1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast am on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 2: Is it possible MANGIONI developed a kind of disassociate of 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: identity where oneself rationalized the violence while another remained socially functional. 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 3: I think this is a part of his identity transformation. 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 3: He disappeared for about six months. He was estranged from 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 3: his parents from Maryland. He moved to a commune in Hawaii, 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: and he began this kind of more radicalized experience when 8 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: he began to identify with Kazynsky. Then he read Kazinsky's 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 3: Manifesto Industrial State and its Future, commented on it, and 10 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: I read the quote before that this is war and 11 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: revolution and it's really necessary. 12 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 4: Now. 13 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: If these patterns, then can go towards some sort of 14 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 3: a mitigation of his rational mental state at the time 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: of the crime. Particularly, let's look at the New York 16 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 3: case or look at the Federal case, where there is 17 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 3: a possibility to enter a plea of diminished capacity, which 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: means that you're not all sane or all insane, that 19 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: your mental status is parceled out kind of on a 20 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 3: continuum from knowing exactly what you're doing to not knowing 21 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 3: what you're doing. Interestingly enough, this defense was offered in 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 3: the federal case with Kazinski, and Kazinsky would obviously qualify 23 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: as a person that would meet the standards of diminished 24 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: capacity based on his delusional thinking and its preoccupation with 25 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 3: destroying whatever modern society might be. Now, if Mangio, if 26 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: the if the doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists who analyze prospectively Mangione, 27 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,559 Speaker 3: if if they can enter this plea, if diminished capacity, 28 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: that he wasn't one hundred percent rational at the time 29 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: that he committed this particular crime, then it could be reduced. 30 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 3: The first degree murder charge could be reduced to second 31 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 3: degree or even first degree manslaughter, which for MANGIONI maybe 32 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,839 Speaker 3: this is what the defense is hoping, that they can 33 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 3: have the charge reduced so he could plea out, plea 34 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 3: bargain out, and maybe get a fifteen years to life. 35 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: So with the possibility of parole. A similar situation, by 36 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: the way, with the the case in Southern California with 37 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: the menus as brothers, their faith with a re sentence 38 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: and hearing next week to see whether or not they 39 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: can be released on parole. So Mangione's major situation is 40 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: going to be to fight the state charges first degree 41 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: murder that require what's called the guilty mind that you 42 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,839 Speaker 3: have to show that there's one hundred rationality, and if 43 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: that rationality is is altered, then diminished capacity could be 44 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: a good defense for him. 45 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: In a case such as this, And again we're talking 46 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 2: about allegations only here, but in a case such as 47 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: this or similar cases, do you, as a forensic psychologist 48 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: look for a psychological tipping point and in Mangioni's case, 49 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: something that may have happened prior to December fourth, twenty 50 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: twenty four. 51 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: I think it's really it's a it's a it's a 52 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: influence of several factors that impinged on an individual at 53 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: a certain time. If you look at sir hand, excuse me, 54 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: sir hand. For example, there were a number of factors 55 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 3: that led him to assassinate Robert Kennedy. Okay, excuse me 56 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: a second, all right, I mean some of those factors 57 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: were political where he thought Robert Kennedy was going to 58 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: destroy his his people, the Palestinians, So he turned against 59 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: Kennedy and wanted to wanted to eliminate him as a 60 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: potential enemy with excuse me, with MANCHIONI, he saw corporate 61 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: greed as being the enemy, and he saw the CEO 62 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: of United Healthcare as being a symbolic part of that 63 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 3: corporate greed. 64 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: Well, that leads me to a question, doctor Brady, in 65 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: cases like this, and in this case this supposed political 66 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: or social motivation, and whether they are in fact sincere 67 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: or merely rationalizations for personal vengeance or nihilism. 68 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: Well, I think that the perpetrator of these crimes, such 69 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: as as sir Han and Kazinski and MANGEONI that their 70 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: belief system gets so distorted that they actually believe what 71 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 3: they're doing can be justified and they're doing good rather 72 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: than doing bad. So once you reach that point where 73 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 3: you're rational behavior is so compromised that you're convinced that 74 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: your deeds are really instrumental in helping society rather than 75 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: a negative event. 76 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: All right, My next question, doctor Brady, I guess is 77 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 2: somewhat conspiratorial. But when we see high profile historical assassinations, 78 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: this question often comes up, and that is, could Mangione's 79 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: alleged behavior be the result of induced delusional disorder? In 80 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: other words, he had help, he had a handler, he 81 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 2: had he was programmed. 82 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, the induced delusionable disorder is a pretty interesting concept, 83 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: and it really applies in some cases where there is 84 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 3: a master person or the original original of the delusion 85 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 3: that transfers that negative behavior to the the the subordinate person. 86 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: What I found in the in the Oswald case is 87 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: that his mother death definitely was affected by this induced 88 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 3: delusion of disorder, and she imparted a lot of this 89 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: negative pathology to a young Lee Harvey Oswald, and and 90 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,559 Speaker 3: it contributed to his his own pathology later. 91 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: All right, let's grab a couple of quick calls here 92 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: west of the Rockies. Dave is in Spokane, Washington. Dave, 93 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: welcome to coast. You're on the line with doctor John Brady. 94 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 5: Go ahead. It's hard to either over analyze or under 95 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 5: analys this whole issue when these people are in the 96 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 5: general population. If you look at Jeffrey Dalmer, they released 97 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 5: him into the population and then one of the population 98 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 5: killed them. You leave these people alive in prison. They 99 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 5: have no sense of purpose, nothing to gain in this life. 100 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: And for me, if I were obsessed and possessed like 101 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 5: they are, I would rather be get a mercy killing 102 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 5: administered to myself. Isn't that part of an escape. 103 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that's the final, 104 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: final escape. For the preceding that escape has to be 105 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: some sense of awareness that what you're doing is really wrong, 106 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 3: that you're not a self designated savior, that you're really 107 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: doing an evil act that has to be interpreted by 108 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: society as being evil. 109 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: All right, Dave, thank you for the call. Let's grab 110 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: another one wrong in Michigan on the wild card line. Ron, 111 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: good morning, Welcome to coast. 112 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 4: Good morning, folks. And I believe that the three trials 113 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 4: that are planned in the death sentence that is already 114 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: ordained by Trump is going to raise up Luigi to sainthood, 115 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 4: that martyrdom, and it's going to create a group of 116 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 4: followers who are being denied their medical benefits and veterans 117 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 4: are being denied their benefits and being told to just 118 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 4: crawl and die or commit suicide. I think that'll become 119 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 4: the Luigi's and it'll be sweeping this country about the world. 120 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: Interesting point. Thank you for that, Ron, Doctor Brady, are 121 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 2: you concerned. I mean that he could be well even 122 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: if he receives a life sentence or if he's convicted period, 123 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: he may be turned into likely will be turned into 124 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: some kind of a martyr for a certain radicalized group. 125 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: Your thoughts, Well, I think he's already there. I mean, 126 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 3: he's already, you know, achieved that status as a social 127 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: justice warrior who people have identified with as being a 128 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: righteous fighter for freedom, as opposed to what the legal 129 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 3: system thinks of him as a premeditated stalking murderer who 130 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: killed this person for his own personal social reasons. He's 131 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: not Jeffrey Dahmer. He's not a crazed sex killer. He's 132 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: an ideological, confused, delusional person who you mentioned kind of 133 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 3: drifted into this altered state. It may not be an altered, 134 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: totally altered state of awareness, but it approximates that where 135 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: he lived in a reality that was pervaded by this 136 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 3: social justice retribution, with him being the person who should 137 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: administer justice in society, which is is kind of an 138 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: delusional sense. And he says in his manifesto that he 139 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 3: is the only one so far that has had the 140 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 3: courage to step forward and to do it. And I 141 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: guess it is the assassination. 142 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: How common is it, speaking of manifestos, how common is 143 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: it for killers? And again these are allegations, but for 144 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 2: killers to leave behind manifesto's, letters, recordings, and what does 145 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: this say about their internal need to be heard? 146 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: Oh, I think I think it's very common, whether or 147 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: not it's in information or materials taken from a crime 148 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: scene that are later inculpator that contributed to their being caught, 149 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: or maybe they leave things because there's kind of an 150 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: unconscious awareness that what they're doing is actually wrong and 151 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 3: they want to be caught, so there's a sense of 152 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: guilt as trying to break through this unconscious awareness. It's 153 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 3: pretty interesting because with Sir Hand, obviously he left this 154 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: huge diary RFK Must Die, And in that diary were 155 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: many statements that were negative concerning his planning to kill 156 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: Robert Kennedy. That they were very explicit, that RFK must die. 157 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: I'll kill him. If he was in front of me, 158 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 3: I would blast him. He made those kinds of statements, which, 159 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: in my interpretation, was that he was in an altered 160 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: state and he was trying to convey his sense of 161 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 3: guilt to the other part of his personality that was 162 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 3: kind of naive to this evil second person. 163 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: Is there a danger in too quickly labeling such individuals 164 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: as mentally ill when their crimes may be more ideologically 165 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: or culturally driven. 166 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: It really depends on what the you know, that's that's 167 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: a psychiatric legal question. It really depends on what defenses 168 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: are available to the individual in a particular venue. So 169 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: with with Mangione, it's it's it's pretty obvious to most 170 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 3: of his that a that a a full blown psychiatric 171 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: defense saying that he is experiencing or suffering from a 172 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: mental disorder. Uh that is is is completely psychotic. It's 173 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: probably not going to work. But the diminished capacity defense 174 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: may be an applicable defense that his turning the years, 175 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: his defense team can put forward as a defense. 176 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 177 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,239 Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam 178 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: dot com for more