WEBVTT - Biden And Xi Meet: Josh Rogin Talks To A&G

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<v Speaker 1>This meeting yesterday actually delivered results for the American people

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<v Speaker 1>and quite frankly, the people of China and people around

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<v Speaker 1>the world. But the American people benefited from this sit

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<v Speaker 1>down together between President She and President Biden's.

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<v Speaker 2>I realize politics gets involved in all this stuff. Like

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<v Speaker 2>Nicki Haley just said, Biden's meeting with President She was embarrassing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you have to the praiseier side or beat

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<v Speaker 2>down the other side. But these meetings with evil dictators

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<v Speaker 2>and the breathy coverage of them, like look at they've

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<v Speaker 2>become friends, and this is paving the way for How

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<v Speaker 2>do you know what are you talking about? Do you

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<v Speaker 2>remember when George Bush said he looked into Putin's soul

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever and saw a good man. How did that

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<v Speaker 2>turn out? President She smiling at Joe Biden's calling him

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<v Speaker 2>old friend is not an indication of anything and all.

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<v Speaker 2>The guy has a million slaves. He took over Hong

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<v Speaker 2>Kong and beat people down in the streets. I'm hearing

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<v Speaker 2>cynicism and anti Chinese bias personally, But perhaps we can

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<v Speaker 2>ask Josh Rogan, global opinions calumnists for The Washington Post

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<v Speaker 2>and author of Chaos Under having Trump sheet in the

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<v Speaker 2>Battle for the twenty first century. Josh, I'm excited about

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<v Speaker 2>this new era of friendship and cooperation, aren't you.

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<v Speaker 3>Man. I hate to be the spoiler. I hate to

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<v Speaker 3>dash all your newly found excitement and you're newly found

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<v Speaker 3>enthusiasm about this new era of great power relations is

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<v Speaker 3>in China, and you know, I think frankly for like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, think, the problem with being a journalist who

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<v Speaker 3>covers China all the time is that, like every once

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<v Speaker 3>in a while, they'll be this moment where ten thousand

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<v Speaker 3>journalists want to write about China and then nine and

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<v Speaker 3>ninety of them have no idea what they're talking about,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you know, they'll so they come up with

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<v Speaker 3>two things like, oh, China good, China bad. And that's

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<v Speaker 3>like as far as you could get. Now, you guys

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<v Speaker 3>are way past that because you've been having me on

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<v Speaker 3>your show for the last five years, so you are

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<v Speaker 3>clued in along with your listeners, by the way, to

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that the truth is that this relationship is

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<v Speaker 3>going one way and that way is down. And that's

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<v Speaker 3>not because there's China Hawks in Washington, and it's not

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<v Speaker 3>because Nikky Haley or Mike POMPEII or even Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 3>or even Joe Biden. It's because Jijingping. It is on

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<v Speaker 3>the order of one of the worst mass murdering totalitarian

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<v Speaker 3>dictators we've seen. And he's doing what they call the

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<v Speaker 3>Great Leap backwards, which is not an opening up, and

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<v Speaker 3>it's just not a reform, which is not a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of the bs that he says that assembled. Did you

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<v Speaker 3>see that dinner with like man like, oh, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you have to pay forty thousand dollars to hear Jijingping

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<v Speaker 3>tell you that everything's okay. And Elon Musk was there,

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<v Speaker 3>and Tim Cook and all these guys just like lining

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<v Speaker 3>up to kiss the emperor's ring. It's gross. It's disgusting

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<v Speaker 3>on a moral and a human level. But it's also

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<v Speaker 3>really stupid because the fact is that you know what's

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<v Speaker 3>going on in China, although we can't really know for sure,

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't look good.

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<v Speaker 2>But Josh, didn't you hear he said he might give

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<v Speaker 2>us some more pandas. I just feel like you're overlooking

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<v Speaker 2>the important parts.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, here's the thing about the pandas, And don't get

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<v Speaker 3>me started on the pandas. Go ahead, I cripe about

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<v Speaker 3>the Pandas. Now, okay, listen those First of all, do

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<v Speaker 3>you know what happened with the pandas. They spread all

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<v Speaker 3>these propaganda and China that we were mistreating the pandas.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't know that.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's this whole For months, there was a one

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<v Speaker 3>of the pandas was sick, not the ones in Washington,

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<v Speaker 3>but in the US. And you know he was getting

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<v Speaker 3>the best care that pandas could possibly get, but he

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<v Speaker 3>still he looked thick, you know. So they spread this

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<v Speaker 3>picture around China, and they convinced the billion Chinese people

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<v Speaker 3>that we were mistreating the pandas. That's why they took

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<v Speaker 3>back the pan They created a crisis inside their own country.

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<v Speaker 3>So that should tell you all you need to know

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<v Speaker 3>about what's going on in Beijing. It's not about us.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not where like where Americans were so solid sistic.

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<v Speaker 3>We think we just have the right policy, if we

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<v Speaker 3>just say the right thing, everything's fine with China. But

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<v Speaker 3>it's really not about us. What's going on in China

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<v Speaker 3>is about China, and it doesn't look good. And this guy,

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<v Speaker 3>she is getting worse and worse. I just think in

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<v Speaker 3>the last months, right, the Farm Minister disappeared, the Defense

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<v Speaker 3>minister disappeared, the former premier drop dead. You know, you've

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<v Speaker 3>got CEOs of major conglomerates falling out of windows an

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<v Speaker 3>unprecedented rate. You know, none of that has anything to

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<v Speaker 3>do with us. That's what happens inside of a crime organization,

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<v Speaker 3>inside of a mafia organization, you're constantly purging the compos

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<v Speaker 3>and you're constantly getting rid of all the rivals, or

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<v Speaker 3>you get murdered. That's how this that's what the CP

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<v Speaker 3>DCP is. It's a it's a crime family, and he's

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<v Speaker 3>the Don Jijing Ping WHI should call him Don Jijing Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>so what do you do with that? Okay? Well, I

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<v Speaker 3>think to be honest about administration is that are not

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<v Speaker 3>crazy the theory of it, which is sort of like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, you try to talk to them and then

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<v Speaker 3>you do a lot of stuff with the allies, which

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<v Speaker 3>makes perfect sense. But then when Joe Biden gets you know,

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<v Speaker 3>in Toronto, to me, just can't help himself be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>he's my friend. I spent eighty six hours traveling with him.

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<v Speaker 3>Is not true, by the way he always says this,

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<v Speaker 3>He's like, oh, we he spent seventeen thousand miles. It

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<v Speaker 3>was like a thousand miles. He's like ninety one hours

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<v Speaker 3>we spent together. It's like five. There's this famous story

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<v Speaker 3>that Joe Biden always tells about him as usually, he

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<v Speaker 3>told it again this week. He was like, we were

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<v Speaker 3>standing on the edge of the Tibetan plata. Joe Biden's

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<v Speaker 3>never been to the Tibetan plato.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, wow, all right, you know before you go any further,

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<v Speaker 2>because we read your recent column and it's terrific as usual.

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<v Speaker 2>But I can accept, having been into this sort of

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<v Speaker 2>thing for like my entire adult life, that there is

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<v Speaker 2>a certain naivete and almost Stockholm syndrome me battered spouse

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<v Speaker 2>syndrome among the American people. We're convinced if we just

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<v Speaker 2>are good to them or nice to them or generous

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<v Speaker 2>to them, they'll stop hitting us, essentially, or they'll become

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<v Speaker 2>a good cooperative country. I get that. I can accept

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<v Speaker 2>that people have their lives, they're not up on this stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But if the president in the United States actually believes

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<v Speaker 2>his own bull crap, like the stories you're just describing,

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<v Speaker 2>that's awful. Do you have any sense of is that

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<v Speaker 2>just old Jo Scranton Joe spinning yarns or do you

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<v Speaker 2>think he believes that stuff?

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<v Speaker 3>A little and a little from Columbee? You know, I

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<v Speaker 3>think you know. But here's the thing, here's the crazy thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Every president does that. Every president I've been a journalist

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<v Speaker 3>for twenty years, every single one, George H. W. Bush,

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<v Speaker 3>Bill Clinton, Obama, Trump, Biden, they all thought they could

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<v Speaker 3>charm the dictators. Okay, they all think they're dictator charmers.

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<v Speaker 3>With Putin too, by the way, Obama did the reset

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<v Speaker 3>and Trump wanted to meet with Putin, and Biden was

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<v Speaker 3>trying to do a reset. But then they invented Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's this. You're right, it's like a nice thing

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<v Speaker 3>about Americans that we think, if we're just charmed these dictators,

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<v Speaker 3>we're gonna convince them that they shouldn't be dictators anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's like Lucy in the football, you know, and

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<v Speaker 3>we just keep going, We just keep falling for it.

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<v Speaker 3>We just keep falling for it, you know. Esventually we've

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<v Speaker 3>got to realize that, you know, psychopathic, genocidal, murder as murdering, totalitarian,

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<v Speaker 3>aggressive dictators probably not going to change their stripes. They've

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<v Speaker 3>made their call on what they're going to be you

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<v Speaker 3>know what I mean, And we just have to deal

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<v Speaker 3>with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Where are you on the likelihood? Because if I'm president,

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<v Speaker 2>she and I actually am planning to invade Taiwan at

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<v Speaker 2>some point, I'm going to do it while Joe Biden

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<v Speaker 2>is still president because he's an old man with a

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<v Speaker 2>party with a lot of problems. Why wouldn't you do

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<v Speaker 2>it now?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, he's not ready now, so that's one problem. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>you need to keep preparing, you know. That's why people

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<v Speaker 3>say twenty twenty seven. And I don't think that's like

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<v Speaker 3>any sort of magical date. I just think that's like

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<v Speaker 3>kind of around when he'll be ready. Needs the invasion

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<v Speaker 3>for us, needs the economic independence. You know, there's stockpiling food.

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<v Speaker 3>Why are they doing that? There's stockpiling food and fuel

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<v Speaker 3>all over China. And then he needs the nuclear deterrent

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<v Speaker 3>to keep US at bay, which they're building a thousand

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<v Speaker 3>nuclear weapons. Why are they doing that? I thought we

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<v Speaker 3>just had a nice meeting. You're still building a thousand

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<v Speaker 3>of nuclear weapons. Didn't we have a nice meeting? You know?

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<v Speaker 3>So one thing is they're not ready. Second thing is

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<v Speaker 3>there's something going on in Taiwan. We'd ever talk about,

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<v Speaker 3>which is that, Like they're going to have this big

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<v Speaker 3>election in January. You know, if they elect the pro

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<v Speaker 3>Chinese side, which could happen, by the way, then that

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<v Speaker 3>could change his calculus. He's gonna wait to see what

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<v Speaker 3>happens in Ukraine, if we have the sticking power there

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<v Speaker 3>or not. So I mean, I think like invasion is

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<v Speaker 3>like probably his last resort. Maybe he could take Taiwan

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<v Speaker 3>without invading. Wouldn't you rather do that if you were him?

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, I think he's going to take Taiwan

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<v Speaker 3>one way or the other. But if you can get

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<v Speaker 3>it without the war, I think he's going to try

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<v Speaker 3>that first, to be honest.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Yeah, honestly, I've been reading a bit about the

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<v Speaker 2>opposition party and how warned they are to China and

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<v Speaker 2>how they're ahead in the polls, and so we'll have

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<v Speaker 2>to watch that. But China is also facing some pretty

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<v Speaker 2>serious economic headwinds, not all of a sudden, but that

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<v Speaker 2>nobody was talking about a year or two ago. Josh,

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<v Speaker 2>how signif do you think that is right?

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<v Speaker 3>No, I think it's really significant, and I think but

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<v Speaker 3>I think people draw the wrong conclusion. You know, people

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<v Speaker 3>in Washington they're like, oh, China's having problems economically, that

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<v Speaker 3>means we don't have to do anything. They can go

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<v Speaker 3>back to sleep. They're just going to collapse under their

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<v Speaker 3>own weight. That's what you you know, the pro China

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<v Speaker 3>people and watching that say, they're like, oh, they're not

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<v Speaker 3>ten feet tall, they're only six feet tall, so we

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<v Speaker 3>can all go back to sleep. It's fine. And what

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<v Speaker 3>I say is that, no, actually, when Jijingping it doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>have that economic you know, benefit to show his people

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<v Speaker 3>to bolster his legitimacy, that's when he is going to

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<v Speaker 3>get more aggressive externally. He's got to blame that on

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<v Speaker 3>somebody that's us. So actually he gets more dangerous the

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<v Speaker 3>worst their economy, that's not less dangerous. That's what I

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<v Speaker 3>think again, based on everything we know about every dictator. Ever.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm watching some of the coverage on the cable

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<v Speaker 2>news and they're talking about as you see Joe Biden

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<v Speaker 2>and Jijingping walking through the garden looks like the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of a friendship and a thawing. I mean, how do

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<v Speaker 2>you react to that sort of commentary?

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<v Speaker 3>It's really I mean, it's really good for choosing thing.

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<v Speaker 3>That's exactly what he needed, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 3>He's like, you know, facing a lot of trouble at home.

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<v Speaker 3>Imagine you're inside the Chinese system and you're looking at

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<v Speaker 3>this mass economic mass COVID all of that stuff. You're

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<v Speaker 3>looking at Using Thing like, dude, you know, you better

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<v Speaker 3>get your act together. So then he's like, you know

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<v Speaker 3>what would really be good is oh, maybe I can

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<v Speaker 3>get like, you know, some really great pictures of all

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<v Speaker 3>of the world's leaders, you know, telling me I'm the

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<v Speaker 3>cast me out. That's exactly what he got. So we

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<v Speaker 3>know what Using Thing got from this. Meaning I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know what we got. Resumption of communication is really not

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<v Speaker 3>a thing that we should be like, you know, really celebrating.

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<v Speaker 3>That's that should be like the minimum. I think, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know, maybe I'm crity.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I saw you write that, and I agreed. Touting

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that they're now willing to take our phone calls. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that is like the minimum requirement of a friendship. And

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<v Speaker 2>they then they and then and then they haven't done

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<v Speaker 2>it yet. They've just said they would in the future,

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<v Speaker 2>So no guarantee they will still take our phone calls.

0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Josh Rogan's The Global Opinions calling this for The Washington Post.

0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Go ahead, Josh, if.

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<v Speaker 3>You were my best friend for twenty five years, I

0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:07.560
<v Speaker 3>would hope you would take my phone call, but you

0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.320
<v Speaker 3>didn't answer by his phone call for a year. A friend?

0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Is that right?

0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.520
<v Speaker 3>Friends like that these enemies? Yeah.

0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.640
<v Speaker 2>So my final question, it's a sprawling one, and you

0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.680
<v Speaker 2>could write not one, but to multiple books on the topic,

0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:25.120
<v Speaker 2>is how goes the great decoupling or disentangling of the economies?

0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.440
<v Speaker 3>You know it goes? You know, I think, like you know,

0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.199
<v Speaker 3>in the end, we're gonna have to figure out what

0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.559
<v Speaker 3>we have to decouple and what we don't have to

0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:36.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, like if you want to talk about like

0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.360
<v Speaker 3>toys and bicycles, I don't think we need to decouple

0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.680
<v Speaker 3>from toys and bicycles, you know, if they want to.

0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.120
<v Speaker 3>You know, Manu put a bunch of Mariotte hotels in China.

0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm okay with that. But when it comes to the AI,

0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.079
<v Speaker 3>to the nuclear secrets and to the top silicon chips

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.960
<v Speaker 3>into the things that make our missiles, you know, missiles, no,

0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.079
<v Speaker 3>we're gonna have to decouple from that. When it comes

0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.800
<v Speaker 3>to masks, I guess we're going to need our own

0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 3>masks because it's give me another pandemic. And then what

0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.280
<v Speaker 3>we really need to de couple of guys is the money.

0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.480
<v Speaker 3>We need to stop having our Wall Street firms send

0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.520
<v Speaker 3>our retirement funds, our pension funds into the hands of

0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.319
<v Speaker 3>the companies that are building the machines that's pointed against us.

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 3>That's the crazy part of the decoupling that we can't

0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.800
<v Speaker 3>get around to, which is the fact that Wall Street

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.839
<v Speaker 3>firms and their bosses, who were all paid forty thousand

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 3>dollars to clap and do standing ovations for Jiji thing

0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 3>last night, they're all taking your money, your savings, your

0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 3>retirement and they're investigating companies that are committing atrocities and

0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.480
<v Speaker 3>building the military. That's we're pointed right at us, and

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.720
<v Speaker 3>that seems crazy. So, I mean, you know, you're right,

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.679
<v Speaker 3>that's going to have to build another book, if not

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:45.440
<v Speaker 3>a whole nother show.

0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>And we could be talking about TikTok as well. We

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.600
<v Speaker 2>were earlier on the show. The fact that we let

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 2>the communists Chinese at least in some measure, control the

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 2>number one news source for our young it's a suicidal,

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 2>you know thing. We're engaged, but it's unbelievable we'll talk

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>about that more another time, Josh, I hope you can

0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.960
<v Speaker 2>come on and chat again soon anytime. All right, thanks

0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.160
<v Speaker 2>a million. How good was that? Armstrong and Yetty