WEBVTT - Obstacles to Trump's Mass Deportation Plan 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:10.400 The day I take the. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.400 Oath of office, the migrant invasion of our country ends, 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:19.760 and the restoration of our country begins. Donald Trump energized 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.880 his supporters on the campaign trail with a litany of 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.600 anti immigrant statements and promises of securing the border and 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:32.440 carrying out the largest mass deportations in US history. His 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:37.240 election sets the stage for a crackdown on undocumented immigrants 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.520 and a rollback of measures that allow some to remain 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.320 in the country legally, but his plans face legal, logistical, 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.120 and financial obstacles. Joining me is an expert in immigration law, 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.040 Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland and Knight and the 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.160 former head of the Office of Immigration Litigation at the 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.760 Department of Justice during the Obama administration. Let's start with 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:06.440 his pledge to carry out the largest nass deportations in 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.640 US history. Just how would he carry that out and 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:11.760 what would some of the obstacles be. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.680 It's going to be a multi stage process, and it's 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.520 going to require an all hands on that governmental approach, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.920 because this is not just a matter of the Department 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.920 of Homeland Security or ICE or the border. It's going 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.840 to require the State Department, it's going to require the 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.080 entire diplomatic core, negotiating with all of the countries in 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.280 South America, in the Middle East, and in China that 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.920 we're trying to actually deport people too. And so this 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.319 is not going to be a very simple first step. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.319 There's the first issue, which is identifying people to deport. 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.280 So how does one do that. There is some belief, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.280 and you've heard Tom Homan, who's the person now appointed 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.080 to lead this operation, was the former ICE director, say 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.480 in various contexts that this isn't going to just be 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.920 a grab bag where individuals are simply apprehended for no reason, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:08.720 but that there's going to be a targeted effort here. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:13.360 So the first targeted effort would obviously be criminal non citizens. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.600 So anybody with a criminal record is going to be 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.200 the number one top priority for removal. So the question is, well, 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.720 when you apprehend those individuals, where do you put them? 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.280 There's about forty to forty five thousand beds that are 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:32.119 available right now for such a purpose. Obviously, if you're 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.919 doing the largest deportation program in history, you're going to 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.840 need a lot more beds. Where are those beds coming from. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.200 We've heard the idea that that could be a military basis, 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.640 that there would be barrack for that purpose. So fine, 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.880 you place people in those military barracks, you have them 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.360 in detention, you put them in detention proceeding, and the 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.600 question is will there be a place to actually deport 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:59.880 those people to when this is all said and done. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.920 Will there be countries that are willing to actually accept 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.360 these individuals? So that's where again, the State Department is 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.800 going to have to play in. Secondly, are you going 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.639 to need to do a whole due process deportation hearing 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.000 where these hearings are currently backed up by seven years 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.640 in the immigration court? Or will Trump be able to 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.760 get away with using what's called the Alien Enemies Act, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.799 which is a law that's been around since the late 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.400 seventeen hundred which allows deportation without due process. But you 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:34.160 have to show that a country is specifically trying to 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.560 infiltrate the United States with people designed to destabilize the 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.640 United States. So will that be reviewable in a court 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.240 of law because courts have said that things like that 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.200 in the past are political questions that are not reviewable. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.800 Will they be reviewable, and if they are reviewable, will 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.480 courts actually say that any country people are from is 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.560 actually doing this on purpose, is actually sending criminal foreign 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.440 national into the United States for the purpose of destabilizing 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.280 the country. So all of those are questions that are 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.240 going to have to be grappled with pretty early on 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:14.040 in order to determine whether such an operation could be successful. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.800 According to the Pew Research Center, eleven million immigrants were 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.640 living illegally in the country in twenty twenty two, and 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.760 more than two million have entered illegally since then. I mean, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.680 will it be difficult for ICE to find those who 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:30.560 are here illegally? 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.600 Well, believe it or not, that's actually the easy part 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.120 these days. With all of the artificial intelligence that ICE 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:41.880 has procured in the last several years and databases and documents, 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.799 pretty much anyone who's left any kind of digital footprint, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.680 ICE knows where they are, either from their cell phone, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.920 their car, whether they ordered a pizza, anything of this nature. 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.320 So unless you've been living in the middle of the 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.279 woods as a hermit, ICE will be able to find 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.159 you if it wants to find you, relatively quickly, So 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.760 that's sort of a twentieth century concern. At this point, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.960 the finding is the easy part. The question is what 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:09.760 do you do when you find the person? Where do 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:14.320 you literally detain the person and where do you actually 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.960 deport the person? And that's where the Trump administration is 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:19.599 going to have their work cut out for them. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:25.880 Which countries have not agreed to receive deportation flights, So right. 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.279 Now it's almost impossible to deport anyone to China, which 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.599 is a big source of our removal orders. We have 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.599 tens of thousands of not over one hundred thousand removal 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.800 orders for people who can be deported to China, but 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:42.400 China won't accept those individuals. Cuba is another big one. Cuba. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.520 There's probably hundreds of thousands of Cubans who can be 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.080 deported to Cuba, but Cuba has not and probably will 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.080 not accept people. Given the country is almost in complete ruins, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.359 and there's another hurricane potentially coming there and who knows, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.960 and so the country has so destabilized, accepting hundreds of 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.760 thousands of people is likely not an option there. Venezuela 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.360 has not accepted recently people to be deported back to Venezuela. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.600 Haiti basically has no government they just today fired their 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.960 prime minister, and the question is what do you do 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.680 Visa vi Haiti and how do you deport people there. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:24.320 Nicaragua is another country that doesn't let people get deported 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.279 back to Nicaragua from the United States. And so those 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.640 are just some examples, but pretty much any country, if 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.880 you're going to start doing large numbers of people may 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.600 start objecting to that as saying, look, you're going to 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.599 destabilize our country. Because United States is a big country 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.839 with three hundred and fifty million people, but countries with 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.560 a million people, if you suddenly put in fifty thousand 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.159 deportees who are all criminals, that could lead to quite 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.200 the de stabilization in those countries. And so they may 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:00.200 do everything possible to try to thwart these deportations. Not 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.320 to say that the Trump administration will think that that's 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.160 something to be sympathetic about, but it becomes a challenge 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.200 if they actually can't deport people to these countries. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.080 First of all, Trump said on NBC, I think that 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.800 there's no price tag on this, but I saw estimates 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.800 that put the cost at more than three hundred billion dollars. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.320 Well, it depends what kinds of cost you're incorporating into this. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.400 So first of all, there's the normal cost that everyone 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.840 would agree to include, which are the cost of detention, 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.680 which include obviously care and feeding and medicine and all 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.000 of that for the people while they're in custody, the 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.280 cost of the actual removal itself, the planes that many 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.920 times ICE use as chartered planes to do this, all 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.320 of that. But then they talk about the cost of 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.400 what happens then to the economy, because interestingly, an undocumented 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.520 person when they're working in the United States is a 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.120 net positive to the US federal budget because what's happening 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.640 is they're paying taxes and they're not getting any benefits 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.720 because they don't qualify for any benefits. And so this 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.760 is actually something that the Congressional Budget Office talks about 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.640 all the time. It's only when people get status and 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.520 can get benefits that they become potentially a net negative 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.240 to the budget. But when you remove all these undocumented 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.440 workers from the economy, you actually create a larger budget 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.160 deficit hole, and so that's also being counted toward those 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:27.600 three hundred billion dollars. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.400 There are some immigration policies that Trump wants to put 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.520 in place. Again, why does the remain in Mexico policy. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.360 Explain what that is and tell us how difficult it 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.040 would be to restore it well. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.760 Under the remain in Mexico policy, the way that would 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.640 work is that an individual enters the United States and 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.280 asks for asylum. Their asylum application is put into the 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.720 system and is put in line. But where you wait 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.479 is in Mexico. You don't wait in the United States. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.480 And so that was finally allowed by the Supreme Court 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.000 as legal in twenty nineteen and was about to be 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.319 implemented in earnest by the Trump administration until COVID happened, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.400 And then that didn't end up happening because what happened 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.720 was instead of putting the cases in the line, the 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:19.400 Trump administration simply just rejected people. And that actually continued 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.600 into the Biden administration, and, believe it or not, as 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.760 happening now. So the remain in Mexico policy will only 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.320 be needed if the ban that is currently in place, 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.680 which the Biden administration has in place at the moment, 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.480 is overturned by the courts. Now it is likely to 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.680 be overturned by the courts. That case has sort of 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.040 been slow locked because of the election. I don't think 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.480 that the people suing wanted to destabilize the border situation 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.040 right before the election. But now that the election has happened, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:55.480 that case is back up in the forefront. And if 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.719 the Biden border policy is enjoined, which is essentially a 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.440 band nobody can apply for asylum right now who entered 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.160 I legally into the United States. If that van is 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.760 taken away by the courts and said that that ban 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.240 is illegal, that's when the Trump administration will need to 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.640 use remain in Mexico. And the obstacle there is that 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.400 Mexico has to agree to do this, and a couple 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.920 of things have happened since the last Trump administration. The 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.599 Supreme Court of Mexico has said that that's not possible 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.880 and it's not legal. But the question will be what 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.680 does that mean if Trump threatens Mexico with fifty percent 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.480 tariffs on their cars unless they do this, does the 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:43.160 new president of Mexico, Miss Shinbaum, actually then say, well, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.080 we're gonna have to figure something out with our Supreme 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.200 Court and everything else to make this a possibility, because 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.760 we don't want fifty percent tariffs on our cars. So 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.360 all of these levers are in play. To try to 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.680 figure out whether remain in Mexico needs to be placed 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.520 back into place and can it be played back at 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:00.959 the place. 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:07.200 Next, let's discuss humanitarian parole, which gives immigrants from certain 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.840 countries temporary permission to live and work in the US, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.200 and Biden has made sweeping use of this status. How 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.360 many immigrants are here, would you say under humanitarian parole? 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:25.160 Well, between Ukraine and Cuba and Haiti and Nicaragua and Venezuela, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.440 we're probably talking about several hundred thousand people. You know, 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.160 two to three hundred thousand people have been let in 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.840 with these humanitarian paroles that when they expire they will 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.680 not have lawful status anymore. 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.240 So that would be pretty easy for Trump to get 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:39.800 rid of them. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.240 Correct. There's a couple of things there, which is that 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.120 when those paroles expire, he will not renew them. And 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.520 then the question is what will those people do? Will 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.320 they apply for asylum? Will some of them be eldest? 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.520 You know, for the Ukrainians, for instance, what does an 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.959 asylum system look like? Because if the war's over, then 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.000 they can go back to Ukraine. There's nobody persecuting them. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.240 And if the war's not over, what is the status 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.040 of those planes still because they're still not technically being 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.839 persecuted in Ukraine, they would just be evading a war, 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.120 and so it's not clear what would happen to those 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.040 asylum planes. And then with regard to Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:22.239 and Venezuela, I mean, asylum planes are possible from those countries. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.680 But will all those people apply for asylum. One would 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.520 assume they would just to slow things down. How many 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.640 of those will ultimately be meritorious? Will the government place 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.080 those cases in the front of the line to get 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.120 them out or will they be placed in the back 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.959 of a seven and they hear current line? Those are 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.559 all questions left to be answered. 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.960 Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with Leon Fresco. Well, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.040 immigration officials in the second Trump administration avoid some of 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.000 the problems in the first. This is Bloomberg. Donald Trump 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.600 has pledged to crack down swiftly on illegal immigration, including 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.760 by curbing asylum, supporting millillions of immigrants in the United 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:07.120 States illegally, and even restarting construction of the Wall. I've 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.040 been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco about some 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:16.920 of the challenges Trump will face both legal, logistical and financial. 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.080 Leon can Trump just say eh, we're not doing asylum anymore. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.120 They can for the people crossing the border, but once 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.120 you're inside the United States, you can apply for asylum, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.320 and there's nothing that the government can do to stop that. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.120 And so all of these people who have been parolled 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.079 in I have every right to ask for asylum. And 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.000 the question will be whether those cases get prioritized so 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.760 that they get moved along first, or whether they get 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.160 placed in the back of the line because they want 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.280 to keep the border crossing cases first, and these people 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.040 have already crossed the border, and so that's going to 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.200 be a very complicated challenge for the Trump administration to 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:57.520 try to determine. 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.800 Biden has also used something called temper Very Protected Status, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.320 which is another program that provides work permits and a 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.920 deportation shield for immigrants from certain countries like Haiti. 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.840 Correct there's also hundreds of thousands of people here on 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.320 temporary protected status from over a dozen countries at this point. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.640 And here again, when Trump was president between twenty seventeen 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.240 and twenty twenty, he tried to cancel them all. There 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.360 was lawsuits, and those lawsuits ended up getting settled during 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.800 the Biden administration. They didn't end up getting resolved during 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.160 the Trump administration, and so he will have to again 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.880 try to circumvent the moustrom of these TPS litigation and 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.040 lawsuits to try to see if he can do it. 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.119 But if he can do it and allow them to expire, 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.880 then that's going to be another few hundred thousand people 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.800 that simply lose their status when that expires. That includes 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.360 the famous Asians in Springfield, Ohio that were of such 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.080 a note during the election. And if all of those 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.480 folks lose their status again, they'll probably all end up 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.400 applying for asylum and hoping that they can survive the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.800 four years of the Trump administration without their cases being heard. 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.000 And that's going to be very interesting to see now. 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.040 Of course, the Trump administration may try to circumvent that 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.800 with the Alien Enemies Act, but again will of course 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.040 allow them to use the Alien Enemies Act for some 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.960 of these countries where it's clear that those countries probably 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.520 didn't order a migration for the purposes of destabilizing the 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.720 United States. Now, the Trump administration will try as hard 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.160 as it can to build such a record, but their 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:42.760 best hope will be that the court view this as 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:47.880 unreviewable political questions that can even be reviewed, in which case, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.680 if that happens, even if the Trump administration was wrong 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.000 about why it invoked the Alien Enemies Act, if an 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.640 invocation of the Alien Enemies Act can't actually be reviewed 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.880 as a political question, then it will be able to 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.840 place millions of people into deportation quite quickly. Now, again, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.920 they will have to be able to execute those orders 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:16.760 to these countries. If they decide that, fine, what we'll 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:18.840 do is we'll just detain people in the middle of 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.320 nowhere in military barracks until they get thick enough that 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.800 they leave on their own. And so these are all 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.480 potential options that will have to just wait and see 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:29.600 how it plays us. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.560 From what we've been talking about leon, it seems like 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.440 it's going to be difficult for him to carry out 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.400 these mass deportations. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.640 There will be the issue of placing people in final 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.680 order status, will they be able to do that? And 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.000 then there will be the question of actually moving people 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.240 outside the United States, which is a separate, hard question. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.760 So yes, it's going to have to be the top 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.080 priority of the State Department, the Justice Department, and the 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.640 Homeland Security Department in order for that to happen. Probably 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.000 it will be, there's no doubt, but it's going to 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.320 require a whole of government approach that we've never seen before. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.600 And you know, the real situation that will happen is 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.240 that as these stories start to get out in the media, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.240 it starts to derail the momentum for this especially everyone 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.840 knows their person that they know that's not one of 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.720 the bad ones that needs to be deported, but that's 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:30.760 quote unquote one of the good ones. Why is the 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.879 government going after this person? They should be going after 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.439 the bad people. But it turns out most of the 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.920 people won't qualify as the bad people because they'll have 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.600 one or two people who say no, no, no, no, no, 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.280 that's my nanny or that's my person who takes care 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.320 of my parents, my family, et cetera. And it's going 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.840 to be very interesting to see how that plays out. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.640 Will you explain the public charge definition under Biden? What 0:17:58.680 --> 0:17:59.080 that is? 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.760 All that goes all the way back to the late 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.000 eighteen hundred called the public charge ground of an admissibility, 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.160 which says that if you're trying to get legal status 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.560 in America, you can be precluded from doing so by 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.600 the government if the government thinks you're going to be 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.159 dependent upon the taxpayers and that's self sufficient. And so 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.200 there was a rule that was put in place during 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.639 the prior Trump administration to really strengthen that and to 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:30.800 say if anyone hadn't gotten basically a history of employment 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:35.080 in their home country and a history of speaking English, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.600 they could be subject to this public charge ground. And 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.159 so that had actually been allowed by the Supreme Court 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.520 until it was rescinded by the Biden administration. So it 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.720 should be relatively quick for them to put back this 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.520 public charge ground and to really make it difficult for 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.879 anybody who doesn't speak English, or has any history at 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.879 all of getting any kind of government benefits, or is 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.920 a single person that's completely unemployed and doesn't have a relative, 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.800 so for instance, there's not some sort of homemaker where 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.960 there's another spouse who's making the money. Those people would 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.000 be fine, but they're just an individual who's one person 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.080 without a job. All of those people would be subject 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.960 now to this public charge ground that would not let 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.160 them get legal status in the United States. 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:29.360 So during his first term, Trump's immigration actions were repeatedly 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:35.720 stymied in court because they bypassed federal rulemaking requirements under 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.159 the Administrative Procedures Act. Do you think that in a 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.399 second term, You know, they'll know better and they'll go 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.200 buy the Administrative Procedures Act. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.360 So the second term is going to look a lot 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.240 different than the first for a couple of reasons. First, 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:53.679 the court has shrunk significantly who has standing to file 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.840 these lawsuits. So a lot of times the states, for instance, 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.200 when there was a travel ban, rival ban was actually 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.119 filed by the state of Hawaii and the State of Washington. 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.760 States are going to have a lot less ability to 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.439 have standing than before, although it's not fully precluded, but 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.680 it's been shrunk. So that's number one, and then number two. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:21.840 The courts also have dramatically reduced when injunctive relief is available. 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:23.960 So what the courts have been doing is they've been 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.439 saying injunctive relief is only going to be available on 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.040 a case by case basis, and there won't be this 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.639 programmatic nationwide injunction that you can just go and get 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.320 in one district court and that'll be it. You'll actually 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.480 have to go through a process where a bunch of 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:45.280 individuals get injunctive relief and then maybe that stops the policy. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.800 And so because of that, that's all going to strengthen 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.720 Trump's hands while he's doing this deportation. 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.600 What do you think of Trump making Tom Homan the 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:02.560 borders are He's the official behind the family separations during 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.680 the first Trump administration. 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.360 Right, Yeah, So I'm personally a bit conflicted because I've 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.040 worked with Tom Holman when I was a Department of Justice, 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:11.879 and I think he's a very nice man, and him 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.040 and I get along very well and have a wonderful relationship. 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.639 So just for me, a question of whether you agree 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:19.520 with the policy that's going to be put in place 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.200 because Tom Holman, the thing I can say about him 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.639 is he has always been, under many different presidents, a 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:29.399 public servant who salutes the flag, and when people have 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.880 given him a lawful order, he has executed the lawful order, 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:37.800 whether it be prosecutorial discretion or whether it be deportation. Now, 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.119 while he has gone off on his own as a 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:46.280 private citizen, he has taken a very restrictionist talking point. 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.320 And so this is what he's being charged to do now, 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.600 is to lead the largest deportation program in history. To 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.960 be fair to him and to President Trump, they did 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.160 campaign on that, so it's not a secret. Anybody who 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.240 wanted that to be avoided should not have voted for 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.440 President Trump. But now that President Trump has won and 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.240 he campaigned on that promise, this is what Tom Holman 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.199 is going to be doing now. The one thing I 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:16.520 will say is because he comes from Ice and because 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.600 he has lived this for several decades, he understands the 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:25.800 actual challenges from a legal and logistical standpoint in a 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.960 way that appointing somebody who's a more political person but 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.600 less of a detail oriented person wouldn't know. And that's 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.080 why I've heard Tom Holman say things like, look, we're 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.879 gonna have priorities, We're going to have certain people that 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.760 we look at first, because at the end of the day, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.800 that's actually how you have to do this. You can't 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.919 just willy nearly round up millions of people. That's not 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:49.960 going to be operationally possible. 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.640 Here, let me ask you the big question, leon which 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:57.480 you have addressed in different ways in our conversation. Will 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:02.439 Trump be able to carry out the largest deportation of 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:04.960 immigrants in our history? 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.320 Here is what I said. I think because people don't 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.679 remember what happened in two thousand and seven. Two thousand 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.600 and seven was the last time there was actually any 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:21.080 significant robust immigration enforcement in the middle of the streets. 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.040 Even Trump, to his credit, actually from twenty seventeen to 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.679 twenty twenty didn't have these sort of large scale rays 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.639