1
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,600
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today

2
00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: we are bringing you the final Drilling Deep episode of

3
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,159
Speaker 1: the year, but don't worry, we'll have more for you

4
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,959
Speaker 1: next year. In this recurring series, Adam Lowenstein talks to

5
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,200
Speaker 1: the authors of various books that have come out that

6
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 1: tackle the climate crisis, democracy, energy transition, techno, utopia, AI,

7
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 1: all the things that are sort of feeding into the

8
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:40,360
Speaker 1: poly crisis. Today, I'm obsessed with today's book, Natasha Hakimisa

9
00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: FATA's Another World as Possible Lessons for America from around

10
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,880
Speaker 1: the globe. I love this book. It brings us nine

11
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 1: inspiring case studies from places that completely reject the quote

12
00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: unquote wisdom of the West and have done things differently

13
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 1: and had it work out.

14
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 2: Shocker.

15
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 1: A really great example is this idea that, of course

16
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: everyone knows that it's naive to think that fossil fuels

17
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 1: won't be around for decades to come. Of course we're

18
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 1: going to need them. Everybody knows this blah blah blah.

19
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 1: But more than a decade ago is a Pata tells

20
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,320
Speaker 1: us when wind and solar were actually way more expensive

21
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: than they are today. Uruguay, which had been dealing with

22
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,840
Speaker 1: droughts and energy shortages for a long time, transitioned its

23
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,480
Speaker 1: entire economy to almost exclusively renewables. Today, ninety eight percent

24
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 1: of its electricity comes from renewable sources. And they did

25
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,920
Speaker 1: that transition in just two years, and they used the

26
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 1: savings to slash the country's poverty rate from forty percent

27
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: into the single digits. That transformation is just one of

28
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 1: the nine stories that's Apata tells in this book. I

29
00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 1: love ending on this note that the way things are

30
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 1: is not the way they have to be. I hope

31
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

32
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 3: Forget the Africa you think. You know. This is Radio Workshop,

33
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 3: Real stories about young Africans. We help each other. Anything

34
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 3: that is pott in you, is potting me, is pott

35
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,200
Speaker 3: in my neighbor. We come to care that and find

36
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 3: a solution. In our latest episode, you'll meet youth from Namzama,

37
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 3: South Africa who are taking the electricity crisis into their

38
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 3: own hands, the world's youngest population, One story at a time,

39
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:50,800
Speaker 3: the Radio Workshop podcast.

40
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 4: The place I wanted to s start is conveniently right

41
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,200
Speaker 4: at the beginning of the book. In a lot of ways,

42
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 4: your family's story embodies the American dream, and yet you write,

43
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 4: there are plenty of other countries that offer their citizens

44
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,320
Speaker 4: not just a better future, but a better present.

45
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,639
Speaker 2: I'm the daughter of undocumented immigrants. My mom's from Mexico

46
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 2: and my father's from Iran, and I grew up in

47
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 2: a household where this idea of the American dream was

48
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 2: talked about quite a lot. And I often refer to

49
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,360
Speaker 2: my brothers in me as these little American dreams that

50
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 2: my parents had. But you know, we were the first

51
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: to get it. I was the first of my family

52
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 2: to get a college degree. So in some ways, that

53
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 2: American dream did come true.

54
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 5: But in a lot of.

55
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 2: Other ways, it started to feel like that American dream

56
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 2: that my parents had was actually more possible in some

57
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: of the countries that I've had the privilege to.

58
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,120
Speaker 5: Live in or to visit.

59
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 2: And a lot of that understanding came from a health

60
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 2: incident with my mom. So I write about this in

61
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 2: the introduction to the book. But when I was in

62
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 2: grad school, my mom, who hadn't had access to health care,

63
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 2: hadn't had health insurance for many years, had undiagnosed, untreated

64
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 2: diabetes that was diagnosed when she was being rushed to

65
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,839
Speaker 2: the emergency room nearly in a diabetic coma and had

66
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,160
Speaker 2: to have her right foot amputated, And at the time

67
00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 2: I was flooded with this concern that unfortunately many of

68
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 2: us have felt for my loved one, know how is

69
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 2: she going to survive? What was her life going to

70
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 2: be like moving forward? But at the same time I

71
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 2: had this added dread of how are we going to

72
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 2: afford the insulin she was going to need to stay alive,

73
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,279
Speaker 2: how were we going to afford all of the treatments

74
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 2: she needed? And I knew because I had lived in

75
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 2: countries like the UK where I live now, that it

76
00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 2: didn't have to be like this, that we could have

77
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 2: universal health care, and that were one of very few

78
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,919
Speaker 2: wealthy countries in the world to not have a system

79
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,520
Speaker 2: like that. So that's the personal side of things that

80
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 2: inspired this book. The kind of professional side of things

81
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,159
Speaker 2: is that I've been a journalist in mostly progressive media

82
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 2: in the US for about fifteen years now, and during

83
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 2: this time I've been writing and reporting on these issues

84
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 2: that feel so intractable in the States. It seems often

85
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,760
Speaker 2: we take one step forward and two steps back, or

86
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 2: many steps back.

87
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 5: In the case of right.

88
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 2: Now, and I was at the same time living in

89
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:42,840
Speaker 2: places like in Portugal or the UK again and a

90
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 2: number of other countries where it felt like they'd made

91
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 2: a lot of progress on some of the same issues,

92
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 2: sometimes the point of actually solving or getting very close

93
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 2: to solving some of the same problems we have in

94
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 2: the US.

95
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 5: So I really wanted to share.

96
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 2: These success stories from very different places. Is I tried

97
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,840
Speaker 2: to take as global perspective as possible and kind of

98
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 2: uplift them in what I would imagine well and what

99
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 2: is a kind of continuous battle on the left to

100
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 2: get some of these things done.

101
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,720
Speaker 4: Before we get into some of the hopeful stories that

102
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 4: you tell in the book from places around the world.

103
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,559
Speaker 4: There was a phrase you used early in the book

104
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 4: that struck me because it really felt very real and tangible,

105
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 4: especially right now. But certainly it's not like on January twentieth,

106
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,039
Speaker 4: all of the sudden, America became a really hard place

107
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 4: to live for most people. That was true on January

108
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 4: nineteenth just as much. And you write early in the book,

109
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 4: whenever I come home to the United States, I'm immediately

110
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 4: struck by the palpable despair sense in those around me,

111
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 4: and that felt like a very clear articulation of something

112
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,480
Speaker 4: that a lot of people I think feel and or

113
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 4: maybe don't even aren't aware of conscious One of the

114
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 4: themes to me, at least in the book was this

115
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 4: kind of the weight of precariousness or living in a

116
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 4: sense of precariousness that Americans feel, and like you said,

117
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 4: we assume is sort of the only story that can

118
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,840
Speaker 4: be told. This is sort of just the price of living.

119
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 4: But one of the points in the book is that no,

120
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be this way.

121
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 2: That despair that I feel in my communities and my

122
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 2: friends and loved ones in the US when I go

123
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 2: home or just even walking around, a lot of it

124
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 2: stems from this what is actually quite a real threat

125
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 2: of looming precariousness, as you put it, where if we

126
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 2: talk about healthcare, for example, the sense that you're just

127
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 2: one medical bill away from bankruptcy, or that you're actually

128
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 2: not going to be able to access that healthcare, or

129
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 2: your child isn't going to be able to access that

130
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 2: healthcare if they needed, if they have a disease, or

131
00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 2: you know, have a terrible accident or something again that

132
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 2: adds to this despair in the us are the victim

133
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 2: of a violent.

134
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,120
Speaker 5: Gun crime or a mass shooting.

135
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 2: And then there are things like my family is in

136
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,560
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, and it's sort of impossible to go to

137
00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 2: Los Angeles and not be immediately struck by the homelessness

138
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 2: crisis and by the fact that there's seemingly been an

139
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:39,959
Speaker 2: active decision to allow an entire population to go unhoused

140
00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,120
Speaker 2: and not sea housing as a basic rate.

141
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 5: So I could, you.

142
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 2: Know, I could list a number of other things that

143
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 2: kind of add to this sense that I have when

144
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,319
Speaker 2: I go home, but those are the two that hit

145
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 2: me sort of immediately.

146
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 4: On the fun list of existential threats to humanity. That

147
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 4: sense of despair really pervades a lot of discussions about

148
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 4: the climate crisis right now.

149
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 5: So I want to.

150
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 4: Talk about Uruguay's renewable energy transition. Can you tell an

151
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 4: overview of the story of what happened in Uruguay and

152
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 4: their pretty remarkable energy transition.

153
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to back up for a second

154
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 2: and point out so this book has what I would

155
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,319
Speaker 2: call kind of crypto crypt policies. You have everything from

156
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 2: universal healthcare to paid parensal leave to you know, I

157
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 2: end in universal pensions and in between. There are a

158
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,600
Speaker 2: lot of other policies and places that I take my

159
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:37,880
Speaker 2: readers with me too.

160
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 5: But I couldn't really.

161
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 2: Conceive of a book that talked about progressive policies like

162
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 2: paid parental leave that didn't also talk about climate change

163
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 2: or biodiversity loss. And I mean down to the fact

164
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,680
Speaker 2: that there is if there is no planet to have

165
00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,720
Speaker 2: children on, what is the use of paid parntal leave,

166
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 2: for example? And so I chose only two I you know,

167
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 2: if I had more room, I would have chosen many,

168
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 2: many more. But urdu Why was a really fascinating example

169
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 2: to me of how a much lower income country could

170
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 2: do the sort of unthinkable and actually green their grid

171
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 2: in less than two years. And that story, like a

172
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 2: lot of the stories in the book, starts with the crisis.

173
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 2: So Uruay doesn't have any naturally occurring fossil fuels. It

174
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 2: still hasn't found any despite searching for them. And because

175
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 2: of the fact that they have a publicly owned utility

176
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 2: that's been around, you know, since the early nineteen hundreds

177
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,680
Speaker 2: called um which is their their electric utility, the government

178
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,920
Speaker 2: was essentially in charge of keeping the lights on. Again

179
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,360
Speaker 2: because it's a low income country and it depended on

180
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,559
Speaker 2: hydro drig dams for more than half of its electricity needs,

181
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 2: and the rest of it came from imported fossil fuels,

182
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 2: usually from Argentina and Brazil.

183
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,239
Speaker 5: Neighboring Argentina and Brazil.

184
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 2: Whenever there were severe droughts, and they became more frequent

185
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,120
Speaker 2: and more severe over the years because of the climate crisis,

186
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,719
Speaker 2: they really struggled to keep the lights on. They had

187
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,720
Speaker 2: rolling blackouts and power cuts, and it was incredibly disruptive

188
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 2: to every day life, everything from obviously civilian life to businesses.

189
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,959
Speaker 2: I went to a factory, a textile factory, where the

190
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 2: owner told me, you know, we would just whenever there

191
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 2: was a blackout, we would just have to stop working.

192
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 5: There was nothing we could do.

193
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,719
Speaker 2: And there was a real recognition in the early two

194
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,680
Speaker 2: thousands that this was a crisis that was affecting everyone

195
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 2: and everything and something had to be done to address it.

196
00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,640
Speaker 2: So in two thousand and five you have the first

197
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 2: fit damp left wing coalition party winning an election and

198
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 2: they're actually back in power now, but this was the

199
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 2: first time they were elected, and there were already talks

200
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 2: about these key issues that do I had to address.

201
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 2: Just before twenty ten when Pepe Muhika, who unfortunately recently

202
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,160
Speaker 2: passed away. He was famous for driving or he was

203
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 2: called the most humble president in the world and was

204
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 2: famous for driving around and like a beat up pastel

205
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:37,960
Speaker 2: blue beetle. Right before he comes into office, after he

206
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 2: was elected, he decides that his government should set up

207
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 2: cross party agreements on a number it's four key issues

208
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,680
Speaker 2: that needed to be addressed and that needed to have

209
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 2: long term plans in place. So he didn't want to,

210
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 2: for example, you know, lose the next election and have

211
00:12:59,240 --> 00:12:59,600
Speaker 2: all of.

212
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 5: These plans and just go to waste. So one of

213
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,680
Speaker 5: those key issues was the energy crisis.

214
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,640
Speaker 2: Even you know, so this is twenty ten, even before

215
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 2: or just about the time that his government starts, the

216
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 2: phantam negotiates a cross party agreement with all political parties

217
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 2: in oda way in which they essentially agree to yes,

218
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 2: continuing to look for fossil fuels because they think this

219
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:32,000
Speaker 2: is important, but actually exploring renewable energy on a mass scale.

220
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:38,200
Speaker 2: And this starts a record breaking transition in which not

221
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 2: only did electricity remain a public good just to back

222
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 2: up the public utility it was until then in charge

223
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 2: of everything from generation to distribution to transmission of electricity

224
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 2: in the whole country. They opened up generation to private

225
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,800
Speaker 2: companies because they just didn't have again, being a low

226
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 2: income country, didn't have the funds to actually do it

227
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,600
Speaker 2: all themselves and set up all of these what would

228
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 2: be expensive wind farms and solar farms you're talking about

229
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 2: twenty ten, when it was actually more expensive than now.

230
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,360
Speaker 5: They put out calls for.

231
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 2: Private companies to come and set up wind farms and

232
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 2: solar farms and also biomass throughout the country.

233
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:25,680
Speaker 5: And it's been.

234
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 2: So successful that you now have a country that runs

235
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 2: on almost entirely unrenewable energy. It's something between ninety seven

236
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 2: to ninety eight percent of energies if electricity generated in

237
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 2: otherwise renewable energy. At the same time, that energy conception

238
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,400
Speaker 2: actually increased because the country went from being a low

239
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 2: income country to a middle income country. People were doing

240
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 2: things like buying or conditioning units for the first time,

241
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 2: and a lot of other electrome domestics that increased the

242
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 2: demand for electricity. Despite this, rather than spending hundreds of

243
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 2: millions of dollars every time they had a dry year

244
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 2: or a drought lasted longer than they expected, they've gone

245
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 2: to saving those millions and also selling their excess green

246
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 2: energy to neighboring Argentina and Brazil.

247
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 4: This transition emerged from a crisis, and that's one of

248
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 4: the patterns that seems to play out across some of

249
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 4: the stories throughout this book. Things in some ways had

250
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 4: to get really bad before these kind of changes could

251
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 4: either build a coalition or the public support or all

252
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 4: of the above to move forward. Can you talk about

253
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 4: that sense of crisis, because I think obviously in America,

254
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 4: lots of people, for good reason, are feeling pretty as

255
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 4: we talked about before, pretty despairing and feeling like the

256
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 4: nation is indeed in crisis. I found it very encouraging

257
00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 4: that so many of these good things, these good policy,

258
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 4: whether on climate or other issues, emerged from really a

259
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 4: moment of crisis.

260
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 2: That was one of the most hopeful things that even

261
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: personally came out of the book for me was that

262
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,920
Speaker 2: I started to realize there was this pattern of crisis,

263
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 2: of really dark periods yielding long lasting solutions that actually

264
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 2: really improved the fate of the people of a country,

265
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 2: but also of the country itself in many ways. And

266
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 2: so you know, if I go back to the National

267
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 2: Health Service, the first universal health care system in the

268
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 2: world that came out of the literal ashes of World

269
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: War Two, as Britain was trying to chart a different

270
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 2: path forward after the devastation of World War Two. You

271
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 2: look at UDAUAI, these rolling blackouts, this inability to keep

272
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 2: the lights on in the most literal sense, and that

273
00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 2: crisis leading to a consensus across the political spectrum that's

274
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 2: something quite different needed to be done. I looked at Portugal,

275
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 2: country that I've lived in and hold quite dear to

276
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 2: my heart, dealing with a dual epidemic of overdose deaths

277
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,159
Speaker 2: and opioid use and rising HIV AIDS rates, and having

278
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,200
Speaker 2: everyone in the country know someone essentially or have someone

279
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 2: in their own family that had some sort of problematic addiction.

280
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 2: As they called it, was something like one in every

281
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 2: hundred Portuguese people, and again creating this consensus that something

282
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,720
Speaker 2: different had to be done, that something something that hadn't

283
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 2: been tried before, needed to be tried in this moment

284
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,040
Speaker 2: because whatever they were doing just wasn't working.

285
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 5: And I think about that a lot.

286
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 2: In the US, as you said, it's not like all

287
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 2: of our problems started with this second Drump administration or

288
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 2: even the front first Drump administration. There have been a

289
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 2: lot of people who have been suffering for a very

290
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 2: long time under our current systems, and in fact, I

291
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 2: would argue that Trump is very much a symptom of

292
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 2: this broad discontent that we're seeing. And more than discontent,

293
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 2: a lot of people feel that they can't really survive

294
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: in the country as it is for a number of

295
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 2: different reasons. And I think it was Alexander Cozikcortez who

296
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 2: recently said, maybe this is the end of the broken way.

297
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 2: Maybe things are going to be so blatantly broken, And

298
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 2: I really wish this wasn't the case. I obviously wish

299
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 2: we could come to better solutions without everything falling apart.

300
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 4: But here we are.

301
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 2: But here we are. And I think that the key

302
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,440
Speaker 2: here is that, as devastating as it is to see

303
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 2: all of these things being broken, we can't just give

304
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 2: up when we see this. We actually have to recognize, Hey,

305
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,880
Speaker 2: maybe some of these things were worth saving, and let's

306
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 2: think about what kind of society we wanted to walk

307
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 2: chart moving forward. What kind of systems will work for

308
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 2: the majority, for the many, not the few.

309
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 4: Do you think Uruguay's transition could have happened the way

310
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 4: it did if they did have more of an entrenched

311
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry. And obviously this is pure speculation, but

312
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,640
Speaker 4: I'm just curious from you know, having spent as much

313
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,400
Speaker 4: time there as you did, and obviously you know, witnessing

314
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 4: other countries like the United States, where there is this

315
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, I would say the most

316
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 4: powerful industry in the history of humanity. That seemed like

317
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 4: one of the blessings in some ways of uruguay situation

318
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 4: was they didn't have that to the same extent, at.

319
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 2: Least I think it would have been a lot harder.

320
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 2: You have the example of Argentina that's right next door.

321
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 5: That has a lot of oil reserves and has not

322
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 5: been as interested any full green transition.

323
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 2: That's the case in a lot of countries, And you're

324
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: right that it was sort of luck, but in many

325
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 2: ways it had been a curse throughout the past century.

326
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 2: Not having fossil fuels really held wy back. But I

327
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: think that something that I'm on Mendez, who is a

328
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,199
Speaker 2: physicist who helped lead the transition from the Department of

329
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: Energy within the philadempial government, said to me is really

330
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: important we're going to get to a point in which

331
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 2: he thinks there are economies that have transitioned in their

332
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 2: economies that haven't, and those that have not transitioned are

333
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 2: going to suffer economic consequences that they're already we're starting

334
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 2: to see the impact of right, Like just about the

335
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 2: economic side of things, there was a twenty twenty two

336
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 2: Oxford University study that said that the world could save

337
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 2: twelve trillion dollars by twenty fifty if we ditched fossil fuels.

338
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 2: There are very clear financial incentives to transition to clean energy.

339
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 2: The other side of things is that we can't afford

340
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 2: not to. Right, as you were saying, we're facing an

341
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 2: existential question here when it comes to the climate crisis.

342
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 2: You know, what kind of planet is going to be

343
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: left in the coming years to fight over these profits for?

344
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 2: You know, I think that it's true that the fossil

345
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 2: fuel industry is incredibly powerful, but I'm also hopeful that

346
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 2: the mood music is there and that more and more

347
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 2: people are recognizing there just is no actual future without

348
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 2: a just green transition.

349
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 4: One of the things I thought that was really interesting

350
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 4: about Uruguay's story was something you mentioned toward the end

351
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,679
Speaker 4: of that chapter, which is that climate change was not

352
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 4: the focus of this effort, of this campaign, It was

353
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 4: really an economic one, and that seemed to underscore what

354
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,959
Speaker 4: you were just saying about, you know, purely from an

355
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 4: economic rather than an existential perspective, And I found that

356
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 4: kind of a really interesting, particularly for us on the left.

357
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 4: We talk about climate in the way that you and

358
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 4: I have been for good reason, because it is an

359
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 4: existential threat to all of humanity in the planet, but

360
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 4: also there is a sense in some ways that we

361
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 4: don't want to make the economic argument because it's it

362
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 4: almost feels like conceding the terms of the debate to

363
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 4: a more neoliberal perspective. Can you talk a little bit

364
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 4: about the I guess, the messaging, the public outreach, the

365
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 4: way that this was framed to the people of Uruguay

366
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 4: as an economic issue rather than a climate change issue.

367
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, I went through so many interviews with

368
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: everyone from policymakers to electrical engineers, to people running the

369
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: wind farms, to just people on the streets, and very

370
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: few times, if any what they mentioned climate change unless

371
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: I brought it up. It just wasn't really the driving

372
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: force behind this green energy transition, which feels counterintuitive to

373
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: those of us on the left in the US, as

374
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: you said, who see this primarily as a question of

375
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: fighting this existential threat. But what do I did something

376
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: really fascinating in that, so, first of all, in a

377
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: very real material way, everyone into what do I could

378
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: feel this crisis right, They couldn't keep the lights on,

379
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 2: they had rolling blackouts, and so it was a question of, hey,

380
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: we want to keep the lights on, here's what we're

381
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: going to do. Then it was framed as something that

382
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: would bring a ton of investment into a relatively small,

383
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: low income country. I found it fascinating that the calls

384
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: for renewable energy projects for wind farms and solo farms

385
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 2: before two thousand and eight essentially went unanswered. They were

386
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: trying to explore this before, and the main wind turbine

387
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: manufacturers were too busy with larger economies to really care

388
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: what I Was doing or what they wanted to do.

389
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: And it was actually the two thousand and eight financial

390
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 2: crisis that created an opportunity for Uruguay because a lot

391
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: of larger, wealthier countries like Germany and Spain, and I'm

392
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 2: sure projects in the US as well were put on

393
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: hold because of this banking crisis, and those same manufacturers

394
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: that weren't really interested in Uguay at the time a

395
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 2: pre two thousand and eight called Uruguay Up and well

396
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: the government like, hey, do you still need these? We

397
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: actually have you know, we have the time to do

398
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: this now. So again it was this question of the

399
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: financial conditions for something like this to happen. Then there

400
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 2: was the question of electricity prices, which I point out

401
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: in the book are actually still relatively high for the region,

402
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: despite the fact that there have been these massive savings

403
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: by transitioning to renewable energy, and that again that threat

404
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: of it was a threat of a two point five

405
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: billion dollar bill that loomed in dry years has been

406
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: slashed to less than seven hundred million.

407
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 5: Dollars a year on average. To keep the lights on.

408
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: The government made a decision that was very controversial, which

409
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: was to take those savings and actually fund anti poverty measures.

410
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: And in many ways, again this really paid off because

411
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: even though people weren't necessarily feeling the economic benefits of

412
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: a green transition, you know, in their electricity bills, they

413
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: did feel it in a lot of other ways. Under

414
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: Phanathempio from two thousand and five to twenty nineteen, poverty

415
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: was reduced from forty percent to under nine percent. That

416
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: isn't increasi This wasn't just clean energy, but certainly being

417
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: able to stabilize your energy supply had a huge impact

418
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: on how the country was run. I understand the reluctance

419
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: on the left to talk about green policies as purely

420
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: economic policies. And yet if we do not make this

421
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 2: argument and we see that space, we are missing a

422
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: huge opportunity to point out that actually people will benefit

423
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 2: economically from my green transition.

424
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 4: A couple of the folks you interviewed described the renewable

425
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: energy transition and energy policy in general as a tool

426
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: for social justice, as a tool for wealth redistribution. It

427
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 4: reminded me of some of the foundational principles of the

428
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 4: Green New Deal. This is not just a climate thing,

429
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 4: This is not just an energy thing. This is really

430
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 4: reshaping society in the way that, as you just said,

431
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 4: going from forty percent to nine percent of folks living

432
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: below the poverty rate is quite remarkable.

433
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something that again I think on the

434
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: left we could talk a lot more about, because obviously

435
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: sacrifices are going to have to be made on some

436
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: level for some of these policies to be implemented. But

437
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: this is actually a place where we can highlight how

438
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: much better lives are going.

439
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 5: To be, just down to the air we're going.

440
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: To breathe, because you know, you're rather than having a

441
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: fossil fuel generator in your neighborhood, you're going to have

442
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: a solar farm, which doesn't have that impact on air pollution,

443
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: an air quality, which again has all of these knock

444
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: on effects in society. And so I personally don't see

445
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: the downside.

446
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 4: And talking about this, one of the themes or one

447
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 4: of the lessons that you outline at the end of

448
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 4: the book is the importance of public ownership. I was

449
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 4: thinking about it in the context of the energy transition.

450
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 4: More broadly, there is a fossil fuel industry. That fossil

451
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 4: fuel industry is deeply motivated by short term profits. That's

452
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 4: not exactly breaking news. And there's sort of two different

453
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 4: aspects to the public ownership the nationalization debate. There is

454
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: what do you do with these legacy industries? How do

455
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 4: you get them to change if they will not do

456
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 4: so economically or willingly or politically, and then what do

457
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 4: you replace them with? And it seemed like one of

458
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: the lessons from the book was the public control the

459
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 4: nationalization on both ends of that spectrum, you know, controlling

460
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 4: what already exists and maintaining you know, a public role

461
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 4: in what comes next.

462
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: Definitely, I'm a big believer in public ownership. I have

463
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: seen how it allows critical infrastructure to be built for

464
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: everyone and not just for those who can.

465
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 5: Pay for it.

466
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: Public ownership is really the only way that we can

467
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: ensure that that's the case. And you know, I looked

468
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: at universal public schools in Finland, universal healthcare system in

469
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: the uk Urduwai's grid which is publicly owned, and a

470
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: number of other places, and to me, all of these

471
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: stories and more really highlight how important it is for

472
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: these things to belong to us, for people to feel

473
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: like they have ownership over these So it's not just

474
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: the way that things are run, but the reality is that,

475
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: you know, corporations, private companies answer to their shareholders if that,

476
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: whereas in a democracy which we still live in, holding

477
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: non tight yes, I mean, the government and these publicly

478
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: owned utilities, for example, have to answer to the citizens

479
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: and I feel that, especially in the UK with the

480
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: National Health Service, there has been a history in the

481
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: past few decades of underfunding and stealth privatization. It's still

482
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: great in many ways, but once even greater universal healthcare system.

483
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: But I'm really hopeful that the National Health Service will

484
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: continue to exist and thrive, and hopefully some of the

485
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: damage that's been done will be reversed. Because most Britons,

486
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: I am reluctant to say all, but I do. It's

487
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: widely beloved, feel that this belongs to them. You know,

488
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: they know that the National Health Service belongs to them,

489
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: and when they complain about it, I say good because

490
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: that's how things get better. But it belongs to them so.

491
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 5: They can fight for it to get better. There are

492
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 5: no shortage.

493
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Of unions and activists and other civil society groups that

494
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: are constantly fighting for a better NHS when it comes to.

495
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 5: The public utility with it.

496
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: In nod way, what I found really interesting was what

497
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: you pointed out that someone said to me was that

498
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: it is a matter that that energy distribution can be redistributive,

499
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: it can be a matter of social justice. I don't

500
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: see how you would do that if you hand over

501
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: everything to the private sector because they're interested in profit,

502
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: whereas hopefully you have government and publicly owned utilities that

503
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: are interested in the public good, and so you had

504
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: people like it I'm on min this who I mentioned earlier,

505
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: ensuring that all of the contracts that were set up

506
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: with private generators, private wind farms, and solar farms made

507
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: it so that, as he describes it, electricity remained a

508
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: de facto public good in uru way, because those private

509
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: generators could only sell that electricity back to the public

510
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: utility or and use some of it themselves.

511
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 5: So these are the.

512
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: Kind of things that can't really happen if you don't

513
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: have public ownership. Another thing that Gonzada Cassadavia, who was

514
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: the head of the public utility, told me was that

515
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: you as a country, as a community, need to come

516
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: together to decide what's best for your local needs. And

517
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: he talked about how different that energy transition might have

518
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: been if you had a bunch of multinational companies coming

519
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: in and saying, well, we'll profit more from putting a

520
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: win farm here, But does that make sense in terms

521
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: of the broader picture. They were able to again decide

522
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: all of these things with the public interests at heart

523
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: rather than with profit on their minds.

524
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 4: There were a few times, well really throughout the book,

525
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 4: but in that chapter in particular, where I was just thinking, like,

526
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: you know, McKinsey would love to get in here. There

527
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 4: are so many opportunities for extracting from public resources. It

528
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 4: seemed like such an important thing for the country to

529
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: really kind of extraction proof the entire system by keeping

530
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 4: it in public hands. You know, one of the things

531
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: you point out throughout the book is an upside of

532
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: public ownership is that the expertise in these industries and

533
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 4: these policies stays within the government, which within public control.

534
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 4: Whereas you know, if these consulting firms or whomever come in,

535
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 4: they're the ones who have the expertise and not only

536
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 4: are shaping the policy, but are really in control of whether,

537
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 4: you know, where all the benefits.

538
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: Of it go.

539
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: Definitely, and it got to the point where as soon

540
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: as there was some money for some the owned wind

541
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: farms and solar farms, they set them up. Because the

542
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 2: public utility understood and the people who were leading all

543
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: of this understood that it was really important to keep

544
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: that know how, that knowledge within the public utility as

545
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: well within the government, so that it meant that they

546
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 2: could negotiate better with the private sector when they needed to,

547
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: but also so that they could, you know, run some

548
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: of this critical infrastructure themselves.

549
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 4: Let's talk about Costa Rica a little bit. I think

550
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: in some ways reading the chapter about Costa Rica's biodiversity

551
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: law reminded me a lot more of the US policy

552
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 4: making us because whereas Uruguay's came out of a moment

553
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 4: of crisis and it was a radical transformation in just

554
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 4: a couple of years, the way you described Costa Rica's

555
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 4: process was much more convoluted, much longer, a lot more

556
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 4: entrenched interests saying we like things the way they are,

557
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: a lot of prior supporters getting cold feet and changing

558
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 4: their minds. We won't spend quite as much time on

559
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: this story as we did on Uruguay, but can you

560
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 4: just talk a little bit about that process, because I

561
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 4: think it will resonate with people who follow US politics.

562
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: So many people within Cosatico started to recognize this devastating

563
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 2: crisis that was taking shape in the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties,

564
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 2: in which there was severe deforestation. It's something like sixty

565
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: I can't remember now. Maybe they lost forty percent of

566
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: their rainforest for things like banana plantations or other for

567
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: profit endeavors, often run by multinational or American owned companies.

568
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 5: This goesthetic.

569
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: For those of you who have been there, you already

570
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: know this, But it's this incredible place, one of the

571
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: most biodiverse places on Earth, in which it because it's

572
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: in Central America, it's sort of this corridor between different

573
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: flora and fauna that come together and create this incredible place.

574
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: And there was a sense that some people had and

575
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: this is where the entrenched interest kind of got in

576
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: the way, as you point out, but there was a

577
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: sense that these natural resources were the riches that Costa

578
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 2: Rica had that they didn't have. It wasn't a wealthy country,

579
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: but this was their wealth, the natural environment that they

580
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: lived in, and it was being decimated right before their eyes.

581
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: And the story kind of goes back to the Rio

582
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: Convention on Biodiversity in which there is in a biologist,

583
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: an environmental lawyer, and a local policy maker that start

584
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 2: to pay attention to what the CBD is saying, right

585
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: and it's talking about the equitable distribution of the benefits

586
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: of biodiversity and how key this is to sustainability to

587
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: actually not just maintaining the bio diversity that's left around

588
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: the world, but also to reversing some of that damage

589
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: that they've been seeing in their own backyard. And so

590
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: the three of them came together to write a version

591
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: of the CBD that took into consideration Costa Rica's own

592
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: political and cultural and environmental context and came up with

593
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: a biodiversity law in which they were essentially trying to

594
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: codify those guarantees that especially the benefits of the biodiversity

595
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 2: in Costa Rica belonged to Costa Ricans and to future

596
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 2: generations and needed to be safeguarded for future generations, which

597
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 2: is actually quite a radical thing. It's unfortunate that it's

598
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: quite a radical thing to say, but it is true

599
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: that to say that the natural resources of a nation

600
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: belong to the people of that nation is something that

601
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 2: can upset a lot of you know, entrenched interests as

602
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: you point out, Yeah.

603
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: And to do so in a way that's not describing

604
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 4: them in an extractive way of like, these are our

605
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 4: resources to be used and burned and consumed.

606
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 5: Right, And so.

607
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 2: These three people coming together, if their names are VI

608
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: and surlis Patrisa Mardial and Luis Martinez coming together and

609
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: trying to not trying to writing this great biodiversity law

610
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: and then trying to pass it starts a more than

611
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: ten year battle within the Costa Rican government in which

612
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: you know, there was initially support as you pointed out,

613
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: and then within Louise Marthinus's.

614
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 5: Political party, then it was retracted.

615
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: And then once the biodiversity law did pass in nineteen

616
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 2: ninety eight, there was an environmental vice minister that felt

617
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: that it entrenched on her rights as a vice minister, and.

618
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 5: So then kind of put it on pause.

619
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 2: It became this very long battle in which the biodiversity

620
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: law slowly gained more and more support amongst different groups

621
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: within Kostrican society. But importantly those three people and many

622
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 2: others and many environmentalists, many activists, academics saw the importance

623
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: of the biodiversity law and when around even in that

624
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: time in which it couldn't be implemented, actually spreading the

625
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 2: lessons of the biodiversity law. They had these great kind

626
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: of picture books even for children, that I've been fortunate

627
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: to get some copies of that explained what the biodiversity

628
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: law was.

629
00:38:58,719 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 5: And then they went.

630
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: Around and held you know, workshops with local communities across

631
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: the country to talk about the biodiversity law and also

632
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 2: to get more input into it. And I think that

633
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: this is one of the keys to that biodiversity law

634
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: is that it tries to create mechanisms that ensure that

635
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: locals in every community and in the broader Coastriacan community

636
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: have a say in how their biodiversity is managed. So

637
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: this translates into a couple of things. One is the

638
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: SNAC is formed, which is the National Park Service. Within SNAC,

639
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: thanks to the Biodiversity Law, you have regional, local, and

640
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: national councils that are made up by different communities and

641
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: different groups that all get a say in how national

642
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 2: parks and public lands are being managed. And those groups,

643
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 2: you know, include also tribal leaders, which is really key

644
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: to a lot of this biodiversity law is shaped. And

645
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: then you have the Gonachaibio, which is an agency that's

646
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: dedicated solely to ensuring that the benefits of biodiversity are

647
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: equitably distributed, which sounds like this kind of grand concept

648
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: but in many practical ways translates into, for example, ensuring

649
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: that any policies that are written do not infringe upon

650
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: those rights, so any trade agreements. I mean, this was

651
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 2: really controversial, and this is they had the Central American

652
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: equivalent of NAFTA KAFDAM, that contradicted the biodiversity law, and

653
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: there was a huge battle again speaking of these long

654
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: political battles over changing a certain part of it so

655
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: that KAFTA could go into effect and Pastrica could sign

656
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: this treaty. In many ways, the Kostriacan example, the Kosturcan

657
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 2: Biodiversity Law is sort of an unfinished story in that

658
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: I think that the key parts of it are so

659
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: essential for all of us to learn from, especially this

660
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: idea that you can't really just corden off large swaths

661
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: of the natural environment and then tell people okay, well,

662
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: in the case of cost Rica, this is for the

663
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: tourists to enjoy, and you who are doing subsistence farming

664
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: now have to figure something else out. It at least

665
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 2: created legal mechanisms in which communities could protest that and

666
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: find ways to be more involved in the decisions that

667
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: were being made about their natural environment. But the reality

668
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: is that it has been a mixed bag in terms

669
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: of the implementation.

670
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 5: There's still a lot of struggles.

671
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: Especially with the recent right wing government that's been in place.

672
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: Although there are really great important successes to point out,

673
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: for example that sixty percent of cost Rica's rainforests have

674
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: been restored, they still have a long way to go

675
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: towards fully implementing all of the parts of the Biodiversity

676
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 2: Law in.

677
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 4: Terms of public support for the policy. More broadly, have

678
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 4: these participatory measures worked if people feel bought in.

679
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: There has been over the past few decades a real

680
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: sense of ownership over these natural riches that has spread

681
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: throughout Costa Rica, and I think a lot of it

682
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: and many people do point to this, A lot of

683
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: it has been down to the Biodiversity Law and importantly

684
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: to those efforts that were made to inform communities, to

685
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 2: bring communities into decision making processes around the country. There

686
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: is a really great example of how communities can be

687
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: actively involved in things like national parks on the Caribbean

688
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: coast and Kawitha, which I read about in the book,

689
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: where a local community and this was actually right before

690
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: the Biodiversity Law was written in past but it was

691
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: something that essentially applies the Biodiversity Law. Before it's written,

692
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: there was a local community that decided to come together

693
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: and actually occupy the local national park in order to

694
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: retain rights over the decision making in that national park.

695
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: And to this day they have set up and it's

696
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: one of the first national parks in the world to

697
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 2: do this. They have set up a co management or

698
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: a co stewardship model. That means that you have people

699
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: who live and breathe Gawrita the town making decisions taking

700
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: care of the national park, protecting that biodiversity not just

701
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: within the national park, but within the community itself, and

702
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: ensuring that the benefits are felt by the whole community,

703
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: not just by a few people.

704
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 5: Who work there.

705
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you about something that Amy Westerbilt

706
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 4: has written about recently for Drilled. It could be interpreted,

707
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 4: I think in a really pessimistic way. I found it

708
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: actually somewhat hopeful. We're encouraging a silver lining of some kind.

709
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 3: I don't know.

710
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 4: I'm curious what you make of it. So she wrote

711
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 4: a couple months ago about one potential consequence of the

712
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 4: second Trump regime is that on a lot of policy areas,

713
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 4: including perhaps most fundamentally, climate change, the rest of the

714
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 4: world might just move on with the United States in

715
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 4: a way. That is obviously a huge missed opportunity. And

716
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 4: you know, we can't fully tackle the climate crisis without

717
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 4: the United States changing how we consume energy. But there

718
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 4: are some areas, including climate, where maybe it's just better

719
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: if everyone else gets on without us. I was wondering

720
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 4: about that or thinking about that while reading this book.

721
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 4: Because the stories in it are clearly applicable to the

722
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 4: United States. We can learn a lot from them. We

723
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 4: can see what's possible elsewhere and give us hope and

724
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 4: a roadmap and ideas for what we can do at home.

725
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 4: But in another way, I felt like some of these

726
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 4: stories were hopeful in the sense that not everyone is

727
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 4: addicted to market worship the same way that the United

728
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: States is. They are also moving on in ways that

729
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 4: are different from what we're doing. And I found something

730
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 4: very encouraging about that. And I just wonder what you

731
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 4: make of that whole You know, maybe one consequence of

732
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: the moment we're living in right now is that the

733
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 4: world becomes a little bit less America centric, and that

734
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 4: might not be a bad thing.

735
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: Just to say that I agree with you that the

736
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: lessons in this book, that the policies and the stories,

737
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 2: and I try as much as possible to really tell

738
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 2: these stories as stories and introduce you to the characters

739
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: that I met so that they felt as real to

740
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: you as they did to me being in the room.

741
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 2: With that they are applicable around the world. You know

742
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: that the subtitle is of the book is Another World

743
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: as possible lessons for America from around the globe.

744
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 5: It could be really lessons for anywhere.

745
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: I've done some talks in the UK and in Portugal,

746
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: and I've been asked what's applicable here, and I think

747
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: almost everything is in the UK.

748
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 5: It was interesting, I even said, you know.

749
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: Even relearning about how important the National Health Services is

750
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 2: worth worth doing. But going back to this idea that

751
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: it's maybe not such a bad thing for other countries

752
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: not to look to the US for leadership, or really

753
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: for the US not to be imposing the American way

754
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: of life or the American interest. Really, I think I

755
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 2: should say on other countries can be positive.

756
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 4: That's a good way to put it.

757
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: I really do agree that that's a positive thing, and

758
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: that actually maybe we'll see and I think that this

759
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: is the case now more and more in the US

760
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: that as Americans will see that all along there have

761
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: been really important lessons in other places that because of

762
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: American exceptionalism, we have not been paying attention to. You know,

763
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: I have friends who work in politics in the States,

764
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: and they often tell me that if they bring up

765
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: something that's happening in Portugal or in Norway, there's always

766
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: this immediately dismissive sort of well, that's there and this

767
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: is here, and this is obviously something I hear a

768
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: lot too, and I try to reframe that and say, well,

769
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: how is it that scrappy uru Way can learn the

770
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: importance of a just green transition, and we, the wealthiest

771
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: country in the history of the planet, seemingly can't with

772
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: all of these immense resources. Yeah, so I would agree

773
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: with that, and I like you, and I find that

774
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: actually hopeful, especially you know, I'm the daughter of immigrants,

775
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: and I grew up with multiple histories, so the American

776
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 2: narrative of the world wasn't the only one that I

777
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: went out and had under my belt when I was

778
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: thinking about the world. And so maybe what we'll see

779
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: is actually that, yeah, a lot of good could come

780
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: from this at some point. Obviously, it feels terrible right

781
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: now to think that with how much devastation. The Trump

782
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: administration is waking on you know, immigrant communities with these

783
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: ice raids, and how he's you know, his administration is

784
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: slashing funding that had already been allocated for things like

785
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: solar panels for low and middle income families. How they're

786
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: trying to open up public lands and including your national parks.

787
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 5: To more drilling and oil exploration. This is all terrifying.

788
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 2: And as you said, there really isn't a significant way

789
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: forward out of the class in crisis without the US

790
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: completely changing its energy maya. But I'm also hopeful that

791
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: at the end of this administration we will get another

792
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: chance to rebuild, and that in this time more and

793
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: more and more people will become aware of what was

794
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: already broken and what needs to be fixed and what

795
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 2: kinds of solutions.

796
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 5: Work for more people.

797
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 4: Has anything about your thinking changed over the last six

798
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 4: or seven months, anything that you wrote in this book

799
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 4: that I get the impression that you finished it maybe

800
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 4: before election day, But it doesn't feel like it was

801
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 4: written for I don't know a Kamala Harris administration. It

802
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 4: feels like it it stands on its own, regardless of

803
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 4: where we are.

804
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that because writing a book, you know,

805
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 2: I write articles as well, and writing a book is

806
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: such a different endeavor in that at some point you

807
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: can't update it anymore and it becomes a printed, physical

808
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: being out in the world, and I can't you go

809
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: back to the editor and say, hey, can you update this?

810
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: This moved along very quickly up until the last minute.

811
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: And as you said, I did write this during the

812
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 2: mostly during the Bend administration, but I did start this

813
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 2: whole project during the first Trump administration. I did have

814
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: hope then, as I do now that we are still

815
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: able as a collective to change things. And I do

816
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: feel that both of our main political parties have failed

817
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 2: us in so many ways that for me, this wasn't

818
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: a book that I was writing, like you said, for

819
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris administration or for Democrats. You know, I think

820
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: that there are a lot of people who vote Republican

821
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: who probably agree with a lot of these policies. And

822
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 2: I reject language like the beast gits of deplorables that

823
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton use that assumes that there are swaths of

824
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: the electorate that are just not worth listening to or

825
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 2: paying attention to. I think that that's a very dangerous,

826
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: toxic way to think about our society. Do I wish

827
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 2: this current administration wasn't going around lighting fire to the

828
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: bits of welfare state that we still had left from

829
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: the Newdale era, to things like I just mentioned, like

830
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: green energy funding. Obviously I wish that that was the case, right,

831
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: But I again want to point out that regardless of

832
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 2: who's in the White House, we as a collective have

833
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: a lot more power than we give ourselves credit for,

834
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: and that really exciting things are happening even under this administration. So,

835
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: just to name a couple, I often point to some

836
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 2: news that got buried in the general election in November,

837
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: which was that you had what we would consider deep

838
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 2: red states like Missouri, Nebraska, and Alaska not just raising

839
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: the minimum wage along with a lot of other states,

840
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: but actually those three states passing paid sick leave on

841
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: their state ballots, citizen led initiatives, some with huge majorities. Nebraska,

842
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: I think it was seventy five percent of the vote.

843
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 2: These are what we would consider kind of progressive policies,

844
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: and yet they're happening in unlikely places because I think,

845
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: regardless of what you call them, they're actually quite popular.

846
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: And that was another lesson that I found from researching

847
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 2: this book is that a lot of the benefits of

848
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: these policies so undeniable once they've been implemented, that they

849
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: kind of defy politics in that no one really considers

850
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: paid parentally in Norway a right or left issue anymore.

851
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: It's just there might be some squabbling over how long

852
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 2: that paid parental leave is, but it's not as it

853
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: was initially more of a left wing idea or the

854
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: green transition in order why despite the fact that it

855
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 2: was led by the Pantampio, which is a left wing party,

856
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 2: most people don't see clean energy as a left wing

857
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 2: issue anymore. It's just the kind of a part of

858
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: their daily lives and they're feeling the benefits of it

859
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 2: in a number of ways. And the same goes for

860
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: most of the policies in this book. And so what

861
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: I would argue is that we can find reasons to

862
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: hope even within the States, even within this dark period

863
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: that we're in, and continue to fight for what we

864
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: know will be better. Another example of something that's been

865
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: happening that I've been excited about is Zohran mom Donnie's

866
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 2: Meyrill candidacy in New York. You know, I'm writing now

867
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: somewhat of a sequel to this current book, which is

868
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: going to be about city policies. And I never even

869
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: imagined in my wildest dreams that someone could run anywhere

870
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: but in New York City on municipally owned grocery stores.

871
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: I think that is such a radical idea, and I

872
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: would love to see how that's implemented. And I hope

873
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 2: to one day soon write a book called Another America

874
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 2: as Possible, in which I can delve into these amazing

875
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: solutions that are popping up across the country, regardless again

876
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 2: of who is in the White House.

877
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 4: I think that's a lovely place to end it. Thanks

878
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 4: so much, Natasha, Thank you so much.

879
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 5: Adam Pood