1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm really happy to introduce to you Secretary of State 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: KNDA Liza Rice, who joins us from from Washington. The 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: last time I spoke to you, Madam Secretary, was during 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: the two thousand presidential campaign. So it's long overdue, but 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: welcome to the program here. Well, it's great to be 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: with you Russia. I can't believe it's been that long. 7 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Time flies when you're good, good, good time. Look, I 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: want to get straight to this because I know your 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: time is limited. The press conference today the President had 10 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: about the congressional legislation he wants Democrats opposed. I'm not 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: trying to draw you into political questions here. The rest 12 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: assured you've got the three Republicans McCain and Warner and 13 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: UH and Lindsay Graham joining the Democrats opposing this. Secretary 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: Powell wrote Senator McCain a letter that McCain is publicized. 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: You have responded in a letter to Secretary Warner. What 16 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: did you say? Well, in fact, I sent the letter 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: before I had seen a Secretary Pell's letter. I My 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: letter simply stated the Department of States position, which is 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: at UH the interpretation of a US treaty obligation through 20 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: US law is something that we do frequently and all 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,919 Speaker 1: the time. We're not trying to change what's called Common 22 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Article free. We're not trying to UH to weaken it. 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: We just want our professionals to have clarity so that 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: they know what is legal and what is not. And 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: I have absolutely no problem defending what the President has 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: asked the Congress to do. When I go internationally, I 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: think it only makes sense that you would not leave 28 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: UH a very unclear standard like that of Common Article three, 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: which talks about outrages on human on human dignity, for 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: instance Rush. You don't want to leave that to unaccountable 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors for instance, internationally. You want US law to defend, 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: to define that, Madam Secretary, People like me don't understand 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: the substance of this. UH. We see pictures of people 34 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: jumping out the World Trade Center on nine eleven this week, 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: we we remember the videotapes of the kind of treatment 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: American and foreign hostages receive at the hands of our 37 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: enemy when when in their captivity. I don't understand the 38 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: effort on the part of those who opposed this in 39 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: Congress to try to establish a moral equivalency between the 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: way we treat prisoners and the way our enemy does, 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and to suggest that, uh, we can't do something here 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: because it might incite them to be even meaner to us. 43 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: Could you help me and others like me understand the 44 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: common sense of opposing this. I can't, I can't get 45 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: my arms around it. Well, Rush, I have to say, 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: I think I don't quite understand either, why we would 47 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: not give the the professionals, our professionals a clear standard 48 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: so that they know that they are obeying the law. 49 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: These are people who take tremendous risks to try and 50 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: defend us. Uh. They have made tremendous trades in getting 51 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: information from people like collegue Chech Mohammed who planned nine eleven, 52 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: from people like Ramsey Ben al Sheep, who you saw 53 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: on that videotape with al Qaeda just a few days 54 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: ago crowing about September eleven. They have made great strides 55 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: in getting information from these people that have prevented other attacks, 56 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: and by the way, not just prevented attacks here in 57 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: the United States, but prevented attacks in other parts of 58 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: the world too. To have a piece of legislation that 59 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: does not protect them and does not give them a 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: clear legal standard I think is simply wrong. Um, do 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: you find yourself in a in a in an uncomfortable circumstance, 62 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: what with the secretary Eparty leaving aside the apparent lack 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: of loyalty that exists in his letter. Do you find 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: it like I have the New York Senatorial here showdown 65 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: or headline rather show down set between Rice and Powell. 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: Do you think this is descending into something personal? No? No, 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: I don't see it that way. Colin Powell is a 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: private citizen. He can have his views, and I think 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: that's the nature of our great democracy. He's a well 70 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: respected private citizen. It's my responsibility now to help defend 71 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: the United States. It's my responsibility now to defend American 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: policies abroad and to try through diplomacy to make us safer. 73 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: And I am quite confident that UH, the United States 74 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: UH can both get the information that it needs and 75 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: live up to our treaty obligations, and that the legislation 76 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: that the President has proposed does exactly that. At his 77 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: press conference today he introduced something new. UH. Basically, if 78 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: I if I understand it right, the President said, if 79 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: he doesn't get what he wants, if there's not clarity 80 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: defining and specifying the the vagaries and ambiguities of common 81 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: Article three. He said the program will not go forward, 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: and I interpreted that to mean he'll scrap it. And 83 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: he's he's not going to put our professionals as you 84 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: refer to them, in any kind of precarious circumstances if 85 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: they don't go along with what he wants, he'll scrap 86 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: the whole program. And I assume that means the focus 87 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: of attention on the lack of the program existing from 88 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: that point forward will be on Congress. Well, I feel 89 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: very strongly is does the President that these men and 90 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: women who go out and do this, this difficult and 91 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: dangerous work, deserve clarity about the legal ground on which 92 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: they're standing. And uh, I don't think that you will 93 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: get people who will actually participate in this program if 94 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: you don't get that kind of clarity, So you won't 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: have a program. And it would be unfortunate because we 96 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: have learned a lot from this program. We have prevented 97 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: attacks Russia. Information is the long pole in the tent 98 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: in the fight against terrorists. If you wait until a 99 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: terrorists has committed his act, then three thousand people die. 100 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: What you want to do is to prevent them. And 101 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: the only way that you can prevent them is to 102 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: know what they're thinking, to know what they're planning, to 103 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: know what they're plotting. And this program has been essential 104 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: in helping us to find that out. Madam, the Secretary 105 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: of the average American understands this. This is uh, this 106 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: is UH. It's not it's not complicated, and it's that's 107 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: why so many people understand the actions of those in 108 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: the President's party who are attempting to to halt this. 109 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: They're thinking, there's got to be something behind the scenes 110 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: that matters more than just the specific of this. I'm 111 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: not I'm not asking you to address that. I know 112 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: your time is limited, and I have one more question 113 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: for you, and I assure you I'm asking this solely 114 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: from the from the position of wanting to learn and 115 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: wanting to understand. And I want to go back to 116 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: the recent um war between the Hesbalah and Israeli forces. Um. 117 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: It seems that that when it comes to Israel and 118 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: their fight against terrorists, cease fires and resolutions are the 119 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: rule of the day, even though they really haven't worked 120 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: in ceasing these hostilities and bringing about peace. They just 121 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: bring interruptions to it. Yet when we are fighting terrorists, no, 122 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: we don't tell ourselves to cease fire and negotiate with them. 123 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: What what is it about the paradigm of the Middle 124 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: East that requires the fight against terrorism they're befought differently 125 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: than the way we're fighting it against us. Well, I 126 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: would think of it a little a little differently. Rush 127 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: what we What you have there is you have a 128 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: Lebanese government that wants to fight terror, and that is 129 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: the beginnings of a democratic government that could be could 130 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: be actually a partner for Israel in fighting terror. And 131 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: so the ceasefire was really with the Lebanese government, and 132 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: now we're trying to help the Lebanese government deal with 133 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: the effects of a hispola that launched that attack without 134 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: leban and even knowing I think of it the following way. 135 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: We are fighting terror in Iraq, but we're doing it 136 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: with an Iraqi government. We are fighting terror in Afghanistan 137 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: and we're doing it with an Afghan government. So the 138 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: way to think about what happened in Lebanon is that 139 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: we're going to fight terror, but we need to do 140 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: it with a Lebanese government that is devoted to fighting 141 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: terror So um, I think with the from our point 142 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: of view, there isn't any difference. No terrorists can be 143 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: uh supported or understood or negotiated with. What you can 144 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: do is to find moderate governments, moderate leaders in those 145 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: countries that are suffering from terrorism themselves and enlist them 146 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: in the fight to help defeat terrorists. Is Lebanon really 147 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: serious about this? I mean if if if the if 148 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: the Hasbata group was able to attack without even the 149 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: government of Lebanon knowing it, then what good does the 150 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: ceasefire with the government of Lebanon do. Well, you have 151 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: to strengthen that government. It's a weak government and it 152 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: but it is getting stronger. It's finally deployed its military 153 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: forces throughout its whole country for the first time in 154 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: more than three decades. And uh, this is a government 155 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: that came to power when the extremist assassinated the reformist 156 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Lebanon, Rafik Hariri. And so this is 157 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: a government that comes from the right set of values 158 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: and the right set of principles. It's just not not 159 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: very strong. We're trying to help build it up, build 160 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: up its security forces. But when We've done that in 161 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: Lebanon and in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And indeed, if 162 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: we can find that kind of government government in the 163 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: Palestinian territories, having those strong moderate forces to help you 164 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: fight terror, indigenous forces to help you find fight terror 165 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: is extremely important. Okay. So the theory is that terrorists 166 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: will gravitate to UH areas where there are no states, 167 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: where there are no governments, but they like they did 168 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Afghanistan and UH and the and Somalia exactly, and so 169 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: you have you have to build up governments that can 170 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: prevent that from happening. And it's hard. They're allied with us. 171 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: These these are governments, they are allied with us. It's 172 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: it's hard work. They're they're sacrificing to UH. There was 173 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: an attempt on the life of the Deputy Interior Minister 174 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: of of Lebanon just a few days ago, so they're 175 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: sacrificing too. But these are these are really good partners. 176 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: We just have to build them up and help them 177 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: to fight the terrorists in their midst before you go 178 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: are there days you wish that you could have become 179 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: the commissioner the National Football League. I love it that 180 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: you're a football fan. Oh yes, of course they're as 181 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: I wish I could. Oh. Look, I love what I'm doing. Um, 182 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: and it's uh, I'm really lucky to be here at 183 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: this particular point in time. But at some point I'm 184 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: going to want to go to put to one of 185 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: my first loves, which is well, let me there are 186 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: a lot of Americans who are thrilled that you're there too, 187 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: because they understand the battle you have with with a 188 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: lot of career people in the State Department who are 189 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: there before the administration got there. And and uh, you 190 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,599 Speaker 1: bring a comforting staff to a lot of people. But 191 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: the way you conduct yourself in the in the office. 192 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite NFL team or you Well, 193 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: I do. Let me just say Russia. I want you to. 194 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: I just want to say one thing. I really do 195 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: like being secretary. I've got a great team here, a 196 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: great group of people and uh, career and professional. They're 197 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: working hard, and people are serving in places like Baghdad 198 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: and Cobble, sometimes without their family, always without their families. 199 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: They're good folks. But in a in a couple of years, 200 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: I'll be glad to go. And yes, I have a 201 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: favorite NFL team, The Cleveland Browns Cleveland. We'll manage to 202 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: let Reggie Bush have a great rookie the first game. 203 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: What a disappointing season you are headed for. Well, now 204 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: let's just let's just watch it. I'm a I'm a 205 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: Steelers fan. Oh I see anyway, I I appreciate your time. 206 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: We need to have conversations more often. It's very enlightening. 207 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: I like that rush. Let's let's let's let it be 208 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: too long. The next time we'll do that. Thank you 209 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: very much for your time today. Secretary of State Condole 210 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: is A. Rice