WEBVTT - Michael Bamberger Reflects on To the Linksland 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.920 In a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.280 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.239 Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:38.000 the hump. Welcome to the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. I'm 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.920 Garrett Morrison, and today Michael Bamberger is on the show. 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.400 The Occasion is the republication of Michael's great book to 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.839 the Links Land. Thirtieth anniversary edition of this book is 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.200 going on sale next week. It's currently available for pre order, 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.360 and I highly recommend that you get yourself a copy. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:58.440 This is one of those golf books that you have 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.720 to read. It'll put you under its spell, draw you 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.559 into its world, and rekindle your enthusiasm for the game. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.120 It's been doing that for the past three decades for readers, 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.440 and I'm sure it will continue to do it for 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.200 many more decades. Basically, the book is an account of 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.280 Michael Bamberger's quest to find the soul of the game 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.960 in Europe in nineteen ninety one. First, he caddies on 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.199 the European Tour for Peter Terra Vanan and crosses paths 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.920 with players like Ian Wusnam and Sebby Biasteros. Then he 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.760 sets off with his then new wife on a personal 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.840 journey through Scotland to play links golf. So that's the 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.720 subject of my conversation with Michael today. But really this 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.319 is just an opportunity, an excuse to talk to one 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.480 of my writing idols, somebody who's byline I've followed since 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.440 I was a teenager. Michael is one of the most 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.160 distinctive sports writers. Right. You could put a paragraph of 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:54.680 his in front of me and I'd be able to 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.760 link it to him almost immediately because his voice is 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.960 so individual. So this is a big deal for me 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.480 to get to interview him. He joined me from an 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.200 outdoor setting, so you'll hear some sounds of nature and 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.160 the recording. I like to think this provides some uniqueness, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.720 and honestly, I'm just impressed that he was able to 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.520 set up a hotspot that actually kept us connected. So 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.760 big thanks to Michael. That interview is coming up now 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.720 somewhat appropriately, this episode is brought to you by Golf 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.360 in Ireland. If you want to take a to the 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.720 Linksland style odyssey. The island of Ireland is one of 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.320 the best choices for a destination. It's a golfer's paradise, 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.800 with over four hundred courses and one third of the 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:40.800 world's true links. Ireland also has exceptional championship courses surrounded 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:45.560 by epic landscapes. These include Royal County Down and Royal 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.080 Port Rush. A portion of the Friday team is actually 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.480 visiting Northern Ireland and seeing those spots right now. You'll 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.200 also be able to see both courses on TV in 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.760 the next couple of years. This September, County Down will 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.040 host that amjin Irish Open, and in twenty twenty five 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.760 the Open Championship. We'll go back to Port Rush. If 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.679 you decide to go to some of these courses, you'll 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.799 also discover some wonderful hospitality. There's no better place to 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.360 finish a day of golf than the confines of a 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.720 great pub where you can relax and make new friends. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.440 All you gotta do to start planning your trip is 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.880 go to Ireland dot com slash golf again. That's Ireland 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.480 dot com slash golf. All right, let's get to my 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:36.920 interview with Michael Bamberger. All right, I'm here with Michael Bamberger. Michael, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:38.360 thank you for being on the podcast. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.880 Thank you. Here's a relative term. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.160 Yeah, well, describe where you are right now. 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.320 In fact, well, I am at the country Club of 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.840 winter Haven, winter Haven, Florida. It's Rehys Jones Course designed 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.760 with another fellow whose name I can't recall, and it 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.720 is just a lovely setting. I think the Red Sox 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.520 maybe used to train here. I know years ago. I 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.040 was here for baseball and there's an EPSOM tour event. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:04.520 For those who don't know what the EPSOM tour is. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.840 What Cornfrairiy is to the PJ tour, Not Cornfrairiy. Is 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.480 that what they call it now? Cornfrey? Yeah, what cornfrairie 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.320 is to the PJ Tour, EPSOM is to LPG tour. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.799 And I was looking enough to be invited to play 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:18.600 in a pro M today and that's what I'm going 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:18.880 to do. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:19.960 Excellent. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:24.800 I'm also lucky to be invited onto this Garrett Morrison podcast. 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.080 Someone actually seems to read a lot of books based 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.320 on the bookshelves behind you, so thanks so much for 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:31.800 having me. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.880 Well, we were just joking about this before the podcast 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.039 came on, and I told you that I point my 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.320 camera at the books just to fool people into thinking 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.599 that I'm smart. But those books are all for show. 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.880 But one book that I have read is To the 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.800 links Land, and it's being republished very soon. Here, can 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.440 you give me an idea of why it's being republished now. 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.000 It's being republished only because I've got a wildly enthusiasm 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:05.680 atic young editor named Jophie Jofie, who works for Simon 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.080 and Schuster, and he's done so well at Simon and 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.720 Schuster that they've given him his own imprint, and the 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:16.360 imprint is called Avid Reader Press, and so he has 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.920 some liberty to do things that he wants to do, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:24.480 including republishing super obscure golf books from his childhood that 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.000 he would like to still see have life. That would 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:28.839 be the short version. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.479 I'm not sure that To the links Land is super 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.840 obscure at this point, but we will get into that. 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.480 Why don't we go back to the to the beginning 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.920 of this project. You know, it says the thirtieth anniversary edition, 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.480 but I think it's in fact the thirty second anniversary 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.760 of the publication and the thirty third anniversary of this 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.720 endeavor that you undertook. So tell me about where you 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.280 were in your life when you decided to take on 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.880 the project that would become. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.880 To the You had a high math SAT score, didn't you. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.000 I mean, my verbal score was a little bit higher. 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.560 I see what you're doing here. In nineteen ninety, my wife, 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.080 Christina and I got married. I was a baseball writer 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.760 for the Philadelphia Choirer, not a very good one, and 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.120 Christine was an advertising executive in New York. And we 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.920 got married on Shelter Island, on Long Island, and we 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.640 were looking to do something adventurous when we could while 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.000 we could before maggot, excuse me, before mortgage and kids 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.200 and all those other things. And I had already canted 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.520 once on the PGA. Jordan written a book about that, 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.640 and I was enamored with the European too. I read 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.799 Golf World very closely, and Golf World covered the European 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:49.920 Tour well, and it was Seve at the height of 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:53.800 his powers, a lot of the ball lusm Nick Faldo, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:07:00.920 Bernhard Langer and you know, Colin Montgomery, and very supporting characters. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.560 And I'm using the word intentionally playing. So I thought 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.279 I could somehow hook onto that tour and caddy there 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.160 in caddying these national championships in Belgium and Italy and 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:18.680 Ireland and Portugal and Scotland and other places. How fun 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.320 would that be? And what a great way to get 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.120 our married life off to a start. So I wrote 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.400 a letter to a Yale grad who was playing the 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.480 European Tour with middling success, named Peter Terra Maynan, and 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.280 he was willing to take me on on an experimental basis, 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.800 And on that basis, off we went. I took a 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.640 leave from my job and Christine quit hers, and as newlyweds, 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.640 off we went on this adventure, really having no idea 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.240 where we were going and what it would be like, 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.520 or how long it would last, of Peter or anything else. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.000 Was it part of the plan from the beginning to 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.200 end up leaving the European Tour at the Scottish Open 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:04.160 and go on this journey across Scotland playing golf yourself? 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.000 Was that part of the concept from the beginning. 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.480 So you know, I'd really have to go back in time, 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.640 but that sounds right, because I do remember. I do 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.440 remember writing out a schedule or maybe photocopying the schedule 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.760 and putting into my wallet. And I think it did 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.360 conclude with the British Open mid July, and then after 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.320 that we would go to Scotland. So yes, so the 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.160 degree we had a plan. Yes, I think that was 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:27.400 I think that was the plan. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.640 Well, I'm curious about that because the book has this 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.000 really interesting structure where where it's basically two parts. One 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.120 part is catting on the European Tour and the next 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:41.760 part is going through Scotland on this kind of magical, 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.280 wonderful journey of links golf. I wonder, you know, it 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.560 makes it such a great and rich book that way. 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.400 But I wonder why you didn't just write a book 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.400 about catting on the European Tour, or just write a 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.400 book about playing golf in Scotland, because those would have 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.240 been maybe the conventional ways to go. Those seem like 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.760 maybe two different books on their own, but you've put 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.439 them together here. I wonder why you did that. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.680 Yeah, it's a terrific question, and I don't have an 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:14.559 answer except for that. You know, the whole thing was 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.079 the spirit of adventure, and we would go where we 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.600 would go. And I guess in part I had done 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.160 the catting thing and written about it once, so I 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.800 didn't want to do that again. I was always very 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.079 moved by Michael Murphy's Golf in the Kingdom, where he explores, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.199 you know, semi fictionally, his own golf in scott in Scotland, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:36.920 and I thought, how neat would it be if I 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.320 could try to do something similar in a nonfiction way. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.599 I didn't have. I didn't have a Shiva's Irons in 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.599 mind at all, but I did have in mind the 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:53.920 idea of exploring links golf in Scotland, So yes, you're right, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.160 it was. It's sort of two books in one, but 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.199 it's kind of a skinny book to begin with. For 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.880 those who I don't like the long books, this one's not. 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.120 But those are good questions which I have no answer 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.440 except that, as they say, it seemed like a good 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:11.320 idea at the time. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.319 Well, I mean, I think it was a great idea. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.600 I love that the book is these two things at once, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.400 because what you're tempted to do is kind of compare 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.600 and contrast them. And you knows, as you wrote the book, 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:29.040 did you you know you don't compare and contrast them 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.559 in a kind of pat way. Where you say this 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.559 is the real spirit of golf journeying through Scotland and 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.040 the European Tour is a professional golf is some kind 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.760 of bastardized version of it. You're not that simplistic about it. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.679 But you know, as you were writing it, did you 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.880 come up with a kind of working theory about how 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.839 these two sides of golf relate to each other? 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.720 I guess, well, I never thought about it as you're 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.360 framing it until this conversation, but I would definitely say 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.800 the spirit of golf on the European Tour as I 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.079 experienced it, and the spirit of golf as amateurs played 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:11.079 it in Scotland there was a great connection between the two. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.240 So now today if you were trying to do something 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.480 similar about let's say live golf or even the PJA 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:24.280 Tour versus you know, amateur golf at ely, it would 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.400 feel very different. But in that period it didn't. The 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.000 European Tour was rough, hewn and what can I do 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.840 to stay out here and survive? And golf in Scotland 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:41.199 was inexpensive and brown and hard in the couple different senses. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.640 So I felt one paved the way to the other. 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.560 And as I'm thinking about your question, it's really an 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.719 interesting one. I think I think I could take what 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.160 I learned about golf catting for Peter Turvaine and seeing 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.920 the European Tour up close and try to apply it 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.120 to some degree to my own golf. So I think 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:03.959 one paved the way for the other. 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.320 Well, let's dig in a little bit with your experience 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.839 on the European Tour. For those who are familiar with 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.160 the with the DP World Tour as it's called now 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.319 in the twenty first century, how would you say it 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.360 was different about thirty years ago. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.880 Well, it's night and day. I don't really know much 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.160 about the DP World Tour except for that it's all 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.800 over the place. I'm not saying that in Goojaradi way 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.400 just is. And even in ninety one when I was 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.520 over there, I think they did have one scheduled event 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.599 in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, and I believe it was 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.079 canceled because of the Gulf War. I'm nearly certain of that, 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.440 although I really would have to live it up to check. 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.199 But for the most part, the European Tour was played. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:54.960 This will shock you, Garrett. In Europe and The currencies 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.600 were different in every country because there was no EU. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.199 Travel was rough. Christina and I travel by overnight train, 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.800 which was great. There was overnight ferries, there were overnight 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.640 bus rides. There were higher cars, There are caravans, there were, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:11.920 you know, all sorts of different ways of getting around. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.000 Some players would occasionally caddy for themselves or push or trolley. 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.800 Sebbe was out there, and Sebbe was a golfing god, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.560 but he was propped up by all these working class 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.520 kids who turned pro at eighteen, guys like Richard Boxall, 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.960 David Ferriday and Robert Lee, you know, because you can't 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.079 have a star without a supporting cast, and it had one, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.160 so it was I would say, you know, the conditions 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:47.520 were often semi primitive by American standards, the driving ranges 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.199 and the course and the travel and everything else. The hotels, 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.199 the band of caddies was a bunch of characters. You know, 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.560 everyone was sort of scraping by uh and we were too. 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.839 Christ and I were, you know, even though you know, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.920 we had some cushion, but we were trying to make 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.240 it based on what I was making from Peter as 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:15.800 his caddy. So night and Day is the short answer, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.559 I don't think you can even compare the two. 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:24.560 You chose Peter terra van and as your subject slash employer. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.000 Why did you do that? Did you have a pre 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:28.200 existing connection with him? 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:34.160 No, and chose would be a wild overstatement. You know. 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.720 I begged him to let me come on for a 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.480 couple of weeks, and it's in the book. I think 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:42.760 he said he was going to give me a two 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.080 week trial, maybe a three week one, and then we'll 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.480 see how it goes. He didn't promise anything beyond that. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.560 So my great fortune he made the cuts and both 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.200 events despite my broad ineptitude. I often talk about my 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.680 broad ineptitude, but some you know, there was some connection 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.040 for us as caddy and player as well. I was 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.240 aware of him as an American players, as someone you know, 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.520 probably the I would say, certainly the best golfer in 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:14.000 the history of the Yale University golf team. And I 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.280 could easily put up with Peter's quirks. I enjoyed him. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.520 He was pathologically frugal, and he had all sorts of 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:26.280 interesting theories, and he needed an audience as a receptor 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.680 for these theories. Like he'd hit a good shot and 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:30.800 then he hit another shot, stiff a shot, and then 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:32.880 he'd make a six flitter. And once he said, good 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.320 shots much common groups of two, and I run with 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:38.080 that ever since. As a matter of fact, I saw 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.520 CC Sabbathia, the great left hander the other day yesterday 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.480 at Bay Hill. He's playing in a pro am and 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:46.200 he drove it a mile and then he stiffed a 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.680 wedge and then he made the putt. This guy's always 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.440 going to drive a mile, but it was the wedge 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:51.840 and the putt, and I said, yeah, I used to 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:53.600 carry for a guy who's a good shots must come 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.800 in groups of two. And Sabbathi says, yeah, I like that. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.560 But Peter was always Peter always had things like that 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.160 going on because he's super smart and verbal in a 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:08.000 quirky kind of way. And but anyway, I didn't choose 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.320 I was. There was one guy that I had a 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.680 path that I could maybe write to. He didn't know 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.280 me from Adam and h and who was willing to 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.960 take me on for on this experimental basis. And I'm 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.520 not gonna say we hit it off, but we did okay, 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:23.920 okay enough that he wasn't going to fire me. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.320 Terry Vaynen has these two sides to his character, it 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.360 seems to me from from your portrait of him in 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.720 your book. On the one hand, there is a mystical 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.200 side to him, you know, he he's you don't make 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:38.920 much of it in the book, but he's starting to 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.320 get into into Buddhism. On the other hand, he's a 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.320 very black and white kind of person. It seems economics major, 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.040 somebody who is very into numbers and like it's either 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.640 it's either good or it's bad. There's there's no one between. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.920 You know, golf is a matter of kind of figuring 0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:00.440 out the numbers. And uh it was he kind of 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.400 struggling between those two poles as as you were working 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:03.760 with him. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.280 Yeah, great question. And I have to say it brings 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.240 up something right right away when you say, you know, 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.760 black and white, yes or no, left or right. So 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:14.960 I was guiding for him at the Italian Open, and 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.360 he drives it well and and we're looking at the pinsheet. 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.080 It doesn't in the in the the green's a two 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.720 tiered green and then it's got a gentle slope in 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.960 the middle. And Peter says, go up to the green 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.920 and tell me where the pin is. It's either on 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.919 the back plateau or the front plateau. And I come 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.640 back and say, yeah, it's in the middle, and Peter says, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.840 it's not in the middle. It's either on the back plateau. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.159 I'm over stating here, but this is basically help one 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.840 back plateau or the front plateau can't be in the middle. 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.600 I said, Peter, I, no, I answer your question. It's 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.200 in the middle. And he's like, he hits it on 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.040 the green too, but he comes up the green He's like, yeah, 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.800 you're right, it was in the middle. But it was 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.200 like so memorable here we are thirty two years later, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.520 because it was so rare for him to agree that 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.400 it wasn't one or the other, like it often once 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.320 with him, once I told him we were I often 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:14.480 cite this. I don't know why. Christine and I, my wife, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.440 Christine and I were saying, in a place where you 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.800 could cook breakfast for yourself, and I said, no matter 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.120 how good the eggs are wherever you're eating, they'll never 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.840 be like the eggs you eat at home. And Peter said, yeah, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.720 that's right. And for Peter to casually agree with anything 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.040 was so rare because he could find problems with anything, 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.240 because he was so smart and so analytical. So that 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.520 always stuck all these years later. That sticks to me 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.000 and I think about all the time when I cook 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.920 eggs at home, because I like him to cook on 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.760 intense heat, and I like the edges with a lot 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.280 of butter. And I can hear my wife say, you know, 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.760 turn on the fan right now, and I like the 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.520 edges to be crispy and brown. And then sometimes I'll 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.680 look them over with no heat on. But the point 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.440 is you can't go to it diner and get that. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.320 I know this will bring to mind for some people 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.200 the Larry David episode where he goes to the country 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.800 club with his own eggs, and I have to say, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.200 I can totally understand, because the quality of the eggs 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.960 that you bring from home are very very likely to 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:17.960 be better than the quality of the eggs that the 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.639 country club is going to have. 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.359 Oh my gosh, we need to have an egg section 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.399 of this podcast now, especially considering it is that the 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:31.080 Fried Egg Golf podcast. Oh that's exactly. Yeah, that's a 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:36.600 that's a wonderful story. In any case, these these aspects 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.840 of Terra Vanan's character were so interesting to me, and 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.959 it seemed like he was, you know, to an extent 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.000 when you were working with him, he was not quite 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.320 at peace, right. He hadn't he hadn't won yet. There 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.600 was some struggle going on with him. And that's what 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.560 so many golfers go through, where where they want things 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.680 to be certain, they want things to be black and white. 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.960 They know they can if they just figure it out, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.919 if they just solve the equation, then it's all going 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.920 to be okay. But the fact is golf is a 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.120 lot more chaotic than that. It's not possible to make 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.240 things black and white and golf and this kind of 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.480 going back and forth between those two polls, it seems 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.040 to me is like a big part of just being 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.080 a golfer. And I guess that's just that's not really 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:23.840 a question, it's more of a thesis. But I wonder 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:25.200 if it brings anything to mind for you. 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:31.320 Well, it does, and I would say what you're describing 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.399 is very much a real thing for some golfers, and 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.639 especially in the modern context, like you know, Tiger, it's 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.280 all about the w But for Peter Terra Vaynen and 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.760 my friends Billy Britten and Mike Donald and various others, 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.880 it wasn't all about the win. They weren't going to win. 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.000 Maybe occasionally they might win. They wanted to play good 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.159 enough golf that they could stay out there. So to 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.520 play good enough comp to say out there was to 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.040 constantly try to solve the various and many mysteries of 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.600 the game, like where should the right thumb be when 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.400 when you're putting? I kind of forget al Garbery relate 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:09.959 in his life. Oh, you won't be able to see this. Well, 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.359 they see this, you know, and he had his he 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.360 had his right thumb right down the shaft. And then 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.840 he says in one day, you see that cork. This 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.480 is an eighty vibe. And Corey Paven was cutting great. 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.440 I mean, you're always pretty great. You see see that 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.320 Corey Paven. He's got his right thumb here and he 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.560 moved at a quarter inch. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, that 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.080 will make the difference, because maybe would make the difference. Now, 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.359 Al Gibery was a very accomplished player. No, he was 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:35.840 a mega mega talent, you guys. Peter was not a 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.040 mega mega talent. But I don't think it was unsettling. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.720 I think it was like, man, I'm making a living 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.879 playing professional golf, and I'm going to keep at this 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:52.320 mystery of it. And there was a tremendous I want 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.600 to use the word joy, but it's not like isn't 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.520 this all great? It's more like deeply satisfying to be 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.720 in this really interesting thing where you're trying to figure 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:03.359 it out. And I can very much relate to it 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.919 because I'm trying to do this, you know here at 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.119 sixty three. You know, I'm allows you writer. I'm a 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.840 terrible reporter, but I'm going to try to get better 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.760