1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. I am really delighted to 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: have our guest. He is the prolific author of twenty 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: one novels, including Time to Hunt, Black Light, Point of Impact, 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and the New York Times bestsellers of Anna, Pale, Horse Coming, 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: and Hot Springs. He created memorable characters Bob Lee Swagger, 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Earl Swagger, Ray Crews. He's the retired chief film critic 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: for The Washington Post, where he won the two thousand 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: and three Pulitzer Prize for Distinguished Criticism. He's also published 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: two collections of film criticism and a non fiction work, 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: American Gunfight. His latest book, Targeted the twelfth and the 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Bob Lee Swagger series is so relevant to right now 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: that I couldn't believe it as I was reading it. 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: I have given it five stars at Amazon. I've tweeted 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: about it, and I'm thrilled to have this chance to 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: do this podcast, and so I'm very pleased to welcome 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: back my guest. The Pulitzer Prize winning critic sasked bestselling novelists. 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: I hope I might say a friend, Stephen Hunter. It's 18 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: great to be here, mute, and I'm so pleased and 19 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: happy at your enthusiasm for this book. Did you have 20 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: a notion when you started to work on targeted how 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: relevant it would be to right now? Actually got at all? 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: Because this is an old idea that I've had for 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: years and years, and I've kept trying to find a 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: way to do it that made sense. And one of 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: the things that professional novelist does is he has to 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: understand the difference between the one or two good ideas 27 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: he gets and the three or four hundred bad ideas 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: he gets. And I just couldn't get it out of 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: the bad idea range. I couldn't quite figure out how 30 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: to make it work or what melled you. And I 31 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: tried all kinds of goofy things. It just got really ridiculous. 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: And then finally I was inspired by a Maryland Department 33 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: of Prisons bus in downtown Baltimore, and I saw that vehicle, 34 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: which looked like death in the lurking in the high grass. 35 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: It was olive drab with bars on it, and it 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: looked like a siege been scene from the medieval times. 37 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: That just sort of allowed me to organize the book 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: in a way that ultimately permitted me to write it. 39 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: And I actually wrote it a fairly long time ago. 40 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: I started it during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, so it 41 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: sort of tracks political theater in folly through several generations 42 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: of scandals, you know. In other words, every time I'd 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: run out of gas, they do something even crazier, and 44 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: that would filled me with energy again. So I got 45 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: through Cabitaugh and that I was helped immeasurably as a 46 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: writer by the two impeachments of Trump and Joe Biden 47 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: comes along, and man, it's just gravy, you know, it's 48 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: just a golden time for satire and contempt and start. 49 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm really intrigued with the way you described it because 50 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: this is a several year project coming to maturation. Yeah, 51 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: that's exactly true. It's also several publisher project coming to maturation. 52 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: I can't say I was victimized by the New York Left, 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: the generally liberal culture of publishing. I parted with one 54 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: publisher on good terms, and it had more to do 55 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: with scheduling because I inserted my last book, which is 56 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: called Basil's War, into a series of books that I 57 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: was publishing, and it threw off the timing and my 58 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: first publisher couldn't handle that. Situation, and that's when it 59 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: better to move on to a different publisher and sort 60 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: of start over with a blank slate. And my brilliant 61 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: agent got it done in a matter of days, and 62 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: it postponed the book for about six months in terms 63 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: of reaching the public. But that's okay, as you say, 64 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: it arrives now exactly. I think the precise moment in 65 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: American culture, American political history, where it may or may 66 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: not have some impact, at least, as you say, it 67 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: is relevant. As I watched the insanity of the House 68 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: Select Committee on January sixth, which is trying to imitate 69 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: Joe McCarthy but in an even more aggressive way, despite 70 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: two US Supreme Court decisions against McCarthy that said Congress 71 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: can't do these things. I just found this to be remarkable. 72 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: And of course, as you know, the decay of the 73 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: news media has been tragic. So you manage in one 74 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: book to capture both the absurdly hypocritical and dangerous behavior 75 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: of a congressional committee and the egocentric and manipulative behavior 76 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: of the news media, all in one volume built around 77 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: one of the great characters in American fiction, Bob Lee Swagger, 78 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: and I admire the fact that you have aged swagger 79 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: all the way through and that it is true to 80 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: a human being from the very young days when you 81 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: had him as a sniper in Vietnam up through now 82 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: an older time, and yet you make it all believable. 83 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: It's remarkable. But I want to take a little bit 84 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: of a detour because our great research team came across 85 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: the fact I didn't know about it at all, that 86 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: you are a member of the Old Guard. I was, Yes, 87 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: I was sped eighteen months in the Old Guard. I 88 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: was in a burial company, and for about four or 89 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: five months I had the melancholy duty putting the young 90 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: men into the earth way way way before their time. 91 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: And so the military funeral was more or less engraved 92 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: in my Sarah Bellum, and there are funerals in most 93 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: of my books. They figured out that I had this 94 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: journalism connection and they switched me to the Public Information Office, 95 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: which I can't defend it as having anything to do 96 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: with preserving democracy. It was straight public relations that it 97 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: was sucking up to the media and writing insanely unit 98 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: flattering stories for the newspaper of the Military District of Washington. 99 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: I've actually kind of ashamed of it. And yet on 100 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: the other hand, the Army did with me what it 101 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: wanted and based on its best judgment of what I 102 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: could do for it. So I guess in the long run, 103 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: I really shouldn't regret those days I spent in that 104 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: office writing dreary propaganda about the greatness of the Old 105 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: Are You know people were dying in Vietnam and I 106 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: was writing about parades for mcdair. There was an incongruity 107 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: to it that left me extremely uneasy, And you are 108 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: what I look back on it, I have to admit 109 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: I got a lot more out of the Army than 110 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: it got out of me. So just for a second 111 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: for our listeners, describe why it's called the Old Guard. 112 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: It's actually the third US Infantry Regiment. Well, yes, even 113 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: the name is kind of interesting. When I was in 114 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: at the word regiment wasn't part of the title. It 115 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: was the third Infantry, and I was always asking people 116 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: what are we Are we a regiment? We have a battalion? 117 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: Are we a task force? And no one even in 118 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 1: the army knew what we were. We were an infantry 119 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: and they decided. I guess a few years ago that 120 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: this had gotten kind of embarrassing. So now they made 121 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: us a battalion as a part of a regiment, and 122 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: I don't really think the regiment exists. I think all 123 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: of this has to do with paper, and the only 124 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: thing that really exists is the battalion, and the battalion, 125 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, is a self contained little world. It is 126 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: called the Old Guard because if storied battles of the 127 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: third Infantry, both in the War against Mexico in eighteen 128 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: forty eight and in the Civil War. And it is 129 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: said that during the Civil War when they marched in 130 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: review pass Lincoln, someone said to him, these are the 131 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: men that saved the Union, mister President, and he said, oh, well, 132 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: there's certainly the Old Guard, and that's where the name 133 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: came from. Well, it is sort of relevant that it 134 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: is the oldest regiment in the US Regular Army was 135 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: formed in seventeen eighty four, so it's really quite a 136 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: career that heritage is still on view. One of the 137 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: key elements of the Old Guard was the Old Fife 138 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: and Drum Corps. They were basically professional flutists and drummers, 139 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: and they would join the army to do this because 140 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: they really got off on fifing and drumming, and they 141 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: were extraordinarily precise, and they were a great military theater. 142 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: When you saw them, if you squinted, it was really 143 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: like being back in seventeen eighty nine because they were 144 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: in their period costumes, with their period wigs, in the 145 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: period instrumentality. And I had the privilege once of seeing 146 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: them perform at Jamestown, and that was like a trip 147 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: back in time. H. G. Wells took me back and 148 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: put me in a colonial city in seventeen eighty nine, 149 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: and it was really a remarkable and a vivid experience. 150 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: And so the Old Guard is one place where the 151 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: history still lives. One of the things that again I 152 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: didn't and our great research team pulled us up. Your 153 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: mother was a children's book author. Yeah, my mother was 154 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: a very ambitious writer. And it's so funny. When I 155 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: was growing up in the fifties, my idea of a 156 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: writer was a big guy in a safari hat with 157 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: a white beard and a Holland and Holland four fifty 158 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: eight double rifle over her shoulder, and this little lady 159 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: in her pink terry cloth bathrobe and her hair and 160 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: currers and one of a hundred cigarettes a day hanging 161 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: out of her mouth, pounding away to the typewriter. That 162 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: to me at my age, then you know, one was 163 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: a writer and the other was a crazy housewife. And 164 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: yet when I ultimately became a writer, I realized that 165 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: the crazy housewife was a lot closer to what a 166 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: writer was than the guy walking around the bush felt 167 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: with that big gun. I learned the lesson from her 168 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: of work and consistency and dedication. I mean, she was 169 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: a very very hard working woman, and she was an 170 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: ardent champion feminist before feminism had even begun to light 171 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: up someone de Bouvier's Island Balls in Paris. She was 172 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: a good role model, although obviously I don't need haircurlers 173 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: these days now. In your own case, you start off 174 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: in the copy room as a copy reader, and then 175 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: you become a book review editor. What did you learn 176 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: about the publishing industry from being a book review editor? 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: And did it affect you at all later when you 178 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: became a writer it actually more or less did. What 179 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: I learned was that ninety eight percent of the books 180 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: published don't get reviewed or notice. Most just go out 181 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: like squirrels in the forest, you know, and the owl 182 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: picks them off and they disappear forever, and nobody knows, 183 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: nobody cares. You know, that's just the fate of the 184 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: normal book in America. I also understood the sanctity of 185 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: genre rules. I understood that the fundamental rule is that 186 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: it's their game, and unless you're a genius on the 187 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: level of Shakespeare, you have to play by their rules. 188 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: You have to understand what kind of books that are 189 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: interested in publishing, and you have to produce those books 190 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: in order to get any kind of a hearing at all. Fortunately, 191 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: my sensibility was such that I was inclined to write 192 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: those kinds of books anyway, and only inadvertently autobiographical. I 193 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: had no interest at all about hurrying the squalid night. 194 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: I lost my virginity into a six hundred page Buildings roman, 195 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: and nobody cares about that then, or now, or ever. 196 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: And I wanted from the start to write what would 197 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: be called the commercial product, and I had to learn 198 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: how it was done. It took a long while to 199 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: sort of get it sorted out and figured out in 200 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: my head. I had to learn how to be a 201 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: professional writer. You can't learn how to be a genius. 202 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: And I'm far from a genius. But I guess you 203 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: can learn how to be a professional, and I believe 204 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: I can fairly call myself thirty books into it, a professional. 205 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: You became a film critic in nineteen eighty two. What 206 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: got you to move from books to movies? Well, I 207 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: got tired of the book job. I got tired of 208 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: being an editor. I was really not meant to be 209 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: an editor. And in fact, the krum on which my 210 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: professional life in journalism change was a lunch. I had 211 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: an editor from New York when she came down to Baltimore. 212 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: She recently died, but she was a remarkable woman and 213 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: we had a great time. We really got along. And 214 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: three weeks later I got a letter from her and 215 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: she said, oh, thank you so much for having lunch 216 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: for me, and blah blah blah blah, And she said, 217 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: now I have to say one thing. I know many 218 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: editors and I know many writers, and you do not 219 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: have an editor's personality. You have a writer's personality. So 220 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: let me ask one more question. Do you have something 221 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: you could show me? And because I was a writer 222 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: pretending to be an editor, I did, in fact have 223 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: something to show her. And I won't go through the Steps, 224 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: but that was not publishable. But that led to the 225 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: first book that was publishable, which was The Master Sniper. 226 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: And she was the one, she was at Morrow at 227 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: that time who brought that book. It started this whole 228 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: mad ball rolling. That's amazing. Now I have to tell 229 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: you from a movie standpoint, I just did a newsletter 230 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: on Casablanca because it's the eightieth birthday. Oh it's a 231 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: wonderful movie. I love that movie. It's extraordinary. But how 232 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: did it feel in two thousand and three when you 233 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: got a Pulitzer Prize. Well, it had been a goal 234 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: of mine, and like all my goals, that was unreasonable 235 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: to expect because it had to do with you know, 236 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the Pulitzers aren't what they seem like rewards 237 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: for the best in journalism, but that's not exactly true. 238 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: They're very political, and they change meeting from prize to prise, 239 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: from year to year, and they involve horse trading. Sometimes 240 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: they're given as career rewards. Sometimes they're given in one 241 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: category for works that occurred in other categories. Sometimes judges 242 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: or the board will move a nominee from one category 243 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: to another category in order to give it a prize. 244 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, it's the world, it's politics as usual, 245 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: and that had worked against me in a number of 246 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: years that I had been entered. I'd been a finalist 247 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: twice before, and you usually don't win the big prize 248 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: unless you've been a finalist. And then I seem to 249 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: fall out of favor with them, and it was a 250 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: very strange time. If you're a finalist, you know it, 251 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: so that last weekend before you know you're one of 252 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: three possibles, that last weekend before the announcement is excruciating. 253 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: You can't sleep or eat or fairly breathe or anything, 254 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: and you wait for this phone call. And in my 255 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: particular case and that particular year, we didn't know that 256 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: I was a finalist, and so it was completely unexpected. 257 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: I mean, one of my patterns is very bizarre. I 258 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: get what I want, but I get it after I 259 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: no longer wanted. And that was true of film criticism, 260 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: that was true of the Washington Post, that was true 261 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: of the novel writing, and that was true of the 262 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize. On all of those issues, I'd give it 263 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: up and said, Okay, Steve, you've had a great life. 264 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: You got most but you didn't get what you really want, 265 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: so just make peace with it and forget about it. 266 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: And Bigo, the next day I got it. So I 267 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: had given up on the Pulitzer. I wasn't even thinking 268 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: about it. And I was asked to come upstairs by Jean, 269 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: now a columnist, but in those days the editor of 270 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: the Style section, and despite our multitudinous political difference, is 271 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: a very very decent man and very supportive of me. 272 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: And so we went upstairs into this little room, and 273 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: in the little room where Don Graham, Ben Bradley Gene, 274 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: it was just three of them. And I thought to myself, 275 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, what have I done. If it takes 276 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: three of them to fire me, I must have done 277 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: something really awful. And I can't remember which of the 278 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: three of them said, Steve, you won the Peelitzer Prize. 279 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: And later they joked about how high I jumped. And 280 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: the only thing I can say is that it was 281 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: as if, and I'm borrowing this metaphor from Richard Conton, 282 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: it was if someone had punctured a hole in the 283 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: floor of heaven and the steam of hot bliss had 284 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: poured down into reality. I mean, it was just a 285 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: moment of such total and explosive happiness as I had 286 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: never known. But even at that, I will say it 287 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: could be compared to a shot of bourbon in the 288 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: sense that you really feel great. You have this knock 289 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: on the side of the head. The world gets blurry, 290 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: everyone is your friend, everything is fabulous. But at the 291 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: very very same time, at a deeper level, you understand 292 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: that it's ephemeral, that it will pass, sit transit Gloria Monday, 293 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: and boy is Gloria Monday fickle. She just will bump you. 294 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: So I knew it was going to be great, and 295 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: then it was not going to be great, and the 296 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: euphoria lasted for a while, and then it sort of 297 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: went away, and it just became a factor in my life. 298 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: I thank you for bringing it up. It's mentioned on 299 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: all my book jackets, and people say, Steve, you really 300 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: win a Pulitzer Prize for writing novels. You want it 301 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: for writing movie reviews? Is it really fair to say 302 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winner on the jacket of the books? And 303 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: I said, you know, that's a good point. I'm going 304 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: to write them a letter. Well, i'll write it tomorrow 305 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: the next day. I don't know when I'll write I'll 306 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: get around to write it. Well, I'm ninety seven and 307 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: in the hole. But see, the thing is, it's a very, 308 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: very tough marketplace, and you need something that makes you 309 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: singular and as humble and irrelevant as is. That does 310 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: make me to some degree singular, and so I'm going 311 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: to just keep my mouth shut and blame it on 312 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: New York while secretly, as has done many a time, 313 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: when something breaks to your advantage, that's little dicey. You 314 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: pretend to have no knowledge of it. So I'm totally 315 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: innocent as to why it ends up on the book covers. 316 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: And as I say, I intend to deal with it 317 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: one of these days, with or without the Pulitzer Prize 318 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: on your book cover. You've had a heck of a 319 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: run with Bob leeve Swagger. I have. Indeed, in the 320 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: day he came and visited me for the first time, 321 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: little did I know that my life was taking a 322 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: radical turn, maybe for the better, but certainly feel the 323 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: more interesting. And as you say, I have had a 324 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: heck of a run. It's been such good fun. I mean, 325 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: it's taken me places, it's introduced me to people, it's 326 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: god me to me. Knew with gigrits for God's sake, 327 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: So it's all to the good. It's just been a 328 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: great ride. Did you think by the time you wrote 329 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: Volume twelve and his biography that you know him pretty well? Yeah? 330 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: I do. But then I occasionally get people who say 331 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: that aliens have kidnapped the real Steven Hunter, and the 332 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: robot Steve is not as good as real Steve, and 333 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: I just don't get that. I mean, it's still me, 334 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: and maybe I'm revealing aspects of myself that I either 335 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: advertently or invertly kept shielded. I mean, this book and 336 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: the same what's true of the shopping set a books 337 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: soft target. They revealed by fundamentally conservative nature, conservative, politically conservative, 338 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: culturally conservative chronologically, and that's just as legitimate a part 339 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: of me as the part that writes books that have 340 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: no political content at all. And in fact, my next 341 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: book is said in World War two, and it has 342 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: I don't think except culturally in the sense that admires 343 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: that generation and laments their passing. That would be a 344 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: culturally conservative value. But other than that, it's by no 345 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: means political. But you know, it's interesting because your books 346 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: on the swagger generally or action books and they're books 347 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: of tension and of adversarial conflict. Now you have Swagger 348 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: getting a little bit older, he's recovering a severe wound, 349 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: and he gets subpoenaed by the House Judicial Committee Subcommittee 350 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: on Crime and Terrorism. I mean, I had no idea 351 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: when I've got it that this is where you were going. 352 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: And it's just wild. I mean, you place him in 353 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: an environment that is totally different than he expects it. 354 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: I suspect that Bob Swagger would rather have been in 355 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: the jungle in Vietnam than be in that room with 356 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: the Congressional Committee. And your portrait of the Congressional Committee 357 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: is so deliciously savage that anybody who has contempt for 358 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: the US Congress, which current count is like seventy percent 359 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: of the country, will find this book to be marvelously reassuring. 360 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: You know that Congressional Hearing has struck me as an 361 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: American folly, not only in our times but in all times. 362 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: Believe me, I'm not a reformer who wants to see 363 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: it abolished, But I also think it's imperative that it 364 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: be criticized, that it be looked at, that it be 365 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: established that it is primarily theatrical. You know more about this, 366 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: of course than I do, but from my point of view, 367 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: it is primarily theatrical. Its agenda is never what that 368 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: agenda has claimed to be. It is engineered to bring 369 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: attention and popular success to certain members. Certain members have 370 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: used it to launch gigantic political careers for years and years, 371 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: and now no difference than in the forties, in the twenties. 372 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure these political hearing auto de pays can be 373 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: tracked back to seventeen eighty nine. You know, maybe they 374 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: investigated the original Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps for 375 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: all I know. And they're always, in my mind exhibition 376 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: of cynicism, self admiration, narcissism, and a fundamental unfairness because 377 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: the way it's set up, of course, the Congress has 378 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: all the advantages, and the people who have been subpoena 379 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: are pretty much whipping boys. And I just thought dramatically 380 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: that that would be fun to write, and that the 381 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: dialogues could be fun to write the given takes, and 382 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: I had also, as you certainly noticed, there is a 383 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: portrait of two prominent politicians in their exaggerated satirical I 384 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: hope it's funny some people will being raised, but to me, 385 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: it was so much fun to come up with those 386 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: visions of certain real people. And one of my secret 387 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: missions here was that I always wanted to somehow the 388 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: right has seeded a sense of humor to the left. 389 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: That's not entirely true, but you know, most comedians, most comedies, 390 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: most satires are by the left of the right, and 391 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to do my little bit to write that balance. 392 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to show people, even liberals, that conservatives can 393 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: be pretty damn funny. You just have to read the 394 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: Babylon be to understand that, you know. That was sort 395 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: of one of the things I wanted to demonstrate when 396 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: I got to the post. I wanted to demonstrate to them, 397 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: but someone who knew about and was of guns could 398 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: be a good guy, a good writer, a good sport, 399 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: a good office mate. That was important to me to 400 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: sort of be an ambassador showing that I could do 401 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: what they do as well as they do it. And 402 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: in this respect, I want to show them that conservatives 403 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: can be as funny as they can be at our expense. 404 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: So that was one motivation that prompted me to go 405 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: in this particular direction. Having lived through of myself and 406 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: spent twenty years in the House, the imbalance of power 407 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: which would bring an American hero and put them at 408 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: a total disadvantage to several people who were frankly pretty despicable, 409 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: and to a chairwoman who was deliciously crazy. I have 410 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: to confess, because I'm so irritated by the current Special 411 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: Committee on January sixth, and the way they're abusing their power, 412 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: and then the general behavior of one or two members 413 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: over the last three or four years as they've gone 414 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: after Trump with absolute dishonesty. I have to confess I 415 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: was reading it. I just thought, Wow, this captures makes 416 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: slightly exaggerated, with candidly having been in the room, not 417 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: nearly as exaggerated as people might think, the kind of pathologies, 418 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: and the kind of honesty, and the kind of hypocrisy, 419 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: and the degree to which the innocent American citizen, even 420 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: a marine veteran who's a hero, can be run over 421 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: by people who aren't even worthy of holding his gun 422 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: or filling gas in his car. And I thought, you 423 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: really captured that. And then you paralleled it with a 424 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: milder but nonetheless clearly critical view of the news media 425 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: who were covering the hearing, and you did it, I 426 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: think very cleverly. I also was struck by the way 427 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: in which you were weaving together three really different stories. 428 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: You have the story of Swagger and the Congressional Committee. 429 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: You have the story of a group of criminals from Cheshnia, 430 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: and then you have the flashbacks to the origin of 431 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: Swagger in the Revolutionary War. And I want to take 432 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: estament to ask you about that, because the rhythm of 433 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: that and the way you wrote that was totally different. 434 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: Yet and see that was the attraction. I knew that 435 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: I was writing in kind of a what might be 436 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: called the post hip sardonic tone of voice in the 437 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: modern sections. I tried to write the seventeen to eighty 438 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: sections in language of positive to the times, not going 439 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: so far that was impenetrable, but trying to capture the 440 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: higher degree of formality, the higher alliance on Latin sort 441 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: of arms, and the more precise use of the language, 442 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: and the whole different rhythm, more menchisterial, and yet also 443 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: slower and more cumbersome. And and for some reason, maybe 444 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: I am a born eighteenth century man, I find it 445 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: easy to do that. Not only do I find it easy, 446 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: but I enjoy playing those games and playing those two 447 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,239 Speaker 1: styles off against each other. Some people will get it, 448 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: some people won't. I was reviewed in the New York 449 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: Times this past weekend, and that lady did not get it, 450 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: and she was not cruel to the book or dismissive. Well, 451 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: she was dismissive, but she wasn't arrogantly dismissive. It's probably 452 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: the best review I could get in the time. But 453 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: it was clear that she just didn't get it. You know, 454 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: she just couldn't figure out why this was there, and 455 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: to her it seemed arbitrary, and it's very baffling to her. Plus, 456 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: I had the impression that as shoes she filed the piece, 457 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: she went and took a three hour shower because she 458 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: felt so dirty by all the gun stuff. She couldn't leave. 459 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: Anyone could write that much about guns that was from 460 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: a different universe than any she'd ever touched or thought existed. 461 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: It's a very peculiar review to your point. Yes, Indeed, 462 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: the juxtapositions of style that was part of the great 463 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: fun of composing the thing. I mean, you pull it off. 464 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: And I have to say I thought that the style 465 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: of the eighteenth century section was exquisitely well done. But 466 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: the question I've got is, how do you sit around 467 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: You have a very logical but complex story in which 468 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: you both have a congressional hearing, and you have a 469 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: bunch of Chechnyan criminals, and you weave them together to 470 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: create a moment of action that's very decisive, but that 471 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: is coherent. And then by the way, you decide, why 472 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: don't I go back and introduce you to the origin 473 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: of the Swagger family. Now, I mean, that's a very 474 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: interesting decision in terms of thinking about the structure of 475 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: the book. It was a very interesting decision. I have 476 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: to say that in my camp, such as it is, 477 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: it was not greeted with universal approval. There are several 478 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: people who were a little baffled by it themselves. I 479 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: had that Swaggers story in mind for twenty years, and 480 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: I'd been looking for a way to drop it. I 481 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: could thematically insert it in a way that made some 482 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: kind of sense, and in fact, that was one of 483 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: the appeals of it early on. Now, I had trouble 484 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: in early drafts with finding you talked about the rhythm, 485 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: and that's so important. If the rhythm is wrong, it 486 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: doesn't work. I had to make it sort of part 487 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: of the larger rhythm of the book, so that the 488 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: two stories, with their reveals, with their calls to actions, 489 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: with their rise to action and the initiation of and 490 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: a disposition of and final end of action, so that 491 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: they played off of each other. And that was difficult. 492 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: That was like a job of editing more than it 493 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: was a job of writing. Well, they're basically the same things. 494 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: It was understanding how to integrate the structures of the 495 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: two stories in a way that expanded, amplified, made the 496 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: book better rather than made it worse and goofier and 497 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: more incomprehensible. And as I say, the first time through, 498 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: I didn't do it very well, and the second time 499 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: through I didn't do it very well. And for me 500 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: this may be of interest to you when other people 501 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: will read the book. The last chapter I did was 502 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: the battle scene on Kings Mountain without giving too much away, 503 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: and I realized I needed that scene because the figure 504 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: who we see on Kings Mountain, his shadow, his presence, 505 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: must be felt, and every single scene set in seventeen 506 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: eighty after that, and if we don't see him in 507 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: action and understand who he is, if he's just a name, 508 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: then it lacks a center. So, as I say, I 509 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: researched that battle, and I went back, and I consulted 510 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: many sources, and I found a way to try and 511 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: recreate it too, I would guess, as well as it's 512 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: ever been recreated anywhere, you actually have the eighteenth century 513 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: story is a rational component with a clear link to 514 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: the twenty first century trial. That is exactly right. I 515 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: like origin stories. You know, obviously the Swagger family is extraordinary, 516 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: or one line of it is extraordinary. And I'm a 517 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: great believer in the heredity of certain talents. This is 518 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: why we see coach's sons becoming great professional athletes, and 519 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: the sons of major league ball players becoming major league 520 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: ball players, etc. Etc. Etc. And I wanted to account 521 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: for the presence of this gene, the Swagger gift, where 522 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: it came from. And I obviously found a source, a 523 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: man that I've admired in other contexts for years and years. 524 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: In many ways, the original Green Beret reputedly the best 525 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: rifle shot of the eighteenth century, and it just made 526 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: perfect sense to me. I teased it for years. I've 527 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: known this for years. I've played with it for years, 528 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: I've promised it for years, and I'm so glad that 529 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: I got a chance to deliver it at long last. Well, 530 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: you realize, though, you've now opened up a whole new 531 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: opportunity to write a series of eighteenth to nineteen three 532 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: Swagger stories. I do realize that I'm not sure if 533 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: I'll do it. Maybe someone else can do it. Always 534 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: the one Swagger family book that I need to ride. 535 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: I hope to write and have some ideas that would 536 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: be a Western. You know, I love Westerns, so every 537 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: Western ever made between the year nineteen thirty, in the 538 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: year twenty twenty one, in twenty twenty two, including and 539 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: let me just out there's a Western out now that's 540 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: very good called Old Henry with Tim Blake Nelson that 541 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: I highly commend to any of you folks out there 542 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: who love Westerns, who love us, we say, those who 543 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: still worship the old gods. And I want to write 544 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: a Swagger. I got to get a Swagger in the 545 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: West some way, somehow. Unfortunately, I'd probably have to learn 546 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: how to ride a horse to do that. I don't 547 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 1: know if I could do that my age. My daughter 548 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: has a questrian so maybe she can pitch that's right. 549 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: She can teach you the horse parts. Yes, exactly. Now 550 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: what's the bridle again? That's the right, Okay, Okay, Steve. 551 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: I really want to thank you. I really enjoyed reading Targeted. 552 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: I encourage our listeners to buy a copy. But in addition, 553 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: if you haven't read the Bobbly Swagger novels, this is 554 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: the twelfth, I encourage you to buy all twelve and 555 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: read them in order. They're amazing. It is a really 556 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: remarkable contribution to American literature. I also want to let 557 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: our listeners know we're gonna have a link to all 558 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: of your books, including Targeted, on our show page at 559 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. Thank you very much, You've just been great. 560 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: I do appreciate it. Thank you to my guest, Stephen Hunter. 561 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy his new Bobble 562 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: Swagger novel Targeted on our show page at Newtsworld dot 563 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gingwige three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 564 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, 565 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 566 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley, special thanks to the 567 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: team at Gingwige three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 568 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate 569 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 570 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 571 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 572 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 573 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: new Gangwidge. This is Newtsworld.