Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 2: In a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg,
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg.
Speaker 1: Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of
Speaker 1: the hump. Welcome to the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Garrett Morrison, and today Michael Bamberger is on the show.
Speaker 1: The Occasion is the republication of Michael's great book to
Speaker 1: the Links Land. Thirtieth anniversary edition of this book is
Speaker 1: going on sale next week. It's currently available for pre order,
Speaker 1: and I highly recommend that you get yourself a copy.
Speaker 1: This is one of those golf books that you have
Speaker 1: to read. It'll put you under its spell, draw you
Speaker 1: into its world, and rekindle your enthusiasm for the game.
Speaker 1: It's been doing that for the past three decades for readers,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it will continue to do it for
Speaker 1: many more decades. Basically, the book is an account of
Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger's quest to find the soul of the game
Speaker 1: in Europe in nineteen ninety one. First, he caddies on
Speaker 1: the European Tour for Peter Terra Vanan and crosses paths
Speaker 1: with players like Ian Wusnam and Sebby Biasteros. Then he
Speaker 1: sets off with his then new wife on a personal
Speaker 1: journey through Scotland to play links golf. So that's the
Speaker 1: subject of my conversation with Michael today. But really this
Speaker 1: is just an opportunity, an excuse to talk to one
Speaker 1: of my writing idols, somebody who's byline I've followed since
Speaker 1: I was a teenager. Michael is one of the most
Speaker 1: distinctive sports writers. Right. You could put a paragraph of
Speaker 1: his in front of me and I'd be able to
Speaker 1: link it to him almost immediately because his voice is
Speaker 1: so individual. So this is a big deal for me
Speaker 1: to get to interview him. He joined me from an
Speaker 1: outdoor setting, so you'll hear some sounds of nature and
Speaker 1: the recording. I like to think this provides some uniqueness,
Speaker 1: and honestly, I'm just impressed that he was able to
Speaker 1: set up a hotspot that actually kept us connected. So
Speaker 1: big thanks to Michael. That interview is coming up now
Speaker 1: somewhat appropriately, this episode is brought to you by Golf
Speaker 1: in Ireland. If you want to take a to the
Speaker 1: Linksland style odyssey. The island of Ireland is one of
Speaker 1: the best choices for a destination. It's a golfer's paradise,
Speaker 1: with over four hundred courses and one third of the
Speaker 1: world's true links. Ireland also has exceptional championship courses surrounded
Speaker 1: by epic landscapes. These include Royal County Down and Royal
Speaker 1: Port Rush. A portion of the Friday team is actually
Speaker 1: visiting Northern Ireland and seeing those spots right now. You'll
Speaker 1: also be able to see both courses on TV in
Speaker 1: the next couple of years. This September, County Down will
Speaker 1: host that amjin Irish Open, and in twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: the Open Championship. We'll go back to Port Rush. If
Speaker 1: you decide to go to some of these courses, you'll
Speaker 1: also discover some wonderful hospitality. There's no better place to
Speaker 1: finish a day of golf than the confines of a
Speaker 1: great pub where you can relax and make new friends.
Speaker 1: All you gotta do to start planning your trip is
Speaker 1: go to Ireland dot com slash golf again. That's Ireland
Speaker 1: dot com slash golf. All right, let's get to my
Speaker 1: interview with Michael Bamberger. All right, I'm here with Michael Bamberger. Michael,
Speaker 1: thank you for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Here's a relative term.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, describe where you are right now.
Speaker 2: In fact, well, I am at the country Club of
Speaker 2: winter Haven, winter Haven, Florida. It's Rehys Jones Course designed
Speaker 2: with another fellow whose name I can't recall, and it
Speaker 2: is just a lovely setting. I think the Red Sox
Speaker 2: maybe used to train here. I know years ago. I
Speaker 2: was here for baseball and there's an EPSOM tour event.
Speaker 2: For those who don't know what the EPSOM tour is.
Speaker 2: What Cornfrairiy is to the PJ tour, Not Cornfrairiy. Is
Speaker 2: that what they call it now? Cornfrey? Yeah, what cornfrairie
Speaker 2: is to the PJ Tour, EPSOM is to LPG tour.
Speaker 2: And I was looking enough to be invited to play
Speaker 2: in a pro M today and that's what I'm going
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: Excellent.
Speaker 2: I'm also lucky to be invited onto this Garrett Morrison podcast.
Speaker 2: Someone actually seems to read a lot of books based
Speaker 2: on the bookshelves behind you, so thanks so much for
Speaker 2: having me.
Speaker 1: Well, we were just joking about this before the podcast
Speaker 1: came on, and I told you that I point my
Speaker 1: camera at the books just to fool people into thinking
Speaker 1: that I'm smart. But those books are all for show.
Speaker 1: But one book that I have read is To the
Speaker 1: links Land, and it's being republished very soon. Here, can
Speaker 1: you give me an idea of why it's being republished now.
Speaker 2: It's being republished only because I've got a wildly enthusiasm
Speaker 2: atic young editor named Jophie Jofie, who works for Simon
Speaker 2: and Schuster, and he's done so well at Simon and
Speaker 2: Schuster that they've given him his own imprint, and the
Speaker 2: imprint is called Avid Reader Press, and so he has
Speaker 2: some liberty to do things that he wants to do,
Speaker 2: including republishing super obscure golf books from his childhood that
Speaker 2: he would like to still see have life. That would
Speaker 2: be the short version.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that To the links Land is super
Speaker 1: obscure at this point, but we will get into that.
Speaker 1: Why don't we go back to the to the beginning
Speaker 1: of this project. You know, it says the thirtieth anniversary edition,
Speaker 1: but I think it's in fact the thirty second anniversary
Speaker 1: of the publication and the thirty third anniversary of this
Speaker 1: endeavor that you undertook. So tell me about where you
Speaker 1: were in your life when you decided to take on
Speaker 1: the project that would become.
Speaker 2: To the You had a high math SAT score, didn't you.
Speaker 1: I mean, my verbal score was a little bit higher.
Speaker 2: I see what you're doing here. In nineteen ninety, my wife,
Speaker 2: Christina and I got married. I was a baseball writer
Speaker 2: for the Philadelphia Choirer, not a very good one, and
Speaker 2: Christine was an advertising executive in New York. And we
Speaker 2: got married on Shelter Island, on Long Island, and we
Speaker 2: were looking to do something adventurous when we could while
Speaker 2: we could before maggot, excuse me, before mortgage and kids
Speaker 2: and all those other things. And I had already canted
Speaker 2: once on the PGA. Jordan written a book about that,
Speaker 2: and I was enamored with the European too. I read
Speaker 2: Golf World very closely, and Golf World covered the European
Speaker 2: Tour well, and it was Seve at the height of
Speaker 2: his powers, a lot of the ball lusm Nick Faldo,
Speaker 2: Bernhard Langer and you know, Colin Montgomery, and very supporting characters.
Speaker 2: And I'm using the word intentionally playing. So I thought
Speaker 2: I could somehow hook onto that tour and caddy there
Speaker 2: in caddying these national championships in Belgium and Italy and
Speaker 2: Ireland and Portugal and Scotland and other places. How fun
Speaker 2: would that be? And what a great way to get
Speaker 2: our married life off to a start. So I wrote
Speaker 2: a letter to a Yale grad who was playing the
Speaker 2: European Tour with middling success, named Peter Terra Maynan, and
Speaker 2: he was willing to take me on on an experimental basis,
Speaker 2: And on that basis, off we went. I took a
Speaker 2: leave from my job and Christine quit hers, and as newlyweds,
Speaker 2: off we went on this adventure, really having no idea
Speaker 2: where we were going and what it would be like,
Speaker 2: or how long it would last, of Peter or anything else.
Speaker 1: Was it part of the plan from the beginning to
Speaker 1: end up leaving the European Tour at the Scottish Open
Speaker 1: and go on this journey across Scotland playing golf yourself?
Speaker 1: Was that part of the concept from the beginning.
Speaker 2: So you know, I'd really have to go back in time,
Speaker 2: but that sounds right, because I do remember. I do
Speaker 2: remember writing out a schedule or maybe photocopying the schedule
Speaker 2: and putting into my wallet. And I think it did
Speaker 2: conclude with the British Open mid July, and then after
Speaker 2: that we would go to Scotland. So yes, so the
Speaker 2: degree we had a plan. Yes, I think that was
Speaker 2: I think that was the plan.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious about that because the book has this
Speaker 1: really interesting structure where where it's basically two parts. One
Speaker 1: part is catting on the European Tour and the next
Speaker 1: part is going through Scotland on this kind of magical,
Speaker 1: wonderful journey of links golf. I wonder, you know, it
Speaker 1: makes it such a great and rich book that way.
Speaker 1: But I wonder why you didn't just write a book
Speaker 1: about catting on the European Tour, or just write a
Speaker 1: book about playing golf in Scotland, because those would have
Speaker 1: been maybe the conventional ways to go. Those seem like
Speaker 1: maybe two different books on their own, but you've put
Speaker 1: them together here. I wonder why you did that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a terrific question, and I don't have an
Speaker 2: answer except for that. You know, the whole thing was
Speaker 2: the spirit of adventure, and we would go where we
Speaker 2: would go. And I guess in part I had done
Speaker 2: the catting thing and written about it once, so I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do that again. I was always very
Speaker 2: moved by Michael Murphy's Golf in the Kingdom, where he explores,
Speaker 2: you know, semi fictionally, his own golf in scott in Scotland,
Speaker 2: and I thought, how neat would it be if I
Speaker 2: could try to do something similar in a nonfiction way.
Speaker 2: I didn't have. I didn't have a Shiva's Irons in
Speaker 2: mind at all, but I did have in mind the
Speaker 2: idea of exploring links golf in Scotland, So yes, you're right,
Speaker 2: it was. It's sort of two books in one, but
Speaker 2: it's kind of a skinny book to begin with. For
Speaker 2: those who I don't like the long books, this one's not.
Speaker 2: But those are good questions which I have no answer
Speaker 2: except that, as they say, it seemed like a good
Speaker 2: idea at the time.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think it was a great idea.
Speaker 1: I love that the book is these two things at once,
Speaker 1: because what you're tempted to do is kind of compare
Speaker 1: and contrast them. And you knows, as you wrote the book,
Speaker 1: did you you know you don't compare and contrast them
Speaker 1: in a kind of pat way. Where you say this
Speaker 1: is the real spirit of golf journeying through Scotland and
Speaker 1: the European Tour is a professional golf is some kind
Speaker 1: of bastardized version of it. You're not that simplistic about it.
Speaker 1: But you know, as you were writing it, did you
Speaker 1: come up with a kind of working theory about how
Speaker 1: these two sides of golf relate to each other?
Speaker 2: I guess, well, I never thought about it as you're
Speaker 2: framing it until this conversation, but I would definitely say
Speaker 2: the spirit of golf on the European Tour as I
Speaker 2: experienced it, and the spirit of golf as amateurs played
Speaker 2: it in Scotland there was a great connection between the two.
Speaker 2: So now today if you were trying to do something
Speaker 2: similar about let's say live golf or even the PJA
Speaker 2: Tour versus you know, amateur golf at ely, it would
Speaker 2: feel very different. But in that period it didn't. The
Speaker 2: European Tour was rough, hewn and what can I do
Speaker 2: to stay out here and survive? And golf in Scotland
Speaker 2: was inexpensive and brown and hard in the couple different senses.
Speaker 2: So I felt one paved the way to the other.
Speaker 2: And as I'm thinking about your question, it's really an
Speaker 2: interesting one. I think I think I could take what
Speaker 2: I learned about golf catting for Peter Turvaine and seeing
Speaker 2: the European Tour up close and try to apply it
Speaker 2: to some degree to my own golf. So I think
Speaker 2: one paved the way for the other.
Speaker 1: Well, let's dig in a little bit with your experience
Speaker 1: on the European Tour. For those who are familiar with
Speaker 1: the with the DP World Tour as it's called now
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century, how would you say it
Speaker 1: was different about thirty years ago.
Speaker 2: Well, it's night and day. I don't really know much
Speaker 2: about the DP World Tour except for that it's all
Speaker 2: over the place. I'm not saying that in Goojaradi way
Speaker 2: just is. And even in ninety one when I was
Speaker 2: over there, I think they did have one scheduled event
Speaker 2: in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, and I believe it was
Speaker 2: canceled because of the Gulf War. I'm nearly certain of that,
Speaker 2: although I really would have to live it up to check.
Speaker 2: But for the most part, the European Tour was played.
Speaker 2: This will shock you, Garrett. In Europe and The currencies
Speaker 2: were different in every country because there was no EU.
Speaker 2: Travel was rough. Christina and I travel by overnight train,
Speaker 2: which was great. There was overnight ferries, there were overnight
Speaker 2: bus rides. There were higher cars, There are caravans, there were,
Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of different ways of getting around.
Speaker 2: Some players would occasionally caddy for themselves or push or trolley.
Speaker 2: Sebbe was out there, and Sebbe was a golfing god,
Speaker 2: but he was propped up by all these working class
Speaker 2: kids who turned pro at eighteen, guys like Richard Boxall,
Speaker 2: David Ferriday and Robert Lee, you know, because you can't
Speaker 2: have a star without a supporting cast, and it had one,
Speaker 2: so it was I would say, you know, the conditions
Speaker 2: were often semi primitive by American standards, the driving ranges
Speaker 2: and the course and the travel and everything else. The hotels,
Speaker 2: the band of caddies was a bunch of characters. You know,
Speaker 2: everyone was sort of scraping by uh and we were too.
Speaker 2: Christ and I were, you know, even though you know,
Speaker 2: we had some cushion, but we were trying to make
Speaker 2: it based on what I was making from Peter as
Speaker 2: his caddy. So night and Day is the short answer,
Speaker 2: I don't think you can even compare the two.
Speaker 1: You chose Peter terra van and as your subject slash employer.
Speaker 1: Why did you do that? Did you have a pre
Speaker 1: existing connection with him?
Speaker 2: No, and chose would be a wild overstatement. You know.
Speaker 2: I begged him to let me come on for a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks, and it's in the book. I think
Speaker 2: he said he was going to give me a two
Speaker 2: week trial, maybe a three week one, and then we'll
Speaker 2: see how it goes. He didn't promise anything beyond that.
Speaker 2: So my great fortune he made the cuts and both
Speaker 2: events despite my broad ineptitude. I often talk about my
Speaker 2: broad ineptitude, but some you know, there was some connection
Speaker 2: for us as caddy and player as well. I was
Speaker 2: aware of him as an American players, as someone you know,
Speaker 2: probably the I would say, certainly the best golfer in
Speaker 2: the history of the Yale University golf team. And I
Speaker 2: could easily put up with Peter's quirks. I enjoyed him.
Speaker 2: He was pathologically frugal, and he had all sorts of
Speaker 2: interesting theories, and he needed an audience as a receptor
Speaker 2: for these theories. Like he'd hit a good shot and
Speaker 2: then he hit another shot, stiff a shot, and then
Speaker 2: he'd make a six flitter. And once he said, good
Speaker 2: shots much common groups of two, and I run with
Speaker 2: that ever since. As a matter of fact, I saw
Speaker 2: CC Sabbathia, the great left hander the other day yesterday
Speaker 2: at Bay Hill. He's playing in a pro am and
Speaker 2: he drove it a mile and then he stiffed a
Speaker 2: wedge and then he made the putt. This guy's always
Speaker 2: going to drive a mile, but it was the wedge
Speaker 2: and the putt, and I said, yeah, I used to
Speaker 2: carry for a guy who's a good shots must come
Speaker 2: in groups of two. And Sabbathi says, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2: But Peter was always Peter always had things like that
Speaker 2: going on because he's super smart and verbal in a
Speaker 2: quirky kind of way. And but anyway, I didn't choose
Speaker 2: I was. There was one guy that I had a
Speaker 2: path that I could maybe write to. He didn't know
Speaker 2: me from Adam and h and who was willing to
Speaker 2: take me on for on this experimental basis. And I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna say we hit it off, but we did okay,
Speaker 2: okay enough that he wasn't going to fire me.
Speaker 1: Terry Vaynen has these two sides to his character, it
Speaker 1: seems to me from from your portrait of him in
Speaker 1: your book. On the one hand, there is a mystical
Speaker 1: side to him, you know, he he's you don't make
Speaker 1: much of it in the book, but he's starting to
Speaker 1: get into into Buddhism. On the other hand, he's a
Speaker 1: very black and white kind of person. It seems economics major,
Speaker 1: somebody who is very into numbers and like it's either
Speaker 1: it's either good or it's bad. There's there's no one between.
Speaker 1: You know, golf is a matter of kind of figuring
Speaker 1: out the numbers. And uh it was he kind of
Speaker 1: struggling between those two poles as as you were working
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. And I have to say it brings
Speaker 2: up something right right away when you say, you know,
Speaker 2: black and white, yes or no, left or right. So
Speaker 2: I was guiding for him at the Italian Open, and
Speaker 2: he drives it well and and we're looking at the pinsheet.
Speaker 2: It doesn't in the in the the green's a two
Speaker 2: tiered green and then it's got a gentle slope in
Speaker 2: the middle. And Peter says, go up to the green
Speaker 2: and tell me where the pin is. It's either on
Speaker 2: the back plateau or the front plateau. And I come
Speaker 2: back and say, yeah, it's in the middle, and Peter says,
Speaker 2: it's not in the middle. It's either on the back plateau.
Speaker 2: I'm over stating here, but this is basically help one
Speaker 2: back plateau or the front plateau can't be in the middle.
Speaker 2: I said, Peter, I, no, I answer your question. It's
Speaker 2: in the middle. And he's like, he hits it on
Speaker 2: the green too, but he comes up the green He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right, it was in the middle. But it was
Speaker 2: like so memorable here we are thirty two years later,
Speaker 2: because it was so rare for him to agree that
Speaker 2: it wasn't one or the other, like it often once
Speaker 2: with him, once I told him we were I often
Speaker 2: cite this. I don't know why. Christine and I, my wife,
Speaker 2: Christine and I were saying, in a place where you
Speaker 2: could cook breakfast for yourself, and I said, no matter
Speaker 2: how good the eggs are wherever you're eating, they'll never
Speaker 2: be like the eggs you eat at home. And Peter said, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right. And for Peter to casually agree with anything
Speaker 2: was so rare because he could find problems with anything,
Speaker 2: because he was so smart and so analytical. So that
Speaker 2: always stuck all these years later. That sticks to me
Speaker 2: and I think about all the time when I cook
Speaker 2: eggs at home, because I like him to cook on
Speaker 2: intense heat, and I like the edges with a lot
Speaker 2: of butter. And I can hear my wife say, you know,
Speaker 2: turn on the fan right now, and I like the
Speaker 2: edges to be crispy and brown. And then sometimes I'll
Speaker 2: look them over with no heat on. But the point
Speaker 2: is you can't go to it diner and get that.
Speaker 2: I know this will bring to mind for some people
Speaker 2: the Larry David episode where he goes to the country
Speaker 2: club with his own eggs, and I have to say,
Speaker 2: I can totally understand, because the quality of the eggs
Speaker 2: that you bring from home are very very likely to
Speaker 2: be better than the quality of the eggs that the
Speaker 2: country club is going to have.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we need to have an egg section
Speaker 1: of this podcast now, especially considering it is that the
Speaker 1: Fried Egg Golf podcast. Oh that's exactly. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful story. In any case, these these aspects
Speaker 1: of Terra Vanan's character were so interesting to me, and
Speaker 1: it seemed like he was, you know, to an extent
Speaker 1: when you were working with him, he was not quite
Speaker 1: at peace, right. He hadn't he hadn't won yet. There
Speaker 1: was some struggle going on with him. And that's what
Speaker 1: so many golfers go through, where where they want things
Speaker 1: to be certain, they want things to be black and white.
Speaker 1: They know they can if they just figure it out,
Speaker 1: if they just solve the equation, then it's all going
Speaker 1: to be okay. But the fact is golf is a
Speaker 1: lot more chaotic than that. It's not possible to make
Speaker 1: things black and white and golf and this kind of
Speaker 1: going back and forth between those two polls, it seems
Speaker 1: to me is like a big part of just being
Speaker 1: a golfer. And I guess that's just that's not really
Speaker 1: a question, it's more of a thesis. But I wonder
Speaker 1: if it brings anything to mind for you.
Speaker 2: Well, it does, and I would say what you're describing
Speaker 2: is very much a real thing for some golfers, and
Speaker 2: especially in the modern context, like you know, Tiger, it's
Speaker 2: all about the w But for Peter Terra Vaynen and
Speaker 2: my friends Billy Britten and Mike Donald and various others,
Speaker 2: it wasn't all about the win. They weren't going to win.
Speaker 2: Maybe occasionally they might win. They wanted to play good
Speaker 2: enough golf that they could stay out there. So to
Speaker 2: play good enough comp to say out there was to
Speaker 2: constantly try to solve the various and many mysteries of
Speaker 2: the game, like where should the right thumb be when
Speaker 2: when you're putting? I kind of forget al Garbery relate
Speaker 2: in his life. Oh, you won't be able to see this. Well,
Speaker 2: they see this, you know, and he had his he
Speaker 2: had his right thumb right down the shaft. And then
Speaker 2: he says in one day, you see that cork. This
Speaker 2: is an eighty vibe. And Corey Paven was cutting great.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're always pretty great. You see see that
Speaker 2: Corey Paven. He's got his right thumb here and he
Speaker 2: moved at a quarter inch. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, that
Speaker 2: will make the difference, because maybe would make the difference. Now,
Speaker 2: Al Gibery was a very accomplished player. No, he was
Speaker 2: a mega mega talent, you guys. Peter was not a
Speaker 2: mega mega talent. But I don't think it was unsettling.
Speaker 2: I think it was like, man, I'm making a living
Speaker 2: playing professional golf, and I'm going to keep at this
Speaker 2: mystery of it. And there was a tremendous I want
Speaker 2: to use the word joy, but it's not like isn't
Speaker 2: this all great? It's more like deeply satisfying to be
Speaker 2: in this really interesting thing where you're trying to figure
Speaker 2: it out. And I can very much relate to it
Speaker 2: because I'm trying to do this, you know here at
Speaker 2: sixty three. You know, I'm allows you writer. I'm a
Speaker 2: terrible reporter, but I'm going to try to get better
Speaker 2: at it. That's my mo And you know, I think
Speaker 2: Peter would have said about the same thing.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that Tara Vanen was was pretty frugal. His
Speaker 1: frugality led you to one particularly interesting situation. I'm sure
Speaker 1: many interesting situations, but the one I'm thinking of is
Speaker 1: the night on the caddy bus? Can you give me?
Speaker 1: Can you give me? Can you give me a few
Speaker 1: snatches of your memory from the night on the caddy bus? Garret?
Speaker 2: I thought you might go for another one, which I'm
Speaker 2: going to get to one quick second. Yes, anything to
Speaker 2: save the Knight's Peter called hotels and the kind of
Speaker 2: British tradition did now digs always quest yea at least
Speaker 2: thirty pounds, and he was not fussy at all. He
Speaker 2: often said work the caddies did. Thirty pounds even then
Speaker 2: was not a lot of money. But if you could,
Speaker 2: if you could transport yourself and not have to pay
Speaker 2: for digs at the same time, it was a two
Speaker 2: for one. So an overnight train or overnight fray or
Speaker 2: an overnight bus ride would be ideal. So at one
Speaker 2: point Christina and I were going from I think Spain
Speaker 2: to a port of Portugal definitely to a port of
Speaker 2: Portugal by way of an overnight caddy bus. And there
Speaker 2: were sixty caddies and various states of impairment on the bus,
Speaker 2: one caddy spouse, my wife Christine, and one player Peter,
Speaker 2: and he was fine with it. We got to the
Speaker 2: border crossing of Spain and Portugal, we couldn't get in
Speaker 2: because the border wasn't open yet. Peter was rolling with
Speaker 2: it all and I don't know, it's astounding to think
Speaker 2: about it now. And there were there was some movie
Speaker 2: showing Herbie rides the bus or something like that. Herbie
Speaker 2: r Yeah, something like that. No, it wasn't Herbie rides bus.
Speaker 2: Some Herby type VW type bug movie and it was on.
Speaker 2: It was showing out again and again. Of course it
Speaker 2: was not what the caddies were looking for. And there
Speaker 2: were you know, things got very chaotic on this bus ride.
Speaker 2: But you know, the things you do when you're young
Speaker 2: and are quite amazing. But there was another time. At
Speaker 2: one point I had a car and Christina had rented
Speaker 2: a car front of long term business, and Peter did not.
Speaker 2: And we were staying in some modest hotel and I
Speaker 2: think this is Monte Carlo, and Peter was staying in
Speaker 2: the same hotel, and Peter had left a note on
Speaker 2: our door. Now I'm the guy with the car, but
Speaker 2: he is the boss, and the note says the following Mike,
Speaker 2: I wanted to eat breakfast at the club, so we'll
Speaker 2: leave at seven point thirty, Pete so, or we'll leave
Speaker 2: at seven so. But our tea time was like nine
Speaker 2: thirty or so. It was like all for his convenience.
Speaker 2: So Christine writes back on the note, p the car
Speaker 2: leaves at eight if you want to go earlier. Bus it.
Speaker 2: You know, this is not precise to a st of memory,
Speaker 2: but it's in the book. And but another example of
Speaker 2: how Peter thought, and also his frugality. But his frugality
Speaker 2: actually made the whole thing possible. You know, if he spent,
Speaker 2: he would have been spending into debt and he can't
Speaker 2: play good golf and the debt. So I think, you know,
Speaker 2: it was a way a life for him, frugality, but
Speaker 2: also prevented him from you know, he was able to
Speaker 2: make more money than he spent, even when he was
Speaker 2: one hundredth on the order of meritis that charmingly called
Speaker 2: it there, So it worked hugely to his advantage to
Speaker 2: live the way he lived.
Speaker 1: I wonder if your experience as a caddy has bled
Speaker 1: into your career as a journalist. You know, you've at
Speaker 1: this point, by the time you finished caddying for Tara
Speaker 1: Vana in nineteen ninety one, you had put in some
Speaker 1: hours as a caddy. You had also caddied, I believe,
Speaker 1: on the PGA Tour or in the US somewhere. And
Speaker 1: so when you're inside the ropes at a golf tournament,
Speaker 1: do you think you look at the action somewhat differently
Speaker 1: than an ordinary journalist might because you have had this
Speaker 1: experience on the bag.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to compare myself to anybody else. But
Speaker 2: I would definitely say that the caddying that I've done
Speaker 2: has enriched every aspect of my writing life, and for
Speaker 2: this conversation, particularly my golf writing. Part of it is
Speaker 2: to this day, I still have friends and great friends
Speaker 2: who are caddies themselves. But I see Mike Cowan, Fluff,
Speaker 2: you know, have a little chat with him, Bowens, Mackay, Joelicava,
Speaker 2: various others that I've known, gone back, you know, in
Speaker 2: some of these cases to the mid eighties or maybe
Speaker 2: even the late seventies, and they know golf at a
Speaker 2: level that I'll never know it because they have so
Speaker 2: much fast experience. But also, I think having caddied in
Speaker 2: professional events, I think I understand because I've seen it.
Speaker 2: It's such close range the challenges of what it's like
Speaker 2: to try to the challenge to try to, you know,
Speaker 2: to play the lastually holes and even to make a cut.
Speaker 2: That challenge for Peter Tremain and you know, or Brad
Speaker 2: Backs or whoever it might be, is nearly identical to
Speaker 2: calm On Garment trying to play the last three and
Speaker 2: one under to win a tournament. And it's nerve wracking.
Speaker 2: It's really, really difficult getting to the house, getting to
Speaker 2: thirty six sols get into seventy two holes is really
Speaker 2: really astoundingly difficult thing to do. And the close, if
Speaker 2: you watch from you have one sense of it. If
Speaker 2: you watch as the spectru you have another, and if
Speaker 2: you watch as a caddie you have yet another. And
Speaker 2: of course the player would have yet another. So yes,
Speaker 2: I think that's been very, very helpful. And then Tom
Speaker 2: Watson has written I think a book and he's definitely
Speaker 2: talked about it a lot over the course of his life,
Speaker 2: and Bones Mackay's a TV commentator, did the same. What
Speaker 2: I'm about to say is the lie, and Tiger is
Speaker 2: the master of this. The lie dictates everything. You really
Speaker 2: don't know what you're going to do with the shot
Speaker 2: until you see the lie how it's actually sitting. But
Speaker 2: you could extrapolate from that just a little bit and
Speaker 2: say the lie is also of course it's the wind
Speaker 2: and the weather, but it's also how you're feeling, where
Speaker 2: you stand on the leader board, where you stand on
Speaker 2: the money list, blah blah, blah, blah blah. The lie
Speaker 2: is the hearing now, and the hearing now is one
Speaker 2: of the single most fascinating things about golf, because in
Speaker 2: Nicholas about this Forever, said this forever, You're only gonna
Speaker 2: have one chance in your life at this exact shot,
Speaker 2: this time and place, and what are you going to
Speaker 2: do with it? And after what you do with it,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to live with it. So like Tiger
Speaker 2: was absolutely brilliant at get really absorbed, and all these
Speaker 2: golfers are, but Tiger, who was so obvious you could
Speaker 2: actually see it, get super absorbed in this moment. What
Speaker 2: am I going to do with it? And then let's
Speaker 2: say the result is not what you want, then there's
Speaker 2: gonna be this moment of anger and feeling unworthy, and
Speaker 2: then you must let that go so you can do
Speaker 2: it all over again here and now here and now
Speaker 2: here and now now when you're on the practice toe
Speaker 2: or the practice around or something else. Then it's all
Speaker 2: start of future looking having learned something from your past
Speaker 2: all the while. But it's an endless thing in golf.
Speaker 2: And here I am in sixty period trying to get
Speaker 2: better or trying to hang on. I'm not sure which,
Speaker 2: but I think it's true for all of us. So
Speaker 2: like up I Growe, Golf of games is the one
Speaker 2: in which you know that the walls between the earthly
Speaker 2: world and the supernatural repe Thinness, that's not at all
Speaker 2: on the exact quote, and that's true. But it's also
Speaker 2: the game in which, like the amateur experience and the
Speaker 2: pro experience are really identical. Because everything that I just
Speaker 2: said for the best players in the world, it's also
Speaker 2: true for us. And I think that's why, you know,
Speaker 2: the Fried Egg exists, and Golf Club Atlass exists, and
Speaker 2: people want to read and learn more about the game
Speaker 2: because well, really, you know, sentence, it's just endlessly interesting.
Speaker 1: Why don't we transition into talking about your own game,
Speaker 1: your own golf in Scotland after you decided to leave
Speaker 1: the European Tour and Peter Tavaine and moved on to
Speaker 1: a new caddie, which you write about in the book,
Speaker 1: and you felt a little pang of jealousy, which was
Speaker 1: a charming moment, but it was time for you to
Speaker 1: play some golf of your own in Scotland. You mentioned
Speaker 1: Michael Murphy's book Golf in the Kingdom earlier and his
Speaker 1: great character Chevis's Irons. You didn't have a Cheviss Irons
Speaker 1: in mind when you went to Scotland, but you ended
Speaker 1: up sort of finding one in the flesh. How did
Speaker 1: you learn about John Stark?
Speaker 2: Great question? And if I could just brag about Mike
Speaker 2: for a minute, Mike's in his mid nineties, I would
Speaker 2: say he's a friend. I'm honored to say that. And
Speaker 2: he wrote a little introduction to the new version. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's so brilliant, it says so much about three hundred words,
Speaker 2: you can't believe it. He is an astounding person who's
Speaker 2: the full DNA package. In his mid fifties, early fifties,
Speaker 2: he could run like a four to thirty mile. Mean,
Speaker 2: this mind boggling, tremendously handsome in our tarticulated and smart
Speaker 2: person and he has this ability to see through things
Speaker 2: in an incredibly deep way. Alan Schipnook and Jeff Ogilvy
Speaker 2: and I did a podcast with him maybe about a
Speaker 2: year and a half ago, and he was so astoundingly interesting.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so I want to tip my head to
Speaker 2: Michael Murphy and his great, great invention of Sheeva's Irons,
Speaker 2: who combines different characters from real life into a fictional character.
Speaker 2: And yes, I very much did have the idea. I
Speaker 2: had no idea who the person would be. But if
Speaker 2: I could find my own shevas irons, wouldn't that be great?
Speaker 2: And I went to Peter Alice oddly, how I don't
Speaker 2: you know? Everything was more casual than you know. I
Speaker 2: was a caddie working at a tournament and Peter was there.
Speaker 2: For those who don't know, Peter Alice was the great
Speaker 2: golf the great voice of golf for the BBC for
Speaker 2: about one hundred and ten years and he's in the
Speaker 2: World Golf Hall of Fame. And if you ever want
Speaker 2: to see something really funny, look up his Hall of
Speaker 2: Fame induction speech. It's priceless, funny and very droller. But anyway,
Speaker 2: I introduced myself to Peter, and Peter said, look up
Speaker 2: this guy John Stark in Crief. That's all he said.
Speaker 2: I knew nothing about it about him, and I think
Speaker 2: I wrote a letter to John Stark and Krief and
Speaker 2: asked if I could come see him, and he said yes.
Speaker 2: And for whatever reason, Start and I hit it off,
Speaker 2: or he took a liking to me, or he could
Speaker 2: see my desperation. Probably a combination of all those things
Speaker 2: and my eagerness and my just desire to sort of
Speaker 2: learn the game anew, learn it from a Scottish perspective.
Speaker 2: And that conversation with Peter Alice enriched the rest of
Speaker 2: my life because being Stark enriched the rest of my
Speaker 2: life and has enriched my golf to this day.
Speaker 1: I have a sense that John Stark represents a tradition
Speaker 1: in the game that is not It hasn't gone away completely,
Speaker 1: but it's more rare to find. Now, how would you
Speaker 1: describe the tradition in golf that John Stark represented the
Speaker 1: lineage that he was bringing to bear in his conversations.
Speaker 2: With you, Well, it's it's it's everything really because it
Speaker 2: you know, he would say, you know, golf, the swing
Speaker 2: starts from the ground up. Golf starts from the from
Speaker 2: the ground up. Now, so much of golf is what
Speaker 2: do you see from a video camera? What do you
Speaker 2: see looking down at a golfer and down at a
Speaker 2: golf course. And his whole view was the game and
Speaker 2: the people who play had come from the ground up.
Speaker 2: And you know, I wrote another book called the Ball
Speaker 2: in the Air, and I got that phrase from Billy Harmon,
Speaker 2: Klaud Harmon's but Claud Harmon's son and Butch Harmond's kid brother.
Speaker 2: There were four Harmon brothers and two sisters, and Billy
Speaker 2: was the neameest of the brothers. But their thing was
Speaker 2: that ball in the air, what is it doing? And
Speaker 2: what can I learn from it? And also in Stark,
Speaker 2: not so much Stark the professional, but Stark the person
Speaker 2: who love golf. It really was. This is like a
Speaker 2: cliche of Scottish golf, but it's good cliche because it's true.
Speaker 2: It really was about the match, the camaraderie, appropriateness of
Speaker 2: how serious. Don't take the game seriously, don't take yourself
Speaker 2: so seriously. And part of that, part of that very
Speaker 2: much is the pace of play, because if you're not
Speaker 2: taking it so seriously, you will play faster. And I
Speaker 2: know a lot of my American friends that I play
Speaker 2: with think that I play ridiculous leave fast. I think
Speaker 2: I just play appropriately fast, But I realize I am
Speaker 2: out of step with the rest of the culture. But
Speaker 2: in Scotland I wasn't out of step for the rest
Speaker 2: of the culture. And as a matter of fact, what
Speaker 2: on a late afternoon golf game that began at four
Speaker 2: point thirty one day at the Old Course, on a
Speaker 2: busy day, we played in three and a half hours.
Speaker 2: I don't think that would happen today. So Stark just does,
Speaker 2: you know, represent he comes right out of the Hogan
Speaker 2: tradition in his own way, you know, figure it out
Speaker 2: for yourself. And now, oh and and he would and
Speaker 2: I would add to that, and don't take yourself to
Speaker 2: dam seriously, it's a game.
Speaker 1: Tell me about making good sounds.
Speaker 2: Making good sounds was the very thing that led me
Speaker 2: amazingly to have a golf game with John Updike. And
Speaker 2: I'm not name dropping, although I just didn't.
Speaker 1: Name I definitely want to hear about this and they
Speaker 1: drop away that this is. This is fascinating to.
Speaker 2: Me what he believed. You know. The starting point for Stark,
Speaker 2: by the way, I met Sandy Lyles, golf pro father
Speaker 2: during this trip as well, and uh and and it
Speaker 2: was the same and it was the same for for
Speaker 2: mister Lyle was that the golf sling began with the rhythm,
Speaker 2: and a golf sling that didn't have rhythm was not
Speaker 2: going to be a successful golf swing. And Stark's point
Speaker 2: was that there are different types of rhythm and the
Speaker 2: shaft will make different sounds based on the rhythm that
Speaker 2: at which you were swinging, and depending on your athleticism
Speaker 2: and strength and age and lots of other things. Uh,
Speaker 2: you will have a different rhythm. And even Ernie El's
Speaker 2: and Tiger in their prime, they hit them all the
Speaker 2: same distance, but they had different rhythms. So so he
Speaker 2: wanted you to think about the wush sound that the
Speaker 2: shaft makes that would have really several different types of pitches,
Speaker 2: as he described it, and be aware of that, and
Speaker 2: be be aware of the air and your lungs as
Speaker 2: you're making a backswing. And to this day I try
Speaker 2: to do that. This is really name dropy, but it's true.
Speaker 2: So I had to pow Roger Angel. I'd met him
Speaker 2: through baseball and some other things, and he sent the
Speaker 2: book to John Updike. This is my memory of it,
Speaker 2: and John Updike wrote me a note out of the blue,
Speaker 2: and part of his draw to golf and Kingdom excuse me,
Speaker 2: he did love golfling Kingdom. So that was kind of
Speaker 2: a funny mistake to this book that we're talking about.
Speaker 2: To the linksline was that he liked Stark and you
Speaker 2: liked what Start was teaching, and he invited me up
Speaker 2: for a golf game at his home club myopia hunt
Speaker 2: and by the way, to speak of different errors, he
Speaker 2: invited me to this golf game by postcard. He set
Speaker 2: up the date by postcard. Everything. He never gave me
Speaker 2: his phone number, and I certainly never asked for it.
Speaker 2: Everything no Internet, no email of course, no texting of course,
Speaker 2: thing was by post guard. So I've got a collection
Speaker 2: of postcards from John Updike. That's this thick uh to
Speaker 2: set up this golf game. Then the aftermath of the
Speaker 2: golf game anyway, you know, one of the thrills of
Speaker 2: my life. And then in this new version of Two
Speaker 2: Buns and I've got an afterward and I described that
Speaker 2: little bit with with with with Updyke.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful little scene. And it's
Speaker 1: funny because another great golf writer, James Dodson, has written
Speaker 1: about his own round with John Updyke. I forget which
Speaker 1: book it was in, but that's a that's a very
Speaker 1: memorable essay slash chapter in that book where he talks
Speaker 1: about how John Updyke goes about playing golf, which which
Speaker 1: I'd never really heard about before. Yeah, I'll figure out
Speaker 1: which which book it was in, But in any case,
Speaker 1: let me just read read you something that John Stark
Speaker 1: said to you and that you transcribed into the links land.
Speaker 1: He says you, and by you he means Americans. Here
Speaker 1: you showed us that there's money in golf that had
Speaker 1: never occurred to us. The money has corrupted us, all
Speaker 1: all of us, myself included. Once you start making it,
Speaker 1: it's a damn cancer. The money is you start thinking
Speaker 1: what can I do to make more money? In my generation,
Speaker 1: we went into golf with no expectation of wealth. The
Speaker 1: golf alone sustained us. What does that make you think
Speaker 1: about now, given the current state of the professional game, particularly.
Speaker 2: Deep it was deeply true then, it's only more true
Speaker 2: now and that it start saw the handwriting on the wall.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there's any question but that he's correct,
Speaker 2: and it hasn't helped the game at all.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the reception of to the
Speaker 1: link Slaying and the effect that it had on you.
Speaker 1: We've we've already discussed updyke Reddit, and I think that
Speaker 1: you know after you published this book that there was
Speaker 1: certainly a number of perhaps unexpected things happened for you.
Speaker 1: What's your memory of the initial reception of the book
Speaker 1: how did people react to it right out of the gate, Well,
Speaker 1: it was lovely.
Speaker 2: Golf Dies so generously excerpted it in not one but
Speaker 2: two issues as you were as you were saying Garrett earlier,
Speaker 2: and it's got the in and the outportion, the European
Speaker 2: tour portion, in the Scotland portion, and Jerry Tarty very
Speaker 2: the editor Golf di just very kindly saw that the
Speaker 2: excerpts you really needed, you really needed too, goes at
Speaker 2: it to make it work. I was reported at the
Speaker 2: Philadelphi Inquirer at the time. This is before some years
Speaker 2: before I joined Sports Illustrated, and that helped greatly. And
Speaker 2: then the artful way that he did it and Golf
Speaker 2: and his colleagues at goulfed I just did it was
Speaker 2: that it gave you a little bit, but not the
Speaker 2: whole thing where you might actually want to read go
Speaker 2: out and read the book. And this is of course
Speaker 2: in the early nineties, so in that period people would actually,
Speaker 2: if they liked the book, would write your letters like
Speaker 2: the one I got from Updike. But I must have
Speaker 2: hundreds of letters at home and I haven't thrown them out,
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't throw them out from just readers who
Speaker 2: liked the book and got something out of it, and
Speaker 2: what I think what they you know, two of them
Speaker 2: happen to be sort of noteworthy because they were former
Speaker 2: USDA presidents and they wanted to find there's this secret
Speaker 2: course in the book called Ocna Free that start took
Speaker 2: me to. They wanted to find their way to Ogenaphree.
Speaker 2: They did find their way to Octaphree, and then they
Speaker 2: wrote me about the experience. So that was, you know,
Speaker 2: quite an amazing thing to hear from these sort of
Speaker 2: lines of the game, Bill Campbell and Sandy Tatum, but
Speaker 2: most most of the people were like the wild They've
Speaker 2: wanted to practical advice about going to Scotland, or they
Speaker 2: just wanted to share about their own experience in the
Speaker 2: game or their own John Stark. So anyways, it was
Speaker 2: just a lovely thing and goes on to this day.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not a week is by where I don't hear
Speaker 2: from some person I don't know, but I feel but
Speaker 2: the reader feels connected to me and I to them
Speaker 2: because I did the reader because of how they're writing
Speaker 2: and what they're writing. Where now for you? For thirty
Speaker 2: plus years, first by letter and now by email, I
Speaker 2: just hear directly from readers who are touched by early
Speaker 2: marriage and the promise that it brings and the simplicity
Speaker 2: that it brings. Golf in a more simple state. Tremainan
Speaker 2: as a character. We've been talking about him, Stark as
Speaker 2: a character. We've been talking about them. An approach to
Speaker 2: life where of course you need money. We all need money,
Speaker 2: we all need sleep and health and be closed and
Speaker 2: the rest. But it's not obsessively more. Not this attitude
Speaker 2: more and more and more, which you know, just raised
Speaker 2: by the parents I was raised it with I've never had.
Speaker 2: So it's been an incredibly enriching experience to have this
Speaker 2: relationship with readers for a long time.
Speaker 1: Now, right, And I would say that part of the
Speaker 1: charisma of the book is the places that you talk about.
Speaker 1: You mentioned OCNA Free. Now I haven't asked you questions
Speaker 1: about the various courses that you went to in Scotland,
Speaker 1: intentionally because I want people to read the book and
Speaker 1: discover those places for themselves and find out what you
Speaker 1: think about them. I think some some mystery should be
Speaker 1: left there, but it should be clear. That's that's a
Speaker 1: big part of the second part of the book, and
Speaker 1: a big part of its appeal. This book really has
Speaker 1: lived on. It's one that people kind of talk about
Speaker 1: in hush tones and give to each other. For a while.
Speaker 1: In recent years it was a little bit hard to
Speaker 1: find or a little bit hard to find affordably, and
Speaker 1: people would kind of pass it between each other. Why
Speaker 1: do you think it has had this effect when other
Speaker 1: golf books, I'm not going to say equally good golf books,
Speaker 1: but very worthy golf books have not lived on in
Speaker 1: the same way. Why do you think to the links
Speaker 1: Land has stuck.
Speaker 2: It's such a generous question, and Garrett, I'm thoroughly enjoying
Speaker 2: this conversation. I've had two problems. Problem number one is
Speaker 2: a tea time. Problem number two is a computer that's
Speaker 2: sound of work percent. Oh no, if we suddenly die,
Speaker 2: you'll know why. But I think we're okay. But and
Speaker 2: I'm happy to continue this later if you wish to
Speaker 2: the book is overrated. I'm well aware that I'm very
Speaker 2: critical writing. I look at it and it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's so differently get But I think about everything that
Speaker 2: I write. But the book does capture, and I think
Speaker 2: this is true of every piece of writing and movies
Speaker 2: and other things. There is an underlying spirit to it
Speaker 2: of you know, it's called two points and the golfing adventure.
Speaker 2: There is an underlying spirit of an adventure, and many,
Speaker 2: many people are afraid to get in touch with their
Speaker 2: own adventure spirit, even though almost all people do have
Speaker 2: an adventures spirit. I was very lucky to have the
Speaker 2: parents I had, because they encouraged my brother and me
Speaker 2: both to explore our own adventurous miss not really warning
Speaker 2: that cryptic, but I'm sure you got the idea. So
Speaker 2: I think the reader is coming away from that, sometimes
Speaker 2: not even people who are interested in golf at all,
Speaker 2: but I have kicked up on that from readers over
Speaker 2: the years.
Speaker 1: So, Michael, in this book, your mission, as you stated
Speaker 1: it in the first chapter, was to search for the
Speaker 1: primal heart of golf. And I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's a happy book. It's a hopeful book in the
Speaker 1: sense that you sort of discover it in a lot
Speaker 1: of different ways. You go looking for the primal heart
Speaker 1: of golf and you find it now. Back then you
Speaker 1: did it by following the European tour and playing Scottish golf.
Speaker 1: I have a hard time imagining what the present day
Speaker 1: version of this adventure would be, do you think it's
Speaker 1: harder to find the primal heart of golf now than
Speaker 1: it was back in nineteen ninety one?
Speaker 2: Really good question, Probably yes, but definitely doable. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm here at this EPSOM Tour event, and when I
Speaker 2: know it, this just Paingane, very nice middle class country
Speaker 2: club course in winter Aven, Florida. And like the second
Speaker 2: I rolled in here, I was happy because I'm every
Speaker 2: one of these girls, women in this field, women in
Speaker 2: this field. They're on that same path as Peter Traminan.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know there's a local Dodge dealer has
Speaker 2: his car out in front. Uh Octener Free that you know,
Speaker 2: the six hole course that Stark took me to in
Speaker 2: a wilderness that's not there, but other things are there.
Speaker 2: And you know there's great public golf courses everywhere you
Speaker 2: everywhere you go, and I think it's there, But I
Speaker 2: think you have to define the terms for yourself and
Speaker 2: for your era. And I feel like I've stayed and
Speaker 2: connected to my own primal search. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: play these ping itwos that I play to be eccentric.
Speaker 2: I play them because they make me happy and I
Speaker 2: can and I know what they can do, and I
Speaker 2: know what they can do, so yes, I think the
Speaker 2: answer is yes. But it's going to be different because
Speaker 2: nothing in life is.
Speaker 1: Segnant Michael, thanks for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you Garrett. Thanks for the great questions. This
Speaker 2: is thoroughly enjoyable.
Speaker 1: This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was produced by
Speaker 1: Meg Atkins. Thank you Meg. If you would like to
Speaker 1: support Frida Egg Golf on a different level, then consider
Speaker 1: joining Club TFE. Go to the Frida Egg dot com
Speaker 1: slash membership and see what it's all about there. But
Speaker 1: a big part of the offering in Club tf is
Speaker 1: exclusive content like a weekly in depth course profile with
Speaker 1: a write up about the golf course and great imagery,
Speaker 1: drone shots and illustrations from our team. So that's the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that you get in Club TFE. This
Speaker 1: is truly I think, thoughtful content about the game. So
Speaker 1: if that sounds appealing to you, again, the Frida Egg
Speaker 1: dot com slash membership is the place to go. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening to this episode and we'll be back
Speaker 1: again soon with another