1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Donald Trump versus the Republican Party. 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: This podcast, as I noted, is all about disruption and 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: I can't imagine a more disruptive politician than Donald Trump. 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: After rolling down a Trump Power escalator in to declare 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: what became his first successful presidential bid, he proceeded to 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: up end and warp political, civil, and legal norms, and 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: he forced Americans to examine myths they've told themselves about tolerance, progress, 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: and shared values and goals. This has spawned an array 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: of disruptions and learning moments, including Trump's collision with the GOP, 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: the Republican Party's collision with itself, and the ongoing polarization 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of Republicans and Democrats. All of that led to the 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: recent cage match in Congress over who Republicans would nominate 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: as the next Speaker of the House, hand ringing within 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: the party over whether Trump can be a successful presidential 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: standard bearer in and who will be best situated to 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: represent Democrats in that same race. We are in a 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: chaotic political era, and the fact pattern and clarity are 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: our friends, and moments like this That's why I'm happy 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to welcome Maggie Haberman to today's show. Maggie is a 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: senior political correspondent with The New York Times, one of 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: our savvayest Trump watchers, and the author of a new bestseller, 24 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: Confidence Man, The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking 25 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: of America. Hey, Mags, Hi, Tim, thanks for having me. 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna have enough time to get 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: through everything I want to talk to you about. It's 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: I've startled by how many shared interests we have. But 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: let's start off with the obvious, which is your book. 30 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: It's a biography, of course, but it's also a reflection 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: of the arc of your own journalistic career because you've 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: been watching Trump for a long time, right, That's right. 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: And what I tried to explain is sort of why 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: I have a perspective that most of my colleagues were 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: recovering him when he was president didn't have. Because I 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: come from New York City. I have covered aspects of 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: the real estate world. I covered city hall, I covered 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: state government. I covered various realms that Donald Trump, you know, 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: either played in or touched on. Or was involved with 40 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: over the course of his pre presidency, and I tried 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: to explore the themes of why so much of this 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: presidency was pre written in terms of how it was 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: going to go. And it should have been clear even 44 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: to people who were wishing that it was going to 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: be some to use your or disruptive force that was 46 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: going to ultimately sort of find its level. Donald Trump 47 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: never found this level. It should have been clear why. Well, 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: let me rephrase that. It would have been clear had 49 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: people known his past, right. I mean, I think if 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: every person who was talking about Trump as a candidate 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: had read Trump Nation by Tim O'Brien, if everyone had 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: read Trump The Deals to the Downfall by Wayne Barrett, 53 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: if everyone had read Gwenda Blair's book, which is a 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: very sweeping biography and much different than mine, with deep 55 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: detail about Fred Trump correct who's the great mentor and 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: shaper of his son Donald and savor of his son Donald. 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: When Trump was falling at almost every turn while he 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: was alive, and frankly, even long after, I think it 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: would have been clear to people that, you know, sort 60 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: of Trump had built this artifice as this successful, savvy 61 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: businessman whose name was synonymous with wealth in the nineties, 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: and he used news stories to do that, and it 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: was just so divorced from the reality of who he was. 64 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about the word. I've been thinking about 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: the word a lot. Disruptive. He's disruptive, but, as you 66 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: know better than anyone, with no end in mind, a 67 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: lot of time, it's just chaos. There's no strategy there. 68 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: I think you and I have talked in the pass 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: about any time the words strategic comes up in a 70 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: headline or a paragraph, it represents a certain unknowing nous 71 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: about how Donald Trump rolls. That's right, that's right. You 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier your time reporting in in New York. You 73 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: were a classic New York beat reporter covering local politics. 74 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: That's how you first intersected with Trump. And then at 75 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: the New York Times they drop you onto the Trump 76 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: beat at a time when the received wisdom, including my own, 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: I might add, was that he had absolutely no chance 78 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: of occupying the Oval office. How did you feel about 79 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: that assignment when you got it at the New York Times? 80 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: So I sort of fill into it by happenstance, because 81 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: nobody wanted to cover him, you know, for for the 82 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: for the reasons you just said, right, It was like, 83 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: this is going nowhere. Why are we doing this? I 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: will tell you I was struck largely by how it 85 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: wasn't just inflammatory the things that he was saying, but 86 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: dangerous the things he was saying. Where I wrote a 87 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: big story in November to with my colleague Pat Healy 88 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: about Trump's demagoguery and the way he was using language 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: to inflame people, and it was very clear the effect 90 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: that his words were having on a group of people. 91 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: So the way I felt about it was that it 92 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: was important because I thought that even if he didn't 93 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: have a huge chance by all of our calculations at 94 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: that point, he still had a chance, and he more 95 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: importantly had an effect, and so I thought it mattered. 96 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it is funny. I mean, I think I 97 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: can say this where we are. But I remember being 98 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: assigned to cover a billionaire running for office in two 99 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: thousand one in New York City and being annoyed That 100 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: guy's name was Mike Clipper and I was I was 101 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: at the New York Post and I said, you're assigning 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: me a guy who's not gonna win, and this is 103 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: just a waste of time. It's really important for reporters 104 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: to remember that nothing is preordained, and that the world 105 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: often humbles us and teaches us lessons and the world 106 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: often humbles us. And so to that end, you know, 107 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: there were points to campaign where I thought Trump had 108 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: a shot. I mean, I remember in December telling a 109 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: colleague that we had to start preparing for the possibility 110 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: he was going to when I he was still really 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: up in the polls, and even though he was in 112 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: a bit of a dog fight we been Carson and 113 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: Ted Cruz was hanging in there. And then in May 114 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: again when he clinched the domination, although he was still 115 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: facing a battle from his party, there were clear signs 116 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: that he had a potential path. And by September I 117 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: remember talking to democratic pollster whose work has generally really 118 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: been very good, who was saying that Hillary Clinton was 119 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: not polling with working class white voters in sort of 120 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: the heartland the way she should be, and that was 121 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: a blinking sign they were seeing that was worrying them. 122 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: And so it's important to cover the race in front 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: of you, not the one you assume that's happening or 124 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: the one that happened before you know. You went on 125 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: in your coverage to a mass What I think is 126 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: a body of work that was singularly, distinct valuable to 127 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: our society as a whole in terms of the fact 128 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: pattern you laid down. You were part of a team 129 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: that want a Pulitzer Prize. Before we talk a little 130 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: bit more about the book, I also want to address 131 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: this idea that you're a water carrier for Donald Trump 132 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: and his administration. You know, I've watched a lot of 133 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Trump coverage over the years, decades now. Unfortunately, that's how 134 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: old I am. I have never once thought that you 135 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: carried water for Donald Trump. I think you have tried 136 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: to navigate classic beat reporting, which means sometimes moving sources 137 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: along a road so you can get to the truth 138 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: of something, but never compromising ultimately what you wrote in 139 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: a story to be objectively true to the best of 140 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: your ability. But I'm probably defending you for you right now. 141 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: So how do you feel when you get saddled with 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: this idea that you're a water carrier? I mean, I 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: appreciate you defending Maybe I think that people either don't 144 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: understand reporting or don't understand I think particularly of Trump's 145 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: political critics from the left, who are sort of on 146 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: the one hand, like why aren't you going in and 147 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: calling these people and screaming at them? But also why 148 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: aren't you getting this information that I want to tweet 149 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: about news. We generally don't call people and start yelling 150 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: at them as a departure point, but we do have 151 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: to engage with a lot of different people. Donald Trump's world, 152 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: as you know better than anybody, has for a very 153 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: long time, been very unsavory. Means we end up around 154 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: and talking to a lot of unsavory people who are autofical, 155 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: people who are serial liars right, who are unreliable narrators 156 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: right at best, And so we do the best we can. 157 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: People are entitled at the end of the day to 158 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: think what they want about the work and to have 159 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: their own opinion. All I can say is I am 160 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: the reporter who was mentioned the most in the Mueller report, 161 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: whose work was which is not a document Donald Trump liked. 162 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm the reporter who broke the news of what was 163 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: in John Bolton's book during the impeachment trial, which almost 164 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: forced witnesses in the Senate, which would have been a 165 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: huge moment had that happened, and would have been very 166 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: hard for him. I think to ultimately survive or at 167 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: least to survive functionally going into so I'm confused by 168 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: what in the coverage people think is going easy on 169 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: him water carrying. I think with the broader public doesn't 170 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: understand about beat reporting, whether you're covering the intelligence community 171 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: or M and A deals are stillic on Valley or 172 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: Hollywood or anywhere there's power. Is that there's this kind 173 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: of basic challenge balancing access so you can get information 174 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: with your own independence and a focus on telling the truth. 175 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: And there's some reporters who do that well and there's 176 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: some who don't, and it's very grueling regardless. Well, right, 177 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: do people think that Woodward and Bernstein went to you know, 178 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: deep Throat and screamed at him and said like, how 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: dare you be working for this version? Or Mark felt right? 180 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: It was deep Throat obviously the same man. It helps 181 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: in context of thinking of who he actually was. I mean, 182 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: it's a strange thing, and I think that for a 183 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: lot of people, I think that they have a focus 184 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: on the broader world of journalism or with the New 185 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: York Times and not unlike Donald Trump, I'd be came 186 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: a symbol for that in their heads. When it really 187 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: isn't about me and the news serving people's own biases 188 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: as opposed to serving the fact pattern. That's right, and 189 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: I think one of the challenges in news coveraged him 190 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: in the post Trump presidency world, but I don't want 191 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: to say post Trump world because we're just not there yet, 192 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: is recognizing and making clear to readers and viewers that 193 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: Trump is just singular in terms of the abuse of 194 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the Justice Department, the expectation of weaponizing government, the constant crisis, chaos, 195 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: disdain for rules and laws, yes, and behavior as if 196 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: systems shouldn't apply to him, But to also cover the 197 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: people who are in power, because we have to do that. 198 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: And so to that point, in particular about people wanting 199 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: news that confirms their biases, I just think that that's 200 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: an ongoing challenge in the realm of media. Now full 201 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: disclosure for our listeners. I wrote a biography Trump Nation 202 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: that the former president on Success Will he sued me for, 203 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: and I felt it was little I could learn that 204 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: was new or revealing about Trump. But I discovered plenty 205 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: of that in your book, and I wanted to ask 206 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: you what surprised you most about what you uncovered in 207 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: your book in confidence. Man, How hard was it to 208 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: write your book and to pull all of that together? 209 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: It was brutal. I didn't really turn to this project 210 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: in earnest until after Trump's second Senate in peachment trial ended, 211 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: so that was February. Basically had a year, and during 212 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: that year Trump was not going away the investigations into 213 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: January six, we're just getting underway, and I was trying 214 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: to do this sort of bigger thematic story. And the 215 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: presidency has been extremely well covered in terms of volume, 216 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: but there was a lot gone over. What surprised me, 217 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: It shouldn't. It didn't let me revisit didn't surprise me. 218 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: But what surprised me it was now available. The evidence 219 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: was of just how this kind of man a few 220 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: moves had been going through the exact same patterns since 221 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: the late nineteen seventies on all fronts to him in turn, 222 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: and that those few moves served him well for decades 223 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: because people were sort of mesmerized by hand. You know. 224 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: One of the other things that I tried to explore 225 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: in the book, and this hasn't gotten as much attention 226 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: as I thought it would, just given who we're talking about. 227 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: But I tried to trace how significant Roger Stone has 228 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: been in Trump's life. Roger Stone, this protege of Roy Cone, 229 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: just legendary New York legal fixer, label fixer and also 230 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, despicable practitioner of human behavior and the dark 231 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: political arts. Yeah, but it also was simultaneously, you know, 232 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and in this way he really was a model for 233 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: Trump more than he was for Stone, but kind of 234 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: navigating the worlds of sort of acceptable society while also 235 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: playing around in the dirt and the mud and the muck. 236 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: And Trump has always and attracted to people like that 237 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: because he thinks that's how you get things done. By 238 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: going in and breaking things and breaking the rules and 239 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: breaking people's spirit. It's the only way to do it. 240 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: There's a line in Wayne Barrett's book that I didn't 241 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: use in the body of my book, but I was 242 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: really struck by it, and it was kind of an 243 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: organizing thought as I was doing the book. But he 244 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: quoted on background a friend, and I have guess who 245 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: the friend is. But I'm not going to say who 246 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: it is here because I hate when people do that. 247 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: You can tell me about it appen, I'll tell you later. 248 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: But but saying that, I'm paraphrasing, but it was Donald 249 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: doesn't like to do anything unless there's a little moral 250 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: larceny to it. And I think that that really accurately 251 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: describes how Trump goes about things. It's just this sort 252 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: of delight in seeing how far he can go, what 253 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: he can get away with, how far he can push 254 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: you someone else. Is he selling you? Is he getting 255 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: you to do what he wants? You mentioned Wayne Barrett earlier. 256 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: I will use this moment for both of us to 257 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: tip our hats to Wayne. I was a researcher on 258 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: his biography of Trump, which was a foundational Trump book, 259 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: and you intersected with him as well. So r I 260 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: p Wayne Barrett and with with deep gratitude. So what 261 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: fault lines from Trump's past and present and future do 262 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: you see playing out now within the Republican Party. It's 263 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: a really good question. And I think that the way 264 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: that this current House GOP is constituted, in the way 265 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: that Kevin McCarthy governs it are going to be very 266 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: revealing about what will bring You know, one fault line 267 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: is obviously personal fealty to Donald Trump versus not and 268 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: I think that he since he announced his third presidential campaign, 269 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: in November. Sorry, has been a little surprised that he's 270 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: not just snapping his fingers and everyone's snapping to support him. 271 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: So I think that's going to be one. I think 272 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: the full line is does Trump isn't continue with Trump 273 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: or without Trump. I think another fall line is going 274 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: to be, obviously in the more immediate term, the death 275 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: sailing fight, whether you see Kevin McCarthy hold his coalition together, 276 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: whether you see him for a private deal with President Biden, 277 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: which I think that this group of flamethrowers whose support 278 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: McCarthy groveled for, are going to do everything they can 279 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: to try to prevent him from going along with you know, 280 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: this debt ceiling fight. You know, the fight in twenty 281 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: eleven was very real when President Obama was in office, 282 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: and actually it was Joe Biden who ended up playing 283 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: a key role, but it was a negotiation with his 284 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: former Senate colleagues. So maybe you'll see the Senate GOP 285 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: come in. Maybe it will be Biden and McConnell again. 286 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the breaking forces back then 287 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: was that voters, once they recognize the kind of economic 288 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: damage that could be visited upon the US by playing 289 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: with fire around the national debt basically forced the GOP 290 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: to back off. That's exactly right. It's just very hard 291 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: to see that pressure point coming into play right now, 292 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: and maybe it will down the road as we get closer. 293 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: Difficult to see because voters now are disposed towards the 294 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: idea of the value of a federal government in a 295 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: different way. Correct. I think that you have seen over 296 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the course of a decade, just as certain disdain for 297 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: government that is different than the distrust, and that was 298 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: really what we started seeing over the course of the 299 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: last three decades, in which Donald Trump has exploited and 300 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: fueled and capitalized on more than any other politician that 301 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: I can think of. But it has turned from distrust 302 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: to just disdain and disliking all politicians in a very 303 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: different way. And I'm not really sure where the pressure 304 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: points are going to come. So those are where I 305 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: see the fault lines within the GOP, you know. And 306 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: then there's another which is the Senate GOP is such 307 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: a different animal than the House GOP has been for 308 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: a long time, but particularly right now in terms of 309 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: classic Republicanism versus contemporary correct and in terms of McConnell's 310 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: strength as a leader, right, I mean, like McConnell has 311 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: really been able despite just a constant barrage of assaults 312 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: by Trump, to hold his place and to generally keep 313 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: his members in line, but not completely. There was a 314 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: vote to try to get rid of him, and that 315 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: would not have happened, you know, even a couple of 316 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: years ago. So that to me too, is it Donald 317 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: Trump data point? Where Trump, as you know, just kind 318 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: of chips He's not strategic, but he's like a machine 319 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: that just keeps coming at you, and he chips away 320 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: and chips away and chips away. And I think you 321 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: were seeing some of that with McConnell. So how he 322 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: fares is also I think an open question. Let's drill 323 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: it down on this a little bit more. Because Trump 324 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: is certainly a disruptor. We both noted it. That's why 325 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: he's the subject of this particular episode. But Trump, and 326 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: I think his political traction are also the products of 327 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: decades of stresses and strains in the American fabric. And 328 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about that. You know, the 329 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: shrinking of the middle class, the tremors of globalization, races 330 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: um anti institutionalism, and the social media boom. That all 331 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: of these things sort of gel didn't they are around 332 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: him in a particular moment in time. And those are 333 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: themes that I explore in the book as well, just 334 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: sort of the idea that this concept of the breaking 335 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: of America, which is the subtitle of the book, did 336 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: not happen overnight, and did not happen exclusively with Donald Trump. 337 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: This has been going on for decades, dating back to 338 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: polarization in Washington that hit what seemed at the time 339 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: like a critical peak in the nineteen nineties, followed by 340 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: a series of national traumas, the two thousand election being 341 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: decided at the Supreme Court, the two thousand one terrorist attacks, 342 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: and then I think that people misunderstand or at least 343 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: don't fully appreciate or weight. And because history takes forever 344 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: to get written, it's going to take a long time. 345 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: But just the impact of the post nine eleven foreign 346 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: policy and domestic policy behaviors in this country had on 347 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: our electoral patterns. We are still contending with it, and 348 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: so and the O eight crisis, the sort of breaking 349 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: of aspiration and well being for the working class and 350 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: America's working class, and it all congealed, It all came 351 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: together a black president, correct, and a black pread the 352 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: first black president getting elected, and so you have all 353 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: of those forces, and from that muck of emotion comes 354 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: the Tea Party, and then from the tea Party comes 355 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. There is no Donald Trump without the Tea Party, 356 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: you know. I know that there's a theory that there's 357 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: no Donald Trump without Sarah Palin. I don't agree with that. 358 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: I think Sarah Palin was an avatar for what the 359 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: country might accept. But Donald Trump had been a celebrity 360 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: for many decades before. She was a precursor. But she 361 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: didn't open the door, correct, She was not a groundbreaker. 362 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: And so I think that ground was breaking regardless. And 363 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: so those are the forces that we have seen a 364 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: fair amount of the Trump energy was capitalizing on these 365 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: tea Party forces, at least some of which was driven 366 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: by backlash to the election of the first black president. 367 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: And Trump has been tilling the soil of racial animus 368 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: and racial paranoia for decades and New York City was 369 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: a perfect crucival for that. So what did Trump teach 370 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: the Republican Party? So mainly when I think about that question, 371 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: what comes to mind is Donald Trump Jr. Tweeting about 372 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: how his dad had taught people to fight back, whatever 373 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: the hellth fight back means. And remember this is a 374 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: billionaire talking about, you know, a reported billionaire talking about 375 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: how he needs to fight back even though his life 376 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: had been cushioned by family, wealth, celebrity and then the 377 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: powers of high political office. Right. And Trump is expert, 378 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: as you know well, at making himself the victim, to 379 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: the point where he actually said that in his kickoff 380 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: speech in November, which I was really surprised by, but 381 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: he said, I'm a victim. Let me tell you, I'm 382 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: a victim, and I'm a spokesman for the victimized. Right. 383 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: But it's also in the past again, because so much 384 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: of Trump is just kind of moving in gradations to 385 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: push the boundary. I've never heard him say prior to 386 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: that I'm a victim. That was always the implied message, 387 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: but now it's just all being said out loud. So 388 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: I think what he taught the GOP is that you 389 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: can behave in certain ways and as long as you 390 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: don't get criminally charged, the consequences are relative. And so 391 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: I think that generally to me is Trump's outlook is 392 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: get away with what you can criminal charges are the 393 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: real threat, and you're really seeing that tension play out 394 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: right now, obviously as he's facing a number of investigations 395 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: at the criminal level. You know, when you talk about 396 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: him describing himself as a victim, he's essentially an expert 397 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: in performance art. You know, he is not a sophisticated man. 398 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: He's ignorant about a lot of things. And I sort 399 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: of wonder if the Republican Party, by seeing how effective 400 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: performance art is as a path of power, is now 401 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: content to substitute performance art for policymaking. I think that's 402 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: definitely true. But I will say again, as we talk 403 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: about the forces that predated Donald Trump, that did predate 404 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, he's just an expert, added to your point. 405 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: But you know, this era of sort of Republican lawmakers, 406 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, existing to get on Fox News has been 407 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: going on for a very long time. This is not 408 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: something that Donald Trump brought into being. It's just something 409 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: that he intensified and amplified and used to his advantage 410 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: in a way that we had not seen on the 411 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: national stage before. And remember he was often at odds 412 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: with Fox News. But certain that is where I think 413 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: Sarah Palin was a blinking lights. Well, and if we're 414 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: really gonna you know, father Coglan was a blinking light 415 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: with radio and Joe McCarthy with TV. Right, there's a 416 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: long tradition of this in American political life, correct, But 417 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: I think that you have not seen such a combination 418 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: of celebrity and media megaphone and social media megaphone as 419 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: we have seen with Trump. I think that's the difference. 420 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: So what can we expect as Trump is m continues 421 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: to take root in national politics and the GOP. When 422 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: we get back from the short break, we'll talk about 423 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: all of that with Maggie Haberman and we're back, Maggie, 424 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: let's define Trump is um. We may define it differently, 425 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: but since we've used it a couple of times in 426 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: this episode, how do you define Trump is um? It's 427 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: a really good question, and it's unfortunately something that I 428 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: think is often shifting. But I think that at its 429 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: core it is race based populism and grievance with sort 430 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: of a loosely applied ideological through line that often I 431 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: say loosely because it often changes it. You know, it's 432 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: basically defined by who you hate and who hates you back, 433 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: and that can change depending on you know, what we're 434 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: talking about. But again that's also something that predats. That's 435 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: also a sad commentary about all of us that it 436 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: gets traction because of that dynamic, but it works, right 437 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: and so yeah, so that's my idea of Trump is 438 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: um but I do think it's important. And I was 439 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: thinking about this when you were introducing the commercial break 440 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: one of the struggles, and this also applies to the 441 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: question of sort of the stress points in the GOP. 442 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: It's the stress point within and outside the GOP. Is 443 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: is Trump the branch or the route? And so I 444 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: think there have been a lot of Republicans who don't 445 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: like him, and Democrats have certainly don't like him, who 446 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: have argued, you know, if you just get rid of Trump, 447 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: he's the problem. He's not the problem. He is now 448 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: the symbol of the problem, and it's the symbol of 449 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: a philosophy. I mean, I think I agree with you 450 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: about how you define trump Ism. I would throw into 451 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: the mix anti globalism in the institutionalism. And that's the 452 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: loose ideology that I'm referring to right right, this escalating 453 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: war with corporate America and with quote unquote elites right, 454 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: and that dialogue works right. Well, there's a look and 455 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: to your point about going back to the days of 456 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: Father Copland, there's a long market for that too. It's 457 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: not like anti institutionalism just suddenly came up. It's just 458 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: that anti institutionalism sentiment rises as you're saying, trust in 459 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: institutions go like this, and Trump is against institutions for 460 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: his own reasons. They're not doing things that he wants 461 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: for him. It's not actually about these people he's claiming 462 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: to be fighting this fight for, but they see him 463 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: as their fighter. And that is where when I say 464 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: he's not the problem, I want to amend what I said. 465 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: You know, he's a reflection. He is a reflection, and 466 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: he is and he is a force that I think 467 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: that the country is going to be dealing with for 468 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: a very very long time. But I don't think that 469 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: the situation is such that if Trump is somehow not 470 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: on the political scene anymore, that life goes back to 471 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: two thousand. That's not happening. And I think there are 472 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are still waiting for that moment. 473 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: And it's like that when when Biden we talked about 474 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: the fever's go a break the fever is not breaking, right, 475 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: goodbye to all of that. And you know, the idea 476 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: that they are out to get you. There's someone out 477 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: there in some form without to get you. They may 478 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: exist in politics, or in business, or maybe your neighbor 479 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: or it maybe that immigrant, maybe that black person down 480 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: the street, or that yellow person in San Francisco. Someone 481 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: is out to get you, and you better beware. Has 482 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: been a very effective anchor for authoritarian governments everywhere, and 483 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: it has been a driving force of the Trump family 484 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: for a very long time, as you know better than 485 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: anybody too, and which we've talked about because you know 486 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: Fred Trump, who was sort of exiled from the public 487 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: housing market for illegalities. The family told itself that he 488 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: lost his business traction because the government was out to 489 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: get Fred. That's right, that's right. You know. I can't 490 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: think of a more raw shack moment for where the 491 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: Republican Party resides right now than the recent battle in 492 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: the House of Representatives over the speakership. And that's obviously 493 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: a collision of now the Republican Party with itself this 494 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: extremist wing of I think flamethrowers and the more traditional 495 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: wing of the party that believes in lower tax is 496 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: a conservative court than a hawk ish foreign policy. What 497 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: do you see in all of that. I see it 498 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: frankling less as a sort of a clash of governing 499 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,479 Speaker 1: ideologies than I do of just you know, sort of 500 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: this flamethrower versus non flamethrower without necessarily having a cause. 501 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: I think once upon a time, in the early iterations 502 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: of the Tea Party and then the House Freedom Caucus 503 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: that emerged from the Tea Party, it was much more 504 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: about budget balance. But you know, Paul Ryan was all 505 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: about budget balance. And Paul Ryan is seen as a 506 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Democrat by Trump forces, right, so a sell out. Well, yes, 507 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: but I also think that although those are also people 508 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: who would sell out to Trump directly, that would help them. 509 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: That's true. I think that it's very hard to find 510 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: the lines a on which this breaks down at this point. 511 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: But I don't think it's about strict policy, although I 512 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: do think. I mean, I think if there's an animating thing, 513 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: it's again this antique government stands that you do whatever 514 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: you can to sort of burn down the federal government 515 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: because it's only a suffocating and inhibiting force. It gets 516 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: in the way of individual freedom. I agree with that, 517 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: but I also think that because that is such a 518 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: diffuse concept that can be sublimated depending on the moment, 519 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: and frankly, sublimating an existing supposed core belief in service 520 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: of something else is also a key factor of Trumpism, 521 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: as you know, and certainly how Trump behaves. So how 522 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: do you see? I mean, this came to light right 523 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: after the mid term The fight over the speakership happens 524 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: right after mid term elections that didn't go nearly as 525 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: swimmingly as Republicans expected. The abortion issue had traction in 526 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: a way I think Republicans didn't expect. The inflation issue 527 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: didn't have as much traction with voters as I think 528 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: they thought it would. So how does that play out? 529 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: You know, where do Republicans go from here and what 530 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: happens to some of their bread and butter policy issues. 531 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, part of how these 532 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: elections in the mid terms were fought was that because 533 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: of gerrymandering, because of shifts in the media, because of 534 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: the changes in the political landscapes, Elections have become more 535 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: and more national over the course of the last you know, decade, 536 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: decade and a half, and I think that that was 537 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: one of the misreads, certainly for Republicans, but also I 538 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: would saying New York for Democrats to the crime and 539 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: not talking about crime was impactful for Democrats in a 540 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: state where pretty in the state of New York. Yeah, 541 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: in the state of New York where hocolled, the governor 542 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: talked a lot about abortion, but that was less animating 543 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: for a lot of voters in a state where the 544 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: abortion laws are unlikely to change at least anytime soon. 545 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: So for Republicans, I think that they were fighting on 546 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: a number of different fronts, sort of classic anti incumbent 547 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: fronts against Biden, who is just very hard to demonize 548 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: and make unlikable the same way as other candidates. It's 549 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: pretty clear, even though Biden's approval ratings are not great, 550 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: the voters don't get riled up by him the way 551 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: they do by Trump and scared by him the way 552 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: they do by Trump. And Trump also supported a lot 553 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: of candidates who reviewed by voters as deeply problematic and concerning. 554 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: And so you know, when I look at where Republicans 555 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: went wrong, candidate quality is a big piece of it. 556 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: And allowing Trump to play a role in boosting certain 557 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: candidates over others that might have been more electable Republicans. Well, 558 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how much of it's allowing, because that 559 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: gets to your point by the future of the Republican Party, 560 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: A big point is yes, he is a fading commodity 561 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: within the GOP, but he's not faded. He just doesn't 562 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: have the backing that he had. He is still getting 563 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: more support. I mean, you know, I've seen these snap 564 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: polls that show round to Santa's ahead of Trump by 565 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: a huge mile. The more reliable pills show that Trump 566 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: is still got a plurality of support by comfortable mass 567 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: of percentage points. And so, you know, I don't know 568 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: how much of it's allowing versus he has huge influence 569 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: with the voters they need. And so that's the dilemma 570 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: that they have been in since and that's the dilemma 571 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: they're going to find themselves in for a long time. 572 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: Do you see the GOP down the road rallying around 573 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: other people, you know, sort of Trump wanna bees in 574 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: better suits, like the Santists or Holly or shape shifting 575 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: Trump wanna bees like at least to Fanic or Ted Cruz, 576 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: or is there going to be a move away from 577 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: flame throwing. Two more structural conservatism. I don't think there's 578 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: going to be a move away from flamethrowing anytime soon. 579 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: I think that will require Donald Trump not being on 580 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: the political scene anymore. The risk reward calculus has to 581 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: be different for these electeds than what it is right now, 582 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: So everybody better put on their asbestos. Is going to 583 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: be a very we have seen since was a very 584 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: very very rough election, both in terms of how Trump 585 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: went after his Republican rivals and then how he went 586 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: after Hillary Clinton, which was savage and made look like 587 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: a high minded debate of ideals. And the only thing 588 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: that was slightly leavening on that was the fact that 589 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: there was a global pandemic. Is going to be the 590 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: first really post pandemic election, although we're still the pandemic, 591 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: but you know what I need in terms of pandemic restrictions. 592 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: Two was mostly that. But this is going to be different, 593 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: and I just think that it's going to go to 594 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: a very dark place, whether Donald Trump is the nominee 595 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: or not, because look at the factors that we're looking 596 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: at right now. To him, I feel like so much 597 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: of the political analysis of what the Republican primary is 598 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: going to look like. Ignores the fact that the guy 599 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: is facing four criminal investigations to d o J. One Georgia, 600 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: one in Manhattan, now another one with Alvin Bragg. That's actually, 601 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: in some ways the simplest, involving an array of possible crimes, 602 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: from voting fraud to financial fraud, to violations of the 603 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: Espionage Act to inciting an surrection and overthrowing the government. 604 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: Yeah too, I mean it's mind blowing. And so we 605 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: don't know what that's all going to look like. We 606 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: don't know what effect if he gets indicted, any of 607 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: that will have in the Republican Party, you know. I mean, 608 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: if this had been eight years ago, you couldn't have 609 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: an indicted front with two impeachments. By the way, right, 610 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: I don't think we're there right now. The known unknowns, 611 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: as has been said, are so many that it's very 612 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: hard to predict where this Republican Party heads. Because Trump 613 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: is going to demand if he gets indicted, he is 614 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: going to demand fight for me. They are wronging me, 615 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: and a lot of Republican candidates who would oppose him 616 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: are going to be hard pressed to walk a line 617 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: where They're gonna most of them agree with him, because 618 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: that's how this party is now structurally built, but then 619 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: try to separate themselves from him and explain why he 620 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: It's gonna be very strange to watch. The big question 621 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: how should we think about contemporary conservatism and the gop 622 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: amid the human tornado that is Donald Trump? And does 623 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: this mean for Democrats. Let's take one more break, and 624 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: then I want to dive into more of this with 625 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: Maggie Haberman. So Mag's the Democrats have always struggled with 626 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: party unity themselves, and Biden, for all of his faults, 627 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: he's a kind of cringe worthy public speaker. He can 628 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: ramble on, but he has been able to sort of 629 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: keep a fractious party tethered on a common set of 630 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: goals thus far, hasn't he? He has, although I would 631 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: argue that he has had some help that I think 632 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: gets overlooked in the form of Nancy Pelosi up until 633 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: now and Chuck Schummer, and I think whatever people think 634 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: of both of them when Trump was in power, particularly 635 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: Schummer as a leader, I think that Pelosi was very 636 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: effective over a very long period of time. I think 637 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: that Schumer is seen by a lot of Democrats as 638 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: having grown into that role, and I think that has 639 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: benefited Biden. And she was masterful at keeping the Democratic 640 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 1: caucus together in the House. She was a unique figure 641 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: and I think that is going to only become clearer 642 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: over time. You know, we've talked about Trump colliding with 643 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: the GOP and the GOP colliding with itself. What do 644 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: you think Trump's arrival and trump is um has meant 645 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: for Democrats and the sort of deepening polarization between the parties. 646 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: You know, Look, I think that Trump and trump is 647 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: um were incredibly helpful to Biden and getting elected in 648 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the approach toward the presidency. 649 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the Biden has been and his aid has 650 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: been very overt about this, which is he's not Trump. 651 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: I'm not that now. I don't know that people necessarily 652 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: want the standard in public life to be not being 653 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: as bad as Trump. I don't know that that's a 654 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: good norm for the US, but it's certainly where we 655 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 1: are for right now. You're better than the alternative, right well, 656 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean, look, all the politics is you're better than 657 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: the alternative. The thing is is if in perpetuity, it's 658 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: it's not actually about the alternative. It's just about Trump, 659 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: and it's not about what you can offer, why you're 660 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: better and what your vision is. You know, like I said, 661 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: it was very effective for Biden. Biden in a re 662 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: election is going to have a lot of things that 663 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: he can point to. He's obviously got a problem right 664 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: now in terms of, you know, the White House statements 665 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: related to the documents that have been found at his 666 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: house and at the Penn Biden Center, which I just 667 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: want to stay off the bat. The circumstances that we 668 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: know of so far are not remotely comfortable to what 669 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: we know of with Trump and documents. Trump defied requests 670 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: to return the documents subpoenas he took thirteen boxes of 671 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: documents to his private residence. Look, it's not uncommon that 672 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: the Archives spends time trying to get stuff back after 673 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: presidents leave. What he is uncom is not returning it, 674 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: And I certainly don't understand the volume of classified material 675 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: that he had. But yes, to your point, there was 676 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: a subpoena and then a statement that everything had been returned, 677 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: and then when that turned out not to be true, 678 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: there was a search warrant and none of that has 679 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: been the case with Biden and and a possible obstruction 680 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: of justice on Trump's side of the LEDG. Nonetheless, this 681 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: is an issue for Biden. It's an issue for Biden. 682 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how much voters care. I really don't. 683 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how much of this actually 684 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: impacts anyone. I think that the White House has generally 685 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: taken the the stand, or at least the President has 686 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: that he's not going to give in to reporters asking 687 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: for more on this. That really is generally how they 688 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: handled the campaign, and it worked for them. I don't 689 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: know whether that's going to be sustainable with this. It 690 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: just depends on whether anything work comes out. But all 691 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: of that is to say, just just one other thing though, too, Mags, 692 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: is that Biden is also going to be confronted now 693 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: by a House that's controlled by Republicans. They're going to 694 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: launch vollies of investigations at him and his administration, which 695 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: is another thing he's got to contend with and his son, 696 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: and so I mean, I think it's very very complicated 697 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: in that respect, and navigating those investigations can be hard. 698 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: They do have the Democrats some help in the fact 699 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: that Republicans have shown difficulty both getting on the same 700 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: page and you know, executing things competently. But I think 701 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: you can't count on your opponent. This is kind of 702 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: my point about Trump, or part of it. You can't 703 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: count on your opponent blowing themselves up all the time, 704 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: and so that runs out that to other and your 705 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: opponent being a singular narcissist and sort of unhinged, deeply 706 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: insecure person. All of the things that gave Trump momentum 707 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: are also some of the things that are dragging him 708 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: down now and are things that other candidates don't bring 709 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: to the table. And while you've certainly seen Kevin McCarthy 710 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,919 Speaker 1: give into that insecurity, he's made a big point of saying, oh, 711 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: Trump was invaluable and getting me support for the speakership. 712 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's clearly not true because Trump endorsed him 713 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: and it didn't move votes for many days, but Trump 714 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: did it seems place some minor role at the very 715 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: last minute, right before the fifteenth ballot when McCarthy was 716 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: given the speakership. But in terms of how Democrats have cohesed, 717 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: if you look at where the party was in or 718 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: two now, Democrats have moved on a number of issues, 719 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: the party itself has moved to the left. I actually 720 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: think that part of what Biden navigate at it very 721 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: effectively in twenty was both wings. Fear of Trump has 722 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: been the unifying force for both wings. I just don't 723 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: know that that's gonna last the same way. And Biden 724 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: is going to be eighty two or almost eighty two 725 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: when the next presidential election rolls around in How are 726 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: senior leaders and strategists within the Democratic Party thinking about that? So, 727 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, look, it depends on what group 728 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: of people you're talking to. I'm always concerned about the 729 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: formulation of you know, the senior leaders and strategists because 730 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: it always makes people reiterates that the hope for people 731 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: that there's some group in the corner behind the curtain 732 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: and they're making the decisions. And that's not as we 733 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: know how either party works. But there are a number 734 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: of people who either are close to other potential candidates 735 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: or a newer generation of leadership, or even people who 736 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: are close to this White House who are concerned about 737 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: Biden's age. The White House does not like that conversation. 738 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: You know, I have had several Democrats and says to me, 739 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: it's a very very unfair conversation. It's something that voters 740 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: are aware of and can see on their own. It's 741 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: not as if this idea is being suggested to them, 742 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: so you know, it is something they're concerned about. Does 743 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: that mean they settle on a different standard bearer for 744 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: the party. I think the only way that happens is 745 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: if Biden says he's not running. And I see no 746 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: indication of that right now. It's so rare, as you know, 747 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: that somebody wins a term and then says, you know, 748 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: I'm done. And so, you know, Biden. I was thinking 749 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: about this the other day, Biden and Trump. We're looking 750 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: one obviously much more seriously than the other at presidential campaigns. 751 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: One actually declared one not but in seven Biden, I think, 752 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: withdrew his candidacy the month before Trump took his trip 753 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: to New Hampshire. Oh wow, that's such an interesting observation. 754 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: And so these are two people who have been, you know, 755 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: circling this particular basin for a long time. Yeah, and 756 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: so you know, Biden finally one, and he's actually been 757 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: seen by non hardcore Republicans as a pretty effective president. 758 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: So why would he decide he's not going to run it. 759 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: I just don't see it, Maggie. I always like to 760 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: ask guests what they learn along the way around this 761 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: particular topic we're discussing, and I'm wondering, what, when you 762 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: think about it, what has been your core takeaway? What 763 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: have you learned from Trump's collision with the GOP. What 764 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: I have learned from the collision with the GOP is 765 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: that and I write about this in the book. Trump 766 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: basically showed that Republicans in Washington were as craven as 767 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: he said they were. They all opposed him. I'm not 768 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: saying that they're the only politicians who are craven in 769 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, their calculations, but everyone opposed him 770 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: to varying degrees, and for the most part, people made concessions, 771 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: either because they had to work with him because he 772 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: was the leader of the party, or at least that's 773 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: what they told themselves, and that was the rationalization. The 774 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: willingness to go along with power despite claiming to be 775 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: anti government has been a defining theme of Republicans in 776 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: Congress during the Trump years. That's what I feel like 777 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: I have learned. Wow, Wow, Wow, we're already out of time, 778 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 1: predicting us Maggie, Yes, we have more to talk about. 779 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: You can follow Maggie Hayberman on Twitter at Maggie nyt, 780 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: read her work at The New York Times and by 781 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: her invaluable Trump biography Confidence Man at your local bookstore 782 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: or online. Thanks Maggie. Here at Crash Course, we believe 783 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. 784 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: In today's Crash Course, I learned that our political landscape 785 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: is so deeply inflames that all of us may need 786 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: to strap on a bunch of asbestos to get through it. 787 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: It's not an optimistic lesson, but that seems to be 788 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: the case. What did you learn? We'd love to hear 789 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion, handle 790 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag 791 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to our show 792 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review. 793 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: It helps more people find the show. This episode was 794 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: produced by The Indispensable and Amazarakis and Me. Our supervising 795 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing help from 796 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, Mike Niezza and Christine van Den 797 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: By Large. Blake Maples does our sound engineering and our 798 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: original theme song was composed by Luise Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. 799 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another crash course