recently, especially in

62
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: this current administration. They've been really really just taking on

63
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 1: whistle blowing and making it just basically really vilifying it.

64
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 1: And you're talking about Bradley Manning for another example. We're

65
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 1: also talking about the idea that uh, someone especially Manning's position,

66
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: someone who is UM, someone who is leaking stuff regardless

67
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,840
Speaker 1: of their motivation, being found in violation in the Code

68
00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,520
Speaker 1: of Military Justice, which I don't think applies to Snowdon UM.

69
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,479
Speaker 1: But given that he had a clearance and violated the clearance,

70
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 1: I think they're they're legal problems with this. Of course,

71
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 1: Snowdon is saying that he has no Snowdon is is

72
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: saying that he knows the law, and that's why he's

73
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,720
Speaker 1: staying out at the United States. Uh flew to Hong

74
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 1: Kong because there's no extradition treaty. Right. Well, the the

75
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 1: interesting thing for me here is the the intersection of

76
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: the protections that are supposed to be in place for whistleblowers, UM,

77
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 1: for conscientious objectors in that way and violating the law

78
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 1: when leaking this kind of classified top secret information. That intersection,

79
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 1: to me is what's interesting. And UM, I guess that

80
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 1: is the great legal debate that's occurring right now with

81
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 1: regards to them. Yeah. Now, before we follow up on, um,

82
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 1: what's what Edward Snowdon is doing now now defined by

83
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: the time of our recording, Let's talk just a little

84
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 1: bit about the whistle Blower series that we have done. Okay, Now,

85
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 1: we did a three part whistle Blower series where we

86
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 1: talked about a couple of things, right, Um, but this

87
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,600
Speaker 1: this series predates Snowdon, doesn't it. It does movent at

88
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 1: this show for a while. Um, all right, Yes, we

89
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 1: talked about why somebody would whistle blow the whistle quote unquote.

90
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 1: We talked about Ellsberg, right and the Pentagon papers, and

91
00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 1: we talked about how much the Internet has changed the

92
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 1: nature of this sort of disclosure, right, Yeah, how much

93
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 1: more easily it is now to get information out, to

94
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 1: disseminate it, and you can do it. Used to be,

95
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: back when we made that whistle Blowers episode, there were

96
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: several different avenues that you could take to securely and

97
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 1: anonymously send out information like that. Yeah, we thought there

98
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 1: were rather exactly h using tour network and other things

99
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 1: like that. But now those yeah, like you said, those

100
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,920
Speaker 1: those protections for um anonymity don't seem to exist anymore.

101
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 1: They've been routed out right, you can never be impossible

102
00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 1: to trace on the Internet. You can be at best

103
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,600
Speaker 1: very difficult or inconvenient to trace. UM. However, as we

104
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 1: found out later, uh, the quote unquote conspiracy theories about

105
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: some orwelly in government monitoring as much as possible. Turns

106
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 1: out that's completely true. Completely that happened. And UM, as

107
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, which makes me think we'll re examine whistle

108
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 1: blowing in the future. But I had, um some questions

109
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 1: just to ask you, purely speculative. All right, sure, what

110
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,600
Speaker 1: do you think is gonna happen, Edward Snowden? You think

111
00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: we'll ever see the States again? Um? As a freeman. Unfortunately,

112
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,000
Speaker 1: I don't think so. He was quoted and saying he

113
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 1: doesn't think I'll ever see home again. UM, and he

114
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: knows better than I do. UM. It just seems that

115
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,359
Speaker 1: that's the direction we're heading in right now. UM. Anyone

116
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 1: who is going to take this kind of action for

117
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 1: whatever reason, it's they're either going to be prosecuted heavily

118
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,360
Speaker 1: and end up in jail for the rest of their lives.

119
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,600
Speaker 1: So even even if he did see home in the US,

120
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,240
Speaker 1: he would probably be in the jail cell somewhere. So Okay.

121
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 1: So another question then would be what do you think

122
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: is going to happen to him? Because right now as

123
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: we record this, he's living in Moscow. He was living

124
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: in an airport hotel for months and then he now

125
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 1: is living in nondisclosed location in Moscow. He saved up

126
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 1: some money, he's running out of money. UM, I don't

127
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,560
Speaker 1: know who would hire him. His set of skills is

128
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 1: probably compromised. Well, it seems perhaps he could work for

129
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe some kind of news organization because

130
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: he's shown to give a good interview. Uh. He seems

131
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: to be good at collecting information, which is essentially what

132
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 1: a journalist journalist does, and I think I did hear

133
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 1: about him working for a news agency over there. There

134
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 1: were rumors of it at least back during the recording

135
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 1: of this. UM. I don't know. I could see him

136
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: thriving and doing that kind of thing. That The problem is,

137
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,240
Speaker 1: he's he's going to be having to watch his back

138
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life and that's a that's

139
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: a scary way to live. Yeah, I imagine so, and

140
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 1: only time will tell with this. UM. The the last

141
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 1: question I have for you, Okay, what do you think

142
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 1: is the future of whistle blowing, I think it's gonna

143
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: be huge. I think it's gonna happen more and more.

144
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,319
Speaker 1: It's gonna they're gonna be people posting on their Facebook's

145
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 1: um about things like whistle blowing that way, because I think, well,

146
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 1: it really depends on where we move from here, right,

147
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 1: And I know fis a court just didn't they just

148
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 1: re up on the n s A spying and giving

149
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 1: more powers. Um, So that's good and bad, right, and um,

150
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,839
Speaker 1: the way the way social networking is working, it's thriving

151
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 1: and continuing to grow. Um. I think there's gonna be

152
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: a clash, a cultural clash between the citizenry and the

153
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,559
Speaker 1: government because of things like this, And there're gonna be

154
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people that end up going to jail.

155
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 1: That's my that's my psychic reading for the day. Well,

156
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,640
Speaker 1: it's the if we're talking about the United States, we

157
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: already put a lot of people in jail. Yeah, I

158
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 1: think they're gonna be a lot of um, let's say,

159
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 1: middle class technology people going to jail very soon. Well,

160
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 1: I think we go far enough in the future on

161
00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,200
Speaker 1: this trajectory, everyone will be in jail. Everything person will

162
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 1: be in jail will be given your striped pant suit

163
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,840
Speaker 1: when you enter the airport. Um, I'm kidding hopefully, But

164
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 1: I think that um Snooda makes a good point with

165
00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 1: whistle blowing when he said as that he believes the

166
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,480
Speaker 1: reaction to the stuff that he's leaked and that he

167
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 1: continues to leak via Glenn Greenwald is essentially not going

168
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 1: to change things for people, because we know people are

169
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,640
Speaker 1: risk adverse. And I love what you're saying about the media,

170
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,520
Speaker 1: but we should also consider that access to this kind

171
00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: of media could just doesn't necessarily mean people will be

172
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 1: these well informed bastions of principled action. Um, if they

173
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 1: think that's the right thing to do, of course they'll

174
00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: they'll either side with or against this kind of whistle

175
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 1: blowing stuff. But we have to also think that the

176
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: propagation of massive media stimulation has affected human psychology as

177
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 1: much as we are as changed by the technology as

178
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 1: the technology is changed by us. Certainly so the kind

179
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,439
Speaker 1: of person who is now in and data with information

180
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day is um a lot less

181
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 1: likely to focus on one issue and pay attention. I

182
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,839
Speaker 1: can see this, but but I do think that with

183
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,680
Speaker 1: the way inequality is increasing such a rapid rate, especially

184
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,040
Speaker 1: in this country, but really worldwide. There are more and

185
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 1: more people that are not getting compensated. Let's say, as

186
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 1: well as they feel they should be people that have

187
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 1: Those people have access to certain information, and if there

188
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 1: is anything going on with regards to that inequality, say

189
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,680
Speaker 1: something that's maybe a little nefarious. Um, maybe those people

190
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,560
Speaker 1: will have the incentive to, you know, say screw it,

191
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leak this information now because they feel they're

192
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,080
Speaker 1: being treated unequally. I could see that increasing. Yeah, I

193
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 1: see what you're saying, and it's it's tough to guess

194
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,600
Speaker 1: with that. Um. For the record, I do agree with you.

195
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 1: I do think we'll see more leaks from various sources

196
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: in the future. I think the big question is what then?

197
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 1: You know, what ones then do somebody just retweet it?

198
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 1: You know, it gets retweeted a lot of pillars of

199
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 1: civilization crumble. Um. I don't know. But that is our episode.

200
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,199
Speaker 1: If you'd like to learn more about whistle blowing, please

201
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 1: check out our three part series on this, which, again,

202
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: as we said earlier, we made before Edward Snowden hit

203
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,359
Speaker 1: the radar. You guys, we didn't ignore it and um,

204
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,439
Speaker 1: you can tell us what you think about the future

205
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: of whistle blowing by hitting us up on Facebook, hitting

206
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: us up on Twitter. We're on YouTube, we have our

207
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: own network of online shows on the thing called test

208
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,200
Speaker 1: tube dot com. And if you're not a social media guy,

209
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 1: you can always just send us an email directly, right, Matt,

210
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: that's right. Then you can send us an email to

211
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:51,320
Speaker 1: conspiracy at Discovery dot com from one on this topic,

212
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 1: another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com slash conspiracy stuff.

213
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: You can also get in touch on Twitter at the

214
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 1: handle conspiracy stuff.