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Speaker 1: In early two thousand and eight, Dieter Tejato was a

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Speaker 1: high school senior dating a girl named Avery Ascebado until

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Speaker 1: a heated argument led to their breakup. At a party

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Speaker 1: on March eighth, two thousand eight, Teta received a call

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Speaker 1: from Avery's number, but a guy named Nick Schwartz was

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Speaker 1: on the other end, slurring and making threats in a

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Speaker 1: fake New York accent. Dismissing the tough guy persona and

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Speaker 1: the threats, Theeter put him on speaker to share what

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Speaker 1: he'd believed to be trivial and amusing with the other partygoers.

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Speaker 1: But Theeter soon realized his mistake when he arrived at

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Speaker 1: Avery's house and was met by Nick and three friends,

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Speaker 1: all with baseball bats. Instead of having a few laughs

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Speaker 1: at Nick in front of the partygoers who'd come along,

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Speaker 1: Theeter was in very real danger. Unbeknownst to Deeter, Nick

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Speaker 1: was on designer drugs that night and had a history

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Speaker 1: of violence along with a troubling psychiatric diagnosis. Nick hit

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Speaker 1: Peter in the chest, and eventually Dieter was able to

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Speaker 1: wrestle away the bat and hit Nick as well before

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Speaker 1: calling the fight over. At that point, Nick go to

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Speaker 1: the crowd that had slowly amassed. It's a further violence.

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Speaker 1: While Dieter left the scene. According to the law, since

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Speaker 1: Nick was the instigator, Deeer had the right to match

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Speaker 1: force with him, and a bat is arguably a deadly weapon. However,

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Speaker 1: theeter did not get even close to the force that

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Speaker 1: he was legally allowed to use. Yet Nick's family's access

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Speaker 1: to power appears to have mattered much more than the law.

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Speaker 1: With a corrupt prosecutor calling the shots, this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's episode. Well, it's an

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Speaker 1: important episode. It's a different type of episode than maybe

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Speaker 1: you're you know, expecting. We were usually discussed cases with

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Speaker 1: insanely long death sentences and terrible, terrible crimes, But what

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Speaker 1: we have here is a really well, relatively short sentence

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Speaker 1: when you look at it in a big picture via

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Speaker 1: one of the more common ways of which waffle convictions happened,

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Speaker 1: and that's by a guilty plate for an alleged crime

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Speaker 1: that doesn't even warrant a long prison sense. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't even a crime in the first place. But

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Speaker 1: this also makes this sort of wrongful conviction a lot

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Speaker 1: closer to home. Than some of our listeners might initially realize.

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Speaker 1: And the man we're going to be interviewing today is

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Speaker 1: one of the four guys who lived through this nightmare.

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Speaker 1: But he's become a really close friend and somebody I

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Speaker 1: admire a lot of them, proud to work with. And

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Speaker 1: without further ado, I'll now introduce my friend, dear Tejada Theater.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Jason, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Man. So I think it's interesting because you were like

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Speaker 1: a relatively normal kid with a seemingly pretty normal, if

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Speaker 1: you could call anything normal family background. Is that fair

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Speaker 1: to say?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents were both teachers. I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: I was like an average door key kid, had good grades,

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Speaker 2: class clown. What happened to me? I never saw happening

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Speaker 2: to somebody like me. For anyone who's listening to this,

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Speaker 2: if you're a parent, if you happen to be middle

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Speaker 2: class and you think that the justice system that it

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Speaker 2: only affects other people, you're gonna want to stay tuned

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Speaker 2: because your kids are not safe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, whether you're a teenager yourself, or you have teenagers,

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Speaker 1: or or you're just somebody who's concerned about fairness and justice.

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Speaker 1: This story it's important because of how things spiraled from

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Speaker 1: what started off as a dispute amongst young men. And

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Speaker 1: have you ever had any issues with police or any

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Speaker 1: other type of thing like this before.

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Speaker 2: No, I was very small most of my life. I

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Speaker 2: had never gotten in fights before.

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Speaker 1: You were not the instigator, neither were your friends. But

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Speaker 1: rather than me talk about it in the abstract, let's

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Speaker 1: go back to the incident that was at the core

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Speaker 1: of this whining road of what turned out to be

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Speaker 1: official misconduct, and ultimately I'm just saying like madness in

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Speaker 1: the system that was supposed to be there to protect

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Speaker 1: and serve you and everybody. At Norwalk, it.

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Speaker 2: Was my senior year of high school and we were

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Speaker 2: at a party one of my friend's houses. There was

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Speaker 2: a bunch of us from Norwalk, just a bunch of

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Speaker 2: friends there. We were drinking, So there were crimes done

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Speaker 2: that night. Let's be clear. I just wasn't convicted of

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Speaker 2: any of them. I drank and drove that night, but

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Speaker 2: I was convicted of something that I didn't do anyway.

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Speaker 2: So what happened is I'm at the party, I get

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Speaker 2: a call from the girl that I've been seeing things

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Speaker 2: hadn't ended well, and I pick up the phone and

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Speaker 2: this guy on the other line it just immediately starts

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Speaker 2: threatening me. He has like a New York accent, which

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Speaker 2: one like I was. Let me be clear, I was

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Speaker 2: less mature back then. So when he started threatening me,

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Speaker 2: I laughed at it because he was from a town

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Speaker 2: next over to me. The point is that it was

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Speaker 2: a talent where these kids are not known for being tough.

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Speaker 2: But this kid starts threatening me, and it on speakerphone.

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Speaker 2: So a million witnesses right away, which is crazy how

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Speaker 2: many witnesses there were involved. So if you think that

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Speaker 2: like having a bunch of witnesses proving that you're innocent

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Speaker 2: matters and that'll that that necessarily will save you. Not necessarily. Anyways,

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Speaker 2: he threatened me, said he was like gonna kill me,

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Speaker 2: said he was gonna come over there, and I was

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Speaker 2: just like, no, it's okay. I'll come over to the

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Speaker 2: girl's house where he was at. He said that he

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Speaker 2: would have bats when I got there. I just again

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Speaker 2: I was like, dude, you're from Westport, Like, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to do that. You're not a killer. So again

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Speaker 2: judged a book by the cover, or I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know him. Also, for the kids out there, don't be stupid.

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Speaker 2: If you do something stupid, things can spiral very quickly

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Speaker 2: and you could end up going to prison. It's not fun.

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Speaker 2: So I went over to that house, me, two girls

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Speaker 2: hopped in the car, and two of my friends. Long

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Speaker 2: story short, the reason I went there is because I

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Speaker 2: did not believe him. I did not believe anything was

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Speaker 2: going to happen other than me making fun of him,

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Speaker 2: and I was wrong.

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Speaker 1: As I understand it. You arrive with your little crew

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Speaker 1: and the kids who were there at the house, one

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Speaker 1: of whom who seems to have been the main instigator

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Speaker 1: we find out later had a history of acting out

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Speaker 1: and violent and antisocial ways.

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Speaker 2: I definitely did not know the facts of his mental

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Speaker 2: health history, his violent tendencies. I didn't know that then,

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Speaker 2: and I also did not know that until only a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago when I first found out the

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Speaker 2: fact of what he had been diagnosed with when I

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Speaker 2: looked it up online. Essentially, what it said was that

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Speaker 2: we don't like to call people's psychopaths when they're kids,

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Speaker 2: so we instead say that they have this type of

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Speaker 2: antisocial disorder. You don't get diagnosed with this unless you

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Speaker 2: have violent tendencies. One thing that I didn't know at

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Speaker 2: that time too. I could tell that he was like

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Speaker 2: maybe a little bit drunk, maybe high. But the problem

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Speaker 2: was again is that, like it's what I didn't know about.

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Speaker 2: The different is between the two towns too normal. We

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Speaker 2: were in blue collar, middle class now basically thirty three

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Speaker 2: percent white black. Hispanic was the breakdown of my high school.

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Speaker 2: The town that he was from is all white, pretty

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Speaker 2: much a couple of Asians maybe like one black person,

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Speaker 2: and they're very wealthy. And the difference is that I

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Speaker 2: smoked weed and drank. That's all we had really in

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Speaker 2: Norwalk at that time. Things have changed, but that's all

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Speaker 2: we had. Where he's from, they had been having one

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Speaker 2: of these parties where they were all taking a bunch

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Speaker 2: of different drugs. So I didn't realize that this kid

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Speaker 2: was on the drugs that he was on at this time,

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Speaker 2: nor was that evidence ever introduced during my case. It

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Speaker 2: was only afterwards, in the newly discovered evidence that I

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Speaker 2: got many years later.

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Speaker 1: That would have been useful information for you to know

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Speaker 1: at the time, but of course that was withheld. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll get to that. But so these kids come out

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Speaker 1: of the house with baseball bats.

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Speaker 2: Right, That is right, four guys come out with bats.

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Speaker 2: One of them was like a younger kid, so not

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Speaker 2: a big deal. But I'll tell you what. I was

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Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifteen pounds, the tallest kid, which

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Speaker 2: I didn't know who was who. Unfortunately, the tallest kid

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Speaker 2: was the one that had called me, and yeah, like

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Speaker 2: he was a lot bigger than me, and he wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have necessarily needed the bat to kill me, but he

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Speaker 2: had the bat, and I was unarmed. At that point,

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Speaker 2: two of my friends hopped out of the car, and meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: we're all Spanish, Like my other friends are much more

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Speaker 2: Spanish looking. So I also thought this town, they're probably

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Speaker 2: a little bit racist, and they're gonna be scared of

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Speaker 2: us because we're I don't know, ethnic and stuff. But

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Speaker 2: I was wrong. He wasn't scared at all. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he shouldn't be scared once he has the bats. He

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Speaker 2: went right up to me and basically started things off

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Speaker 2: by putting the bat right up against my head. And

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Speaker 2: in that moment, I realized that, like my plan going

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Speaker 2: over there and just having a couple of laughs, that

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Speaker 2: that plan had gone out the window. And things escalated,

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Speaker 2: so quick fast forward is I get charged with assault

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Speaker 2: in the first degree. So normally the defense in my

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Speaker 2: case is simple, was it assault or was it self defense?

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Speaker 2: So self defense one is that you can't be the

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Speaker 2: initial aggressor, So the first question is who started it.

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Speaker 2: If you're the initial aggressor, you can't do self defense.

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Speaker 2: If the other person's initial aggressor, then there's only one

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Speaker 2: more factor really to consider, what kind of force did

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Speaker 2: they use? Now there's two types of force. One is

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Speaker 2: common as usual, it's not like intended to kill or

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Speaker 2: mame or hurt. That's usually like fists, unless your boxer,

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Speaker 2: maybe you might get the deadly forced. But the second

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Speaker 2: thing is deadly force. So deadly force anytime that you're

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Speaker 2: intending to really hurt somebody, so you could use a

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Speaker 2: knife or a bat. A bat could be used to

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Speaker 2: kill somebody, right, especially like a bat put up against

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Speaker 2: somebody's head. So technically, from the moment that he put

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Speaker 2: the bat up against my head while I was unarmed,

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Speaker 2: I could have acted in self defense. And the level

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Speaker 2: of self defense that I could use is the same

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Speaker 2: as the level of that I'm threatened with. The point

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Speaker 2: is that you tell me audience, knowing this about self defense?

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Speaker 2: Was this self defense or was I guilty of ass all?

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Speaker 1: Well, tell us what happened, because this is the crux

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Speaker 1: of the story right here. And I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: traumatic experience even if nothing had come from it other

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Speaker 1: than the altercation itself.

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Speaker 2: No, so he puts the bat up against my head.

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Speaker 2: I'm scared, I'll be honest. I had never been that scared,

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Speaker 2: and the kid was clearly a little bit off. I

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Speaker 2: realized at that point he's sort of stumbling around and

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Speaker 2: realistically he probably would have killed me if he hadn't

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Speaker 2: been so screwed up. But he goes from the bat

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Speaker 2: up against my head. I try and push it away,

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Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to try and talk. He was

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Speaker 2: not having that. Basically looked at me. H. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know that he had been diagnosed with a mental disorder.

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Speaker 2: He was scary looking. Nobody had looked at me like

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Speaker 2: that before. So he takes the bat after that and

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Speaker 2: just hits me in the stomach. I'm not stare out

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Speaker 2: of me. I mean, as much as my case sucked,

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Speaker 2: it could have been worse. I could have been dead,

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Speaker 2: and I might have been dead if I hadn't had

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Speaker 2: my friends there. If they had decided to come along

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Speaker 2: because they had heard about the bad thing, I guess

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Speaker 2: they took it more seriously than I. But after he

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Speaker 2: hits me, he turned around and was laughing to his

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Speaker 2: friends or whatever. And one of my buddies ran over

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Speaker 2: and punched him in the head, knocked him down. He

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Speaker 2: starts trying to get up, so I run over punch him,

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Speaker 2: grab the bat from him. After he hits me, he

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Speaker 2: like swings it at me, like loosely on the ground.

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Speaker 2: That one did not hurt, I'll tell you that much,

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Speaker 2: but it did piss me off. I'd go down wrestle

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Speaker 2: with him for the bat again. I'm pretty strong now,

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Speaker 2: I was not strong then. He was about double my size,

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Speaker 2: and if he hadn't been high on drugs, I don't

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Speaker 2: think I would have won in that time. He was,

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Speaker 2: and so I wrestled the bat away from him. He

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Speaker 2: rolled over. I hit him in the legs twice and

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Speaker 2: then hit him in the back once. One thing I

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Speaker 2: learned that night was that I had never hit somebody

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Speaker 2: with a bat before, and I don't have it in

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Speaker 2: me to hit somebody with a bat full force. So

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Speaker 2: I didn't hurt him. Maybe if I'd hurt him or

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Speaker 2: things would have gone differently, but I didn't hurt him

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Speaker 2: that badly. And what's interesting is one of the stories

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Speaker 2: that evolved afterwards was that I hit him in the

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Speaker 2: head with a bat and hurt him early bad. I

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Speaker 2: never did him in the head with the bat at all,

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Speaker 2: And it's ironic because what actually did happen is he

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Speaker 2: did put his hands over his head and I remember

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Speaker 2: I like like he held down it and was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna hit you in the head, you idiot.

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Speaker 2: And then I was before I hit him in the legs.

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Speaker 2: Long story short after I hit him with the bat

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Speaker 2: a couple of times, which, again I know, it sounds

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Speaker 2: pretty bad hitting somebody with a bat, not assault, not

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Speaker 2: under the circumstances of when that bat was wielded against you.

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Speaker 2: And trust me, he was fine. He got back up,

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Speaker 2: he was spry at that point. Gets backed up, and

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Speaker 2: now he went to go pick up the bat and

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Speaker 2: he started trying to get in a second fight with me,

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Speaker 2: and I was just like, nah, now put the bat down, though,

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Speaker 2: like why are you get on the bat again? Basically

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Speaker 2: we're all sprawled out on the lawn at that point.

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Speaker 2: Long story short after he got back up and threatened me.

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Speaker 2: I just kept on turned down to fight. The girl

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Speaker 2: comes out. At that point things get pandemonic. But that

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Speaker 2: was the end of my involvement. But what did end

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Speaker 2: up happening is he did end up getting into something

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Speaker 2: with a couple other kids. So three other kids show

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Speaker 2: up a little while after after we had that first scuffle.

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Speaker 2: They came from the party that I was at. I

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Speaker 2: didn't call them. I didn't I didn't have anything to

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Speaker 2: do with them showing up there, except that everybody at

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Speaker 2: the party I've been at, like heard it on speakerphone.

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Speaker 2: But he gets into a fight with them, and in

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Speaker 2: the second fight again he basically starts it chest bumps

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Speaker 2: one of the kids. He gets punched in the face

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Speaker 2: again drops and this time he got kicked while I

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Speaker 2: was on the ground. But I wasn't involved in any

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Speaker 2: of that. And shortly after that, I mean, he did

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Speaker 2: get up and we just left went back to Norwalk

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Speaker 2: and that was that. I remember thinking that night, Okay,

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Speaker 2: that was my first fight. You know, I'd heard about

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Speaker 2: other people getting in fights. That's my first fight. I

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Speaker 2: thought I was gonna be a crazy night that you know,

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Speaker 2: talk about for a week and whatever, but it ended

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Speaker 2: up being at the start of the most defining thing

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Speaker 2: that happen in my life.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trrig

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Speaker 1: through its pro bono program.

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Speaker 3: Greenberg Traig leverages its more than twenty four hundred lawyers

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Speaker 3: across forty two offices to serve the greater good of

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Speaker 3: our communities and provide equal access to justice for all.

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Speaker 3: In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg TRIVIERG attorneys have

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Speaker 3: exonerated in Free deomand in Philadelphia, represent numerous individuals previously

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Speaker 3: sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings,

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Speaker 3: and received the American part Association's twenty twenty one Exceptional

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Speaker 3: Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for their.

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Speaker 1: Work on five death penalty cases. GT is reimagining what

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Speaker 1: big law can be because a more just world only

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Speaker 1: happens by design.

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Speaker 2: If you think that your kid, all all you us

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Speaker 2: to do is go in and tell the truth, well,

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Speaker 2: let me tell you this is facts. Anything you say

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Speaker 2: can and will it will be used against you. It

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Speaker 2: will not be used in your favor. So don't believe

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Speaker 2: that it's a good idea to just bring your kid in,

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Speaker 2: your kids, that honest kid, and you can just say

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Speaker 2: what happened, and that's going to be helpful or won't.

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Speaker 2: Going into this, I thought that the system worked a

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Speaker 2: certain way. Our parents did too. We thought assault for

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Speaker 2: self defense, so we thought that mattered. But guess what,

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Speaker 2: all that stuff went out the window, right, like facts

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Speaker 2: evidence that was not part of the case. Basically, they

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Speaker 2: decided from beginning who they were going to go after

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Speaker 2: and what the facts were going to be. That I

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Speaker 2: was guilty of assault, and the first degree mainly happened

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Speaker 2: a little bit later, and they had trouble with it

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Speaker 2: because to have a first degree charge you need to

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Speaker 2: actually show evidence of injury, and they were not willing

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Speaker 2: to turn over the medic because I think the way

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Speaker 2: that the case actually first got to the police was

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Speaker 2: Nick may have been hurt, but he also was clearly

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Speaker 2: on drugs that night, pretty heavy drugs. When he got there.

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Speaker 2: They needed to give him his antipsychotics, basically calm him down.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a group of rich kids high on

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Speaker 1: drugs and something's wrong with their friend Nick, who's also

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Speaker 1: on various drugs and got into a fight. They called

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Speaker 1: Westport PD at one seven am and requested an ambulance. Now,

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Speaker 1: Nick was allegedly in a semi conscious state, and so

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Speaker 1: one of the main goals of this group of drugged

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Speaker 1: out rich kids at this point had to be to

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Speaker 1: hide the fact that they were in fact all high

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Speaker 1: on drugs, which certainly affected their interactions with the police. Now,

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Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what happened after you left the

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Speaker 1: scene that night THEA but what we do know is

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Speaker 1: that Schwartz was well enough to try to continue to

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Speaker 1: fight you, followed by the crowd that had gathered. But

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Speaker 1: as you just mentioned, the first degree assault charge against

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Speaker 1: you was, I mean, as flimsy as it could be,

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Speaker 1: not even counting the self defense aspect of this. But

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Speaker 1: because they never turned over the medical records and still

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Speaker 1: have it right, so it really calls it to question

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Speaker 1: the validity of any claims of injury. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've read about these alleged injuries in the news slippings

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Speaker 1: because the prosecutor said it. But sorry to separate what's true.

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Speaker 1: He was alleged to have been in the ICU for

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Speaker 1: a week, followed by physical and cognitive rehabilitation. What we

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Speaker 1: do know is that you did not could not have

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Speaker 1: caused that level of injury to Schwartz, even though in

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Speaker 1: self defense in theory, you were legally allowed to have

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Speaker 1: done so with no legal issues. So this is a

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Speaker 1: double whammy. This is like really what? But now back

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Speaker 1: to the people who had something to hide, we're talking

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Speaker 1: again about the drugged out rich kids. What happens between

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Speaker 1: them and the police.

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Speaker 2: The way that the detective work happened is first talked

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Speaker 2: to him and his friends. Friends lied really badly. They

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Speaker 2: said that we were a bunch of Mexicans they met

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Speaker 2: a library. Told this like ludicrous story. So the detective

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Speaker 2: had them come back in and actually she had to

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Speaker 2: make them change their story to another lie not as

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Speaker 2: consistent as their first one, and their next one was

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Speaker 2: all like a little bit scattered. The point is that

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Speaker 2: she tried to fit the pieces in together after my interview.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the detective did some of the most like

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Speaker 2: leading interviews that I've ever seen. You know, I went

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Speaker 2: to law school. I've seen a bunch of cases and

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Speaker 2: it's up there. And some of the interviews, including my own,

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Speaker 2: were quote lost after they were recorded because Unfortunately my

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Speaker 2: interview wasn't that great for the prosecution. It sounded pretty credible.

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Speaker 2: I didn't buckle under any questioning, just tole the truth.

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Speaker 2: And after the investigation we went to go hire my attorney.

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Speaker 2: And this was the best piece of advice he gave

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Speaker 2: us from the beginning was this. We went there, were

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Speaker 2: getting ready to tell him my story, the facts, evidence,

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Speaker 2: but he astutely surmised that none of that mattered. The

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Speaker 2: only thing that mattered was the prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Who do you know?

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Speaker 2: That was the first thing that my parents now raised

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Speaker 2: by my attorney, who do you know? Because that's how

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Speaker 2: this guy operates, by this guy who was talking about

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor of my kids.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly the way this shouldn't work. And that's why

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Speaker 1: anyone who cares about fairness and equity should care about

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Speaker 1: fixing our system, because this is unfortunately not unique. As

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Speaker 1: you said, this case is, you know, unique in certain ways,

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Speaker 1: but it's so typical in so many others, including that

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Speaker 1: particular aspect. So ultimately, like a lot of other people,

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Speaker 1: you were faced with the Sophie's choice, right, you didn't

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Speaker 1: know anybody. The fact is your family didn't have any

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Speaker 1: particular contacts high up in the hierarchy in the town.

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Speaker 1: And so you were now really especially because of the

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Speaker 1: fact that they were willing to operate outside of the

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Speaker 1: law right and break and bend the rules, you know,

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Speaker 1: in service of I don't know who what I guess

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Speaker 1: the family that was on the other side of this equation.

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Speaker 1: So Teter, I got to turn the question around, So

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Speaker 1: who did they know?

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Speaker 2: The difference was my parents were teachers. They didn't know anyone.

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Speaker 2: The closest we got was I had shadowed for the

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Speaker 2: mayor of Norwalk once not good enough. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: the kid who I was accused of assaulting his parents

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Speaker 2: were both attorneys. They won that battle and the rest

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Speaker 2: of the case just led from there. The prosecutor in

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Speaker 2: my case was a who do you know type of prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: which there's a number of them out there, and he

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Speaker 2: was very ambitious. So the moment that he figured out

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Speaker 2: who knew somebody more important, who knew somebody that could

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Speaker 2: actually advance his career or get him ahead, or help

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Speaker 2: him in some way, that's when when the case of

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Speaker 2: this side, it wasn't personal. He didn't he didn't intentionally

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Speaker 2: do something to hurt me. He didn't care about that.

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Speaker 2: He didn't want to get people wrongfully convicted. He will

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Speaker 2: wrongfully convict you if it helps him. He will also

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Speaker 2: do justice if it helps him. That's how this guy operated.

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Speaker 2: Three of my friends, we were just stepping stones on

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Speaker 2: this man's journey to the top, and he actually made

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Speaker 2: it there a couple of weeks ago. Finally came crashing

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Speaker 2: down because the typical things that he did, the thing

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Speaker 2: that I learned about him twelve years ago, he finally

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Speaker 2: got caught doing it. But this time he got caught

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Speaker 2: doing it by the FBI, and the governor got pretty

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Speaker 2: upset and they wanted him out, so he actually resigned

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Speaker 2: in disgrace. He had made it all the way up

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Speaker 2: to the Chief State's Attorney's office, along the backs of

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Speaker 2: who knows how many other people. He did this too.

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Speaker 2: But I'll just tell you this that we were on

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Speaker 2: the wrong end of that who do you know question.

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Speaker 1: Back there, and that's where this thing goes so hardly wrong.

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Speaker 1: Although it is nice to see that it's come full

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Speaker 1: circle and that you know, at least justice delayed seems

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Speaker 1: like it won't be justice denied here, although you're still

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Speaker 1: dealing with this. So let's get to this sophie's choice

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Speaker 1: that I'm talking about, right, So here you are, they're

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Speaker 1: not disclosing the exculpatory evidence to you. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of us there's stuff going on behind the scenes that

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Speaker 1: you had no way of counteracting or fighting back against,

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Speaker 1: first of all, because you didn't know about it a

433
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: lot of it, and the rest of it was you

434
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 1: didn't know anybody, you know who could pull the strings

435
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: for you. So you were just a thing to be

436
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 1: sort of processed for the advantage of other people who

437
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: didn't have good intentions, and as a result, you end

438
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: up with this sophie's choice. So tell us about that,

439
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: because they you know, you're looking at a ten year

440
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: sentence on this first degree assault charge, and then they

441
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: come and they offer you a plea deal, right, And

442
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: I can't imagine having to decide, am I going to

443
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 1: take a plea for something I didn't do, which is,

444
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: I would say, in your case, in too many cases,

445
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: the logical and rational choice, or am I going to

446
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: fight this and risk a ten year sentence, which would

447
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: be at that point, you know, a large percentage of

448
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: the time you've even been on the planet.

449
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's another one of the key

450
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: facts in my case, sort of. I haven't seen many

451
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 2: stories about Rolberic Conviction's work. It was a plea deal,

452
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 2: but I'll tell you this much. It's probably the number

453
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 2: one way why because ninety five percent of cases are

454
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 2: determined by a plea deal. People think that prosecutors if

455
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: they come to you with like, oh, the prosecutor is

456
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: a ninety five percent conviction rate, he's really good. No,

457
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: he isn't. All he is is a good like car

458
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 2: salesman who has everything in his hand. Essentially, I knew

459
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: that I was innocent, but I also knew math, and

460
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: so did the prosecutor, and he did good math. I

461
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: was ninety five percent sure that ever went to trial,

462
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: I would win out. I was one hundred percent sure

463
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: I wouldn't get an assault one charge. I wasn't so

464
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: sure about the assault three charge, but that was only

465
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: because they had been switching up the facts so much.

466
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 2: I mean, in retrospect, it's so clear, it's so clear,

467
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: the case is so easy. But you know, my parents

468
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: and I, we were new to the system. We had

469
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 2: never seen it before. So long story short, they dragged

470
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: this case out. All this stuff keeps going on. I

471
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: had gotten into college. In the meantime, I was terrifying,

472
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 2: and I remember eventually, after a number of continuancies, I

473
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: went in one day. I didn't know I was going

474
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: to go to prison that day, but I go in

475
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 2: and finally the prosecutor comes back with the ultimate deal.

476
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: It's a take it or leave it. They haggled. Originally

477
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: it was going to be a year, and then he

478
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 2: was like, make the quote victims. You need to make

479
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: them happy. If you make them happy, maybe i'll give

480
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: you a better deal. And my parents against mine. This

481
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: is an interesting part of the case too, is you think,

482
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: because I know what people think, that people get want

483
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: fully convicted only if they're broke. We weren't broke. My

484
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: parents were middle class and if you have money, you

485
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: won't get wrong fully convicted. Yeah, we had money. They

486
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: gave it all to these people for a deal, for

487
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: a deal that one wasn't honored. So I was supposed

488
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: to get a better deal because my parents gave money,

489
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: but we didn't get a better deal. Didn't affect the

490
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: case at all. But long story short, money was part

491
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: of the deal, and I accepted nine months because I

492
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: knew that. The math said, that's the deal to take

493
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: the hardest decisions that I ever made. But it was

494
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: the right decision based on the facts. Back then, all

495
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: of my co defenders, we all took the same deal

496
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: based on the facts we had. Now the facts we

497
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: had were not the full facts. That was the issue.

498
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 2: But at that time, Yeah, it took nine months, over

499
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: ten years. And trust me, I know everyone thinks they

500
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't do it. Yes you would, Yes you would, and

501
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: you would hate it, and you would cry as your

502
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: kid goes in and he will be hurt. He might

503
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: not make it out. I'm well aware that I was lucky,

504
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 2: and I've been lucky since.

505
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: All four of you were convicted. All four of you

506
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: were minors. All of you served your full sentences, a

507
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: prison and parole. Caesar Cordero, your friend who I've gotten

508
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: to know, was deported to El Salvador as a result

509
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: of the conviction, which was a country he had no

510
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: knowledge of. It was a baby when he was brought

511
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: here from there, so even more dire consequences for him.

512
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: So prison, as it turns out, the transformative experience for

513
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: you in some ways that are positive, not because of prison,

514
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: and not because you belonged there, because you didn't. But

515
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: it informs your life's work. So tell us about prison

516
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: and how it affected you and made you want to

517
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: become this sort of justice warrior that you've become.

518
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, so prison was a turning point, especially after sentencing.

519
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: You know, I thought I was at the lowest point ever.

520
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: I went into sentencing and I thought I was going

521
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: to talk about everything that had happened that was so wrong.

522
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: But instead I didn't, which was the hardest thing I

523
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: had ever done. But I knew that I've get hit

524
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 2: with a harder sentence. I remember I didn't cry much

525
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: while I was in side, but I think twice my

526
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: first letter from my parents. But I cried after sentencing

527
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: alone in a cell and thought my life was over.

528
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: Judge said that my life was over.

529
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: He was wrong.

530
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: My life now that I'm living, which is the better

531
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: life than I ever had, It started while I was inside.

532
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: For me, it was one the wake up Paul was

533
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: that this is how the system works, this is what

534
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: it is. What I saw was a bunch of people

535
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: that didn't deserve to be in there, a prison system,

536
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: in a court system that was nothing like what the

537
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: general public were people like the average person, people like

538
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: you and me thought it was. And I knew that

539
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: even the people that were running it, the lawyers, the judges.

540
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: One of the big epiphanies I had was like, do

541
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: they even know what it's like in here? And I

542
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: knew that they did it, So I knew that one

543
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: of the big problems was that the people that are

544
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 2: running the system, they are changing laws that are actually

545
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: executing them that even they they don't really know. So

546
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: how in God's name with a system that doesn't include

547
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: people that have been through it, If they're not included

548
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: in the process of making the system better, how will

549
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: it ever be solved? So prison was not a very

550
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: long sentence for me, but it was a massive period

551
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: of change. I committed to doing something about it.

552
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: You get out of prison in October two thousand and nine,

553
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: and you said in your law admissions letter, quote, I

554
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: doubt I will ever experience the same level of euphore

555
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: you as I did on that day. And of course

556
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: you went to law school and excelled. But I want

557
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: to talk about the evidence of your wrowful conviction that

558
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: emerged too late to help you, but which we now

559
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: know what were the key pieces of evidence that you

560
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: were able to uncover that had you known about, would

561
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: have been well, never would have You never would have

562
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: made the decision to take a plea, and you would

563
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: have gone to try and you would have won. I

564
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: think that's almost a given, So talk about that.

565
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: So I took a plea deal with because I had

566
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: less than half the evidence. So my case originally was

567
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eighth nine conviction. The new evidence

568
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: didn't come about until twenty twenty. So after law school,

569
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: I had to take the bar and I went back

570
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: to Connecticut to take it, and you know, you take

571
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: the exam and then there's this thing called the character

572
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: and fitness process. So in the process of that, they

573
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: asked me to go get all the evidence in my case.

574
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: So the police report is one of the key pieces

575
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: of evidence in any case. It's usually just very good

576
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: for the prosecutor because it's written by the police detective,

577
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: especially if the detective happens to do a bad investigation.

578
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: But in my case, that police report, I was missing

579
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: more than half of it. Back in two thousand and eight,

580
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, when I was trying to make

581
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: my decision, I had a twenty one page document. Many

582
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: years later, many years after the case, I go back

583
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: to get the police report from the Westport Police Department,

584
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: and this time what I got was the document that

585
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: was forty four paygs document that we had never seen before.

586
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: In those twenty three pages, there was a lot of evidence.

587
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: I know why we never got it before because it

588
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: was all bad for the state's case. We got evidence

589
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: of the not the full medical reports, still don't have

590
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: them doing a Freedom of Information Act right now to

591
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: get it, but we got evidence that showed that one

592
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: the kid was on a number of drugs, drugs that actually,

593
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: especially for somebody with his mental disorder, can lead to

594
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: quote violence. Additionally, a diagnosis of the conduct disorder, which

595
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: is only given to young people very rarely, and it's

596
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: only in the case when they've exhibited violent tendencies. That

597
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: coupled with some of the witness statements that either contradict

598
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: completely the state's case or cast doubt on the credibility

599
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: of their key witnesses, all of that evidence we never

600
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: had before. One other key piece of evidence is actually interesting,

601
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: so that at my sentence there was a big shell

602
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: put on. They made a big deal and as they

603
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: should in an assault one case, an assault one case

604
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: you need to have an injury. So in two thousand

605
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: and eight, two thousand and nine, what we were led

606
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: to believe the prosecutor said during my centusing was that

607
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: this kid, you know, he had been really hurt. He

608
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: had a fractured skull, he was in the hospital, he

609
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: had permanent injuries, he had cognitive and speech problems, trouble walking.

610
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: The problem was that wasn't true, and a pretty strong

611
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: evidence that he was actually totally okay. In fact, I

612
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: didn't see this until many years later, but social media

613
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: did exist in two thousand and nine and he was

614
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: on it, and he has a post that I found

615
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: that was up from that exact time when he's allegedly

616
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: in a hospital bed fighting for his life and never recovering.

617
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: The photo is of him and his family in Africa

618
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: on a mountaintop and the line was summer of nine,

619
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: best time of my life. So it's unclear to me

620
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: yet whether or not he was lying to the prosecutor fully,

621
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: but it's pretty clear that the prosecutor was lying or

622
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: that what he said was lie. The kid was fine,

623
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: and we took the plea deal based on the evidence

624
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: back then, which included an alleged terrible injury, and as

625
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: time of your life is not recovering from a terrible

626
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: injury Africa sounds nice. After uncovering that, I remember, I

627
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: brought it to my co defendants right away and just

628
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: was like, hey, guys, have you had you ever seen this?

629
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: None of us had, and all of us to the tea. Yeah,

630
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: of course I never would have taken the plea deal

631
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: had I seen this. Why would I. No dury in

632
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 2: the world's going to convict us with this. So in addition,

633
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, after that, I started doing like a little

634
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: investigation myself and started interviewing witnesses again, and some people

635
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: lied back then. Wasn't personal. People were just looking at

636
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: for themselves or you know, in the case of the

637
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: kid who assaulted me, his friends they literally said why

638
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: they lined, we were afraid of him getting in trouble.

639
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: That's what they told the police detective after she made

640
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: them redo their statement. But since then they've recanted that.

641
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: In addition to the police report, which we always should

642
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: have had, is basically the basis of wrong for the conviction.

643
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: And on top of all that, the most recent thing

644
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: is what happened with the prosecutor. Now his corruption charge,

645
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: which really his credibility is shot, and the argument in

646
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: terms of what he did to us and what he

647
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: did intentionally, it's not that hard to make now that

648
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: he's shown to be somebody who's still doing this stuff.

649
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: And of course, the guy you're referring to is Richard Colangelo,

650
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: who was the prosecutor in your case and who later

651
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: served as Chief State's Attorney until March thirty first, twenty

652
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: twenty two. So get this, While the FBI was investigating

653
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: the state's second highest budget official, they subpoenaed all of

654
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: his communication, and on the back of that, an independent

655
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: investigation began into his relationship with Colangelo, who had hired

656
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: this budget official's daughter. Yeah, okay, while lobbying to secure

657
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: raises for himself and others. Again, it's just a pattern

658
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: of who can benefit me, But in this case he

659
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: was actually caught and forced to resign. So at the

660
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: end of the day, your case is a laundry list

661
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: of misconduct and misdeeds by people and official capacities who

662
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: knew better and just didn't care. There are so many

663
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: stories like this. There's a whole hashtag hashtag guilty plea

664
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: problem for people to look up hashtag guilty plea problem,

665
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: and many of them have much longer sentences, even for

666
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: much more serious crimes. But people take the plea because,

667
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, when they're represented by an attorney maybe they

668
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: haven't even met, who might not even know their name,

669
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: who's juggling one hundred or two hundred cases, having trouble

670
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: paying their bills, maybe having their own personal problems. We

671
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: see time and again and you're sitting there and you

672
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: know the government has endless resources, you know, to take

673
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: you to trial and to basically make you look like

674
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: you did the crime that you know you didn't do.

675
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: The rational choice in too many of these cases is

676
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: to take the plea, and there goes the guilty plea problem,

677
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: of which you are a symbol anyway you've transcended this

678
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: horrible experience. You come out swinging. Is a bad way

679
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: to say it based on the initial incident, but the

680
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: fact is you are on the way to changing things

681
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: in I think a way that it's so profound that

682
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: you know it's going to put you in a rarefied

683
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: air among the people that I really look up to

684
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: in the world of criminal justice reform. You're well on

685
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: your way, so let's talk about the work you're doing now.

686
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you're the founder of the National Justice Impact

687
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: Bar Association, which is of course a bar association for

688
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: formerly incarcerated lawyers, an idea whose time has certainly come,

689
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, surprising, I think to a lot of people,

690
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: a surprising number. I've formerly incarcerated people who have you know,

691
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: gone on to become lawyers and excel of course, Marty

692
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: tank Lip and so many others. You know, it's amazing,

693
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: And there's a whole other category of people who just

694
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 1: did brilliant legal work on their own, behalf on behalf

695
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: of others behind bars, like I can'tnot mention Sean Hopwood, right,

696
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: who's won US Supreme Court cases and taught himself the

697
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: law in prison, and just you know, there's so much

698
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: potential for these people to make a difference with their

699
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: lived experiences, as you have so quickly tell us about

700
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: the National Justice Impact Bar Association, and I want to

701
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: talk about the other project that we're working on together.

702
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so just the Backbar. It's the first legal bar

703
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: association for impacted people. Essentially, it's just following my path

704
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: trying to like expand the Deader plan to the masses.

705
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 2: You know, inside, I decided that I needed to go

706
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: to law school because I saw that the laws where

707
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: the power was. During my journey, I realized that there

708
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: were a lot of barriers, a lot of barriers that

709
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: were specifically there because of my experience, which was crazy

710
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: to me, because you know, I played the game to

711
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: go to law school. I got four point zero. I

712
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: got a one to seventy five ninety nine point five

713
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: percent on the l SAT. And when I applied to

714
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: law school, I should have gotten in everywhere. And now

715
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: I would have, luckily partially because we've expanded things for people.

716
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: But back then I was denied from a number of schools.

717
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: I ended up going to Vanderbilt. It's very happy about that.

718
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 2: It was great, But that barrier at the law school level,

719
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: and the barrier that also exists afterwards, was the character

720
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: and fitness process for licensing. That barrier is inspired initially

721
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 2: for me to set up this bar association because I've

722
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: talked to other people Marty Tancliffe, Tara Simmons, Sean Hopwood,

723
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: Dwayne Betts, all these lawyers. When I was going to

724
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: law school, I didn't know that it was possible. I

725
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: was told it was impossible, and I didn't know that

726
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: there were other people like that, but there are. That

727
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: was one of the key things that, Like, I get

728
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: out of law school and i find out about all

729
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: these other lawyers and I'm like, holy, and they they're

730
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: they're superheroes. I mean, they're they're they're We're there, We're

731
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: changing the system. I'm blessed to be around in this

732
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: time period. And that's what the bar works for, is

733
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: to advance us to get more people like Shawn Hopplin.

734
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 2: There are more Shawn Hoplins out there. I just talked

735
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: to another guy who's formerly incarcerated, been working with him

736
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: for like two years now. He just got into Yale

737
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: Law School, that's the best law school in the country.

738
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: Formerly incarcerated. Awesome, he's gonna he's gonna be a beast.

739
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

740
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: It's an Axgonnery. I'll tell you this. I won't name

741
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: them yet, but I know who the first justice in

742
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: fact of the Supreme Court justice is gonna be. You

743
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 2: can circle back with me in a couple of years,

744
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: but you'll see. So these people are the people that

745
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: are going to change the system, and.

746
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: Of course to Justice Impact Alliance. As you know, the

747
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: very first time you told me about this, it just

748
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: hit me like a ton of bricks. And it's something

749
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: that I think has the potential to help countless future

750
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: Deeter Tejadas and others who are in situations that they

751
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: have seemingly no way out of. So what is the

752
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: Justice Impact Alliance and what do you view as its

753
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: potential and the impact it's going to make.

754
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: So that's the second thing. It's all about access, empowerment,

755
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: and inclusion, and so the bar as it works to

756
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: get impacted people involved in and through the field of law.

757
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: The Justiceback Network is a new digital platform that came

758
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 2: about again because of my experience. In my case, part

759
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: of the reason I was want fully convicted was my

760
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 2: parents and I we weren't layers, We did not know,

761
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: we weren't stupid, but we didn't know where to go

762
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: to get the help, or to get the self help

763
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: resources that we could have used, or to connect with

764
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: people that could have helped us in the situation. And

765
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: that's a problem that's all too common. There are a

766
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: number of resources out there, there are a lot of

767
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: service providers out there, but up until this point, it's

768
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: completely unnavigable, and that's what the DISPEC network works to fix. Essentially,

769
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: it's like any other digital platform that has revolutionized other industries.

770
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 2: Uber has revolutionized how you get arrived. Just the back

771
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: network is going to revolutionize how people get justice. And

772
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: it's not going to do it any in any complicated way.

773
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 2: It's literally very simple. If we connect people with service

774
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: providers that fit their specific need, we connect people with

775
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: resources that fit their specific need. We have very cool

776
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: program that brings in students and other allies and just

777
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: connects the space to make this happen. But the key

778
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: thing is, and it's the key thing with everything that

779
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 2: I've done so far, is that we do it through

780
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: the people. Just in fact, people are included from the

781
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: beginning or working with developers that have done other justice

782
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: tech projects, but we're the first digital platform where we

783
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: from the beginning, it's been over a year of development.

784
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 2: From the beginning, we were working with Impact of People,

785
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: doing user testing with Impact of People, and where we

786
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: have our pilot right now in New York and Connecticut,

787
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: but we're going to be expanding nationally over time, and

788
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: that's really exciting. It's awesome.

789
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: I mean for me, it's just such an amazing idea

790
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: because of the fact that it's simplifying what is a

791
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: byzantine and intimidating process for a lot of people. This

792
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: information is not readily available for people who need it

793
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: in their time of great crisis and to their family members.

794
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: So please go to the link in our bio right

795
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: now click on the Justice Impact Alliance dot org to

796
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: find out more about this incredible work and maybe to

797
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: help somebody that you know that needs the help. And Peter,

798
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, amazing work, amazing story. Thank you again for

799
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: being here on Ronful Conviction and sharing it. I've been

800
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: looking forward to this for a while.

801
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: Thank you Jackson, Thank you for everything you do. Man

802
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: on one of the real ones out there. I'll just

803
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: throw in that. Also, in my case, there's one other

804
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: thing you could do. My co defendant, Caesar Cordero, he

805
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: added the worst out of all of us. He was

806
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: legally here, but because of the wrong folk conviction, he

807
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: had lost his status. He ended up getting deported, He

808
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: got sent back to El Salvador. He left there as

809
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: a baby, got sent back there only because of the

810
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 2: wrong for conviction. Ultimately, my goal is to work and

811
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: to get him to be able to come back over here.

812
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: That's going to be a long fight. But right below

813
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: the justin back Lions one is going to be the

814
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: link to his gofund me because he needs support.

815
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: We will link to go fundme for Caesar as well

816
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: in the buyout and hopefully people will join me and

817
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: us in helping him. And now, of course we turned

818
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: to the closing of our show, which is aptly titled

819
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: Closing Arguments. This is the part where I kicked back

820
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: in my chair with my headphones on, turn my microphone off,

821
00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: and just leave yours on for any last words you

822
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: want to share with our audience to.

823
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: The general public, to take anything from my story, to

824
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: take this that what happened to me, it definitely can

825
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: happen to you. It can happen to you if you

826
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: have a you're on a roll kid, your kid that

827
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: you love a lot that you can't ever imagine going

828
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 2: to prison. You think that like you have the money,

829
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 2: or that you have like some type of security, you don't.

830
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: You don't. Necessarily, things can spile very quickly and depending

831
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: on the characters involved, justice might not be done. They

832
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: could go to prison. Another message I have is this.

833
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: It's to all the impact of people both in and

834
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: out of prison. Anybody that's listening to this one, if

835
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: you want to be a layer, do it. Talk to me,

836
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: reach out, check out the link. That's what we're working

837
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: to do. We're trying to work to get.

838
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: You in there.

839
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know that I could do it, but I did.

840
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 2: I'm telling you right now you definitely can. So don't

841
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: think about it, do it and hang in there. The

842
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: one thing I found is that eventually, eventually you win

843
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: eventually as long as you stay in just stay in

844
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: the fight. And to everybody else, if you want to

845
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 2: make a better system, I've seen it because I work

846
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: with hundreds of students and hundreds of students, the future

847
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: is bright. The future is super bright. And that's because

848
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people coming up that want to

849
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: do the right thing. And here's the point. You can

850
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: you can't get involved, work with us, work with impacted people.

851
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: Right now, we're in the middle of a movement, a

852
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: movement for justice. The point is that there's impacted people

853
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: and their students are the two main groups that have

854
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: been involved. But quite frankly, also if you're a lawyer

855
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: or somebody else that's working in the system. Wake back up,

856
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: Wake back up to the fact that, like you, don't

857
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: have to give up on things and be totally burnt out.

858
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: Things are changing right now and we look forward to

859
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: anybody that wants to be part of this change to

860
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: make it happen, and quite frankly, to anybody that doesn't

861
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: want this change too bad, whether you like it or not. Luckily,

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Speaker 2: I've gotten to the point where some of the things

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00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: that I've built and I don't build things that are

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00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: like Deet dependent. The more association is not Deeter dependent,

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00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: just in fact alliances and deader dependent. These are machines

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00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: that are going to be working for and through my

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00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: people regardless of the follow year, and they're going to

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00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: work to fix the system. They are systems that attach

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Speaker 2: to the system to make the system better.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

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00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis.

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00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

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00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at

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00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

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00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

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00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: TikTok Talk and Instagram at it's Jason flam raefl Conviction

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00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: is the production of Lava for Good podcasts and association

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Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one