WEBVTT - DNA Down The Years

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<v Speaker 1>It's disconcerting to realize that it was only nine years

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<v Speaker 1>after the two Suites were murdered that the first DNA

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<v Speaker 1>evidence was presented at a criminal trial. Somehow, it seems

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<v Speaker 1>tantalizingly close to the case, even though it was still

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<v Speaker 1>almost a decade before the astonishing world first breakthrough that

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<v Speaker 1>followed an accidental scientific discovery in a nutshell. In nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty four, UK geneticist Alex Jeffries uncovered something remarkable as

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<v Speaker 1>he studied inherited illnesses. He had extracted DNA from cells

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<v Speaker 1>and attached it to photographic film. Once developed, that film

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<v Speaker 1>showed a row of bars, and the scientists realized that

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<v Speaker 1>every person whose cells had been used in his study

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<v Speaker 1>could be identified by those bars. The process could also

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<v Speaker 1>determine kinship, so life as we knew it, as far

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<v Speaker 1>as identity was concerned, was forever changed. Within two years,

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey's DNA fingerprinting helped exonerator man arrested for murder in

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<v Speaker 1>Leicestershire and convict the actual killer. That same year, the

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<v Speaker 1>first DNA evidence was used in a rate case in

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<v Speaker 1>the US. It took another three years before it was

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<v Speaker 1>used in Australia. In a sexual assault case in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 1>What's almost as extraordinary is how there came to be

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<v Speaker 1>any DNA to test in that INITIALSI case. It was

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<v Speaker 1>due to the extraordinary foresight of the late Tony Raymond,

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<v Speaker 1>then the director of the Forensic Services Center with Victoria Police.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen eighty two, he ordered hundreds of samples from

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<v Speaker 1>unsolved crime scenes to be stored in a special freezer

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<v Speaker 1>at minus seventy degree celsius. Samples including hair, clothing and

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<v Speaker 1>seamen collected by Victorian police. Such was Raymond's faith in

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<v Speaker 1>the advances forensic science would make that when the technology

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<v Speaker 1>to test samples became available in Australia a few years later,

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<v Speaker 1>authorities had much to work with, but it took a while.

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<v Speaker 1>Chief Commissioner Graham Ashton only became aware of the special

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<v Speaker 1>freezer when he was appointed the lab's director in two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and nine. At that stage there were nearly two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand samples from about six hundred unsolved crimes. Was any

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<v Speaker 1>evidence collected at Easy Street part of this cachet. More importantly,

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<v Speaker 1>was a seaman found near Suzanne's body secured in this freezer,

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<v Speaker 1>or perhaps a similar one at a different temperature. Then

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<v Speaker 1>there's the crucial question that really should be addressed first,

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<v Speaker 1>How was that sample, especially as well as blood collected

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<v Speaker 1>at the scene, stored before Tony Raymond made his visionary

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<v Speaker 1>decision to free certain pieces of evidence, And how secure

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<v Speaker 1>has the evidence taken from the house in collingwould been

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<v Speaker 1>in the past forty six years. Victoria Police refused to

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<v Speaker 1>shed any light on any of this. All we know

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<v Speaker 1>for sure is that Senior Detective Ron Iddols felt there

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<v Speaker 1>was enough DNA material to work with to reopen the

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<v Speaker 1>easy Stree case when he took over cold cases in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eleven. After evaluating which of the states two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and eighty unsolved homicides were worth his new team's attention,

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<v Speaker 1>he gave them each a color code according to their

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<v Speaker 1>chances of being solved. Red indicated cases that were probably

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<v Speaker 1>never going to be solved, yellow for those that needed

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<v Speaker 1>a total overhaul, and green for the ones they could

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<v Speaker 1>probably solve. The Easy Street file was one of just

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<v Speaker 1>thirty on this list, given the green tick due to

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that there was DNA to work with, Yet

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<v Speaker 1>even the detective with the ninety five percent conviction rate

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't find this killer. Again, there were no DNA matches

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<v Speaker 1>between any of the men tested and the evidence taken

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<v Speaker 1>from the house. But should this necessarily raise concerns about

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<v Speaker 1>the way materials were held in those pre DNA years.

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<v Speaker 1>Some scuttle butt suggests they weren't as secure as they

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<v Speaker 1>would be now. Years ago, former detective Peter Hiscock was

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<v Speaker 1>told off the record naturally that the Easy Street exhibit

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<v Speaker 1>box went missing for nearly two decades now.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a situation for about seventeen years. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that those exhibits were misplaced down at Collingwood where they

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<v Speaker 2>be stored.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's happened to those exhibits in the time.

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<v Speaker 3>I've got them?

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<v Speaker 4>Who knows?

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<v Speaker 2>They just been sitting in a box another area. They've

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<v Speaker 2>got a facility down at Collingwood.

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<v Speaker 1>So when did they go missing?

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<v Speaker 2>That's I said. I don't know when they went missing.

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<v Speaker 2>But this detectives spoke to me, oh quite a few

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<v Speaker 2>years ago and said that they've just refound them. He

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<v Speaker 2>actually worked out what had happened, whether they put them

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<v Speaker 2>these with the aids.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very high level system down there. Knowing the

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<v Speaker 2>police department.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a forty year old case and the exhibits have

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<v Speaker 1>been missing for seventeen years. That's scary in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>solving it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you need to check that for sure, tell me, but.

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<v Speaker 4>Of course it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Again. Victoria Police won't confirm or deny this happened, and

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<v Speaker 1>it might not matter as long as the DNA samples

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<v Speaker 1>were securely stored. Dad Na Hartman manages the molecular biology

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<v Speaker 1>lab at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine and she

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<v Speaker 1>knows a great deal about the science the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>us like to think we understand.

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<v Speaker 5>To me, DNA is it's a living thing. It's a

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<v Speaker 5>biological so we have to remember that it's a finite

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<v Speaker 5>that it has properties that make it prone to degradation decomposition.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's something that while holds the bootprint and tells

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<v Speaker 5>us who we are, it's not something that lives on forever,

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<v Speaker 5>and it's something that while we can recover, it is

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<v Speaker 5>quite precious and we have to treat it with the

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<v Speaker 5>utmost respect. For most part, our task is to help

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<v Speaker 5>identify coronial cases. So where people have been reported to

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<v Speaker 5>the coroner and they are not able to be identified

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<v Speaker 5>by family members, then we might apply scientific means of

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<v Speaker 5>identification such as DNA fingerprints dental records. For me in particular,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm interested in being able to use DNA capabilities to

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<v Speaker 5>help identify people.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in a sense, it has our imprint, if

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<v Speaker 1>you like, and everyone's imprint is individual, very unique.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, while we share a lot of things in common,

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<v Speaker 5>there will be parts of OURNA that are unique to us.

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<v Speaker 5>And from the purposes of identification, what we're targeting are

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<v Speaker 5>those parts of the DNA that are unique to us

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<v Speaker 5>so that we can build what is known as our

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<v Speaker 5>DNA profile. So when we say we obtain your DNA

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<v Speaker 5>or do a DNA profile really is we're looking at

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<v Speaker 5>a subset of very small number of markers within your

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<v Speaker 5>DNA that are unique and that we can then compare

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<v Speaker 5>to the DNA profile of others. So we're not looking

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<v Speaker 5>at all of your DNA. We're only targeting very specific

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<v Speaker 5>regions that help us with identification.

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<v Speaker 1>And when we say markers, what do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 5>But do you look sort of fragments of DNA that

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<v Speaker 5>reside in different parts of your DNA. So DNA is

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<v Speaker 5>arranged into chromosomes, we would target different DNA markers at

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<v Speaker 5>various regions in those chromosomes. But those markers, as I said,

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<v Speaker 5>useful for identification. There are other DNA markers that might

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<v Speaker 5>be useful for let's say, genetic predisposition to disease, or

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<v Speaker 5>important for you know, biological processes in our body. But

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<v Speaker 5>we're targeting those that are useful for identification.

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<v Speaker 1>Despite her obvious expertise, Dad and A Hartman can't comment

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<v Speaker 1>specifically about the investigation into the murders on Easy Street,

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<v Speaker 1>but I asked her if the sample of seamen found

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<v Speaker 1>on Suzanne's bedroom floor could survive for three nights and

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<v Speaker 1>two days in the summer of nineteen seventy seven, Yes, we.

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<v Speaker 5>Should, I guess if collected appropriately and stored appropriately, we

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<v Speaker 5>would hope to be able to go back to those

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<v Speaker 5>sample types and extract DNA. Now, you may not be

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<v Speaker 5>able to extract a lot, or it may be highly degraded.

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<v Speaker 5>Here are the conditions the time that's passed, but we

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<v Speaker 5>don't need a lot for what they're sort of analysis

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<v Speaker 5>that we complete. Therefore, if you can just recover, as

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<v Speaker 5>you know what I said, a smidgen of DNA, that

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<v Speaker 5>might be sufficient to be able to develop a dnair

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<v Speaker 5>profile for comparison. But that's dependent again on the sample

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<v Speaker 5>being collected in an appropriate manner and stored appropriately as well. Now,

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<v Speaker 5>I guess, going back that period of time when perhaps

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<v Speaker 5>we went thinking about DNA, those people that were collecting

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<v Speaker 5>those samples that probably were not wearing their appropriate pipe

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<v Speaker 5>that we would do now, you know, wearing gloves, masks,

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<v Speaker 5>ensuring that we ourselves don't contaminate those samples. How having

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<v Speaker 5>said that, there are instances where we've been able to

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<v Speaker 5>go back to cases, you know, cold cases where samples

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<v Speaker 5>have been collected in a manner that was appropriate at

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<v Speaker 5>the time, and we still successfully recover DNA profiles. From

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<v Speaker 5>our point of view, it's kind of you just have

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<v Speaker 5>to give it a go. You know, you can't say, well,

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<v Speaker 5>you might be too old, or it might be degraded.

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<v Speaker 5>You just have to give it a go.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's some stage someone has suggested they were

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<v Speaker 1>put in paper bags. Is that is that okay?

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, that's fine. And again provided that they're sealed appropriately

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<v Speaker 5>and have been, there's a chain of custody to be

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<v Speaker 5>able to then go back and say, yes, these are

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<v Speaker 5>the appropriate samples that belong to that case, then the

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<v Speaker 5>ship be fine.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, dad Na Hartman hasn't worked on the Easy Street case.

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<v Speaker 1>That's all been done at the police forensics lab. But

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<v Speaker 1>she knows what's next in a case if there's no

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<v Speaker 1>hits on our national criminal database and familial searchers have

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<v Speaker 1>hit a wall. And here's where past science really gets

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<v Speaker 1>overtaken by contemporary scholarship. Forensic investigative genetic genealogy FIGG.

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<v Speaker 5>Again, once you've looked at all your current avenues of inquiries,

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<v Speaker 5>it might be that you might submit your sample for

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<v Speaker 5>this application that would require you to generate a profile

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<v Speaker 5>that's suitable for comparison to commercial databases where people have

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<v Speaker 5>themselves have an interest in their genealogy and have provided

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<v Speaker 5>can sent to have law enforcement be able to compare

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<v Speaker 5>against their data. And what you're doing is you're not

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<v Speaker 5>actually getting their DNA from the database. You're uploading the unknown,

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<v Speaker 5>and you're asking whether you've got any people in the

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<v Speaker 5>database that are closely related. And what you get back

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<v Speaker 5>is a list of people who share potentially some DNA

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<v Speaker 5>with your unknown. And then you've got to build genealogy

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<v Speaker 5>trees and see whether you can narrow down and potentially

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<v Speaker 5>identify your unknown. Now that takes a lot of work.

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<v Speaker 5>And there's no guarantees that you will find people that

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<v Speaker 5>are closely related to your unknown on those databases, but

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<v Speaker 5>I guess it would be potentially another step that you

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<v Speaker 5>could take in the investigation if your current modes of

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<v Speaker 5>analysis don't pan out.

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<v Speaker 1>This has been slow to take off in Australia do

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<v Speaker 1>to privacy issues involving the use of commercially available databases

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<v Speaker 1>like ancestry dot com. Yet, while legal legals take all that,

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<v Speaker 1>Dardner warns against using up too much of the original

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<v Speaker 1>DNA samples in historic cases.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it's important to particularly for these finite samples

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<v Speaker 5>where you can't keep testing them indefinitely. Well, eventually you're

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<v Speaker 5>going to run out. You know, you might have an

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<v Speaker 5>extract of DNA and you're using a little bit at

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<v Speaker 5>a time for the different tests. Eventually that extract you're

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<v Speaker 5>going to use it all up. So it's important to

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<v Speaker 5>safeguard that material, and I guess make those decisions as

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<v Speaker 5>to what would be the best tool to apply. And

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<v Speaker 5>if that's not today, then let's wait six or twelve

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<v Speaker 5>months and again review and see whether there's now an

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<v Speaker 5>opportunity to use a different methodology, whether that be FIGG

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<v Speaker 5>or something else, and they make the decision.

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<v Speaker 1>Again, if we accept that one hundred people have been

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<v Speaker 1>tested against this sample that was found in Easy Street

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<v Speaker 1>in the bedroom, that doesn't necessarily mean that one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>little extracts came out.

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<v Speaker 5>No, So what would have happened is a DNA profile

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<v Speaker 5>would have been developed from that sample. Now that DNA

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<v Speaker 5>profile itself can be compared to the DNA profiles of

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<v Speaker 5>four hundred persons of interest, so it's the data that

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<v Speaker 5>you're comparing, not the extract. So I would hope that

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<v Speaker 5>there would have used a small portion of that DNA

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<v Speaker 5>extract to develop that DNA profile, that there's some DNA

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<v Speaker 5>extract remaining and that's been stored appropriately, and that's what

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<v Speaker 5>could be tapped in the future to develop more DNA information.

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<v Speaker 1>While we await this debate, a former federal MP Reckons

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<v Speaker 1>is an even broader political cultural concern, the dog's cold

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<v Speaker 1>cases involving women. He's come to understand this from distressing

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<v Speaker 1>personal experience. Bill Clear's sister, Vicki, was fatally stabbed in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty seven. Her killer was found not guilty of

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<v Speaker 1>murder after running the notorious provocation defense, and sentenced to

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<v Speaker 1>just three years and eleven months in jail to Cleary.

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<v Speaker 1>The way detectives investigated both cases reeks of the same

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<v Speaker 1>old fashioned framework.

0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 3>Here two young women, one who has a child and

0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.760
<v Speaker 3>of course is declared to be as a pejorative an

0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 3>unmarried mother because she's had the Greek daliance. Of course,

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 3>that's Suzanne Armstrong. And there you have Sue Bartlett, who's

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 3>the teacher. And isn't it interesting to talk about Sue.

0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 3>She was a big woman, but thankfully she had a

0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 3>beautiful face. But all the while the discussion about them

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 3>was about their social activities, their relationship with men. And

0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 3>so from the moment they were murdered, we know that

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 3>the police adopted the attitude that they had practices that

0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.680
<v Speaker 3>put them at risk in that they came to know men.

0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Now the police kind of knew that. But at the

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 3>same time there was a counter story, which was that

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 3>this bloke that killed them was a monster.

0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 1>Now this is a perspective Phil Cleary has thought about

0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot. His sister's killer, Peter Ko was declared a

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 1>person of interest in Melbourne so called bookshop murder, where

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Maria James was fatally stabbed in nineteen eighty.

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 3>And of course, if I put my lens on that

0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.480
<v Speaker 3>story based on what I know about the killing of women,

0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't look to that monster who they don't know.

0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 3>The man who kills them is a monster, but he's

0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.760
<v Speaker 3>an ordinary bloke as well. But you know, we can

0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 3>say that these men are monsters, but they're on a

0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 3>continuum in that they're a monster at the point that

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 3>they kill. They have monstrous ideas in that they are

0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:04.320
<v Speaker 3>riddled with misogyny andtriarchal assumptions about women, and so in essence,

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.200
<v Speaker 3>this is the major problem. If we had a police

0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.440
<v Speaker 3>force at the time that was thinking really smart about this,

0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.840
<v Speaker 3>they would have solved the crime. I don't believe, based

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 3>on all of the empirical evidence around historical killing of women,

0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 3>that this bloke has wandered in off the street and

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:31.640
<v Speaker 3>knocked on the door and then killed Suzanne Armstrong. I

0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.760
<v Speaker 3>believe he knew her. He may have tried it on

0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 3>with her before and been knocked back. But she has

0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:45.080
<v Speaker 3>been killed because she did what so many women have

0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 3>done historically before they've been murdered. She said no to

0:16:51.560 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 3>a Dalian's a relationship or she ended a relationship with him.

0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.679
<v Speaker 1>Certainly the late Brian Murphy believed the double homicide was

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.920
<v Speaker 1>planned to some extent in advance. The former detective didn't

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>beat around the bush.

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:12.720
<v Speaker 3>No.

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.679
<v Speaker 4>I think fellows that commit those kind of murders have

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.600
<v Speaker 4>got it on their mind all the time. Most of

0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.720
<v Speaker 4>those things are pre planned. You's either seen that both

0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.200
<v Speaker 4>of them going in if they had a k might

0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 4>have put petrol in one time or another and thought,

0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.439
<v Speaker 4>I wonder where they live. You know, there's a million

0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.800
<v Speaker 4>reasons why they do it, But I think that they're

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 4>well planned when they do it like that. And like

0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.200
<v Speaker 4>the lady that was killed in the booksher, I think

0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.439
<v Speaker 4>that was planned and it's just not on off the cuff.

0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.720
<v Speaker 3>Theee, how is it that Maria James was murdered in

0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:56.280
<v Speaker 3>nineteen eighty and Peter cho who kills my sister seven

0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:01.640
<v Speaker 3>years later is not properly interviewed at the time and afterwards.

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.199
<v Speaker 3>Do you see a connection between that and easy Street?

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:07.880
<v Speaker 3>Of course you do.

0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:08.639
<v Speaker 2>So.

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 3>The upshot is surely that the institutional preconceptions about the

0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.919
<v Speaker 3>place of women in the world, the blaming of women,

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.680
<v Speaker 3>afflicts every investigation unwittingly.

0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.719
<v Speaker 1>Prominent Melbourne lawyer Liz Dowling remembers this cultural political prism

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 1>and jury calls the impact that Sue and Suzanne's deaths

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:35.080
<v Speaker 1>had in the city.

0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.160
<v Speaker 6>Everybody was talking about it, you know, everybody knew about

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.639
<v Speaker 6>easy strait, that write our bikes down there, had a

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.199
<v Speaker 6>look call, all of that sort of stuff. But I

0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.480
<v Speaker 6>guess sense that it was always in such a way

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.639
<v Speaker 6>as even though the media were talking about it being

0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.800
<v Speaker 6>a madman that was walking around doing it, there was

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.840
<v Speaker 6>also this other aspect of it being somebody that they,

0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.359
<v Speaker 6>the women knew, And also there was all that such

0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.439
<v Speaker 6>shaming that they had brought it on themselves, that the

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:02.479
<v Speaker 6>doors were open. And I mean even though they were

0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 6>supposed to have been a sexual revolution, I mean there

0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.199
<v Speaker 6>was still there was still very much the ethos of

0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.600
<v Speaker 6>You've got to remember also, Helen, that that period of time,

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 6>of course, was between the contraceptive pill and aides, and

0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 6>it was huge up evils that had happened. I mean,

0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.600
<v Speaker 6>women didn't have to worry about contraceptive and men didn't

0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.680
<v Speaker 6>have to worry about the women worrying about contraception either,

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:24.960
<v Speaker 6>and it was a bit of a free for all,

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.560
<v Speaker 6>certainly as far as casual sex was concerned. The women

0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:34.680
<v Speaker 6>that engaged in casual sex by certain groups. And I'd

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:39.680
<v Speaker 6>also say quite generally still had the old tags given

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.800
<v Speaker 6>to them about it. And I think that the women

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.040
<v Speaker 6>in easy Strait, certainly it was that view. She was

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.200
<v Speaker 6>a single mother, she wasn't married. And also the stories

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.360
<v Speaker 6>about you know, there were three blokes that had come

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:50.879
<v Speaker 6>in and out of the house when the bodies were

0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:52.720
<v Speaker 6>on the floor and the child was even in the bedroom,

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 6>giving an indication of the traffic that did go through

0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.400
<v Speaker 6>those houses. But that happened in all the group houses.

0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.280
<v Speaker 1>And do you think this in form this view of

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.479
<v Speaker 1>women informed not just the detectives themselves, but also their

0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:07.959
<v Speaker 1>way they went about the investigation.

0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.439
<v Speaker 6>I think the police generally at that time came from well,

0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.760
<v Speaker 6>they hadn't they hadn't gone to university, They left school

0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 6>at form five. The people that would being the police,

0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.399
<v Speaker 6>I mean, they weren't living in the shit holes in

0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.840
<v Speaker 6>group houses. So there were two completely different classes of people.

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 6>They had probably been married at twenty two or twenty

0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:27.199
<v Speaker 6>three and had a couple of children. I mean, I

0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 6>know I'm generalizing here, and they would have had their parents'

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 6>values that women that had casual sex were sluts.

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.240
<v Speaker 1>Those perceptions aside this, Dowling says the suggestion that the

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.160
<v Speaker 1>killer was known to either Suzanne or Susan obviously helps

0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.760
<v Speaker 1>explain how he entered the house and maybe how he's

0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.720
<v Speaker 1>evaded investigators for almost half a century.

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 6>I think there was the perception that they knew who

0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.800
<v Speaker 6>the killer was, that the girls knew who the killer was.

0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.760
<v Speaker 6>This wasn't somebody that had someone had broken into a

0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.840
<v Speaker 6>house in South Yarra, some married woman you know, whose

0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.960
<v Speaker 6>husband had been overseas had been raped and killed with

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 6>her friend in the house. I think that there was

0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 6>a very an attitude of its time that this person

0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.560
<v Speaker 6>was known to them. I'm just a little curious about

0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.600
<v Speaker 6>the person with the knife, and maybe the person with

0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:22.359
<v Speaker 6>the knife meant that they were no one, maybe no

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.320
<v Speaker 6>one to her, but not in the circle of people

0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.719
<v Speaker 6>that she would have considered having sex with. Or so

0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:31.480
<v Speaker 6>did someone decide that they were going to come a

0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.199
<v Speaker 6>kniver or did the killing happen after there was a

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.000
<v Speaker 6>rejection of her? But why would you come in with

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:38.960
<v Speaker 6>a knife in the first.

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Place, unless to do harm?

0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.120
<v Speaker 6>Unless to do harm?

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.119
<v Speaker 1>But like journalist Andrew Ruhle and others who've been trying

0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.920
<v Speaker 1>to crack this conundrum for so long. Liz also worries

0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.440
<v Speaker 1>that all the time spent trying to get a DNA

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.480
<v Speaker 1>match might have just been following a DNA bunny down

0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:56.120
<v Speaker 1>a rabbit hole.

0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:58.639
<v Speaker 6>And I was also interested in your book about the

0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 6>DNA as far as the DNA was concerned and where

0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 6>the DNA was found, because I think the conundrum has

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.400
<v Speaker 6>been if somebody did this, unless they dropped dead, it's

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.360
<v Speaker 6>unlikely statistically they would have led a blameless last since

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:16.359
<v Speaker 6>that period of time. So if you take the DNA

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.119
<v Speaker 6>out of the equation and say, well, we don't have

0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 6>anything about linking the DNA to the person and testing

0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.360
<v Speaker 6>the person with the DNA, so I'm being an amateur detective,

0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.199
<v Speaker 6>then maybe that does broaden the group of people that

0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:28.480
<v Speaker 6>could have done it within their group.

0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.440
<v Speaker 1>For this lawyer, the next step in this call case,

0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:37.359
<v Speaker 1>nearly fifty years down the track, is a second coronial inquiry.

0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.240
<v Speaker 6>The savagery of it, the savagery of it is not

0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 6>sex gone bad, and the savagery of it looks like

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.199
<v Speaker 6>it's something that's been planned. There's two women that have

0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 6>been extensively stabbed, and it didn't seem to be clear

0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:56.480
<v Speaker 6>at the time, about how deep the wounds were, how

0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.239
<v Speaker 6>they actually died, whether they were already dead when and that,

0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.000
<v Speaker 6>like a lot of the stabbing went on, that just

0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:04.840
<v Speaker 6>all didn't seem to be quite clear. So our crinal

0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.120
<v Speaker 6>inquests could possibly explore those issues.

0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Next time on the Easy Street murders.

0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.240
<v Speaker 3>We should go back and revisit how DNA was used.

0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.760
<v Speaker 4>This was a huge event for Melbourne for Collingwood.

0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:25.639
<v Speaker 3>Contemporary inquests are so critical to our understanding on the

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:26.840
<v Speaker 3>failings of the past.

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:28.240
<v Speaker 4>What have you got to those