1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg Radio. Now, 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: if any of you guys ever seen one of these 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: bad things for real, We've burned almost every physical book 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: in the country. It's about the time you guys grow up, 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: there won't be one book left burning. The fireman used 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: to put out fires. That's a classic lie. I want 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: to know why we burn. We are not born equal. 8 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: We must be made equal by the fire, and then 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: we can be happy. Fahrenheit four for the temperature at 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: which book paper catches fire and burns. The movie is 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: based on the dystopian novel by Ray Bradberry, depicting a 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: society where books are outlawed and fireman burn every book 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: they find. Mind, it may not be as severe as burning, 14 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: but there's been a dramatic escalation in the banning of books, 15 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: and it seems to reflect culture war issues. Book challenges 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: doubled from one According to the American Library Association, the 17 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: majority of banned books focus on sexual orientation, gender identity, race, 18 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: and racism. One Texas school district is getting ready for 19 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: the start of school by removing forty one books from 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: school library shelves, including gender queer by Maya Kobab, one 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: of the most challenged books of last year. My guest 22 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: is Deborah calwell Stone, director of the American Library Association's 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: Office for Intellectual Freedom. Why do you think book bands 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: are on the rise? I think because a number of 25 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: events that have come together. One is the apparent success 26 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: of Glenn young Can in his gubernatorial campaign, leveraging a 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: parents complaint about a school book in Virginia to apparently 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: draw voters and win that election. But I also think 29 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: that there is an organized effort to attack education more broadly, 30 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: and that books have become part of that campaign. We're 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: seeing groups that call themselves parents rights groups, Moms for Liberty, 32 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: No Left Turn and Education Parents Defending Education, activate local 33 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: members local chapters to attend school board meetings, library board 34 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: meetings and demand the removal of books and being very successful. 35 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: The reasons for challenging books change over the years. Between 36 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and two thousand nine, the Harry Potter series 37 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: was frequently challenged because of allegedly promoting witchcraft and wizardry. 38 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: What do the challenges now mainly focus on. What we've 39 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: observed since is the majority of books challenged in schools 40 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: and libraries that when someone demands that they be removed 41 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: from the library shelf are books centering the lives and 42 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: experiences of lgbt q i A persons, And this includes 43 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: things like picture books that simply depict a family headed 44 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: by a same sex couple, ranging two young adult materials 45 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: dealing with coming of age stories, romance, or nonfiction books 46 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: dealing with sex education. The other trend that we're observing, 47 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: and this is tied to the current campaign around critical 48 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: race theory, or the claim that critical race theory is 49 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: being taught in K through twelve schools, is a real 50 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: effort to remove books reflecting the experience of African Americans. 51 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: Are reflecting a perspective on history by African Americans who 52 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: challenge some of the traditional narratives about racism and US 53 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: history and their experience of slavery. And so what we're 54 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: seeing is a focus on removing books that challenge the 55 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: traditional narratives that elevates the lives and the voices of 56 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: persons who have been traditionally excluded from society. But now 57 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: I've found a voice. I think we've reached a kind 58 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: of consensus here in the United States. Books written for 59 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: adults and intended for adult audiences rarely see challenges. It 60 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: never really becomes an issue. The real dispute is about 61 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: books that are available to young people, and there has 62 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: been a successful effort by a number of groups who 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: style themselves parents rights groups to make this an issue 64 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: about challenging their authority to raise their children, when in 65 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: fact the end results has been to eliminate books that 66 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: speak to the experiences of others in society who do 67 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: not share their moral or political views. Looking at the states, 68 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: Texas had the most bands, followed by Pennsylvania, Florida, and Oklahoma. 69 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: Does book banning happen on both sides of the political 70 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: spectrum because we mostly hear about it on what i'd 71 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: call the conservative side. Certainly, book challenges do come from 72 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: persons from all parts of the political spectrum, and we've 73 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: seen challenges to books that use racial epithets from individuals 74 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: and parents who believe that no young person should be 75 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: exposed to things like the N word. And so I 76 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 1: know that there's been a few school districts that have 77 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: at least eliminated from the curriculum books like Cuckleberry Fin 78 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: and even to Kill a Mockingbird, or they've moved those 79 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: books up to the high school level, and they're teaching 80 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: them at the high school level rather than the middle 81 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: school levels. And there have been efforts to remove books 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: that deal with gun violence. So you're absolutely correct that 83 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: challenges can come from all parts of the political spectrum. 84 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: But what we're seeing right now is really this coordinated 85 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: efforts by a number of conservative advocacy organizations to target 86 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: the kinds of narratives that challenge their authority that suggests 87 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: that there's a place for individuals who are not like 88 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: them in society, essentially silencing the voices of gay, queer, 89 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: transgender people African Americans who offer more honest perspective on 90 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: their experiences of racism here in American society. The only 91 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: school library case to have been decided by the Supreme 92 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: Court was forty years ago Island Tree School District. Fepiko 93 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: tell us about that case. That was a plurality decision 94 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: where it was determined that the first school board had 95 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: to operate in a way that was consistent with the 96 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: First Amendment and that indeed, students do have First Amendment 97 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: rights to access books that are provided to them for 98 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: voluntary reading in the school library, and that the school 99 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: board could not remove books from the school library simply 100 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: because they didn't like the ideas, opinions, viewpoint expressed in 101 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: those books, And the result was guidance that said that, 102 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: in fact, there is a First Amendment right to read 103 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: and access ideas in a public library and a public 104 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: school library, and that removing books because of their content 105 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: or viewpoint could very well violate the First Amendment rights 106 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: of the users who were supposed to be able to 107 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: read them. And so we've seen a number of lower 108 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: court decisions drawing on that authority that, for example, found 109 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: that putting Harry Potter on a restricted shelf and requiring 110 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: written parental permission to Accessory Potter in the school library 111 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: did indeed violate the First Amendment rights the students who 112 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: are entitled to use the books in that library and 113 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: the public library. Realm District courts determined that when a 114 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: city council authorized on ordinance that allowed any three hundred 115 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: people to demand that a book be removed from the 116 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: children's room to a restricted shelf in the adult area, 117 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: and that was used to target two picture books dealing 118 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: with families headed by same sex couples. Heather has two mommies, 119 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: daddy's roommate um. They found that ordnance essentially violated the 120 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: First Amendment rights both of the young people who were 121 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: supposed to be able to browse and read those books, 122 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: but also the parents who wanted their children to be 123 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: able to find and read those books in the public library. 124 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: So the court druck down the ordinance and ordered the 125 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: books returned to the children's browsing collection. So there's been 126 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: this defense of the ability of individuals to make their 127 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: own choices about the reading and the ability of libraries 128 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: to provide a variety of information needs across the range 129 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: of beliefs and politics. On August fifth, a judge rejected 130 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: Missouri students bid for a preliminary injunction and suit over 131 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: school library book removals. His opinion question their reliance on 132 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: the plurality opinion in the Island Trees case. Do you 133 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: fear a time when Island Trees will no longer be 134 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: controlling law because it was just a plurality opinion? Well, 135 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, I would argue that subsequent cases and other 136 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: decisions drought the federal court system have upheld the idea 137 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: that students don't shed the First Amendment right when they 138 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: enter the schoolhouse gate, to quote another famous case, the 139 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: Tinker decision. But also, ultimately, I would have faith that 140 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: courts would recognize that broad censorship of ideas in public 141 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: school systems that are supposed to be serving the entire community, 142 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: based on particular parents or particular advocacy groups objection to 143 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: those ideas is the kind of government censorship we don't 144 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: want our schools engaging in. How would you describe the 145 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: criteria for banning a book? Is it based mainly on obscenity. 146 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: It's a framing that we're hearing from these advocacy groups 147 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: that any book touching on topics dealing with gender identity, 148 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: sexual orientation, that provide information about changing bodies, human reproduction, 149 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: sexuality are inherently obscene for minors, which of course is 150 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: an objection based on particular moral or religious beliefs, and 151 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: that really should have no place in the decision making 152 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: about what books are available to young people in schools. 153 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: And certainly obscenity is the bottom line as far as 154 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: determining what is not protected by the First Amendment in 155 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: those terms, But the Court has made it very clear 156 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: that that's a very narrow category of materials that has 157 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: no serious value, no educational value. You know, when library professionals, 158 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: for an educational professionals select books for school students, they're 159 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: selecting them because they do have an educational value, and 160 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: particularly for voluntary reading in the school library. These books 161 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: may serve the needs of a particular subset of students 162 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: and they're not required reading. So the streisand effect is 163 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: something that does occur when a book is challenged or banned, 164 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: but it doesn't happen to every book. And ultimately, we 165 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: have to think about those students, those members of the 166 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: community who don't have access to credits, who don't have 167 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: regular access to the internet, who can't travel to alternative bookstores. 168 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: Public libraries exist to serve those very people, and school 169 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: libraries serve students who have no other information resources. So 170 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: when we ban a book from a school library, when 171 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: we ban a book from a public library, we're denying 172 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: those who have less in society the ability to gain 173 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: the same access to information and ideas that are enjoyed 174 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: by those with better income. In Virginia, there's a case 175 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: where a former state congressman is trying to use this 176 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: o Virginia law to ban the sale of books to miners. 177 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: Is this another step because they're attempting to tell places 178 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: like Barnes and Nobles what they can or can't sell. 179 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: That's the core here. Um. We have individuals trying to 180 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: tell us what to think about, what to read about, 181 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: to recruit elected officials and the governments in their campaign 182 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: to limit what we can read, what we can think about, 183 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: even how we can live our own lives, and the 184 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: government should not be engaged in that. That's what the 185 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: First Amendment is for, this effort to reframe the conversation 186 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: around gender identity and sexual orientation to somehow define it 187 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: as inappropriate for any minor even the oldest of miners 188 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: to consider and think about, when in fact, we know 189 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: that we have many young people um who are parts 190 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: of families who have gay or transgender members, are who 191 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: are grappling with these issues themselves, or have friends who 192 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: are grappling with these issues themselves. Is something that the 193 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: government simply should not be engaged in. The First Amendment 194 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: has promised us the freedom to believe as we wish, 195 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: to think what we wish to read, what we want 196 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: to speak as we wish um, in full freedom of 197 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: conscience and what we have here is a campaign to 198 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: take those rights away, um, and particularly in regards to 199 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: the concepts dealing, you know, with the lives and identities 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: of those who have been traditionally marginalized in our society, 201 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: to limit our consideration to something that was probably acceptable 202 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty two but no longer reflects the reality 203 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: of the society we live in or the people who 204 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: live in it. It's the antithesis of democracy to tell 205 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: us what to think and read about, and to argue 206 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: that our public schools and that our public with libraries 207 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: should only reflect the views of a vocal minority. Really, 208 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: um got the very meaning of the First Amendment and 209 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: its promise of our freedom to read and believe as 210 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: we wish. I remember when Senator Ted Cruz read from 211 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: a book asking now Justice Katangi Brown Jackson about racist babies. 212 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: The sales of that book went up. Is that what 213 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: usually happens when there are attempts to ban books. Yes, 214 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: we do observe that frequently when a book is challenged 215 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: or banned, there is increased curiosity. People want to find 216 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: out what's so salacious, what's so wrong with the book, 217 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: And so sales do go Up One author Andie Thomas, 218 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: who wrote a book for young adults called They Hate 219 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: You Give. She's actually stated on social media that she 220 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: has come to appreciate book bands because it means but 221 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: she sells more books. So the strikes and effect is 222 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: something that does occur when a book is challenged or banned, 223 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: but it doesn't happen to every book. And ultimately, we 224 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: have to think about those students, those members of the 225 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: community who don't have access to credits, who don't have 226 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: regular access to the Internet, who can't travel to alternative bookstores. 227 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: Public libraries exist to serve those very people, and school 228 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: libraries serve students who have no other information resources. So 229 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: when we ban a book from a school library, when 230 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: we ban a book from a public library, we're denying 231 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: those who have less in society the ability to gain 232 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: the same access to information and ideas that are enjoyed 233 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: by those with better income. Thanks Debora, that's Deborah calwell Stone, 234 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom, 235 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: the former head of the JP Morgan Chase precious metals 236 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: business and It's Up Gold Trader were convicted in Chicago 237 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: on charges of fraud spoofing and market manipulation and face 238 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: decades in prison. It's a victory for the government and 239 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: its long crackdown on spoofing in the precious metals market, 240 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: even though a third defendant, a salesman, was acquitted. Joining 241 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: me is James Park, a professor at u c l 242 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: A Law School. His latest book is called The Valuation Treadmill, 243 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: How securities Fraud Threatens the integrity of public companies. Two 244 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: of the defendants were convicted, including the man who was 245 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: once the most powerful figure in the gold market, but 246 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: one was acquitted. So is this a victory for federal 247 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: prosecutors in their crackdown. It is a victory in in 248 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: my view. The person who was acquitted was not directly 249 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: involved in the trade, and so he was a salesperson, 250 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: so he may have had a stronger defense. And so 251 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: I think the two convictions, though, are very significant, and 252 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, they send a signal not just with respect 253 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: to gold market, but also other markets. And it culminates 254 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: an extensive effort to crack down on this sort of 255 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: spoofing and manipulative market activity. And it also shows that 256 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: prosecutors can bring these cases before a jury. They'll understand 257 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: it and they're willing to convict. In some cases, the 258 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: jury was out for eight hours. That seems like a 259 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: lot for this kind of case, with the amount of 260 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: evidence that the prosecution put in. It may be it 261 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: really depends on the context. And you know, it is, 262 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: you know, a case that involves a lot of different transactions, 263 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: a lot of different different trading transactions, and you know, 264 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: the jury may have been trying to make sure it 265 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: understood the details of what was being alleged. They certainly 266 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: were also pass with deciding the fate of three different individuals, 267 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: and so I would guess that a significant portion of 268 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: that time might have been spent on um the acquitted 269 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: individuals case, trying to understand what his role was in 270 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: the transactions and whether or not be potentially guilty. So 271 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: the government tried racketeering charges here, which are normally used 272 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: in mob cases or gang cases. Prosecutors alleged the precious 273 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: metals business at JP Morgan was run as a criminal enterprise, 274 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: but it didn't work. The jury didn't buy that. They 275 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: acquitted all three on racketeering. It's interesting, you know, we 276 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: think of rico and racketeering as being um the sort 277 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: of charges you level against the mafia for very serious 278 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: types of crimes. Having said that the statue does include fraud, 279 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: and fraud can include spoofing and other manipulative activities. But 280 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: I think what they were trying to say is that 281 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: they believed that the evidence only supported that the spoof 282 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: thing was really the responsibility of the individuals involved in 283 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: those activities as as opposed to the desk as a whole. 284 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: That you couldn't say that the desk was acting in 285 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: a coordinated manner to engage in criminal activity, and that 286 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: some of this activity may not have been completely obvious 287 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: to everyone on the desk, that some members of the 288 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: desk may not have understood that this was a systemic, 289 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: repeated practice that was going on over many years. And 290 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: if that's the case, then you can only really blame 291 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: the individuals who executed the spoofing trades as opposed to 292 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: the desk as an enterprise. So I think that's a 293 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: reasonable conclusion. And at the same time, you can see 294 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: why the government may have felt it was appropriate to 295 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: advanced the theory like this. You know, you're going after 296 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: the head of the death, not a low level employee, 297 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: and so if you think that the head of the 298 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: desk is involved in this activity, then surely you know 299 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: there's an argument that the desk as a whole was involved, 300 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: as the head of the death was basically engineering this scheme. 301 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: The government's investigated this like a mob case. Once they 302 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 1: got the data, they started to look for co operators 303 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: on lower levels and flip them. They arrested one of 304 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: the mid level traders at an airport in Fort Lauderdale 305 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: returning from his honeymoon. Is that like a sort of 306 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: a scare tactic. Definitely, And it's really extraordinary measures that 307 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: they took in this signals how serious they are taking 308 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: these manipulative activities. I think it also reflects the difficulty 309 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: of establishing manipulation and spoofing. They can always argue that, 310 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, these are trades that were made for other reasons, 311 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: They were not men to manipulate the marketplace. And the 312 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: only way you can really establish manipulative intent is by 313 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: getting testimony of other individuals who may know and have 314 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: evidence about that intent. And so it was very important 315 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: for the government to bring a criminal case that they 316 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: have this sort of specific evidence, and the only way 317 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: you can get that is by getting other employees to 318 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: flip and to testify, and so they took very aggressive 319 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: tactics in order to achieve that result. Racketeering charges are 320 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: also part of the government's case against Bill Wang, whose 321 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: Articos Capital management collapsed last year and cost banks billions 322 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: of dollars? Is this case instructive for the government's case there? 323 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: It certainly indicates that it may be difficult for the 324 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: government to win racketeering charges. But every jury is different, 325 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: and the fact that the government laws on racketeering in 326 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: this case does not necessarily mean that they will lose 327 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: in another case. And so you will have to look 328 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: at each organization on its own facts and look at 329 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: the very particular way the organization was run. You know, 330 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: you could argue with sort of a family fund that 331 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: maybe the structure of the organization was such so that 332 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: you might think of it as more like a unified 333 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: enterprise that a trading desk. Now, on the other hand, 334 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: you could say, well, it's it's just the same people 335 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: may have different levels of knowledge of what is potentially 336 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: illegal activity. So it really is going to depend on 337 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: the facts. No, Back and Smith will be sentenced next year. 338 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: They each face decades in prison, though probably the sentence 339 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: will be far less. I think it will be far 340 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: less than decades. I think I've seen some other convictions 341 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: of sentences of around a year um. I would suspect 342 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's a bit more in that, but it's hard 343 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: to say how the judge is going to rule, and 344 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: they're the judge is going to look at the severity 345 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: of the conduct and all the circumstances in crafting a sentence, 346 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: because in these white collar cases you have defendants who 347 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: don't usually have you know, any records, any criminal records, 348 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: so that's always one thing in their favor. That's absolutely right. 349 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: They may not have criminal records. And you know, the 350 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: other argument I would make if I was on the 351 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: defensive side, is that, you know, you look, who are 352 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: the victims of the spoofing? And you know, my understanding 353 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: is that a lot of the investors who lost money 354 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: on the other side of these trades were other sophisticated investors, 355 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: high frequency trading funds, and so you might argue, well, 356 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: there were losses, but these were losses that more um 357 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: born by barely sophisticated wealthy parties, and so could that 358 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: mitigate the argument for a strong sentence that could be 359 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: an argument that the Defense Council will make, is there 360 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: still spoofing in the markets? I would guess that there is, 361 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: you know. One of the problems is defining spoofing can 362 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: be difficult, and there's a lot of activity that may 363 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: go up to the brink of spoofing but not actually 364 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: be spoofing. It really requires placing orders in a market 365 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: with the intent to cancel them, and you're only placing 366 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: the order to manipulate the market price in your favor 367 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: for other transaction, And so what exactly is your intent? 368 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are other transactions that could potentially 369 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: fit that definition, but may go right up to the edge, 370 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: some may go over the edge. Uh, And so you know, 371 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: with this conviction though, that's a strong signal that you 372 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: should not engage in this activity. And I would imagine 373 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: it's going to have a to turn effect and reduced 374 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: spoofing in many different markets. Did electronic trading make it 375 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: easier to spoof? The speed of the trans actions that 376 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: is enabled by the electronic trading can make it easier 377 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: to place and cancel orders more quickly. I think that certainly, 378 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think a factor in you know, and 379 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: does make it easier I think to sort of put 380 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: in a lot of orders and cancel them very quickly. 381 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: If you are, you know, trying to phone in orders, 382 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: it may be harder to you know, make a subsequent 383 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: phone called the cancel in order, Whereas if you have 384 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: just the ability to cancel it with a click of 385 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: a mouse, then you know, I think that makes it 386 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: easier for somebody to put in a lot of orders 387 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: and then quickly cancel them right away. This is the 388 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: highlight of the federal government's crackdown on spoofing in precious metals. 389 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: How did they do all? In all? I think they 390 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: did very well. They initially got settlement from JP Morgan 391 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: the institution, and they have also gotten a number of convictions, 392 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: both through pre bargaining and also through jury trials. I 393 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: think they're around ten individuals who have pleaded guilty or 394 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: been convicted. And you know, this is not just a 395 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: case where they found the misconduct and they penalized JP 396 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: Morgan the corporation. There are a lot of commentators scholars 397 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: who have criticized federal prosecutors for not bringing the individual cases, 398 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: not bringing cases against individuals for corporate wrongdoing, and this 399 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: is a nice example where the government did bring cases 400 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: against individuals and worked very hard to do so, and 401 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: they've been successful in holding individuals accountable for corporate wrongdoing. 402 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: It's not just the case that JP Morgan is paying 403 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: a nine million dollars fine and agreeing to various reforms. 404 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: You are actually punishing the individuals who have committed wrongdoing, 405 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: and that is more powerful deterrent then if you are 406 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: just punishing a corporation that pays a large fine. So 407 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: I think the government did very well in these cases. 408 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: The Commodity Futures Trading Commission had multiple investigations, but they 409 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: closed them after finding no evidence of wrongdoing. Did they 410 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: miss something? It's hard to say. I think that, you know, 411 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: part of the reality of these investigations is that these 412 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: are hard cases to establish, and you have limited authority, 413 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: you have limited resources, and those resources might be better 414 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: off than on other types of wrongdoing. And so, you know, 415 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: is it possible they missed something and missed some individuals. Yes, absolutely, 416 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: But I think that you know, you have to prioritize 417 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: and essentially winning convictions against the head trader of you know, 418 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: the one one of the larger banks in this space. 419 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: And I think that's a good use of your resources. 420 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: They're going to appeal. Did any Pelt issues stand out 421 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: to you. I didn't see anything that stood out to 422 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: me as a legal issue. You know, they want the 423 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: convictions on the more straightforward fraud and spoofing claims and 424 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: manipulation claim as opposed to the racketeering charges, and that might, 425 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: in effect, the fact that they lost the racketeering charges 426 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: may make the possibility that they will survive appeal more 427 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: likely because if they had also want conviction on racketeering, 428 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: then there could be some legal issues as to whether 429 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: this is really racketeering. But you know, because the convictions 430 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: were on more straightforward charges, it might be that the 431 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: government's case on appeal will be stronger. Thanks so much 432 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: for coming on the show, Jim. That's Professor James Park 433 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: of u c l A Law School. His latest book 434 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: is The Valuation Treadmill, How securities fraud threatens the integrity 435 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: of public companies. And that's it for this edition of 436 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the 437 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: latest legal news Honor Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find 438 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot Bloomberg 439 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: dot com. Slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to tune 440 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: in to The Bloomberg Law Show every week night at 441 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're 442 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg