1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to Judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 2 00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: I'm Michael Lewis. We're recording this on Tuesday, November seventh, 3 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: five days after Sam was found guilty on all seven counts. 4 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 1: I'm here with lawyer and former SDNY prosecutor Rebecca Mermelsty 5 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 1: now of Omelvini and Myers, and our intrepid reporter Lydia 6 00:00:42,676 --> 00:00:43,236 Speaker 1: Jean Cott. 7 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 2: Hello, Rebecca, Hey Michael, nice to be back with you. 8 00:00:46,716 --> 00:00:49,596 Speaker 1: Good to see you and l J. Glad we're at 9 00:00:49,596 --> 00:00:51,636 Speaker 1: the end of this. Why don't you take it away 10 00:00:51,876 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 1: since you were there for the last day and the verdict. 11 00:00:54,236 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 3: Michael, I wanted to start by asking you a question. 12 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 3: So you know you've spent a year and a half 13 00:01:00,716 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 3: writing about Sam Bankman Freed. We spent a month working 14 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 3: closely together covering this trial. What did you think when 15 00:01:06,796 --> 00:01:07,676 Speaker 3: the verdict came out? 16 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:12,116 Speaker 1: My mind reeled back to a conversation I had with 17 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:15,516 Speaker 1: Sam when he was under house arrest, when I asked 18 00:01:15,556 --> 00:01:18,436 Speaker 1: him what he thought the odds were that he could 19 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:21,276 Speaker 1: come out of this with anything but a conviction, and 20 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:23,796 Speaker 1: he said he thought it was about ten percent. And 21 00:01:23,836 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: I remember thinking I wouldn't put it there, I'd put 22 00:01:26,956 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 1: it had a three to five is what I thought, 23 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:31,196 Speaker 1: Roughly the odds that the New York Jets win the 24 00:01:31,236 --> 00:01:34,556 Speaker 1: Super Bowl after Aaron Rodgers is hurt kind of thing. 25 00:01:34,676 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 1: And so going in it was an odd event, right, 26 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:41,796 Speaker 1: because even Rebecca was saying weeks ago, like one hundred 27 00:01:41,836 --> 00:01:44,476 Speaker 1: out of one hundred prosecutors, she knows what'd say, this 28 00:01:44,516 --> 00:01:46,716 Speaker 1: thing is going to end with a conviction. There was 29 00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:50,516 Speaker 1: this should have been a total absence of suspense, like, 30 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 1: of course, this is what's going to happen. And yet 31 00:01:52,956 --> 00:01:56,956 Speaker 1: even so this still a little suspense. And this suspense 32 00:01:56,996 --> 00:01:59,156 Speaker 1: comes from you never know what people are going to do. 33 00:01:59,676 --> 00:02:02,156 Speaker 1: There are twelve people on this jury. You never know 34 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: what's going through their heads. They've heard a kind of 35 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:06,916 Speaker 1: weird slice of a story and you don't know how 36 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:11,636 Speaker 1: they react. So even now it seemed to me a 37 00:02:11,636 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 1: certain thing that he was going to be convicted. And 38 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:16,196 Speaker 1: even though if I'd been on the jury, I'd devoted 39 00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:19,876 Speaker 1: to convict, I felt a little shock when he was convicted. 40 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: It's an odd contradiction. What did you think? 41 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:25,316 Speaker 3: It felt like that in the courtroom too. We all 42 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:29,076 Speaker 3: were expecting it, But then when it happened, it felt 43 00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 3: a little shocking. And also I think what stood up 44 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:35,756 Speaker 3: to us is it felt so grave. And I'm curious, Rebecca, 45 00:02:35,916 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 3: as a prosecutor, you must have been in the courtroom 46 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 3: when convictions like this have happened. What's it feel like 47 00:02:42,556 --> 00:02:43,876 Speaker 3: for the prosecutor that moment. 48 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it does feel very grave. And I 49 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 2: think that even when you have every confidence in the outcome, 50 00:02:52,076 --> 00:02:57,356 Speaker 2: Michael's right, that there's a strange suspense as you watched 51 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:00,876 Speaker 2: the drama unfold. And I imagine I wasn't in the courtroom, 52 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 2: litty Gene, but I imagine it unfolded as it always does, 53 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:07,916 Speaker 2: which is, there's a report that the verdict is in, 54 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:11,236 Speaker 2: and the jury files in right, and they and they 55 00:03:11,756 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 2: pass the envelope to the judge and the judge looks 56 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 2: at it and everyone's watching the judge's face read it, 57 00:03:16,716 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 2: and the judge passes it back and it's kind of dramatic. 58 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:22,996 Speaker 2: And so I think that is how prosecutors feel too, 59 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 2: just like everyone else. 60 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:27,676 Speaker 3: And I'm curious, you know, moving to the sentencing, you 61 00:03:27,716 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 3: know it's not scheduled until the end of March, which 62 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:34,596 Speaker 3: feels very far away. What's happening right now, like what's 63 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 3: going to happen between now and March. 64 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it does feel far away, but I think 65 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 2: not at all unusual. The typical schedule is probably one 66 00:03:41,996 --> 00:03:45,396 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty plus days, and the biggest reason for 67 00:03:45,436 --> 00:03:48,476 Speaker 2: that is that the probation department has to prepare what's 68 00:03:48,516 --> 00:03:52,356 Speaker 2: called a pre sentence report. It's a big document. It's 69 00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 2: kind of have all kinds of information in it for 70 00:03:54,316 --> 00:03:57,276 Speaker 2: the judge to consider it sentencing, and it's going to 71 00:03:57,356 --> 00:04:00,516 Speaker 2: have information about this offense and what happened here, even though, 72 00:04:00,556 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 2: of course in this case the judge presided over the 73 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:05,356 Speaker 2: trial and heard it. But it's also going to have 74 00:04:05,436 --> 00:04:08,516 Speaker 2: all kinds of information about the defendant. The defendant will 75 00:04:08,516 --> 00:04:12,276 Speaker 2: be interviewed, Sam Bankmin Freed, family and friends may be interviewed. 76 00:04:12,676 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 2: It often has very personal information about the circumstances of 77 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 2: someone's life. I'm not sure that's going to be the 78 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 2: case here, but often people who find themselves in mess 79 00:04:23,236 --> 00:04:25,916 Speaker 2: with the criminal justice system have been victims of all 80 00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:29,716 Speaker 2: kinds of things in life, of circumstance, of family issues, 81 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 2: of medical issues, and so all that information gets compiled 82 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,636 Speaker 2: and put into this document, and that's just time consuming, 83 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:37,956 Speaker 2: and that's the biggest reason I think that there's so 84 00:04:38,036 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 2: much of a delay. And then, of course the parties 85 00:04:40,796 --> 00:04:44,276 Speaker 2: will submit written submissions to the judge, both the government 86 00:04:44,356 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 2: and Sam Bankmin Freed's lawyers. His may be accompanied by 87 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 2: letters of support from family and friends and people who 88 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:56,436 Speaker 2: have something positive to say about him that's not about 89 00:04:56,436 --> 00:04:59,236 Speaker 2: this case, right, that no one is all good or 90 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:02,516 Speaker 2: all bad, and he was a person and he, you know, 91 00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:05,076 Speaker 2: I'm sure has people who care about him and want 92 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 2: to talk about aspects of him as a person that's 93 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 2: not just this. 94 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 1: Rebecca, I'm curious if you would make a guess at 95 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 1: what his sentence is going to be. 96 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 2: This is a dangerous game, I think in terms of predicting, 97 00:05:17,476 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 2: because I just I don't think it's possible to know. 98 00:05:22,516 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 2: I would be very surprised to see something less than 99 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 2: ten years, and pretty surprised to see something north of thirty. 100 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:34,716 Speaker 1: I tell you why, I asked, because I've been polling 101 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 1: his lawyers, people close to the case, and the numbers 102 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:42,116 Speaker 1: are all over the map. How do you think about it? 103 00:05:42,116 --> 00:05:44,996 Speaker 2: Though, I think it's somewhat of a gut instinct, having 104 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:47,916 Speaker 2: just been at a lot of sentencing, so it's hard 105 00:05:47,956 --> 00:05:50,796 Speaker 2: to put in towards exactly how we get there. I 106 00:05:50,836 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 2: think here, and we've talked about this a little bit before, 107 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 2: the sentencing guidelines are basically useless because the recommended sentence, 108 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:01,196 Speaker 2: because the dollar amounts are so high, is going to 109 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 2: be life and that's just not like a meaningful, helpful 110 00:06:04,316 --> 00:06:07,476 Speaker 2: data point. There's also no mandatory minimum, so in some 111 00:06:07,516 --> 00:06:10,556 Speaker 2: cases you would have a floor, we don't have one. 112 00:06:10,716 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 2: I spent years in the securities fraud unit in the 113 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 2: Southern District of New York that did a lot of 114 00:06:16,076 --> 00:06:21,516 Speaker 2: white collar sentencings, and I think for the average white 115 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:25,476 Speaker 2: collar defendant, it's really unusual. It's really unusual to get 116 00:06:25,516 --> 00:06:29,356 Speaker 2: over fifteen, just anecdotally, like, not for any particular reason. 117 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:31,956 Speaker 2: It just you don't see it that much. And I 118 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 2: think part of the reason you don't see it that 119 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 2: much is that for the most part, and these are 120 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:41,596 Speaker 2: broad generalizations, to be clear, but I think judges are 121 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 2: much less worried about incapacitation in a white collar case 122 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:48,356 Speaker 2: than they are in a violence case. Right, So I'm 123 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 2: thinking about the purposes of sentencing, and there's statutory guidance 124 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:54,156 Speaker 2: on this. It has a number of purposes. Right, it's 125 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 2: supposed to provide just punishment. It's supposed to deter not 126 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 2: just the defendant who's being sentenced from committing future crimes, 127 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:04,516 Speaker 2: but offer something that's called general deterrence. The public should 128 00:07:04,556 --> 00:07:07,276 Speaker 2: know this is serious and they shouldn't do it. And 129 00:07:07,356 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 2: sometimes you have someone who's so violent and so dangerous 130 00:07:10,356 --> 00:07:12,596 Speaker 2: that the court feels that the only way to keep 131 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 2: the public safe from them is to get them off 132 00:07:14,356 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 2: the streets, you know, permanently or until they're very old. Right, 133 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:20,716 Speaker 2: That's mostly not true. In a white collar case. The 134 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:23,436 Speaker 2: chances that Sam Bankman freed, whatever amount of time he 135 00:07:23,476 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 2: serves in prison, will be in a position to commit 136 00:07:26,116 --> 00:07:30,476 Speaker 2: a enormous financial fraud again is almost zero. So that's 137 00:07:30,516 --> 00:07:33,236 Speaker 2: not a concern. And that's generally true, I think. And 138 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:38,036 Speaker 2: that's why you rarely see sentences super super super super 139 00:07:38,116 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 2: high in the white collar space because judges don't think 140 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 2: it's necessary. Why do I think it's got to be 141 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 2: more than ten because you see white collar defendants get ten, eleven, 142 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 2: twelve years big huge frauds, you know, and this is 143 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 2: a big, huge fraud, right, And so I just think 144 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 2: anything less than that would seem kind of not enough 145 00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:01,836 Speaker 2: to a judge. And then I think you think about 146 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:06,356 Speaker 2: general deterrence, and I predict that Judge Caplin's going to 147 00:08:06,356 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 2: talk about general deterrence at sentencing because this case had 148 00:08:10,636 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 2: a lot of publicity and crypto is still kind of 149 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:16,996 Speaker 2: an emerging area, and so a lot of judges will 150 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:19,356 Speaker 2: say they don't believe in the concept of general deterrence. 151 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:21,716 Speaker 2: They don't really believe that the sentence imposed on one 152 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:25,476 Speaker 2: person affects the behavior of the public. But here there's 153 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:27,436 Speaker 2: a strong argument that it really might. So I think 154 00:08:27,436 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 2: you're going to see that be a driving force. 155 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 1: Does he get punished for testifying on his own behalf? 156 00:08:33,356 --> 00:08:33,556 Speaker 3: Yes? 157 00:08:34,836 --> 00:08:35,516 Speaker 1: How much? 158 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 2: I think the answer to these things is definitely yes, 159 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 2: But how much is hard to say. There are systemic 160 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: frameworks that mean that the answer is yes, and then 161 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 2: there's the practical reality. So, as a systemic framework issue, 162 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 2: if he had pled guilty to everything, no negotiated benefit 163 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:55,236 Speaker 2: with the government, just pled what we would call open 164 00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 2: without any particular agreement, necessarily, he would have gotten a 165 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 2: three point reduction under the guidelines for what's called acceptance 166 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 2: of responsibility. And so I think we've talked about the 167 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 2: guidelines before. But it's essentially a big algorithm for sentences, 168 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:12,836 Speaker 2: and it spits out a recommended sentence. There's pluses and minuses, 169 00:09:12,916 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 2: and acceptance of responsibility is a three level reduction, So 170 00:09:16,396 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 2: that's going to correspond to some reduction in a recommended 171 00:09:19,556 --> 00:09:22,196 Speaker 2: sentence now here, because the guidelines are so so so high, 172 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 2: they're actually literally off the charts, it doesn't actually change 173 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:29,916 Speaker 2: the number it spits out. But holistically, the judge recognizes 174 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:31,836 Speaker 2: this person made a mistake and then they admitted it, 175 00:09:31,836 --> 00:09:34,716 Speaker 2: and they took responsibility, and they didn't force anyone to 176 00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:36,956 Speaker 2: prove it, and they didn't dispute it, and they saved 177 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 2: everyone in the time and energy, and that has value. 178 00:09:40,116 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 2: So there's that three points. People also, prosecutors and defense 179 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:47,796 Speaker 2: layers talk about a trial penalty, and there they're not 180 00:09:47,836 --> 00:09:53,076 Speaker 2: talking about a numerical algorithm. They're talking about holistically, not 181 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:57,236 Speaker 2: just that the judge punishes you for having not accepted responsibility, 182 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:00,876 Speaker 2: but that the level of detail and understanding the judge 183 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 2: has about what you did is very, very different. If 184 00:10:04,996 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 2: that judge sits for days or weeks listening to the evidence, 185 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 2: then if they read a submission from the government that 186 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 2: gives him the details, right, and so some judges kind 187 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 2: of really that changes the way they view a defendant. 188 00:10:17,596 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 2: It's hard to measure, but you have the sense that 189 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:22,716 Speaker 2: it's changing the sentence. And then I think testifying fits 190 00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 2: into both of those in the same way, which is 191 00:10:25,316 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 2: there is in those same guidelines a two point enhancement 192 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:33,036 Speaker 2: for obstructing justice, which includes testifying in a perjurious way. Lying. 193 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: Yeah. 194 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:36,276 Speaker 2: Again, here it doesn't actually move the math because the 195 00:10:36,276 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 2: math is going to be life. But also the judge 196 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 2: feels like, you know, what is wrong with you? Why 197 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:45,636 Speaker 2: did you do this? And my experience as a prosecutor 198 00:10:45,676 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 2: is that judges are much much much more offended when 199 00:10:49,196 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 2: defendants lie to them or in their courtroom then about 200 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:56,516 Speaker 2: the defendants lies that preceded it and brought them to 201 00:10:56,556 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 2: the court room. So you know, it comes with I 202 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:00,756 Speaker 2: think it comes with the risk of a heavy consequence. 203 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 2: Probably we won't know what would it have been and 204 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 2: what it is. We won't get that kind of clarity 205 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 2: from the ultimate sentence. 206 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: You read the transcripts of Sam's testimony under cross Yeah, 207 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:15,276 Speaker 1: what's the first lie that jumped out at you? And 208 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 1: what was the kind of biggest lie that jumped out you. 209 00:11:18,396 --> 00:11:20,636 Speaker 2: To me, the thing that jumped out the most about 210 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 2: his testimony was actually not what's what's a lie and 211 00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 2: what's true? It's how different he was on direct than 212 00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 2: he was on Cross. And it's interesting to me because 213 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 2: prosecutors always talk about in closing and defense lawyers do too, 214 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:39,596 Speaker 2: what a witness's demeanor was, how you should evaluate if 215 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:42,316 Speaker 2: they were telling the truth. And one thing that all 216 00:11:42,356 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 2: lawyers point to when arguing about whether or not a 217 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:48,276 Speaker 2: witness should or shouldn't be believed is that difference, right, 218 00:11:49,036 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 2: Were they different when asked questions by one side than 219 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:55,916 Speaker 2: the other. And so you expect and I'm sure this 220 00:11:55,996 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 2: did happen that Sam's lawyers talk to him about not 221 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 2: just what his demeanor would be like when they ask questions, 222 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 2: but what it should be like with the government and 223 00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:07,316 Speaker 2: hard to know sort of how we got where we are. 224 00:12:08,076 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 2: But he really did not take that advice to heart, 225 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:16,396 Speaker 2: and so he was giving long explanations and kind of 226 00:12:16,556 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 2: chatty and engaged on direct and I'm cross he was 227 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 2: very short. I don't remember, I don't remember. I'm not sure. 228 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 2: He must know his lawyers must know that these clips 229 00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:33,116 Speaker 2: exist of him saying things to the contrary, and it's 230 00:12:33,156 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 2: not a good look. 231 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know where I shot up in my seat 232 00:12:36,836 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. It was such a trivial moment. But 233 00:12:39,356 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 1: where I just went, oh my god, why are you 234 00:12:41,276 --> 00:12:43,796 Speaker 1: doing this? Was when they asked him if he had 235 00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: taken a private plane to the super Bowl, and he 236 00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 1: didn't remember. I was on that plane with him, and 237 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: it's very easy to remember. Why bother to even do that? 238 00:12:53,996 --> 00:12:56,756 Speaker 1: It was a bizarre It was a bizarre sort of performance, 239 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 1: and I didn't understand it. On the last question on 240 00:12:59,476 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: this because I don't want to lose this. How unusual 241 00:13:01,876 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: is it? You and I both thought you thought I 242 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 1: think more strongly than I did. But I still kind 243 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:08,316 Speaker 1: of agreed with you that he was going to change 244 00:13:08,356 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 1: his mind and not testify. I was persuaded it was 245 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: such a bad idea that he just wouldn't do it. 246 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,436 Speaker 1: It was a bad idea, and he did it. How 247 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 1: often do you see someone who is in his situation 248 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: take the stand. 249 00:13:21,036 --> 00:13:26,676 Speaker 2: There are consequences to testifying and being convicted, and so 250 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:29,436 Speaker 2: even if you expect that you're going to be convicted, 251 00:13:30,196 --> 00:13:32,596 Speaker 2: you're paying a heavy price for using your hail. Mary pass, 252 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:35,276 Speaker 2: it's probably not going to work, and so I don't 253 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 2: know that most people make the decision, which is why 254 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 2: I did not think that Sam was going to testify. 255 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:44,436 Speaker 2: For sure, people generally speaking don't testify that much, I think, 256 00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:47,356 Speaker 2: no matter how severe the evidence, you sometimes see it 257 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:50,836 Speaker 2: from someone who has some kind of message they want 258 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:54,876 Speaker 2: to share, Right, So it's not really about being acquitted, 259 00:13:55,156 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 2: it's about using the platform. You see it sometimes in 260 00:13:57,876 --> 00:14:00,676 Speaker 2: terrorism cases, right, someone who gets on the stand and 261 00:14:00,716 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 2: says death to America. It's not helping their cause, but 262 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:08,036 Speaker 2: that's really not their purpose. And sometimes you see it 263 00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 2: from people who can't accept the consequence and want to 264 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,516 Speaker 2: try to give their explanation. But it's uncommon relatively speaking. 265 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:19,596 Speaker 1: Right, what other things can they can cap and consider 266 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: when he's deciding on the sense? 267 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:26,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so almost anything is the answer. I mean, obviously 268 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:30,996 Speaker 2: there's some impermissible things, but there are statutory factors like 269 00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 2: the nature and circumstances of the offense, the need for 270 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 2: just punishment, the need to avoid unwanted sentencing disparities, which 271 00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 2: is lawyers speak for it should be fair relative to 272 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 2: other people who are similarly situated. Now here who's similarly situated, 273 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:51,556 Speaker 2: is of course a question what's the right benchmark to 274 00:14:51,596 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 2: compare it to. I think a lot of people have 275 00:14:54,676 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 2: made the point that the closest analogy is maybe made 276 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 2: Off in terms of you know, size and loss and 277 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. 278 00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 1: You know. 279 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:07,036 Speaker 2: On the other hand, you know, Sam is relatively speaking, 280 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 2: a younger person and made Off it's spent a essentially 281 00:15:09,476 --> 00:15:14,036 Speaker 2: a lifetime doing it. Here it's a narrower contained time. 282 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like the right analogy to me to 283 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 2: think about how much time Sam Bankman Freed should get. Right, 284 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:22,636 Speaker 2: if Madeoff had gotten twenty five years, that probably would 285 00:15:22,636 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 2: have been a life sentence too, didn't It was kind 286 00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:27,956 Speaker 2: of academic. But I think the judge can consider almost 287 00:15:27,996 --> 00:15:30,756 Speaker 2: anything right. The judge can consider a person's medical conditions. 288 00:15:31,276 --> 00:15:35,196 Speaker 2: The judge can consider childhood trauma. I'm not suggesting that 289 00:15:35,196 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 2: exists here. I have no idea, but difficult life circumstances, 290 00:15:40,076 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 2: family members. You know, you sometimes see arguments that a 291 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 2: defendant has a child or a parent who needs care 292 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 2: and the defendant sort of needs to be there. So 293 00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 2: almost anything. 294 00:15:51,196 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: The jury wasn't allowed to hear it. But do you 295 00:15:53,756 --> 00:15:56,996 Speaker 1: think it would matter to Kaplan to learn that the 296 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 1: customers were going to get their money back. 297 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I think we'll find out 298 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 2: right certainly, that will be something that happens at sentencing. 299 00:16:04,556 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 2: There's going to be this discussion on balance. I don't 300 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 2: think so, because I think what kaplain will say is 301 00:16:11,636 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 2: that was just dumb luck, right, It wasn't that. For example, 302 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 2: you did this then of your own volition, you paid 303 00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:21,756 Speaker 2: everybody back before you got caught, and so, yes, you 304 00:16:21,796 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 2: still committed the crime, but you've demonstrated that you're sorry 305 00:16:25,796 --> 00:16:27,396 Speaker 2: and you learned your lesson and you wanted to do 306 00:16:27,396 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 2: the right thing here. Just by sheer luck of some 307 00:16:30,876 --> 00:16:33,516 Speaker 2: other investment. It looks like there's enough money to pay 308 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:37,756 Speaker 2: everyone back. It doesn't really change what his culpability is. 309 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:40,836 Speaker 2: And so maybe on the balance, if you had some 310 00:16:42,396 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 2: little old ladies, you know, submitting letters at sentencing talking 311 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 2: about how they lost their life savings and now they 312 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 2: couldn't afford you know, milk and eggs, maybe that would 313 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 2: move the judge. But I don't think it's going to 314 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:55,716 Speaker 2: matter here. 315 00:16:56,356 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 3: So I have a question. There's this other trial I 316 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:01,796 Speaker 3: write that scheduled early in March, where there's a whole 317 00:17:01,796 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 3: set of other charges that are being brought against Sam Macmonfreed. 318 00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:06,916 Speaker 3: What are the chances you think that that trial is 319 00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:07,556 Speaker 3: going to happen. 320 00:17:08,356 --> 00:17:12,036 Speaker 2: I don't know. On balance, I don't think it should happen. 321 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 2: But it's a little complicated because some of the charges 322 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 2: that are in round two are essentially the same charges 323 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:22,676 Speaker 2: has actually existed in round one. The first trial involved 324 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 2: the substantive count, but it didn't include the conspiracy or 325 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 2: vice versa, and so it's all the same conduct. It's 326 00:17:28,716 --> 00:17:33,796 Speaker 2: all the same core wrongdoing. There are a few things 327 00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 2: like the FCPA charge, the foreign bribery the Foreign Corrupt 328 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 2: Practices Act, which prohibits bribery of foreign officials. So there 329 00:17:42,596 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 2: was an allegation that SBF paid a bribe to free 330 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:48,676 Speaker 2: up money right in a foreign country, and that was 331 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:50,876 Speaker 2: not made a part of this trial. In terms of 332 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:54,676 Speaker 2: the criminal conduct, you know, arguing against there being another 333 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:59,036 Speaker 2: trial he's facing. You know, if he got the maximum sentence, 334 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 2: it's functionally a life sentence probably right, he's thirty years old. 335 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 2: I don't think the ultimate sentence is going to be 336 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:11,076 Speaker 2: changed by this Judge Kaplan can consider the conduct at 337 00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:13,956 Speaker 2: the first sentencing, So just Kapain could say, I am 338 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 2: making a finding as a judge by a preponderance of 339 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 2: an evidence that you did do these other things, and 340 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:21,676 Speaker 2: I'm considering that when I sentence you. So in that sense, 341 00:18:21,716 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 2: there's really no reason to have another trial. I think 342 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:29,276 Speaker 2: the problem for the Ustorney's office is they brought those charges. 343 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 2: They said it was important to bring those charges. They 344 00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: didn't drop them. They said they weren't going to have 345 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 2: a second trial. It's a little hard for them to 346 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:43,676 Speaker 2: drop them now and just say never mind. And he's 347 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 2: not gonna But there's only two ways to resolve them. 348 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 2: Three there's a trial, he pleads guilty, or they say 349 00:18:49,356 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 2: forget it. And he's not gonna plead guilty because he 350 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 2: wants to appeal presumably this conviction. There's not much point 351 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 2: in appealing it if you're going to jail for something 352 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 2: else anyway. So I think they're a little bit stuck 353 00:19:00,876 --> 00:19:04,516 Speaker 2: in terms of how to move forward. I'm optimistic they'll 354 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 2: find a way to resolve it in some way and 355 00:19:07,996 --> 00:19:10,796 Speaker 2: not to waste the time and effort, But I it 356 00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 2: could go either way. 357 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 3: So after all of these proceedings are over, Sam makemanfreed 358 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 3: will go to prison. How is it determined what prison 359 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 3: he goes to. 360 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 2: So I am definitely not an expert on this, I 361 00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:24,516 Speaker 2: should say it's not something for the most part prosecutors 362 00:19:24,556 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 2: are involved in. There is a designation process that's run 363 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 2: by the Bureau of Prisons and one of the things 364 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 2: that feeds into that is that PSRI I was talking about. 365 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 2: So information from that will affect the designation. There's an assessment. 366 00:19:40,156 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 2: Some of that, you know, is going to be stuff 367 00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:43,916 Speaker 2: that's probably not applicable. Here are you in a gang, 368 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 2: do you have a violent criminal history? Have you had 369 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 2: infractions while waiting to be designated? You know, did you 370 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:52,916 Speaker 2: do they find a weapon in your cell? And that 371 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 2: kind of thing. Some has to do with what your 372 00:19:56,916 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 2: needs are. So for example, you know, if you had 373 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 2: a very serious medical issue and you were going to 374 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 2: need chemotherapy in prison, that would limit where you could go. 375 00:20:05,156 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 2: There's not that many facilities that provide that. If you 376 00:20:07,796 --> 00:20:10,516 Speaker 2: need drug treatment, right, that's going to factor in. So 377 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:13,956 Speaker 2: there are all these kind of components to it. And 378 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 2: then there's geography. So you'll see at sentencing almost always 379 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 2: that defense counsel will say at the end of the 380 00:20:20,356 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 2: judge you know, will you recommend to the Bureau of 381 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:28,316 Speaker 2: Prisons that he'd be designated close to this city or 382 00:20:28,356 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 2: to this particular facility, and the judge cannot. It's up 383 00:20:31,836 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 2: to the Bureau of Prisons at the end of the day, 384 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 2: but BOP considers that recommendation, and judges by and large 385 00:20:37,516 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 2: make the recommendation, and then the Buer of Prisons will decide. 386 00:20:41,476 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 2: And then because he's already in custody, he will then 387 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 2: be transferred from where he's being held now at MDC 388 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:50,516 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn to that more permanent facility. 389 00:20:51,996 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: Judging Sam will be right back. Welcome back to Judging Sam. 390 00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 1: The trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 391 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 3: Michael, I'm wondering if you've spoken to any family members 392 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:11,636 Speaker 3: of Sam Bankman freed, or maybe employees at FTX. You know, 393 00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:14,156 Speaker 3: it's been a couple of days since the verdict came out, 394 00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 3: and I'm curious what people close to him and around him, 395 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:18,036 Speaker 3: how they are feeling about it. 396 00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: So very oddly, apart from Caroline, Nishad and Gary, I 397 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 1: stayed in touch with all of these people, all the 398 00:21:28,556 --> 00:21:30,436 Speaker 1: people who might have been witnesses, some of the people 399 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:33,916 Speaker 1: who were witnesses, and I've heard from a bunch of them, 400 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 1: the FTX people. And it's interesting because in the list 401 00:21:37,836 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 1: of victims, these people are at the top because they 402 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:43,716 Speaker 1: lost not only all their money, but they know their 403 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 1: reputations went with it, and they thought they were part 404 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:48,196 Speaker 1: of one enterprise and it turned out to be something 405 00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 1: entirely different. Of all the people on the planet who 406 00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:54,236 Speaker 1: deserve who might be angry at Sam Vangrafey, you would 407 00:21:54,236 --> 00:21:57,876 Speaker 1: think they would be it, and that isn't there the 408 00:21:57,956 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 1: general feeling. The general feeling is kind of sadness. Natalie Pim, 409 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:05,556 Speaker 1: his scheduler and the head of public relations, who sat 410 00:22:05,596 --> 00:22:08,836 Speaker 1: through most of this trial, was weeping when it was over. 411 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:11,036 Speaker 1: She just thought. I think she had the feeling that 412 00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:16,436 Speaker 1: she didn't see the Sam she knew in the courtroom. 413 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: I think his parents have been living with both dread 414 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 1: and grief for the last year, and the dread is 415 00:22:24,316 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 1: now gone. It's happened, and they've just got the grief, 416 00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 1: and that's an easier emotion to cope with. I think 417 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:35,276 Speaker 1: that it's like, Okay, this has happened, and now we 418 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: move on. So you know, the image if you asked me, 419 00:22:42,236 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 1: like what I would remember from this trial, like top 420 00:22:46,276 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 1: five images apart from the quality of the cafeteria. Number 421 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:57,236 Speaker 1: one would be his mother in profile, with her jaw 422 00:22:57,316 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 1: trembling the whole time. She manifested the shock of what 423 00:23:01,716 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 1: she was going through. I mean, it was just all 424 00:23:03,516 --> 00:23:06,756 Speaker 1: there on her face. And I hope the world doesn't 425 00:23:06,756 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 1: go after them. They deserve to be kind of left. 426 00:23:09,556 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 3: And I'm wondering about you know, speaking of Sam Bankman 427 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:16,076 Speaker 3: Fritz close associates, Rebecca, what do you think is going 428 00:23:16,156 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 3: to happen to the cooperating witnesses? To Caroline Allison, Gary 429 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 3: long Nishad saying, I'm. 430 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 1: Very curious about this too. What do you think in. 431 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 2: Any other case, with any other judge, I would have said, 432 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:36,436 Speaker 2: with almost one hundred percent confidence probation, the default sdn 433 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:40,236 Speaker 2: Y sentence for a first time offending white collar defendant 434 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:43,716 Speaker 2: who's a cooperator is not to go to jail. And 435 00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 2: typically where you saw cooperators do jail time despite the 436 00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:49,316 Speaker 2: fact that they were cooperating, was in cases where there's really 437 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 2: serious violence. You know, someone who participates in a murder 438 00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 2: and is going to get a big reduction, but they're 439 00:23:56,196 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 2: not going to get off scott free. I think that 440 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,956 Speaker 2: probably is still true here. These guys are are also 441 00:24:04,316 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 2: like SBF, they're relatively young. There's no indication that they 442 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 2: have any other wrongdoing in their past. And I think 443 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 2: that is still probably right that the judge will say, look, 444 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 2: on the one hand, this was very serious and you 445 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 2: participated anew And on the other hand, these guys, these 446 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:25,236 Speaker 2: guys started cooperating really fast. They clearly owned up to 447 00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:27,796 Speaker 2: it immediately. They didn't wait to see which way the 448 00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 2: wind was blowing. They really came in. And I think 449 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 2: that's probably where it lands. And Kaplan's a hard, harsh sentencer, 450 00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 2: and is there a world where he says this was 451 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:40,236 Speaker 2: too serious and too big and you have to go 452 00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:43,076 Speaker 2: to jail. I think it could happen. I still think 453 00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 2: it's unlikely. And if that happened, I would strongly suspect 454 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:49,516 Speaker 2: sentences of a year and a day, which is a 455 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:53,516 Speaker 2: weird sentence. But in the federal system, they abolished parole 456 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:56,836 Speaker 2: in the eighties and after that they have a system 457 00:24:56,836 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 2: of fifteen percent for good time get credit for time off. 458 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,876 Speaker 2: You can only get fifteen percent time credit for sentences 459 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,476 Speaker 2: that are longer than a year. So a person who 460 00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:09,076 Speaker 2: gets a year serves a full year. A person who 461 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 2: that's a year and a day serves, you know, ten 462 00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:14,436 Speaker 2: and a half months, and so you almost never see 463 00:25:14,436 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 2: its ends of exactly here. 464 00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:19,956 Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, when the right after the verdict, 465 00:25:20,636 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: I found myself engaged in my own little undoing project. 466 00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:27,956 Speaker 1: When something bad happens, your imagination sort of like tries 467 00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:30,796 Speaker 1: to undo it, like how would this have been prevented? 468 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:33,356 Speaker 1: And let me do a question for you, LJA, listening 469 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 1: to the whole thing, I put that question to you, 470 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: how does this get? How is this? This whole thing 471 00:25:38,156 --> 00:25:41,396 Speaker 1: most likely prevented? What pops to mind. 472 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:47,196 Speaker 3: If that wonder who had to catch a plane had 473 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 3: been replaced by a different er instead of trying to 474 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 3: move everything along to finish the trial before that j're 475 00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 3: got on that plane. You can't help but wonder if 476 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 3: things would have gone differently? Right, It's hard to imagine, 477 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:04,636 Speaker 3: but that just seems one simple, like sliding doors moment 478 00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:06,836 Speaker 3: that happened. What do you think is the one moment 479 00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 3: that would have made everything different? 480 00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 1: I mean, there are an infinite number of ways it 481 00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:15,156 Speaker 1: might not have happened, but I bet Nishad and Caroline 482 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:18,156 Speaker 1: and maybe even Gary, Gary, unless sure of when it 483 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: all fell apart. Their minds reeled back to early twenty 484 00:26:21,796 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 1: eighteen when Alimeter Research was in free fall. Half the 485 00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:28,356 Speaker 1: firm thought Sam was a criminal or just criminally negligent 486 00:26:28,836 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 1: and left, and they, with some reluctant stayed and then 487 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 1: it all recovered and it got better, and they had 488 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: this firm in which Sam was now sort of unquestionable. 489 00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 1: He'd been questioned and proven right, and they were both 490 00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:45,676 Speaker 1: Nashad and Caroline at that moment were all kind of 491 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:47,876 Speaker 1: on the fence whether to stay with them or whether 492 00:26:47,956 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 1: to go. I think that's the moment where like if 493 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 1: they had just left, none of this would have happened. 494 00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:56,356 Speaker 1: Then it had just the whole place had just ended. 495 00:26:56,556 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 3: You don't think Sam Bnkman Freed would have found other people, No, if. 496 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 1: You had nobody now, I think that they had the 497 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:09,356 Speaker 1: power to just end his career as a as a 498 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 1: crypto trader there. But there are a million of ways 499 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 1: this money. But you replay his life. If you had 500 00:27:15,996 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 1: met Sam Bankmin Freed when he was twenty years old, 501 00:27:18,396 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: you would never imagine this is where he would end up. 502 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 1: Kind of thing. I know. I met a lot of 503 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:24,956 Speaker 1: people on Wall Street when they were twenty two years old, 504 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:27,156 Speaker 1: and some of them went on to commit financial fraud. 505 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 1: And it was pretty predictable, you know, Yeah, it doesn't 506 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 1: surprise me that guy did that. This is a strange case. 507 00:27:34,636 --> 00:27:37,596 Speaker 3: In the end, Caroline gary Nishad, they all turned on Sam, 508 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 3: and a lot of people who are close to Sam 509 00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 3: turned on him. But I guess what I'm curious about 510 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 3: is what drew them to him. Why did Caroline Ellison 511 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,236 Speaker 3: and others, you know, you were there for this. Why 512 00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 3: did they love Sam? 513 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:52,956 Speaker 1: Why was she in love? Why was she in love 514 00:27:52,996 --> 00:27:55,516 Speaker 1: with him? Why was it Sam that broke up with 515 00:27:55,636 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 1: her in May of last year? Why wasn't she fleeing 516 00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:05,076 Speaker 1: in the other direction? So I think this, why did 517 00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 1: everybody like him? You know, it's a multi part answer. 518 00:28:08,356 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: But in their little world, their rationalist, effective, altruist world, 519 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 1: he seemed mesmerizingly smart to me, like they just thought 520 00:28:17,236 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 1: they were intimidated by his intellect. They just thought he 521 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:23,916 Speaker 1: was the smartest person in the room. He made being 522 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 1: a nerd a little feel strong. He gave him all 523 00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 1: kind of courage. And I think it was also true 524 00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:33,036 Speaker 1: that with a lot of the people, and several people 525 00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:35,996 Speaker 1: in the book say this who were drawn to him. 526 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 1: He had this ability to make people feel like they 527 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 1: had a purpose and when it all fell apart, that 528 00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: was one of the things. Many of these people's voice 529 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 1: was what am I going to do now? Without a purpose? 530 00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:49,596 Speaker 1: He was able to create that feeling, So that was 531 00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:52,836 Speaker 1: part of it. For the wider society that sort of 532 00:28:52,876 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 1: embraced him. Oddly, I think a lot of his appeal 533 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 1: was his seeming artlessness and openness. That he seemed like 534 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 1: he had nothing to hide. He was just all out there. 535 00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:06,636 Speaker 1: And in fact, there was a very funny way that 536 00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 1: I didn't write and this didn't make its way into 537 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:14,316 Speaker 1: my store. But April of last year, at Sam's Crypto 538 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 1: Bahama's conference, I bumped into someone who would help me 539 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:20,716 Speaker 1: with The Big Short. He could have been a character 540 00:29:20,756 --> 00:29:22,236 Speaker 1: in The Big Short. He was one of the people 541 00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:26,116 Speaker 1: who made that trade and was, you know, really smart, 542 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:30,796 Speaker 1: unbelievably cynical Wall Street person who saw through the veneer 543 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:32,716 Speaker 1: of Wall Street to see that these firms were doing 544 00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:36,996 Speaker 1: all this bad stuff. And he just adored Sam. And 545 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 1: I remember asking, you know why you like this guy 546 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 1: so much? And he said, this is a loose quote. 547 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 1: He said, how often do you meet someone with twenty 548 00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 1: billion dollars who's not a douchebag, who has nothing to hide, 549 00:29:49,396 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 1: and that's how he felt the people. He felt like 550 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 1: he had nothing to hide, and so it's incredible that 551 00:29:55,756 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 1: his defining trade is what he hid. So anyway, it 552 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:04,276 Speaker 1: was you won't believe this, LJ, because you see Sam 553 00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:06,756 Speaker 1: and you see the know it all at the lunch 554 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 1: table who won't shut up. It is that ass to him. 555 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:13,356 Speaker 1: But I promise you that if you had met Sam 556 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:16,916 Speaker 1: Bankminfreed a year and a half ago, you'd have thought 557 00:30:16,956 --> 00:30:19,596 Speaker 1: it was odd, but you would you would have liked him, 558 00:30:19,876 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 1: And right now you'd be punishing yourself for liking judging. 559 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:33,796 Speaker 1: Sam will be right back. We're back with one last thing, LJ. 560 00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 1: What do you got for me? 561 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:38,356 Speaker 3: So, Michael, throughout this trial you've talked about how you've 562 00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 3: also been learning about how the legal system works. 563 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 2: You look so skeptical. 564 00:30:43,716 --> 00:30:45,636 Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's it's true. I mean Rebecca is 565 00:30:45,676 --> 00:30:47,796 Speaker 1: the one who should look skeptical. I mean, yes, it's 566 00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:50,516 Speaker 1: the first time I've really paid that close attention to 567 00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:51,356 Speaker 1: a criminal trial. 568 00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:53,516 Speaker 3: And what do you feel like you learned? 569 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: It's frightening, it's frightening your toast. If the federal government 570 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:02,956 Speaker 1: charges you with a crime, you're just done. And in 571 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:06,596 Speaker 1: this case, I don't think the outcome was unjust, but 572 00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: it feels like the system has a capacity for credible injustice. 573 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:14,116 Speaker 1: It made me think, if there's this whole rawlsy and 574 00:31:14,196 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 1: thing about the veil of interest, that if you I 575 00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:22,596 Speaker 1: allow you, I allow you to design the system, but 576 00:31:22,676 --> 00:31:25,036 Speaker 1: I don't allow you to choose what your role in 577 00:31:25,076 --> 00:31:28,156 Speaker 1: the system will be. And if I said to you, 578 00:31:28,156 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 1: you get to design the system of justice, but you 579 00:31:32,396 --> 00:31:34,876 Speaker 1: might end up a defendant. You might not end up 580 00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:37,436 Speaker 1: a prosecutor or a defense lawyer, or a judge or 581 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:38,796 Speaker 1: a member of the jury. You're going to be in 582 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: there somewhere. You might be a defendant. I don't think 583 00:31:41,956 --> 00:31:44,956 Speaker 1: anybody would design the system the design a system that 584 00:31:45,076 --> 00:31:48,036 Speaker 1: was that was fairer and showed a little more mercy 585 00:31:48,076 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 1: towards the defendant. 586 00:31:49,076 --> 00:31:52,916 Speaker 2: I think, Rebecca, it's funny. I was thinking of something 587 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,956 Speaker 2: much more practical and less philosophical. Which is my last 588 00:31:57,036 --> 00:31:59,476 Speaker 2: day of criminal law, my first year of law school. 589 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 2: At the professor said, at the end of the day, look, 590 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:05,996 Speaker 2: most of you will never need the substance of this 591 00:32:06,196 --> 00:32:08,716 Speaker 2: in your professional lives. Most of you will not be 592 00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 2: lawyers involved in the criminal justice system. Indeed, more of 593 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:16,556 Speaker 2: you are likely to be arrested than to need this professionally. 594 00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:19,236 Speaker 2: And if you remember one thing from this class, it's 595 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:25,556 Speaker 2: don't talk to the police. And he was I think 596 00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 2: mostly being tongue in cheek about the chances that a 597 00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:29,396 Speaker 2: bunch of IVY leaders were going to get arrested. But 598 00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:34,796 Speaker 2: I do think that that is important life advice. Actually, 599 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:36,676 Speaker 2: if you get at the knock at your door and 600 00:32:36,716 --> 00:32:40,196 Speaker 2: it's the FBI or a police officer offers you the 601 00:32:40,236 --> 00:32:43,636 Speaker 2: opportunity to explain something, you should call a lawyer. It 602 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:46,796 Speaker 2: is not a good idea to try to navigate the 603 00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:51,796 Speaker 2: system without professional advice, and you should make calling a 604 00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 2: lawyer the first thing you do. So it's not about roles, 605 00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:58,996 Speaker 2: but a pitch for a practical approach to finding yourself 606 00:32:59,036 --> 00:32:59,636 Speaker 2: the defendant. 607 00:33:00,876 --> 00:33:03,316 Speaker 1: That was, as usual, Rebecca, much more useful than what 608 00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 1: I had to say. 609 00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 3: Michael Lewis and Rebecca Mermelstein, thank you so much. This 610 00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:08,676 Speaker 3: was really great. 611 00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 1: By bye bye. This episode of Judging Sam was hosted 612 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:19,956 Speaker 1: by Lydia jen Kott. Judging Sam is a production of 613 00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and hosted by me Michael Lewis, with special 614 00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:28,476 Speaker 1: assists this season from Jacob Weisberg and Jacob Goldstein. Our 615 00:33:28,476 --> 00:33:33,436 Speaker 1: associate producer is Nisha Venken. Our executive producer is Catherine Gerdeaux. 616 00:33:34,036 --> 00:33:38,476 Speaker 1: Our reporter is Lydia jen Kott. Our editor is Sophie Crane. 617 00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:41,716 Speaker 1: Our music is by stell Wagon Simpinet at Pushkin Thanks 618 00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 1: also to Greta Cone, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Jason Gambrel, 619 00:33:47,076 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 1: Nicole opten Bosch, Bryan stre Brenneck, Christina Sullivan, and Malcolm Gladwell. 620 00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:58,876 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 621 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If 622 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 1: you'd like to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, 623 00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:09,116 Speaker 1: don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscript 624 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot Fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple 625 00:34:13,196 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 1: show page.