1 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up a weekly markets podcast. 2 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan, and I'm a senior editor 3 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg enumbled On Across asset reporter at Bloomberg, and 4 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: this week on the show, Well, if you still think 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: that cryptocurrencies are on the fringe, consider this stat A 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: recent survey from Fidelity found that more than half of 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: institutional investors in Asia, Europe and the US already invest 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: in digital assets and expect to invest in them in 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: the future. So we're gonna talk about what that means 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: for the asset class with the head of asset management 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: at one of the biggest firms in the crypto investing world. 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: But fill down. I think this is the portion of 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: a podcast where traditionally the hosts engage in some witty 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: banner back and forth. You know, it's almost never witty, 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: almost never. You don't almost them. I want to better 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: about while you never read the scripted intros I write 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: for you because I don't like to. I'm supposed to 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: say I'm Mike Reagan and you go and I'm Dana Banana. 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: Oh those are really really good. You've you've been writing 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: me really really good introductions. I've just been totally ignoring them. 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: I think last week it was I'm Madonna, right, and 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: then this week it was banana fan of a fan, 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: Total opportunities. Yeah, you had something else to banner about. 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: I think what was it? I did because we got 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,279 Speaker 1: this really witty tweet you and I did from Tweegy Sunday, 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: one of our our fans on Twitter, and uh he 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: or or she? I suppose because the profile pictures is 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: a doggie. Um, it says craziest thing I saw in 29 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: supermarkets this week and it's the cover of People magazine 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: and it's Paul Rodd sexiest man Alive. You know, I 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: don't know how I feel about opening the craziest things 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: in markets up to supermarkets that supermarket. No, I love it, 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: since it's Twiggy Sunday, as you said, a listener from 34 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: day one will allow it. But I don't know. I 35 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: don't know if we want to go down in that 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. I love it. I I I'm all for it, 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: and I want to open it up to others who 38 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: have seen something crazy in any market, including the supermarket. 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: So um. You know, we close out the show typically 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: with the craziest thing we saw in markets. If you 41 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: guys saw anything, give us a call at our hotline. 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: It's six four six three two four three four nine zero. 43 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: Leave us a voicemail and maybe we'll play it on 44 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: the show and then you can also hit me and 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: my careaging up on Twitter as well. Although needs to 46 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: tweet at us about what's so crazy about all Ruddby 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: in the sexiest man in the world. I don't know, 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: is it's not true? Right? Sorry Paul rod fans. Anyway, 49 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: enough crazy things. We have a lot to talk about 50 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: with our With our guest this week, it's Steve Kurtz. 51 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: He's the global head of asset management at Galaxy Digital. Steve, 52 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: welcome to the show and thanks so much for joining us. Well, 53 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: thank you both, And my life mission is now to 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: help work some crypto Twitter banter into your show going forward. 55 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: That would be that would be really really great. But 56 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: maybe just to to start us out, Galaxy is a 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: really big name in the crypto world, as Mike said 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: in your introduction, So maybe you can just set up 59 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: for our listeners what Galaxy is and what your job 60 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: is at the company. Yeah. Sure, Well, it's been four 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: years since we started Galaxy and it was. It was 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: eight people, uh with with Mike Novigrats leading the charge 63 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: in and we had this uh, this idea, um that 64 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: what had been a retail phenomenon, right, crypto started as 65 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: a retail um uh phenomenon, like I said, And we 66 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: thought for this really to grow into what it was 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: able to grow into, we would have to have um 68 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: all kinds of developments on the institutional side. And that 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: was a little antithetical to the crypto community and in 70 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: a way the crypto ethos, but it was really important 71 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: to us, having worked on the traditional side of finance, 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: to help the space sort of grow up and really 73 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: to be the translation mechanism between crypto and the institutional world. 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: And so we thought we had a unique ability to 75 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: build a company that looks a little bit like Goldman Sachs, 76 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: although uh, you know that that's a that's a mental 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: model that again is not so crypto cool, I would say. 78 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: And so we built out you know, trading as a 79 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: as a as a client business. We built out investment banking, 80 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: principal mining business, a principal investments business. And the business 81 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: that I've been leading for the last four years is 82 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: the asset management business. And so the consistent thread across 83 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: all that is a real need for education and working 84 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: with the regulators and you know, doing things the right 85 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: way as good sort of corporate citizens. Uh, and in 86 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: so doing move the crypto phenomenon into the mainstream. Steve, 87 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: let's get unpack a little bit about the asset management business. 88 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: Uh latest number I saw three point two billion. Wow, 89 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: it's uh nice little chunk of change you got you 90 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: got under management there. UM, we're working on it and uh, 91 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: you know obviously uh, you know, maybe you can unpack 92 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: it for as a little bit. A big chunk of 93 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: that I think is in the index type of funds 94 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: and you know, full disclosure, Bloomberg does partner with Galaxy 95 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: on creating the index is uh, And I want to 96 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: get back to the indexes, but I'm kind of fascinated with, 97 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: um the other portion of it, which is the fund 98 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: of funds um where you guys sort of identify, you know, 99 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: more active management type of funds UM. Talking to us 100 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: a little bit about that portion. UM. It was an 101 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: acquisition right, uh, that you guys made in the active 102 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: fund business. Talk us a little bit about that sort 103 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: of what how the fund of fund business works? UM, 104 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: do you look for in other funds to invest in 105 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Yeah. Sure, so we we 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: acquired UM Galaxies asset management business acquired Vision Hill in 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: May of this year. And and Vision Hill is run 108 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: by two wonderful, brilliant guys, Danzela and Scott Army. And 109 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: for the last three years before that they had been 110 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: building a database and real connectivity to the crypto funds 111 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: all around the world, passive funds, hedge funds, venture funds, 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: and UM. You know, when you think about the need 113 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: for a fund of funds, what does the fund of 114 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: funds do? It wraps a number of different fund investments 115 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: under one vehicle. UM. In the traditional world, Uh, maybe 116 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: Blackstone would argue with me, but you you would look 117 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: at that and say, well, why do you need that 118 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: model when people can go find their own managers themselves. Um, 119 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: that's true. Twenty years later, I would analogize the crypto 120 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: funds space too, very similar to the hedge funds space. 121 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: In the early two thousands, there are eight and fifty funds. 122 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: It's a shocking statistic that people don't understand the breadth 123 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: and scope of that. And they're divided out in many 124 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: different ways and when you go to a pension, or 125 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: you go to an endowment, or you go to a 126 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: sovereign wealth fund, and they say, great, we believe in 127 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: the crypto future. We believe in with web three. What 128 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: do we do now? Uh, okay, you can buy bitcoin, 129 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: you can buy ethereum, maybe you can buy a venture fund, 130 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: but what else is there? And and intuitively they really 131 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: go to hedge funds because it's kind of an alternative asset. 132 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: And then they say, well, wait, who are the big 133 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: hedge fund players? And the answer is there really aren't 134 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: big hedge fund players. There are a handful that have 135 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: reached some escape velocity, a couple hundred million here or there, 136 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: but how can someone put two million dollars into that? 137 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: They can't do that. So it was a real pain 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: point for large institutions to access this more active body 139 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: of the asset class um. And we we just felt 140 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: that it was really part of our mission, which is 141 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: both education and access, to give that tool in the toolkit. 142 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: And a big part of that is not just the 143 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: access vehicles, it's really defining who those funds are. What 144 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: do we look for? Um, Well, no one's really done 145 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: great operational due diligence in the space until until we've 146 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: come to the market with these vehicles. So we look 147 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: for great entrepreneurs, talented entrepreneurs who have built good fund 148 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: management businesses, and then on the back end, UM we 149 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: look for really robust, thoughtful approaches that can scale, that 150 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: our regulatory compliant and that meet a set of standards 151 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: that were in the process of helping sort of define 152 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: for the asset class. So the same way that we 153 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 1: do indexing with Bloomberg on the passive side, this hedge 154 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: fund of funds model, both through indices and through great 155 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: data and setting of standards UM is really important to 156 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: more money coming into the space, more talented traders and 157 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: financial services professionals coming to the space, and ultimately much 158 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: bigger a u M s for all of those underlying 159 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: fund managers. We think. And then just to break down 160 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more of what you guys do, I 161 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: think Galaxy also has a mining business. Correct me if 162 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But maybe you can just break down a 163 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: little bit like what those internally conversations are like for 164 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: you guys. Considering how much in the news, like the 165 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: environmental aspect of all of this has been recently, it's 166 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: a great question, and we we do have We have 167 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: a mining business that's run by a fidelity alumna Amanda Fabriano, 168 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: one of the one of the most brilliant bitcoin mining 169 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: minds out there, and that's part of our principal investing business. 170 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: We've got a large balance sheet that does a number 171 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: of investments and so UM, you know, we're very as 172 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: you say, involved in this UM, this question of E. 173 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: S G and Bitcoin, And I don't think at all 174 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: as a starting point that having passion for UH the 175 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: environment is inconsistent with bitcoin. UM. What happened in May 176 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: really of this year was that bitcoin started to grow 177 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: up as a macro asset, right it hit a trillion 178 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: in UH in overall market cap, and then the kitchen 179 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: sink of macro problems were thrown at bitcoin China band UH. 180 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: You know E s G regulatory and for bitcoin to 181 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: become a five trillion dollar asset, it needs to not 182 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: only meet those questions, but have good answers to those questions. 183 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: And so E s G was a big part of that. 184 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: UM when when you look under the hood, UH, a 185 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: lot of those initial arguments were somewhat flimsy, and I 186 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: think you have to start with. Before you say how 187 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: much energy can something, uh should something utilize, you have 188 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: to agree that it's worth something. So the first question 189 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: is why is bitcoin valuable to the world. And once 190 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: we agree on that, then you can talk about the 191 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: energy aspect. You know, we've been really active. We've got 192 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: an E S G working group across the firm, uh 193 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: that's continuing to evolve. We were an active founding part 194 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: of the Bitcoin Mining Council, and our mission is actually 195 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: to make bitcoin green much faster than all of these goals. Uh. 196 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: You know that we're hearing broadly. Um, we think that, 197 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: for instance, the ability for bitcoin to utilize renewables is 198 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: a huge and accelerating piece of the pie. Um. We 199 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, oftentimes bitcoin is using energy 200 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: that's actually already being wasted by the grid. So yes, 201 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: it's you energy, but that's not net new energy. And 202 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: so but we put out a piece from this research 203 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: group that um that sort of estimates I think it 204 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: was around bitcoin is already uh mind using green sources, 205 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: and that number is going to accelerate very quickly. So 206 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: I think when you look back on this in five years, 207 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: given how much brain power is being focused on that 208 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: exact issue, You're actually gonna look to bitcoin and say, wow, 209 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: that was a great case study for other industries to 210 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: accelerate the adoption of green technologies and becoming fully green. 211 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: You know, Steve, I wanna get back to the the 212 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: passive index funds a little bit too. Um. You know, obviously, 213 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, one of the appeals of UH indexing is 214 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: you get diversity. You know, Uh, it's kind of tricky, 215 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: uh in the crypto world, considering that Ether and Bitcoin 216 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: are just so huge compared to everyone else. And I 217 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: was looking at the the the one index fund and 218 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: it's you know, you cap the holdings at or the 219 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: weights at of each you know, so it's Bitcoin ethereum 220 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: and then and then the other ones make up the balance. 221 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: And in the defy index you're you know about of 222 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: the unit swap token. So I just I'm curious where 223 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: you see that going forward. I mean, will the do 224 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: you think the other coins will catch up to the 225 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: point where you know it will naturally bring down those 226 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: waitings um or you know, is there a case to 227 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: be made for sort of an equal weighted crypto fund. 228 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: Do you think it's a great question? And look at 229 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: for for us UM. We were privileged to start working 230 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: with Bloomberg and when I think, um, you know, crypto 231 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: was in a very different place and that was a 232 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: really important part of the puzzle. In our opinion, indusicries 233 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: are important for a million different reasons, but with a 234 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: new asset class, it's as much about the taxonomy and 235 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: defining that taxonomy as it is anything else. UM. The 236 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: one thing that is uh, you know, very consistent and 237 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: different than other indicries is that cap. UM. You know, 238 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: We've got members of the team that have spent their 239 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: careers in the et F space, and what we really 240 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: wanted to focus on over time was the growth of 241 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: the asset class. And our view was, if you want 242 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: Bitcoin exposure, or if you want a Theorum exposure or 243 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: any single asset exposure, you can go to other places, 244 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: including our single asset vehicles. You don't need to go 245 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: to an index to do that for you for that exposure, 246 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: and we felt that UM, the way to facilitate the 247 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: growth of the space was really to set that cap 248 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: and then really start to educate around forget the waitings 249 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: for now really educate the verticals. And so Bitcoin is 250 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: digital goal thetheroreum is web three right defy as an 251 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: entire construct n f T s UH and so um 252 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: I expect to answer your question that you will have 253 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: a number of very large assets in crypto in our 254 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: large cap index. It is difficult at the moment to 255 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: see how something could compete with a five billion dollar 256 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: market cap and ethereum or a trillion plus in bitcoin. 257 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: But look at how quickly we've seen aspects of the 258 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: space grow. We've got over a hundred billion total lock 259 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: value and defy in less than a year. So we 260 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: just don't know. And anyone who says they know, I 261 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: think is is uh either confused or or or telling 262 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: a story. Uh. You know, you look at something like 263 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: Salana and you could see an ETH competitor come into 264 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: that index at one point and be a really sizeable 265 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: chunk of the index as well. And so our expectation 266 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: not in a month or in a year, but over 267 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: a cycle five ten years, which is an eternity in crypto, 268 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: is that like an accordy and you're gonna have uh 269 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: fewer and then more constituents of the index, and then 270 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: over time you're gonna have different competitive dynamics within the 271 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: index within different verticals of the index, and what will 272 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: be really cool is when we can start to subdivide 273 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: and have a different sub indicries, kind of like the 274 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: Defy index that we launched with Bloomberg in August. So 275 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: you just mentioned having a lot of e t F 276 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: player is working with you, And obviously the big news 277 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: recently has been the launch of the Bitcoin Futures ETFs. 278 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: I was looking at some of the notes that, uh, 279 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: some of the research that you had done recently, and 280 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: you said in order for digital assets to continue to flourish, 281 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: they must be accessible to all investors, but that the 282 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: launch of the futures ETFs concerns you and I want 283 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: to I wanted to ask you why why that is? Yeah, Look, 284 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: it's it's a nuanced um. It's a nuanced discussion, and 285 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: I think on some levels as a crypto company, Galaxy 286 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: looks at something like this from the SEC uh favorably, Right. 287 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: It's it's important that there's an engagement and that there 288 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: is for the first time, you know, this regulated public 289 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: fund construct that's available in the United States. So as 290 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: at a broad level, we think that's progress and we 291 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: applaud the regulators for that. And we think it's another 292 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: in many recent developments around not the cool stuff that's 293 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: on crypto Twitter, but the guts of the market and 294 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: the actual infrastructure that's being built around the markets that's 295 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: really foundational. So so that's great. Um, when you when 296 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: you look under the hood as a fiduciary business, so 297 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: now not with the galaxy crypto had on, but with 298 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: the galaxy asset management had on, and you think about um, 299 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: something like USO. Uh you know, and I think you 300 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: might have talked about this on a recent podcast. You know, 301 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: the role dynamic is a real issue. And when you 302 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: when you bring new participants to a new market in 303 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: a volatile asset that's already enough you don't need to 304 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: have structural uh questions on top of that, like leverage, 305 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: which is obviously a feature of of the products that 306 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: are that are approved and out there. And it reminds 307 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: me a little bit of the trust structure. Uh. You know, 308 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: we chose not to do a trust structure for bitcoin access, 309 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: just like we're choosing at the moment not to engage 310 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: with the futures product. You know, the tracking relative to 311 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: bitcoin hasn't been great. That doesn't mean that a company 312 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: like gray scale isn't very important for the space. When 313 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: when when the market really needed something like that, just 314 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: like the market needs the futures et F right now. 315 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: But I would call that more of a trading vehicle 316 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to an investor retail vehicle. And so we're 317 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: focusing on the spottyt F and putting all our energy 318 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: into that project in partnership with Investco. All Right, Steve, 319 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: I got a multi part question for you, and Vilton 320 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: is gonna give me a hard time about that, probably 321 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: as she always does this. This is trademark. Well, if 322 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: I thought I was listening you ever heard of the 323 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: smart List podcast with Jason Bateman and um uh Will Arnett. 324 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: Uh He Jason Bateman asks like three minute questions. So 325 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: I think I think I'm onto something here. I think 326 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: this is the way it's done. To me, Steve, it's 327 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: been fascinating watching over recent years sort of the evolution 328 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: of traditional finance. Uh. And that's sort of the big 329 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: bold face names of the banking world. In the way 330 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: they talk about crypto. You know, it sort of went 331 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: from all they roll the rise at it. You know 332 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: that this is digital toolips five years ago too. Well, 333 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: we're kind of warming up to it now. So okay, 334 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: we're diving in know with two feet now. Um. So 335 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: so part of of the question is, know, what are 336 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: your conversations like with the institutions, Um, you know, what 337 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of allocations are are sort of typical for say, 338 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: I don't know a pension or we're an endowment. What 339 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: kind of allocations are they looking at? And the one 340 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: person who keeps whose evolution of thought on this topic 341 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: to me that's really fascinating is Ken Griffin of Citadel. 342 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: You know he uh, he's he's warming up. You can 343 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: tell he's warming up to it. Um, he's still a 344 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: little uneasy about it. And one of his some of 345 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: his recent comments were like, I just don't know how 346 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: to value this, you know, other than um, it's worth 347 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: whatever the next person is willing to pay for. We're 348 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: so hopefully that's not too much for you there. But 349 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: if you can answer my questions and and Ken Griffin's questions, 350 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, uh, what's the sort of climate among the 351 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: institutional investors, what kind of allocations are they thinking about? 352 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: And how do you what would you say to Ken 353 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: Griffin if you if you got him in the elevator 354 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: and he said, how how do I value this stuff? Uh? Great, 355 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: I'll try not to answer the last question first because 356 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: then I'll go down the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole, 357 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: but uh, why don't I start with it? So, first 358 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: of all, when you mentioned the banks, I I worked 359 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: at a bank. It was called Lehman Brothers. Uh it didn't. 360 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, well we'll spare my leaving story for now. 361 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: But uh, I empathize a bit. It's there. There's there's 362 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: what there's what you can do. There's what you want 363 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: to do. There's what your your clients are asking you 364 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: to do. There's committees. It's just it's a complicated process 365 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: that necessarily is going to take time. But I think 366 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: that they're getting there when you look at the institutional 367 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: allocators first of all, hunter trillion dollar plus market globally. Uh, 368 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: you know a number of of necessary structural impediments to 369 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: doing anything different in place, whether it's the investment committees 370 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: or the consultants or the O D D work. Uh. 371 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: And so really, uh, you can't fake it with this crowd, 372 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: nor should you try. And so for the last four years, 373 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: why do we focus on indexing first? And then we 374 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: literally treated service providers like Deloyd, like clients, we had 375 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: forty meetings with them before we would have them as 376 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: they would have us as as their auditor for our 377 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: fund for our for our crypto funds, And you needed 378 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: all those pieces in line before you could even have 379 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: a credible conversation. So a lot of that between the 380 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: period of time when crypto was down where we are 381 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: today was happening behind the scenes. The conversations, the product 382 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: structure is being developed. Uh, even sort of the valuation 383 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: frameworks we're being tooled around with a little bit so 384 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: that when you came out of this and the world 385 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: exploded and had a catalyst for crypto to really matter, 386 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: which we can talk about and which is covid um, 387 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: you're not starting from zero. In every single institution that 388 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: you can think of, in every vertical, they have people 389 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: who have done work on this. It's been socialized with 390 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: their committees, and they're much further along than than you 391 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: would expect. Um. As an example, there's a there's an 392 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: endowment that we spoke with recently and I'll not say 393 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: their name obviously, uh that actually has now six percent 394 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: crypto exposure because the bet has done so well over 395 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: the last few years. And so that's a whole different 396 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: risk management challenge. Um for those who haven't participated yet, 397 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons why they haven't, but there's 398 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: a real pull for them to now make that step. 399 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: And the reason is that cryptos now a three trillion 400 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: dollar asset class. If wealth broadly is fo fifty trillion, 401 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: the index for crypto is now sixty or seventy basis points. 402 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: So if you're at zero, you're actually short the crypto 403 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: participation in the global economy, and that no choice is 404 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: a choice. One of the hardest things for these institutions 405 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: is that crypto goes up and then you feel like 406 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: you're buying at the highs and it's gonna mean revert 407 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: and you're an idiot if if that to your to 408 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: your committee. If crypto goes down where you thought you'd 409 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: buy the dip, actually you feel like it's going away forever, 410 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: so you don't have the conviction to buy it, and 411 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: you end up getting stuck in the middle. And that 412 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: has been the problem over the last two years for 413 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: some of these pensions. I was in a spirited debate 414 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: two nights ago at dinner where a couple of very 415 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: large pensions were saying, if only we had a bucket, right, 416 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: we don't have a bucket for crypto. How do we 417 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: do this, Where do we put it, how do we 418 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: think about it? We want to do it? And so 419 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: they're almost begging for someone to step in and say, 420 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: you know what, this is the index. This is the benchmark. 421 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: Bitcoin goes in a hard asset bucket. Ethereum and the 422 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: future of the Internet probably go in a venture bucket. 423 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: Defined maybe goes in an equity bucket because it's it's 424 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: competing with traditional finance in a way. And so you 425 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: really have to take these mental models, uh and and 426 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: and try to make it sound like something that already exists, 427 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: because that's the only way that you're gonna get to 428 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: the bucket. You don't get new buckets by going and 429 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: pitching the committee and saying, I think we should have 430 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: a crypto bucket. You have to get off of zero, 431 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: you have to have trusted partners to do that. You 432 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: have to have use cases that make sense, and then 433 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: you grow into the asset class. And when that happens, 434 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: you're gonna see the really big dollars start to come in. 435 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: I think is gonna be a seismic gear for those 436 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: dollars coming in. I didn't hit the Ken Griffin. I 437 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: don't know if there's anything in that aspect that you 438 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: want to elaborate on, but I'm happy to go into 439 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: the cana as well. Some of these institutional players have 440 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: been making the argument that bitcoin is a hedge against inflation, 441 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: and this is a topic that actually has just come 442 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: back quite a bit more recently, just because we are 443 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of these hotter than expected inflationary prints. 444 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering what you make of that theory, because 445 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, I spoke with Cam Harvey at Duke and 446 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: and he has been doing this long term research on 447 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: gold and bitcoin, and he's sort of his argument is, well, 448 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: the history is just not long enough to to to 449 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: say definitively that bitcoin is an inflation hedge. So I'm 450 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: wondering what you make of that. Well, that's true, um, 451 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: you know the history from but but time is not 452 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: necessarily the right metric in an exponential age, right, These 453 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: are these are networks and there's a generational turnover that 454 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: that's happening, and bitcoin's the top five holding for millennials. 455 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: So I respect the track record of gold. I don't 456 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: have anything negative to say about gold. I do think 457 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: that it's interesting that UM gold is down two percent 458 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: year to date and bitcoins up, and I don't think 459 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: that's an accident. I think that UM, as Paul Tutor 460 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: Jones said in May ofwy in his piece, bitcoin is 461 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: the fastest force in this inflation race. Inflation is obviously 462 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: a problem, and it's particularly a problem if you're uh, 463 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: in the unfortunate situation where you're poor, or if you're young. 464 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: And so I think cryptos are response to that. That's 465 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: that's systemically different. UM Bitcoin has all the characteristics of 466 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: a hard asset and of digital gold. Obviously, it has 467 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: a provably, verifiably scarce number of bitcoin. No one can 468 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: ever change that. Only twenty one million will ever be mind, 469 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: even gold has a supply response. If gold goes to 470 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: you know, five thousand or ten thousand dollars an ounce, Uh, 471 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: maybe we won't be mining asteroids for gold the way 472 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: Elon said, but will certainly be going into the cbed 473 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: or at other places where we know there's gold at 474 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: higher prices. There's no mechanism, there's no supply mechanism for 475 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: bitcoin by which you could do that. So I think 476 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: it has all the properties of of of a macro hedge, 477 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: of an inflation hedge, and I think the market is 478 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: speaking very loudly on this. What's interesting is that it's 479 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: not just a macro hedge, it's also a growth asset 480 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: because of the adoption curve. So what I think that 481 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: does for a portfolio is you also can play offense. 482 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: If gold is a defensive hedge against inflation, Bitcoin is 483 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: that hedge in addition to being like a tech growth stock, 484 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: because we're so early in the adoption cycle. So it's 485 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: very rare that you get both of those in one 486 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: asset um at a time where the market is valuing 487 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: both of those themes separately. And I think that's why 488 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: you've seen that explosion of bitcoin. Steve, let me get 489 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: one more and then I think, then when I think 490 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: we got to go to the crazy things uh as 491 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: his ar actrition. You know, when you think about you know, 492 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: Galaxy's role as sort of one of the one of 493 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: the leaders and indexing in crypto, you know, I'm thinking 494 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: back to how long it took Tesla to get into 495 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: the SMP five, and you know how they're there's certain 496 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: criteria that it it didn't meet until it's market cap 497 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: had just become enormous UM, so it really came into 498 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: the index with with full force, you know, with a 499 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: with a big thud. And I'm wondering what, you know, 500 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: how would you view something um, say like a doge 501 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: coin or a sheba you know, you know that that 502 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, just from pure momentum, suddenly is one of 503 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: the biggest cryptos. I mean, is there a role for 504 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: you guys to sort of, you know, be a gatekeeper? 505 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: And I hate to pick on those two, you know, 506 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: I I honestly I already have the the Sheba, you know, 507 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: tweet storm. People are already after me about something else, 508 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: so I don't I don't want to pick on them. 509 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: But but just that notion of you know, you know, 510 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: how how do you do do you know, how do 511 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: you sort of protect the integrity of the index or 512 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: is it is that not your role as a as 513 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: an index provider? No, it's our role. It is our 514 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: It is our role. And I think you know, the 515 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: rules fit together like pieces of a puzzle, and it's 516 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's regulated exchanges and and there's you know, 517 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a consistency in terms of how 518 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: long something has to be at a certain size, and 519 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: volumes and and all kinds of things that I think 520 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: sort of naturally sort out what you described as as 521 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: much as I also uh laugh at at some of 522 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: those coins you mentioned. What I think is really important 523 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: and it's separate from the Ken Griffin question. Right. If 524 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: I'm answering Ken Griffin, I would say, uh, digital gold 525 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: is going to catch a physical goal because of the 526 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: generational turnover, and that's a five potentially in dollar market potential. 527 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: And then I would say, you know, Ken, what's Web 528 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: three worth? Because that's what's being built right now, and 529 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: Web three is really important and really necessary. There's this 530 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: other bucket that you're talking about, and it's it's dog coin. Uh. 531 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: It's also game Stop, it's identity investing, it's it's this 532 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: patch that we wear, uh, and and it's Army that 533 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: we we are a part of. And you know, yes 534 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: it's momentum driven, and yes it's easy to laugh at um, 535 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's real. Right. Game Stop has been 536 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: trying to be shortened for a year and here we are, 537 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: and I think where where this is actually going to 538 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: happen the right way, because I don't think those are 539 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: the right long term answers. Having you know, been around 540 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: markets for a while, I think the n f T 541 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: space is actually gonna get that identity investing right. It's 542 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: gonna flip the fundamentals of that. If you're part of 543 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: a network and that's your identity, and you're early to 544 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: that network like board a yacht club, uh, you're you're 545 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: you're an owner, you wear that badge and you own 546 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: a piece of that network as it grows. But there's 547 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: also real world crossover uh into some of the second 548 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: order applications of that. That's where it gets really interesting. 549 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: So it's it's hard to say an institutional indexing. Yes, 550 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: those things do get filtered out. But I think that 551 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: we have to imagine a world where identity investing has value. 552 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: And it's possible all that like Facebook, where we didn't 553 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: know what the economic model of the valuation was going 554 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: to be until well after the network had grown, It's 555 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: possible that we're just in the early stages of some 556 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: of this, and I think it would be um silly 557 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: to dismiss the value of some of that, or the 558 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: potential future value of some of that stand clearer of 559 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: the craziest things we saw in markets this week, I 560 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: think we gotta go crazy things now. I'm looking forward 561 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: to Steve's crazy things build. As you know, crypto is, 562 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: there's always something crazy talked about. But let's go with 563 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: you with old Donna first, what's yours? Yeah, So I 564 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: saw a lot of crazy crypto things this week, and 565 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 1: I wrote up some of them, but I'm not going 566 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: to go with them because I'm hoping that maybe Steve 567 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: touches on some of them. I'm going with this story 568 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: that I saw in the Wall Street Journal, and the 569 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: headline is is Santa Claus coming to town? Maybe not 570 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: blame the labor shortage. So if anybody as little kids, 571 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: maybe you want to shield their ears from this. But 572 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: the tight labor market means that there's a really small 573 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: supply of Santa claus Is making their rounds. So it's 574 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: really really difficult to book a Santa Claus for a 575 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: party or an event or a mall or whatever. And 576 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: that even back in July for Christmas. In July, all 577 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: of these places were basically overbooked with you know, people 578 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: asking for for Santa Claus. So I don't want to start. 579 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: It's not even Thanksgiving. I don't want to start having 580 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: to worry about this. I don't want to start a controversy. 581 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: But it's not like they were promote top of the 582 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: labor force food chain to begin with. You know, so 583 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm not weighing in on this. That's all you. That's 584 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: all you. Yeah, I would have the shiba you know 585 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: people after all? Right, my crazy things related actually one 586 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: of them, I've got a triple crazy thing. But Steve, 587 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: let's hear what you got for crazy things this week? Well, 588 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: I I know it's supposed to be one, but there's 589 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: there's two, and they're both Twitter Twitter related. I can't 590 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: I can't avoid the maybe it's Elon's biggest Jedi mind 591 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: trick of all time in having and having Twitter decide 592 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: whether he's gonna be able to monetize twenty six billion 593 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: dollars of Tesla stalk. I thought that was weird, fascinating, 594 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: a sign of the times. Uh, that sure was? Yeah, yeah, 595 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: considering he put the program into place in September, you know, 596 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of questions. I got a lot 597 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: of questions, but maybe maybe maybe not, maybe not for 598 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: today and the more crypto native one is you know, 599 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: I alluded at the beginning of the podcast, there's a 600 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: there's a whole vernacular on crypto Twitter, and one of 601 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: them is is is GM. It means good morning, and 602 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: you can say good morning to each other. But it's 603 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: more of a as Twitter would say, a crypto Twitter 604 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: would say, it's a vibe check. Uh, And so you 605 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: could say GM if you're feeling fresh in the afternoon 606 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: or in the evening. And um, there was a a 607 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: venture adventure capitalist named Sam Lesson who criticized that language, 608 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: and Uh, the co founder of Salona, threatened him jokingly 609 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: in in reply, and was subsequently banned from Twitter for 610 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: doing so. Um. This happened three hours before he went 611 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: on stage in Lisbon and announced the launch of a 612 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: Web three competing social media platform in partnership with Reddit. 613 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: So to recap, you had Uh, one of the founders 614 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: of the biggest Web three tokens banned from a Web 615 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: two protocol hours before launching a direct competitor. So I 616 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: found that to be again fascinating, weird and a sign 617 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: of the times. It's it's pretty good. Yeah, it's funny. 618 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: You know how important the conversation You know, you think 619 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: of Twitter is just this poof off time point it 620 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: really can be important, uh, parts of the conversation. And 621 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: as to your point elon muskin and stuff like this, 622 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: it's uh, never tweet Bila. I think you never tweeked, 623 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: do you? No? I I don't like tweeting you rarely. 624 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Our colleague Katie Garfield is so good at it. I 625 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: just can't keep up. So I just don't even try. 626 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: Just retweet stuff. I'll give you my my crazy things, Steve. 627 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: I know people consider crypto an alternative as a class. 628 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: It's not quite alternative enough for me. I like to 629 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: go even deeper into the alternative world. So all right, 630 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: so I got three things I and this is you 631 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: know I love the art and collectibles and memorabilia markets. Uh, 632 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: so I've got three. I couldn't boil it down to one. 633 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: So I've got three for you. But we can still 634 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: play prices, right, because I want each to you to 635 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: tell me which one you think is the highest price 636 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: that that went at auction, and and give me the 637 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: price you think it went at as a tiebreaker. Okay, 638 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: so first you'll answer highest, and then we'll circle back 639 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: and you'll give me the highest price Okay, first one 640 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: and this is current courtesy of the Independent newspaper. Back 641 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: to the mall, Santa Claus is. Uh. Will Ferrell in Elf, 642 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: great movie from my think, what about almost twenty years ago? 643 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: His costume. His Elf costume recently went up for sale 644 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: at auction in London ball places. So that's one item 645 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: that went up for auction. Uh. The other one courtesy 646 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: the BBC the volleyball used in the Tom Hanks movie 647 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: Castaway Wilson. The volleyball that went up for auction. Yes. 648 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: And thirdly, uh, courtesy I've both the l A times 649 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: in BBC. I saw this an Apple one computer, the 650 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: original Apple. Uh. Wadsniak and Steve Jobs built them. I 651 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: think literally in the garage. They only brought a couple 652 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: of hundred of this first batch in the seventies. Um. 653 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: One of these just sold for auction. I will tell 654 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: you it's made of wood. It still works. I don't 655 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: think you can hook it up to the web talk 656 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: about no Web point three. That was web web point zero, 657 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: but you know you could. I guess you could do 658 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: some word processing on it or something. But it still works. 659 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: It's made of CoA. Hawaiian CoA would is the casing 660 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,439 Speaker 1: of it. So well down you go. First, You've got 661 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: Will for old self costume the original Apple one computer 662 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: or Tom Hanks's volleyball Wilson from Castaway. Sounds like you're 663 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: you're setting us up for failure by making it sound 664 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: like it's the computer. So I'm gonna go with the volleyball. Volleyball, 665 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: all right? Yes, Steve, what's your call? And that Will 666 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: As much as I love Elf, that that's got to 667 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: be out because those I mean Wilson's Wilson. Um. I 668 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: I as someone told me what the Apple ones were worth, 669 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: but I can't remember. I'm gonna go with Wilson and 670 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: go head to head on the on the price with uh, 671 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, to see who, to see who wins with Labana. 672 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: All right, Bildona, what's your bid for the for Wilson 673 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: and volleyball? Oh my gosh, I don't even know. I mean, 674 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: I can't Steve remember. Maybe maybe I'm way off. I 675 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: actually I thought I thought we were like at five 676 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: thousand for Wilson. Oh, I'm sure we are. No, I'm 677 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: sure we are. I'm really bad at this game. Remind 678 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: you prices right, rules are in effect. So that's true 679 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: that you know. Okay, but that's easy. Let's let's let's 680 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: go closest, closest, closest to the pin. All right. The 681 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: volleyball went for three d eight thousand, Uh, Steve, but 682 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 1: was it? But the Apple one computer went for five 683 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: hundred thousand? Is the most valuable question? ALF costume went 684 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: for three hundred thousand. So the volleyball beat ALF by 685 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: about eight thousands. So this is Yeah, I thought Apple 686 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: one was. I was thinking in my head that would 687 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: be three hundred thousand, and then I thought Wilson's got 688 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: to be more than three d thousand. Hey, look, these 689 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 1: are these are hard assets to value. Uh, good luck 690 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: to Ken Griffin trying to value these things. I'll have 691 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: to get him on the show one time. You shouldn't 692 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: You should ask him about it. To take a look 693 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: at open see open see just hit ten billion dollars 694 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: of volume, and uh, you can see they're worth at 695 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: the moment. And I'm sure he'll have something to say 696 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: about some of them. Now, now is that f T 697 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: s up to you? Guys will start dabbling in or 698 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: are you already? Oh yeah, we Galaxy bought a punk 699 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,280 Speaker 1: last week. We're in the we we are out owners 700 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: of a crypto punk and we have uh yeah, in 701 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: our asset management business, we have six fifty million dollars 702 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: of venture capital money that's really focused on this entire space, 703 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: the creator economy and n f T s and gaming 704 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: and esports and it's fascinating stuff. How much did you 705 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: buy it for? No comment? It's it's it's it's it's 706 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: on the blockchain. Now we're I have to be careful 707 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: about that one, but it's I'm sure it's it will 708 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: be public at one point. I'm thinking it's more than 709 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: the Apple one computer. From from what I've read about 710 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: the punks, that would have been the right the right metric. 711 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: Great stuff. Steve, really appreciate your time. I think that's 712 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: all the time we have, uh but fascinating conversation. We'll 713 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,439 Speaker 1: have to get you back sometime if you're available. Thank 714 00:37:49,440 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: you both so much. I really appreciate what goes up. 715 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find 716 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app, or wherever 717 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,919 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. We'd love it if you took 718 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, 719 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: so more listeners can find us, and you can find 720 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: us on Twitter. Follow me at Reaganonymous. Bildonna Hirich is 721 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: at Bildonna Hirich. You can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at 722 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: podcasts Attact. You to Charlie Pellado, Bloomberg Radio What Goes 723 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: Up is produced by TO For foreheads ahead of Bloomberg 724 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: Podcasts is Francesco Levy. Thanks for listening, See you next time.