1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Some critics called The Wire the greatest television show of 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: all time. It ain't nothing like they make it out 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: to be. The HBO series explored Baltimore's drug scene and 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: the corruption of the city's social, governmental, and media institutions. 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: How many years you're thinking we've been doing this same ship. 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: Fans of The Wire seemed most attached to its authentic characters, 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: people like Lieutenant Cedric Daniels, the Greek who smuggled drugs 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: and humans, middle schooler Dukie Weims, drug kingpin, prop Joe. 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: State your name for the record, Omar Devon Little and 11 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: of course Omar, And what is your occupation occupation? What 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: exactly do you do for a living? Mr? Little? A 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: rip and run you arrives drug dealings. When you ask 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: David Simon, the show's creator and my guest today, which 15 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: character he loved writing most, he invariably answers Baltimore. Baltimore 16 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: looms large in Simon's life. He got his start as 17 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: a reporter for the Baltimore Sun. Simon wrote Homicide, A 18 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Year on the Killing Streets about his time spent with 19 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: the Baltimore Police Homicide Unit, and then he created The 20 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: Corner for HBO, a mini series based on his book 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: about the open air drug market in West Baltimore. You 22 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: might assume David Simon grew up in Baltimore in a 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: family with a tradition of law enforcement. He didn't. He 24 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: was raised in Washington, d c. In a family where 25 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: the tradition was words. My father was a professional jew 26 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: by which I mean he was the pure director for 27 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: ben a Birth, which is like a Jewish service organization, 28 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: and he did that for thirty years. Argument was a 29 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: way of of communicating. I mean, rhetoric was prized in 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: my household. Simon's father had wanted to be a journalist, 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: he had studied it in college, but with a growing family, 32 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: he opted for the security of public relations. His son, David, 33 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: inherited his dad's passion for newsprint. You know, once he 34 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: saw that I was interested in newspapers as a teenager, 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: he was like throwing like Swope and Damon Runyon and like, 36 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, watch what he does here. And and then 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: once I got involved with the son, he threw Mankan 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: at me. And so I was reading old guys, you 39 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: know who A kind of newspaper style that isn't even 40 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: allowed anymore, you know, and so I'm not sure man 41 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: can can get published. David Simon wrote for his high 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: school paper in Bethesda, Maryland, and continued writing in college. 43 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: I worked on the college paper at Maryland, and uh, 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 1: I sort of wrote my way onto the Sun. Um. 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: I was a stringer for a year and sort of 46 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: paid thirty bucks a story. And I had so many 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: buyolines that the unions have sort of had to formally complain. 48 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: And so, you know, you gotta hire him if he's 49 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: writing this much like a hundred violins. And the Metro 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: editor told the union quietly, look, when he graduates, we're 51 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: gonna hire him. So uh and they did. You know, 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: I didn't have to do the three or four years 53 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: in Rono or like a smaller market paper to get 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: to a major Metro daily. I got lucky. And that's 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: what were you writing those hundred by lines when you 56 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: were at the school. I was still trying to get 57 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: out of you know. By the time I finished editing 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: the Diamondback, which was a broadsheet five days a week 59 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: paper at Maryland, I had maybe sixty five credits. I 60 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: failed out, so many times I was the editor, so 61 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: I failed out two semesters in a row, just for last. 62 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: You're a professional newspaperman who was hiding in a college basically, 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: you know what. I try to say that to my father, 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: but he had he pissed away the the Yeah, you know, 65 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure he bought it. But um I got in. 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: So I still had to get a degree. Even after 67 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: I finished editing the paper. You know, I was. I 68 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: was on a five year plus summer plan. But what 69 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: do you write about? And while I was there, I 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: became their stringer. I don't know that I was looking. 71 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't like I had the world as 72 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: my oyster and I could have chosen a day. As 73 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: soon as I got hired at the Sun, it was like, understood, 74 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: that's where I'm going, you know. But I didn't know 75 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: Baltimore at all. I mean, I Baltimore was one of 76 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: those places I drove through to go visit relatives in 77 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: New York and you'd like drive that, you know, the 78 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Harvard Tunnel and auto graveyards and you know, rusting peers, 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: and you'd think, you know, my god, you know, you 80 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: take a wrong turn if you end up here, you know, 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: but you began at the Sun in no later than that, 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: So in any three, you started the Sun and you 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: developing a very deep understanding of Baltimore slowly, I'd say 84 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: the first few years, I was just trying to figure 85 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: out how to do reporting. Um what'd you write about 86 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: in the beginning? Well, the same thing I wrote about 87 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: at the end. Uh. I never read the joke because 88 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: I never got promoted. I was a police reporter. I 89 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: started as a night police reporter, which was very reactive. 90 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: You know, you come in at four pm and you 91 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: leave it to you know what, it's all what happened yesterday, 92 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: police said, police said, police said. And eventually I would 93 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: have graduated to covering crime as an issue or the 94 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: drug policy stuff as issues. But I never really got 95 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: out of the crime game. Did your attitude towards the 96 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: police and policing evolve over the time that you were 97 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: the reporter? Yeah, I mean I learned to respect good 98 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: policing and I still do. Um And eventually I learned that, UM, 99 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: I had to move away from the singular point of 100 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: view of the cops because it's very easy when you're 101 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: a reporter in the beginning to embrace who's giving you information. 102 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: So if you're covering the courts, you know, you're listening 103 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: to lawyers, and if you're covering the station house, the cops, 104 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: you're going to. You know, it was much more accessible 105 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: to go to the Western District and have their version 106 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: of events than to go to the fourteen hundred block 107 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: of Carrollton and talk to the neighbors who you know, 108 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: didn't trust the Baltimore Sun to begin. I mean, it 109 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: was a predominately black city and most of the crime 110 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: was rooted in the in the black community. And so 111 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm a white guy who grew up in the suburbs, 112 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: So I got almost no skill set when it comes 113 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: to but you know, there's an awful lot you can 114 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: accomplish by just coming back and showing you know, showing 115 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: up is a little bit of the battle, and then 116 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: being willing to ask a stupid question, when do you 117 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: finish writing for the Sun? You stopped when up. Yeah, 118 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: the paper was going in a bad direction. It was 119 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: the beginning of what was happening in newspapers, but it 120 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: was not. And you mentioned that there were limitations put 121 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: on you in the work you were doing. What were 122 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: those what they valued in journalism, I had very little 123 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: regard for and what I valued um, I wasn't unable 124 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: to convey to the importance of it to them. I 125 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: mean we were speaking different languages. The guys who came 126 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: in once we were brought up by the chains, and 127 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't that they wanted mediocre things. It was that 128 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: they actually had deep ambitions, but they were sort of 129 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: the prize culture ambitions. Five part series The Baltimore Sun 130 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: has learned it's better if it's unsourced, even if the 131 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: source would go on the record. It makes it sound 132 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: like we did more work. I mean, there was like 133 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: almost a formula, and I was much more interested in 134 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: how the city actually works or doesn't work, and that 135 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: stuff is complicated, and like if you're trying to slice 136 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: off a five part series or three part series of 137 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: outrage in order to win a prize, you have to 138 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: discard the stuff that is maybe going the other way, 139 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: or it makes the issue complicated. I mean, one of 140 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: the editors that The Sun who became predominant when I 141 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: when I knew it was time to leave. He'd won 142 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: one a couple of Politzers in Phildelphia, and one of 143 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: them was for and I'm sure they were very good stories, 144 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: but but one of them was very literally it was 145 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: the canine unit of the police department. The dogs are 146 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: biting too many people. They're biting more people than in 147 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: other cities. And I'm sure the series has its merits, 148 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: but not everything is you know, the real issues facing 149 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: American cities are and if we can just get the 150 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: dogs to stuff by, you know, It's like I was 151 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: much more interested in why isn't the drug word? Yeah? Yeah, 152 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: like you know, why why are we doing the same 153 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: things over and over again? And having lesson what did 154 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: you think was wrong with Baltimore? What do you think 155 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: we're Baltimore's biggest problems? Nothing that isn't wrong with most 156 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: of the urban American policy at this point, which is 157 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: but I mean one of the more more fundamental problems 158 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: was they were committed to a national drug probably and 159 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: that is just incredibly destructive. And now we would if 160 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: you stop in ninety five you said this when you 161 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: took the buy out from them, and then and then 162 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: were you a television person, you would television and watcher 163 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: you he did you end up? It was a mistake. 164 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: It's really been a hilarious mistake. One of my dear 165 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: friends who died while we were working on Tremay was 166 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: David Mills, and we worked on the college paper together. 167 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: And I remember being on a college paper and this 168 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: is the time of Hill Street, Blues and st Elsewhere 169 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: in those shows, and I could admire the craft of 170 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: those shows and see that something sort of fresh was happening. 171 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: But I was, you know, I was in my early twenties, 172 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: and I wasn't hanging around to watch. I can never 173 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: get in front of the television set on the right night, 174 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: so I caught a little of it here and there. 175 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: But David and we'd be rolling the paper at ten 176 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,599 Speaker 1: o'clock at night, and it's like, you know, we're just 177 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: trying to get the pages out to get them printed, 178 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: and David would like, go hold on, I gotta go 179 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: watch Hill Street. And he'd go into the office and 180 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: sit down with a little black and white TV and 181 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: watch it as if it mattered. And we tease him 182 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: and be like you, some people like Dave, the page 183 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: isn't gonna roll about. Bless them, right, God blessed them. 184 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: So I was not. I watched sports and I watched 185 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: uh reruns a Bilco and Honeymooners with my dad. You know. 186 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: It was like a sharing experience, you know, that's it. 187 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: The newspapers had primacy in my house. It was just 188 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: back when people got more than one paper, right, we 189 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: got The Star Morning in an evening, Washington Star, Washington 190 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: Post Times on Sundays. So when you leave the Sun, 191 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: what do you do? Well? I had a bunch of 192 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: opportunities there. I mean, I was working on a second book. 193 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: I'd written a book called Homicide and when I was 194 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: a reporter, and it was a nonfiction narrative of a 195 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: year I spent in the homicid Haughton Mifflin once, I said, 196 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: the police depart in Baltimore was letting me into the 197 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: homicide unit for a year. That access sort of guaranteed 198 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: that I was going to get some kind of advance 199 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: that I could live on. Well, I researched the book, 200 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: and so there was a little bit of an auction small, 201 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, enough that I got enough to live on 202 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: and uh took a year's leave of absence from the 203 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: paper when the unit wrote. The book came out in 204 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: ninety one and Barry Levinson, the filmmaker from Baltimore, he 205 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: bought it and he was looking to make a show 206 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: at NBC and and they they made Homicide, and it 207 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: was this weird step child. Because I was I went 208 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: back to the Sun. I didn't think much of it. No, no, 209 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: I mean I just sold him the book. And my 210 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: brother Daniel did that show. That's right, of course, and 211 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: we had we were gonna get there eventually. Yeah, so 212 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: that this this this step child from my book is 213 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: existing and I go back to being a reporter. Gail 214 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: Matrix offered me the chance to write the pilot, and 215 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: I said, maybe wisely, maybe not wisely, because I didn't 216 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: know what the hell I would have been doing. I said, 217 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: get somebody who knows what they're doing to do this. 218 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a newspaperman. But maybe unwisely when I 219 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: saw the per episode royalty that went to that guy, 220 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, and I said, once you have some scripts together, 221 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: send me so I'll see the template. Maybe I'll try 222 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: to write one in the head. Yeah, we wrote one 223 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: late in first season, and it was so dark and 224 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: so depressing that NBC wouldn't make it. The show starts 225 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: starts running, and and I wrote this one script with 226 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: David Mills, Like when when they gave me the assidement 227 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: and they said, yeah, I take a script. I said, well, 228 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: I don't know TV from Adam, but David loved this stuff, 229 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: and so I called him up. He was at the 230 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: Washington Post at the time. We've gone on to different newspapers, 231 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: and I said, how you been, how's it going. We're 232 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: gonna write a TV script. We got about two weeks 233 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 1: and so we hold up and we turned this thing 234 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: in and about half of it was our stuff. It 235 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: turned out to be an episode that Robin Williams was in. Um, 236 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: they cast Robin Williams in the sort of the lead 237 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: guest part, and once they cast him, they had to 238 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: like give him more scenes. Um. So, uh, some of 239 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: our stuff got tossed, but about half of our stuff 240 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: of it was probably our our pages. So I thought 241 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: we'd failed miserably. You know, if you're half rewritten on 242 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: a newspaper, if if half your story isn't your words, 243 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: if the rewrite man had to come behind you for 244 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: that much, you know, you screwed up. So I was 245 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: sort of ashamed and like, well, okay, I guess we 246 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: didn't do what they wanted. But they came back and 247 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: offers us another script. And so at some point there's 248 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: this buyout from my newspaper on the table, and the 249 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: newspapers going in the direction I don't admire, and they 250 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: offered me a job in that window. So I wrote 251 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: two scripts in the course of like a month, one 252 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: for NYPD Blue and one for Homicide, and I admired 253 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: both shows and and and they were both very fair offers. 254 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: Tom Fontana said, I'll teach you how to do this, 255 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: and you're gonna want to learn how to actually produce. Yes, 256 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: he kept that promise with a Vengeance pretty much everything. 257 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: One of the most successful TV writers you know, and 258 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: I mean in the end, Tom was as good as 259 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: his word in the sense of at first, all you're 260 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: doing is writing, and you're just moving scenes, and you're 261 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, filling in, you know, but eventually set coverage 262 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: and protecting the writing when it's on set and shooting, well, 263 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: you want to make sure that you're getting the intention 264 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: of the scene, because merely because it's a script doesn't 265 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's headed for anywhere good. You have 266 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: to protect it all at the same time giving the 267 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: actors and the director a chance two make it their 268 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: own as well. But you have to keep the core 269 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: value of what the story is. And I've come to 270 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: believe that, you know, if you have a good crew, 271 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: if you have good actors, everybody's kind of a well 272 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: sharpened tool, and if they know their business, they're doing 273 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: exactly what they're supposed to do. But somebody has to 274 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: look out for story as a whole and protect story 275 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: as a whole, particularly in an intricate drama. That's some 276 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: sets I've been on. The actors are better at keeping 277 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: their eye on the story as a whole than the 278 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: writers themselves. I've not found that, but that may be 279 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: something that you and I were going to differ on 280 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: to the end of time. Everybody has to settle for 281 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: at certain points for eighty five or nine or even 282 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: eight percent of your intention. As you go into the 283 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: day's work, there comes that moment where you're fighting to 284 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: get six and then then there's trouble then that it 285 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: has to be resolved because that's not enough. But I mean, 286 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: I think in some ways you have to leave room 287 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: for everybody to be creative and and that it's that's 288 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: a real thinks. I learned that. And then you know 289 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: somewhere at about a year and a half, I was 290 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: summoned to New York to sit by the Avid and 291 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: watch what Tom did when he cut. And that was 292 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: another education. You know, at a certain point you get 293 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: sent to casting. You know there's a whole skill set 294 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: of shore running that And when did that end? When 295 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: did you walk away from Hamish? Homicide ended in so 296 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: as homicide is winding down and you either sense that 297 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: it's going to end, or didn't end abruptly, or you 298 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: kind of knew it was coming. They I took the 299 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: job with homicide, thinking I'll do this while I was 300 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: working on a very complicated manuscript of of my second book, 301 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: which was about a drug The year spent on the 302 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: Drug Corner was a follow up to Homisi Corner. Yeah, 303 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: a drug corner in West Bontimore. So were you was 304 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: the wire something that you were cooking up while you 305 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: were developing and or shooting and or posting and or 306 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: debuting the Corner. A lot of people think the Wire 307 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: came in the wake of the Sopranos, But when we 308 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: wrote the Wire scripts for the first seas and we 309 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: hadn't seen the Sopranos, we were we were writing in 310 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: the absence of the Sprans. We were writing in the 311 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: shadow of oz. Oz was the first time that HBO 312 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: had ventured into this. Hey, we'll put it on TV 313 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: and you've never seen it before on TV territory. So 314 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: that was when I saw the pilot of ALS. I 315 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: went to Tom and said, you know, you could do 316 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: a show about a drug corner. And for reasons that 317 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: you know are elusive to me. Now, Tom and Barry 318 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: were joined at the hip, and Barry didn't want to 319 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: do the corner. Uh, you know, he didn't want to 320 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: send it up for series. I think Tom wanted to. 321 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: But you know it was and I think to give 322 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: that end up being a good thing for you. Yeah, 323 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean it ended up. Tom said a piece of 324 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: it to Tom. Right at the time, I was like, oh, 325 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: now I gotta walk into a room with an HBO 326 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: without Yeah, but what happened Tom set the meeting up. 327 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: What happened, Well, I got in the room and they 328 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: had already read the book, which was a miracle by 329 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: l A standards. You know, there wasn't a memo. Yeah, 330 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: two or three people in the room had actually read 331 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: the book, and I was trying to sell them the wire. Finally, 332 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: Karrie and Tholis, who was the head of mini series 333 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: at the time, said we just want you to do 334 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: the book. Can you just do the book as the 335 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: book is as a mini and I said, okay, you 336 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: know better than nothing. So I was in the mini 337 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: series business. The only caveat they had was, we happen 338 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: to notice you're not black and you're a co writer 339 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: who's ed Burn's former police detective on the corner. He's 340 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: not black either. Can you get a black you know? 341 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: Do you know any and I said, wow, there's this 342 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: to get a black guy in here? Yeah? Can we 343 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: can we make a marriage? Would you do well? I said, 344 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I thought. They said, well, you 345 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: know I am. I know this guy, David Curtis Hall 346 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: came sprinting a producer. I had Dave Mills in my pocket. 347 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: I mean, we've been friends since college. So I said, 348 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: I know this guy Mills. You know. Literally, they thought 349 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: for the credibility of the series, you needed to have 350 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: an African American. I don't think they'll deny it to 351 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: this day. And they were nervous about presenting depictions of 352 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: African Americans that were rooted in the in the underclass 353 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: and probably very smartly, so right, and I don't blame them, 354 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, to television, you know. So who did you 355 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: get again? Who was your Dave Mills? The guy from 356 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: Calm He was Dave Mills is black, so um Dave Mills, 357 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: and I said, And I walked out of the HBO building, 358 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, into Century City and I basically I got 359 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: on my cell phone. I said, Dave, what are you 360 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: doing for the next year? Dave, I need a black 361 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: guy get over there. And he said, what do you 362 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: mean what am I doing? I think he was on 363 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 1: L A Law. He was, he was were doing episodes 364 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: for L A Law at the time. That's fine. And 365 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: I said, well, you're writing a miniseries based on the 366 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: Corner and he goes, I am. I said yeah, and 367 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: he goes, how did that come up? And I told him, 368 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, he was laughing his ass off. He said, 369 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: all right, this is this will be good. So I 370 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: ended up doing that and then I thought it was 371 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: six it was six hours and it did okay. I mean, 372 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: nobody watched it. Who you know, it's it's the underclass 373 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: and it's America. You know, it's not like not like 374 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: people were dying for it. I thought we did very 375 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: well with it, was very true to the book. It 376 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: was very honest with the book, which I cared about. 377 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: So both projects, so those are linked to books. Yeah, 378 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking now I'm gonna go back and write 379 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: another book, which you know, believe me, if my book editor, 380 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: God bless him, John Sterling is listening right now, he's 381 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: just you know, he just spit out a couple of teeth. 382 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: But um, I'm thinking, I'm going back to books, and 383 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to a newspaper and I'm gonna I'm 384 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: going back to gonna go back period. Yeah, I'm going 385 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: back and now the windows you know, now that I 386 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: finished The Corner and Homicides over, it's a nice skill 387 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: set to have learned. But I'm not looking for for 388 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm looking to go back and then the favorite words. 389 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: I like. I like reporting, I love reporting, I like 390 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: I like actually the time spent even on a fictional story, 391 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: the time spent an interest. There's something about you, not 392 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: that you have the answer that you like it a 393 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: little less, Uh, Glitzie, were you getting kind of fatigued 394 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: by that? And the East Coast guy and and I 395 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: will tell a story on myself and George Palcanno is 396 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: one of the novelist writers, a good friend of mine. 397 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: We're we're in l A for UH. I think we're 398 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: going to UH some meetings and and maybe an awards there. 399 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm in l A usually six days a year for meetings. 400 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: George wanted to go to the I Vys. We got 401 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: a reservation at the ivy, and of course we were 402 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: down on the sidewalk for forty five minutes, you know, waiting, 403 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: and then the beautiful hostess comes down and looks around 404 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: and says, after they've taken every you know, every other 405 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: you know actor and says, Pelican party, Pelican party. You know, 406 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: I turned it, George, I said, we don't belong here. 407 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: They just sat Ruth Westimer before us. Let's go home. 408 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: I have very little patience for that stuff, not because 409 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: it sounds arrogant, sounds like, oh, he's such a down 410 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: to earth, you know, the Baltimore under his fingernails, and 411 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, you go out there and you realize it's 412 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: not for everybody, No, it really is not. And and listen, 413 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot to love about the entertainment industry, especially 414 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: when it goes well, and nobody's throwing the money back. 415 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: When when the residual checks come to your mailbox, you 416 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: don't throw them out on the ground and discuss thank you. Yeah, 417 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: no one know what ever says no thank you. But 418 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: I was supposed to write towards argument, like the stuff 419 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: was supposed to be about something. Was it in the corner? Yeah? Yeah, 420 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: I mean it was, and you were gonna go write 421 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: another book about I think the next one was supposed 422 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: to be. In my head, I wanted to do the 423 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: working class. It was what what we what we canabalized 424 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: for season two of The Wire. First I had asked um, 425 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: I've made some quiet inquiries about going to beth Steel, 426 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: the steel plant which was still sort of operating a 427 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: skeleton shift um in Baltimore, but very big steel plant, 428 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: and also the GM factory about whether they'd let me 429 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: work in the line. You know, I can't help it. 430 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm from a different planet, which is journalism, and what 431 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in it even in making film, even 432 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: as a filmmaker, is is the argument that can come 433 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: as a result of the narrative. I certainly don't know you, 434 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: but judging from your work Homicide and The Wire, and trema. 435 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: You seem like someone who comes from a you know, 436 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: a comfortable middle class existence and and and an educated background. 437 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: The plight of the poor or something that gnaws at you. Correct, 438 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm interested in the story that has political import um 439 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: and and that can say something fresh and worthy of argument. 440 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I ever sort of saw it as 441 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: being socialism. Yeah. Well, and yet I would say my 442 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: politics are to the left of the Democratic Party. I'm 443 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: probably what in Europe would be called the democratic socialist. 444 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: But having said that, I think I was very fair 445 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: as a reporter. You know, some of poverty is about 446 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: personal responsibility, and some of it is not. Some of 447 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: it is systemic and a result of societal forces that 448 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: are profound, and you can't ignore either. And I think 449 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: the reporting in the corner and also some of the 450 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: implications of the wire. People I know who liked the 451 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: wire loved the wire. Well, it would, but that that 452 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: came very late in the run, and it came as 453 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: a result of things that I don't think we anticipated 454 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: what you're uh, sort of power watching through whole seasons 455 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: at a time, you know, once on demand and DVD 456 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: sets became those things. Yeah, we were still locked into 457 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: the Man and we hope they watched it on Sunday 458 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: nights or in the rewatches. When we first came on 459 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: the air, all that other, all the other platforms didn't exist, 460 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: so we didn't know that it would have a long tail. 461 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: And at the time, it was really about begging to 462 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: let us finish the narrative. How many seasons of The 463 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: Wire did you do? Uh? Five? How many episodes? Uh? Sixty? 464 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: What did you learn before? I mean, and even though 465 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: the collaboration with Tom in particular and with Barry was 466 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: a good one. Now this is your house and this 467 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: is your thing, the Wire is you and what did 468 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: you what was your personal touch you wanted to put out? 469 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: What were things you wanted to do that you weren't 470 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: able to do before? I thought Homicide was an exceptionally 471 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: good show, really well acted, and you know, well there 472 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: was a TV drama nonetheless, whereas most people agree that 473 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: The Wire was something that was much more bristled with authenticity. 474 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: The dialogue. Well, I mean, what the Wire had going 475 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: for it was there was nobody to appease. There were 476 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: no you know, there was nobody looking over your show. 477 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: I remember when we pulled we had good numbers. We 478 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: had okay numbers first season, we had even better number 479 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: second season, and then third season the numbers though that 480 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: was the first season the NFL started programming Sunday night football, 481 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, and then and then and 482 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: then Desperate Housewives Chanel. So we were getting the crap 483 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: kicked out of us. And I remember calling Caroline, thinking, man, 484 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: they may cancel us. And I said, you know, what 485 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: was the number last Sunday? And she read it back 486 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: to me and I said, she said, I said, oh, man, 487 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: and she goes, oh, come on, it's a cute little number. 488 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't want you thinking about numbers. That's astonishing. That's astonishing. 489 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: So what did you want to do differently than they? 490 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: What were some things you thought? I guess, yeah, that 491 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: was where we got in on this. And I think 492 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: the one thing I wanted to do is I looked 493 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: upon homicides being twenty two. It was like a collection 494 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: of short stories. You know, whenever I compare stuff to books, 495 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: people think I'm saying, oh, the wires as good as 496 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: Moby Dick or and I'm never saying that. I'm always 497 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: just using books. As you know. Okay, homicide was dubliners. 498 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: You know, it's all connected, but it's it's James Joyce's dubliners. 499 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: These these delicately connected stories about a place and an 500 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: ethos and and and you know, twenty two separate stories, 501 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: and there's some storylines continue, but each story, you know, 502 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: there's a fresh theme for each. It was short story writing, 503 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: um in in a television sense, and I really wanted 504 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: to see what would happen if you sort of apply 505 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: the logic of a novel and so, like you like, 506 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: stuff that happens in the first couple of chapters might 507 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: stay relevant or or have the old style of TV, 508 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: which is what we don't have now, which is now 509 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: everybody wants a one off? Why are these police procedurals 510 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: like n c I S and everything is so popular 511 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: because you watch one episode and it's all, oh listen, yeah, 512 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: I was. I was. I'm not sure that it doesn't 513 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: present its own level of problems, but I have to say, 514 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, um, but it plays well into the binge 515 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: viewing thing where if you're if you're gonna connect everything 516 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: like a novel, and I can sit down on an 517 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: afternoon and I can watch three hours of your show 518 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: in retrospect. You have to have a certain number of 519 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: viewers get to the end and start talking about it 520 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: and say you gotta put them, you gotta go get 521 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 1: the box that you gotta go watch all these um 522 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: I look at these TV things as being a chance 523 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: to have a discussion about something more than I wish 524 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: these two characters would get together. I wish that, you know, 525 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: I wish that he wouldn't have gotten killed. You know, 526 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: I understand that the viewers experienced it that way, and 527 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: they're not wrong. But man, if all you're doing is 528 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: being entertaining, then I've sort of, you know, I don't know. 529 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that I can sort of like look 530 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: sort of the ghost of my father in the eye 531 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: at night and say, you know that leaving newspapers was 532 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: that I'm anything but a apostate. In fact, David Simon 533 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: has become increasingly vocal in his opinions about our country's 534 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: drug war. He said he hoped the wire would move 535 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: quote from the entertainment pages to the op eds unquote. 536 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: Last year, Simon appeared in the House I Live in, 537 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: Eugene Jarecki's documentary about drug policy in the US. We 538 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: Are the jailingest country on the planet beyond Saudi Arabia, 539 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: North Korea or China. Nobody jels the population that there 540 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: ain't that we do, and yet drugs are purer than 541 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: ever before, they're more available, there are younger and younger 542 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: kids willing to sell them. It'd be one thing it 543 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: was draconian and it worked. But it's draconian and it 544 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: does work, and it just leads to war. Talk about 545 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: Jarecki and how you met him, well, one of the 546 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: things that the wire was clearly intended as is a 547 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: critique of the drug war and drug probition. So I've 548 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: been I spoke very bluntly about what I thought had 549 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: gone wrong with the drug war, and at some point, 550 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, when people would call me and they'd say 551 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: the magic words, which is, you know, I mean I'm 552 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: doing a story or I'm doing a documentary I'm doing 553 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Can I interview you about the drug war? I always 554 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: say yes, And in fact, in all the public speaking 555 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: I do, I always come back to one of my 556 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: fundamental arguments, which is that if you're if you're an 557 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: American citizen and you believe in any kind of democratic ideal, uh, 558 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: you might want to seriously consider jury nullification. If you're 559 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: picked on a jury for a non violent drug offense 560 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: of being one of those Americans who are you know, 561 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: being you know, refusing to put another American in jail 562 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: over drug prohibition, you're not helping solve the problem, um, 563 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: and you're leading to it InCAR sort of American problem. Yeah, 564 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: you're feeding the problem since I don't think there's any 565 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: political leadership that's going to get there in advance of 566 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: actual popular sentiment. I think it's very much like, for example, 567 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: gay rights. You know, I think by the time the 568 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: politicians line up, change is already inevitable. And so I 569 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: think the drug war is the same thing. And that's 570 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: how prohibition finally fell on its ass, which was that 571 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: they couldn't find twelve Americans to put a thirteenth in 572 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: jail for making bathub jail. So I always take the 573 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: gig and I always argue for jury nullification, and it's 574 00:27:49,760 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: happening in places like Baltimore. In a minute, David Simon 575 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: and I reminisce about our worst Hollywood pitch meetings involving 576 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: Abercrombie and Fitch models and the origins of the Chesapeake Bay, 577 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: and I realized once again, I'm in the wrong place. 578 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the thing, 579 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: this is Alec Baldwin. The city of Baltimore is still 580 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: a character in David Simon's life. He and his wife, 581 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: writer Laura Lippman, lived there with their three year old daughter. 582 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: He also has a nineteen year old son, but Baltimore 583 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: no longer takes center stage in his work. Simon produced 584 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: Generation Kill, an HBO series about the invasion of Iraq, 585 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: and is working on the fourth and final season of Tremay, 586 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: also for HBO, a drama that follows a neighborhood in 587 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: New Orleans as it struggles to rebuild after Hurricane Katrina. 588 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: Simon says working on Tremay made it and clearer to 589 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: him what works and what doesn't in television. Two things 590 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: are still the great currency. And even in this golden 591 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: age of television sex and violence, if you have hot 592 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: people hooking up, then you've got one. Then you're spending 593 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: one currency. And if you have to turn to the 594 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: next page, and if you if you're blowing ship up 595 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: and killing people, then you've got something else going for you. Well. 596 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: The wire Um was what it was about, and it 597 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: was something we wanted to tell a story about, but 598 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: clearly it was it had the currency of being a 599 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: gangster story underneath. Uh, you know, at least on the surface, 600 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: that's what it was. It was a crime story and 601 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: the corner was that and Generation Kill had Marines blowing 602 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: shut up. You know, there have been very few television 603 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: shows that that embraced the idea of real human beings 604 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: on a real human scale. It's really hard to do. 605 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: It's hard to keep people interested. I'm not saying Tram 606 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: may succeeded in any grand way, because I think it's 607 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: been a very quiet show and it has I'm hoping 608 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: it will stand for what it is and people will 609 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: find it. But we were not interested in being hyperbolic 610 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: with the show. You know, we weren't interested in tarding 611 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: it up, and we weren't interested in the violence that 612 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: there is in the show. Is actually corresponds to the 613 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: dynamic of violence in the city of New Orleans and 614 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: and not more. It's really a show about the role 615 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: of culture in bringing a city back and what it 616 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: means to be live in a pluralistic society that is 617 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: capable of creating pluralistic culture, which is what what better 618 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: form for it than American music, roots music, jazz, blues whatever. 619 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: You know, how many shows can you name that that 620 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: are really you know, I mean maybe like the first 621 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: couple of seasons of Northern Exposure or these shows that 622 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: basically are are our studies of place and time and character. 623 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: And you know, there there are people who at the 624 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: moment they realized that you're not gonna that you know, 625 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: no vampire is going to show up or or nobody's 626 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: gonna be fucking you know, it's like waiter check please, 627 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: you know. So, um, I never want to do one 628 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: more pitch that I have to do in life that 629 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: there are those meetings. I mean, I'm I'm I'm in 630 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: this little cocoon of HBO, and I hope they take 631 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: something that I'm interested in and we'll say yeah, but 632 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's not even worth talking about. I mean, 633 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: you don't know how many things I don't know. I 634 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: don't want to pick your brains, but I'm just saying, 635 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: do you have it's not worth you know, until something 636 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: gets a green light, it's just really not worth. But 637 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: but I can tell you that, um, I did do 638 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: the round Robin of like, I have an idea that 639 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: I really care about, and I went to like all 640 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: the little meetings with the production development companies and and 641 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, I remember telling one that very delicate true 642 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: story of Baltimore that I really wanted to do as 643 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: a small movie. Uh. And I remember having one meeting 644 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: after another. In the last last time I actually uttered 645 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: anything about it was I was at this movie over 646 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: in one of the lots and at this meeting, and uh, 647 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: they listen really intently, and I'm like laying it out 648 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: with the character instrick. And then then this happened, and 649 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: I knew this guy, and when he died, and you know, 650 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm bleeding out, and you know that they listened patiently 651 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: for twenty five minutes, after which the guy says to me, 652 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: have you ever thought about where the Chesapeake Bay came 653 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: from here from Baltimore? I said, the Chesapeake Bay? He said, yeah, 654 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: you know where the Chesapeake Bay came from. I said, well, 655 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of this long estuary. I think it was 656 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: sort of where they think there's probably a meteor strike, 657 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's that sort of that's right. And I 658 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: remember looking at him going and that's the story a 659 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: meteor strike, and he nodded firmly, and I left thinking, 660 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: what an idiot. You know, I can't believe I just wasted, 661 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, half an hour and there on a freaking 662 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: more on cancel all the meetings. I'm just going home 663 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: like the other studios all had meteor movies and this 664 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: guy and I realized once again I'm in the wrong place. 665 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: People sitting at a crab shack saying the meteors coming 666 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: and got their bibs on a very sentimental and romantic 667 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: Remember I was in a meeting one two years ago. 668 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: This is many years ago, the mid nineties, and I thought, oh, 669 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: the movie business is such a drag. It's so painful, 670 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: and I was really had this crisis of faith. And 671 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: I go to this meeting with some pretty big people 672 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: of Morner Brothers Television and I say to this guy, um, 673 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: you guys, what do you want to do? I said, well, 674 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: I have an idea for a television show. I said, 675 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: I want to I want to refurbish the FBI, the 676 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: old Quinn Martin. I want to do the FBI and 677 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: I wanted to be and I want to put together 678 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: the most elite team of actors I can think of 679 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: the greatest actors that I admire today. It's me and 680 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: Andre Brauer and Treat Williams. And I had this list 681 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: of all these really tough guys that seemed like FBI guys. 682 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: I could throw a punch and shoot a gun and 683 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: they just don't even move. And as a joke, as 684 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: a complete joke, I said, or I'm like the Michael 685 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: Conrad character in Hill Street Blues. I come up and 686 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: do the the shape up in the morning and it's 687 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: me and like six Abercrombie and Fitch models are my staff. 688 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: And I sit there and say be careful out there, 689 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: and they go out and have like crimes, and you know, 690 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: every episode ends with every every episode ends with like 691 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: like Team America and like two plastic looking gorgeous of 692 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: people having sex. And the guy literally when he was 693 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: now that show, I want to man, I mean, I'm 694 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: not kidding. With an ounce of iron, he goes out 695 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: that I want to make it. That's a great idea. 696 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: Signed that one up. He let's do that FBI. So um. 697 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: But one last thing, you have a child who's nineteen. 698 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: What's he doing now? He's a college what's he Uh? 699 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: He's a freshman, so I think he started, you know, 700 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: because he got the bug. What bugs? No, he's actually 701 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: a musician. He plays a jazz piano in a very 702 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: high He hasn't even started yet and he wants to 703 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: go back. Yeah, that's right, he um. So far that 704 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: hasn't happened. Now the young daughter is a performer, or 705 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: what's that like of you? Because I'm in the same boat. 706 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: I got a seventeen and a half year old daughter 707 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: and a baby coming. How's fatherhood for you? Well? Part two? Okay, 708 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: let's be let's be honest. Do you feel it when 709 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: you have to get up off the floor. It's easy 710 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: to get down there and play with you when they're 711 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: two years old, But you know, it's different than it 712 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: was when I in my thirties and now I'm now 713 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: in my early fifties, and when I get down on 714 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: the floor, it's like get the Derek to get me 715 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: up because you feel it in the knees all of 716 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: a sudden. It's like, man, you you don't realize you 717 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: can actually lay there and watch Mary Poppins over and 718 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: over again. You're fine, right? My wife says that I 719 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: think very very aptly that um, when when you're younger 720 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: and you're parenting, you can go without sleep, you can 721 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: be physically exhausted. You have work. Yeah, yeah, you have 722 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: stamina you didn't know you have because you're young. When 723 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: you're older, hopefully if things have gone a little bit 724 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: right and you're an older parent, you've got enough money 725 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: so that you can there's there's somebody there to help 726 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: you with six or five or four hours of childcare 727 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: a day. Because man, I definitely feel like I'm in 728 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: my fifties so well as my friend Michael Lally, the 729 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: poet said to me, who had a son later in 730 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: his life, he said, it's great. I said, you had 731 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: a kid. You were like right around my age. He 732 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: said yes, I said that was it. Has it been 733 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: every you hope it would be? He said, yes, it's great. 734 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: It changed my life and reprioritize my life. I'm really 735 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: I was so ready for fatherhood. I think I'm a 736 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: good dad. I have a great relationship with my son. 737 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: He said. There's only one thing I I remind people 738 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: who are my age to keep in mind, and that is, 739 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: when your kid goes to college, make sure that they 740 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: attend a university where the commencement is held at a 741 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: wheelchair accessible facility. That's the Oh nothing I remember, and 742 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to keep that in mind. I fear the 743 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: future in some respects. But on the other hand, you know, 744 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: once once you go across the threshold, I know no 745 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: giving it back, and I wouldn't if I could. Well, 746 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: my last question for you is you because to me, 747 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: the wire was about an authenticity which is often missing 748 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: from television drama, which you know, they've got their formula, 749 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: they've got their eatings and everything. They they've got their 750 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: recipe that works for them, but yours speaks to makes 751 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: me think you're ripe to make movies? Do you ever 752 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: want to make movies? Well, the writer's not you know, 753 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: get the writer off the set. You know. It's the 754 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: reason they had that the writers in charge in television 755 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: in drama anyway, is the need for continuity, the need 756 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: for character continuity. You know, you can't fire the Son 757 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: of a Bitch because episode eleven follows from episode ten, 758 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: you know. And so I've had a few bites of 759 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: the apple and I've written some things that you know, 760 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: and I think, listen, it's also I'm not saying that 761 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: what if they gave you the script, and you know 762 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: we're in the age of the fully realized writer director. 763 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: Everywhere I turn around, they say, you know, Evans going 764 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: to be directing the script. I know what I'm not 765 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: good at and and you don't want to I see 766 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: shot compasses. I mean I would do a very pedestrian 767 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: job of directing. I understand how to turn the camera around. 768 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: I understand like what you need to leave with in 769 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: order to have coverage. But the really creative and elegant 770 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: directors I've worked with, they have a skill set that 771 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: I don't have. It's very interesting for you, and I 772 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: feel the same way. I really respect it when when 773 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: they didn't care enough right when they right when they 774 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: when they I understand what I'm watching a performance that 775 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: isn't working because it's not getting the intention of the 776 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: seen or because I don't leave in something either the 777 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: background or the actor, or if something's not working, I 778 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: know it's not working, but how to solve the problem. Sometimes, Um, 779 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, I can be diagnostic, I can't be prescriptive 780 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: when it comes to a camera. I would watch some 781 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: of the greatest cinematographers and I would say, truly that 782 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: probably the most gratifying part of my film work was 783 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: to be around these highly gifted, monastic men. I but 784 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: the first time I showed up, you know, like one 785 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: minute I was a rewrite man and crime reporter for 786 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: the One More Sun, and the next moment I was 787 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: working for this show homicide and my paychecks were coming 788 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: from NBC. And I go to set for the first 789 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: day and I'm looking around and I don't even know 790 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: what stupid question to ask. And it was like three 791 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: weeks into going to set and seeing them do it 792 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: that at some point I said, you know, what's what's 793 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: boots over there? You know, the guy's name is Booth? 794 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: I said, what's he doing turning that knob next to 795 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: the camera, and H Henry Broumel actually remember, turned to 796 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: me and said, he's focusing the camera. I looked at 797 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: him like, I said, you mean the guy who focuses 798 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: the camera, isn't the guy looking through the camera. How 799 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: does that work? Like you know, that can't possibly work. 800 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: People are unprepared for how collaborative film, right exactly, and 801 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: so respect the depths, you know, and I do, which 802 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: is to say, I kind of want to have the 803 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: story turn out. I don't want to put my name 804 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: on something where the story, you know, you went in 805 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 1: with the script you believed in and you came out 806 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: with dreck. But at the same time, so I kind 807 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: of don't want to relinquish control, but I have to 808 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: acknowledge features is very difficult doing the television series doing 809 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: thirty Rock, where we shot, you know, a hundred and 810 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: twenty something episodes. We were there hour after hour after hour. 811 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: My version of so Long as you Know was they'd 812 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: say to me, do you mind if we move the camera. 813 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: We're going to move the camera over here, so when 814 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: you turn, we need you to lean on your left leg. 815 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: And I would look at them. I mean, I did 816 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: it a thousand times. I say, I really don't care 817 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: what you do because change in this moment. I'm gonna 818 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: stand here and say this line. Oh you want me 819 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: to lean on my left leg? Great, that's my why 820 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: I really don't care. I don't know. I don't have 821 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: anybody hits the market. I have to admit it. But 822 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: you know I watched that show. I have to say 823 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: I am a fan of that show. My wife turned 824 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: me onto it years ago, and it's just the reason 825 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: that that show is so unique in terms of comedy 826 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: is it It does something that you haven't seen since, 827 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: like the Howard Hawks comedies. And it's funny. But it's 828 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: operating at a speed that I would call his girl 829 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 1: Friday speed the lines, rapid fire, don't wait, yeah, don't wait, 830 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: don't wait. It's like, you know, we're not waiting for 831 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: the laughter. We all kind of huddled up at one point. 832 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: I mean it was unspoken, but we said, we really 833 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: have to play this fast, right, and it's slow down 834 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: it it's it has the same level of of rapid 835 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: fire banter as any as the best sort of carry 836 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: Grant Rosalind Russell type. You know, the speed at which 837 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: team is good. Well, it really works and it's unique. 838 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: There's so much that is is so much more careful 839 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: and languid, and so is to my taste, less funny. 840 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: Just I like it to be fair. I look forward 841 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: to seeing what you do next. I can't wait. Let 842 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: me think that movie thing I think you can make, 843 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, listen, may be back to you about that. 844 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: I got a proposal for about Yeah. I got an idea. 845 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: Tell your son to go to film school and the 846 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: director is your son, and he wouldn't dare touch your script. 847 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: Believe me that he'd be out of the will in 848 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: two years. I mean, that's a that's a recipe for 849 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: At some point I was working on my wife is 850 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: a novelist. And at some point George Paulcanos, the guy 851 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: I worked with routinely, We're looking at a project and 852 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: he says, you know, we really need a good, strong 853 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: female writer. And I said, you know, why don't you 854 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: ask Laura to come into the writer's room on this? 855 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, why don't you just call 856 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: the lawyer now you want? You know, I'm gonna be 857 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: in the writer's room. You know, George, you know how 858 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: badly we treat each other. You know, can you imagine 859 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: trying to do this with somebody? You know? And uh, 860 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: he's been persistent, but like that, you know, there has 861 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: to be something. There has to be some you know, 862 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: every child should go off and find their own joy 863 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: and they should not be burdened by and and you 864 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: know he can he can play felonious monk to death. 865 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: And he's nineteen. I said that I can't figure out how, 866 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,959 Speaker 1: how what how he's doing his quarters seventeen and a half. 867 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: And and you try to explain this to them, and 868 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: it's all right. I say, I say, you're gonna turn 869 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: around at my age and you're gonna be realized that 870 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: you postponed doing certain things to be happy. And I 871 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: say to my daughter, now, I said, you don't postpone 872 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 1: that journey or that consideration of what makes you happy, 873 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: because because I'm doing this, and it doesn't always make 874 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: me happy. When I'm doing in this business, it's a job. 875 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes it does well. The trick in this business is 876 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: knowing when you're no longer at least if you're if 877 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: you're operating as a writer. This may not be, but 878 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: I think it's probably true for an actor too, But 879 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: when you're no longer doing work, that is that the 880 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: journey itself is interesting. And when you're doing work, that is, 881 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: you're saying either the same thing that you've already said before, 882 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 1: or you're saying the same thing to no purpose, like well, okay, 883 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: this is this is what they're paying me for today. 884 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 1: It's like that's the point at which you know it's 885 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: time to do something else. And it's like the one 886 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: thing that David Mills told me and he died. You know, 887 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: a guy who I wrote my first script with came 888 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: with me on Trema was producer and Tremay and he 889 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: he died of of an aneurism before the show came out. 890 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: It was on set collapsed. I mean, I missed him 891 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: to this day. But he's he told me something. He said, 892 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: he goes the only reason that you're he he went 893 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: out to l a full bour and tried to get 894 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: a network show development deals and he went through the 895 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: whole route. He's the amazing thing is and he told me, 896 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,879 Speaker 1: don't lose this is you are okay if they come 897 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: to you and say that, you know, it's all been 898 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: very nice, but nobody watches your ship and and we're 899 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: we're gonna go somewhere else, and you know, we're done 900 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: with you. And it's like at no point, like you know, 901 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 1: if somebody has a hit with a courtroom show, everyone's 902 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: running around trying to figure out how to do a 903 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: courtroom show. If everyone is a medical show, because you're 904 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 1: the only guy in this freaking end street, that basically 905 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: is okay if they throw you off, if the plate 906 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: spins and you fall off the plate. And I've always 907 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: had that in the back of my pockets, like the 908 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: wandering Jew of you know, I got a bag packed 909 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: when when there's no longer a place for what I'm 910 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: trying to do. It's okay. It sounds like in one 911 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: sense that a show business career. And I mean, although 912 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: the shows were not you know, you're not, uh, these 913 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: television shows haven't been these juggernauts, let's say, like would 914 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: not by any means no, but but but no but 915 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: but that aside, I mean, but I'm saying that doesn't matter. 916 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: I mean that they've been very well regarded and very 917 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 1: well respected people to people, but I love the wire. 918 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: It's like hashish to them. I mean, they love this 919 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 1: thing and been for you. You have this. It seems 920 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: very healthy attitude because this was all an accident anyway, right, 921 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm on borrowed time since the moment 922 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: I got into this industry. This is not where you 923 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: were sailing your ship to beginning, And I feel I 924 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: feel the guilt of an apostate who has had a 925 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: marvelous run, you know, since he left the religion. So 926 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: I'm it's okay. If if HBO were to come to 927 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: me and say we're never making another hour with you, 928 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: and you know, and you know, good luck and God bless, 929 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,879 Speaker 1: I'd still cross the street to give him a hug 930 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: if I saw him coming the other way three years later, 931 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: and if I never worked. It's like this has been 932 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: something that was totally unexpected, that it happened at a 933 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: time where newspapers were collapsing all around me. It was 934 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: just fortuitous, you know, because there was a part of 935 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: me that was really torn when this started happening. To 936 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: this day, I missed reporting. So it's okay whatever happens. 937 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people in this industry that, 938 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, staying on top at any cost, and and 939 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: they'll find themselves telling stories they don't actually care about 940 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: because that's the story that somebody else wants. And that, 941 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: to me is like a journey to hell. So and 942 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: I can see how it happens. And let's face it, 943 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of money in this industry, 944 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: so it can happen. But man, the only thing healthy 945 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: he said, He said, you've got a lot of unhealthy 946 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: ship in your head, Dave. But the one thing said was, 947 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, is that you're okay if it ends. M h. 948 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: It's highly unlikely that end is coming anytime soon. But 949 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: until David Simon creates his next series, fans will have 950 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: to settle for rescreening episodes from their boxed sets. This 951 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.