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Speaker 1: All the unplugging is Forgotten Seasons.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Forgotten Seasons. This

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Speaker 2: is your host, Dylan Dreyfus. Today we have a fascinating

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Speaker 2: interview a guy that was one of the first players

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Speaker 2: I thought of when I started Forgotten Seasons, my Mood

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Speaker 2: abdu Roof, a transcendent talent that became the face of

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest social justice stories in sports history.

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Speaker 2: Most of you are probably familiar with abdurouv story, but

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Speaker 2: for those of you who aren't, here's a little backstory

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Speaker 2: before we get into the interview. Abduroof was one of

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Speaker 2: the most prolific college players of all time. In his

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Speaker 2: two seasons at LSU in the late eighties, he averaged

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Speaker 2: nearly thirty points per game and shot seven threes per

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Speaker 2: game at a near forty percent clip. Those numbers and

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Speaker 2: that play style is something that just wasn't happening in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties. He was teammates with Shack during his

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Speaker 2: sophomore season, and abdu Roof, standing at just over six

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Speaker 2: feet tall, was the biggest star on the team. That

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Speaker 2: should tell you enough about just how good my Abdureroof was.

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Speaker 2: His NBA career began in nineteen ninety as the third

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Speaker 2: overall pick in the draft to the Denver Nuggets, But

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Speaker 2: the situation that he walked into was pretty horrible. Denver

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Speaker 2: had a new coach by the name of Paul Westthead

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Speaker 2: who I think is one of the worst coaches in

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Speaker 2: NBA history. As soon as he gets there, he makes

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Speaker 2: it very clear that his mission is not really to

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Speaker 2: win games, but rather he wants to be the first

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Speaker 2: team to score two hundred points in an NBA game.

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Speaker 2: He spent two years as head coach of the Nuggets,

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Speaker 2: which were also Abdureroof's first two seasons in the league.

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Speaker 2: Over those two seasons, the Nuggets went forty four in

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty. In nineteen ninety one, Denver allowed

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty point eight points per game, a

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Speaker 2: record that still stands today as the worst defensive season

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Speaker 2: of all time. No other team has particularly come close

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Speaker 2: to even sniffing one hundred and thirty point eight points

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Speaker 2: per game. And to make matters worse, west Head wasn't

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Speaker 2: really playing my mood. Abduorro the guy that Denver drafted

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Speaker 2: third overall to be the future of their franchise. Instead,

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Speaker 2: Westead played a guy named Michael Adams ahead of abdul Roof.

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Speaker 2: I want you to go look at Michael Adams basketball

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Speaker 2: reference page because it's one of just the craziest things

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Speaker 2: you'll see. It makes no sense. So after west Head's

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Speaker 2: two years in Denver, he gets canned in incomes dan Issel,

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Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame player and Nuggets great in his

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Speaker 2: own right. One of his first moves is to fully

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Speaker 2: give him a mood Abdul Roof the Keys. He responds

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Speaker 2: by winning Most Improved Player in nineteen ninety three and

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Speaker 2: helps the Nuggets make two consecutive playoff appearances in ninety

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Speaker 2: four and ninety five. But in nineteen ninety six, controversy hits.

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Speaker 2: Abdu Roof is in the midst of one of the

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Speaker 2: best seasons of his career. He's averaging twenty points per game,

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Speaker 2: seven assists per game, shooting nearly forty percent from deep.

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Speaker 2: The Nuggets are playing good ball, They've got a young team,

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Speaker 2: but during that season, abdul Roof also stops standing for

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Speaker 2: the national anthem before games. It's a very similar story

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Speaker 2: to what happened with Colin Kaepernick more recently in the

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Speaker 2: NFL huge public backlash, the front office doesn't stick by him.

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Speaker 2: Days after the ninety six season ends, Abdul Roof is

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Speaker 2: shipped out of Denver and two Sacramento, and just a

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Speaker 2: few years after that, his NBA career is effectively over.

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Speaker 2: So that is the very abbreviated version of the story

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Speaker 2: of my mood. Abdul Roof. We hit on his entire

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Speaker 2: NBA journey in this interview, from the dog days in

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Speaker 2: Denver to a historic playoff upset in nineteen ninety four

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Speaker 2: to his final days in the NBA. So let's get

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Speaker 2: into the interview now real quick. His audio is not

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Speaker 2: the best at times. I do apologize for that. One

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Speaker 2: more thing. I'm also going to be dropping a bonus

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Speaker 2: episode after this where I dive deeper into the collapse

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Speaker 2: of the Nuggets following Abdula Roof's exit. That's going to

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Speaker 2: be titled Bonus Episode. You should see it now. I

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Speaker 2: don't know about you, guys, but I love a good

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Speaker 2: front office fuck up story, and the case of the

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Speaker 2: late nineties Denver Nuggets is exactly that. Two years after

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Speaker 2: they trade Abdul Roof, they go eleven and seventy one.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the worst seasons in NBA history, a

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Speaker 2: complete disaster. Much of it can be pinned back to

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Speaker 2: one day in nineteen ninety six, which I will explain

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Speaker 2: in that bonus episode. So I hope you guys check

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Speaker 2: that out. I hope you enjoy it all and learn

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Speaker 2: something new while you listen. That is all I got.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into the interview now forgotten seasons with my

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Speaker 2: mood abdul roof begins right now, my mood?

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Speaker 1: What is up?

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Speaker 2: How you doing today?

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Speaker 1: Man? I won't complain it. Hey, stand busy? How about yoursell? Hey?

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Speaker 2: I mean I'm talking to you. I know you're in

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Speaker 2: the midst of a crazy press tour for your upcoming

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Speaker 2: documentary Stand, So we'll start there. By the time this

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Speaker 2: comes out, Stan will already have premiered on Showtime. I

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Speaker 2: got the chance to see it. It's fantastic. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to pitch it to you for people that are hearing

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Speaker 2: about this for the first time. What is Stand and

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Speaker 2: what is it?

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Speaker 1: The story of well Stand is a story of generally

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Speaker 1: my life.

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Speaker 3: But my life is um you know, faith, resilience, some

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Speaker 3: may say in courageous it's dealing with.

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Speaker 1: How you navigate through health, issues.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's red syndrome, you know, being miseducated, and

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Speaker 3: how I eventually follved out of that. Growing up in

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Speaker 3: a single family, growing up in the ghetto, surrounded by

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Speaker 3: all with the ghetto provides us with in terms of

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Speaker 3: prostitutes and drug addictions, you know, all of that.

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Speaker 2: The.

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Speaker 3: Social political position that I took in Denver, the HBO interview,

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Speaker 3: the things that pretty much ended my career.

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Speaker 1: So that and then some more.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, fantastic documentary available now on Showtime, go

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Speaker 2: watch it. So for today's purposes, right, you were on

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Speaker 2: all the smoke. I got the chance to be there. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: people can watch the documentary. I want to hit on

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Speaker 2: some things from your career that maybe weren't touched on

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Speaker 2: in the documentary and that you're not here and everywhere.

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Speaker 2: To start, I want to start with your rookie year.

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Speaker 2: You go thirty to the nineteen ninety draft. You're one

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Speaker 2: of the greatest college players of all time. You basically

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Speaker 2: walk into LSU averaging thirty points. You are on the

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Speaker 2: same team as Shaquille O'Neill, yet overshadow one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest humans ever. And you arrive in Denver in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety third overall pick. The Nuggets for the nine years

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Speaker 2: before you got there were a steady playoff team led

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Speaker 2: by Alex English, fat lever. Doug Moe was the coach

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Speaker 2: steady franchise. But the Nuggets that you walk into in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety are not those Nuggets from the eighties. Can

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Speaker 2: you paint a picture from your POV of the Nuggets

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Speaker 2: team that you walked into your rookie season.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I appreciate you saying that. You know, I

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Speaker 3: was drafted by Doug Moe and he wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Make me the guy getting there.

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Speaker 3: They fired him and they brought in Paul with always

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Speaker 3: said came in with the idea of wanting to be

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Speaker 3: the first Coast scored two hundred games, I mean two

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Speaker 3: hundred points in a game, not necessarily he didn't say win, but.

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Speaker 1: Two hundred points. And uh, it was just an abysinimble couple.

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Speaker 3: Of years getting booed out of you know, the arena.

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Speaker 3: So it was very tough, you know, coming from L

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Speaker 3: s U and and coming into that environment.

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Speaker 1: And also I came in out of shape, which didn't

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Speaker 1: help at all.

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Speaker 3: But it was a tough time and it was a

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Speaker 3: tough time to play in Denver at that at at

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Speaker 3: that moment, I mean, fans would come in and other

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Speaker 3: teams would come in and they would.

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Speaker 1: They would cheer them on way more than they would

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Speaker 1: cheer us on.

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Speaker 3: And then we didn't have an airplane and you have

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Speaker 3: to go to the baggage claim get your bags. You

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Speaker 3: gotta you gotta check in like super early did there

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Speaker 3: for three four o'clock and they were smoking on the

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Speaker 3: plane during then right, it was, man, it was you

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Speaker 3: started to coming out of college and experiencing that.

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Speaker 1: You're like, man, do I really want to do this?

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Speaker 1: You know? But it was it was tough. We got through.

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Speaker 2: So you touched on Paul west d a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But I want to just kind of give the listeners

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Speaker 2: like a full idea of what exactly was going on,

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Speaker 2: because you it's in the documentary. He has this press

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Speaker 2: conference in the beginning of the season. He says, Hey, listen,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how many points, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: many games we're going to win, but the one thing

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Speaker 2: I can promise you is that we're going to score

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Speaker 2: a lot of points. And you say, like, you know, great, Okay,

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Speaker 2: We're in a high octane offense. But it wasn't that okay,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned it. You finished last year rookie year twenty

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Speaker 2: and sixty two. He was right, He's not a liar.

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Speaker 2: You did lead the league in points per game score.

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Speaker 2: You score one hundred and twenty points per game as

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Speaker 2: a team, but you also find yourself in the history

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Speaker 2: books for being the worst defensive team of all time.

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Speaker 2: You give up one hundred and thirty points per game.

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Speaker 2: I mean you mentioned like you your mental your mental

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Speaker 2: struggles during this time, which you know you're overweight, which

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Speaker 2: was because of bad guidance, maybe you're not playing enough,

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Speaker 2: but like that just compounded on the fact that you're like,

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Speaker 2: what are we is it sort of like what are

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Speaker 2: we even doing here? Is that what you're thinking?

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Speaker 3: You're right, But but also Manu Paul Wesson had had

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Speaker 3: a philosophy.

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Speaker 1: I heard him say one time, and I get it.

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Speaker 3: There's a there's a balance between motivating people and being ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: He said, the more you run, the faster you get. No,

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Speaker 3: the more you run, the slower you get. And so

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Speaker 3: he he had a he had a philosophy. Even when

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Speaker 3: the team was on the other end, He's and they

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Speaker 3: were already set up defensually, take the ball out and

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Speaker 3: push it down their throats, right, and so a lot

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Speaker 3: of guys were just we were just wore out during

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Speaker 3: the season.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: It was just too much, which is also why Uh,

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, we may have led the league in scoring,

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Speaker 3: but it was an abysmal record and teams used to

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Speaker 3: beat us by more than what we were you know

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Speaker 3: we were scoring.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it was just it was tough man his his.

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Speaker 3: Uh, this philosophy, I don't think, just fit with the

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Speaker 3: guys that we had on that team at the time.

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Speaker 2: So that happens. Your first two years aren't great, but

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Speaker 2: then in year three it flips you win Most Improved Player.

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Speaker 2: What kind of clicks in your mind going from year

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Speaker 2: two to year three? I know dan Isseil, who comes

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Speaker 2: in a coach, a Hall of Famer in his own right,

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Speaker 2: was was it big a big influence on that? But

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Speaker 2: what clicks going from year two to year three that

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Speaker 2: allows you to break out and win Most Improved Player.

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Speaker 1: I was in I was in Denver.

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Speaker 3: I walked into a grocery store and I pick up

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Speaker 3: a magazine and I've thumbed through it and I saw

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Speaker 3: my the Denver nuggets, and it was a right up

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Speaker 3: on me, a little brief right up saying that.

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Speaker 1: I was a bust. And that's really what click for me.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've been training all of this time, and

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Speaker 3: I said, you know what, I'm not going out like that.

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Speaker 3: And so I started calling people to fly in. I

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Speaker 3: started getting on the stab mass for about an hour.

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Speaker 3: I started changing my diet and I would fly more

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Speaker 3: than more than one guy and about two three guys

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Speaker 3: in the whole time.

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Speaker 1: And I just for me is I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: that to be my lego, let's see at all.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing to click for me, because no

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Speaker 3: one wants to be called the bust.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember the other thing you just asked me.

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Speaker 3: You said something else that I wanted to respond to.

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Speaker 3: Daniel came in. Yeah, Daniel came in and we're in

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Speaker 3: the locker room and he said, look, as far as

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Speaker 3: I'm concerned, the slatest claim, it's yours to lose. And

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Speaker 3: I was still kind of skeptical because you hear, I

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Speaker 3: just went through man two years.

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Speaker 1: I'm just when I said it was brutal, it was brutal.

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Speaker 3: It got to the point that it was personal because

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Speaker 3: I remember one time being on the bench and it

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Speaker 3: was the last game of the season.

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Speaker 1: My mother came to that game and Paul West said,

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Speaker 1: it sat and you didn't get into the whole game,

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Speaker 1: and he kneeled by me. He looked at me.

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Speaker 3: He looked at the player next to me. He looked

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Speaker 3: at me, looked at the player next to me. He

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Speaker 3: looked at me, and he pointed to the other player

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Speaker 3: while looking at me, saying go in. And I chuckled,

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Speaker 3: and I said to him while looking out on the

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Speaker 3: at the court, because I wasn't gonna make a scene,

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Speaker 3: and I just giggled because at that time I started

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Speaker 3: to change the dynamic of how I was playing to

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Speaker 3: the point where fans began.

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Speaker 1: To say put Raoul in, put Raoul. And I had

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Speaker 1: a short window.

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Speaker 3: If I would make two or three, he would either

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Speaker 3: lead me in or take me out.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 3: He started taking me out when I make two or three,

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Speaker 3: and fans started noticing that.

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Speaker 1: And I remember when he did that.

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Speaker 3: I was looking out and I said, I giggled, and

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Speaker 3: I said, that's okay.

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'll have the last laugh. When

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Speaker 1: it's all I said and done, I'll be here when

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Speaker 1: you long gone, and he will You could just see if.

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Speaker 3: He was on a if he was a poddle water

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Speaker 3: on a stove, well you could see the fumes is coming.

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Speaker 3: And that's what happened that next year. That summer they

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Speaker 3: fired him. They brought in Dan Daniels said the slatest clean,

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Speaker 3: I will steal, kind of hesitant if he was going

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Speaker 3: to keep his word, but he did and that's the

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Speaker 3: year that ended up. I think average nineteen or so six,

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Speaker 3: it's just whatever it was and got the most improved.

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Speaker 2: The last thing I want to ask you about the

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Speaker 2: bad stretches is Michael Adams, a guy that you look

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Speaker 2: back at the history books and you know he he

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Speaker 2: becomes the third player in history to average twenty six

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Speaker 2: points a game in tennis is per game and those

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Speaker 2: other two players are Oscar Robertson and Tiny Archibald. And

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Speaker 2: again no disrespect to Michael Adams. He had a green light.

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Speaker 2: But does that kind of compound even more when you're

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Speaker 2: sitting on the bench and you see a guy who's

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Speaker 2: kind of playing like you were allowed to in college,

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Speaker 2: like green light, do whatever you want. And for some

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Speaker 2: players that's good. For some players, maybe not what was

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Speaker 2: your perspective of that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't like it. And a correction, Michael,

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Speaker 1: Michael Adams didn't have a green light. He had fluorescling

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Speaker 1: like he could shoot it pretty much when he wanted it.

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Speaker 3: But it got to the point where we were be

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Speaker 3: in practice sometimes and I started feeling some kind of way,

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Speaker 3: especially when I started getting in street and we were

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Speaker 3: in Dallas. And that's another thing to click, because when

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Speaker 3: people start talking as if though because they're not playing

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Speaker 3: you right. Sometimes when you're not getting played, there's this

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Speaker 3: notion that players think that you don't have it and

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Speaker 3: you lost it because they're trying to play you like

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Speaker 3: a robot. And I remember being in Dallas and he

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Speaker 3: started talking right, and I felt, I felt slight, I

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Speaker 3: felt insultied. Don't get it twisted because they not playing me,

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Speaker 3: they think that I ain't got it. And so I

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Speaker 3: start going at it and bractice and I'm not a

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Speaker 3: guy to talk. But as I'm going at him, I'm

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Speaker 3: running off at the mouse. I said, man, you can't,

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Speaker 3: you can't guard me, you know, don't don't ever think

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Speaker 3: that you can guard me.

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Speaker 1: And then I said, and then I'm pointing at them

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Speaker 1: because you know they they're instigating this stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I look at the coaches and I said, and

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Speaker 3: don't let them get you in trouble, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: because I know what I'm capable of. And some matter,

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Speaker 3: having the height to where you don't have to look

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Speaker 3: over your shoulder matter.

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Speaker 2: Well, all right, So I promised that was the last

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Speaker 2: question I was going to ask. For the first few years.

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Speaker 2: It gets better temporarily. In Denver ninety three ninety four,

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Speaker 2: you make the playoffs for the first time, number eight seed,

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Speaker 2: You got a new new logo, new jerseys. Things are

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Speaker 2: looking up in Denver, eight seed in the playoffs, you

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Speaker 2: got the sixty three win one seed Sonics. You go

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Speaker 2: down two to zero in the first round, best of five,

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Speaker 2: and you know statistically that means you're going to lose,

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Speaker 2: and even more so, you're the eight seed going up

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Speaker 2: against the one seed, so you're definitely gonna lose, right.

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Speaker 2: Uh you don't. You actually win the next three games.

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Speaker 2: You become the first eight seed to be the number

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Speaker 2: one seed in the playoffs.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: What are your what are your best memories from from

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Speaker 2: that five game series against Seattle?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Exactly what you said, people counting us out and I

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Speaker 3: thinking that we're gonna have a chance. I think we

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Speaker 3: ended up losing the first couple or so, and then

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Speaker 3: we just went on.

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Speaker 1: We went on a tear and and and upset them.

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Speaker 1: I think you said, well, the first eight seed to

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Speaker 1: be the first seed, right. But but the thing.

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Speaker 3: I do remember is this man and I and I

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00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 3: feel I still feel when I look back, it was

337
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 3: a sign of them maturity. But my mind was just

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00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 3: where it was at the time. I had been to

339
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 3: Hodge the previous year. You know, I wanted to go

340
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 3: to Hidge the second in a row, and so I

341
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 3: was I wasn't like I guess I wasn't rowing the game,

342
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Speaker 3: but my heart wasn't in it.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 3: And because I was like, man, I want to go

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Speaker 3: back to Mecca, you know, I want to I want

346
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Speaker 3: to experience that one more time.

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Speaker 1: Because I began to read and learning more, and and.

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Speaker 3: I knew that if I didn't know that year, because

349
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Speaker 3: the way it goes, it comes close every year, it'll

350
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Speaker 3: be a long time.

351
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Speaker 1: Before I had that opportunity again. So I was like, secretly, man,

352
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 1: I was pissed off. When we want you know, if no, no,

353
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Speaker 1: if you're looking at the video. Man, I'm like a

354
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Speaker 1: good game, good game. But then my min, I'm like.

355
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 2: To Kenvy's to Kenvy's crying on the court and happiness right,

356
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: and I'm.

357
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,399
Speaker 3: Like not and now we want to play, now we

358
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 3: want to come back. But afterwards I got I got

359
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,360
Speaker 3: mad at myself. I said, because you know, I'm looking

360
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 3: at the Quran, and as a verst of all, I said,

361
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 3: which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?

362
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,360
Speaker 1: And so he gives us these abilities and here it is.

363
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Speaker 3: You know, I should, I should try to maximize all

364
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Speaker 3: of what he's given me.

365
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Speaker 1: And I'm not doing that.

366
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Speaker 3: And I felt bad about that. Then I said, you

367
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 3: know what, let me come on and and and try

368
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 3: to just pick it up. But I remember that out

369
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 3: of everything, I remember that feeling of wanting to go

370
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 3: to Hodge and didn't feel and regret after the fact

371
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 3: that I didn't really put everything I had into it.

372
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 1: But it's good that we won, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, as a result of I mean, great that you

374
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,439
Speaker 2: want And a reminder for us as fans, we have

375
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 2: no idea what is going through players' minds in the time,

376
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 2: So just enjoy the game, all right, ninety four. You

377
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 2: end up losing to Utah in seven in round two,

378
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 2: but ninety four first taste of the playoffs, ninety four

379
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,360
Speaker 2: you get back again, you lose, and then ninety five

380
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 2: ninety six, which ultimately ends up being your your last

381
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 2: season in Denver, probably your best statistical year when you

382
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,159
Speaker 2: were playing. I think what strikes me when you go

383
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 2: back and look at that team is that that was

384
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 2: like you had a lot of talent on that team.

385
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 2: It was yourself, it was to Kenby, it was his

386
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 2: second year. Jalen Rose, rookie, Antonio mcdce dale ellis we hear,

387
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 2: and I think today we're kind of used to teams

388
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 2: kind of forming in one season and becoming a contender.

389
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: It's what we've been realized too with super teams and

390
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 2: free agency and trades. But I think, you know, you

391
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: need two, three four years to play together to really

392
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 2: develop it and develop that chemistry. When you think back

393
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,400
Speaker 2: on that ninety five ninety six team, do you think

394
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 2: if that team had more time together and was able

395
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 2: to develop it, it would have been a perennial playoff

396
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 2: contender and maybe even a contender in the West.

397
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,120
Speaker 3: No question, no question, Like you just said, we had

398
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 3: talent Man Dale Dale Ellis could float, I shoot the ball. Uh,

399
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,239
Speaker 3: you know, de cam Bay was a force underneath. You know,

400
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 3: mcdys was improven every year.

401
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 1: He can shoot it, he can he can play down

402
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: down low blog shots. Uh. We had Brian Stiff, tough

403
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 1: as nails.

404
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, great role players at the

405
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: same time, Reggie Williams, no question man.

406
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 1: We and and that's the thing that upset me after.

407
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 3: What happened, that it broke us up with all the

408
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 3: potential that we had because.

409
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 1: Of that that one you know, that that one decision.

410
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was a great year. It started off

411
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 3: and really great for us and for myself. I definitely

412
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 3: for myself as well. And then it just it.

413
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 1: Went south and never bounce back.

414
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

415
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 2: I mean, my favorite part of yours, of this season

416
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: for you is that when you look at the guards

417
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: that made the Western Conference All Star Team this season

418
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 2: ninety six, it was Gary Payton, John Stockton, and Jason Kidd.

419
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 2: When you go back and look at your games against

420
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: Gary Payton, John Stockton, and Jason Kidd, you hang fifty

421
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,719
Speaker 2: one on Stockton, you hang thirty eight on Kid, and

422
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: you hang or thirty nine on Kid Sorry, and then

423
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 2: twenty eight on Peyton. Is there like a heightened sense

424
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 2: of you know, people think that these are the All Stars,

425
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: But I think it's that I mean, I think I

426
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 2: know what you're going to say in that every game

427
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 2: is maybe the same, But is there a little chip

428
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 2: on your shoulder, like, Hey, I'm doing this against them

429
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: like this like this is.

430
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 3: Me Let me well, let me just say this every game. Look,

431
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 3: it sounds good in theory. Generally speaking, when you come

432
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 3: out your your mindset is to be dominant, that's your intentions.

433
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 3: Doesn't always work out that way. Your mindset is to

434
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 3: be dominant every time you step on the floor. You

435
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 3: want to be the best.

436
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: One out there. However, we're human.

437
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: When you know that you're playing against a Michael Jordan

438
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 3: and Gary Payton and they've got they've got that label

439
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 3: behind them, you can't help it. It automatically, you know.

440
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: Lifts the bar, you know what I mean? Uh, because

441
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,199
Speaker 1: they're not considered normal dudes. And and uh, I was

442
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: at I was at.

443
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 3: The stage man too, a part of the systems matter.

444
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 3: You know, I've gotten in great shape. You know my

445
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: win was different, My my my my explosion, my speed increased.

446
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: But also an important factor was they left me alone, right,

447
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 3: They weren't trying to police me as much.

448
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:05,959
Speaker 1: And that makes a difference.

449
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 3: When you got a guy that can get it off

450
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 3: the dribble, he can come off screens, he can come

451
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 3: off you know, picking rolls and get his own shot.

452
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 3: And sometimes the worst thing a coach can do, or

453
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 3: anybody can do, is put you, you know, put you

454
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 3: in handcuffs, which oftentimes happens a lot.

455
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: And so there were periods in Denver when they just say.

456
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: They didn't have the handcuffs on me, you know what

457
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: I mean, And that that's when it's like it's a

458
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 3: whole another bag, and I just wish.

459
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: They would do it all the time, you know what

460
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean. But but but it didn't happen because the.

461
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: When we played, and as opposed to now, most of everything,

462
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 3: no matter if the big man was great or not great,

463
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: things going through the big man, right right, you run

464
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 3: in the system of that nowadays. And if you got

465
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 3: a two guard, he's the dude you going through the

466
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 3: two guard. If you got Jordan, you're going through Jordan,

467
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 3: if you and but it was just a different league

468
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: back then.

469
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 2: So one thing that I really learned from the documentary

470
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: and that I'd love for you to speak on is

471
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: just you're, you know, consistent throughout your life your battle

472
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: with Turet syndrome. You were diagnosed at seventeen years old,

473
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 2: but you dealt with it your whole life. And when

474
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 2: you go back and watch some of those games where

475
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 2: you're scoring thirty or scoring fifty, it's almost like the

476
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: defender isn't there. And what you talked about in the

477
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 2: documentary is that even when you're in an open gym,

478
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: when it's one on zero for you and you're in practice,

479
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: you're going against Turet syndrome, and Turet syndrome is not

480
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 2: going to let you leave the gym until you don't

481
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: make ten. But you make ten perfectly. So when I

482
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: go back and watch those, it really is like there

483
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: is nobody in front of you and you are just

484
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: hitting combos and rising and firing. Can you just speak on,

485
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: you know, dealing with Touret syndrome, but also on the

486
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: flip side, how Touret syndrome molded you into one of

487
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: the best scores and shooters ever.

488
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just me with Terrett syndrome.

489
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 3: It was me with two three invisible people in front

490
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: of me, hand in the face, putting about it on me.

491
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: The results that made it. But even the ten shots,

492
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: ten shots wasn't just teen.

493
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 3: It was like after work about hour and a half too.

494
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: Without the red syndrome, I wouldn't be the player that

495
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 3: I became up after out. But it made me come

496
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 3: back and said, no, I gotta do it this way.

497
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: It's gotta down and look this way. If it doesn't

498
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 3: have to stay out there, because if you leave before finishing,

499
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: then then I'm gonna make your day miserable.

500
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna height these these ticks, you know.

501
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 3: And and you couldn't leave without feeling like you You couldn't.

502
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: You couldn't.

503
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: You couldn't leave without feeling like you perfected that and

504
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 3: uh and so you know, the consistency, the precision. It

505
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 3: wasn't enough just to make the shot. It was also

506
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: how you made it. Like if it said to you know,

507
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: it's got to be switching. They got to be swishing,

508
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: all of them. If if they had to go off

509
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: the glass and go in from different namies had to

510
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 3: go off the glass and go off Swiss, it had

511
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: to hit the rim and come back to you each time. Right,

512
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: it had to be every time it had to come

513
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 3: back to you or you have to do it again.

514
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: So this is it took you to the level of

515
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 3: not just being happy with making them.

516
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: A precision shooting, even with the dribbles. You know, if

517
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: you mess up, you got to do it again over

518
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: and over again.

519
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 3: If you deal with the right, he had to do

520
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: it to the left. So definitely, man, definitely, I wouldn't.

521
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 3: I would have never been the player that I became

522
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: without it, for sure.

523
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: I mean it's just incredible, And like I said, you

524
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: go back and you watch and it's clear that you

525
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: know that's that's a different level of attention to detail

526
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 2: and focus. So I'll be running those highlights for the

527
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: fans so they can see for themselves. But it's pretty

528
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: much something like we've never seen before. So kind of

529
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: kind of wrapping up this season. March of ninety six,

530
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: there's a radio call into a Denver sports station and

531
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: they say, hey, you know, I noticed this. My mood

532
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: guy is not standing for the national anthem, And just

533
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: like that, it's like a fuse is lit, you know,

534
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: a match is dropped on. Gas becomes the biggest story

535
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: in sports that my mood abdua roof is, you know,

536
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: sitting or refusing to stand for the national anthem. But

537
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: what you explained in the dock and how how it

538
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 2: went down is that this wasn't an instant thing. You

539
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: had been sitting for quite some time. Can you just

540
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: the best that you can kind of talk us through

541
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: the timetable of when you decided not to stand, why

542
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: you did that, and then when you ultimately got suspended

543
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: from the Nuggets and your time in Denver was over.

544
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

545
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: When I became a whistler, I began to We had

546
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: Ramadan that came around.

547
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: I had to read. I didn't.

548
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 3: I thought it was obligatory, but it was highly recommended

549
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: to read the whole Bran During that month I ended

550
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 3: up reading Kan in the process of reading, and I'm

551
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: coming across a lot of.

552
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: Verses and the history of.

553
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: Profits about resistance and voting and standing up for justice.

554
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: And just love and all of these things.

555
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 3: After you said that, God noticed and he came to

556
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: me and he said, hey, somebody wanted somebody want to.

557
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: He said, somebody want to.

558
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: Uh ask you about you know, they notice you haven't

559
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: stand and mind you it was like four months or

560
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: so previous year.

561
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: I haven't been doing it, and then all of a sudden,

562
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: he uh, he come to ask me that question. The

563
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: next day, I come to the gym. It's it's it's

564
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's what do you call it?

565
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: Uh. Journalists are like, it's like a uh oh, my

566
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,479
Speaker 3: goodness flooded.

567
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: They're asking me questions.

568
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: I'm thinking they're in there for the Shack show and

569
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: the yeah you know, because because still like when Michael

570
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: Jordan would come to be a whole bunch of journalists

571
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: that day, I want to interview Michael and Shaq was

572
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: a big thing.

573
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: And they sit me down and that's when they hit

574
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: me with the question.

575
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, in my head like oh this And

576
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: so I just spoke my concert and next thing, you know,

577
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: I come back that night.

578
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: I have to play them. And that's when Jim Gillan said, hey, man,

579
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: Bernie wants to see you in his office.

580
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 3: I went down and he said, man, the NBA called.

581
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 3: They want to suspend you and find you. If you

582
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 3: don't stand what do you say? I said, I'm not

583
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 3: gonna do it.

584
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: That's when he got on it. He said, well, because

585
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: two people from the NBA want to talk to you. Mentioned.

586
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: They got on the phone, they spoke with me.

587
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: They shared their ideas and stories in this context, I said,

588
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: that story doesn't apply to me, right, So I said,

589
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna stand.

590
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: And that's when they I'm thinking, like I said before, Man,

591
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: that's gonna be.

592
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: An active legislation. They're gonna have to go to a

593
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 3: bureaucratic process.

594
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: It's gonna take days. I've never been fined before in

595
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: my life, never been suspended. And he said no, the

596
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: fine starts today. I said what, And so I said, well,

597
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: can I go and uh just support the team in

598
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: the stands? He said no, they don't want you on

599
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: the premises. No problem.

600
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: That's when I go down, tell the teammate the ones

601
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: that were there not outside, and before you know, like

602
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 3: by the time I got home, it was global.

603
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: That's very well, and that's what did it.

604
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: So just one or two more questions. I mean, so

605
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: this happens pretty much. Days after the ninety six season.

606
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: You're traded to Sacramento, you spend a few years there,

607
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: then you go overseas, and then you're back for Vancouver

608
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: and then that's it, you know, I think we tread.

609
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: We kind of use this word lightly today blackballed for

610
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: certain players, but I mean there's no denying you. You

611
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: were blackballed from the NBA. The NBA did not want

612
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: my mood abdul Roof in the NBA. So as this

613
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: is all going down, this four or five year process,

614
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: I can only imagine what's going on through your head.

615
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: Was there like a dominant emotion at the time? Was

616
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: it anger? Was it sadness? Was it questioning? How are

617
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: you just kind of comprehending everything that's going down in

618
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: this three, four or five year window.

619
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: A lot was going through my mind.

620
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: Initially I didn't want to jump to the because you

621
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: said a lot of things are used loosely, right, And

622
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: I didn't want to jump to the black ball.

623
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: Reason. It's just like, it's just like we live in

624
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: a world is very racist, right.

625
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: Nobody can deny that, And even sometimes decisions we make

626
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: so ingrained in us, we don't realize sometimes just things

627
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: that we're doing on racist or racial reason, but not

628
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: everything that happens to us. A white guy does it,

629
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: something does is labeled racist, right, but we're quick to

630
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: just why you're racist? And so sometimes if something don't

631
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: happen like like you like it.

632
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: In the NBA, we.

633
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: Quick to want to say, no, you're black balled me, right,

634
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: But after I started.

635
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: Looking at it, I'm like, you know what, man.

636
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: I'm starting to pay attention to patterns and I start

637
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: and his decreased. And then, you know, a lot of

638
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 3: times journalists would come to me, especially at that time,

639
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: because I'm still like in my pride, I'm just coming

640
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: off of season putting numbers up right before being traded,

641
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: and they were why why aren't you playing? Why aren't

642
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 3: you playing? It's like no, hardly no journalist would ask

643
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: me questions that. Then I would hear coaches, right, people

644
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: will come back and tell me, yeah, man, Tom Johonovitch

645
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: and other coaches like, man, why aren't they playing this guy?

646
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: You know, we set up our defenses to reguard against them, X,

647
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: Y and Z. And then they come out with this, uh,

648
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: this this special on TV about the top free throw

649
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: shooters in the NBA.

650
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 1: I'm still and they don't show me noe time. I'm like, oh,

651
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like this sounds like there's collusion

652
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: going on here.

653
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: And uh, That's when I started realizing I say, you

654
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: know what, man, this is Uh, it's definitely it's this.

655
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: There's a network, because there's always a network.

656
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: And then when my agent at the time he had

657
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: called Phoenix Sons cor Angelo.

658
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: With the and.

659
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: Of Sphoenix, and before he can finish the statement, but hey,

660
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: my mood is, you know, on we're not interested and

661
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: it has nothing to do with his basketball leader like man,

662
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: I wish I'd have had that, like you know, recorded

663
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: from the statue, oh man, and and another GM and

664
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: the same thing like man, if you would be making.

665
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: But what happened to him has nothing to do with basketball.

666
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: So it's known that.

667
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: The thing is that nobody has been willing to to

668
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: say it publicly, right, And I get it, you know,

669
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: they're protecting their job.

670
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: They don't want to lose that. Who wants to I

671
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: didn't want to stop.

672
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: Playing with the NBA my voice to be controlled either, right,

673
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: you know. And so that's that's how it all kind

674
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: of went down. And and so all of those things

675
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: were and it was frustrating because you spend more, you

676
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: spend the majority of your life, man, training and honing

677
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: your skills to get to this level. And just because

678
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 3: I say something that you don't like. Not that it's untrue,

679
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: it's very much true. Look, academics, you know, top academics

680
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 3: in IVY League schools talk about these things, and you're

681
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: going to You're going to destroy my career as a result.

682
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: See that's criminal to me, right, And so it will take.

683
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: And there was a moment, man, when I.

684
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Was openly bitter.

685
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: I'm still bitter because as long as I think there's

686
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: injustices and things haven't been been resolved.

687
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to let that go.

688
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: And it's just not about me that a lot of players,

689
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: for one reason or another, that have been excommunicator. The

690
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: prime example when I was in Denver, they had a

691
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: guy named Darnelle Mee Darnelle.

692
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: Mean, this is how people are used often and this

693
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: is what a lot of people don't see. He got injured.

694
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: He had like a half fraction, and that's a serious

695
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 3: I forget with it, because serious, serious faction. They ended up,

696
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 3: you know, like putting. And what they'll do, they'll put

697
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: peer pressure on it. They'll find veterans, they'll find people

698
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 3: in the league constantly.

699
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: Hey hey, hey, you need to play, you need to play.

700
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: Come on now, I'm hurt man, leave me alone, right,

701
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: and what happens, you'll you'll if you're not strong enough,

702
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: you'll feel pressured to go out there.

703
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: When you're not ready.

704
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 3: But what they did was they ended up he had

705
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 3: to have a rod put it in his leg.

706
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: When he had put it in his leg, he still

707
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: wasn't ready.

708
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 3: Right when he got on the court and showed that

709
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 3: he would play, they cut him and got rid of it, right,

710
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: And he should have stayed there because they would have

711
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: had to keep him on until right.

712
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: But this is kype of the stuff that they do.

713
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: And you learn that.

714
00:34:51,440 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 3: You learn that, you learn that, you learn that there's a.

715
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: Lot of.

716
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 3: Diabolical behavior going and so it's hard to trust people.

717
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: Man, it's hard to trust people.

718
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: Nasty business, yeah, for sure. So again, wrapping up, thank

719
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: you for your time. I think just touching on everything

720
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: that you said, I think you know, this is a

721
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: story that clearly the NBA does not want to tell.

722
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: So it's great that you've been able to project and

723
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,479
Speaker 2: tell exactly what happened. It's happening on showtime. Go watch

724
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: it now, Mamoda. I really appreciate your time. Congratulations on

725
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 2: doc and be well, my friend. Thank you likewise, doeve Man,

726
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: that is a wrap forgotten seasons with my mood Abdul

727
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: rahoof definitely one of my favorite and I think the

728
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: most important stories that I've told so far on this podcast.

729
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: If you like that one, be sure to drop a

730
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 2: rating and a review. Like I said at the top,

731
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: I actually dropped a bonus episode piggybacking off of this interview,

732
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: I broke down on the downfall of the Denver Nuggets

733
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: following abdul Ahuf's exit in nineteen ninety six. Shortly after

734
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: he left, they transformed into one of the worst teams

735
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: in NBA history. Definitely check that one out and let

736
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: me know what you think of the bonus episode. I'll

737
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: keep running that. If you guys like it, shoot me

738
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: a DM on Instagram with your thoughts. I'll be back

739
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: here in a few weeks. Appreciate all of the love

740
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: and the support. Until then, Peace,