Speaker 1: Hi, It's Nancy Glass. I hope you've been able to
Speaker 1: watch Burden of Guilt, the docu series on Paramount Plus.
Speaker 1: That's where you can see the actual footage from the trial.
Speaker 1: You can meet the investigators, and of course you'll see
Speaker 1: Tracy Riquel Burns, the hero, the warrior in this story.
Speaker 1: And now that it's on the air, I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk with her again. Tracy Riquel, this is our first
Speaker 1: conversation since the documentary premiered on Paramount Plus. So what's
Speaker 1: life been like for you since the TV series launched?
Speaker 2: That is a tough one. A life has been well, overwhelming,
Speaker 2: It's been overwhelming. I didn't expect to feel so exposed.
Speaker 2: I think prior to all of this, if if you
Speaker 2: had googled my name, nothing would have ever come up.
Speaker 2: You would have never seen a picture. And that's very
Speaker 2: much how I how I liked my life to be.
Speaker 2: I felt very safe and comfortable. And it's absolutely not
Speaker 2: that that way now. And I knew that was going
Speaker 2: to be that way, and I and I you know,
Speaker 2: I understood the risk for that. And there are purposes
Speaker 2: for doing this, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2: But yes, it's been it's been overwhelming to me, and
Speaker 2: you know, I've had sleepless nights and all of that
Speaker 2: is just trauma from my childhood, and you know, feeling
Speaker 2: vulnerable and afraid, I wanted to, you know, crawl into
Speaker 2: the corner of my closet and not come out, to
Speaker 2: be honest, but it's irrational and you have to talk
Speaker 2: yourself through it, and I have.
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, Tracy Ruquel. I don't think there's
Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with that. I think that's a natural reaction.
Speaker 1: But I do wonder do you regret having made the
Speaker 1: documentary and the podcast.
Speaker 3: No, I mean.
Speaker 2: No, I do not regret doing it. I have moments
Speaker 2: where you know, you wish you could have your cake
Speaker 2: and eat it too. But if that makes some sort
Speaker 2: of sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you wish you could tell your story and then
Speaker 1: disappear into the ether.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could have my total safe feeling and be
Speaker 2: totally anonymous. And it doesn't work that way, and I
Speaker 2: get that. So no, I have no regrets. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's what stepping into the fire is all about.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you about jan Berry Salmon, the murderer,
Speaker 1: the man who killed your baby brother and the man
Speaker 1: who is your father.
Speaker 3: Well, we don't know that for sure.
Speaker 1: We don't know for sure. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know who is my biological father, and.
Speaker 1: You're hoping it's not Jan Barry Sanmlin.
Speaker 3: Yes, at this point, that's just not even something I
Speaker 3: think about.
Speaker 1: But you saw him on the documentary. How did he
Speaker 1: look to you?
Speaker 2: He looks like an elderly man that's been in prison
Speaker 2: for a very very long time.
Speaker 3: You know. He looks like he's been through a lot,
Speaker 3: and he looks rough.
Speaker 1: How many years has it been since you've seen Jan's face?
Speaker 2: I have seen Jan's face twice a month every year
Speaker 2: since the trials. Why because I go on Florida Department
Speaker 2: of Corrections twice a month to make sure he's still
Speaker 2: in prison. And I heard Leanne Mangon on the docuseries,
Speaker 2: and she was one of the prosecutors say that he
Speaker 2: is one of the only people that she's ever put
Speaker 2: in prison that she goes on Google to check and
Speaker 2: see that he's still in prison. And it shocked me
Speaker 2: when I heard it, and I was like, yes, that's
Speaker 2: what I do. I go and make sure he is
Speaker 2: still sitting where he is and so, yes, it wasn't
Speaker 2: shocking to me to see his face because I see
Speaker 2: it all the time and they update that picture every Sunday.
Speaker 2: So if he were to ever break out of prison
Speaker 2: or they let him out of prison, I know exactly
Speaker 2: what he looks like and I know exactly where he is.
Speaker 2: And maybe some people would say that's unhealthy, or maybe
Speaker 2: it's healthy, it's beneficial to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're doing.
Speaker 1: What you need to protect yourself apparently. So yes, have
Speaker 1: you heard from Kathy, your mother since this came out?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: And you haven't heard from Sheila, her sister.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to shift to Ted Golder. He was
Speaker 1: married to your mother and you thought he might have
Speaker 1: been your father. He was definitely your baby brother, Matthew's
Speaker 1: biological father, and you talked about him at length in
Speaker 1: the podcast. Well, as you know, we received an email
Speaker 1: from his sister. Can I read part of that email
Speaker 1: to you and talk with you about your feelings?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: So she says, I'm the sister of Ted Golder. My
Speaker 1: brother passed away in two thousand and six of als
Speaker 1: and since he has no voice to speak his side
Speaker 1: of the story, I'll speak for him. My mother told
Speaker 1: him to stay away from Kathy. That's your mother. She
Speaker 1: was not the girl for him. But my brother had
Speaker 1: no intention of listening to my mother, and so it began.
Speaker 1: He was in love with her. She could do no
Speaker 1: wrong in his eyes. She was a majorrete in high school,
Speaker 1: very popular. He was proud of her. He was aware
Speaker 1: of her relationship with Jan Sanlin, but blind to the
Speaker 1: fact of how deeply she was involved with him and
Speaker 1: would never break that tie. And as she stated at
Speaker 1: the trial, Kathy said, I loved Jan since I was
Speaker 1: twelve years old and that never wavered. So now, in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, Ted gets drafted and he had to
Speaker 1: go to Vietnam and during his tour of duty, that's
Speaker 1: when Kathy, who was his wife at the time, wrote
Speaker 1: him a Dear John letter. Dear John, is goodbye, It's over.
Speaker 1: She still has that letter. His sister still has that letter.
Speaker 1: So he wrote to his mother and told her about
Speaker 1: the letter, and he said he threw his wedding ring
Speaker 1: into the Sigone River. He said, mother, you're right. And
Speaker 1: Kathy said to him in the letter that her baby
Speaker 1: was Jan Sandlan's baby, and he was getting divorced from her.
Speaker 1: And then you fast forward to the summer of nineteen seventy.
Speaker 1: Ted returns home and he's back with Kathy. Tracy's just
Speaker 1: a baby. My mother and father accepted it and even
Speaker 1: had Kathy, Ted and Tracy up on the lake in
Speaker 1: their boat. So everything seemed to be going fine. Ted
Speaker 1: and Kathy got apartment, and Kathy was pregnant, and I
Speaker 1: would visit them in their apartment. I even suggested to
Speaker 1: Cathy to name the baby Matthew, and everything seemed to
Speaker 1: be fine. Then Ted called his sister to say he
Speaker 1: came home from work and Cathy had moved out. She
Speaker 1: was maybe seven months pregnant. No reason, just left. Ted
Speaker 1: had to regroup. He quit his job in Alabama, he
Speaker 1: moved back to Atlanta. He was never able to see
Speaker 1: his son, Matthew born, or even know where Kathy had gone.
Speaker 1: He had no way of finding her yet. Then he
Speaker 1: came back to Atlanta, was notified that the baby was dead,
Speaker 1: and the first time he saw his son was at
Speaker 1: a funeral home. And then the night he came home
Speaker 1: from the funeral, he put his fists through our parents' door.
Speaker 1: He was so distraught. And then years later my brother
Speaker 1: told me about a paternity test, and how he was
Speaker 1: to be, you know, talking to you, Tracy, and he
Speaker 1: was excited. This is now. He was excited to maybe
Speaker 1: be having grandchildren. He told me they could come over,
Speaker 1: jump all over his furniture, he wouldn't care. But the
Speaker 1: test came back and you weren't his daughter, and he
Speaker 1: was very, very disappointed. Even though everybody knew all along
Speaker 1: the truth, he was still hoping for a miracle. The
Speaker 1: letter also says that she and her sister were at
Speaker 1: the trial every day in the back row, and after
Speaker 1: the trial, they're interviewing Kathy, your mother outside the courthouse.
Speaker 1: She was never charged with anything, but Ted's sister came
Speaker 1: up to Kathy and told her she was just as
Speaker 1: guilty as Jan and she needed to be in jail. So,
Speaker 1: if I were to sum up that letter, here's the
Speaker 1: gist of it. So Ted and Kathy get married. Ted
Speaker 1: goes off to Vietnam. He gets a letter from Kathy,
Speaker 1: A dear John letter said saying, I don't love you.
Speaker 1: The baby isn't yours. I want a divorce. He's broken hearted.
Speaker 1: He gets home, but then everything seems to be fine again.
Speaker 1: They're living together, they're happy. He comes home one day
Speaker 1: and Kathy's moved out. He doesn't know what's happened, he
Speaker 1: doesn't know where she's gone. He moves to Atlanta to
Speaker 1: go and find her, and the only thing he knows
Speaker 1: about this baby is that the baby has died. So,
Speaker 1: Tercy Riquel, what do you think of that letter?
Speaker 2: Most of what she said in the letter is the
Speaker 2: same information that Ted had said to me when I
Speaker 2: was speaking to him in the early to mid nineties.
Speaker 2: There was a period of time that I had communicated
Speaker 2: with Ted Golder. We had gotten in touch. He wanted
Speaker 2: to do a paternity test, and we talked for about
Speaker 2: six weeks, and during that six weeks he had told
Speaker 2: me pretty much what she states in this letter.
Speaker 1: You spoke to Ted Golder's sister on the phone. What
Speaker 1: did she say to you?
Speaker 2: You know, she told me about her brother and you
Speaker 2: know him in high school, and how handsome and sweet
Speaker 2: he was, and you know how much she loved him,
Speaker 2: and that he, you know, would have been a good father,
Speaker 2: and the relationship with Kathy, and you know the things
Speaker 2: that they saw that went wrong with Kathy, and obviously
Speaker 2: Kathy's draw to Jam.
Speaker 1: Well, Kathy cheated on Ted golder with Jam and even
Speaker 1: when she was married to Ted, she cheated on him
Speaker 1: with Jam. Yes, I can't even imagine the emotions of
Speaker 1: talking to this woman who at one point was your aunt.
Speaker 1: What else did she tell you?
Speaker 2: Okay, so a couple of things that she told me
Speaker 2: in the conversation that we had was one she said,
Speaker 2: you know, I saw your mother, Kathy and the newspaper once.
Speaker 2: And I thought she was referencing the trials that she
Speaker 2: saw Kathy maybe in the newspaper during the trials, And
Speaker 2: I said really, and she said, yeah, she had two
Speaker 2: broken legs and a broken arm, so she was almost
Speaker 2: in a body cast. And it occurred to me like
Speaker 2: I remembered two broken arms, two broken legs, right, And
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, that was a suicide attempt.
Speaker 2: And she said, oh, I didn't know that because in
Speaker 2: the paper they didn't say that.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a story that you told both on the
Speaker 1: podcast and in the documentary of Kathy putting you in
Speaker 1: a seat on the balcony and then jumping off in
Speaker 1: front of you and not dying, but breaking both arms
Speaker 1: and both legs.
Speaker 2: She sat me on, just sat me on the porch
Speaker 2: and then jumped off, and my memory was that she
Speaker 2: broke both arms and both legs, but it was both
Speaker 2: legs and an arm, and I thought that was really
Speaker 2: ironic that there's this picture out there in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: two of her in this cast you know of this
Speaker 2: event that you know this directly relinked to this memory
Speaker 2: that I have. Another thing that she told me was
Speaker 2: my younger brother, Jason, was actually in kindergarten or the
Speaker 2: first grade, I can't remember which with one of her boys,
Speaker 2: and she said, Jason came to school one day and said,
Speaker 2: my father is in prison and he killed my little brother,
Speaker 2: and when he gets out, I'm going to kill him. Now,
Speaker 2: the relevance of this is is that that would have
Speaker 2: made Jason about seven, so I would have been around twelve.
Speaker 2: Now that's when Kathy started, like openly she had been
Speaker 2: around eleven or twelve, openly telling me Jan did it?
Speaker 3: Jane killed him? Jan is that whatever? You know? It
Speaker 3: was just this confirmation to me.
Speaker 1: I guess I would have thought, then, why didn't Kathy
Speaker 1: go to the authorities or even pam Ted Goulder's sister
Speaker 1: who you spoke to. Did she consider going to the authorities,
Speaker 1: because after all, it was her nephew.
Speaker 2: I think that everybody thought that there was something wrong
Speaker 2: with a whole lot of things in that county and
Speaker 2: surrounding counties. Not to be cryptic, but I think that
Speaker 2: there was a whole lot of homicides and crimes that
Speaker 2: were suspicious. And I think a lot of people thought
Speaker 2: there were a lot of things that were wrong and mishandled.
Speaker 1: And that is in connection with jan Sandlin. Even in
Speaker 1: Pam's letters, she says, I think he killed his first wife,
Speaker 1: Nancy Tegetter. That was the case where it was determined
Speaker 1: to be a suicide, except that how did Nancy Tagatter
Speaker 1: wrap herself up in sheets after she shot herself? And
Speaker 1: why would a pregnant woman commit suicide by shooting herself
Speaker 1: in the stomach. It made no sense whatsoever. And also
Speaker 1: William David Corn, that's another case that Jane has been
Speaker 1: associated with. William David Korn was a police officer, and
Speaker 1: the latest thing that we found in our research was
Speaker 1: that it's possible that William David Korn was having an
Speaker 1: affair with Nancy Tagatter and that's why they both ended
Speaker 1: up dead.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: I recently was told that Nancy was dating a police officer,
Speaker 2: but the name was never said, so I don't know
Speaker 2: who who the police officer was, but that she was
Speaker 2: dating a police officer, but that person had no idea
Speaker 2: who the police officer was.
Speaker 1: So well, the police always had their suspicions about Jan's
Speaker 1: involvement in these two deaths. Did you ever hear stories
Speaker 1: about that while you were growing up?
Speaker 2: So as a child, over and over again, I had
Speaker 2: heard that Jan killed Nancy. He came to her afterwards
Speaker 2: that he killed a police officer, and they drove to
Speaker 2: Alabama and threw the gun in a lake. And that's
Speaker 2: what drove me to, you know, to Cab County for
Speaker 2: the first time, to pull that incident report. No, actually
Speaker 2: to pull a police report. And all there was was
Speaker 2: an incident report. Now I was very young and didn't understand,
Speaker 2: but I understood enough to say, this is all there is.
Speaker 2: Like it didn't make any sense to me. So when I,
Speaker 2: you know, first got Jim maybe on the phone and
Speaker 2: talked to him. He was my angel, he was my savior.
Speaker 2: He's the very first person who said I will get
Speaker 2: this done. He said, send me a letter, and then
Speaker 2: I sent him a letter outlining all of that didn't
Speaker 2: know who the police officer was at that time, but
Speaker 2: that exact phrase that she said over and over, that's
Speaker 2: what I sent him. And the thing was, he knew
Speaker 2: all of that, and he knew Jan Sandlin, and he
Speaker 2: says that's why he took that case and it.
Speaker 3: Was so helpful.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: He suspected Jan Sandlin from day one. Tracy Raquel, We've
Speaker 1: received quite a few questions about this story, and one
Speaker 1: in particular involves you changing your name from Tracy to
Speaker 1: Tracy Riquel. Do you want to address that.
Speaker 2: Yes, So let's just back up a little bit. And
Speaker 2: this is very complicated, but we'll back up. When I
Speaker 2: started school first grade, my name is Tracy Sandlin, and
Speaker 2: I went through school as Tracy Sandlin because that's who
Speaker 2: Cathy was with even when she wasn't with him. Now,
Speaker 2: at twelve or thirteen years old, I needed a birth
Speaker 2: certificate for something and social Security card and she hesitated,
Speaker 2: like you wouldn't believe, beat around the bush for weeks
Speaker 2: till it finally was unavoidable. And the reason was because
Speaker 2: on my birth certificate she was married to Ted Golder
Speaker 2: when I was born, and on my birth certificate my
Speaker 2: name was Golder. So I've got eight years of school
Speaker 2: records that are not legal. Had to go to a
Speaker 2: judge and the judge asked me, what name do you want?
Speaker 2: So I went to the name that was on my
Speaker 2: birth certificate, Golder, not to mention it was match same
Speaker 2: and that makes sense, and I didn't want anything to
Speaker 2: do with jam changed everything. So now legally my name
Speaker 2: is Tracy Raquel Golder. Now we fast forward to I'm
Speaker 2: in my twenties speaking to Ted Golder and he wants
Speaker 2: to do this paternity test.
Speaker 3: He called on the.
Speaker 2: Phone and he said, well the results came back, then
Speaker 2: you're not my daughter. And he said, you're a very
Speaker 2: nice woman. You're lovely. I wish you all the best,
Speaker 2: but I can't have anything to do with you, and
Speaker 2: I would like it if you no longer use my name.
Speaker 3: So I didn't when it was necessary. Raquel became my
Speaker 3: last name.
Speaker 2: And then when I got married, my first name became
Speaker 2: Tracy Rikel. And it was very important to me that
Speaker 2: my first name be Tracey Raquel because it's all I have.
Speaker 2: And so that's why it is so important to me.
Speaker 2: That's my name and it's all I have. Now it
Speaker 2: wasn't so upset to setting to me that I wasn't
Speaker 2: his daughter. It hurt my feelings that he said I
Speaker 2: don't want anything to do with you, you know, But
Speaker 2: what was really upsetting to me was that this and
Speaker 2: I understand, you know that it's a piece of symbolism,
Speaker 2: What was really upsetting to me was that it, you know,
Speaker 2: he sort of verbally took this connection that I had
Speaker 2: to Matthew a way. And you know what, when I
Speaker 2: spoke with his sister, I told her because I said,
Speaker 2: you know, i'm gonna explain this on the podcast because
Speaker 2: a lot of people have asked why you know the name?
Speaker 2: And I said, you know, I don't want to hurt
Speaker 2: your feeling, but and I'm sorry, I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: she said. After I told her, she said, you know what,
Speaker 2: it sounds like something he would have done. And I said,
Speaker 2: I don't know if he just had a knee jerk
Speaker 2: reaction or if he was just mad or whatever. And
Speaker 2: she said, you know, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sorry, it sounds like a very nice person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I you know, and I never spoke to
Speaker 2: him again, but I am the kind of person that
Speaker 2: if you asked me not to do something I'm not
Speaker 2: going to ever do.
Speaker 1: It tracea raquel. It took me a couple of years
Speaker 1: to get you to agree to tell your story. You
Speaker 1: didn't want the attention, but you did have a motive
Speaker 1: for finally participating in the docu series. You want to
Speaker 1: share that with.
Speaker 3: Us, so I wrote some notes down.
Speaker 1: Of course, by all means, I know this isn't easy,
Speaker 1: So tell us what made you decide you needed to
Speaker 1: do this.
Speaker 2: Matthew is a part of me, and it's important that
Speaker 2: I show my love for him. I believe that his
Speaker 2: remains laid in his little casket waiting for me, and
Speaker 2: I thank him.
Speaker 3: So much for that.
Speaker 2: I did this also because I wanted to bring awareness
Speaker 2: to the spectrum of child abuse that happens in homes,
Speaker 2: both seen and unseen. But there's something else. I don't
Speaker 2: believe the full extent of justice has been served. I've
Speaker 2: always felt an obligation deeply to the family of the
Speaker 2: other victims of Jan, in part because of the information
Speaker 2: that was told to me over and over as a child. Also,
Speaker 2: other families have experienced profound loss because of Jan. I
Speaker 2: don't want to be cryptic, but if you follow this
Speaker 2: story closely, it will become clear that the same system
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy through seventy two that classified Matthew's death
Speaker 2: as an accident has failed to properly address other acts
Speaker 2: of violence that deserve attention. My hope is that people
Speaker 2: will start having conversations about this, and I truly believe
Speaker 2: that they have and I've seen that they are.
Speaker 1: Well, that was beautifully said before we wrap up. I
Speaker 1: know there's something else you want to clear up.
Speaker 2: You know what y'all might think this is silly. In
Speaker 2: the docu series, I did say I didn't do anything wrong,
Speaker 2: and that's not true. I did violate seaquestration, even if
Speaker 2: it was walking by and pausing for thirty seconds and
Speaker 2: seeing her. I violated seaquestration and I knew that at
Speaker 2: the time, you know, I mean I might not have
Speaker 2: stopped and watched the program and recorded it and did
Speaker 2: all this stuff. But I want to say, yes, I
Speaker 2: know I did that. Can we say that in the podcast?
Speaker 2: Can I say I did I violated seaquestration? Do you
Speaker 2: think it matters or do you think anyone cares?
Speaker 3: Or well?
Speaker 1: I think if you care, then that's what matters. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's always been our attitude towards the story. If it
Speaker 1: means something to you, it means something to us.
Speaker 2: And then what you don't know is that there were
Speaker 2: two more trials, right and every time I got on
Speaker 2: the stand, the judge turned to the jury and told
Speaker 2: them basically that I was dishonest because I had violated sequestration.
Speaker 2: And what everybody fails to realize is that then I
Speaker 2: had to leave the court room with this massive amount
Speaker 2: of press and the news everywhere going that girl who
Speaker 2: brought the case it failed it and brought it like
Speaker 2: you know, and it was all over the news about
Speaker 2: how I, you know what, I failed it, how I
Speaker 2: blew it up, and you know, I mean it was
Speaker 2: mass humiliation, like it was just horrifying, you know, And
Speaker 2: then what do you have to do? You have to
Speaker 2: I'm begging them to bring the case back, and then
Speaker 2: you got to swallow your pride two months later just
Speaker 2: go back in there and do it again.
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to say what I've said to
Speaker 1: you one hundred times, thank you, thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing your story and for beeting you.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I have clearly have made a
Speaker 2: lot of mistakes along the way, embarrassing as it is,
Speaker 2: but yeah, well
Speaker 1: We could argue about that forever, and you can stream
Speaker 1: the entire three part Burden of Guilt docuseries right now
Speaker 1: on Paramount Plus