1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Pushkin. John Legends one of those people who can brighten 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: a day, so we're lucky during these times to be 3 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: getting some new music. Rick wanted to talk to an 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: uplifting artist for the podcast and John was one of 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: the first people that came to mind, and the timing 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: was perfect because John just released Actions, a song off 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: his new album that's due later this year. Rick and 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: John are both sheltered in place at the moment while 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: we arrived this virus out. You probably saw John's living 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: room concert with his wife, Chrissy Tigue in this past week, 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: so we connected with John via zoom. So the first 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: time we've really done a remote recording like this for 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: the podcast, but it was a nice trial run since 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: we'll likely be doing a lot more of this in 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: the future, and since it's our first go at it. 16 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: You'll probably hear some kids crying in the background, and 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: this episode's definitely a lot shorter than usual, But when 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: John's album comes out later this year, we'll definitely try 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: to get him back on In the meantime, joyed this 20 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: conversation between Rick and John Legend. This is broken record 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond, here's 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin and John Legend. What's happening, Rick, How are 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: you feeling. I'm feeling great. How are you good? It's 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: nice to see you. My pleasure. Are you in Malibu? 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: Were probably really close to each other. I'm in Hawaii? Actually, 26 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, so we're very far from each other. Yes, 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: it's a interesting We've been doing these podcasts now for 28 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: I don't know about a year and a half, and 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: I've never done one this way. They've always been in person. Okay, well, 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: this is going to be a new new experience for 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: both of us into the wave of the present. Absolutely 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: not the future. So do you remember your first memories 33 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: of music as a kid. Yeah, my first memory of 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: music as a kid. We're in church. I grew up 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: in the Pentecostal church in Springfield, Ohio. My grandfather was 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: the pastor of our church. My grandmother was the church organist, 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: and my mother directed the choir, and my dad sang 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: in the choir and played the drums, and so I 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: would go to a choir rehearsal with my parents and 40 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: hang out with them and with my grandmother, and I 41 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: would be at church every Sunday and sometimes during the week, 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: and we were surrounded by gospel music all the time. 43 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: My parents played it on their record player at home 44 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: and eventually their cassette player, and you know, we were 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: immersed in it, and that was the primary source of 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: music for us. Would you say the church came first 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: and the music followed, or is it primarily a musical church. 48 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: I would say they were so integrated that you couldn't 49 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: separate one from the other when you went to our churches, 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: any of the Pentecostal churches that I attended, or that 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: I or the one I grew up in. Music was 52 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: so integral to the service that you couldn't imagine the 53 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: service without music. When's the first time you remember playing 54 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: in front of people. I think probably the first time 55 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: I sang in front of anyone who was probably like 56 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: a Christmas program at school. They would try out the 57 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: little kids to say their little pieces and sing a 58 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: little song. And I was probably five, maybe four or five, 59 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: probably not too far from the age my daughter is now. 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: She's almost four, but I was probably a little bit 61 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: older than that, but not much older. And you know, 62 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're doing at that time, but 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: it's part of how you celebrate Christmas as part of 64 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: how you interact with each other at church. And then 65 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: I remember one of the first real productions I was 66 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: in was a Christmas play at my elementary school. I um, 67 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: for part of my elementary school years attended a Christian 68 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: school called Springfield Christian School, and some of the time 69 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: I was homeschooled as well, but for the time that 70 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: I was there, I was a participant in some of 71 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: the Christmas musicals and other, you know, little productions at 72 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: the elementary school would do. And then was there a 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: was there a moment in time where you decided to 74 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: make it a profession or did it happen organically? Well, 75 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: it started happening early, so um, you know, I would 76 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: watch Star Search, and I would watch the Grammys, and 77 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: I would watch Solid Goal, Old and Soul Trained, and 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: I would see artists who were seemingly enjoying themselves, doing 79 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: what they love to do and performing in front of 80 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: large audiences. And I wanted to be one of those artists. 81 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: I loved singing at church, but I wanted to be 82 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: one of the artists I saw on television. I would 83 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: see Stevie Wandering, Michael Jackson, Luther, you know, certain artists 84 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: caught my attention. Aretha Franklin caught my attention and made 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: me want to be in the stages, on the stages 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: where they were performing, and so I dreamt of being here. 87 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: Very early in my life. I didn't know what that meant. 88 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: You know, to me, that meant winning Star search. Funny 89 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: that I'm on the Voice now, but but you know, 90 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: to me at the time, it meant winning a television 91 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: talent show and getting discovered that way. So after church, 92 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: the next your next connection to music was more through television. 93 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: You would say, yeah, television, the radio, um, But you 94 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: know when I when I would see those artists on television, 95 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: it would kind of put kind of meat and bones 96 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: on this idea of what it meant to be a 97 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: professional artist. It would, you know, it gave me a 98 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: visual representation of what that meant, and not just singing 99 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: it for free at church or or singing it locally 100 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: at school, but doing it for a living and doing 101 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: it on big stages. Television was what kind of introduced 102 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: me to what that meant. Do you do you remember 103 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: when or if when you notice that the the difference 104 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: between the music that was particular to the church and 105 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: non church music. Oh yeah. My parents made it clear 106 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: that secular music actually wasn't really welcomed in our home. 107 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: So we didn't have like almost any secular recordings in 108 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: our home at the time, even though we'd see some 109 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: things on television we when we were young. My parents 110 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: were very strict about those kinds of things, so we 111 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: didn't have any secular music recordings at home. When I 112 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: got a little older, things got a little more relaxed 113 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: and my parents went through we're going through a divorce, 114 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: and so they got a little more relaxed too, and 115 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: so a lot of the kind of strict, really fundamentalist 116 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: traditions that they were cleaving too for a long time, 117 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: they kind of relaxed them a bit by the time 118 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: we were ten, eleven, twelve years old, and and then 119 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: he started to realize, Oh, my dad loved Motown, he 120 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: loved the Ojas, he loved my mom loved Luther Vandrows. 121 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: These are artists that they loved, but they didn't really 122 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: like let on that they loved it because it was 123 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: in our church tradition kind of frowned upon to listen 124 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: to secular music. It's piano, your first instrument, my first 125 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: and only I faked playing guitar on La La land. 126 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: I learned enough to fake it, and uh, that was 127 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: other than that. Pianos all I have. And when did 128 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: your relationship with piano begin? Which started very young. We 129 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: had a piano in my house, and like I said, 130 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: my grandmother was a church organist, and so she would 131 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: show me things on both the organ and piano, mostly piano. 132 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: She had a piano and organ at her house too, 133 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: and you know, I was there was not many homes 134 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: that I would go to that didn't have a piano 135 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: in my life. So my neighbor next door had a piano. 136 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: My grandmother, my grandmother's on both sides had pianos, and 137 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: we had a piano. It was a beat up, upright piano. 138 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: Do you remember your first experiments with songwriting? Well, I 139 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: started taking piano lessons formally at a music store when 140 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: I was about four or five years old, and I 141 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: learned like classical and hymns and things like that, and 142 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: then I think I probably started writing around eight or 143 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: nine years old. I would write things that I could 144 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: sing at church. I would By the time I was 145 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: ten or eleven, I was, you know, into girls more. 146 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: By that point I started writing songs that I could 147 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: sing to girls that I liked. And so between singing 148 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: to Jesus and singing to girls that those are my 149 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: prompts for writing. It was always from a place of passion. Exactly. 150 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: Do you remember the first music that really spoke to you, um, 151 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: outside of church, music that we you feel like um 152 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: was foundational for you, that you would say was your 153 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: music I loved. Well, there was music that my parents 154 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: playing that I loved, um um so um. At a 155 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: certain point, they once they kind of relaxed, uh, the 156 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: restrictions on sycling music. You know, my mom would play. 157 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: She would play like kind of modern R and B, 158 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: like Whitney and Luther and Anita Baker, and my dad 159 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: was more into, like I said, motown and the OJ's 160 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And so my upbringing as a 161 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: younger child was a combination of gospel music and current 162 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: R and B and then classic you know, soul. And 163 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: then once I started developing a consciousness in my own 164 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: and and actively buying my own records, I was really 165 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: into New Jack Swing. So, you know, I was in 166 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: middle school around the time like Bell biv de Vaux 167 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: was out, I was in high school when Boys to 168 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: Men was big, and Joe to See and R. Kelly 169 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of those artists that were kind of 170 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: fusing hip hop and R and B in what were 171 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: at the time interesting new ways. Mary j came out 172 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: when I was in high school, and I loved some 173 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: of the motown stuff like Stevie and Marvin. But the 174 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: stuff that we talked about at school, that me and 175 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: my friends were into and excited about in high school 176 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: was the new stuff that was out, and a lot 177 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: of that for us was that new Jack swing sound. 178 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: What was going on in hip hop at that time 179 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: in hip hop, I wasn't that into hip hop until 180 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: I went to college. I didn't really get into hip 181 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: hop in the early nineties. I started to get into 182 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: it much more in the mid to late nineties. But 183 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, I think Biggie came out in like the 184 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: early nineties, Snoop came out, you know, a lot of 185 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: the like the NWA type artists, Public Enemy. These are 186 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: things my friends will listening to. But I wasn't that 187 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: into hip hop until I got a little bit older. 188 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: Where do you go to school. I went to college 189 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: at UPenn in Philadelphia, and so I get to Philly, 190 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: and this was a formative time in my life too. 191 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: I get to Philly right when the Roots are really 192 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: kind of running the scene there musically, but they're also 193 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: working with you know, artists like DeAngelo, common Erica Bado, 194 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: all these arts are not from Philly, but they would 195 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: come to Philly to work with the Roots, and James 196 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: Poyser and these other cats that were producing and recording there. 197 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: Jill Scott was coming from I'm Philly, Jaguar, Balal music, 198 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: Soul Child. All this stuff was happening while I was 199 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: in college. And so in college, I was playing at 200 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: a church UM every Sunday to help pay my bills, 201 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: and then uh, during the week, you know, I was 202 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: singing in an a cappella group UM on campus. But 203 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: I was also going to different open mics and things 204 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: like that. They had a thing called Black Lily UM. 205 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember that, but this was 206 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: like an open mic that the that the Roots and 207 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: the jazzy fat Nasties would host UM and you'd see 208 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: Jill Scott there, you see Balal, there, you see Jaguar, there, 209 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: you see all these different artists. They started UM doing 210 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: it at Wilhelmina's um and then they moved it to 211 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: the five spot and you would see all of this 212 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: music being made um and it was amazing and it 213 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: was exciting to be a witness to it. I didn't 214 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: have any Philly roots at the time. I was just 215 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: going to school there, so I wasn't that connected to 216 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: the local artists scene at that time. But I just 217 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: started to go to these events and observe and be 218 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: inspired by what they did. And then I think between 219 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: that and meeting Lauren Hill in ninety eight through one 220 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: of the singers that was singing in the choir at 221 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: the church that I was playing for, all of those 222 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: things kind of served as inspirations for me to really 223 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: pursue being a solo artist and writing my own music 224 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: and really making an earnest effort to be seen and 225 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: heard by record labels, management and then eventually the world. 226 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: All that started to happen while I was in college, 227 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: while I was in Philly, while I was seeing all 228 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: these other incredible artists doing their thing, it made me 229 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: want to do it. And so at that time would 230 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: you have been when you started pursuing it in that way? 231 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: Did you make demo or did you go out and play? Yeah, 232 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: So I started making demos when I was I graduated 233 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: high school young. I was homeschooled some of my early years, 234 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: and so I graduated high school on a sixteen and 235 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: so I got to Penn when I was sixteen years old. 236 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: I would lie by my age because I just didn't 237 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: want to be the weirdo who was two years younger 238 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: than everybody else. So I would lie and say my 239 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: seventeen made a little younger, but you know it was 240 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't too big of a stretch anyway. I get there, 241 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: I'm sixteen, and I'm figuring myself out what I want 242 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: to do. I'm also, you know, going to class, doing 243 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: a work study job, all these things. But people started 244 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: to hear me sing our auditioned for this acapella group, 245 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: and people loved my voice there, and I started to 246 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: get a little bit of a reputation around campus as 247 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: one of the better singers on campus. And so guys 248 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: that were musicians or songwriters or producers would start to 249 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: reach out to me and say, hey, you want to 250 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: collaborate on some stuff together. I want to help you 251 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: make a demo, I want to help you create some 252 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: new songs. So one of the guys was a guy 253 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: named Dave Tozer who was not a student at Penn, 254 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: but he was living in Philadelphia and was friends with 255 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: some of my friends at school, and so we met. Then. 256 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: He plays a guitar, bass, producers and write songs, and 257 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: we've been writing songs together since then. Were working on 258 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: a project now and we've been writing together since probably 259 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight. There was another 260 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: guy who was graduated from Penn, but he happened to 261 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: be in the same acapella group that I was in, 262 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: and he was producing and arranging for pop artists at 263 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: the time. He was like arranging for Lisa Loebe and 264 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: other artists that were popular at that time in the 265 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: mid to late nineties, and he had seen me at 266 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: one of our shows and was like, Oh, I really 267 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: would love to work with you and write and produce 268 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: with you. Then there was another guy you might might know. 269 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: His name is Ted. He works with Snoop UM and 270 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: he's from out He's from la and Uh. He manages 271 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: Snoop now as part of Snoop's business team. But at 272 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: the time he was just a student at Pen UH 273 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: and he was rapping and producing as well. And UM, 274 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: so all these different guys UM that I met at 275 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: school that we're working on music and producing and writing 276 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: and and we're like, hey, let's collaborate on some stuff. 277 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: And so I started to put together a demo during 278 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: that time, UM and UM. The first demo I created 279 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: was with with Dan Coleman, and then the second one 280 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: I created was with Dave tozer Um. But I was 281 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: also collaborating with other producers and one of the producers 282 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: I met was Veda Nobles who was working with Lauren 283 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: Hill at the time UM and he worked on the 284 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: Miss Education of Lauren Hill. I played piano on Everything 285 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: Is Everything UH when I met Lauren Hill through one 286 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: of my friends that was at the church that I 287 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: was directing music at, and Lauren the day I met 288 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: her asked me to play on the song that they 289 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: were working on at that time, which was Everything Is Everything. 290 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: Also auditioned for her band right after that to see 291 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: if I could go on tour with her after the 292 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: album came out. I didn't make the band, so I 293 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: didn't drop out of school, but I would have, but 294 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: then after that I graduate school. I have a couple 295 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: different demos that I've made, and I keep working on 296 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: new music, trying to get heard by different people, record labels, managers, etc. 297 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: And I take a career detour and become a management consultant. 298 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: It's kind of like almost peer peer pressure, because all 299 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: my other friends were like applying to banks and consulting 300 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: firms and accounting firms. And and one of my friends 301 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: who was a year ahead of me at Penn, she 302 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: had graduated and she was working at this place called 303 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: Boston Consulting Group. And I was like, what do you 304 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: guys do? And she explained what they did, and and 305 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, it seemed like a prestigious thing to do, 306 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: and like something that really smart people should try to do. 307 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: And so I applied and got an interview and got 308 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: the job. And they offered me like fifty grand a 309 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: year the first year out of school, which was a 310 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: gargantuan amount of money for me at the time. My 311 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: dad never made that much money in any year as 312 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: a factory worker. And they offered me this money and 313 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: this job at Boston Consulting Group in Boston, and I'm like, 314 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take it, of course, So I take it. 315 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: I get frustrated living in Boston and asked them to 316 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: transfer me to New York so I could be closer 317 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: to the music scene there. And I moved to New York. 318 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: I room with two guys. One of the guys was 319 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: Kanye's cousin, and Kanye's cousin, his name is Davon Harris. 320 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: He went to penn with me, and he was living 321 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: in New York with another friend of mine, and they 322 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: were living on Second Avenue between Seventh and Saint Mark's 323 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: and they were working in different corporate jobs and they 324 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: were like, do you want to come live with us 325 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: when you moved to town? And I was like yeah. 326 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: And so Devon is working during the day at Price Waterhouse, 327 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: another consulting firm, and but at night he's like making 328 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: beats and he's DJing a little bit. And then his 329 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: cousin moves to town. His cousin, of course, is Kanye West. 330 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: Kanye moves to Newark from Chicago, and this is right 331 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: around I think he's the two thousand or two thousand 332 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: and one. And in two thousand and one, September eleventh, 333 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: the day the Blueprint came out, as you might recall, 334 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: and that's jay Z's you know, really important album, and 335 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: it was huge for Kanye's career and just Blazer's career 336 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: because they had a lot of the beats on that album. 337 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: And Kanye kind of starts to blow up as a producer. 338 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: He just moved to Newark and was working in the 339 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: hip hop scene in the Tri State area and his 340 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: cousin Divan introduces the two of us and says, you 341 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: guys should collaborate, and that time at Kanye he came 342 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: to my show at Jimmy's Uptown in Harlem, and um, 343 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: I was, you know, gigging doing you know, selling my 344 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: demo out of my trunk of my car, playing my 345 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: music for record label executives. And Kanye comes to the 346 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: show and he says we should start working together, and 347 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: we started working together. He was working on what eventually 348 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: became The College Dropout. I would sing on a lot 349 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: of the demos, and then I was working on what 350 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: eventually became Get Lifted, and he made several of the 351 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: beats that embodied uh that that were the you know, 352 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: the tracks for the songs don't Get Lifted. And he 353 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: eventually signed me to his production company, which became known 354 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: as Good Music, and I signed through him to Columbia 355 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: Records eventually in two thousand and four, but we had 356 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: been working together for like two and a half years, 357 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: and when his album College Dropout came out, it was 358 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: like a huge moment. You know. He sold like four 359 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: hundred thousand copies the first week. He was really becoming 360 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: a real musical phenomenon that we know him as today, 361 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: and the labels were like, who's next from his camp? 362 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: And I was next, and so multiple labels wanted to 363 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: sign me. Finally after playing the same demo for them, 364 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: you know, for the last couple of years. Uh, Kanye's 365 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: success made everything that we had made before sound a 366 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: lot better to everybody, and so I multiple offers, and 367 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: I took the offer at Columbia, and I'm still at Columbias. 368 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from John Legend. We're 369 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: back with more from Rick and John Legend. Let's talk 370 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: about ordinary people, because it's when you think of the 371 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: popular music of the day when it came out, and 372 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: that's not what it sounds like. It really it really 373 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: stands apart from everything else going. And I can remember 374 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: kind of playing for playing it for me then, and 375 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: I remember being surprised that that's what he was playing me. Yeah, yeah, 376 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: And that has an interesting story as well. I was 377 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: managed by David Sonenberg and David managed and Seth Friedman, 378 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: and they managed The Black Eyed Peas and so very 379 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: early into me signing with them, Um, they loved the 380 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: stuff I had done with Kanye, but they were like, 381 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: do you want to work with our guy? Will I am. 382 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: He's really talented too, He's a great musician, and I 383 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: feel like you guys wire vibe well together. And we 384 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: wrote a couple of songs that ended up on my album. 385 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: One of them was she Don't Have to Know. That 386 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: was the first song we ever wrote together. Then I 387 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: wrote some hooks and other things for the Black Eyed 388 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: Peas and then he loved writing with me and was like, um, 389 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: can you come and do another session writing hooks for us? 390 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: And he played a beat that was loosely based on 391 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: on that la la la la la la la la 392 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: la la la la la from my Sharia Moore Stevie 393 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: Wonder song, just that one section of the song. He 394 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: made a beat that was kind of based on that, 395 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: and um, Um, I started singing, We're just ordinary people 396 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: to this beat, and it was meant to be a 397 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: black Eyed Peas hook that they would rap, you know, 398 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: on the verses. But the more I thought about the song, 399 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, well, I feel like 400 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: this song isn't a Black Eyed Piece song. It's a 401 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: John Legend song. And I basically took it back, took 402 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: back the chorus and started writing a song, you know, 403 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: a full song for me to sing around that chorus. 404 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: And that's the story of ordinary people. So I told 405 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: Will that, you know, if you let me take the 406 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: chorus back, I'll let you produce the final product. And 407 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: eventually we all came to the understanding that the demo 408 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: of me just singing it with vocal and piano was 409 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: better than anything we could do to it, to you know, 410 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: make it sound more relevant or current or whatever, and 411 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: so we just left it the way it was. It's 412 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: a it's a remarkably bold choice. It was clearly the 413 00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: right choice, but very unusual, you know. It's so there 414 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: are so many stories of the demos being better than 415 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: the records, and this was one where the demo got 416 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: to be the record. And it happens rarely, especially, and 417 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: the reason it happens so rarely is because it rarely 418 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: fits with what's going on. But yeah, when you allow 419 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: something to be the thing that it is in its 420 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 1: own greatness, as opposed to its own as opposed to 421 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: how it relates to other things, it can have a 422 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: life of its own, and it can have a life 423 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: of its own that can transcend everything else that's going 424 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: on that sounds like everything else, So it can actually 425 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: exactly be a bigger deal. And I think it had 426 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: the power of stopping everyone in their tracks when it 427 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: came on the radio. People would tell me that they 428 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: remembered the first time they heard it, and I think 429 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: the fact that it sounded so different than everything else 430 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: made you stop and pay attention in a way that 431 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have done so otherwise. Absolutely, tell me a 432 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: little bit about stylistically that particular song. What would you 433 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: say the inspiration was musically? Like, where was your head 434 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 1: at for that to sound like that? Well, clearly Stevie 435 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: Wonder was there, because we uh, we definitely based it 436 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: off of a part of my Sharia Moore. But when 437 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: you look at the top line, the vocal and the 438 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: melody of the song, it's not really exactly a Stevie 439 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: Wonder type melody. It was kind of based on some 440 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: of my gospel influences, I think as much as anything, 441 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: I don't even think of the piano as Stevie related. Yeah, 442 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: but if you look at the actual progression, it's very 443 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: similar to the progression on that one part of my 444 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: Sharia Moore La La La La La la. That part 445 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: it's first similar to that. But um, I think I 446 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: think I had some gospel influences on it and some 447 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: Stevie and it just came out the way it came out. Now, 448 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: if we skipped forward to All of Me, which was 449 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: another song that was you and a piano, Uh, huh 450 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: how did that happened? That was more like a classic. 451 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: Just sitting down writing on the piano session. I was 452 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: writing with Toby gad Um. He has a house and 453 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: uh in the valley and uh you know, he has 454 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: a lovely grand piano and he just sits there and 455 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: write songs. And he's written songs with all kinds of artists. Um, 456 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: some really classic songs. Um. But um, we just sat 457 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: there and kept writing until we felt good about it. Um. 458 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: The one thing I will say, my manager mentioned she's 459 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: always a woman the Billy Joels song um to me 460 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: and was like you should write a song like that 461 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: for Chrissy and um, she had said that to me 462 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: probably within the week of me doing that session, and uh, 463 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: we had tried a few ideas when we were writing 464 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: Toby and I and I thought back to my manager 465 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: saying that, and UH decided let's try to do that. 466 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: And for some reason, all of Me Loves all of 467 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,239 Speaker 1: You was the course that came to mind. And and 468 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: then it just it happened. And most of my writing 469 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: sessions don't take long. They're usually just a few hours, 470 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: maybe three hours, four hours, including you know, recording a 471 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: demo of it. Um, So it doesn't usually take me 472 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: the long to get somewhere with the song. And I 473 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: try to be prolific as far as just creating more 474 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: and more and and uh. And you know, of course 475 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: you'll discard more things than you actually use. But I 476 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: feel like if I go to the well as many 477 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: times as possible, then I'll come up with something great 478 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: more often. And so that's what I do great in 479 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: in that three or four hours. How much of the 480 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: song I know you end up with the demo? Do 481 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: you have all the words? Um? I usually have ninety 482 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: percent of what the final product is going to be. 483 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Part it is because I like to write 484 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: with co writers, and so I think when you write 485 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: with someone else, between the two or three of you, 486 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: you'll you'll get like pretty much everything you need for 487 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: the lyric, and it comes to me. It comes to 488 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: me pretty quickly, and especially when I'm working with someone else, 489 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: because those fresh ideas and fresh lens on who I 490 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: am and what they expect from me. I think it's 491 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: cool to have different perspectives in the room, and I 492 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: think it helps us write pretty quickly, Beautiful. There's also 493 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: a there's a certain benefit to taking advantage of the 494 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: moment when the song first arrives. Yeah, it's like an 495 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: energy that's very hard to recreate. Absolutely, And I'll occasionally 496 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: go back and say, ah, this lyric isn't as effective 497 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: as I would like it to be. Let me change 498 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: it to something else. And I'll occasionally do that, But 499 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: almost all of my songs are pretty close to being 500 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: finished as compositions in the first session, Beautiful. Have you 501 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: ever considered doing the whole album of just you and 502 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: a piano. Yes, I've done a live album like that. 503 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: This was way back we called it Live at the 504 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: ten Angel. Uh, no live a the Knitting Factory. Sorry, Uh, 505 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: we did one live at the ten Angel too, but 506 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: that was acoustic guitar and but I did live with 507 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: the Knitting Factory. Was just me on the piano the 508 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: whole time. This is right before Get Lifted us. I think, 509 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: oh three, Get Lifted came out No. Four, but I 510 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: haven't done one since. Um, but I would definitely consider 511 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: doing that. It feels like we like hearing you that way. Yeah, 512 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: absolutely cool. But can you think of any difficulties that 513 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: you've had to overcome to get to where you are now? Oh? 514 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: I feel like there's always difficulties. I mean, I mean 515 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: you start with just trying to be seen and heard 516 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: and make the right connections with the right people that 517 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: will help you amplify your voice to the rest of 518 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: the world. So part of that is just, you know, 519 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: in the traditional music business, it was trying to get 520 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: a record deal, which isn't is more optional now than 521 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: it used to be. Um, But back in oh four, 522 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: O two oh three, it felt very mandatory. UM. And 523 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: so you know, part of what the difficulties were with 524 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: just being taken seriously and and and having your value 525 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: seen by gatekeepers that um, that decide who gets heard 526 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: by the masses. But even now, you're still every time 527 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: you put a new song out, every time you put 528 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: an album out, there are still gatekeepers or streaming services, 529 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: radio programmers, the fans themselves. Um, everybody's still evaluating you. 530 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: What have you done for me lately? One song at 531 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: a time or one album at a time. And just 532 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: because you've been successful before, it doesn't mean they're going 533 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: to embrace whatever you do next. And so I feel 534 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: like it's always going to be difficult and and and 535 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: in some ways you could argue that it gets harder 536 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: once you hit a certain age in this business, uh 537 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: that values youth and newness. Um, you know if the 538 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: same if if an artist fifteen years younger than me 539 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: put out the same music, would it be accepted more 540 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: because they're fresh and new? I don't know. But all 541 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: I can do is make music that I'm excited about 542 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: that I hope I can get other folks excited about. Absolutely. 543 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: So we talked about, um, the church informing your music. 544 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: Would you say that the church informed you in other 545 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: ways beyond music? You know? I think, um, my parents 546 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: took their faith very seriously and they they weren't hypocritical, 547 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, because I there's a common train of kind 548 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: of holier than now fundamentalist Christians who are not only 549 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, devout in the sense if they go to 550 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: church a lot, but they used it almost as a 551 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: weapon to judge other people and to condemn other people. 552 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: But I always got the sense of my parents weren't 553 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: like that, they weren't hypocritical about it, and they actually 554 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: took Christianity to heart in the sense of they wanted 555 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: to be good people. They wanted to help their neighbors, 556 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: they wanted to help the poor, they wanted to just 557 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: live kind of have a healthy moral life where they 558 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: did things that would hold up in their conscience and 559 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: uh and and things that they could be proud of, 560 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: and tried to set a good example for us. And 561 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: so I think they even though I'm not religious now 562 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: and and don't attend church or any religious services, I 563 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: do feel like the lessons that they try to impart 564 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: on us about character and what it means to be 565 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: a good human being that for them were informed by 566 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,479 Speaker 1: their faith. But you know, they could be informed by 567 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, but for them, it was informed 568 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: by their faith, and I think those messages did stick 569 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: with me, and I think they've helped me think about 570 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: how I'm supposed to move in the world. It's helped 571 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: me think about what character means, what it means to 572 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: be a good human being. Beautiful. It sounds like you're 573 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: It sounds like you're lucky in that regard. Yeah, and 574 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: and and and. Like I said, I don't believe that 575 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: church or you know, or mosque or synagogue is the 576 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: only way that you can learn these things or think 577 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: about these things. But when there is a group of 578 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: people that have committed themselves to trying to be good 579 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: human beings and they talk about what that means and 580 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: hold each other accountable, I think it is a healthy 581 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: thing if it doesn't go too far. How would you 582 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: say your relationship to music has changed since the early 583 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: days of going to church to now? Oh, that's a 584 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: good question. Music still gives me so much joy. I 585 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: love writing music. I don't feel like I've gotten jaded 586 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: in this business. I love writing music. I love the 587 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: feeling when it comes together. Sometimes it doesn't come together 588 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: all the way in the songwriting session, but when the production, 589 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: the arrangement comes together, the you know, the right groove, 590 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: the right guitar part, the right string arrangement, when the 591 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: record really comes together and you just feel like you 592 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: want to be immersed in it. It's so joyful, it's 593 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: so exciting, it's so moving for me. And then when 594 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: I hear other artists do that in a way that 595 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: moves me, it just renews my faith in music, and 596 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: my faith in music just keeps being renewed, and it's 597 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: a really I feel so fortunate to have this be 598 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: the thing that I do most of my life. It's 599 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: pretty amazing. Let Me come back, John shares with us 600 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: the song he's currently obsessed with. We're back with John 601 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: Legend beautiful. Do you remember the last thing that really 602 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: moved you musically? Oh, let's think. Well, there's a song 603 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: called Outcome Too by James Blake. I play that song 604 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: a lot for some reason. Something about that song. I 605 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: one of my influences that I didn't talk about was 606 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: nat King Cole, and I like kind of that kind 607 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: of classic kind of gersh any Uh Cole Porter, those 608 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: kinds of song songwriters from back in the day. And 609 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: I loved Naking Cole's voice. And I was talking to 610 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: James about that um with outcome too was it reminded 611 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: me of some of those old songs and something about 612 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: the way he sings it, the production, everything about it. 613 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: I just want to hear it over and over again. 614 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna play it right now. I really want to 615 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: hear Yeah let's see I'll Come Too by James Blake. Yeah, beautiful. 616 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: It's so such a well written song. I love how 617 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: the melody swoops like oh god, yo wait that's right, 618 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: and the strings, and I love how romantic it is 619 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: and unronic it is. It's just like, you know, it's 620 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: like it's about diving in, you know, and uh, it 621 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: really does remind me of one of those old like 622 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties kind of almost like an old show too. Yeah, exactly, 623 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: And it's so lovely, really beautiful. Yeah, thank you for 624 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: sharing that all rat Man, Well, thank you for doing this. 625 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. And I have lots of new music that's 626 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: coming soon, so hopefully everybody will check all that out 627 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: when it comes. But I've been in the studio a 628 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: lot the last eighteen months whenever I've had the free time, 629 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: and we've made some things. I'm really excited for people 630 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: to hear. Big thanks to John Legend for taking the 631 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: time out to video conference with us. His new song 632 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: Actions is out now, with a full album to come 633 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: later this year. You can stream some of our favorite 634 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: John Legend songs at broken record podcast dot com. Broken 635 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: Record is produced with help from Jason Gambrell me LaBelle 636 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: Leah Rose, Matt Leboza, and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. 637 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. 638 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.