WEBVTT - #079 Jason Flom with Timothy Tyler 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.680 do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:21.800 everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.360 I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:24.880 do with this. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.240 How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.040 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.440 I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.120 And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.239 Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.480 come a little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:20.760 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.240 Jason Flamm That's me. And today we have a very 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.399 special and unique episode of the show. Today we have 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.000 Tim Tyler with us. Tim, Welcome to Wronful Conviction. Oh, 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.200 thank you and Tim. One of the reasons why I 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:39.840 say it's unique is because Tim was actually convicted of 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.440 a crime that he was guilty of, which was an 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:48.360 LSD crime, non violent and sentenced to double life in prison. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:55.280 No guns, no weapons, no violence, no no nothing. Actually, 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.200 and when I tell you, when you learn the story, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.320 your head is going to explode. So stay tuned, uned, 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:06.200 get comfortable, because this is this is really madness. So Tim, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.640 let's turn this to you. This case. I mean, you 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:11.800 were in prison for twenty six years, so this case 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.079 happened a long time. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.960 Ago, Yes, in nineteen ninety two, August. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.120 Third, nineteen ninety two, and you were on the road 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.079 with the Grateful Dead, right, Yeah. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.040 I was a deadhead going to you know, like I 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.840 loved the Grateful Dead and the band, the families. It 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.079 was like a big family that went around and it 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:37.040 was a sense of freedom, it felt like. And I 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:43.440 was following them around and I was arrested. I mailed 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.800 some melisty to Florida and I was arrested and I 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.639 ended up doing like like you know, his twenty six 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.720 years in twenty seven days, right, And I'm lucky because 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.480 President Obama ended up giving me a clemency. So without that, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.520 or without well support, I would still be in there, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.560 and I wouldn't just be like another number, or I 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.000 couldn't get a message out. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.440 And your case has so many horrible aspects to it, 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:20.320 and for me, it's very personal because listeners of the 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.519 show know that I'm the founding board member of the 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.280 Innocence Project, but I actually joined the Board of Families 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:30.160 Against Mandatory Minimums before I even knew about the Innocence Project. 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.080 So I've been with FAMS since almost since the beginning 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.640 of the organization. It's a wonderful organization, FAMM dot org. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.880 It was founded by Julie Stewart. She was sort of 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.040 my mentor as I got started on this. You know, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:52.640 lifetime in criminal justice reform, and you are a person 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.360 that we've spent a lot of time talking about. You 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.960 are a rallying cry, I think for people in this movement. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:05.280 You're someone who all of us respect so much, and 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:08.680 you're someone who we're really proud to have played a 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:14.800 part in helping to win your freedom. But the lens 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.839 that the government went to to convict you of this 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.880 crime and sends you to life in prison, which again life, 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.200 And I've heard your sister talk about this on videos. 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.560 Is a video free Tim Tyler on the Internet. People 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:33.120 want to watch. It's so horrible because, as we say it, 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.960 fam Let, the punishment fit the crime, right, but your 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.839 punishment didn't match anything to do with the crime. Yours 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.360 was a non violent crime. How did this happen? Right? 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.760 How could this have gone so wrong? And we know 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.920 also that they ended up implicating your father, which is 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.159 so disgusting that it actually just and I think people 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:54.600 need to know that part of the story. I'm sure 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.479 it's tough to talk about it, but anyway, can you 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.040 take us back to this. So you're on the road 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.840 with the grateful Dead, you get approached by it turned 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:02.320 out to be a government and foremant right. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.240 Actually, I had friends in Florida and Saint Pete, Florida 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.880 that I sold you know, I wanted to do LSD 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.120 and I sold some to my friends. Wanted to do it, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.320 so I sold it to my friends. Well one of 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.560 them was arrested for I believe a sheet or announce 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:23.839 a weed, I'm not sure which. And he told me 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.520 he was arrested. He's like, I was arrested last night, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.760 and he said he posted a bond and you know, 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.599 and I told him, well, your first defense in Florida 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:41.599 probably give you a probation. But he was recording me 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.240 at that time. And then he recorded me like twenty 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.600 six audio tapes after that, and like, I sold him 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.760 like a thousand hits of LSD, you know, And then 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.240 I sold them three more times another thousand, and all 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.800 of those were recorded where they could have arrested me. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.120 And then I said, well, I was actually in Florida 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:06.240 when I did these sales in person to them, and 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.159 they could have arrested me, but they didn't arrest me. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.360 I told them, I said, I'm leaving Saturday to go 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.840 on tour, you know, because there was no shows at 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.640 this particular time, and they could arrested me before I left, 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.479 but they didn't. They let me go. So I went 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.120 on to the shows, and actually I went to California 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:29.960 first and I bought like twelve five hundred hits of LSD. 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.520 Now it was like the price for that what I 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.359 paid was like four thousand dollars, So you're talking about 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:45.400 four thousand dollars of LSD total conspiracy. And I went 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.640 and I sent they wired me money, like eighteen hundred 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.640 dollars of their money, and I sent it all in 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.760 an envelope. But I had sent envelopes that never that 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.400 never arrived, and I took the loss myself before before this. 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:10.200 So this particular envelope, I sent nine thousand hits in 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.680 this envelope, and I put several different envelopes in it, 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.320 and one was for a friend of mine, one was 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.840 for somebody that somebody else that just was with a 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.480 blank person. One was for two thousand hits, which was 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.200 for my father. But my father was he didn't look 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:30.520 at it like he was doing anything. It was like 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.520 an envelope, you know. He never did all the steed, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.440 so he was just getting some for a friend of his. 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.960 So but he knew it was coming, you know. But 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.360 I sent it all in one big envelope with more 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.640 with envelopes inside it, and I sent it to this 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:54.160 guy's business. Well when it was delivered, the dea or 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:59.040 whoever the officers delivered it. And at this guy's business, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:01.640 and he knew me, says I was a kid, and 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.920 my father knew him since he was a kid, and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.600 he basically cooperated right on the spot. So he called 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.720 my father and said, hey, come down here. So my 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.800 father did, and he basically threw the envelope in my 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.920 father's car, and then he convinced my father to walk 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:24.040 around with him at their business, trying to get him 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:30.040 to incriminate. I think that's the word himself. So my 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.160 father said something, Yeah, I'm just getting that. It's just 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.240 an envelope. I'm bringing to a friend. That's all my 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.439 father really said, and that's all he was really doing. 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.280 So they arrested him as soon as he said that. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:41.640 They came and arrest him. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:41.760 Right. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.880 They were there hidden and they arrested my father and 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.280 I had a good friend of mine, they arrested him. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.320 There was only five hundred hits was for him. He 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.000 ended up doing five years himself. This guy and my 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.680 father ended up being sentenced to ten years for this charge. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.600 And he had about a year and have to go home. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.600 And he died in prison of a heart attack at 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.240 the age of fifty three and April seventeen, two thousand 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:12.559 and one. So when I sent all this stuff. Then 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.240 I had warrants for sending that. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.320 You know, now it's a federal crime because you sent 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:17.960 it through the mail. 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:19.840 Well, actually I sent it ups so it wasn't a 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.320 federal offense. But I was traveling the country and they 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.920 couldn't catch me, so I guess it was originally going 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.760 to be a state crime. And my father was arrested 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.640 and posted his bond as a state crime, but they 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.000 wouldn't release him because they decided to let the federal 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:43.600 take over my So eventually my father was able to 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.439 get a bond, and when I was arrested, I had 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.520 no bond, none, not a million, not ten million, whatever, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:56.199 zero bond. And I also knew that once I was 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.520 arrested that I was I was going to go away 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.040 for a long time. This time, see, I had two 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.360 prior sales of LSD, and when I went to court, 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:07.960 they offered me eighteen months in prison or three years 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.000 for robation. So I took the three years for probation. 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.160 I pled guilty, took three years probation, and then they 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.720 took me to the other one and they actually wanted 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.240 to give me three years in prison, and I told 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.960 him I was never even in their town, which they 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.440 can verify, and I'd like to have a speedy trial 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.680 and go to trial. And then several months later I 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.920 told him I would be willing to plead guilty if 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:38.280 you ran at concurrent probation with the one in Penelos County. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.680 Even though I was not the person that would drove 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.120 up there. They arrested. It was a friend of mine 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:44.840 that drove up there, and they arrested him and he 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:49.719 pled guilty in the whole nine yards. So after it 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.559 was like a week before we were going to go 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.800 to trial, they said, okay, you can plead guilty today. 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.240 Matter of fact, the judge was upset that I was 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.120 going to plead guilty. It was a female judge, and 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.640 she says, you could plead no contest and I will 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.640 give you adjudication of guilt withheld and give you three 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:11.120 years probation concurrent to your other three years probation. So 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.720 I pled no contest, okay. So then within six months 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.920 at that time, I ended up going to some shows again, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.520 and I was really only had a couple of guys, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.000 This guy UH named Jeff Rhodes that I sold to 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.120 on this charge that ended up setting me up, and 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.080 I had like one or two other guys that I 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:30.440 sold to. 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:31.000 That was it. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.680 I mean, it was just my friends. It wasn't like 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.760 this big, big thing. I wasn't this big person that 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.360 they seem like to make me out to be. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.160 But and I want to just jump in here for 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:48.079 a second, because you know, the the cynic out there 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.319 would be listening and go, Wow, this guy who's selling 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.920 LSD and it's against the law and this and that, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.800 blah blah blah. We have people, all kinds of people 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.000 who listen to the show, and they all have their 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:03.079 own unique viewpoints on these two issues. But for those people, 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.719 I would ask them to consider the fact that it 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.080 was a total four thousand dollars involved, right, and we 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:17.400 spent as a country to keep you locked up for 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.760 twenty six years. We spent probably close to a million 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:27.360 and a half taxpayer dollars, not to mention the lost 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:32.520 income that we might have gotten from being out and 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:37.000 getting a job and working, paying taxes, you know, not 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.199 to mention your dad's ten years in prison. I mean, 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.800 the implications of this across the board, it's you know, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.360 I guess when you edit all up, it's probably more 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.440 than a couple million bucks that we spent to lock 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.959 up a guy who probably needed to go to rehab, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.040 which was you. You know, I mean, I don't I 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.120 can't go back and judge you from back then, but 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.880 you know, it sounds like you had to you know, 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.880 you had a drug issue, and at some point you 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:09.640 probably would have had to get some help for that. 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.360 But I think that's my personal feeling is that that's 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.400 how we should approach drugs. You should approach them as 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.160 a medical problem, not a criminal justice problem. And they 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.160 do that in certain parts of the world, like Portugal, 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.839 and they have no issues whatsoever right that all drugs 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.600 are legal there. Nobody cares. There's no there's no increase 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:30.800 in crime, there's no increase in overdoses, there's no Every 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.000 social scienceist that has studied it has found that when 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.440 they decriminalized it, which was in two thousand, all those 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.840 things actually were affected positively. The crime rate went down, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.440 you know, drug use went down, overdoses went down, and 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.040 it went down not only for small countries. They compared 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.720 it to European countries and world countries like It's just 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.679 that all the evidence shows that this is the only 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.680 saying strategy is to treat drugs as a medical problem. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.240 If you get behind the wheel and your high as 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.599 a kite and you hurt somebody, then I believed and 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:06.760 you have to be punished in some way, right Or 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.120 if you do anything to hurt somebody, and if you 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.079 act in a way that's irresponsible to anyone other than yourself, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.839 then you know, we have to as a society look 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.680 at that. But for someone who is not harming anybody else, 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.600 not you know, selling it to little school children or 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.680 doing anything. You know, don't get me started, But anyway, 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:33.600 your experience is a is an extreme example of what's 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.440 wrong with our sentencing laws and with our approach to 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:43.480 drugs in general. And it is also an example of 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.840 something that's such a strange dichotomy because here you were 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.560 someone who is sort of a free spirit music lover. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.520 I'm a music lover. I never liked the Grateful Dead personally, 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.440 I was a whole morning to the hard rock stuff, 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:01.320 but whatever, and then you end up being put in 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:07.240 going from this sort of hippie dippy lifestyle, flower power whatever, 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.080 into literally some of the most harsh conditions that any 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.440 human being can or ever would endure. And I want 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.320 to talk about that, because it's important for people to 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:22.000 understand what that's like and the concept of putting non 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.800 violent offenders like yourself into maximum security prisons, which is 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.240 so wrong on so many levels. But before we get 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.840 to that, tim so there's another problem with your case 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.080 that we find over and over again in wrongful conviction cases, 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.119 which is the lack of adequate counsel. And your attorney 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.560 actually sold you down the river in a very meaningful way. 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.280 And can you talk about that because did you have 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:46.120 a public defender? 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.360 Yeah, he was a public defender, but he was also 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.800 a private attorney that the government hired. It's kind of 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.560 a strange situation because my father hired a very good 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:03.040 attorney in Florida name Frank Osada. And as soon as 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.480 we played guilty, you know I was gonna plead guilty. Anyway, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.360 I knew I was going to be in prison until 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.240 at least twenty twelve, which because I happened to believe 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.600 in some of the stuff that Jerry Garcia and Terrence 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.640 McKenna had spoke about that date, So I knew I 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.040 was going to be in prison until then at least. Anyways, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:31.440 but I listened to my father in some levels. In 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.160 one level and his attorney and his attorney basically said 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.400 we should plead guilty, and my father was looking at 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.440 it through another another way too. I wanted I didn't 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.320 want to go to trial because I actually believed LSD 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:50.240 to be a sacrament, you know, which is something that 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.080 I'm sure there's a lot of argument to go on 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.120 both ways on that. But they did take Ayahaska to 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.920 the Supreme Court in two thousand and six and recognize 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.040 it as a sacrament to certain people, which is very similar. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.879 So I just so that's now considered a religious ceremony. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.159 Right, Yeah, it's considered religious ceremony. Ayahuasca. It's spelled a 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.159 ya h u a sca, and it's went to the 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.200 Supreme Court and it's legal in this country as a sacrament. 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.800 They use the same argument that the Native Americans use 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.080 for payote, and they took it and the guy that 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.360 owned Segum's Bottle company, Jeff Brawmnfman, I think I think 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.560 his name is, he took it to the Supreme Court 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.800 and he won. So it's regulated. But they're doing a 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.359 good job. They said, they don't want the same thing 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.200 that happened with LSD. They don't want it to happen 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.440 with Ayahuascas, so it's very controlled. You have to really 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.280 go through a ceremony and prepare yourself for it, you know. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:51.840 But it's very similar, probably more potent in the experience 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:53.679 than LSD. And it's legal. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.639 Right. What a strange psychotomy, right, I mean? And what 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:58.919 a weird society we are when you look at the 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.879 fact that alcohol causes you know, tens of thousands of 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:04.680 deaths every year, if not one hundreds of thousands. I 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.160 don't even know the numbers, but it's a lot, and 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.800 it causes violence, and it causes people to misbehave in 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.720 all sorts of ways, all of which are negative for 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.520 society and their own families and their health and everything else. 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.399 And yet it's totally legal, right, And yet we have 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.800 other drugs like marijuana which are still which is you know, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.320 obviously we're making a lot of progress, and this is 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.240 something I've been working on for a long time and 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.600 advocating for, but you know, there's still people serving life 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.080 in prison in America for marijuana like that. What in 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.639 the fuck is going on with that? I mean? People, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.400 I say that to people and they're like, huh, No, 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.760 that doesn't make any sense. Yet we have more than 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:43.960 sixty percent of Americans now live in a community where 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.920 at least some form of medical or recreational marijuana is legal, 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:49.840 and yet we have people who are serving life in 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.800 prison and getting arrested every day. Tens of thousand of 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.600 people every week, every month get arrested for marijuana. It's 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.240 nuts and goes back to what you were talking about before. So, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.199 so you came from a place of believing that what 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.720 you were doing really wasn't wrong because of the fact 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.800 that you looked at this and granted, you know, okay, 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.400 you know, people will have I'm sure very different opinions 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.480 on that, but I can understand where you're coming from. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.359 But I want to fast forward a little bit to 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.480 the trial itself, because didn't your attorney give you literally 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.160 the worst advice that any attorney has ever given anybody, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:28.840 which was the please guilty. 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.639 Yeah, Actually he gave me worst advice than that. He 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.159 wanted me to cooperate, go against my father and they 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.600 would give me ten years, you know. So that was 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.119 his first conversation I ever had with him, and I'm like, 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:43.720 I called my father as soon as I was done 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.199 with that conversation. My father was had a bond and 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.080 he was home and I went and called him. I says, yeah, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.919 this is what this attorney just told me. You know, 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.679 they offered me ten years to go against you. And 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.280 I'm like, of course, I'm just telling you. Of course 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.720 I'm not going to do nothing like that. And yeah, 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.080 he gave me bad advice. And I was his last 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:10.639 case that he was taken on as for the government. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.040 He started private practice after my case. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.040 So he's pretty conflicted. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.680 I mean, it's a sad story that the laws of 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.720 this country are made to hand somebody a life sentence 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:28.560 for this small amount. Well maybe it's a large amount. 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.879 It just all depends on the way you look at it. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.320 Well, if you look at it in terms of monetary value, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:34.800 it's a small amount. If you look at it in 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.840 terms of the sheer numbers, it's a large amount. But 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.120 you know, it's an amount that most people will never 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.480 ever see or come close to in their lifetimes. But 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.159 at the same time, you know, again I'm of the 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.200 opinion that drugs should be regulated, they should be taxed 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.320 just like alcohol, and they shouldn't be sold to minors, 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.520 and we should have safe spaces for people who are 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.000 heroinauts to to, you know, to do what they need 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.399 to do and not be in the streets. And you know, 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.159 it's been shown that these type of safe injection facilities 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.639 reduce the spread of AIDS and hepatitis drastically, clean needle exchanges. 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:12.960 Things like that, I don't do drugs. I wish, you know, 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.080 I could wave a magic wand and help every drug 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.359 addict off of drugs that you know that they could. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.680 I believe we should have rehab facilities available to every 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.240 American who needs it and wants it like a hospital is, 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.720 and we would be a much better society if that 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:32.080 were the case. But instead we lock people like you 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.080 up for crazy amounts of time. But in your case, 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.560 your attorney told you that you could plead guilty. First 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:40.919 of all, the idea that he wanted you to testify 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.119 against your father is something I really have to just 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.280 process for a little while. I guess he had to 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.000 offer you that option if it was an option that 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.639 was available to you. You know, he probably had a 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:51.720 legal duty to tell you about it. He didn't have 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:53.720 to advise you to do it. But I'm sure he 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.600 did have some sort of a responsibility to tell you 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.320 that that was on the table. You did the only 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.840 right thing that you could do, of course, and that's 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.840 the only honorable thing. And then but then he still 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:07.760 told you that if you pleaded guilty, you would get 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:08.840 what not. 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.040 Life twenty one to twenty seven years. I thought, so, 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.320 which is a long time, you know, when you're just 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:20.760 getting arrested and you're coming in. But I also I 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:25.160 just had to adapt to my environment and think about, Okay, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:26.640 I'm going to be in prison for a long time, 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:31.240 so regardless, and I really thought about December twenty one, 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.040 twenty twelve. I had on the back of my mind. 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:37.200 I believed something was going to happen, and maybe I 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:41.520 would that date would change, you know, like Jerry mentioned, 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.080 or Terrence McKenna, an author, he mentioned, like a global 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.639 shift of consciousness on that date. So I figured, Okay, 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:50.560 I'm going to be in until then anyway. So it 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.760