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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Today we

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Speaker 1: are wrapping up our two parter on Cohen's Hell Pro

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Speaker 1: including it's targeting of so called black nationalist slash hate

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Speaker 1: groups UM and a targeting of a very vaguely defined

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Speaker 1: movement known as the New Left. To briefly recap from

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Speaker 1: part one, which is highly recommended before listening to this

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Speaker 1: because it includes a lot of context and overview, But

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Speaker 1: just as a quick recap, we're gonna quote from the

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Speaker 1: Church Report, which followed more than a year of Senate

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Speaker 1: Committee hearings into all this quote, the origins of Cohen's

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Speaker 1: Hell pro demonstrate that the Bureau adopted extra legal methods

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Speaker 1: to counter perceived threats to national security and public order

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Speaker 1: because the ordinary legal processes were believed to be insufficient

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Speaker 1: to do the job. In essence, the Bureau took the

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Speaker 1: law into its own hands, conducting a sophisticated vigilante operation

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Speaker 1: against domestic enemies. Whether those targets were really enemies, though,

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Speaker 1: that is a different question. The report went on to say,

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Speaker 1: quote the choice of individuals and organizations to be neutralized

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Speaker 1: and disrupted ranged from the violent elements of the Black

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Speaker 1: Panther Party to Martin Luther King Jr. Who the Bureau

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Speaker 1: concedes was an advocate of non violence, from the Communist

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Speaker 1: Party to the Ku Klux Klan, from the advocates of

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Speaker 1: violent revolutions such as the Weatherman, to the supporters of

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Speaker 1: peaceful social change, including the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and

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Speaker 1: the Inter University Committee for Debate on Foreign Policy. Just

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Speaker 1: a heads up in this episode, there are going to

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Speaker 1: be some discussions of suicide and also police violence. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, the FBI started co Intel pro Black

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Speaker 1: Nationalist hate groups. For the most part, targeting of civil

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Speaker 1: rights groups that had been carried out under co Intel

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Speaker 1: pro CPUSA, which we talked about last time, rolled up

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Speaker 1: under this newly established program. In the words of the

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Speaker 1: program supervisor, the targeted groups were selected because they were

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Speaker 1: believed to be violent or because of their quote radical

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Speaker 1: or revolutionary rhetoric and actions. On March four, FBI Director

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Speaker 1: j Edgar Hoover sent a memo to be routed through

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Speaker 1: forty one FBI field offices. This memo was called counterintelligence program,

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Speaker 1: black nationalist hate groups, racial intelligence. And this is a

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Speaker 1: little bit long, but it's so illustrative of what the

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Speaker 1: FBI was doing here and more generally, what Hoover's mindset

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Speaker 1: was across the other co intel pros. We're going to

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Speaker 1: read a chunk of it. So it began quote goals

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Speaker 1: for maximum effectiveness of the counterintelligence program and to prevent

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Speaker 1: wasted effort. Long range goals are being set. Number one,

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Speaker 1: prevent the coalition of militant black nationalist groups. In unity,

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Speaker 1: there is strength, a truism that is no less valid

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Speaker 1: for all its triteness. An effective coalition of black nationalist

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Speaker 1: groups might be the first step toward a real mau

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Speaker 1: Mau in America, the beginning of a true Black revolution. So,

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Speaker 1: for context, mau Mau is a reference to the Mau

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Speaker 1: Mao movement and uprising in Kenya, which advocated a violent

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Speaker 1: overthrow of British colonial rule. This went on to prevent

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Speaker 1: the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify

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Speaker 1: the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been

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Speaker 1: such a messiah. He is the martyr of the movement today.

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King stokely. Carmichael and Elijah Mohammed all aspire

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Speaker 1: to this position. Elijah Mohammed is less of a threat

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Speaker 1: because of his age, King could be a very real

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Speaker 1: contender for this position should he abandon his supposed quote

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Speaker 1: obedience to quote white liberal doctrines and at sees nonviolence

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Speaker 1: and embrace Black nationalism. Carmichael has the necessary charisma to

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Speaker 1: be a real threat in this way. Number three prevent

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Speaker 1: violence on the part of black nationalist groups. This is

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Speaker 1: of primary importance and is of course a goal of

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Speaker 1: our investigative activity. It should also be a goal of

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Speaker 1: the counter intelligence program to pinpoint potential troublemakers and neutralize

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Speaker 1: them before they exercise their potential for violence. Number four

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Speaker 1: prevent militant black nationalist groups and leaders from gaining respectability

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Speaker 1: by discrediting them to three separate segments of the community.

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Speaker 1: The goal of discrediting black nationalists must be handled tactically

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Speaker 1: in three ways. You must discredit those groups and individuals

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Speaker 1: to first, the responsible Negro community. Second, they must be

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Speaker 1: discredited to the white community. Both the responsible community and

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Speaker 1: to liberals who have vestiges of sympathy for militant black

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Speaker 1: nationalist Simply because they are negroes. Third, these groups must

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Speaker 1: be discredited in the eyes of Negro radicals the followers

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Speaker 1: of the movement. This last area requires entirely different tactics

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Speaker 1: from the first two. Publicity about violent tendencies and radical

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Speaker 1: statements merely enhances black nationalists to the last group. It

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Speaker 1: adds respectability in a different way. Number five. A final

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Speaker 1: goal should be to prevent the long range growth of

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Speaker 1: militant black organizations, especially among youths. Specific tactics to prevent

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Speaker 1: these groups from converting young people must be developed. This

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Speaker 1: memo went on to outline the primary targets of this

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Speaker 1: Cohen's help pro that everything we just read was going

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Speaker 1: to apply to These were the organizations that Hoover described

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Speaker 1: as the quote most violent and radical. It included the

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Speaker 1: Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference,

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Speaker 1: Revolutionary Action Movement, and the Nation of Islam. This is

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Speaker 1: an incredibly weird list. Snake has non violent right into

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Speaker 1: the name, like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Martin Luther

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Speaker 1: King Jr. Helped found this represents the whole spectrum of

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Speaker 1: from non violent direct action to revolutionary Black nationalism, and

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Speaker 1: the FBI even noted that in its view, some individual

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Speaker 1: members of the Nation of Islam had been involved in violence,

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Speaker 1: but the organization itself was not violent. It was being

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Speaker 1: targeted because of its separatism. Basically, the FBI grouped a

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Speaker 1: lot of different organizations with a wide range of objectives

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Speaker 1: and ideologies and tactics under this co intel pro that

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Speaker 1: was supposedly about black nationalism and hate groups. Some, as

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Speaker 1: Tracy just mentioned, were strictly pacifist, Some advocated gun ownership

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Speaker 1: or violent self defense, Some spoke in very theoretical terms

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Speaker 1: about the need for a revolution, and some of them

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Speaker 1: called for an actual armed uprising or other violence. All

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Speaker 1: very different ideologies, but still under this one umbrella. The

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Speaker 1: FBI classed them all together as violent and radical, viewing

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Speaker 1: virtually any organization calling for equal rights for black people

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Speaker 1: as potentially violent and as a consequence, as needing to

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Speaker 1: be disrupted. Yeah. Like, the thing that that these all

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Speaker 1: had in common was like black people say quality equality please,

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Speaker 1: or like demanding equality with very aggressive rhetoric and sometimes violence. Like,

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Speaker 1: that's what it all had in common. The FBI put

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Speaker 1: intense effort into discrediting and disrupting all these organizations and

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Speaker 1: other organizations that were not specifically named using all the

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Speaker 1: methods that we talked about in Part one. But about

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Speaker 1: a year after this Coin's Hell Pro was established, another

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Speaker 1: different organization rose to national prominence, and that was the

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Speaker 1: Black Panther Party, and this Coin's Hell Pro then pivoted

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Speaker 1: to shift almost exclusively on that. The Black Panther Party,

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Speaker 1: originally called the Black Panther Party for Self Defense, was

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Speaker 1: founded in Oakland, California, in nineteen sixty six by Huey

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Speaker 1: Newton and Bobby Seal. A lot of the Black Panthers

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Speaker 1: rhetoric was radical and revolutionary, arguing that the only way

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Speaker 1: black people could be truly free is if they were

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Speaker 1: able to govern their own affairs. When they were establishing

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Speaker 1: the party, Newton and Seal crafted a ten point program

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Speaker 1: which began, we want freedom, We want power to determine

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Speaker 1: the destiny of our black community. This ten point program

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Speaker 1: went on to call for full employment, an end to

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Speaker 1: quote the robbery by the capitalists of our black community,

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Speaker 1: decent housing, education, exemption from military service for black men,

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Speaker 1: an end to police brutality, freedom for black men who

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Speaker 1: were held in prisons and jails, and it ended quote

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Speaker 1: we want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice, and peace.

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Speaker 1: The Ten Point Plan elaborated on each of these points.

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Speaker 1: The eemption from military service stemmed from the United States

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Speaker 1: involvement in Vietnam and the idea that black people should

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Speaker 1: not be forced to serve in the military of a

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Speaker 1: nation that did not protect them. The idea behind the

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Speaker 1: release of incarcerated black men was that they had not

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Speaker 1: been given a fair and impartial trial, so their convictions

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Speaker 1: were not valid. As part of their work, the Black

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Speaker 1: Panthers started more than thirty community service programs known as

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Speaker 1: survival programs. These included things like free breakfast programs for

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Speaker 1: school children, a tuberculosis screening and treatment program, medical clinics,

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Speaker 1: ambulance services, legal aid, and education programs. The Black Panthers

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Speaker 1: also created a screening program for sickle cell disease that

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Speaker 1: later served as a template for the federal government's own

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Speaker 1: screening programs. Over time, a lot of these services were

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Speaker 1: expanded to include anyone who was oppressed, including poor white people.

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Speaker 1: The Black Panthers also showed up to support other marginalized

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Speaker 1: groups in their own activism. They are meant in two

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Speaker 1: different times in our Six Impossible episodes, from Sippins to

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Speaker 1: fish Ins, which focused on direct action demonstrations and similar protests.

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Speaker 1: In that episode, we talked about the Black Panthers support

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Speaker 1: of the fish In movement in the Pacific Northwest, and

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Speaker 1: they're providing meals to disabled activists who took over the

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Speaker 1: Department of Health, Education and Welfare office in San Francisco

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Speaker 1: during the Section five oh four protests. But today, the

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Speaker 1: first thing a lot of people, especially a lot of

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Speaker 1: white people, think of when someone says the Black Panthers

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Speaker 1: is guns and violence. The Black Panthers organized armed patrols

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Speaker 1: of black neighborhoods to protect residents from police brutality and

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Speaker 1: from gang violence. At one point, they staged an armed

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Speaker 1: takeover of the California State Legislature that was in response

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Speaker 1: to gun control legislation. As other examples outside of the

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Speaker 1: party's organized activities, Huie Newton was involved in a shootout

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Speaker 1: with police in nineteen sixty seven in which an officer

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Speaker 1: was killed. Bobby Seal was charged but not convicted, with

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Speaker 1: conspiracy to incite riots at the nineteen sixty eight Democratic

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Speaker 1: National Convention and of the murder of a nineteen year

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Speaker 1: old Black Panther who was suspected of being a police

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Speaker 1: informant in a memo back to headquarters. A California field

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Speaker 1: office described the Black Panthers as quote the most violence

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Speaker 1: prone organization of all the extremist groups now operating in

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Speaker 1: the United States, and that alleged that they were performing

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Speaker 1: quote not only verbal attacks but also physical attacks on police. Later,

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Speaker 1: j Edgar Hoover called the Black Panthers quote one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest threats to the nation's internal security. On November night,

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Speaker 1: several FBI field offices received a memo ordering them to

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Speaker 1: submit quote imaginative and hard hitting counter intelligence measures aimed

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Speaker 1: at crippling the BPP, of course, the Black Panther Party.

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Speaker 1: This directive was expanded to additional field offices in January

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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. Kellen's held pro black nationalist hate

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Speaker 1: groups soon focused almost entirely on the Black Panthers, rather

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Speaker 1: than on that collection of groups that we outlined earlier

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Speaker 1: in that nine eight memo of this co intell prose,

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Speaker 1: two documented actions, two hundred thirty three of them were

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Speaker 1: against the Black Panthers, using all those various techniques that

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Speaker 1: we described in Part one as examples, the FBI intentionally

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Speaker 1: undermined the Black Panthers public service programs, for example, by

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Speaker 1: sending fake, inflammatory membership materials to food pantries and other

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Speaker 1: organizations that were donating food for the breakfast programs. The

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Speaker 1: Bureau used disinformation to try to spark violent conflicts between

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Speaker 1: the Panthers an area street gangs, and to spark violent

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Speaker 1: conflicts between the Panthers and police to reinforce the idea

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Speaker 1: that the Black Panthers were just inherently violent. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty nine, the FBI became aware of a Black Panther

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Speaker 1: coloring book. The origins of this book are a little

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Speaker 1: bit marky, but I can find a Cambone, who was

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Speaker 1: then known as Mark Teamer, has taken credit for its creation,

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Speaker 1: and in interview he describes it as a history book.

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Speaker 1: It depicts slave owners, greedy store owners, and police all

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Speaker 1: as obese pigs with exaggerated lower tusks. While Cambone has

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Speaker 1: stressed that these pigs can be any color, which is

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Speaker 1: why it is a coloring book, they are generally interpreted

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Speaker 1: as representations of white people, and this book is full

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Speaker 1: of images of black people, adults and children, men and

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Speaker 1: women stabbing and shooting the pigs. Black Panther leadership felt

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Speaker 1: that the coloring book was inappropriate and ordered Cambone to

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Speaker 1: destroy it, but someone made copies, and after the FBI

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Speaker 1: obtained one, it made more copies and distributed them as

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Speaker 1: though the Black Panther Party had officially created this book

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Speaker 1: with the intent of distributing it to children. The FBI

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Speaker 1: has harassment of the Black Panthers also went beyond the

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Speaker 1: organization's membership and its programs. Jean Seeberg was an actress

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Speaker 1: who donated to the Black Panthers and support of their

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Speaker 1: breakfast programs. During her pregnancy, the FBI sent false tips

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Speaker 1: to news organizations alleging that the father of her baby

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Speaker 1: was a Black Panther. This, of course, was a huge scandal.

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Speaker 1: Seeberg tried to take her own life. As a result,

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Speaker 1: she went into labor prematurely and her baby died. According

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Speaker 1: to family members, she tried to take her own life

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Speaker 1: every year around the time of the baby's death, and

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Speaker 1: then she died in nineteen seventy nine. Her death was

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Speaker 1: ruled a suicide, although some of her families had suspicions

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Speaker 1: that there was foul play involved, and, perhaps most notoriously,

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Speaker 1: on December fourth, nineteen sixty nine, the FBI orchestrated a

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Speaker 1: raid that was carried out by Chicago police, who fired

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Speaker 1: between eighty two and ninety nine gunshots into an apartment

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Speaker 1: where several members of the Black Panther Party were sleeping.

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Speaker 1: Among other involvement, and FBI informant had provided police with

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Speaker 1: a floor plan of the apartment. Chicago Black Panther leaders

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Speaker 1: Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were killed and four other

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Speaker 1: people in the apartment were seriously injured. Police claimed that

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Speaker 1: this was a violent gunfight, with the Black Panthers being

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Speaker 1: the first to open fire, but an investigation revealed that

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Speaker 1: only one shot had been fired from inside the apartment,

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Speaker 1: most likely by Mark Clark after he had already been

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Speaker 1: fatally shot by police. According to Hampton's fiance, Debra Johnson,

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Speaker 1: who was in bed asleep with him when the shooting started,

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Speaker 1: an officer who came into the apartment after the shooting

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Speaker 1: stopped asked if Hampton was still alive. Another officer fired

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Speaker 1: two shots and said he's good and dead now. The

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Speaker 1: Black Panther Party dissolved in nineteen eight two, with co

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Speaker 1: intel probe being one of the many factors that contributed

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Speaker 1: to its end. Former members say it is unrelated to

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Speaker 1: the New Black Panther Party, which was founded in ninety

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Speaker 1: nine and is classified as a hate group by the

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Speaker 1: United States Commission on Civil Rights in the Southern Poverty

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Speaker 1: Law Center. Let's take a break. The last formal coincal

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Speaker 1: pro that was described in the Senate investigation reports we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about in a little bit was coincal

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Speaker 1: pro New Left, and that started in and of all

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Speaker 1: the formally named coincal pros, this was the most loosely focused.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, as we've discussed, most of them were

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Speaker 1: loosely focused. As we mentioned in part one, the FBI

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Speaker 1: didn't really even have a definition for what new Left meant.

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Speaker 1: The New Left supervisor, who was quoted in the Church

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Speaker 1: Committee report said quote, I cannot recall any document that

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Speaker 1: was written defining new Left is such. It is my

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Speaker 1: impression that the characterization of new Left groups, rather than

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Speaker 1: being defined at any specific time by document, it more

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Speaker 1: or less grew. It has never been strictly defined as

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Speaker 1: far as I know. It is more or less an attitude.

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Speaker 1: I would think that makes it sound almost like an

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Speaker 1: advertiser sound bite new Left. It's an attitude. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: incident that prompted the FBI to create this co Intel.

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Speaker 1: Pro was a student uprising at Columbia University in ninety

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Speaker 1: There was a lot involved in this protest, but its

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Speaker 1: most direct precursor was the university's decision to build a

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Speaker 1: new gym in Morningside Park. Even though the gym was

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Speaker 1: being planned for public land, its facilities would mostly be

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Speaker 1: for use only by the university and not by the public.

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Speaker 1: To add to that frustration, this was part of an

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Speaker 1: ongoing pattern of the university's expansion into Harlem, which was

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Speaker 1: pushing the neighborhoods predominantly black residents out of their homes

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Speaker 1: in order to build facilities that they were not going

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Speaker 1: to be allowed to access. So the resulting protest was complicated,

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Speaker 1: Like we cannot get all into all of the nuances here,

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Speaker 1: but generally, the university's Student Afro American Society or s

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Speaker 1: a S started voicing their own and the community's objections

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Speaker 1: to this gym, and then the school's chapter of the

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Speaker 1: Students for a Democratic Society or SDS, which was predominantly white,

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Speaker 1: saw this as an opportunity for a larger protest that

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Speaker 1: would also focus on the university's involvement with the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: Members of the s a S felt like they were

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Speaker 1: being talked over and that the SDS was taking the

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Speaker 1: protests in an entirely different direction. And the end, the

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Speaker 1: Student Afro American Society took over Hamilton's Hall and the

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Speaker 1: Students for a Democratic Society took over other buildings on

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Speaker 1: campus and took the Dean hostage. There were more than

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Speaker 1: a thousand demonstrators who took part in this campus shutdown

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Speaker 1: that lasted for a week. At the university's request, the

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Speaker 1: New York Police Department began clearing the demonstrators on April nine.

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Speaker 1: Black demonstrators who had taken over Hamilton's Hall left peacefully,

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Speaker 1: but as more than one thousand police moved into the

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Speaker 1: other building, some of the other demonstrators verbally and physically resisted,

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Speaker 1: including by throwing things like shoes, bathroom tiles, and books

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Speaker 1: at officers. Police forcibly removed people, beating some of the

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Speaker 1: resisting students and in some cases bystanders with night sticks.

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Speaker 1: Others were trampled. In the end, one hundred thirty two students,

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Speaker 1: four faculty members, and twelve police officers were injured. So

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Speaker 1: co incal pro New Left was motivated by the FBI's

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Speaker 1: frustrations that the university had not brought in police earlier,

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Speaker 1: and also by a sense that these types of protests

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Speaker 1: should not be permitted to happen in the first place.

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Speaker 1: The directives for coincal pro New Left were distributed by

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Speaker 1: a memo in May of nineteen eight, and as described

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Speaker 1: in the Church Report, agents were to gather information on

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Speaker 1: this is all a quote. One false allegations of police

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Speaker 1: brutality to quote, counter the widespread charges of police brutality

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Speaker 1: that invariably arise following student police encounters. Two immorality depicting

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Speaker 1: the quote scurless and depraved nature of many of the characters, activities, habits,

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Speaker 1: and living conditions representative of New Left adherents. And three

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Speaker 1: action by college administrators to quote to show the value

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Speaker 1: of college administrators and school officials taking a firm stand

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Speaker 1: and pointing out quote whether and to what extent faculty

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Speaker 1: members rendered aid and encouragement. Point to sounds like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the other counterintelligence efforts we've talked about in

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Speaker 1: co intel pros, but otherwise in the FBI's view, the

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Speaker 1: use of force against demonstrators was warranted and if demonstrators

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Speaker 1: were injured in the process, they deserved it. In night,

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Speaker 1: both the FBI and the NYPD viewed the amount of

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Speaker 1: force used at Columbia as appropriate and restrained. No tear

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Speaker 1: gas was used, no one was shot, and the injuries

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Speaker 1: sustained by students and faculty were minor enough that the

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Speaker 1: who had to go to the hospital were treated and released.

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Speaker 1: That's just such such a weird bar, to such a

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Speaker 1: weird bar of whether their use was appropriate. The use

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Speaker 1: of forces appropriate was like, well, okay, nobody like died,

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Speaker 1: was kind of the tone of it. However, the FBI

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Speaker 1: also had a similar interpretation in cases of police brutality

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Speaker 1: that we're far more clearly egregious. For example, after riots

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Speaker 1: broke out during the nine Democratic National Convention in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: a memo from FBI headquarters to the Chicago Field Office

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Speaker 1: read quote, once again, the liberal press and the bleeding

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Speaker 1: hearts and the forces on the left are taking advantage

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Speaker 1: of the situation in Chicago surrounding the Democratic National Convention

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Speaker 1: to attack the police and organized law enforcement agencies. We

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Speaker 1: should be mindful of this situation and develop all possible

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Speaker 1: evidence to expose this activity and to refute these false allegations. Conversely,

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Speaker 1: the Walker Report, which was prepared for the National Commission

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Speaker 1: on the Call Is in Prevention of Violence, concluded that

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Speaker 1: there really was police wrongdoing a portion of it read quote.

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Speaker 1: Demonstrators attacked too, and they posed difficult problems for police

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Speaker 1: as they persisted in marching through the streets, blocking traffic

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Speaker 1: and intersections. But it was the police who forced them

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Speaker 1: out of the park and into the neighborhood. And on

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Speaker 1: the part of the police, there was enough wild club swinging,

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Speaker 1: enough cries of hatred, enough gratuitous beating to make the

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Speaker 1: conclusion inescapable that individual policemen, and lots of them, committed

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Speaker 1: violent acts far in excess of the requisite force for

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Speaker 1: crowd dispersal or arrests. To read dispassionately the hundreds of

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Speaker 1: statements describing at firsthand the events of Sunday and Monday

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Speaker 1: nights is to become convinced of the presence of what

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Speaker 1: can only be called a police riot. So while coen

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Speaker 1: falpro New Left was ostensibly about targeting this very vaguely

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Speaker 1: defined collection of left wing demonstrators as being a threat

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Speaker 1: to national security, it also paired up with this sense

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Speaker 1: of a much needed law enforcement crackdown that was justified

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Speaker 1: and necessary, and the need to protect police and other

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Speaker 1: law enforcement from false accusations of brutality. Aside from that,

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Speaker 1: it is difficult to talk about co intel Pro New

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Speaker 1: Left in a cohesive way. The counter intelligence program wound

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Speaker 1: up targeting virtually every anti war group in the US,

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Speaker 1: as well as student demonstrators who were demonstrating for just

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Speaker 1: about any reason. In the words of the Church Report quote,

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Speaker 1: none of the Bureau witnesses deposed believes the New Left

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Speaker 1: co intel Pro was generally effective, in part because of

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Speaker 1: the imprecise targeting. Also, the tone of a lot of

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Speaker 1: the FBI memos regarding the New Left sound almost baffled.

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Speaker 1: Agents really did not get these young people, most of

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Speaker 1: them white and affluent, a lot of them looking like

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Speaker 1: stereotypical hippies agitating against things like police brutality in the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War. Memos include kind of perplexed sounding references to

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Speaker 1: things like yoga and drugs. Participants in the organization's targeted

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00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: under co intel Pro. New Left also tended to be

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Speaker 1: simultaneously idealistic and cynical, so the Bureau had a harder

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Speaker 1: time finding informants or infiltrating organizations. For example, the main

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Speaker 1: phone at the national headquarters of Students for a Democratic

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Speaker 1: Society had a sign taped to it for more than

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Speaker 1: a year that said, in capital letters, this phone is tapped. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That is not to suggest that the other targeted organizations

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Speaker 1: were clueless, like they were just particularly cynical about the

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Speaker 1: Bureau by this point. The people who ultimately got the

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Speaker 1: ball rolling on exposing Cointel pro were members of anti

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Speaker 1: war and other activist movements that had been targeted during

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Speaker 1: these programs history, and we'll talk more about that after

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Speaker 1: a SPONSI break. Counterintelligence is still part of the FBI's work,

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Speaker 1: but in terms of these formally named Cohen cell prose,

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Speaker 1: those came to an end thanks to the work of

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Speaker 1: some regular people who pulled off a heist. When we

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Speaker 1: say regular people, they included a cab driver, a daycare

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Speaker 1: center director, a social worker, and a professor. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like one of those walk into a bar jokes. I know.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite part of these episodes for the number

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Speaker 1: of reasons, one of them being it's the most straightforward. Yeah.

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00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: Also it being just kind of a David and Goliath story,

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00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: so it have become clear to many of these groups

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Speaker 1: that the FBI was targeting them. Left wing activists viewed

404
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 1: the FBI with increasing suspicion, but nobody had evidence of

405
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Speaker 1: what they thought was happening. In nineteen seventy, a group

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Speaker 1: of anti war activists in the Philadelphia area decided to

407
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: do something about it. Anti war activists and college professor

408
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: or William C. David On came up with the idea.

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00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: John and Bonnie Raines, a married couple with small children,

410
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: were also involved. John had also been a freedom writer.

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Speaker 1: Others included Keith Forsyth, Robert Williamson, Judy Finegold, and two

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Speaker 1: people known by pseudonyms. One of those is Susan Smith

413
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Speaker 1: and the other is Ron Durst. A ninth participant dropped

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00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: out before the burglary actually took place. There was no

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Speaker 1: way they could break into the Philadelphia FBI office, which

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00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: had tight security, so they looked for other FBI field offices,

417
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Speaker 1: finding one nearby in Media, Pennsylvania. This office was housed

418
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Speaker 1: in an apartment building with a shared lobby space, which

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Speaker 1: was adjacent to the county courthouse. They cased this area.

420
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Bonnie rains posed as a student from Swarthmore College and

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Speaker 1: arranged a meeting under the guise of researching career opportunities

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00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: for women at the Bureau. They scheduled their burglary for

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Speaker 1: March eighth, n d one, the night of the Fight

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Speaker 1: of the Century between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frasier, reasoning

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00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: that most people would be watching the fight. After breaking in,

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00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: they removed thousands of files which were being stored in

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00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: regular file cabinets. After sorting through what they had stolen,

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00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: they mailed selections to newspapers and members of Congress, anonymously

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00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: calling themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI. Most

430
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: of the newspapers returned these documents to the Bureau, but

431
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: the Washington Post confirmed their authenticity and ran a front

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00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: page story on March ninete. It was titled Stolen Documents

433
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: described FBI surveillance activities. The article described surveillance of black

434
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: activist organizations and efforts to enhance existing paranoia. To quote

435
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: further served to get the point across that there is

436
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: an FBI agent behind every mailbox. More mail documents and

437
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: more articles followed. J Edgar Hoover officially canceled co Intel

438
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: pro on April seven, nineteen seventy one, citing security reasons,

439
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: although some co intel pro activities continued just without a

440
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: specific name attached, but it wasn't yet clear to anyone

441
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: outside the bureau what the term co intel pro meant

442
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: or what its scope was. J Edgar Hoover died on

443
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: May second, nineteen seventy two. He had been the director

444
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: of the FBI for forty eight years. In nineteen seventy

445
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: three and nineteen seventy four, NBC journalist Carl Stern filed

446
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: a series of requests under the Freedom of Information Act.

447
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: Those requests were repeatedly turned down until the documents were

448
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: finally released under a court order, and that is when

449
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: people finally started to get a sense of what co

450
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: intel pro meant and just how huge it was. In

451
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, Seymour Hirsch wrote a front page article

452
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: for The New York Times titled huge CIA operation reported

453
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: and US against anti war forces. This article reported that

454
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: the CIA was engaged in very Cohen's hell Pro like

455
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: operations against peace activists in the US, but the CIA

456
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: was not supposed to be operating domestically at all. These

457
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: news reports sparked outrage within the government and among the

458
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: general public. President Gerald Ford appointed the Rockefeller Commission to

459
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: investigate the CIA. The House established the Pike Committee to

460
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: investigate illegal activities by the CIA, the FBI, and the

461
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: n s A. The Pike Committee's report was never published.

462
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: On January one, nineteen seventy five, a resolution was introduced

463
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: in the Senate to create a committee to investigate federal

464
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: intelligence operations and determined quote the extent, if any, to

465
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: which illegal, improper, or unethical activities were engaged in by

466
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: any agency of the federal government. Congressional hearings went on

467
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: through five in nineteen seventy six. Senate committee was dubbed

468
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: the Church Committee, was headed by Senator Frank Church, a

469
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: Democrat from Ohio. The other committee members were selected to

470
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: represent a range of viewpoints and experience levels, with the

471
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: final group including six Democrats and five Republicans. A staff

472
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: of a hundred and fifty people went through the thousands

473
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: and thousands of pages of documents that were involved in

474
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: all this. We should take a moment to talk about

475
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: the FBI documentation. The FBI under J. Edgar Hoover was

476
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: intensely bureaucratic, with a relentless focus on documenting everything. Also,

477
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: most of co Intel pros existence took place before the

478
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act was passed in nineteen sixty seven.

479
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: All of it took place before the Privacy Act amendments

480
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: were added in nineteen seventy four, which gave citizens the

481
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: right to see the FBI's files about themselves. In other words,

482
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: the FBI was writing everything down, and it was not

483
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: doing so with the thought that anyone might ever read

484
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: any of this outside of the bureau. Whether the information

485
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: flow was going out to field offices and agents or

486
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: back into headquarters, nobody was disguising their meeting or intent.

487
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: Everyone was saying the quiet part loud and doing it

488
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: in writing. Also, FBI documents from the co intel pro

489
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: era are full of racist slurs and offensive stereotypes of

490
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: black people. After the FBI formally started co intel pro

491
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: black nationalist slash hate groups, agents talked candidly about how

492
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: if they didn't do a good enough job, the Bureau

493
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: was going to be forced to hire black agents. This

494
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: idea even came with its own slogan that mimicked the

495
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: accent of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, a rhyming couplet

496
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: that ended with the N word, and also as a

497
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: continuation of that note. There were only five black FBI

498
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: agents during most of the co Intel pro era. They

499
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: had been hired as personal assistants or drivers for j.

500
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover. Then they had been given the title special

501
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: agent during World War Two so that they would not

502
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: be drafted. So back to the investigations. Most of the

503
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: hearings were behind closed doors, both to try to prevent

504
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: them from turning into a TV spectacle and also to

505
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: protect information about the US methods for conducting intelligence work.

506
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: Even so, the hearings were criticized for threatening US intelligence efforts,

507
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: and Senator Church was accused of using it to bolster

508
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: a presidential bid. While the Church Committee wanted to protect

509
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: legitimate US intelligence efforts, it also wanted the public to

510
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: have a chance to learn about what was going on,

511
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: and to that end, the committee held public hearings in

512
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 1: September and October of nine. These hearings were focused on

513
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: specific areas of misconduct. Has included information about a biological

514
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: agents program run by the CIA, a domestic surveillance program

515
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: from the White House, and the FBI's programs to disrupt

516
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement and the anti Vietnam War movement.

517
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: After one hundred twenty six full committee meetings, forty subcommittee meetings,

518
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 1: more than eight hundred witness interviews, and a review of

519
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: more than one hundred ten thousand documents, the Church Committee

520
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: issued a report that described quote a pattern of reckless

521
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: disregard of activities that threatened our constitutional system. And this

522
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: was not just unique to the FBI, but the FBI

523
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: is our focus here. The report went on to say, quote.

524
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: The abusive techniques used by the FBI and Cointel pro

525
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty six to nineteen seventy one included violations

526
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: of both federal and state statutes prohibiting mail fraud, wire fraud,

527
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: incitements of violence, sending obscene material through the mail, and extortion.

528
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: More fundamentally, the harassment of innocent citizens engaged in lawful

529
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: forms of political expression did serious injury to the First

530
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech and the right of

531
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: the people to assemble peaceably and to position the government

532
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: for redress of grievances. The report also made it clear

533
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: that the national security and violence prevention concerns were not

534
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: the FBI's only motivation. Quote. The unexpressed major premise of

535
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: the programs was that a law enforcement agency has the

536
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: duty to do whatever is necessary to combat perceived threats

537
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: to the existing social and political order. Eight percent of

538
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: the approved co intel pro proposals targeted speakers, teachers, writers,

539
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: or publications, meetings, and peaceful demonstrations, all of which were

540
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: just exercising a constitutional right to free speech. Operations tried

541
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: to stop lawful speakers from speaking, teachers from teaching, writers

542
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: from writing, and demonstrators from demonstrating. The Senate Committee made

543
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: nineties six recommendations to quote place intelligence activities within the

544
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: Constitutional Scheme for controlling government power. This included changes to

545
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: how the FBI was that included a ten year term

546
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: limit for the Director of the Bureau. It also included

547
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: recommendations for additional oversight within the bureau. Every counter intelligence

548
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: proposal had to be approved by headquarters, but outside the

549
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Bureau the programs were almost completely unknown. Specific elements of

550
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: co intel pro CPUSA and White Hate were both known

551
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 1: to various Attorneys General, presidential advisers, and Cabinet and committee members.

552
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: For example, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy authorized the bureau's

553
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: wire taps of Martin Luther King Jr. The Bureau also

554
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: notified multiple Attorneys General of various accomplishments and progress. Those

555
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: are their words against the Ku Klux Klan, without describing

556
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: the breadth of what had led to that progress. Even

557
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: with these two programs, though the full scope wasn't known

558
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: outside the bureau, and it appears that the other co

559
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: intel pros weren't known to anyone outside the FBI at all.

560
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: Efforts to bring in more over site of the bureau's

561
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: activities included the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of nineteen seventy eight.

562
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: The exposure of Cointelpro and the hearings that followed drastically

563
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: affected mainstream American perceptions of the FBI. According to Gallup polls,

564
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: the proportion of Americans with a highly favorable view of

565
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: the FBI dropped from eighty four percent in nineteen sixty

566
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: five to thirty seven in nineteen seventy five. At the

567
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: same time, no criminal convictions followed the investigations and the

568
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: Church report, even though that report detailed numerous instances of

569
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: criminal activity. As we said, the FBI is still engaged

570
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: in counter intelligence. In the years just after Cointel Pro

571
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: was disbanded, the FBI did extensive counter intelligence work against

572
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: the American Indian Movement and the Committee in Solidarity with

573
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: the People of El Salvador. This included a disinformation campaign

574
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: during the nineteen seventies three occupation of Wounded Knee, both

575
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: to discredit the American Indian Movement to the general public

576
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: and to try to create division within that occupation. Co

577
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: Intel pro has also made headlines at numerous points since

578
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: the mid seventies, comparing it to policies and programs that

579
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: have been introduced during multiple presidential administrations. This includes comparisons

580
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: to various aspects of the Patriot Act and the n

581
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: says warrantless surveillance programs in the two thousands. The general

582
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: focus on black liberation as somehow inherently threatening and violent

583
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: has also continued to be part of the FBI's rhetoric.

584
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 1: In eighteen, leaked documents revealed that the FBI had targeted

585
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: Black identity extremists as a major threat, with really similar

586
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: language about potential violence to what was used during co

587
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: Intel pro Quote. The FBI assesses it is very likely

588
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: black identity extremist b i E Perceptions of police brutality

589
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: against African Americans spurred an increase in premeditated retaliatory lethal

590
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: violence against law enforcement and will very likely serve as

591
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: justification for such violence. This was paired with criticisms that

592
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: the FBI and other federal agencies were ignoring credible threats

593
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: of white nationalist violence. Yeah, this is basically a very

594
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: similar protests to what has been going on in the

595
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: last few months. As we're recording this, which is on

596
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: July seven, with demonstrators basically saying please stop shooting unarmed

597
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: black people, and the FBI creating this this uh category

598
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: of black identity extremists led people to go that's not

599
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: a thing though. Made that up To circle back around

600
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: to the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI, none of

601
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: them were ever prosecuted in connection with this break in

602
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: and media Pennsylvania. It is possible that law enforcement believe

603
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: that the culprits went on to be involved with a

604
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: different group of anti Vietnam War activists who were known

605
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: as the Camden This group broke into the Camden, New

606
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: Jersey Draft Board office and they destroyed draft records there.

607
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: The Camden twenty eight were acquitted. Two of the Citizens

608
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: Commission to Investigate the FBI actually were involved in that.

609
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: So there's some speculation that law enforcement was like, well,

610
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: they've already been tried and acquitted of this other thing.

611
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: We probably have no chance. Regardless, though several members of

612
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI came forward in

613
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: their story is told in the book The Burglary The

614
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: Discovery of Jed your Hoover's Secret FBI by Betty Medsker,

615
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: who also wrote that front page Washington Post story that

616
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier on. I have not read that book,

617
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: but I have watched the documentary N One, which also

618
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: tells that story's cotel pro I know it was a lot.

619
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: Uh D have listener mail to take us out, hopefully

620
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: on a peppyard No man. It kind of is um.

621
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: This is an email from Allison, I wrote back to Alison,

622
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: but I thought other people might also find it helpful.

623
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: Allison was writing about the behind the scenes where Holly

624
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: and I talked about encountering racism out in the world

625
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: and whether we were prepared to counter it, and so

626
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: Allison wrote high on today is behind the scenes, Mini Tracy.

627
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: I heard you say you have a response at the

628
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: ready for when you hear someone say something racist. I'd

629
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: love to hear what you would say, or at least

630
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: in generalization, because I'm terrible with on the spot responses

631
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: and terribly regret and think back on my lack of

632
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: response or retort. I'd love to hear your at the

633
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: ready so I might be able to have it in

634
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: mind and practice, so I can be ready if or

635
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: when that should arise in the future. I hope and

636
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: wish it would never happen and I'd never have to

637
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: hear anything as such. It's just horrible. I love what

638
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: you both do and never miss an episode. Thanks very much, Allison.

639
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: So a thing that I am prepared to say, Like,

640
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: let's say I'm at the grocery store and the line

641
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,959
Speaker 1: is moving really slowly, which it probably is right now,

642
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: and somebody behind me implies that it's because the person

643
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: running the cash register is incompetent because of their race.

644
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: I might say, I hope you're not saying that to

645
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: me because you think I agree with you. I first

646
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: heard that on a podcast. I'm pretty sure it was

647
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: on an episode of Politically Reactive towards the end of

648
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: its run, but I'm not actually sure. And like that

649
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: is when I want to make it clear to that

650
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: person that that's not acceptable the thing that they just said.

651
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 1: But I'm also like not wanting to start a fight

652
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 1: with that person that's a stranger in public. UM. If

653
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm talking to a family member and the family member

654
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: says something that is is racist on some level, I

655
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: might say, I don't understand what you mean by that?

656
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: Could you explain it to me? Um? And then a

657
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: lot of times that, like, as a person is talking,

658
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: they will hear the words they are saying. UM. A

659
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: good resource I I have found is if you google

660
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: responding to Everyday Bigotry, the first or second result should

661
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: be a pamphlet that was published by the Southern Poverty

662
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: Law Center that combines a lot of like real world,

663
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: anonymous examples of when people have encountered bigotry in their

664
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: everyday lives and like practical responses to that. UM. I

665
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: like that it's a publication that's been around for a while,

666
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't cover every conceivable thing, and it is based

667
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: on people's personal experiences. UM. But if you're like I

668
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what I should say when something happens,

669
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,959
Speaker 1: like that can be a good starting point for folks. UM.

670
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: So you're so much more thoughtful because I can read

671
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: all of that, but in the moment, what I say

672
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: is you're a racist expletive, as probably evidenced by my

673
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: story about where I wanted to punch a stranger in public.

674
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: So um yeah, uh yeah, I And and that that

675
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: applies to family members as well. Somebody tweeted at us

676
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: about that story that you had told about being in

677
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: the cab and and basically that person, who I think

678
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: was was from Ireland, um basically said that that should

679
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: have been your response. Um So anyway, I mean, even

680
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: even as we talked about in that behind the scenes episode,

681
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: like you can be prepared and still freeze up in

682
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: the moment. It happens sometimes. Um, but I the first

683
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: time I read that particular publication, I was like, I

684
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: feel like I am more prepared now to talk about things.

685
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: So if you'd like to write to us about this

686
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: or any other podcast, write History Podcast at iHeart radio

687
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: dot com. We're also all over social media at miss

688
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,479
Speaker 1: in History, and if you want to subscribe to our show,

689
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: we're on the iHeart radio app and Apple podcasts and

690
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: anywhere else you get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in

691
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: History Class is a production of I Heart Radio. For

692
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts, from I heart Radio, visit the I heart

693
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

694
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: favorite shows. H