1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio throughout 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: my childhood. A pair of framed family trees hung on 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: an upstairs wall in Grandman Pause colonial style home, white 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: with black shutters, in the wealthy, largely Jewish suburb of Scarsdale, 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: a short commute from New York City. I'd go up 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: to them as a boy and stare at the rows 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: of generations spanning the two sheets of beige paper, feeling 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: a sense of pride. This is where I come from. 9 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: I think, this is who I am. That's Adam Frankel 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: reading from his first book, a memoir called The Survivors, 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: a story of war, inheritance, and healing full disclosure. I 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: met Adam because I sat next to a cousin of 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: his after I gave the keynote lecture at my alma mater. 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: After Adam's cousin heard what my memoir Inheritance is about, 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: she told me about her cousin, Adam, who had a 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: similar story, though our details are very different. When I 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: met Adam, I felt a powerful sense of connection. This 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: is a story of paternity, love, and belonging. I'm Danny Shapiro, 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: and this is Family Secrets, the secrets that are kept 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. I grew up on the 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Upper west Side of New York. You know, it's a 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: pretty privileged upbringing, and for a long time when I 24 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: thought about it, I thought about it in that sort 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: of happy, privileged way. I grew up on pre war 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: building in the corner of West End. I went to 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: Trinity School in Old New York City, private school. I 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: was bar Mits footed ben a Jesserin on the Upper 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: west Side, sort of a liberal, progressive Jewish bastion on 30 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: the Upper west Side. If you'd asked me when I 31 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: was a kid, when I was a teenager, how is 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: your childhood? I would have just said I had a 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: great childhood, you know. It was just so I was 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: so lucky, fortunate, loved by my mom and dad, my grandparents, 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: and I still feel that way in many respects, even 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: though everything I've learned later sort of cast it in 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: a different light. So your parents separated when you were 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: four before several years later. Interesting that you would characterize 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: your childhood is happy even with that's a pretty traumatic 40 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: thing to kid, is you know, I think, uh, it 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: really wasn't until relatively recently, until I started revisiting my childhood, 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: that I realized there were these painful periods, and there 43 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: was much going on that I was absorbing but wasn't 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: fully dialed into, and my parents divorced. For a long 45 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: time I didn't think about Now, when I think about it, 46 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: it pains me to think about myself as a little kid. 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: At times, I think about fragments of memories of my 48 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: parents fighting, doors slamming, But I tried to block that 49 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: out as a kid, And I'm quite sure. I mean 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm certain because I remember people asking me, how is it, 51 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, not frequently, but you know, occasionally coming up 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: and me sort of referencing a very happy childhood as 53 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: if none of that had ever happened. So describe your 54 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: mom for me. My mother is, let's complicated. Um, she's 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: an extraordinary human being. She is warm and loving and 56 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: passionate and artistic and incredibly intelligent, deeply concerned with the world, 57 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: the arts. And she's also struggled with mental health issues 58 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: all her life. Um, you know, she's battle depression all 59 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: her life. Before I was born, she attempted suicide, was 60 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: hospitalized for a couple of weeks for it. Um. She 61 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: overdosed on pills, and she told me she would have 62 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: died if a friend hadn't come across her in time 63 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: and rush her to the hospital. My dad is just 64 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: a prince of a man. He is genuinely and earnestly 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: interested in people and the world. He is a book 66 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: lover who you know, his great hobby and one of 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: the great passions of his life is waking up at 68 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: the crack of dawn in Westchester and going to some 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: far flung estate sale somewhere so he can scour the 70 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: used books that are um you know, that are being sold, 71 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: hoping that he'll find something that is inappropriately priced. So 72 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,679 Speaker 1: he's hoping he'll find a treasure that somebody didn't realize 73 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: was a treasure. This is his great passion, um and 74 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: growing up he you know, he was just as supportive 75 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: and loving a dad as you'd want. I mean, as 76 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: whenever I was interested in something, he would just feed 77 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: those interests regardless I was interested in they spall and 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: old timers like Shoelace, Joe Jackson. He'd take me to 79 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: the New York Historical Society and we look up newspapers 80 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: of the ninety nine White Sox. I was interested in 81 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: Custer's Last Stand, and we'd go, you know, look, go 82 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: to the library and get take out books on it, 83 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: and uh and whatever I was interested in. He he 84 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: would just feed those interests in every way he knew 85 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: how um and his family. So he's one of one 86 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: of three children my grandparents, who I always called Grandma Pa. 87 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: On that side, we're a big part of my childhood. 88 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: My Paw I was incredibly close to, and and my 89 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: grandma too, and my my grandma lived into her nineties. 90 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: Um My, my pap passed away when I was in college. 91 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: And he was just in a incredibly warm and also 92 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: deeply committed public servant, not in a formal sense. He 93 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: never served for any length of time and government He 94 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: had sort of appointments here and there, but he was 95 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: a part time speechwriter for at least Stevenson and Hubert 96 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: Humphrey and George McGovern and um, all of these sorts 97 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: of great progressive champions in the mid century. And so 98 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: I grew up wanting to be like Pa. You, at 99 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: one point in your book, describe a difference in the 100 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: way that you're connected to your dad's side of the 101 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: family and your mom's Can you talk a little bit 102 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: about about your Roseta And yeah, so my mom's family 103 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: are Holocaust survivor. So my mom is one of four children. UM. 104 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: Her parents what I always called Bobby and Zeta, we're 105 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors. Zeida was a prisoner a number of different camps, 106 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: including dot Cow. My bubby spent much of the war 107 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: in the woods of Eastern Europe with the Partisans and 108 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: the Jewish resistance. UM. And they were just a force 109 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: in my child pod. Zaida passed away only a couple 110 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: of years ago. UM, still going to his watch repair 111 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: shop in New Haven practically till the day he died. 112 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: Um Uh. And family gatherings when I was young, Uh, 113 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: you know the whole cause Ada and his and his 114 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: two sisters survived the war. Actually his father did too, 115 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: but his father passed away decades ago now. But when 116 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: I was growing up, he and his sibling, that the 117 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: survivor generation and their spouses and their families. We have 118 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: these sprawling Russia shawna um, young kid poor. Every Jewish 119 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: holiday we'd all get together, pass over sprawling affairs. And 120 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: that family was just a force. You know. They were 121 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: immigrants they were scrappy. But also I don't know, I 122 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: mean thick Yiddish accent, never had an education. I mean Zaida, 123 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: but Bubby got her g e d. In the nineteen seventies, 124 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: went back because she was never given the chance to 125 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: graduate from high school because of the war. And Zaida. 126 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: I don't even know the last grade Zaida had. Maybe 127 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, um it's a middle equivalent in middle school. 128 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: But one of the smartest people I've ever met in 129 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: my life in terms of raw intelligence. But thinking about 130 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: them growing up versus my dad's side, you know, who 131 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: had gone to Northwestern and worked for these presidential candidates. Uh, 132 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: it was just a very There were two examples and 133 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: two very different ways of being, ways of living, experiences, opportunities. 134 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: Particularly on Adam's mother's side of the family, there was 135 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: the sense that a lot was unsaid, hidden away. There 136 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: was just stuff you simply didn't talk about. Secrets are 137 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: a family tradition, without a doubt, there have been secrets 138 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: in my family as long as I can remember being 139 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: a part of my parentsman family, I have remembered there 140 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: being secrets. Did you know that as a child, or 141 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: sense it that there were things that you didn't know. 142 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: Every family gathering on the on that side of the 143 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: family was sort of an exercise in an experience of 144 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: things said and unsaid, family members talking in English, suddenly 145 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: switching to Yiddish when they didn't want the kids to 146 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: know something. You know, somebody mentioning something that happened in 147 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: the war, somebody asked a question. Conversation ends. There was 148 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: also a very big secret which I got glimpses of. 149 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: Um I hear people talk about, but in that same 150 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: vein which shut off the conversation as soon as I 151 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: asked too many questions. Which was my family name itself. 152 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: Adam's middle name is Parrotsman, his bubby and Zaida's last 153 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: name his mother's name. That was the name they came 154 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: to this country with the name of the watch repair 155 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: shop that his Zaida ran for decades in New Haven, 156 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: Parrotsman Jewelers, it was called. It was the name on 157 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: all his government identification and it wasn't the name Zada 158 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: was born with. It was a name he either bought 159 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: or stole in a displaced since camp in Germany after 160 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: the war, under circumstances he was shady about. And then 161 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: there was a matter of a cousin who needed surgery 162 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: and was taken to Israel so no one would know 163 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: she was sick, or the cousin who was never told 164 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: she was color blind. You know, I think secrets are 165 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: a part of every family, but there is something kind 166 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: of very pronounced about the way in which polycaust survivor 167 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: families sort of tend to their secrets. So you grew 168 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: up on the Upper West Side, you go to Trinity, 169 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: you have this quote unquote charmed life, you know, through 170 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: high school, and you go to college and you're aspiring 171 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: to our emulating the Frankel side of your family. You 172 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: graduate from college and go into politics. Yeah, like the 173 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: generations before you. Yea, at some point in your twenties, 174 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: tell me when you're living in New York City. Yeah, 175 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: I was, you know Junior. He tried on the Carry campaign, 176 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: and after Carry lost, you know, for um, I moved 177 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: back to New York City and was staying with my 178 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: mother at the time. You know, I was helping Ted Sorenson, 179 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: was President Kennedy's speechwriter and close advisor on his memoirs, 180 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: and I was sort of living at home while I 181 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: was doing that, spending more time with my mother than 182 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: I had since high school since I love for college. 183 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: And at some point while I was there, I just 184 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: started asking questions about family history. And it was totally innocuous. 185 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have sort of deep suspicious I mean, looking back, 186 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: there are dots I didn't connect, there are these sorts 187 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: of things, but I didn't have any sort of burning 188 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: questions or suspicions. I just wanted to ask some family history. 189 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: And why did you and dad get divorced? I asked 190 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: my mom and she said, you know, why do you 191 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: want to know the answer to that? You know that 192 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I kept pushing and pushing, and 193 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately she says, well, I never really wanted 194 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: to marry your father. Again, not really an answer to 195 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: the question. And so this sort of thing I kind 196 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: of probe and I get these answers that didn't. I 197 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: go to my father and I said, why do you 198 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: and mom get divorced? And he said, oh, your mom 199 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: had an affair with Jason, and I sort of that 200 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: was just a bombshell to me because Jason, a man 201 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: in the book I called Jason Black, was a presence 202 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: in my life growing up. He was a quote unquote 203 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: family friend, I'd known him all my life. He was 204 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: one of my mother's professors in grad school. I'd stayed 205 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: with his daughter in Los Angeles at the two thousand 206 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: convention Democratic National Convention. I stayed with Jason's mother in 207 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Los Angeles when I had a tiny part in Robin 208 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: Williams movie called Toys. You know, when I was in 209 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: middle school. My immediate question my dad was, how do 210 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: you know him? Your son? And he said, oh, I 211 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: remember the night of conception, didn't didn't miss a beat. 212 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: I said, oh, that's well, kind of interesting, all right, 213 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: but okay, you know, you seem very confident about that. 214 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: And I go back to my mother. Dad said, you 215 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: had an affair with Jason. And the whole thing quickly 216 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: started to unravel. And I asked, you know, did it 217 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: begin after I was born? No, okay, And I'm sort 218 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: of remember sitting with her in her apartment, apartment i'd 219 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: grown up and grown up in sort of having this 220 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: conversation and feeling, you know, like you're getting closer to 221 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: just a crazy revelation. But I had no idea, you know, 222 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: going into this. I thought I was going to get 223 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: the same reassurance that my dad had given me. You know, 224 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: my dad had been almost dismissive of my question. Yes, 225 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: of course you're my son. I remember the night of conception, 226 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: which what everyone thinks about that answer, like he he 227 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: seemed very confident delivering that, and I sort of just assumed, 228 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: I don't. It didn't even dawn on me that my 229 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,359 Speaker 1: mom might actually not give an answer that was this reassuring. 230 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: But I just kept pushing and I was, you know, 231 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: I was asking her, how do you know, um, dad's 232 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, my my father, Like, who's who's my father? 233 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: I kept asking this question, who's my father? And at 234 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: one point she says, you know, Um, first she was like, 235 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: why do you need to know that? You know, she says, 236 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: Stephen is the man who raised you. Why do you 237 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: need anything more than that? And then I, you know, 238 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: that was I think. I think that was the answer 239 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: that just kind of blew me over because I realized 240 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: at that point, Holy Ship, this conversation is just going 241 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: in a direction I never could have possibly anticipated, and 242 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: she just she kept refusing to answer the question I got. 243 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: I started getting very upset or and and finally sort 244 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: of kept demanding, like, who's my who's my Father's my father? 245 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: And she said, Jason, who do you think it is? 246 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: I should you know? Who do you think? So? I 247 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: don't know for sure this and that, who do you 248 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: think it is? I kept insisting, you know, I remember, um, 249 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: mother is a sense who do you think it is? 250 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: Even if you never did a DNA, because I could 251 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: get the sense she was hiding behind this kind of 252 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: veneer of the lack of certainty, medical certainty or something. 253 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: So who do you think it is? Jason? Okay? That 254 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: answer just um totally floored me. And I remember looking 255 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: looking down at my hand. I mean, it's still recent enough. 256 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean that conversation was in two thousand six, but 257 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: the impact of it lasted so many years after and 258 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: still still lasts that I can I sort of remember, 259 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: I can put myself in a frame of mind of 260 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: what that did to me, And I just sort of 261 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: had this experience then, as I had many times later 262 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: of just like looking at my hands, looking at my body, 263 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: looking in a mirror, and just feeling like, who is this? 264 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: What is this body that I'm inhabiting? This doesn't feel 265 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: like this is not it doesn't feel like my body anymore. 266 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: It feels like a stranger's body. Um, and I it 267 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: just totally upended my and shook my sense of identity, 268 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: my sense of self in ways that I had not 269 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: even faintly begun to grasp in that moment. I mean, 270 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: I don't think it took me many many years to 271 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: begin to process just how devastating a revelation that was, 272 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: and that in that moment I didn't even know how 273 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: to process it. And in that moment, you were how 274 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: old we'll be right back. The trauma expert Rachel Yehuda, 275 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: who Adam interviews years later for his book, describes trauma 276 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: as best understood as a water shed event that defines 277 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: your life and divides it into a before and after. 278 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: It strikes me that for Adam, this moment of realizing 279 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: that his beloved dad and his dad's family, whom he 280 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: emulated and so greatly admired, were not his biological family, 281 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: that he comes from someone and somewhere else entirely, that 282 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: he hasn't known the truth of himself all his life, 283 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: is precisely that traumatic watershed event, the divide, as Dr 284 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: Yehuda describes it, between before and after. I think it 285 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: sort of gave me permission in a way to acknowledge 286 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: the pain of what I'd experienced and to find a 287 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: way forward because I thought about trauma UM in many 288 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: other ways. First of all, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors, right, nothing, 289 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: And it is true, there's no comparison to be made 290 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: between that and any other, you know, anyone any other 291 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: form of trauma apart from genocide or war and conflict. 292 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: And in a time where we have people going and 293 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and overseas, that's trauma. You know, 294 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: when when I thought, when I think about trauma PTSD, 295 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: I think about that, I think about gun violence, all 296 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: of these sorts of things, and I was very reluctant 297 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: to think about this as a trauma. For that reason, 298 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: I didn't want to, would never and still would never 299 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: try and compare. It's not about comparing any of these things. 300 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: It's about just acknowledging that there are different forms of trauma. Uh. 301 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: And I was wary to do that. It almost felt, 302 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, indulgent self pity, I don't know something, um. 303 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: But when when Rachel said that to me, it did 304 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: it like it sort of lightened me up. And how 305 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: many years had elapsed between this before and after moment 306 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: was your mother and that conversation with Rachel's a decade. 307 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: A decade, right, it's a decade. So you absorb this 308 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: pretty unabsorbable information about yourself and then you continue on 309 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: with your life. You don't talk about it, You don't 310 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: tell your dad, and what do you do. Well, it's 311 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: like secrets in our family. You absorbed the secret and 312 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: you move on. You don't, you don't deal with it. 313 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's that you don't ask. You know, 314 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: the family name is not the family name. Don't ask questions. 315 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: I don't tell anybody. You know. When I was a kid, 316 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: there was a story about my grandmother in the war, 317 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: was hiding in a bunker that they dug out behind 318 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: the house, and a baby was smother because the baby's 319 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: cries they feared might attract the Nazis who were sticking 320 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: their bayonets into the walls in the house while they 321 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: were in hiding. And so the baby's own mother my 322 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, one of my great aunts smothered her own child. 323 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: I'd hear this question. You start to ask questions, don't 324 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: know questions, you know, don't don't ask any more about this. 325 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, these sort of secrets, this is my frame 326 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: of reference for processing secrets, but those are other people's secrets, frankly. 327 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: And then this, so there's that layer of just sort 328 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: of when there's a secret, you don't kind of probe, 329 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: You just kind of absorb and move on. And then 330 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: there was the just the overwhelming intensity of this. I 331 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with it, and one of 332 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: my many reactions to it was fury at my mother. 333 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: Um so I more or less stopped talking to her. 334 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: She proceeded to have a very bad response to whether 335 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: it's to that and a combination of other things, you know, 336 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: But she called me up in a in a very 337 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: bad state, and I rush her along with my uncle, 338 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: and I rushed to a psychiatric emergency room because we 339 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: were fearful for that you might try to take her life. 340 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: I really just tried to bury this and move on. 341 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: Right around that same time, not you know, several months later, 342 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: I got a call from a friend of mine from 343 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: the Carry campaign, John Favreau, who had gone to work 344 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: for Barack Obama in the Senate after Carry lost and 345 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: fat we always called him Faves. Faves said, Hey, it 346 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: looks like I'm getting a deputy on the Obama campaign, 347 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: you want to join, you want to come move out 348 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: to Chicago. So I literally literally called me up while 349 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: I was leaving a therapist office with my mother because 350 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: she'd insists she pleaded with me to gum to see 351 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: a therapist with a or repair of relationship or literally 352 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: walking out and FABS calls me up and say, hey, 353 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: you know you want to move to Chicago, and I'm 354 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: thinking of at that time. This call could not be 355 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: better time to get me out of New York City. 356 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with this. First of all, 357 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: I'm inspired by Barack Obama. I want to be a 358 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: part of that, and also get me get me out 359 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: of here. I don't want to. I just need to 360 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: remove myself from this situation. And I moved to Chicago 361 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: go in March of two thousand seven, a few weeks 362 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: after Obama announced his candidacy, and I was with him 363 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: through the first term. And so for that entire time 364 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: in Chicago, I I just buried this and didn't deal 365 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: with it. I didn't tell anybody on the Obama campaign, 366 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: I mean, which is remarkable in retrospect, because I don't, 367 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, presidential campaigns are incredibly intense and the speechwriting 368 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: team was very small. I mean, the whole campaign in 369 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: the early days was small, but speechwriting team. You know, 370 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: we all sat inches feet from each other for years, literally, 371 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: and even when we weren't at work, which was all 372 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: the time, we were hanging out together. And at no 373 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: time did I um breathe a word about any of 374 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: this to anybody, And I just kind of hope nobody 375 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: would catch on that. I you know, I didn't really 376 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: talk about my parents. They didn't come to visit like 377 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: other people's parents did. And what was it like for 378 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: you during that time? I mean, in your book you 379 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: write about running a lot, and you know you're you're mad, 380 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: like trying to manage your own identity crisis and anxiety. 381 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: To talk a little bit about that, Like you can 382 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: push something away, but ultimately the harder you push it away, 383 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: the more force with which it returns. Absolutely, and it 384 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: would there's no way to um deny hide pushed down 385 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: something like this. I mean, you can only succeed for 386 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: so long, but it's a race against time before it 387 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: starts popping up in all kinds of ways, and and 388 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: and it popped up in all kinds of ways over 389 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: that period of time. I mean, at one point, I remember, 390 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: I remember sitting in an airport bookstore just sort of crouching, 391 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: paralyzed with indecision and uncertainty about what book to buy. 392 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I had these weird just anything I felt 393 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: um at times, like I just I didn't know what 394 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: I thought about anything like my like this had rattled 395 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: me and shaken me. It's such a profound way, this 396 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: revelation that I didn't know who I was or what 397 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: I thought about anything anymore. It's been hours online, you know, 398 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: at night, sometimes going through Facebook and googling Jason's family, 399 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: my half siblings, just staring at these photographs, and I'd 400 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: go for runs to try and make myself feel better, 401 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: and it would work for a short period of time, 402 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: but then all this stuff would start creeping back in 403 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: the anxiety. It was like it felt like a like 404 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: a like a chronic panic attack at times. So during 405 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: that time, you're you're in this kind of protracted panic attack. 406 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: What happens? How do how do you what's your next 407 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: step in terms of either facing this or finding some 408 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: way to continue to absorb it. You know, I don't 409 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: know that I would have had the courage to face 410 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: it had it not sort of smacked me over the head. 411 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think what what end up happening was 412 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: I started, um dating somebody who was now my wife, Stephanie. 413 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: We were dating for you know, a few months, and 414 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: I broke up with her, and I was just sort 415 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: of heartbroken after breaking up with her and sort of 416 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: puzzled and about why why I broken up with her 417 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: and going through all these kinds of emotions and stuff, 418 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: and tried to backtrack and called her up to try 419 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: and win her back, and as part of that conversation 420 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: with her, you know, said look, there's just like a 421 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: lot going on with me, okay. Um. So she she 422 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: had not known. She she didn't know. I didn't tell Steph. 423 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: It was really a secret that I just carried alone, 424 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: and I was just afraid to talk about it. I 425 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: felt like talking about it made it real, so I 426 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: kept it to myself. Um, And so I shared this 427 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: with Steph, and Steph very wisely suggested that I see 428 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: a therapist and start just trying to deal with some 429 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: of the stuff. And so I did, And that was 430 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: the sort of began the very early stages of me 431 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: just beginning to face it. Part of what Adam must face, 432 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: of course, is the fact that his biological father, Jason 433 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: Black family Friend, has been hiding in plain sight all 434 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: his life. He's spent time with Jason, spent time with 435 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: Jason's own children, his half siblings, spent time with Jason's mother, 436 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: in fact, his genetic grandmother. What was he supposed to 437 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: make of this and how was he supposed to metabolize it? 438 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: For a long long time, he worked to understand the 439 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: mechanisms of this secret, but not to share it, not 440 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: with his dad, not with Jason. In a sense, he 441 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: was now keeping the very secret that had been kept 442 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: from him. The idea of broaching the subject that my 443 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: father was unthinkable. When I at first had the conversation 444 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: with my mom, I said, does Dad know? And she 445 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: said no, it would, you know, break his heart or 446 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: destroy him or something like that. And I thought you 447 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: was right. So I was terrified of my dad finding out. 448 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: I every conversation with him that I had from when 449 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: I was in Chicago and d C. While he lived 450 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: in New York. You know, I felt like we're just 451 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: we're having these surface conversations. But I was trying to 452 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: make sure that somehow, in some way, you know, this 453 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: crazy secret didn't kind of spill out because he'd ask 454 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: a question, I'd give an answer, and somehow it would 455 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: lead to that. I was just terrified of the average 456 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: when I'd see him, the same thing I was. I 457 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: was just constantly worried about this and any interaction it 458 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: just felt with him and with my grandma, who was 459 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: still alive at the time, and who I'd have, you know, 460 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: regular Saturday check ins with my you know, eighties something 461 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: then I need something in your old grandmother. I just 462 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: felt like I was keeping a secret from them, this 463 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: horrible secret from them. I felt like complicit in this 464 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: whole thing. I just couldn't imagine. It was unthinkable to 465 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: me to to raise it with my dad, and so 466 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: I kept the secret from him for for almost a decade, 467 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: and reaching out to Jason only came about, you know, 468 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 1: many years after I just I learned the secret only 469 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: after I was married and we were thinking about having kids, 470 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: and I said, you know, look, I first of all, 471 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: I've gone through all this, this painful experience. Let's just 472 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: make sure it's not all for not that like I 473 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: haven't been that. My mom didn't give me the you 474 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: know what she thought was the truthful answer. But actually 475 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: wasn't that somehow I am my my dad's son, so 476 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: and also I want the medical history. So let's just 477 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: go sit down with him and let's get a paternity test. 478 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: So we did that. I reached out to him out 479 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: of the blue, well I thought it was out of 480 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: the bay. I sent him an emails there was along 481 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: the lines of, you know, this may seem like it's 482 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: coming out of the blue. I don't know whether my 483 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: mother is shared any of this with you, but you 484 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: know she disclosed a secret. And would you be willing 485 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: to have a paternity test for these reasons? And he 486 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: wrote back this just supremely confident reply of well, I'm 487 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: quite sure you'll have a positive result to the test, 488 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: so you should decide whether you want to live in 489 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: the safety of uncertainty rather than the burden of the 490 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: infinitive knowledge or something like that. Some like very kind 491 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: of abstract philosophical response, and you know whatever. So I 492 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: was like, yes, let's just get this attorney test done, um, 493 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: And we went to meet him, and stuff came with 494 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: me and he opened the door and I hadn't seen 495 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: him in years. I mean, I grew up, I know 496 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: what he looks like. Of course I grew up, grown 497 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: up um seeing him, but I hadn't seen him in many, 498 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: many years. And I also I hadn't seen him with 499 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: any of this context. So when the last time I'd 500 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: seen him, the thought of him as as my biological 501 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: father wasn't even anywhere in my consciousness. But when he 502 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: opened the door, both Steph and I were just sort 503 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: of stunned because I miss spinning image. And I mean 504 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: we we dressed similarly, we have similar mannerisms, our hair 505 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: was cut some, I mean it was uncanny um and 506 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: and we proceeded to go get a patorney test and 507 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: it came back positive. For a while after that initial 508 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: lunch with Jason and where we went and got the 509 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: paternity test done, we would have this regular contact, and 510 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: I felt I wanted to get to know him a 511 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: little bit in this context and sort of see, I 512 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: didn't know what I thought of him. I'd known him 513 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: kind of all my life in one way, but not 514 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: at all in another way, and I just sort of 515 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: wanted to figure out what I thought of this whole situation. 516 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: I mixed in with that, we're feelings of almost betrayal 517 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: against my dad that I was even sitting across the 518 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: table from this man um and so I carried that. 519 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: But I did want to get to know him a 520 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: little bit because I didn't know what I thought of him. 521 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: And they were, you know, a strange conversation. I mean, 522 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: on the one hand, we're having these we have these talks, 523 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: and almost all of them took place in the Carlisle 524 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: Hotel on the Upper East Side. I mean, it's like 525 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: that of some Woody Allen movie or something. And I'd 526 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: find myself laughing at his jokes from time time, feeling, 527 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, I'd almost be seduced, and there is this 528 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: sense of kinship. It's it was unmistakable. And then he 529 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: would start revealing things to me about his perspective, how 530 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: he had seen my mom, how I came to be, 531 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: And at one point he said, you know you were 532 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: you were wanted, and I sort of took me aback, 533 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: and I, what do you mean wanted? Your planned pregnancy? 534 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: So I sort of took a beat because he was 535 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: married at the time, he had kids, my mom was 536 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: married to my dad. I said, okay, so I go 537 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: to my mother after that, and I say, Jason said, 538 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: I was wanted, and my mother says, well, I wouldn't 539 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: say it was my idea, okay. Um. So then I 540 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: go back to Jason with that information. I mean, this 541 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: was the whole process, was just sort of triangulating and 542 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: trying to piece this together because I would never get 543 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: the whole story from anybody. And I say to Jason 544 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: over the next lunch, I say, my mother said, I 545 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: was your idea. Why did you you know? Why why 546 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: did you want to have me? And he said to totally, nonchalantly, casually, 547 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: almost the idea of having a secret baby appeal to 548 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: my sense of mystery and the erotic mystery and the 549 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: erotic who speaks like that? And I just, I mean, 550 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't even know. I still don't even know what 551 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: to say to that. My life and existence is pawn 552 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: in this man's intellectual like game. I don't know. Um. 553 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: And it's darker than that, because you know, he also 554 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: said to me, at one point, you know, I was 555 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: attracted to your mother because I was attracted broken women. Um. 556 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: He knew that she you know, she'd been hospitalized for 557 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: suicide attempt a couple of years before they met. And 558 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: later my mother shared with me in very painful and 559 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: personal terms the their relationship. While it ultimately transitioned into 560 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: something that she would describe as caring, I think began 561 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: in a very ugly way when she was when my 562 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: mother was his student. So I learned all of this stuff, 563 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: and I over time, you know, I did figure out 564 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: what I thought about him, and you know, it wasn't great. Ultimately, 565 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: I decided that the only way that I could move 566 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: forward with my life would be to talk to my dad. 567 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: So tell me about talking to your dad, and also 568 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: about what your fear was about talking to your dad. 569 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: For almost a decade, it was unthinkable to me to 570 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: talk to my dad about any of this. It wasn't 571 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: that I know my dad loves me. It wasn't that 572 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: I thought he would kind of pick up and leave 573 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: or something, or you know, be hateful or angry at 574 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: me or something. I never thought that. It was much 575 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: more subtle but very frightening to me, which was I 576 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: worried that he would just look at me a little differently, 577 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: and that nobody would even it would be totally indiscernible 578 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: to everyone except the two of us, that you wouldn't 579 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: know that it did mean something that I would know 580 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: that he would just it would be a glance, you know, 581 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: just be like a tone of voice or just something 582 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: change in any change. Honestly, any change that I could attribute, 583 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: I would attribute to that. Uh, you know, I was 584 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: terrified of that. And no matter, you know, even if 585 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: he would say it doesn't change a thing, but I 586 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: could send something in his voice had shifted or whatever. 587 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: That's what I was really terrified of. And therapists over 588 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: time would kind of broach the subject with me. I 589 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: think it was obvious to them earlier because I saw, 590 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of therapists between living in d 591 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: C in New York, and they had raised this, and 592 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: I had it was clear to them earlier that much 593 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: much earlier than it was to me, that I might 594 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: need to do this, that I might need to talk 595 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: to my dad about it. And eventually I came around 596 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: to that. I mean, it was a very long time 597 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: before I felt open to that, but I realized that 598 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: this was just a blockage in my life, that it 599 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: was there's no way for me to move on with 600 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: my life, and that it will continue to haunt me 601 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: just kind of distract absorbed my whole emotional psychological being 602 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: with great consequence. I feared not just for me, but 603 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: like my wife, our family, my kids, my professional career, everything. 604 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it's so big. The spillover 605 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: effect is huge in a life. I took the train 606 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: up to Hastings and he picked me up at the 607 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: train station. Uh. And I mean I started tearing up 608 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: in the car, and he started to get really worried. 609 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: But I didn't want to get into it in the car, 610 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: So let's just get back to your house. And his wife, 611 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: my stepmom, Helen, had stepped out. I think she she 612 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: knew there was some kind of important conversation. UM, I 613 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: shouldn't know what, but she'd given us some space. So 614 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: we're talking, and uh, I kind of gove right in 615 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: and I said, um, you know a number of years ago, 616 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: you may remember that, um, my uncle and I Mendela 617 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: Um took my mom to the psychiatric emergency room. Yes, 618 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: he remembered that. I told him that at the time 619 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: and said, well, the reason um, that that we did that, 620 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: the reason that she'd had that kind of break is 621 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: that I basically stopped talking to her. I was furious 622 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: at her. And oh, okay, and the reason that I 623 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: was furious at her. Uh, And I had a trouble 624 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: kind of getting getting the words out, but I said, 625 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: you the reason I the reason I was so furious 626 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: at her was because she told me that I'm Jason 627 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: Black's biological son. And I'm bawling at this point. I 628 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: just hear him say uh huh. He's kind of processing 629 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: the information, and then I hear him say I know, 630 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm like, I'm sobbing. I'm listening to him, 631 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: but I'm just, you know, my tears are just pouring 632 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: down my face. Um, and I'm not I'm not even 633 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: sure I'm hearing him right, like what through the you know, 634 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: you know? And he's looking at me, nodding, and he's saying, 635 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I know, I know. He said, I've 636 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: always known it was possible, and I'm just I'm just staggered. 637 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: You know what you have I've always known as possible. 638 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: And then he says, and I made a decision a 639 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: long time ago. It doesn't matter either way. You're my son. 640 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: And then I gave him the biggest hug. But any 641 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: kids ever given their dad? And he said, well, now 642 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: at least I know not to come to you for 643 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: a blood transfusion. You know, I even now it's just 644 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: stagger's I mean, we I talked about it with my dad, 645 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: and it's just the other thing that I regret about 646 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: this whole saga is that I just didn't talk to 647 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: him straight out of the gate. I mean, it's just 648 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: what a what unnecessary, needless heartache I created for myself, 649 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: and just strains and other relationships because they manifested as 650 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: a result, because all this stuff was wound up because 651 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: I hadn't I hadn't talked to my dad about it, 652 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: because that was such an important piece of moving through this, 653 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: and he he suspected it all along, you know. Of 654 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: course he knew about the affair. He's the one who 655 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: told me about it. And I learned that the reason 656 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: that he had said to me UM that he remembered 657 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: the night of conception was because he and my mother 658 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: had stopped having a physical relationship by that point in 659 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: their marriage, with the exception of one night during the 660 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: summer of UM which in retrospect, my dad and I 661 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: think was probably an act of misdirection by Jason and 662 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: my mother too. UM so doubt as to who my 663 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: father was, and he said that he considered getting a 664 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: paternity test, but he decided, he decided he didn't need 665 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: the results at that point. You know that first, that 666 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: conversation just unlocked the whole thing for me, and I 667 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: finally felt liberated to talk to people about this, to 668 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: open up to myself about it, to talk to starting 669 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: with a small group but widening out friends, family, um. 670 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: Because it just hadn't felt right. I think part of 671 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: the reason I kept it such a secret was it 672 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: didn't feel right to tell anyone if my dad didn't know. 673 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: But once he knew, then there were different considerations of play. 674 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: When I learned the whole thing, there was a shadow 675 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: of biography that emerged, of dots that I hadn't known 676 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: exists to connect. But then my dad even saying, you know, 677 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: I'd considered a paternity test, It's sort of like, hey, 678 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: I mean, this is my life, Like, this is this 679 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: is my life, and all this information has been withheld 680 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: from me about my own life. This isn't anyone else's life, 681 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: Like I have a right to information about my life. 682 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: But like every story of a massive family secret, there 683 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: are layers and layers that unfold over time. What has 684 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: been hidden for so long doesn't just end with a 685 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: revelation tied up in a neat and tidy bow. Adam 686 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: had family members who didn't know about any of this 687 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: until just very recently. The imminent publication of his book 688 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: necessitated that he and his dad reach out, So his 689 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: dad called his sister, Nancy, Adam's aunt. She was very 690 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: empathetic and understanding, and then they hung up. She called 691 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 1: and Nancy called my dad back a few hours later 692 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: and shared with him a story. And the story was, 693 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: when I was very young, I must have been around 694 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: four or five or so, after coming back from a 695 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: family trip to Bermuda, where I go growing up, I'd 696 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: always go to Bermuda with my grandmom, Paw and my dad. 697 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: My pa was sitting with my aunt Nancy, and my 698 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: Pa said to Nancy, you know, it's possible Adam is 699 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: not Steve's son. But and this is very similar to 700 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: what my dad had said to me. He said, but 701 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter one way or another. He's my grandson, 702 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: he's my other child, and I love him. He'll always 703 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: a dore him. And uh so you get that gift 704 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: from I got a gift from beyond the grave. I mean, 705 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: it was just extraordinary because I never thought I would 706 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: ever have an answer to the question of how they 707 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 1: would have responded. And then Pa. I mean, it's almost 708 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: as if PA did it deliberately, just planted a seed 709 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: without any conscious sense. I mean, you know, no, he 710 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: was a brilliant guy and the most empathetic, emotionally intelligent. 711 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: I mean, he was a way just an incredible human being. 712 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: And you know, a part of me does wonder whether 713 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: he just kind of left it there knowing that maybe 714 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: someday that piece of information might be useful in some way. 715 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: When my dad called and told me he shared that story, 716 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: I practically collapsed on the street in tears. Adam didn't 717 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: set out to write The Survivors to share his story 718 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: with the world. He initially started working on a book 719 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: about his four grandparents, Bubby and Zeta, his Grandma and Pa, 720 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: and their experiences, but as he wrote, he sensed that 721 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: it would be helpful to write about his own experience 722 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: as well. After all, whether you're a writer or not, expressive, 723 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: writing writing about feelings that are weighing on us helps. 724 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: It really does. It has physical benefits. There's ample and 725 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: very rigorous scientific research and evidence pointing to this. As 726 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: I started writing about it, it became overwhelmingly clear to 727 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: me that writing about this, you know, was essential to 728 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: my healing and being able to move on and just processing. 729 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: And I mean part of the part of what was 730 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: so difficult for me was that there was it was 731 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: like a jumble of information that I didn't know how 732 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: to disentangle the relationship with Jason, these crazy comments that 733 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,240 Speaker 1: he's making to me about my mom and this information 734 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: my mom sharing my identity and my dad and how 735 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,439 Speaker 1: does all this stuff fit together? Who am I? And 736 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: when it's just in your head? It was just where 737 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: in my head? It was like a jumble of information 738 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: that I didn't know how to make sense of that. 739 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: The process of writing it allows you to understand it, 740 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: or allowed me to understand it and tease out the 741 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: different threads see how they are connected um and ultimately 742 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: kind of repair my sense of self in the process. 743 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: The last section of the book is called Healing, and 744 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: you use as a quote, as sort of an epigraph 745 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: for that section an ancient Greek inscription on the Temple 746 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: of Apollo at Delphi and the phrases know thyself, What 747 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: does that now mean to you? In light of everything 748 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: that you've discovered and absorbed and processed, and is knowing 749 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: yourself what is ultimately healing. I think for me, knowing 750 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: myself has allowed me to pursue healing. I feel now 751 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: more grounded and sure of who I am than maybe 752 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: ever in my whole life. I think there was a 753 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: time before this revelation where I might have thought I was, 754 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: but it was, you know, on shaky ground. And then 755 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: there was a period after this revelation where I felt 756 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: the ground shaking, And now I can I know all that, 757 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: I have all this information, and it is who I am, 758 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,240 Speaker 1: all of it, you know. And that was part of 759 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: my way through It was kind of accepting and recognizing that, Ah, 760 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not just the product of the parts 761 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: of my family story that I want to be a 762 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: part of. A product of that, you know, the my 763 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: the heroic Holocaust survivors experience, or you know, my family 764 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: members and the Franklin and minnoside who were public servants 765 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: and and you know, contributed to the life of this country. 766 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,879 Speaker 1: I was very proud of, and I'm very proud of. 767 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm a product of all of that. I'm also a 768 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 1: product of some ugliness in the relationship between my mother 769 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: and Jason. I'm a product of the cruelty of mental 770 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: mental illness that my mother has struggled with for much 771 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 1: of her life. You know, I'm a product of all 772 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: of it, you know, good, bad, ugly, heroic, and some 773 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: of it, I don't know, shameful, some of it behavior 774 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: that that that it's hard for me to, at least 775 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: when I think about Jason forgive. But it's who I am. 776 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: And you know, I can't do anything about that now, 777 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 1: and I'm okay with that. That's that's fine, you know, 778 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: that's okay. It took me a long time to get 779 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: to this point, but here I am, and having that 780 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: recognition and understanding is actually, in a way that I 781 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: never could have foreseen, extraordinarily empowering. I'd like to thank 782 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: Adam Frankel for sharing his story. Adam is the author 783 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: of The Survivors, a story of war, inheritance, and healing. 784 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: You can find Adam on Twitter at A P. Frankel 785 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is an iHeart Media production. Dylan Fagin is 786 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: the supervising producer and Julie Douglas and beth Anne Macaluso 787 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,280 Speaker 1: are the executive producers. If you have a family secret 788 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: you'd like to share. You can get in touch with 789 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 1: us at listener mail at Family Secrets Podcast dot com. 790 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,800 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder 791 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at FAMI 792 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book, Inheritance, visit Danny 793 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 794 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 795 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,320 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.