WEBVTT - #255 Jason Flom with Dieter Tejada 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:04.400 In early two thousand and eight, Dieter Tejato was a 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.840 high school senior dating a girl named Avery Ascebado until 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:10.920 a heated argument led to their breakup. At a party 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:13.920 on March eighth, two thousand eight, Teta received a call 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.439 from Avery's number, but a guy named Nick Schwartz was 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.599 on the other end, slurring and making threats in a 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.160 fake New York accent. Dismissing the tough guy persona and 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.560 the threats, Theeter put him on speaker to share what 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.720 he'd believed to be trivial and amusing with the other partygoers. 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.880 But Theeter soon realized his mistake when he arrived at 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.080 Avery's house and was met by Nick and three friends, 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:39.440 all with baseball bats. Instead of having a few laughs 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.880 at Nick in front of the partygoers who'd come along, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:47.080 Theeter was in very real danger. Unbeknownst to Deeter, Nick 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.760 was on designer drugs that night and had a history 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:54.480 of violence along with a troubling psychiatric diagnosis. Nick hit 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.640 Peter in the chest, and eventually Dieter was able to 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.760 wrestle away the bat and hit Nick as well before 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.280 calling the fight over. At that point, Nick go to 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.160 the crowd that had slowly amassed. It's a further violence. 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.280 While Dieter left the scene. According to the law, since 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.320 Nick was the instigator, Deeer had the right to match 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.440 force with him, and a bat is arguably a deadly weapon. However, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.600 theeter did not get even close to the force that 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.720 he was legally allowed to use. Yet Nick's family's access 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.560 to power appears to have mattered much more than the law. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.720 With a corrupt prosecutor calling the shots, this is wrongful conviction. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.600 Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's episode. Well, it's an 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.400 important episode. It's a different type of episode than maybe 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.720 you're you know, expecting. We were usually discussed cases with 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:01.360 insanely long death sentences and terrible, terrible crimes, But what 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.840 we have here is a really well, relatively short sentence 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.400 when you look at it in a big picture via 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.000 one of the more common ways of which waffle convictions happened, 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.079 and that's by a guilty plate for an alleged crime 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.160 that doesn't even warrant a long prison sense. I mean, 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.000 it wasn't even a crime in the first place. But 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.240 this also makes this sort of wrongful conviction a lot 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.920 closer to home. Than some of our listeners might initially realize. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:26.560 And the man we're going to be interviewing today is 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.800 one of the four guys who lived through this nightmare. 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.680 But he's become a really close friend and somebody I 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.640 admire a lot of them, proud to work with. And 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.600 without further ado, I'll now introduce my friend, dear Tejada Theater. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:40.480 Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:42.480 Hey, Jason, happy to be here. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.000 Man. So I think it's interesting because you were like 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.640 a relatively normal kid with a seemingly pretty normal, if 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.480 you could call anything normal family background. Is that fair 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:53.839 to say? 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.359 Yeah, my parents were both teachers. I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut. 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.680 I was like an average door key kid, had good grades, 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.280 class clown. What happened to me? I never saw happening 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.880 to somebody like me. For anyone who's listening to this, 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.400 if you're a parent, if you happen to be middle 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.680 class and you think that the justice system that it 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.080 only affects other people, you're gonna want to stay tuned 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.520 because your kids are not safe. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.480 Yeah, whether you're a teenager yourself, or you have teenagers, 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.080 or or you're just somebody who's concerned about fairness and justice. 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.919 This story it's important because of how things spiraled from 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:35.720 what started off as a dispute amongst young men. And 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.680 have you ever had any issues with police or any 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.240 other type of thing like this before. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.040 No, I was very small most of my life. I 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:45.720 had never gotten in fights before. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.200 You were not the instigator, neither were your friends. But 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.520 rather than me talk about it in the abstract, let's 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.240 go back to the incident that was at the core 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.440 of this whining road of what turned out to be 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:04.240 official misconduct, and ultimately I'm just saying like madness in 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.480 the system that was supposed to be there to protect 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.440 and serve you and everybody. At Norwalk, it. 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.880 Was my senior year of high school and we were 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.760 at a party one of my friend's houses. There was 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:16.480 a bunch of us from Norwalk, just a bunch of 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.839 friends there. We were drinking, So there were crimes done 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.440 that night. Let's be clear. I just wasn't convicted of 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.000 any of them. I drank and drove that night, but 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.120 I was convicted of something that I didn't do anyway. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:30.000 So what happened is I'm at the party, I get 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.880 a call from the girl that I've been seeing things 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.359 hadn't ended well, and I pick up the phone and 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.599 this guy on the other line it just immediately starts 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.920 threatening me. He has like a New York accent, which 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.440 one like I was. Let me be clear, I was 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.919 less mature back then. So when he started threatening me, 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.119 I laughed at it because he was from a town 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.240 next over to me. The point is that it was 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.720 a talent where these kids are not known for being tough. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.920 But this kid starts threatening me, and it on speakerphone. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.800 So a million witnesses right away, which is crazy how 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.960 many witnesses there were involved. So if you think that 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.880 like having a bunch of witnesses proving that you're innocent 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.960 matters and that'll that that necessarily will save you. Not necessarily. Anyways, 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.719 he threatened me, said he was like gonna kill me, 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.479 said he was gonna come over there, and I was 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.279 just like, no, it's okay. I'll come over to the 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.960 girl's house where he was at. He said that he 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.000 would have bats when I got there. I just again 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.800 I was like, dude, you're from Westport, Like, you're not 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.400 going to do that. You're not a killer. So again 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.039 judged a book by the cover, or I didn't even 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.320 know him. Also, for the kids out there, don't be stupid. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.520 If you do something stupid, things can spiral very quickly 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.599 and you could end up going to prison. It's not fun. 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.560 So I went over to that house, me, two girls 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.080 hopped in the car, and two of my friends. Long 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:55.760 story short, the reason I went there is because I 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.200 did not believe him. I did not believe anything was 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.159 going to happen other than me making fun of him, 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:01.440 and I was wrong. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.360 As I understand it. You arrive with your little crew 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.279 and the kids who were there at the house, one 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.200 of whom who seems to have been the main instigator 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.040 we find out later had a history of acting out 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.400 and violent and antisocial ways. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.159 I definitely did not know the facts of his mental 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:27.240 health history, his violent tendencies. I didn't know that then, 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.280 and I also did not know that until only a 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.400 couple of years ago when I first found out the 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.120 fact of what he had been diagnosed with when I 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.240 looked it up online. Essentially, what it said was that 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.719 we don't like to call people's psychopaths when they're kids, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.520 so we instead say that they have this type of 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.520 antisocial disorder. You don't get diagnosed with this unless you 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.320 have violent tendencies. One thing that I didn't know at 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.480 that time too. I could tell that he was like 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.720 maybe a little bit drunk, maybe high. But the problem 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.480 was again is that, like it's what I didn't know about. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.200 The different is between the two towns too normal. We 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.080 were in blue collar, middle class now basically thirty three 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.400 percent white black. Hispanic was the breakdown of my high school. 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.160 The town that he was from is all white, pretty 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.600 much a couple of Asians maybe like one black person, 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.800 and they're very wealthy. And the difference is that I 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.760 smoked weed and drank. That's all we had really in 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.280 Norwalk at that time. Things have changed, but that's all 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.680 we had. Where he's from, they had been having one 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.800 of these parties where they were all taking a bunch 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.360 of different drugs. So I didn't realize that this kid 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.320 was on the drugs that he was on at this time, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.320 nor was that evidence ever introduced during my case. It 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.000 was only afterwards, in the newly discovered evidence that I 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:43.440 got many years later. 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:45.960 That would have been useful information for you to know 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.040 at the time, but of course that was withheld. Then 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.280 we'll get to that. But so these kids come out 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.200 of the house with baseball bats. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.080 Right, That is right, four guys come out with bats. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:56.880 One of them was like a younger kid, so not 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.640 a big deal. But I'll tell you what. I was 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.000 about one hundred and fifteen pounds, the tallest kid, which 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.760 I didn't know who was who. Unfortunately, the tallest kid 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.040 was the one that had called me, and yeah, like 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.560 he was a lot bigger than me, and he wouldn't 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.080 have necessarily needed the bat to kill me, but he 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.920 had the bat, and I was unarmed. At that point, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.840 two of my friends hopped out of the car, and meanwhile, 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.000 we're all Spanish, Like my other friends are much more 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.640 Spanish looking. So I also thought this town, they're probably 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.360 a little bit racist, and they're gonna be scared of 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.360 us because we're I don't know, ethnic and stuff. But 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.920 I was wrong. He wasn't scared at all. I mean, 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.079 he shouldn't be scared once he has the bats. He 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.960 went right up to me and basically started things off 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.840 by putting the bat right up against my head. And 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.480 in that moment, I realized that, like my plan going 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.160 over there and just having a couple of laughs, that 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.280 that plan had gone out the window. And things escalated, 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.160 so quick fast forward is I get charged with assault 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.800 in the first degree. So normally the defense in my 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.199 case is simple, was it assault or was it self defense? 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.640 So self defense one is that you can't be the 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.560 initial aggressor, So the first question is who started it. 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.720 If you're the initial aggressor, you can't do self defense. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.920 If the other person's initial aggressor, then there's only one 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.120 more factor really to consider, what kind of force did 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.160 they use? Now there's two types of force. One is 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.000 common as usual, it's not like intended to kill or 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.960 mame or hurt. That's usually like fists, unless your boxer, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.760 maybe you might get the deadly forced. But the second 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.160 thing is deadly force. So deadly force anytime that you're 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.520 intending to really hurt somebody, so you could use a 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.840 knife or a bat. A bat could be used to 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.280 kill somebody, right, especially like a bat put up against 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.400 somebody's head. So technically, from the moment that he put 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.400 the bat up against my head while I was unarmed, 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.760 I could have acted in self defense. And the level 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.559 of self defense that I could use is the same 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.040 as the level of that I'm threatened with. The point 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.000 is that you tell me audience, knowing this about self defense? 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.800 Was this self defense or was I guilty of ass all? 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.320 Well, tell us what happened, because this is the crux 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.600 of the story right here. And I mean it's a 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.320 traumatic experience even if nothing had come from it other 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:17.800 than the altercation itself. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.040 No, so he puts the bat up against my head. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.200 I'm scared, I'll be honest. I had never been that scared, 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.240 and the kid was clearly a little bit off. I 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.360 realized at that point he's sort of stumbling around and 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.439 realistically he probably would have killed me if he hadn't 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.240 been so screwed up. But he goes from the bat 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:37.920 up against my head. I try and push it away, 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.720 you know, I wanted to try and talk. He was 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.480 not having that. Basically looked at me. H. I didn't 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.439 know that he had been diagnosed with a mental disorder. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.520 He was scary looking. Nobody had looked at me like 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.800 that before. So he takes the bat after that and 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.040 just hits me in the stomach. I'm not stare out 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.640 of me. I mean, as much as my case sucked, 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.200 it could have been worse. I could have been dead, 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:00.880 and I might have been dead if I hadn't had 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.120 my friends there. If they had decided to come along 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:04.720 because they had heard about the bad thing, I guess 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.440 they took it more seriously than I. But after he 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.040 hits me, he turned around and was laughing to his 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.080 friends or whatever. And one of my buddies ran over 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.560 and punched him in the head, knocked him down. He 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.199 starts trying to get up, so I run over punch him, 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.720 grab the bat from him. After he hits me, he 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:23.920 like swings it at me, like loosely on the ground. 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.080 That one did not hurt, I'll tell you that much, 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.320 but it did piss me off. I'd go down wrestle 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.400 with him for the bat again. I'm pretty strong now, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.360 I was not strong then. He was about double my size, 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.000 and if he hadn't been high on drugs, I don't 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.840 think I would have won in that time. He was, 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.240 and so I wrestled the bat away from him. He 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.720 rolled over. I hit him in the legs twice and 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.320 then hit him in the back once. One thing I 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.640 learned that night was that I had never hit somebody 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.880 with a bat before, and I don't have it in 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.599 me to hit somebody with a bat full force. So 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.000 I didn't hurt him. Maybe if I'd hurt him or 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.800 things would have gone differently, but I didn't hurt him 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.920 that badly. And what's interesting is one of the stories 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.240 that evolved afterwards was that I hit him in the 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.280 head with a bat and hurt him early bad. I 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.960 never did him in the head with the bat at all, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.280 And it's ironic because what actually did happen is he 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.400 did put his hands over his head and I remember 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.600 I like like he held down it and was like, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:22.440 I'm not gonna hit you in the head, you idiot. 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.040 And then I was before I hit him in the legs. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:27.719 Long story short after I hit him with the bat 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.520 a couple of times, which, again I know, it sounds 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.800 pretty bad hitting somebody with a bat, not assault, not 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.000 under the circumstances of when that bat was wielded against you. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.679 And trust me, he was fine. He got back up, 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.880 he was spry at that point. Gets backed up, and 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.400 now he went to go pick up the bat and 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.680 he started trying to get in a second fight with me, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.400 and I was just like, nah, now put the bat down, though, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.440 like why are you get on the bat again? Basically 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.120 we're all sprawled out on the lawn at that point. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.920 Long story short after he got back up and threatened me. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.280 I just kept on turned down to fight. The girl 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.560 comes out. At that point things get pandemonic. But that 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.080 was the end of my involvement. But what did end 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.040 up happening is he did end up getting into something 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.319 with a couple other kids. So three other kids show 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.920 up a little while after after we had that first scuffle. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.280 They came from the party that I was at. I 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.400 didn't call them. I didn't I didn't have anything to 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.679 do with them showing up there, except that everybody at 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.840 the party I've been at, like heard it on speakerphone. 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:32.120 But he gets into a fight with them, and in 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.520 the second fight again he basically starts it chest bumps 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.600 one of the kids. He gets punched in the face 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.280 again drops and this time he got kicked while I 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.640 was on the ground. But I wasn't involved in any 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.520 of that. And shortly after that, I mean, he did 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.200 get up and we just left went back to Norwalk 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.600 and that was that. I remember thinking that night, Okay, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.200 that was my first fight. You know, I'd heard about 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.599 other people getting in fights. That's my first fight. I 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:01.520 thought I was gonna be a crazy night that you know, 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.000 talk about for a week and whatever, but it ended 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.640 up being at the start of the most defining thing 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:08.520 that happen in my life. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.320 This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trrig 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:25.960 through its pro bono program. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.280 Greenberg Traig leverages its more than twenty four hundred lawyers 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.840 across forty two offices to serve the greater good of 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.440 our communities and provide equal access to justice for all. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.520 In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg TRIVIERG attorneys have 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:43.040 exonerated in Free deomand in Philadelphia, represent numerous individuals previously 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.440 sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings, 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.080 and received the American part Association's twenty twenty one Exceptional 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.880 Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for their. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:57.040 Work on five death penalty cases. GT is reimagining what 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.400 big law can be because a more just world only 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:01.600 happens by design. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:10.680 If you think that your kid, all all you us 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:12.960 to do is go in and tell the truth, well, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.720 let me tell you this is facts. Anything you say 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.760 can and will it will be used against you. It 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.880 will not be used in your favor. So don't believe 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.000 that it's a good idea to just bring your kid in, 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.040 your kids, that honest kid, and you can just say 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.720 what happened, and that's going to be helpful or won't. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.800 Going into this, I thought that the system worked a 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.160 certain way. Our parents did too. We thought assault for 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.080 self defense, so we thought that mattered. But guess what, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.560 all that stuff went out the window, right, like facts 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.160 evidence that was not part of the case. Basically, they 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.120 decided from beginning who they were going to go after 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.240 and what the facts were going to be. That I 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.480 was guilty of assault, and the first degree mainly happened 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.720 a little bit later, and they had trouble with it 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.160 because to have a first degree charge you need to 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.120 actually show evidence of injury, and they were not willing 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.320 to turn over the medic because I think the way 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.800 that the case actually first got to the police was 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.400 Nick may have been hurt, but he also was clearly 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.440 on drugs that night, pretty heavy drugs. When he got there. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.840 They needed to give him his antipsychotics, basically calm him down. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.200 So you've got a group of rich kids high on 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.080 drugs and something's wrong with their friend Nick, who's also 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.000 on various drugs and got into a fight. They called 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.280 Westport PD at one seven am and requested an ambulance. Now, 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.760 Nick was allegedly in a semi conscious state, and so 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.120 one of the main goals of this group of drugged 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:40.800 out rich kids at this point had to be to 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.360 hide the fact that they were in fact all high 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.560 on drugs, which certainly affected their interactions with the police. Now, 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.000 we don't know exactly what happened after you left the 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.560 scene that night THEA but what we do know is 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.200 that Schwartz was well enough to try to continue to 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.920 fight you, followed by the crowd that had gathered. But 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.400 as you just mentioned, the first degree assault charge against 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.119 you was, I mean, as flimsy as it could be, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.440 not even counting the self defense aspect of this. But 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.119 because they never turned over the medical records and still 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.600 have it right, so it really calls it to question 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.119 the validity of any claims of injury. I mean, you know, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.560 I've read about these alleged injuries in the news slippings 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.200 because the prosecutor said it. But sorry to separate what's true. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.119 He was alleged to have been in the ICU for 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.320 a week, followed by physical and cognitive rehabilitation. What we 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.399 do know is that you did not could not have 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.920 caused that level of injury to Schwartz, even though in 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:44.320 self defense in theory, you were legally allowed to have 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.960 done so with no legal issues. So this is a 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.920 double whammy. This is like really what? But now back 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.080 to the people who had something to hide, we're talking 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.320 again about the drugged out rich kids. What happens between 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:57.640 them and the police. 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.840 The way that the detective work happened is first talked 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.240 to him and his friends. Friends lied really badly. They 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:05.879 said that we were a bunch of Mexicans they met 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:10.240 a library. Told this like ludicrous story. So the detective 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.800 had them come back in and actually she had to 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.280 make them change their story to another lie not as 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.840 consistent as their first one, and their next one was 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:20.879 all like a little bit scattered. The point is that 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.359 she tried to fit the pieces in together after my interview. 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.680 In fact, the detective did some of the most like 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.199 leading interviews that I've ever seen. You know, I went 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.159 to law school. I've seen a bunch of cases and 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.520 it's up there. And some of the interviews, including my own, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:41.359 were quote lost after they were recorded because Unfortunately my 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.200 interview wasn't that great for the prosecution. It sounded pretty credible. 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.080 I didn't buckle under any questioning, just tole the truth. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.320 And after the investigation we went to go hire my attorney. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.240 And this was the best piece of advice he gave 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.879 us from the beginning was this. We went there, were 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.120 getting ready to tell him my story, the facts, evidence, 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.359 but he astutely surmised that none of that mattered. The 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.679 only thing that mattered was the prosecutor. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:06.720 Who do you know? 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.760 That was the first thing that my parents now raised 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.840 by my attorney, who do you know? Because that's how 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.680 this guy operates, by this guy who was talking about 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:19.040 the prosecutor of my kids. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.360 That's exactly the way this shouldn't work. And that's why 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.760 anyone who cares about fairness and equity should care about 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.239 fixing our system, because this is unfortunately not unique. As 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.720 you said, this case is, you know, unique in certain ways, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.600 but it's so typical in so many others, including that 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.639 particular aspect. So ultimately, like a lot of other people, 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.720 you were faced with the Sophie's choice, right, you didn't 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.880 know anybody. The fact is your family didn't have any 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.320 particular contacts high up in the hierarchy in the town. 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.320 And so you were now really especially because of the 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.119 fact that they were willing to operate outside of the 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.760 law right and break and bend the rules, you know, 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.640 in service of I don't know who what I guess 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.560 the family that was on the other side of this equation. 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.000 So Teter, I got to turn the question around, So 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:10.399 who did they know? 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.359 The difference was my parents were teachers. They didn't know anyone. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.920 The closest we got was I had shadowed for the 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.120 mayor of Norwalk once not good enough. On the other hand, 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.600 the kid who I was accused of assaulting his parents 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.600 were both attorneys. They won that battle and the rest 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.600 of the case just led from there. The prosecutor in 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.600 my case was a who do you know type of prosecutor, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.680 which there's a number of them out there, and he 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.760