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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Wildonna high Across asset reporter with Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: And this Weekvil Donna, a very special episode shows up.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I was a kid in the seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties, the best TV was always the crossover events.

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Speaker 2: Are you sure it was this the eighteen seven Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I knew that was coming old shaming as usual, but

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Speaker 1: I had to google it to figure out what the

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Speaker 1: best crossover okay, TV episodes ever were. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what The first one? I think was No Superman on

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Speaker 1: I Love Lucy in nineteen fifty seven. How about that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I was not around for that, but I was around

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Speaker 1: for The Jetsons meet the Flintstones. That was a thing,

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Speaker 1: you remember that, the Jetsons meet. I don't know how the

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Speaker 1: Jetsons could have met the Flintstone. It doesn't seen logical.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because one is future one is past.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, so here's one of your generations, I think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: the Sweet Life of Hannah Montana. You remember that?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I watched that when I was little. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course, Miley Cyrus.

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Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus. He watched Hannah of course, and did you

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Speaker 1: remember them her on The Sweet Life?

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Speaker 2: No, The Sweet Life with Zach and Cody? Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Anyway, No, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: The point is I love a good crossover episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have one today, we do. We're really really

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Speaker 2: fortunate to have Joe Wisenthal and Tracy Alloway the co

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Speaker 2: hosts or hosts hosts co hosts, co host, co host

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Speaker 2: works of What goes Up Now I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 1: The Jetsons. We have the Jetsons meeting.

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Speaker 2: The Flintstoness meeting the flint Scents. There. They are the

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Speaker 2: hosts of the uber super popular Odd Lots podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. Really have very psyched to be here.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, we want to actually start out by talking

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Speaker 2: about you guys a little bit cool. We are going

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Speaker 2: to put you on the spot, okay, but actually, Joe,

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Speaker 2: right before we started taping, you said you when you

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Speaker 2: were little, you lived in Malaysia.

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Speaker 4: I did I live for I moved around a Fairmount

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Speaker 4: when I was a kid, and my dad was a

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Speaker 4: he's a physics professor and the Malaysian government in the

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Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe they still have the program. But

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Speaker 4: in the late eighties and early nineties, they had this

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Speaker 4: program where they imported American university professors to Malaysia for

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Speaker 4: a few years so that local like sort of like

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Speaker 4: promising students could train under like a sort of US

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Speaker 4: style university system for their first two years of college

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Speaker 4: and then complete their degrees in the US for their

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Speaker 4: final two years.

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Speaker 3: So that was really fun. I want to go back

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Speaker 3: to Malaysia here.

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Speaker 2: I thought you were from Texas.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm a Fox Texans.

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Speaker 1: I want to college secular misconception. I was from Texas.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad I give off. I'm glad I pull it off.

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Speaker 1: You've got the swagger the cowboys.

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Speaker 2: Well, because you go to Texas on vacations.

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Speaker 3: One of the college there and I go back there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your backstory?

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Speaker 3: Can you give us the actual chronology?

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Speaker 5: Because no, I can't because I don't remember everything. So

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Speaker 5: I was born in Arkansas in a place that no

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Speaker 5: longer exists. It was a military base. My dad was

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Speaker 5: with the Air Force.

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Speaker 6: And then I lived in.

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Speaker 5: Chicago for a bit, Dallas for a bit, and then

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Speaker 5: I moved to I was in Tokyo for a part

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Speaker 5: of preschool, and then at some point I moved to

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Speaker 5: Tokyo first to fourth grade, and then I was in

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Speaker 5: Chicago from middle school, and then I was in Vienna

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Speaker 5: for two years, and then my last two years of

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Speaker 5: high school were in Tokyo.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you both have sort of this. You know,

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Speaker 1: grew up moving around a lot of will Don and

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Speaker 1: I think I barely left the Tri state area. But

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Speaker 1: let's get into sort of I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: what makes you two such good co hosts and what

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Speaker 1: makes you tick, because I feel like there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a ying and yang thing going on. You know.

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Speaker 1: I look at Tracy and I the way you view

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Speaker 1: markets and correct me if I'm making too many leaps here.

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Speaker 1: But you're almost like a chief risk officer to me.

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Speaker 1: You look at the economy and markets from that angle,

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Speaker 1: whereas Joe is sort of like, I don't know, and

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Speaker 1: this is a compliment, but sort of perennial optimists, risk embracing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is that a fair way to.

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Speaker 5: Describe you to I think we skew in those respective directions.

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Speaker 5: I think I've spoken about this before, but a lot

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Speaker 5: of my career as a financial journalist was colored by

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Speaker 5: the two thousand and eight financial crisis. I actually left

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Speaker 5: Bloomberg En joined the ft Are in September of two

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Speaker 5: thousand and eight, and that was the first time I

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Speaker 5: covered hardcore finance, so banks and markets, and you can

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Speaker 5: imagine what that experience was like. And I think to

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Speaker 5: some degree that has shaped my approach to financial journalism,

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Speaker 5: which is you're always looking for the next risk over

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Speaker 5: the horizon. That's kind of where the big prizes for

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Speaker 5: a lot of financial journalists. But I have also come

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Speaker 5: to realize, thanks in part to Joe, that there is

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Speaker 5: a whole other discourse of financial journalism out there. You know,

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Speaker 5: people are interest in potential investments, obviously, people are interested

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Speaker 5: in how things actually work, and that has been very,

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Speaker 5: very fun to cover.

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Speaker 3: I love the framework.

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Speaker 4: Our old colleague Luke Kawa has said multiple times that

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Speaker 4: Tracy is value and I'm momentum, which is basically, like,

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Speaker 4: you know, Tracy captures the value factor. It's like eternal

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Speaker 4: and you know, like me, I am. You know, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: everyone's talking about crypto now, and it's not that like

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Speaker 4: I'm into crypto per se, or like that I'm into

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Speaker 4: AI or whatever. It's more just that like, oh, this

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Speaker 4: is the thing, and I want to figure it out,

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Speaker 4: and then Tracy is like the ballast maybe like you know,

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Speaker 4: Tracy is the bonds on the sixty forty portfolio and

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Speaker 4: I'm the stocks or something like that. I do think

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Speaker 4: that it balances out well, that completes the optimal portfolio

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Speaker 4: allocation between the two of us.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting way to think of it, because

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, risk aversion is probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: mistake over too much risk version is the biggest mistake

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Speaker 1: an investor can make, I think totally.

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Speaker 5: And this is something that I used to write a

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Speaker 5: lot about credit and corporate bonds, and I kept writing

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Speaker 5: about how, oh, when interest rates go up, this is

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Speaker 5: going to be a big, big issue.

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Speaker 6: And I kind of.

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Speaker 5: Had to get over that to some extent because in

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty, you know, what did we see. We saw

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Speaker 5: the Fed announce a corporate bond buying program. And after that,

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Speaker 5: I think the risk kind of shifts a little bit

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Speaker 5: and you start to realize that there are a lot

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Speaker 5: of problems out there in the world, but central banks

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Speaker 5: are also sort of endlessly creative at solving them, and

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Speaker 5: to some extent I stopped worrying so much about those

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Speaker 5: types of risks.

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Speaker 3: I do think it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, now we're actually talking literally about like sort

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Speaker 4: of financial assets, but it is interesting.

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Speaker 3: I've always think, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, if you're like into bonds, your payout is capped right,

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Speaker 4: like you know that you want to get paid back

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Speaker 4: at one hundred dollars on the dollar. It's the downside

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Speaker 4: that can you go all the way to zero. So

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Speaker 4: it's like an entirely a sort of worldview of like

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Speaker 4: downside avoidance, whereas with stocks, you know, the upside is

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Speaker 4: theoretically unlimited. So it's like you have one side that's

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Speaker 4: trying to like cut off the left tail, and you

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Speaker 4: have another side that's trying to like shoot for the

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Speaker 4: right tail. But I really do think, like in covering

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Speaker 4: markets too, you start to see these like personality types

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Speaker 4: like a merge where it's like, I don't know, stock

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Speaker 4: people seem.

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Speaker 3: A little sunnier.

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Speaker 4: Commity people are the most sociopathic because they're sort of

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Speaker 4: vetting against human ingenuity, and bond people are like the

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Speaker 4: most like sort of like yeah, like risk avoidant because

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Speaker 4: they already know what they're the best outcome is they're

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Speaker 4: just trying to cut off the worst outcomes.

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Speaker 6: And then there are FX traders.

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Speaker 3: What about crypto. It's like this like weird mix of

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Speaker 3: like optimism and like derange pessimism.

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Speaker 6: I don't know, Like, no, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 5: It's like we're going to get a massive payout because

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Speaker 5: the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, Tracy, I'm going to point you

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Speaker 1: chief risk officer of Odd Lots.

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Speaker 6: I like, thank you.

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Speaker 1: But Joe has always been a big proponent of the

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Speaker 1: trillion dollar coin. For those who are unfamiliar, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how you could be after all the talk of it.

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Speaker 1: But the idea is that when the government, when Congress

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Speaker 1: reaches this impass on raising the debt ceiling, that there's

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Speaker 1: an obscure law that allows the Treasury to meant a

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Speaker 1: trillion dollar coin. It's such a Joe topic, and I

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Speaker 1: love that about it. It's like because it's quirky, it's weird,

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Speaker 1: but also it is like a potential real life solution

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Speaker 1: to a major problem that is worth discussing. And this

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Speaker 1: past episode of the debt ceiling talks, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it bubbled up to the highs.

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Speaker 6: It it bubbles up every time. It never actually happens one day.

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Speaker 1: He let's hear your take on the trillion dollar coin.

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Speaker 5: So, first of all, let me say I admire Joe's

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Speaker 5: commitment to the trillion dollar coin, and in many ways

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Speaker 5: it is a exceedingly clever loophole that sort of gets

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Speaker 5: to the heart of the way the US monetary and

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Speaker 5: legal system actually works. However, my issue with it, I

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Speaker 5: think is optics matter, right, and I think pitching this

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Speaker 5: idea as like, we got a lot of really smart

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Speaker 5: people in a room to find a really esoteric loophole

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Speaker 5: that you know, is difficult to explain to a lot

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Speaker 5: of people, and then trying to explain that to a

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Speaker 5: general population of voters I think would be extremely difficult.

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Speaker 5: So that's number one. You can imagine the Fox News

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Speaker 5: headlines on Democrats minting the coin effectively. And then the

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Speaker 5: second thing that worries me about it is it is

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Speaker 5: a very clever loophole, but a loophole nonetheless, And we

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Speaker 5: might think it's worthwhile in the context of a debt

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Speaker 5: sealing argument, but what about the next president. What if

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Speaker 5: the next president decides, oh, actually I can do something

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Speaker 5: similar to I don't know, fund my like fascist army

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Speaker 5: or something like that.

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Speaker 6: That worries me.

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Speaker 5: And loopholes seem great when they're being used for things

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Speaker 5: that you agree with. They do not seem so great

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Speaker 5: when they're being used for things that are more nefarious.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'll give you my one worry about it,

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Speaker 1: then we'll let Shoe respond all of it. My worry

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Speaker 1: is like it could create a Liz Trust type of

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Speaker 1: moment in the markets. You know, the UK leader who

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Speaker 1: introduced you know, big tax cuts.

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Speaker 6: Joe has thoughts on liz Trust too, and the lettuce right.

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Speaker 1: My fear would be that would be this immediate reaction

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Speaker 1: in the markets, Like that would cause you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: the dollar to saying, bond yields to go nuts.

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Speaker 3: Everything you guys say is probably mostly right.

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Speaker 4: I'll say two things is like, one is the worst

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Speaker 4: outcome I think of a debt ceiling fiasco would be

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Speaker 4: an actual miscredit payment or mistrageric payment. And there are

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Speaker 4: many things loopholes, gimmicks, potential market risk, credibility, things that

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Speaker 4: would probably be worth taking if the alternative is an

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Speaker 4: actual default on the debt. And the other thing is

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Speaker 4: I'll just say, look at my enthusiasm. It's like, in addition,

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Speaker 4: it to being a loophole like and Tracy sort of

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Speaker 4: hinted at this. I love the didactic potential of it

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Speaker 4: because you do learn a lot through like how our

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Speaker 4: monetary system is like and these inversational why wouldn't cons inflation?

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Speaker 4: And you learn a lot about constitutional origins, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: So it's almost like a thought experiment in the form

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Speaker 4: of a physical coin. It's like it's something it is,

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Speaker 4: this like physical thing that could exist, but there are

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Speaker 4: so many interesting legal and economic ideas embedded in this

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Speaker 4: coin that I can't help but resist want to see

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Speaker 4: it happen.

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Speaker 1: One is there a little bit of mischievousness too on

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Speaker 1: your own?

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Speaker 2: You know what?

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Speaker 3: I just say, yes.

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Speaker 4: But what I really do enjoy about it from a

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Speaker 4: sort of like mischief a standpoint, is that most arguments

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Speaker 4: against it, not saying traces are yours, but most arguments

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Speaker 4: end up being extremely bad and easily debunked and easily

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Speaker 4: argued against. And so what I sort of enjoy from

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Speaker 4: a you can call it trolling, is that you do

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Speaker 4: see these people like tilted windmills because it seems like, oh,

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Speaker 4: it's obviously dumb, and then like one by one, the

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Speaker 4: sort of like at their arguments fall apart, which is weird,

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Speaker 4: and so it's kind of you can have a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Fun with it.

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Speaker 2: This is great for me because we're creating a lot

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Speaker 2: of controversy with this this podcast. Okay, the other thing

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Speaker 2: about both of you, and I've worked with both of

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Speaker 2: you in different capacities over the last couple of years,

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Speaker 2: but also you guys have so many ideas about stories

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Speaker 2: that should be written about the market, like really good

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Speaker 2: ideas all the time. Like Tracy, remember one of your

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Speaker 2: mayonnaise story was so good, Oh thank you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was so toying with whether or not to

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Speaker 5: do a third edition of may I will just do it.

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Speaker 5: August is mayonnaise season for me, so maybe I will.

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Speaker 2: Another topic you guys have been talking about a lot

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Speaker 2: is organized labor and you've had some episodes about this,

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Speaker 2: and I think Tracy you called it the hot union summer.

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Speaker 5: I think Joe pointed out I was probably not the

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Speaker 5: first person to say that, but it does feel like

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Speaker 5: there is something in the air with more proactive labor

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Speaker 5: union movements. And we talked about this actually in one

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Speaker 5: of our really early pandemic episodes. We had on a

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Speaker 5: financial historian to talk about what happened to the labor

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Speaker 5: market are the plague in the Middle Ages, and he

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Speaker 5: made the point that because so many people died, there

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Speaker 5: was a lot of power that sort of swung to labor,

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Speaker 5: and so you did start to see some pushback against

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Speaker 5: I guess the sort of land barons of that time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and maybe, you know, maybe that's what we're seeing now.

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Speaker 4: The labor conversation, I feel like touches on so many

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Speaker 4: different dynamics that we like to like what happens when

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Speaker 4: labor markets just get really tight and work or bargaining power,

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Speaker 4: which is something we discussed for years before the pandemic,

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Speaker 4: and why was wage growth so mediocre and stuff, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: The role of like organized labor is like, there's all

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Speaker 4: this domestic investment in electric vehicles and electrifying, you know, decarbonization.

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Speaker 4: That's really interesting.

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Speaker 5: Tension corporate profits as well, which is something we've been

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Speaker 5: talking a lot about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I just feel yeah, and also, you know,

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Speaker 4: like so much of the seventies inflation story is like

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Speaker 4: caught up in this thing of like this the sort

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Speaker 4: of wage price spiral and the unions being able to

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Speaker 4: claim higher wages than the work. The company is trying

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Speaker 4: to pass that on, and so like the labor dimension,

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Speaker 4: it just seems like like this big through line across

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Speaker 4: so many of our different themes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a headline out this week the ups the

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Speaker 1: new contract. At the end of the drivers will be

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Speaker 1: making like one seven hundred and seventy.

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Speaker 2: Dollars with benefits.

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Speaker 1: Which, hey, it's a hard job and yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: they deserve it, but.

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Speaker 2: But it is. It is part of so many other

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Speaker 2: stories too, like the Yellow Core bankruptcy that partly was

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Speaker 2: also triggered by I think union talks.

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Speaker 4: Right, that company was like in deep distress for years,

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Speaker 4: but that was that did seem to be distray that Finally.

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Speaker 6: They definitely blamed it on the union.

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Speaker 3: They definitely planned it on the.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, another hot button topic. Were you ready?

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Speaker 2: What is it?

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Speaker 1: Take a deep breath MMT. I want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about it.

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Speaker 4: Can I just say Tracy is like, even though she

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Speaker 4: would claimed to like or disclaim MMT, the MMT ers

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Speaker 4: all love many of Tracy's formulations.

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Speaker 3: God, Tracy really nailed it.

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Speaker 6: Well my okay, here here's my on the record stance

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Speaker 6: on MMT.

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Speaker 1: First, can you you'll explain it better than I can.

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Speaker 6: Let's show explain it a brief.

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Speaker 4: I would describe MMT as the simple characterization that a government.

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Speaker 4: That a government's constraint is not the same as a

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Speaker 4: household constraint where it's like, oh, you're not going to

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Speaker 4: have enough income to pay your debts. That a government's

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Speaker 4: constraint is the flip, which is that the constraint on

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Speaker 4: spending is real resources in the economy, and if you

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Speaker 4: spend too much then you get inflation, and that that

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Speaker 4: composes some sort of limit on what you can spend.

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Speaker 4: But they're trying to gauge a government's spending capacity by

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Speaker 4: just looking at things like deficits. The gap between revenue

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Speaker 4: and income won't get you very far.

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Speaker 6: And I actually I agree with all of that. However,

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Speaker 6: my I guess.

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Speaker 1: It's like a therapy session for you to hear.

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Speaker 6: This is a lot Joe and not yelling at each other. No,

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Speaker 6: I agree with that.

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Speaker 5: My problem with it is I don't find it that

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Speaker 5: useful because in practice it already seems to exist. I mean,

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Speaker 5: we've watched the US deficit go up.

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Speaker 6: And up and up.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't really a problem until we had inflation, and

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Speaker 5: MMT has a lot to say about that, and I agree,

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Speaker 5: but in practice, viewing it through that framework, I don't

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Speaker 5: think leads to different actions. And then the other thing

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Speaker 5: I would say is I question its usefulness even more

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Speaker 5: for emerging markets. And we've talked about this on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: Well, the one thing I'm wondering in this current environment,

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Speaker 1: MMT would sort of suggest that the way to beat

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Speaker 1: inflation is raised taxes. Right, we're cut spending, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but probably raised taxes. And I feel like that's its

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Speaker 1: achilles heel in that when could you ever get a politician.

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Speaker 6: This is exactly it.

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Speaker 5: So it's like, Okay, we're going to shift the conversation

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Speaker 5: among politicians from like, oh, we have to worry about

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Speaker 5: the deficit, so we can't spend this, or we can't

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Speaker 5: enact tax cuts or whatever, and you're supposed to shift

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Speaker 5: the conversation to inflation. But talking about inflation and why

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Speaker 5: it's happening and the sources of inflation is even more

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Speaker 5: difficult in some respects than talking about things from a

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Speaker 5: pure budget perspective. And I think we've really seen that

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Speaker 5: over the past couple of years. So again I question

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Speaker 5: the utility.

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Speaker 1: So if you put an automatic trigger in the law

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Speaker 1: saying inflations above three percent, taxes go up.

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Speaker 5: It's bad enough when politicians argue over, oh this is

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Speaker 5: going to cost you know, one billion dollars. It will

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Speaker 5: be even worse when they start talking about, oh, this

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Speaker 5: is going to cause a you know, zero point two

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Speaker 5: percent increase in inflation.

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Speaker 4: I do think also, I mean to the point, you know,

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Speaker 4: you see the fight over even the pause over student

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Speaker 4: debt payments and how fraud that is. So I think

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Speaker 4: like it is a pretty good critique of MT as

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Speaker 4: a sort of like working political theory, the idea that

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Speaker 4: like that there are theoretically times in which it makes

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Speaker 4: sense to have fiscal constraints and that is difficult. And

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Speaker 4: that's arguably like one of the reasons that the FED

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Speaker 4: exists because Paul, you know that or why this is

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Speaker 4: sort of the current ocean of what FED independence actually

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Speaker 4: is was sort of built on this idea that, like, well,

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Speaker 4: politicians can't be assumed to do what's right. And I

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Speaker 4: would say, the one thing, you know, the one other

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Speaker 4: thing is like Tracy came up with the formulation that,

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Speaker 4: like any problem that you can solve with money isn't

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Speaker 4: really a problem, which all the m M tiers love,

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Speaker 4: So even though they've always love Tracy's lying about and

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Speaker 4: you probably can solved with money isn't like really a problem.

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Speaker 5: So one other thing I would say, just you know,

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Speaker 5: out of mutual respect for the m M tiers is

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Speaker 5: I am a huge fan of any iconic plastic economist

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Speaker 5: who is actually thinking up new ideas for the way

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Speaker 5: the world works. So massive respect for Stephaniekelton. I think

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Speaker 5: she's done some phenomenal work. I do have questions about it,

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Speaker 5: but kudos to her for looking at things in a

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Speaker 5: slightly different way and.

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Speaker 1: As a description of the current situation m mts it's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I leave it there.

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Speaker 1: That's good.

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Speaker 3: That's good. That's good.

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Speaker 2: I will say for a lot of these topics, the

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Speaker 2: first time I learn of them, or like really start

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Speaker 2: looking into them or become interested in them is because

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Speaker 2: you guys are talking about it on Twitter, on x

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Speaker 2: on x okay another one, and you guys also did

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Speaker 2: a recent episode about this. It's a company most Americans

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Speaker 2: don't know anything about.

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Speaker 6: Bid the Chinese EV maker.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so EV's in general. Because Tracy, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to quote you again, you said, there's this ongoing tension

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Speaker 2: between wanting to create a vibrant and competitive EV industry

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Speaker 2: and battery making in the US, which BID is in China,

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Speaker 2: but also attaching better work conditions for workers. So this

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Speaker 2: all sort of ties some of these themes together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I think we've spoken to some senior officials

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Speaker 5: from the Biden administration about this tension. There is a

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Speaker 5: desire to create specific industry within the US, like batteries

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Speaker 5: like EV's solar panels, maybe at scale and in an

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Speaker 5: efficient way, but at the same time, you want to

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Speaker 5: create good working conditions. You want to make sure that

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Speaker 5: this is a valuable industry for the US, and I

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Speaker 5: think there's there's a real tension there between creating an efficient,

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Speaker 5: presumably affordable product that Americans can buy and competing with

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Speaker 5: other places in the world.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I do think this is just this huge

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Speaker 4: story how cheap the end, you know, the improving quality

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Speaker 4: of Chinese electric vehicles and their competitive price points. It

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Speaker 4: seems to be creating all kinds of stress in Europe

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Speaker 4: right now or the beginning, more so than the US.

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Speaker 4: But I do think it'll be It's interesting. I do

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Speaker 4: think like there are some very exciting things happening domestically

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Speaker 4: in the US with like our battery investments and the

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Speaker 4: Inflation Reduction Act, et cetera. Like every other day there's

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Speaker 4: some new announcement of a new plant, and it's just

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Speaker 4: like unreal the growth that we're seeing in spending on

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Speaker 4: manufacturing facilities. And I'm not convinced necessarily that like the

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Speaker 4: level of US wages is going to be a problem,

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Speaker 4: but I do think it's highly tbd whether all of

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Speaker 4: these facilities end up producing competitive products on a global scale.

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Speaker 1: Joe, this reminds me of a tweet I think you

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Speaker 1: had this week sometime, and I know you guys have

442
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 1: had a few guests on talking about the notion of Bidenomics.

443
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: But to me, what's fascinating is this perception of the economy.

444
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: And you tweeted out one of the consumer confidence surveys

445
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: where or maybe it's the National Federation of Small Businesses,

446
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: but one of those surveys where it's like Democrats think

447
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 1: the economy is great, you know, empirically you look at

448
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: the numbers, it's all great, Republican, but Republicans think we're

449
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 1: just going to hell, Like what how to explain that that.

450
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it does seem.

451
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 4: Like so many people in the US right now are

452
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 4: almost in case, and I, you know, the the data suggests.

453
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 4: I think it is a little bit more extreme for Republicans,

454
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 4: but I actually think quote on both sides, there is

455
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 4: extreme level of inability to sort of view the economy

456
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 4: outside of the partisan lens. And if the president is

457
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 4: not your party, it is pretty dramatic how much that

458
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 4: will swigh your view on what is going on.

459
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 3: And it's sort of like, do you think I tell

460
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: you what.

461
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: It's a partly media consumption. Do you think if you're.

462
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 4: Sure media or the sort of that would not be

463
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 4: surprise me at all? You know, I feel sorry for

464
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 4: people like that. I actually like do I like the

465
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 4: inability of we all know them too in real life

466
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 4: right the inability of people to like think clearly and

467
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 4: critically outside of the lens of is this a Democrat

468
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 4: thing or Republican thing?

469
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 5: Like?

470
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 4: Of course it's sort of annoying, but I actually like

471
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 4: feel sorry for people whose minds are caught in that trap.

472
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 5: I think partisanship is a huge aspect of this, and

473
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 5: there's a lot of noise in the surveys right now,

474
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 5: and some of it is due to media consumption. And

475
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 5: we're not the only ones who have said this. Paul

476
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 5: Donovan over at UBS has talked about this. The other

477
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 5: thing I would say is, I do think there is

478
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 5: a real segmentation in the economy now between people who

479
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 5: earn less and people who earn more. And for people

480
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 5: who earn more, you know, higher inflation is probably something

481
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 5: that they can deal with. For people who earn less,

482
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 5: it might actually be that they're not seeing the benefits

483
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 5: of a lot of the things that we're talking about,

484
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 5: the things that are showing up in the hard numbers.

485
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 5: I think both those things can be simultaneously true.

486
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 2: You're very humbly name dropped talking to a White House official,

487
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 2: But you guys did talk to Jared Bernstein recently, and

488
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: I think the topic was bidens right, And it does

489
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: seem like the White House is trying to.

490
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: Wait, let me name drop something like that. You know,

491
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: Joe Biden guest lectured my college economics class.

492
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: I thought you were about to say, well done. I

493
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: booked Joe Biden for US.

494
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: I can't remember. If I would have known he was

495
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: to be president, I would have taken.

496
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 6: You have the inside scoop on Biden.

497
00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: I think we're all like, are we going to be

498
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: tested on this? And they said no, and we all

499
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: just kind of tuned out.

500
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 2: Did you miss that class?

501
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 5: No?

502
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: I was. But anyway, well, maybe talk about some of

503
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 2: the highlights from that Jared Bernstein conversation.

504
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 4: What's really interesting to me is that they've chosen this

505
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: moment to say like, actually, we're happy with the economy,

506
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 4: We're proud of this economy. And I think that's really

507
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 4: telling because like the economy in you know, summer twenty

508
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 4: twenty three, inflation has come down a bit, but like

509
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 4: you know, it's not it's still high, right or it

510
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 4: still seems to be high core inflation. I guess it's

511
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 4: cooling a fair amount, it's still high, and I think

512
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 4: there and consumer sentiment numbers are not great. They some

513
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 4: of them have bounced back a little bit, but what's

514
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 4: in the unemployment rate's very low, but it's not that

515
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 4: different than the economy several months ago. So it is

516
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 4: sort of notable to me that at some point this

517
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 4: summer the Biden administration was like, you know what, we're

518
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: gonna pivot and rather than sort of like sort of

519
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 4: distract from the economy. We're actually gonna like claim ownership

520
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 4: of this economy, which I think in itself is pretty interesting.

521
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 4: And I think, like, you know, I do think that

522
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: there is like a feeling among the staffers to the

523
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 4: Biden administration that they've done a better job of coming

524
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: out of disaster than the Obama administration did, because like

525
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 4: both Biden and Obama came out of like kind of

526
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 4: like economic disasters of one sort or another. And I

527
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 4: think that there is like a feeling I was like, yeah,

528
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 4: this was the better way.

529
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: Maybe there was an.

530
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 4: Overshoot of spending or stimulus or something, but or there's

531
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 4: a lot being done, there's a lot of domestic investment,

532
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 4: and it's actually like has some teeth.

533
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 6: I agree with that.

534
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 5: The one other thing I would say is it's going

535
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 5: to be really interesting to see whether this sort of

536
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 5: more interventionist style of economic policy sticks around and for

537
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 5: how long, because I remember, I think in twenty twenty,

538
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: I wrote an article called the Choke Point Economy, basically

539
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 5: about how the pandemic had revealed all.

540
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 6: These choke points within the global economy.

541
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 5: You know, we discovered that we couldn't get enough semiconductors

542
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 5: or goods being shipped from China took a lot longer,

543
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 5: and infrastructure at the ports was lacking things like that,

544
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 5: and the governments were becoming more attuned to these issues

545
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 5: and more willing to invest in them. And I think

546
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 5: that's certainly a thesis that's been born out by the

547
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 5: past couple of years, however, with the ensuing inflation, with

548
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 5: the fact that despite a lot of the hard numbers

549
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 5: showing the economy is still going well, but some of

550
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 5: the messaging not necessarily sticking with voters. Is that attitude

551
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 5: going to be around the next time, you know, five

552
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 5: or ten years, let's say. And I think to Joe's point,

553
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 5: there is a lot of agreement that the more active

554
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 5: fiscal intervention in twenty twenty was massively helpful. But I'm

555
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 5: kind of interested in seeing whether or not that conclusion

556
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 5: sticks in say, a decade. Are people going to remember

557
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 5: it for that or are they going to learn the

558
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: wrong lessons that inflation was really high and it was

559
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: still a struggle to convince people that we had successfully

560
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 5: managed one of the worst global pandemics in one hundred years.

561
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, Well, in addition to having a podcast,

562
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: you too have a very well edited. I would say newsletter.

563
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 3: He does it excellent.

564
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: People are saying it's very very well.

565
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 6: You're the one reader we can always count.

566
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 3: Are saying it's the best I've heard that.

567
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, tears in their eyes. But you've gotten into some

568
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: very interesting topics, and I recommend everyone to subscribe if

569
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: they haven't already. But it's a great way to sort

570
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: of get your undistilled thoughts on these things. Tracy. You

571
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: had one recently, a Brave New World Built on bonds,

572
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: basically talking about, well, here we go. We had another

573
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: credit rating cut on the US sovereign rating. Does it

574
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: matter that? Has the bond market moved away from credit ratings?

575
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: This week we saw Moodies come out and just sort

576
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: of dump all over all the bank banks, plant slam

577
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: all all the banks. And you had another one talking

578
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: about the extended pretend idea, you know, a throwback to

579
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: the financial crisis where there's a lot of commercial real

580
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: estate loan workouts being done right now, I'll try to

581
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: sort of do whatever you can to adjust the terms

582
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: to avoid companies going bankrupt. I feel like people here

583
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: extend and pretend and think of it as in a

584
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: derogatory Yeah, yeah, is it.

585
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 5: I mean, it's only bad if it fails. But seriously,

586
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 5: I think this is one of the things, you know,

587
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 5: when we talk about at the beginning of this conversation

588
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 5: the big risks from two thousand and eight, there was

589
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 5: a lot of extend and pretend. Post two thousand and eight,

590
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 5: the economy recovered, albeit slowly and gradually. A lot of

591
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 5: those workouts did, in fact, you know, reach their intended goal.

592
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 5: We saw mark to market accounting suspended on bank balance sheets,

593
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 5: and a lot of those assets ended up recovering.

594
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 6: And so I think we've.

595
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 5: Actually written about this together that the big plank of

596
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 5: financial stability is in fact economic growth. And so if

597
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 5: you see people extend and ten for the foreseeable future,

598
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 5: but the economy remains strong, maybe some of those office

599
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 5: buildings get transformed into something else, maybe more people are

600
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 5: called back into work, then it's a strategy that could

601
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 5: be perfectly tenable.

602
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I've come at some point.

603
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 4: I came to the realization, like I don't know, in

604
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 4: the early twenty ten, it's just all it's can kicking

605
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: for forever. You just keep kicking that can, And people

606
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: say it is a pejorative. It's like No, we're going

607
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 4: to be can kicking till it works. And then my

608
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: kids are going to be kicking the can because it's

609
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 4: like it's kicking the can. No, you just keep kicking it,

610
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: and then the kids, our kids and grandchildren, they'll just

611
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 4: be keep kicking that can. And I sort of think

612
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 4: that like that sort of you know, taking our lumps

613
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: now has this like good feeling. We're going to like,

614
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 4: you know, solve our problems. We're gonna like take the pain.

615
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 4: And I just sort of think like, now you just

616
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: keep finding a way to muddle through, and that that

617
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 4: actually is how sort of the economy and humanity just

618
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 4: sort of keeps keeps going through.

619
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: Okay, Joe, I have a new question. Okay, shot this

620
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: is super interesting to me, and I think actually Matt

621
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: Lewen ended up writing about this this idea of yours

622
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: as well. You said betting on downturns has been really

623
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: costly for companies. So for instance, right now, maybe we're

624
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: not seeing as many companies letting people go because you know,

625
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: they think the downturn is coming.

626
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 5: Yeah.

627
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 4: I mean I think, like, you know, the twenty twenties

628
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 4: in many ways feel like the very reverse of the

629
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 4: twenty ten. So in the twenty tens, the it's like

630
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: double dipper sessions when they're coming, it didn't come. But

631
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 4: like companies were so scared to invest and they're so

632
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: scared to hire.

633
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: But for the first.

634
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: Time ever in like twenty twenty one, in twenty twenty two,

635
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 4: or maybe not the first time ever, but for the

636
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 4: first time in decades, really, I think companies suddenly are like, oh,

637
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 4: we do not have an unlimited supply of workers, which

638
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 4: is I don't think that many managers of corporations ever

639
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 4: contemplated that idea, even in boom time's late nineties whatever,

640
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 4: that like what if we just can't open our store

641
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: because we can't hire? And I think that really had

642
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 4: like a deep like scarring effect on a lot of

643
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 4: managers and management teams at companies. And I think that's

644
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 4: a good potentially portend's good news like down the road,

645
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 4: which is that okay, that like they don't want to

646
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: ever be back there again, and so they'll be slower

647
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 4: to fire going forward, even if they see some signs

648
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: of softness. And what's interesting is I always love one

649
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: of my favorite things every month is when the Dallas

650
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 4: Fed Manufacturing report comes out once a month. I always

651
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 4: jumped to the anecdotal section because like Texas, like business managers,

652
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 4: you know, they're super swaggery and cocky and all that stuff,

653
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: and so they always have very colorful things. But there's

654
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: in recent months some of them have been talking about

655
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 4: how I'm looking forward to the next recession because I'm

656
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: going to expand my investment and take market share for

657
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 4: my opponents. But what's interesting about that is if everyone

658
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 4: goes into the recession with that attitude, you're not going

659
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 4: to get a recession, because recession, you know.

660
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: You're waiting to buy the dip.

661
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 4: So this is like the psychology you want to engender,

662
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: I think for the long boom, which is that if

663
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 4: everyone yeah, it's right, if everyone wants is excited to

664
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 4: buy the dip, and we saw this in the twenty tens,

665
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: you don't get the dip. If everyone is excited about

666
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 4: the downturn because they're going to steal employees from the

667
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 4: other company or steal market share, you can sustain an

668
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 4: expansion for a long time.

669
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 5: I agree with this, and I would also just add

670
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: that we've seen some FED officials start to talk about

671
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 5: that recently, including Tom Barkin, at the Richmond FED recently.

672
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 5: The one thing I would say, with my sort of

673
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 5: like risk officer hat on is a really really bad

674
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 5: thing for the economy would be something that causes everyone

675
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 5: to wake up and go, oh, actually, I have massively

676
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 5: overinflated my labor force for like business activity. A sort

677
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 5: of Minski moment in employment would be very, very bad.

678
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 5: But I don't see anything.

679
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: Margins go down, and they yeah.

680
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 6: Something along those lines.

681
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 5: But I think I think you shouldn't underestimate the sort

682
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 5: of psychological effects here. And I do think it's true

683
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 5: that people have been more scarred by not being able

684
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 5: to ramp up capacity than by having too much capacity

685
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 5: in the previous crisis.

686
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: But so Joe, while you know, Tracy and I are

687
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: looking at the economy in markets wondering what could go wrong.

688
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: As I said, I like how you're always looking for

689
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: the next big thing, the next big opportunity. You were

690
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: the first one I think that I heard the words

691
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: room temperature.

692
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: Apparently it's not happening.

693
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: Well, explain it and explain why it's important and what

694
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: we need to know about you.

695
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 4: First of all, as of an hour ago, some university

696
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 4: put out there's like this is there's no room temperature.

697
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 6: It's actually just floating rocks.

698
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 3: It's just a floating rock so hot.

699
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 4: My dad, by the way, is a physicist, and I

700
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 4: saw him this past weekend and I was like, will

701
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 4: you come on, people will love it so cool? I haven't,

702
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 4: and he's like, no, I'm not. But he did explain that,

703
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 4: like you know, super conductivity, obviously, this idea that you

704
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 4: could like transmit energy across two things or across distances

705
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 4: with no loss would be really powerful, and it exists currently.

706
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: The problem is you.

707
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 4: Need such high pressure or such cold temperatures to do

708
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 4: it that there are very few actual like applications of it,

709
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 4: like apparently MRI technology is one. But he said that,

710
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 4: like were the holy grail to be found of where

711
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 4: you didn't that it would create all kinds of like

712
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 4: new consumer gadgets and certain like energy things. And I

713
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: get you know, I'm literally just repeating what my my

714
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 4: dad said. Hit all these stuff about like bosons and

715
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 4: things like that that I was getting get too much.

716
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: I didn't. It would have been a great episode.

717
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: I'm really annoyed that.

718
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: What goes up. But you know, actually the the the

719
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: thing that.

720
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: Was sort of interesting to me about it is like

721
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 4: the idea of energy loss over some distance is very

722
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 4: intuitive because there's no free lunches in the world, right, Like,

723
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 4: if you get something, it's like, okay, it's like you're

724
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 4: going to transmit energy, but you're gonna have some laws,

725
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: or you can have no energy laws, but then it

726
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 4: has to be a negative five hundred cells. It's like

727
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 4: it wasn't like pay the price somehow. So I asked him, like,

728
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 4: why do scientists even think room temperature super conductivity is

729
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 4: theoretically possible if we know that there's no like sort

730
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 4: of like free lunch in the universe. And what he

731
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 4: suspected was that were there ever to be a substance

732
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 4: that was found that had this property of room temperature superconductivity,

733
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 4: his guess is that it would be very costly to synthesize,

734
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: to make, and so you would pay the price not

735
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: in the application layer, but in the creation of the

736
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 4: material layer. So you'd still like have this, there'd be

737
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 4: no free lunch. Nonetheless, he does think were it to

738
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 4: be found, which he's not totally dismissive of the possibility

739
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 4: that one day it would be that it would open

740
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 4: up new things, but it would still be like difficult

741
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 4: to synthesize in large.

742
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: Back interesting because this was one of the things about

743
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 5: the LK ninety nine formulation, which was like, actually, it

744
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 5: wasn't that difficult to do. So people were simultaneously excited

745
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 5: about the potential for a room temperature superconductor, but also

746
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 5: that it wasn't that difficult to make.

747
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 4: I guess, I guess it turns out it's easy to make.

748
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 4: It's just it's just very magnetic.

749
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: I was sure that tungsten cubes would be involved some

750
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: one day.

751
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: This one day, the tungsten cube that I have.

752
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: In the bin, but I remember you brought it in

753
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 2: and then everybody was like, if you want to go

754
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: see it, you got to go to Joe's.

755
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, community community cube.

756
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's that time, bil Donna. It is for the

757
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: craziest things we saw in markets this week. I hope

758
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: you too came prepared. This is this is a big reveal.

759
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 5: Wait wait, I'm going to go first, just on the

760
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 5: chance that we chose the same one. But mine is

761
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 5: connected to the superconductor stuff, which is last week when

762
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 5: there was all this excitement over the potential LK ninety

763
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 5: nine breakthrough, in South Korea, we saw shares of a

764
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 5: company called American Superconductor shoot to the proverbial moon, a

765
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 5: company that, as far as I could tell, had absolutely

766
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 5: nothing to do with the South Korean researchers. It just

767
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 5: had a superconductor in its name. And fast forward to

768
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 5: this week and it is down a lot.

769
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 4: The thing that still weirds me out, or this thing

770
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 4: that I still don't get, is like why US investors

771
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: got really weirded out, freaked out by like the Bank

772
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 4: of Japan ending your oield curve controllers. It's like, who

773
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: cares suddenly, Like I'm going to like sell my like

774
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 4: portfolio of US equities because like the Bank of Japan did,

775
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 4: like their million of tweak to like the shape of

776
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 4: the old curve. Like I'm sorry, I I mean, maybe

777
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 4: I'm missing something. And like if like the stock market

778
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: crashes from here, then this will be embarrassing. It's just

779
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 4: hard for me to get excited about that one. So

780
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 4: the fact that some people manage to get excited about

781
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 4: that I can consider.

782
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 3: To be impressive.

783
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: The only thought I had is maybe the carry trade.

784
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: But I don't think you buy equities with the carry

785
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: trade really, maybe do I don't.

786
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 4: Know if you're if you want to sell your stock

787
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 4: to me because of the carry trade or something I'll

788
00:37:59,560 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: pick about.

789
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 5: It wasn't the argument that it was going to take

790
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 5: it like a big chunk of bond buyers like move

791
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 5: them away, and that bonds are the underpinning for equities

792
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 5: and a lot of other things.

793
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: It did seem like an overreaction though.

794
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 4: I agree it's going to be really embarrassing in a

795
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 4: week when where market.

796
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: I can't wait to point it out by soon. Yeah,

797
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, listen to this episode where Joe

798
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 2: embarrasses himself. Okay, mine is about Zoom, the company we

799
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 2: all use to zoom.

800
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 6: You know, I think I know what this one is,

801
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 6: and if it is this, it's a good one.

802
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: It is good because they're asking their employees to come

803
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: work from the office.

804
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: I don't do you think they still zoom each other

805
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: in the office though.

806
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: So they go to the office and then also zoom

807
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: each other.

808
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 6: That wouldn't be unheard of.

809
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: But it's just it's funny because they're Zoom, but they're

810
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: asking you to be in person.

811
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: You would think they'd be like everyone stay at home.

812
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: You know, you never another pandemic could be coming.

813
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: You is read the last Zoom conference call about you

814
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 4: should read it. It's from about a month and a

815
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 4: half ago, and it's like the ultimate like flavor of them.

816
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 4: Every question was about their AI strategy. I don't know,

817
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 4: it's like they make a video thing, right they had

818
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 4: They did have good answer, but talk about like the

819
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 4: degree to which like analysts all like sort of school

820
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 4: of fish.

821
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're swimming. It's a very funny ring.

822
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 5: Next call it'll be what Superconductor is doing with energy transfer.

823
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: But there is there's a meme on the former Twitter

824
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: on X where it's just a picture of like a

825
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: Zoom office of like a Zoom skyscraper and then somebody

826
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: being like they have offices. Why would they have offices

827
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: their Zoom?

828
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: All right, I got I got Mine. Mine is a

829
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: game show. Actually, I'm so excited to actually have three

830
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: contestants on it. It makes me feel like a real

831
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: game show host when there's three. Because it's sort of

832
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: a price is right, we call it the prices precise.

833
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: We can't call it prices right, Ye, So all right.

834
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: This is occur to see the Wall Street Journal. I'm

835
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: saddened we did not have this story. Silicon Valley Bank

836
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: went out of business. We all know that went into

837
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: FDIC receivership. So what happens in that process is the

838
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: FDIC sells off all the assets of the bank. One

839
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: of the more interesting assets they're selling off is SVB

840
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: had a huge wine collection. They had nineteen hundred bottles

841
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: of wine one nine hundred boles. Well I was runnering

842
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: the same thing, and there's an old Wall Street Journal

843
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: story that explains it. Being in Silicon Valley. They do

844
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: a lot of business with the wine growers in northern California.

845
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: This guy, there's some guy who actually pitched them on

846
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: starting a wine business. Wine lend, you know, lending money.

847
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: I'm dying to know if any of these were actual

848
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: collateral on some of these loans, but it was something

849
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: like four percent of their loan book was to wine

850
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: makers in northern California. So let me give you a

851
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: little bit more details here before we play the prices

852
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: precise nineteen hundred bottles of fine wine, four hundred bottles

853
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 1: in the Santa Clara branch, three hundred in the Menlo

854
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: Park branch where they were quote meticulously racked and kept

855
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: in climate controlled environment. The rest were in a private

856
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: wine vault in domain NAPA. Now I'll give you one hint.

857
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: They were auctioned off at a sixty percent discount in

858
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: the appraised value. So time to play prices precise?

859
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 6: How many bottles in total?

860
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: Nineteen hundred bottles?

861
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 5: Okay, at a sixty percent discount?

862
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: Sixty percent? Oh, you're right, forty percent discount. They sold

863
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: at sixty percent of the appraised value. So it's California wine.

864
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: So it's tricky. You know, it's not known for superintensive wine.

865
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 2: And they've had lots of wildfires.

866
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: That's true.

867
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: Well I didn't think nineteen hundred.

868
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 6: I mean I drink one for me.

869
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: Well, well, you got a.

870
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: Gosh, usually I have like idea. Okay, two hundred thousand,

871
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

872
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: That's a quick answer, Like how quick that a sor? Right,

873
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: I'm gonna write these down. Okay, data bids two hundred

874
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: fifty thousand. Now the rules of that other game show

875
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: are in place, so you could bid one dollar.

876
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 5: Oh, I think I'm going to go higher. I'm going

877
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 5: to say one point six million.

878
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: One point six millions. Now we don't kind of wind

879
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: Tracy drinks.

880
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 2: Are we talking about nineteen.

881
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: Hundred nineteen California wine? Remember soon, remember the rules. Now,

882
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: don't give him head lower.

883
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to go one hundred and twenty thousand.

884
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: My god, it's pretty close. One hundred and thirty thousand.

885
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: Oh, come on, this is bad, Joe.

886
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: When's the well you figure? I mean, one hundred dollars

887
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: a bottle will get you to one hundred and ninety thousand.

888
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 4: So that's basically this is bad collateral collateral and maybe

889
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 4: I should have liquidity.

890
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: So we recently did an.

891
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 4: Episode of the podcast with the CFO of core Weave,

892
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 4: which is building a GPU cloud. A week later, there's

893
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 4: a really good story. They borrowed two and a half

894
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 4: billion and they put up in video chips. Yeah, so

895
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 4: it came out after the episode. But chips is the

896
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 4: new collateral.

897
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: So you can just pull those chips out of the server,

898
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: I guess apparently.

899
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still work.

900
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: That's crazy. Well, Tru and Tracy, what a great.

901
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

902
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 1: We thank you. It was very fun.

903
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: I know that's just a lot of.

904
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: What goes up. We'll be back next week. Until then,

905
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal website and app,

906
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if

907
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: you took the time to rate and review the show

908
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: so more listeners can find us. You can find us

909
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 2: on Twitter, follow me at Wildona Hiring. Mike Reagan is

910
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: at read Anonymous. You can also follow Bloomer Podcasts at podcasts.

911
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: What Goes Up is produced by Stacey Long and our

912
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: head of podcasts is Sage Pauman. Thanks for listening. We'll

913
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 2: see you next week.