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Speaker 2: The Ukraine risks losing all of the Russian lands it
Speaker 2: seized in just a month's time. We're talking about the
Speaker 2: Kursk region, of course, where Ukrainian troops are facing off
Speaker 2: with not only Russian forces but North Korean troops, bumping
Speaker 2: into some twelve thousand North Korean troops in Kersk. Melinda Herring,
Speaker 2: of course, is an expert on all of this, and
Speaker 2: since the beginning of the war, has spent quite a
Speaker 2: bit of time with us here on Bloomberg TV and radio,
Speaker 2: helping us understand the cross currents in Ukraine and what
Speaker 2: might come next. Senior fellow with the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center, Melinda,
Speaker 2: it is great to see you. We know that Russia
Speaker 2: is using cold as a weapon. We saw the Christmas
Speaker 2: Day attacks, but this story coming out of Kursk is
Speaker 2: certainly one for concern. If it's Ukraine looking for a
Speaker 2: strengthened hand at the negotiating table.
Speaker 3: What is really going on on the.
Speaker 4: Ground, Hey, Joe.
Speaker 5: The Russians have decided that they want to push Ukraine
Speaker 5: out of Kursk before Trump is inaugurated on January twentieth,
Speaker 5: So we're seeing a big push. I don't think that
Speaker 5: this is shocking or unexpected, but the Ukrainians have held
Speaker 5: this territory since August, and Vladimir Putin ignored it for
Speaker 5: a while and then he decided enough with it, and
Speaker 5: they brought in the North Korean troops to try to
Speaker 5: push the Ukrainians out. So that's what we're seeing right now.
Speaker 2: Well, there are a lot of challenges here, as I
Speaker 2: mentioned already.
Speaker 3: You've got the weather.
Speaker 2: We know about the equipment challenges, but then there's manpower
Speaker 2: as well, Melinda, and I wonder what the greatest need
Speaker 2: for Ukraine is as we head into the rest of
Speaker 2: this cold season.
Speaker 5: So I think it's important to back up because a
Speaker 5: year ago you and I were talking about ammunition shortages,
Speaker 5: and the ammunition shortages a year ago last Christmas were
Speaker 5: eight to one, seven to one, five to one, depending
Speaker 5: where you were on the front line. That was Russian
Speaker 5: to Ukrainian. The Ukrainians were desperately short of one to
Speaker 5: fifty five millimeters shells. They didn't have enough. It was
Speaker 5: a big panic. It was a big sos. Fast forward
Speaker 5: to where we are now. There is parody Joe with
Speaker 5: Ammo on the front line today, and there's parody with
Speaker 5: attack drones. So that's pretty remarkable and I think it's
Speaker 5: worth acknowledging. But there is a man power shortage on
Speaker 5: the Ukrainian side, and the Ukrainians sat too long on
Speaker 5: this problem, and they have a demographic crisis as well.
Speaker 5: So there's been a lot of pressure from the White
Speaker 5: House to force Ukraine to drop right now it's at
Speaker 5: twenty five years and above is when men have to
Speaker 5: serve in the White House, but in particular wants them
Speaker 5: to drop that age limit. But there's a big problem.
Speaker 5: If the Ukrainians drop that age limit, there's not going
Speaker 5: to be any more Ukrainians. Ukrainians tend to have children early,
Speaker 5: they get married early, have children early, and if they
Speaker 5: were to drop that age limit, it would really wreck
Speaker 5: havoc on the country.
Speaker 2: Well, when you consider the need for material, if we
Speaker 2: can just focus on that for a moment, aside from manpower.
Speaker 2: At Melinda, Elon Musk thinks that he's got an idea here.
Speaker 2: He says, America needs a large quantity of long range drones, air, surface,
Speaker 2: water and submarine and hypersonic missiles. Anything manned will die
Speaker 2: very fast in a drone war. Is that what we
Speaker 2: have learned in Ukraine.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, So that's one of the stories that definitely deserves
Speaker 5: more credit. And once the war in Ukraine is over,
Speaker 5: Ukraine is going to be the leading player around the
Speaker 5: world with naval drones and with long range drones and JOE.
Speaker 5: They have huge capacity. That's another story that's not getting
Speaker 5: enough play. So the Ukrainians in the last year have
Speaker 5: maxed their drone capacity internally in Ukraine, and they could
Speaker 5: increase it by a two thirds factor if they had
Speaker 5: more money. So it's really at this point they don't
Speaker 5: have a technology problem, they have a money problem. But
Speaker 5: let's look at drone Let's look at naval drones for
Speaker 5: a minute. So Ukraine doesn't have a navy JOE, and
Speaker 5: the Ukrainians with naval drones have managed to push back
Speaker 5: the Russian navy to the other side.
Speaker 6: Of Crimea because their naval.
Speaker 5: Drones are so effective, and they're pretty inexpensive. So yes,
Speaker 5: the world has a lot to learn from what Ukraine
Speaker 5: has learned with naval and long range drones. And also
Speaker 5: it's not just the drones, it's the iterative process. Ukraine
Speaker 5: is able to test new technology in a matter of days,
Speaker 5: make changes, and then put it on the battlefield, and
Speaker 5: that's remarkable.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about what comes next, of
Speaker 2: course I always do, and we're going to be talking
Speaker 2: in less than a month here about a new administration.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump says, of course that he can end this war.
Speaker 2: On day one, we spent some time with the Secretary
Speaker 2: of State Anthony Blincoln. My colleague David Gora asked him
Speaker 2: about Vladimir Putin's motivations, his intentions ahead of that moment.
Speaker 7: Here's what he said, in his mind is the recreation
Speaker 7: of a greater Russia. And you don't have to believe.
Speaker 1: Me, just read what he said.
Speaker 3: He's been very clear about it. He's failed in Ukraine.
Speaker 7: That proposition that he could erase Ukraine from the map
Speaker 7: subsume it into Russia has failed. And that's the result
Speaker 7: of the incredible courage of the Ukrainian people. But it's
Speaker 7: also a result of the dozens of countries that we
Speaker 7: rallied in defense of Ukraine.
Speaker 2: So take what he just said, Melinda, and tell me
Speaker 2: how that meeting is going to go between Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: President Zelenski, and Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 5: So, Joe, I'm not going to be very polite today.
Speaker 5: I'm going to just ignore everything that Blinkin just said.
Speaker 5: It's simply Cya. It's him trying to say that they
Speaker 5: did a fabulous job. They did a B plus job,
Speaker 5: maybe a B job, but they're over, They're done. I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: Let's focus on January twentieth. So January twentieth rolls around.
Speaker 5: Donald Trump is coming in and he says he's going
Speaker 5: to solve the conflict in twenty four hours. Everyone knows
Speaker 5: this is a campaign promise. His team has put together
Speaker 5: three different ideas to bring peace to Ukraine. None of
Speaker 5: them are very concrete. But the most concrete plan is
Speaker 5: from Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg. He's going to be the
Speaker 5: special envoy on Ukraine and Russia. And the Russians have
Speaker 5: already said, don't even bother coming to Russia if you
Speaker 5: come to Russia with.
Speaker 6: This peace plan.
Speaker 5: The answer is no. So it's going to be very hard, Joe.
Speaker 5: The real question is how do you get Vladimir Putin
Speaker 5: to come to the negotiating table. No one knows the
Speaker 5: answer to this question. Zelinsky, the President of Ukraine is willing,
Speaker 5: he wants to find a way to peace. But the
Speaker 5: problem is that Putin thinks he's winning. He's making progress
Speaker 5: in Kursk as we talked about, and he's making progress
Speaker 5: in the don Boss as well. So my big question
Speaker 5: for Donald Trump and his team is how do you
Speaker 5: compel Vladimir Putin to come to the negotiating table.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I know you don't want to deal
Speaker 2: with Anthony Blincoln here, but if what he said is
Speaker 2: correct in Putin's mind is the recreation of a greater Russia,
Speaker 2: how do you get out of the blocks in any negotiation.
Speaker 5: So the way that Kellogg says he's going to compel
Speaker 5: Putin to the table is that they will freeze NATO membership.
Speaker 5: That's sort of the sweetener to get the Russians there,
Speaker 5: and if the Ukrainians don't come, then they will freeze
Speaker 5: military assistance. But the Russians have already rejected that, so
Speaker 5: you know it's really we're going to have to have
Speaker 5: this conversation after January twentieth, and it's going to be
Speaker 5: a lot. I mean, no one knows Joe, to be
Speaker 5: really honest, no one knows what's going to compel Putin
Speaker 5: to agree. I think it's right that that Putin bet
Speaker 5: the House, he bet his legacy on destroying Ukraine. Blincoln
Speaker 5: is totally right there, and he can't just step away
Speaker 5: from what he's done, and his legacy depends on him
Speaker 5: destroying Ukraine. Absolutely spot on right. But the question is
Speaker 5: how do we get out of this?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow, I've only got a minute left here with Melinda Herring.
Speaker 2: But there is news today from yes this White House,
Speaker 2: John Kirby talking with reporters to say that another security
Speaker 2: package is being prepared for Kiev. Do you have a
Speaker 2: sense of what would be in it? Would it be
Speaker 2: anything that could help?
Speaker 5: So Joe, the White House has done a very good
Speaker 5: job of trying to move as much military equipment from
Speaker 5: our shelves to Kiev as possible as soon as possible.
Speaker 5: And the fear is that Donald Trump is going to
Speaker 5: ice all US assistants to Ukraine on January twentieth.
Speaker 6: We simply don't know.
Speaker 5: Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg, who's going to be the Special Envoy,
Speaker 5: has been very hawkish and when he comes on TV
Speaker 5: he sounds like me. But he's not the decision maker.
Speaker 5: Donald Trump is the decision maker. So this White House
Speaker 5: is moving as much equipment as possible. The Ukcredians need
Speaker 5: air defense. That that's the key to getting through the winter.
Speaker 2: Well, take it from someone who does this for a living.
Speaker 2: There's only one Melinda Herring, and it's great to see you, Melinda.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being with us year from
Speaker 2: the Atlantic Council as always, of course, senior Fellow the
Speaker 2: Atlanta Council's Eurasia Center.
Speaker 3: Melinda Herring on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken
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Speaker 2: Hatreanna Lowen Crun is posted up in Florida right now,
Speaker 2: following every move that's coming out of mar A Lago.
Speaker 2: Joining us live from Palm Beach. Adred it's great to
Speaker 2: see you. Hope you had a great holiday. How big
Speaker 2: of a deal is this going to be when everyone
Speaker 2: gets back to town.
Speaker 6: Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 8: I mean, not only is this the latest example of
Speaker 8: political discussion taking place on X which we're seeing, you know,
Speaker 8: quite a lot of an and truth, social and all
Speaker 8: of the technology being this platform, but it really does
Speaker 8: potentially set the stage for what could again be a
Speaker 8: rocky rollout of Trump's proposed you know, immigration, immigration plans,
Speaker 8: and keeping in mind that he's spent much of his
Speaker 8: campaign railing against illegal immigration a lot less clear on
Speaker 8: specific plans for legal immigration. The folks I've spoken to
Speaker 8: have maintained there's a big difference that Trump has said
Speaker 8: that he is for legal uh immigration, but the question
Speaker 8: is to what extent and how's he dressed and how
Speaker 8: so far has he addressed it specifically in the tech industry,
Speaker 8: which he really hasn't done much of. So you know,
Speaker 8: you have rama Swaman, you have must these are people
Speaker 8: who you know, have had benefited from something similar. Completely
Speaker 8: get odds with these far right people who are also
Speaker 8: supportive of Trump, and.
Speaker 6: So maybe we will see a rift.
Speaker 8: I mean, this is really, as you said, happening before
Speaker 8: our very eyes, but much bigger.
Speaker 6: Than the rich.
Speaker 8: I mean, this is a huge policy thing that we're
Speaker 8: going to see.
Speaker 2: Elon Musk tries to clarify with a sports analogy. He says,
Speaker 2: this is like bringing the Jokic's or Wemby's of the
Speaker 2: world to help your whole team, which is mostly American's
Speaker 2: exclamation point.
Speaker 3: Win the NBA.
Speaker 2: Who couldn't understand that, Adriana, He says, thinking of America
Speaker 2: as a pro sports team that's been winning for a
Speaker 2: long time and wants to keep winning is the right
Speaker 2: mental construct. I don't know if lawmakers are going to
Speaker 2: see it that way, or Trump's supporters for that matter,
Speaker 2: but enter Bill Gates apparently, who has had very strong
Speaker 2: feelings about this. The founder of Microsoft, has talked a
Speaker 2: lot about making it easier to get work visas and
Speaker 2: bring in foreign based talent to Silicon Valley. And there
Speaker 2: looks like there's news here, Adriana. You can tell me.
Speaker 2: I don't know if Donald Trump intended to post this
Speaker 2: on truth Social if you're with us. On Bloomberg TV,
Speaker 2: he writes, where are you When are you coming to
Speaker 2: the center of the universe? Mar A Lago Bill Gates
Speaker 2: has to come tonight, Heydrianna, is that the guest of
Speaker 2: honor this evening?
Speaker 8: I mean, we'll see, I for one, have accidentally sent
Speaker 8: things to the wrong people.
Speaker 6: This could just be an example of that.
Speaker 8: Perhaps it was supposed to be an individual message to someone.
Speaker 6: He does mention where are you? He mentions x, so
Speaker 6: perhaps a reference to Elon Musk. But of course the
Speaker 6: bigger question, you know, as will there be this meeting?
Speaker 8: And this of course would be just the latest in
Speaker 8: a line of tech executives and going back to what
Speaker 8: we were saying earlier, where there is now this division
Speaker 8: with regard to the immigration and there has been a
Speaker 8: similar rift on the same matter during the first administration
Speaker 8: when Trump had had limited that HEB program drawing, which
Speaker 8: drew the blowback from these tech people.
Speaker 6: Now we're seeing this kind of coming together.
Speaker 8: Trump has even said everyone wants to be my friend
Speaker 8: or something along those lines, pointing to the meetings with
Speaker 8: the Tim Cooks, you know, with the Zuckerberg's, and so
Speaker 8: you know, if he is the latest, that could again
Speaker 8: be the latest example of this coming together. But the
Speaker 8: immigration stuff doesn't pan out the way that some of
Speaker 8: these executives like musketc want it.
Speaker 6: Maybe we'll see another.
Speaker 8: Rift, but as of now, this is you know they're
Speaker 8: lining up a seaman mar Alago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, good thing. Nothing's complicated here. See this is
Speaker 2: why Hedrian has posted up in Palm Beach. We need
Speaker 2: somebody to be watching this on the daily. It's great
Speaker 2: to see you get back to Washington safe and sound.
Speaker 3: Hedriana Loone crime.
Speaker 2: It sounds like Bill Gates and Donald Trump may get
Speaker 2: together for a little koffefi at mar A Lago.
Speaker 3: I wonder what Hailey Stevens makes of this whole story.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to say the gentle woman from Michigan is
Speaker 2: with US Democratic Congresswoman Hailey Stevens. Great to see you, Congressman,
Speaker 2: and I hope you had a great Christmas, Happy Hanukah
Speaker 2: and the rest. Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio.
Speaker 2: I don't have to go through the whole story again
Speaker 2: for you here, I'm sure, but a conversation has been
Speaker 2: prompted over the US of work visas. I'm guessing as
Speaker 2: a Democrat you might see this as a positive development.
Speaker 2: Will h one Bs and will Dreamers be involved in
Speaker 2: any debate over border security in this new Congress.
Speaker 9: Well, I'll just say that as a science and tech
Speaker 9: policy evangelist, we welcome the conversation around h one bs
Speaker 9: and high skilled workers, and in fact, as a member
Speaker 9: of the Select Committee on China Competition that has been
Speaker 9: in place for the last two years, this is something
Speaker 9: that we heard over and over and over again from
Speaker 9: stakeholders Joe that we need to stable green cards to degrees,
Speaker 9: that we need a plan to attract and retain global
Speaker 9: talent in this country. Our laws are based off of
Speaker 9: last century. They are holding us back, and they are
Speaker 9: impeding our competitiveness. And look, I'd say that Elon Musk
Speaker 9: maybe knows a thing or two about it, given his
Speaker 9: immigration history, and given his employment base, and given frankly
Speaker 9: you know, the role that his companies are playing not
Speaker 9: just here in the United States of America, but but
Speaker 9: across the world, and so we need access to that talent.
Speaker 9: I think that could be very interesting. It maybe be
Speaker 9: a smart move of the Republican government majority if they
Speaker 9: could do something for high skilled workers. And of course,
Speaker 9: our dreamers who we care so much about, who've only
Speaker 9: known in an American life, who were born here, who
Speaker 9: are taxpayers, who are contributing to society, raising families. You
Speaker 9: know we want that parody as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, congress Woman is correct Elon Musk once held an
Speaker 2: H one B visa. But it does bring up the
Speaker 2: bigger picture here. And in the short time that we
Speaker 2: have to talk today, congress Woman, I'd like to ask
Speaker 2: you about your hopes or maybe your concerns about working
Speaker 2: with this Republican majority in the new Congress. Knowing that
Speaker 2: Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswami are going to be on
Speaker 2: the phone, maybe picture I'm on one shoulder for the
Speaker 2: speaker and Donald Trump on the other shoulder. Who's actually
Speaker 2: run on the show here? And how do Democrats find
Speaker 2: their posture in this Congress.
Speaker 4: Well, it's certainly a.
Speaker 9: New dynamic and Trump President elect Trump is the ultimate chameleon.
Speaker 9: This is certainly a different approach to governing that we
Speaker 9: saw during his first term, which frankly was a lot
Speaker 9: of governing by Twitter and a lot of chaos and confusion.
Speaker 9: Now it seemed like the oligarchs have come in some
Speaker 9: people though with business.
Speaker 6: Experience as well.
Speaker 9: And look, I'll campaign ferociously, but when it comes to governing,
Speaker 9: I want to find ways in which we can come together.
Speaker 9: I'm really hoping that we continue to look at strategic competition,
Speaker 9: that we look at innovation here in the automotive heartland
Speaker 9: where I am in Michigan. Our automakers are watching and
Speaker 9: they are global and they need access to the trade policies,
Speaker 9: the materials, the work force in order to succeed. We
Speaker 9: don't need disjointed policy and frankly, we need an outlook here.
Speaker 9: So I do plan to use the power of the
Speaker 9: pen and my abilities in the Congress to advocate for
Speaker 9: the regional economy that I'm so proud to represent the
Speaker 9: hard working men and women all across Michigan who are
Speaker 9: contributing to incredible outputs and who are competing against the
Speaker 9: likes of BYD. There are changes of foot in the
Speaker 9: auto industry. It is a very aggressive time. We don't
Speaker 9: need to start unnecessary trade wars at the expense of
Speaker 9: people's bottom line, and that's something that we're seeing here.
Speaker 6: So you know, we got a new.
Speaker 9: Dynamic on our hand. Obviously, I'm in a minority party
Speaker 9: in the House. It's a tight minority. I think they're
Speaker 9: going to need us on occasion, So I'm going to
Speaker 9: go for my scraps, and I'm going to make my points.
Speaker 2: I believe all of that, and I hope that you'll
Speaker 2: spend some time with us when you get back to town.
Speaker 3: Haley Stevens, it's great to see you. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2: In it advance the congresswoman, Democratic congresswoman from Michigan, Haley Stevens.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 2: With questions today in Washington, as we've been discussing here
Speaker 2: on the program about immigration reform. Yes, I said immigration reform,
Speaker 2: not just border security, with a big debate around H
Speaker 2: one B visas, the work visas that bring talent from
Speaker 2: other countries, foreign born talent to places like Silicon Valley
Speaker 2: to help develop what has become, of course, the greatest
Speaker 2: technology in the world. This is something Elon Musk knows
Speaker 2: a lot about, as he had an H one B
Speaker 2: visa at one point. He in the k Ramaswami of
Speaker 2: course partners in the DOGE having at it with Maga
Speaker 2: over the use of these visas. They both see a
Speaker 2: need for reform and an increase in their event bailability,
Speaker 2: which apparently is at odds with the MAGA world approach
Speaker 2: to border security. This is all going to have to
Speaker 2: be managed in the new Congress, which will be sworn
Speaker 2: in one week from today, with questions as well about sequencing.
Speaker 2: Do you do the Trump tax cuts first or do
Speaker 2: you attack all the border.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: One hasn't answer to that yet, at least a real
Speaker 2: answer that I've heard. Until ipso's got to work on this,
Speaker 2: Cliff Young has an answer, at least with regard to
Speaker 2: the American people. He is, of course the head of
Speaker 2: US Public Affairs at IPSOS and with us here at
Speaker 2: the table. Cliff, it's great to see you. Happy New
Speaker 2: Year in advance. I hope you had a great Christmas,
Speaker 2: thanks of the company. This is interesting priorities for Donald
Speaker 2: Trump in the first one hundred days. The biggest priority
Speaker 2: for everybody we've learned is inflation. But after that, it's
Speaker 2: pretty clear what voters want with regard to sequencing, and
Speaker 2: it's the border, right.
Speaker 10: Yeah, It's immigration.
Speaker 11: Immigration, immigration, especially among the Republican base and especially among
Speaker 11: the megabase that is their critical issue now, based upon history,
Speaker 11: based upon the empirical record, new administrations had between one
Speaker 11: hundred days and six months to get.
Speaker 10: Their agenda through. So I would expect the Trump.
Speaker 11: Administration to push forward as fast as possible policies related
Speaker 11: to immigration.
Speaker 2: Okay, does anything in this debate lead us to believe
Speaker 2: that it might turn out in policy. We've spent all
Speaker 2: last year talking about border security. The deal that was
Speaker 2: hammered out, the Lankford deal in the Senate was about
Speaker 2: border security. Nobody talked about immigration or dreamers. Now we're
Speaker 2: talking about all of it on the eve of this
Speaker 2: Congress opening.
Speaker 11: True, and the immigration issue is a fraud issue. It's
Speaker 11: complex and nuance and public opinions nuance on it. The
Speaker 11: vast majority of Americans are in favor of immigration, something
Speaker 11: like seventy to seventy five percent. However, that's legal immigration, yeah, right,
Speaker 11: And so the border issue becomes very important. Border policies
Speaker 11: become very important. They suggest a way forward when it
Speaker 11: comes to illegal immigration, a way to stop it. And
Speaker 11: I believe the Trump administration will have to have some
Speaker 11: sort of initiative or a series of initiatives relative to that.
Speaker 10: If they're going to speak to their.
Speaker 2: Base, talk to me about what else is on this list,
Speaker 2: because the question that we've been facing is when it
Speaker 2: comes to sequencing, you do the border first, you do.
Speaker 3: Trump tax cuts. Taxes are way down the list here
Speaker 3: at nine percent. What do you make of that?
Speaker 10: They're abstract for people?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 11: The taxes haven't been part of the debate for a
Speaker 11: while now. You could think of the eighties and the
Speaker 11: nineties when we all talk about middle class tax cuts.
Speaker 11: They haven't been Really it's about cost of living. That's
Speaker 11: why Trump won. He rode that wave in He has
Speaker 11: to do something relative to that. And then it's immigration, immigration, immigration.
Speaker 11: He really needs to throw a bone to the base,
Speaker 11: and I expect him to do that within the first
Speaker 11: six months.
Speaker 2: Americans want the next president to restore trust and institutions.
Speaker 3: You have found, but half are worried, Cliff about what.
Speaker 11: Well, the half that didn't vote for Trump, right, and
Speaker 11: so we have to understands very political in orientation in perspective.
Speaker 11: This is a typical data point that we find after
Speaker 11: every election. The vast majority of Americans want to come
Speaker 11: back together, want to unify. Whatever that happens or not's
Speaker 11: another question. But that at least is an aspiration at
Speaker 11: this point.
Speaker 2: That's interesting we talk about the other half because we
Speaker 2: keep hearing that there was a mandate.
Speaker 3: When you think.
Speaker 2: About the sort of the rhetoric that we've heard around
Speaker 2: this election, following the polling that you conducted over the
Speaker 2: course of what two years leading us to that point,
Speaker 2: how close to the truth is the analysis.
Speaker 10: Somewhere in the middle. Isn't the truth always in the middle?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 11: So, on the one hand, Trump definitely goes in with
Speaker 11: a mandate. He controls Congress. He obviously is headed to
Speaker 11: the White House. That's very important. That allows him to
Speaker 11: push forward an agenda in the short term. That is,
Speaker 11: once again in the first half of the year, that's
Speaker 11: when most things happen.
Speaker 10: But his win was minuscule, nothing more than.
Speaker 11: A percent or two at the national level, it's one
Speaker 11: point five now, nothing more than a point to two
Speaker 11: points in key swing states.
Speaker 2: So is closed nothing more than a seat in the
Speaker 2: House of Representative.
Speaker 10: There we go.
Speaker 3: It's a very really a mandate.
Speaker 10: It well, it depends how you define it.
Speaker 11: He has control, yes, a tenuous control of both the Congress,
Speaker 11: We're true, but both of the of the Senate and
Speaker 11: the House, and he and he obviously he has the
Speaker 11: White House.
Speaker 10: There's something there, right, he can work with that.
Speaker 2: An enormous amount done exactly, But to think if the
Speaker 2: wind blows they don't have a Republican majority in the
Speaker 2: House could be a problem.
Speaker 3: As we worked are we now.
Speaker 11: We're a divided country. We're a fifty to fifty country.
Speaker 11: That's where we are today. That's what this election showed.
Speaker 11: And I think that, you know, the point I would
Speaker 11: want to make is is that even though it's fifty
Speaker 11: to fifty public.
Speaker 10: Opinions nuanced, Americans are nuanced. Even on immigration.
Speaker 11: There's a continuum of what Americans think about it. They're
Speaker 11: not absolutists on everything. They believe immigration, on the one hand,
Speaker 11: is super important. They can see the importance of visas
Speaker 11: like H one B one about fifty percent. But obviously
Speaker 11: it's divided and polarized by whether you're blue or red.
Speaker 3: H ONEB is going to be a tough sell though.
Speaker 3: This is you know, this is jargon for.
Speaker 10: A lot right now.
Speaker 11: It's a bit of catnipt, negative catnip for the Republican base.
Speaker 10: But when it goes to the economic.
Speaker 11: Issues, when you frame it as such, Americans agree with
Speaker 11: it obviously.
Speaker 10: I think in the short term it sort of gunks up.
Speaker 11: The system a bit because they don't have a lot
Speaker 11: of time to implement ultimately their agenda.
Speaker 10: It's more of a distraction anything else.
Speaker 2: How about when it comes to mass deportation. You ran
Speaker 2: numbers on this, and even Donald Trump himself has indicated,
Speaker 2: as he did in an interview on NBC following the election,
Speaker 2: he's kind of worried about the way the optics might
Speaker 2: look here when the raids begin. Assuming that's how this
Speaker 2: is going to work. What do Americans think about this
Speaker 2: before it happens.
Speaker 10: It's very abstract right now. We have to understand then.
Speaker 11: So when you ask Americans straight up, more than fifty
Speaker 11: percent about fifty two, fifty three, fifty four depending on
Speaker 11: how you ask it, are in favor of master spor deportations.
Speaker 11: But then when you put sort of caveats there, we
Speaker 11: put conditions there, like splitting families or hurting the economy,
Speaker 11: hurting job generation, that support falls. In a general sense,
Speaker 11: it goes into the forties and the thirties. Republicans are stalwarts.
Speaker 11: They support it no matter what happens. But Trump is
Speaker 11: very right the optics on this could be very negative.
Speaker 11: You could imagine crying children being separated from their families.
Speaker 11: This would not play well, especially if you're trying to
Speaker 11: push through to gen in the short term. This could
Speaker 11: once again cause problems in doing that. Actually, ipsos it's
Speaker 11: one of the ballot questions we're cracking. Do you support
Speaker 11: or oppose the immigration policies of the Trump administration.
Speaker 10: We'll be looking at it.
Speaker 11: Very closely because it has I think little upside and
Speaker 11: a lot of downside.
Speaker 2: Inflation is the biggest concern, the biggest priority for Americans.
Speaker 2: If the Trump tax cuts combined with tariffs, assuming all
Speaker 2: of this happens, create a reflationary scenario, what's that going
Speaker 2: to mean for approval ratings for the new president?
Speaker 11: I would just add in closing up the border and
Speaker 11: causing you a problem on the economic side in terms
Speaker 11: of labor, Yeah, that could really undermine his position. Once again,
Speaker 11: I think the first one hundred days I'm looking at.
Speaker 11: Usually in the first six months new administrations have a
Speaker 11: mandate have pretty strong approval ratings, but any of these
Speaker 11: things can undermine it.
Speaker 2: Boy, we've got a lot to learn of the new
Speaker 2: year together. Think of the crazy stuff. You're going to
Speaker 2: be polling in twenty twenty five. You're writing these questions already.
Speaker 3: I'm guessing.
Speaker 10: Yeah, we're fucking already. It's going to be interesting.
Speaker 2: A nice reflection over the course of the holidays with
Speaker 2: Cliff Young, ipso's great to see you in. Happy new year,
Speaker 2: come back and see us in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 10: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: As always, another year of breat analysis with Cliff Young.
Speaker 2: Here on Bloomberg TV and radio.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Can
Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then
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Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: I'm joll Matthew in Washington, where we've also got our
Speaker 2: eyes here on natural gas prices. Sticking with Ukraine, European
Speaker 2: natural gas price is specifically up over four percent today
Speaker 2: after Vladimir Putin expressed doubts about a deal to maintain
Speaker 2: gas flows to Europe via Ukraine. He says it would
Speaker 2: be impossible to arrange a new transit contract before a
Speaker 2: year end, when the current agreement expires. Let's go to
Speaker 2: school right now with Bob McNally, who we learn from
Speaker 2: every time we talk with the president of Rapidan Energy Group.
Speaker 3: Bob, it's great to see you.
Speaker 2: I hope you had a great Christmas and thanks for
Speaker 2: coming back to talk to us on Bloomberg TV and radio.
Speaker 2: How important is this development today? Knowing how little natural
Speaker 2: gas we're talking about.
Speaker 4: Hi, it's pretty significant.
Speaker 12: The market was hoping to see that those flows resume,
Speaker 12: and Europe is having a more of a normal winter.
Speaker 12: It's cold, inventories have been drawn down, they've gotten lucky
Speaker 12: in the last winter, so you know, it's a return
Speaker 12: to normalcy and hiccups like this are unwelcome. And you
Speaker 12: also have the incoming head of the European Commission, the Polish.
Speaker 12: We'll have it for six months and they're going to
Speaker 12: prioritize tightening sanctions, including on on guests even further. So,
Speaker 12: you know, here we have a combination of geopolitics and
Speaker 12: market forces, which are you know, surprising here with normal
Speaker 12: weather to deliver a bit of a rude shock in
Speaker 12: the in the winter time here.
Speaker 2: What's your broad view then, Bob, as we head into
Speaker 2: the new year here and the Trump administration, which has
Speaker 2: vowed to cut energy prices by half. We've talked about
Speaker 2: the prospect here before, but there are other influences on prices.
Speaker 2: It's a global market, as we've already been discussing.
Speaker 4: It, sure is, Joe.
Speaker 12: You know, the president has control over certain things. He
Speaker 12: can and he will, with a stroke of a pen,
Speaker 12: ease the regulatory burden facing US energy and companies. He
Speaker 12: can impose tariffs that can impact energy. He can tighten
Speaker 12: sanctions on Iran. He has many powers and he will
Speaker 12: exercise them starting on day one, and all of them
Speaker 12: are important. Some of them would cause oil prices to
Speaker 12: go down, as we've discussed, some go up, But as
Speaker 12: you mentioned, the price of the oil is priced in
Speaker 12: a global market, with global supply and demand fundamentals and
Speaker 12: geopolitics driving that, and many of those forces out of
Speaker 12: the direct control of the president. So the president's going
Speaker 12: to rediscover he learned this, I think in his first term.
Speaker 12: There's certain things he can control, there's certain things he can't.
Speaker 12: But how much we produce in this country will be
Speaker 12: a function of the global price, more so, I think
Speaker 12: than any regulatory changes.
Speaker 2: Will see well, you mentioned an important word there, and
Speaker 2: that's geopolitics. To see the headline yesterday Israel directly striking
Speaker 2: the capital of Yemen following these repeated attacks by hooty
Speaker 2: rebels that have caused some pretty major disruptions in shipping
Speaker 2: in the region. That's a pretty good example of what
Speaker 2: can go wrong here. And I wonder how concerned you
Speaker 2: are about this escalating.
Speaker 4: We remain pretty concerned about that, Joe. As we've talked about.
Speaker 12: You know, Phase one post October seven was Gaza, Phase
Speaker 12: two was Hesbolat. Neither of those two regions, you know,
Speaker 12: threatened much oil. Now we're moving to Iran and the
Speaker 12: Uties in Yemen, and it's important after that latest strike,
Speaker 12: the UTIs threatened Saudi Arabia. That's very important because the Huties,
Speaker 12: remember they had lobbed missiles at Saudi Arabia and the
Speaker 12: UA in the past, but they've had a sort of
Speaker 12: a deal detent for the last couple of years. They
Speaker 12: warn it this continues, that deal is off, and as
Speaker 12: Israel goes after Iran, and as President Trump goes after Iran,
Speaker 12: now we're starting to involve the most important energy resource
Speaker 12: for both oil and LNG.
Speaker 2: Well, with what you know about the Trump National Security team,
Speaker 2: at least the names that have been mentioned, and I
Speaker 2: know we have to go through the confirmation process for
Speaker 2: several of them. Will this administration be more effective in
Speaker 2: managing these issues than the Biden White House?
Speaker 12: I think it will. It'll have a sharp change in direction.
Speaker 12: Just about everybody I'm aware of coming in on the
Speaker 12: NSC and the State Department for that matter, and Treasury
Speaker 12: are hawks when.
Speaker 4: It comes to Iran.
Speaker 12: They look back at the first Trump term and they
Speaker 12: see a success with the Iran sanctions policy. They look
Speaker 12: at Biden is that they say he threw that away.
Speaker 12: He allowed them to resume oil exports. Now they've got
Speaker 12: the money and they're helping Russia in Ukraine of all places.
Speaker 12: So they are more determined than ever and I think
Speaker 12: able to go back and get leverage on Iran by
Speaker 12: going after those exports. And I think China's already gotten
Speaker 12: the message and is already starting to pull back. They
Speaker 12: take most of that Iranian oil. They see the writing
Speaker 12: on the wall, and I think this incoming team will
Speaker 12: be effected early in imposing these sanctions on Iran.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at Triple a's national average for a gallon
Speaker 2: of unleaded three dollars three cents. That's a national number
Speaker 2: here on the twenty seventh of December. Bob, I don't
Speaker 2: mean to get too simple on you here, because I
Speaker 2: know you're a pretty sophisticated analyst when it comes to
Speaker 2: this stuff. But Donald Trump has essentially promised to turn
Speaker 2: that into a dollar fifty a gallon if he cuts
Speaker 2: prices by half.
Speaker 3: Is that possible?
Speaker 12: You know it's possible, but as we discussed last time,
Speaker 12: it would have bad side effects. The only two ways
Speaker 12: to get the oil price or gasoline price down to
Speaker 12: a dollar fifty that I'm aware of, would be to
Speaker 12: crash the economy into a catastrophic procession, and that would
Speaker 12: not be enjoyable. Or you call up Saudi Arabia and
Speaker 12: you give this and put every barrel on the market.
Speaker 12: I don't think they would do that. But as we discussed,
Speaker 12: even if he could and a dollar fifty a gallon,
Speaker 12: Joe US shale oil I E. Energy dominance dies. You
Speaker 12: cannot have a dollar fifty pump prices thriving shall oil
Speaker 12: sector period.
Speaker 4: End of story.
Speaker 2: People should know that you worked in the Bush administration,
Speaker 2: the W. Bush administration, in the first term as part
Speaker 2: of your very long resume, Bob. But one of the
Speaker 2: things you were tasked with doing was dealing with utilities,
Speaker 2: the electric grid. There's been a big conversation in Washington
Speaker 2: about renewing the grid, about enhancing the grid, about protecting
Speaker 2: the grid.
Speaker 3: Will this new Congress be the one to do it?
Speaker 4: You know? I hope.
Speaker 12: So in some ways the stars are aligning because certainly
Speaker 12: the oil and gas folks, the gas folks are very
Speaker 12: aware of the permitting challenges. They've wrestled with this for decades.
Speaker 12: In the way the Supreme Court has made life a
Speaker 12: little easier in undermining some of the bureaucratic crust that
Speaker 12: has developed.
Speaker 4: And the clean.
Speaker 12: Energy community, Joe, they realize you can't get solar and
Speaker 12: wind desployed at scale unless you can connect it to
Speaker 12: the grid.
Speaker 4: And now you have with AI. We want to get
Speaker 4: Duke's connected to the grid for AI.
Speaker 12: So in some ways you could have a coalition of
Speaker 12: the willing, if you will. However, Joe, we're still somewhat
Speaker 12: cautious at wrap it in about the odds of getting
Speaker 12: a bill done just due to partisanship in Washington.
Speaker 4: It's too bad. It became close last year.
Speaker 12: It's not a zero percent, but it's close to a jump.
Speaker 2: Ball bureaucratic crust. What a great term. Would also be
Speaker 2: a great band name. People should also know Bob is
Speaker 2: a world class drummer, and I hope you'll consider that right.
Speaker 2: That'd be a good punk rock bureaucratic crust. I think
Speaker 2: we're onto something, Bob. It's great to see you as always,
Speaker 2: Thank you, and happy New Year. In advance, come back
Speaker 2: and see us in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Epocarplay and then
Speaker 1: roud Oro with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 2: We start our conversation with our signature panel, Rick Davis,
Speaker 2: partner at Stone Court Capital, Republican strategist and Bloomberg Politics contributor,
Speaker 2: joined by Jeanie Shanzo, Senior Democracy Fellow with the Center
Speaker 2: for the Study of the Presidency and Congress are Democratic analyst.
Speaker 2: Great to have you both with us here on Friday
Speaker 2: as we think big thoughts ahead of next week. Genie,
Speaker 2: it's going to be an interesting moment for Democrats watching
Speaker 2: Mike Johnson, I guess be elected all over again or
Speaker 2: will he what's your thought today?
Speaker 13: Yeah, And Hakim Jeffries has been very clear this time around,
Speaker 13: Democrats are not going to come and save Mike Johnson.
Speaker 5: It is all up to the Republicans.
Speaker 13: And I think, you know, at this point, I would
Speaker 13: say more likely than not he gets narrowly re elected.
Speaker 13: But he already has one person, Tom Massey, who has
Speaker 13: come out publicly and said he will not vote for
Speaker 13: Speaker Johnson, and so one more and he may have
Speaker 13: a fight on his hands. And I think a lot
Speaker 13: of this at this point depends on Donald Trump. Does
Speaker 13: he come out publicly on truth, social or otherwise support
Speaker 13: Mike Johnson or does he let him sort of flap
Speaker 13: in the wind. And of course there's nobody else there
Speaker 13: waiting in the wings at this point that we know
Speaker 13: of who might be a contender, and so that works
Speaker 13: to Johnson's benefit as well.
Speaker 2: A lot of this has to do with posture, what
Speaker 2: posture the party will take.
Speaker 3: Will it be the party of No?
Speaker 2: Well, there'd be opportunities to work together, and I think
Speaker 2: maybe there will be rick with such a thin majority here.
Speaker 2: We talked yesterday, as I mentioned, with Sean Caston, Democrat
Speaker 2: from Illinois, had this to say about cooperating with the
Speaker 2: other party.
Speaker 14: I think you'll continue to find that Democrats are willing
Speaker 14: to work constructively with those Republicans on a bipartisan basis
Speaker 14: as we have. But we'll have to see what they
Speaker 14: bring together. There's you know, I like to remind people
Speaker 14: that there were two fist fights in the House this
Speaker 14: last term. They all involved Republicans, and trying to figure
Speaker 14: out how they're going to get along together is going
Speaker 14: to be is going to be a challenge for this
Speaker 14: next term, at least in the House.
Speaker 2: Well, Rick, there's going to be a fist fight about
Speaker 2: the border and immigration, it seems in the outset of
Speaker 2: this Congress, and based on everything we're hearing today that
Speaker 2: could include actual legal immigration things like work visas and
Speaker 2: H one b's.
Speaker 3: Is that where Democrats come in here?
Speaker 15: You know, I think the first real test is going
Speaker 15: to be that speaker's vote.
Speaker 4: You know, the process matters here.
Speaker 15: January third, nobody gets sworn in until they have a speaker.
Speaker 15: Speaker actually swears in all the members of Congress, So
Speaker 15: you got to get that done, and then two days later,
Speaker 15: January sixth, guess what you have to approve the election.
Speaker 15: We remember that very well from the last go round.
Speaker 15: And so you've got one Republican, as Genie said, who's
Speaker 15: already said I'm not voting for you. Two more and
Speaker 15: it's a done deal. Right, you'll need Democrats and the Democratic.
Speaker 10: Manoraly, wh has already said we're not going to go.
Speaker 3: Bail these guys out again.
Speaker 15: And so the question is does Donald Trump understand this process?
Speaker 15: Does he want a rocky road to confirmation from his
Speaker 15: own election, because that's what's happening on the sixth. Donald
Speaker 15: Trump won, and so you know there's going to be
Speaker 15: a lot of work done to make sure that we
Speaker 15: don't have a fiasco on a third I think only
Speaker 15: then will we decide, or can decide whether or not
Speaker 15: there's going to be sort of a attitude toward cooperation,
Speaker 15: bipartisanship in the House Representative. Certain you'll see it in
Speaker 15: the Senate and specifically around immigration, where you already had
Speaker 15: a bill that was bipartisan that got knocked down by
Speaker 15: Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: He'll probably want to resurrect that.
Speaker 15: So yeah, I think I think there's a lot of
Speaker 15: wood to chop between now and when all these members
Speaker 15: are comfortably seated in their chairs.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: You imagine a world and I think the answer is yes, Genie,
Speaker 2: in which there is no speaker elected in time for
Speaker 2: the sixth we can't certify the vote. I mean, we're
Speaker 2: talking real chaos in that world. But let's just pull
Speaker 2: it back from the ledge for a moment. We talked
Speaker 2: recently with Tim Burchett, the Republican from Tennessee, and we
Speaker 2: know how he feels about some of these things. He
Speaker 2: was at CNN last week and said Johnson quote has
Speaker 2: some tough decisions to me. But ultimately, Jeannie, it's going
Speaker 2: to be decided who President Trump likes.
Speaker 3: Is that the real contest?
Speaker 6: I think it is.
Speaker 13: I think if Trump comes out publicly in support of
Speaker 13: Johnson in the short term, he will become speaker. Who
Speaker 13: knows how long that will last. But you know, there
Speaker 13: is a lot of push from the MAGA conservative base.
Speaker 13: We heard Steve Bannon repeatedly the latest out at Turning
Speaker 13: Point in Arizona over the weekend dump Johnson. We saw
Speaker 13: the Hill article where you have a lot of unnamed
Speaker 13: sources saying three whoever Republicans going down to mar A
Speaker 13: Lago telling Trump to dump Johnson. I think a few
Speaker 13: things again working for Johnson. Number one is what Rick
Speaker 13: was just talking about, which is the chaos for Donald
Speaker 13: Trump if they do indeed dump Johnson. There is a
Speaker 13: scenario in which, if they don't have a speaker, you
Speaker 13: see Joe Biden, Kamala Harris step aside, and President pro
Speaker 13: Tem of the Senate Chuck Grassley, he actually becomes the
Speaker 13: president in a short term. Now, many constitutional experts say
Speaker 13: that won't happen. It's a gray area. There can be
Speaker 13: an agreement in the House between the Dems and the
Speaker 13: Republicans to count those votes, but I'm not sure that's
Speaker 13: how Donald Trump wants to start out his second term.
Speaker 13: And so that I think is gonna work for Johnson.
Speaker 13: But Joe, for us, it's gonna be a whole lot
Speaker 13: of fun sort of.
Speaker 3: We'll see about that.
Speaker 2: I just love Jeanie has played this whole thing out
Speaker 2: in her head already.
Speaker 3: Rick, My god, this could be fascinating. But you're right.
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon says he's got to go with regard to
Speaker 2: Mike Johnson.
Speaker 3: But Rick, we keep hearing that.
Speaker 2: Nobody else wants the job, which is by definition job
Speaker 2: security for Mike Johnson.
Speaker 3: Is that right?
Speaker 15: Well, I think every member walking around the floor, both
Speaker 15: Democrat and Republican, want to be speaker. Don't believe what
Speaker 15: they tell you. It's a powerful job. You get to
Speaker 15: make a lot of decisions. Sure, you know it's a
Speaker 15: tough thing to corral at caucus, but you know, Steven
Speaker 15: Scale and others are going to be ready to step
Speaker 15: into the breed or there's a.
Speaker 3: Vote of no confidence.
Speaker 2: You wonder about a Jim Jordan or a Steve Scalise
Speaker 2: as speaker, Genie, But didn't we already try that just
Speaker 2: this year?
Speaker 5: We did, We.
Speaker 6: Did in the one hundred and eighteenth and again this year.
Speaker 13: And you know what, how about we look outside the house?
Speaker 6: What about Donald Trump Junior? Or well Elon Musk.
Speaker 13: Is falling out of favor a bit with the MAGA, right,
Speaker 13: But who knows who it could be at this point?
Speaker 13: Maybe Laura Trump she doesn't want to be Senator of Florida,
Speaker 13: Maybe she wants to be speaker.
Speaker 2: I don't even know where to go with this, you know,
Speaker 2: I show up with things to ask Rick and Jeanie.
Speaker 3: We go down another path.
Speaker 2: So if I have this straight here, Donald Trump is
Speaker 2: the Speaker of the House and the senator from Iowa
Speaker 2: is the president.
Speaker 3: Genie, is that what we get in the new year?
Speaker 10: Well?
Speaker 13: Maybe yeah, Donald Trump Junior and then Grassley you know, so,
Speaker 13: I mean, who knows. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but
Speaker 13: it is going to be crazy to watch because being
Speaker 13: Speaker of the House is really a short term job
Speaker 13: at this point, and it has been for you know,
Speaker 13: several cycles going back. Now it is a job that
Speaker 13: even Mike Jordan is saying nobody want or Mike Johnson, sorry,
Speaker 13: is saying nobody wants to have.
Speaker 3: So he'll just sit and slip on that one.
Speaker 2: Rick, Can we settle one question right now when it
Speaker 2: comes to the order the sequencing, when it comes to
Speaker 2: legislation on Capitol Hill? Do you do the border first,
Speaker 2: do you do tax cuts first?
Speaker 3: Or do you do them together?
Speaker 2: It seems to me with this argument that's underway today
Speaker 2: over H one B Visa's we have our answer.
Speaker 3: What do you think?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think you go with what is the easiest thing?
Speaker 15: Right and we know how complicated and difficult immigration is
Speaker 15: going to be, but it's easier than the tax code
Speaker 15: right now, and so you're going to need some time
Speaker 15: to prep that, and they're going to want to bill
Speaker 15: on the floor in the first sixty days. And the
Speaker 15: one that can get there is immigration. And it sounds like,
Speaker 15: based on all the rhetoric that's coming out of mar
Speaker 15: A Lago, could be more comprehensive than we would have
Speaker 15: initially thought. So, you know, cross your fingers, hope to die,
Speaker 15: stick a needle in your eye. You may actually have
Speaker 15: comprehensive immigration reform at the hands of Donald Trump. You know,
Speaker 15: Nixon was the only one who could go to China.
Speaker 15: Maybe Donald Trump's the only one who can actually solve
Speaker 15: immigration reform.
Speaker 2: Unbelievable yet entirely believable. And this is what we're going
Speaker 2: to be talking about with Rick Davis and Genie Shanzano
Speaker 2: in the new year, our signature panel Bloomberg Politics contributors.
Speaker 3: Thank you both. Great to have you for a great
Speaker 3: conversation today.
Speaker 2: As always, they'll be back in the mix of course
Speaker 2: next week as we walk up on that new Congress.
Speaker 3: And the new year. Thanks for listening to the Balance
Speaker 3: of Power podcast.
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