1
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 1: The day I take the.

3
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 2: Oath of office, the migrant invasion of our country ends,

4
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 2: and the restoration of our country begins. Donald Trump energized

5
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 2: his supporters on the campaign trail with a litany of

6
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,600
Speaker 2: anti immigrant statements and promises of securing the border and

7
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,440
Speaker 2: carrying out the largest mass deportations in US history. His

8
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 2: election sets the stage for a crackdown on undocumented immigrants

9
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,520
Speaker 2: and a rollback of measures that allow some to remain

10
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 2: in the country legally, but his plans face legal, logistical,

11
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 2: and financial obstacles. Joining me is an expert in immigration law,

12
00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 2: Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland and Knight and the

13
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 2: former head of the Office of Immigration Litigation at the

14
00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 2: Department of Justice during the Obama administration. Let's start with

15
00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 2: his pledge to carry out the largest nass deportations in

16
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 2: US history. Just how would he carry that out and

17
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 2: what would some of the obstacles be.

18
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,680
Speaker 1: It's going to be a multi stage process, and it's

19
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,520
Speaker 1: going to require an all hands on that governmental approach,

20
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: because this is not just a matter of the Department

21
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,920
Speaker 1: of Homeland Security or ICE or the border. It's going

22
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: to require the State Department, it's going to require the

23
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 1: entire diplomatic core, negotiating with all of the countries in

24
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: South America, in the Middle East, and in China that

25
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 1: we're trying to actually deport people too. And so this

26
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,319
Speaker 1: is not going to be a very simple first step.

27
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,319
Speaker 1: There's the first issue, which is identifying people to deport.

28
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,280
Speaker 1: So how does one do that. There is some belief,

29
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,280
Speaker 1: and you've heard Tom Homan, who's the person now appointed

30
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 1: to lead this operation, was the former ICE director, say

31
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: in various contexts that this isn't going to just be

32
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 1: a grab bag where individuals are simply apprehended for no reason,

33
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 1: but that there's going to be a targeted effort here.

34
00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 1: So the first targeted effort would obviously be criminal non citizens.

35
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 1: So anybody with a criminal record is going to be

36
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 1: the number one top priority for removal. So the question is, well,

37
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 1: when you apprehend those individuals, where do you put them?

38
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: There's about forty to forty five thousand beds that are

39
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,119
Speaker 1: available right now for such a purpose. Obviously, if you're

40
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 1: doing the largest deportation program in history, you're going to

41
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: need a lot more beds. Where are those beds coming from.

42
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 1: We've heard the idea that that could be a military basis,

43
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 1: that there would be barrack for that purpose. So fine,

44
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: you place people in those military barracks, you have them

45
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,360
Speaker 1: in detention, you put them in detention proceeding, and the

46
00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,600
Speaker 1: question is will there be a place to actually deport

47
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,880
Speaker 1: those people to when this is all said and done.

48
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,920
Speaker 1: Will there be countries that are willing to actually accept

49
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 1: these individuals? So that's where again, the State Department is

50
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 1: going to have to play in. Secondly, are you going

51
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 1: to need to do a whole due process deportation hearing

52
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 1: where these hearings are currently backed up by seven years

53
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,640
Speaker 1: in the immigration court? Or will Trump be able to

54
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 1: get away with using what's called the Alien Enemies Act,

55
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 1: which is a law that's been around since the late

56
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred which allows deportation without due process. But you

57
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: have to show that a country is specifically trying to

58
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 1: infiltrate the United States with people designed to destabilize the

59
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,640
Speaker 1: United States. So will that be reviewable in a court

60
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 1: of law because courts have said that things like that

61
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 1: in the past are political questions that are not reviewable.

62
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: Will they be reviewable, and if they are reviewable, will

63
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 1: courts actually say that any country people are from is

64
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 1: actually doing this on purpose, is actually sending criminal foreign

65
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: national into the United States for the purpose of destabilizing

66
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,280
Speaker 1: the country. So all of those are questions that are

67
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,240
Speaker 1: going to have to be grappled with pretty early on

68
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 1: in order to determine whether such an operation could be successful.

69
00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 2: According to the Pew Research Center, eleven million immigrants were

70
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 2: living illegally in the country in twenty twenty two, and

71
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 2: more than two million have entered illegally since then. I mean,

72
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 2: will it be difficult for ICE to find those who

73
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 2: are here illegally?

74
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 1: Well, believe it or not, that's actually the easy part

75
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,120
Speaker 1: these days. With all of the artificial intelligence that ICE

76
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,880
Speaker 1: has procured in the last several years and databases and documents,

77
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,799
Speaker 1: pretty much anyone who's left any kind of digital footprint,

78
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 1: ICE knows where they are, either from their cell phone,

79
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 1: their car, whether they ordered a pizza, anything of this nature.

80
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 1: So unless you've been living in the middle of the

81
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,279
Speaker 1: woods as a hermit, ICE will be able to find

82
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,159
Speaker 1: you if it wants to find you, relatively quickly, So

83
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 1: that's sort of a twentieth century concern. At this point,

84
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 1: the finding is the easy part. The question is what

85
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 1: do you do when you find the person? Where do

86
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 1: you literally detain the person and where do you actually

87
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 1: deport the person? And that's where the Trump administration is

88
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,599
Speaker 1: going to have their work cut out for them.

89
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 2: Which countries have not agreed to receive deportation flights, So right.

90
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 1: Now it's almost impossible to deport anyone to China, which

91
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,599
Speaker 1: is a big source of our removal orders. We have

92
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of not over one hundred thousand removal

93
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,800
Speaker 1: orders for people who can be deported to China, but

94
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: China won't accept those individuals. Cuba is another big one. Cuba.

95
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 1: There's probably hundreds of thousands of Cubans who can be

96
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 1: deported to Cuba, but Cuba has not and probably will

97
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 1: not accept people. Given the country is almost in complete ruins,

98
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,359
Speaker 1: and there's another hurricane potentially coming there and who knows,

99
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: and so the country has so destabilized, accepting hundreds of

100
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 1: thousands of people is likely not an option there. Venezuela

101
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 1: has not accepted recently people to be deported back to Venezuela.

102
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,600
Speaker 1: Haiti basically has no government they just today fired their

103
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 1: prime minister, and the question is what do you do

104
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: Visa vi Haiti and how do you deport people there.

105
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 1: Nicaragua is another country that doesn't let people get deported

106
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 1: back to Nicaragua from the United States. And so those

107
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 1: are just some examples, but pretty much any country, if

108
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,880
Speaker 1: you're going to start doing large numbers of people may

109
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 1: start objecting to that as saying, look, you're going to

110
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,599
Speaker 1: destabilize our country. Because United States is a big country

111
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 1: with three hundred and fifty million people, but countries with

112
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 1: a million people, if you suddenly put in fifty thousand

113
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,159
Speaker 1: deportees who are all criminals, that could lead to quite

114
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 1: the de stabilization in those countries. And so they may

115
00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 1: do everything possible to try to thwart these deportations. Not

116
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,320
Speaker 1: to say that the Trump administration will think that that's

117
00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 1: something to be sympathetic about, but it becomes a challenge

118
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,200
Speaker 1: if they actually can't deport people to these countries.

119
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 2: First of all, Trump said on NBC, I think that

120
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 2: there's no price tag on this, but I saw estimates

121
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,800
Speaker 2: that put the cost at more than three hundred billion dollars.

122
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: Well, it depends what kinds of cost you're incorporating into this.

123
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: So first of all, there's the normal cost that everyone

124
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: would agree to include, which are the cost of detention,

125
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,680
Speaker 1: which include obviously care and feeding and medicine and all

126
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: of that for the people while they're in custody, the

127
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: cost of the actual removal itself, the planes that many

128
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 1: times ICE use as chartered planes to do this, all

129
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 1: of that. But then they talk about the cost of

130
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 1: what happens then to the economy, because interestingly, an undocumented

131
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,520
Speaker 1: person when they're working in the United States is a

132
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: net positive to the US federal budget because what's happening

133
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: is they're paying taxes and they're not getting any benefits

134
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: because they don't qualify for any benefits. And so this

135
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: is actually something that the Congressional Budget Office talks about

136
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: all the time. It's only when people get status and

137
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,520
Speaker 1: can get benefits that they become potentially a net negative

138
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,240
Speaker 1: to the budget. But when you remove all these undocumented

139
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 1: workers from the economy, you actually create a larger budget

140
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 1: deficit hole, and so that's also being counted toward those

141
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 1: three hundred billion dollars.

142
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 2: There are some immigration policies that Trump wants to put

143
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 2: in place. Again, why does the remain in Mexico policy.

144
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,360
Speaker 2: Explain what that is and tell us how difficult it

145
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 2: would be to restore it well.

146
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: Under the remain in Mexico policy, the way that would

147
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: work is that an individual enters the United States and

148
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 1: asks for asylum. Their asylum application is put into the

149
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 1: system and is put in line. But where you wait

150
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,479
Speaker 1: is in Mexico. You don't wait in the United States.

151
00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 1: And so that was finally allowed by the Supreme Court

152
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: as legal in twenty nineteen and was about to be

153
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,319
Speaker 1: implemented in earnest by the Trump administration until COVID happened,

154
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 1: And then that didn't end up happening because what happened

155
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 1: was instead of putting the cases in the line, the

156
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: Trump administration simply just rejected people. And that actually continued

157
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 1: into the Biden administration, and, believe it or not, as

158
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 1: happening now. So the remain in Mexico policy will only

159
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,320
Speaker 1: be needed if the ban that is currently in place,

160
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,680
Speaker 1: which the Biden administration has in place at the moment,

161
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 1: is overturned by the courts. Now it is likely to

162
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,680
Speaker 1: be overturned by the courts. That case has sort of

163
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: been slow locked because of the election. I don't think

164
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: that the people suing wanted to destabilize the border situation

165
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: right before the election. But now that the election has happened,

166
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: that case is back up in the forefront. And if

167
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,719
Speaker 1: the Biden border policy is enjoined, which is essentially a

168
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,440
Speaker 1: band nobody can apply for asylum right now who entered

169
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: I legally into the United States. If that van is

170
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 1: taken away by the courts and said that that ban

171
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 1: is illegal, that's when the Trump administration will need to

172
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,640
Speaker 1: use remain in Mexico. And the obstacle there is that

173
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 1: Mexico has to agree to do this, and a couple

174
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,920
Speaker 1: of things have happened since the last Trump administration. The

175
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,599
Speaker 1: Supreme Court of Mexico has said that that's not possible

176
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 1: and it's not legal. But the question will be what

177
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 1: does that mean if Trump threatens Mexico with fifty percent

178
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 1: tariffs on their cars unless they do this, does the

179
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: new president of Mexico, Miss Shinbaum, actually then say, well,

180
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to figure something out with our Supreme

181
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 1: Court and everything else to make this a possibility, because

182
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 1: we don't want fifty percent tariffs on our cars. So

183
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: all of these levers are in play. To try to

184
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 1: figure out whether remain in Mexico needs to be placed

185
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 1: back into place and can it be played back at

186
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:00,959
Speaker 1: the place.

187
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 2: Next, let's discuss humanitarian parole, which gives immigrants from certain

188
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 2: countries temporary permission to live and work in the US,

189
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,200
Speaker 2: and Biden has made sweeping use of this status. How

190
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 2: many immigrants are here, would you say under humanitarian parole?

191
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 1: Well, between Ukraine and Cuba and Haiti and Nicaragua and Venezuela,

192
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 1: we're probably talking about several hundred thousand people. You know,

193
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 1: two to three hundred thousand people have been let in

194
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 1: with these humanitarian paroles that when they expire they will

195
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 1: not have lawful status anymore.

196
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 2: So that would be pretty easy for Trump to get

197
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 2: rid of them.

198
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 1: Correct. There's a couple of things there, which is that

199
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 1: when those paroles expire, he will not renew them. And

200
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: then the question is what will those people do? Will

201
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,320
Speaker 1: they apply for asylum? Will some of them be eldest?

202
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 1: You know, for the Ukrainians, for instance, what does an

203
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,959
Speaker 1: asylum system look like? Because if the war's over, then

204
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 1: they can go back to Ukraine. There's nobody persecuting them.

205
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,240
Speaker 1: And if the war's not over, what is the status

206
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: of those planes still because they're still not technically being

207
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,839
Speaker 1: persecuted in Ukraine, they would just be evading a war,

208
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 1: and so it's not clear what would happen to those

209
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,040
Speaker 1: asylum planes. And then with regard to Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua

210
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,239
Speaker 1: and Venezuela, I mean, asylum planes are possible from those countries.

211
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 1: But will all those people apply for asylum. One would

212
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,520
Speaker 1: assume they would just to slow things down. How many

213
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 1: of those will ultimately be meritorious? Will the government place

214
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,080
Speaker 1: those cases in the front of the line to get

215
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 1: them out or will they be placed in the back

216
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,959
Speaker 1: of a seven and they hear current line? Those are

217
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,559
Speaker 1: all questions left to be answered.

218
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,960
Speaker 2: Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with Leon Fresco. Well,

219
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 2: immigration officials in the second Trump administration avoid some of

220
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 2: the problems in the first. This is Bloomberg. Donald Trump

221
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 2: has pledged to crack down swiftly on illegal immigration, including

222
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 2: by curbing asylum, supporting millillions of immigrants in the United

223
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 2: States illegally, and even restarting construction of the Wall. I've

224
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 2: been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco about some

225
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 2: of the challenges Trump will face both legal, logistical and financial.

226
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,080
Speaker 2: Leon can Trump just say eh, we're not doing asylum anymore.

227
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: They can for the people crossing the border, but once

228
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,120
Speaker 1: you're inside the United States, you can apply for asylum,

229
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,320
Speaker 1: and there's nothing that the government can do to stop that.

230
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 1: And so all of these people who have been parolled

231
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 1: in I have every right to ask for asylum. And

232
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 1: the question will be whether those cases get prioritized so

233
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 1: that they get moved along first, or whether they get

234
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: placed in the back of the line because they want

235
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: to keep the border crossing cases first, and these people

236
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 1: have already crossed the border, and so that's going to

237
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,200
Speaker 1: be a very complicated challenge for the Trump administration to

238
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 1: try to determine.

239
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,800
Speaker 2: Biden has also used something called temper Very Protected Status,

240
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 2: which is another program that provides work permits and a

241
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 2: deportation shield for immigrants from certain countries like Haiti.

242
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 1: Correct there's also hundreds of thousands of people here on

243
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,320
Speaker 1: temporary protected status from over a dozen countries at this point.

244
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 1: And here again, when Trump was president between twenty seventeen

245
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty, he tried to cancel them all. There

246
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: was lawsuits, and those lawsuits ended up getting settled during

247
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 1: the Biden administration. They didn't end up getting resolved during

248
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: the Trump administration, and so he will have to again

249
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,880
Speaker 1: try to circumvent the moustrom of these TPS litigation and

250
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 1: lawsuits to try to see if he can do it.

251
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,119
Speaker 1: But if he can do it and allow them to expire,

252
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,880
Speaker 1: then that's going to be another few hundred thousand people

253
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 1: that simply lose their status when that expires. That includes

254
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: the famous Asians in Springfield, Ohio that were of such

255
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 1: a note during the election. And if all of those

256
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: folks lose their status again, they'll probably all end up

257
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,400
Speaker 1: applying for asylum and hoping that they can survive the

258
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,800
Speaker 1: four years of the Trump administration without their cases being heard.

259
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: And that's going to be very interesting to see now.

260
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: Of course, the Trump administration may try to circumvent that

261
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: with the Alien Enemies Act, but again will of course

262
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,040
Speaker 1: allow them to use the Alien Enemies Act for some

263
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 1: of these countries where it's clear that those countries probably

264
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: didn't order a migration for the purposes of destabilizing the

265
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: United States. Now, the Trump administration will try as hard

266
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 1: as it can to build such a record, but their

267
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: best hope will be that the court view this as

268
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 1: unreviewable political questions that can even be reviewed, in which case,

269
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 1: if that happens, even if the Trump administration was wrong

270
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,000
Speaker 1: about why it invoked the Alien Enemies Act, if an

271
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: invocation of the Alien Enemies Act can't actually be reviewed

272
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 1: as a political question, then it will be able to

273
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 1: place millions of people into deportation quite quickly. Now, again,

274
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 1: they will have to be able to execute those orders

275
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: to these countries. If they decide that, fine, what we'll

276
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 1: do is we'll just detain people in the middle of

277
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 1: nowhere in military barracks until they get thick enough that

278
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: they leave on their own. And so these are all

279
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,480
Speaker 1: potential options that will have to just wait and see

280
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 1: how it plays us.

281
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 2: From what we've been talking about leon, it seems like

282
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,440
Speaker 2: it's going to be difficult for him to carry out

283
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 2: these mass deportations.

284
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 1: There will be the issue of placing people in final

285
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 1: order status, will they be able to do that? And

286
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 1: then there will be the question of actually moving people

287
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: outside the United States, which is a separate, hard question.

288
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 1: So yes, it's going to have to be the top

289
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: priority of the State Department, the Justice Department, and the

290
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: Homeland Security Department in order for that to happen. Probably

291
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: it will be, there's no doubt, but it's going to

292
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 1: require a whole of government approach that we've never seen before.

293
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: And you know, the real situation that will happen is

294
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: that as these stories start to get out in the media,

295
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: it starts to derail the momentum for this especially everyone

296
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 1: knows their person that they know that's not one of

297
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 1: the bad ones that needs to be deported, but that's

298
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 1: quote unquote one of the good ones. Why is the

299
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,879
Speaker 1: government going after this person? They should be going after

300
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,439
Speaker 1: the bad people. But it turns out most of the

301
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 1: people won't qualify as the bad people because they'll have

302
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: one or two people who say no, no, no, no, no,

303
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 1: that's my nanny or that's my person who takes care

304
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 1: of my parents, my family, et cetera. And it's going

305
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: to be very interesting to see how that plays out.

306
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,640
Speaker 2: Will you explain the public charge definition under Biden? What

307
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 2: that is?

308
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,760
Speaker 1: All that goes all the way back to the late

309
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred called the public charge ground of an admissibility,

310
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,160
Speaker 1: which says that if you're trying to get legal status

311
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 1: in America, you can be precluded from doing so by

312
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: the government if the government thinks you're going to be

313
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,159
Speaker 1: dependent upon the taxpayers and that's self sufficient. And so

314
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,200
Speaker 1: there was a rule that was put in place during

315
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 1: the prior Trump administration to really strengthen that and to

316
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: say if anyone hadn't gotten basically a history of employment

317
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 1: in their home country and a history of speaking English,

318
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: they could be subject to this public charge ground. And

319
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 1: so that had actually been allowed by the Supreme Court

320
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: until it was rescinded by the Biden administration. So it

321
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 1: should be relatively quick for them to put back this

322
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: public charge ground and to really make it difficult for

323
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,879
Speaker 1: anybody who doesn't speak English, or has any history at

324
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 1: all of getting any kind of government benefits, or is

325
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 1: a single person that's completely unemployed and doesn't have a relative,

326
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 1: so for instance, there's not some sort of homemaker where

327
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: there's another spouse who's making the money. Those people would

328
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: be fine, but they're just an individual who's one person

329
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: without a job. All of those people would be subject

330
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 1: now to this public charge ground that would not let

331
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 1: them get legal status in the United States.

332
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,360
Speaker 2: So during his first term, Trump's immigration actions were repeatedly

333
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 2: stymied in court because they bypassed federal rulemaking requirements under

334
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,159
Speaker 2: the Administrative Procedures Act. Do you think that in a

335
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 2: second term, You know, they'll know better and they'll go

336
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 2: buy the Administrative Procedures Act.

337
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 1: So the second term is going to look a lot

338
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 1: different than the first for a couple of reasons. First,

339
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 1: the court has shrunk significantly who has standing to file

340
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: these lawsuits. So a lot of times the states, for instance,

341
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 1: when there was a travel ban, rival ban was actually

342
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 1: filed by the state of Hawaii and the State of Washington.

343
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 1: States are going to have a lot less ability to

344
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 1: have standing than before, although it's not fully precluded, but

345
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 1: it's been shrunk. So that's number one, and then number two.

346
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: The courts also have dramatically reduced when injunctive relief is available.

347
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: So what the courts have been doing is they've been

348
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 1: saying injunctive relief is only going to be available on

349
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: a case by case basis, and there won't be this

350
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: programmatic nationwide injunction that you can just go and get

351
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: in one district court and that'll be it. You'll actually

352
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 1: have to go through a process where a bunch of

353
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 1: individuals get injunctive relief and then maybe that stops the policy.

354
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: And so because of that, that's all going to strengthen

355
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 1: Trump's hands while he's doing this deportation.

356
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 2: What do you think of Trump making Tom Homan the

357
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: borders are He's the official behind the family separations during

358
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: the first Trump administration.

359
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,360
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I'm personally a bit conflicted because I've

360
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: worked with Tom Holman when I was a Department of Justice,

361
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: and I think he's a very nice man, and him

362
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: and I get along very well and have a wonderful relationship.

363
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: So just for me, a question of whether you agree

364
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: with the policy that's going to be put in place

365
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: because Tom Holman, the thing I can say about him

366
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: is he has always been, under many different presidents, a

367
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 1: public servant who salutes the flag, and when people have

368
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 1: given him a lawful order, he has executed the lawful order,

369
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: whether it be prosecutorial discretion or whether it be deportation. Now,

370
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: while he has gone off on his own as a

371
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: private citizen, he has taken a very restrictionist talking point.

372
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: And so this is what he's being charged to do now,

373
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: is to lead the largest deportation program in history. To

374
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: be fair to him and to President Trump, they did

375
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,160
Speaker 1: campaign on that, so it's not a secret. Anybody who

376
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: wanted that to be avoided should not have voted for

377
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: President Trump. But now that President Trump has won and

378
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: he campaigned on that promise, this is what Tom Holman

379
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 1: is going to be doing now. The one thing I

380
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: will say is because he comes from Ice and because

381
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: he has lived this for several decades, he understands the

382
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: actual challenges from a legal and logistical standpoint in a

383
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: way that appointing somebody who's a more political person but

384
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: less of a detail oriented person wouldn't know. And that's

385
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: why I've heard Tom Holman say things like, look, we're

386
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: gonna have priorities, We're going to have certain people that

387
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: we look at first, because at the end of the day,

388
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: that's actually how you have to do this. You can't

389
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: just willy nearly round up millions of people. That's not

390
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: going to be operationally possible.

391
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: Here, let me ask you the big question, leon which

392
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: you have addressed in different ways in our conversation. Will

393
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 2: Trump be able to carry out the largest deportation of

394
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: immigrants in our history?

395
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: Here is what I said. I think because people don't

396
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 1: remember what happened in two thousand and seven. Two thousand

397
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: and seven was the last time there was actually any

398
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: significant robust immigration enforcement in the middle of the streets.

399
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: Even Trump, to his credit, actually from twenty seventeen to

400
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: twenty twenty didn't have these sort of large scale rays

401
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 1: of work fits or anything like that. That didn't actually

402
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: happen a lot during the Trump administration. And so the

403
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: point is when that last happened, which was in two

404
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: thousand and seven under George W. Bush, that puts such

405
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: fear in the immigrant community that people stopped going to work,

406
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: people were hiding. It was very complicated, and so what

407
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: I think they're actually trying to accomplish more than anything,

408
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: is like what you're seeing in all these other areas

409
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: with foreign policy and with tariffs and where everything else

410
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: you saw laid down a marker that this is going

411
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: to be the worst thing you've ever seen. And what

412
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: you're hoping it does is it incentivizes enough people to

413
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: self support that you're actually getting banged for the buck

414
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: from that. So I think that's what you're gonna see.

415
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: You are going to see a more robust effort to

416
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: remove people. But I think at the end of the day,

417
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: if four hundred thousand people end up getting removed in

418
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. That might be ambitious based on where

419
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: the infrastructure is now, and so we're not talking about

420
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: ten million, twenty million, whatever million people we'd be talking about.

421
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: But the hope is that if it's done in a

422
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: way that creates enough nervousness in the community, that individuals

423
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: will decide that they can't live with this level of

424
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: nervousness and they would take matters into their own hands

425
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: and leave the country a lot of moving parts.

426
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: That's for sure. Thanks so much, Leon. That's Leon Fresco,

427
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: a partner at Honda Knight. Donald Trump enters his second

428
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: term having appointed three members of the Supreme Court, an

429
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: achievement that led to the current conservative supermajority, which eliminated

430
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: the constitutional right to abortion and slashed the power of

431
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: federal agencies. Trump's campaign pledges, including tariffs, mass deportations, and

432
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: environmental rollbacks, will face legal challenges, and the Court transformed

433
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: by Trump now sits as one of the few potential

434
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: checks on his authority as he returns to the White House.

435
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: Joining me is Bloomberg new Supreme Court reporter Greg Storr,

436
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: who's written about the possible implications. So, Greg, as you write,

437
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: Trump and the Court have had a complicated relationship in

438
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 2: the past, tell us about it.

439
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, this is a Supreme Court that, of course,

440
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: four years ago, refused to intervene in the twenty twenty

441
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: election when he very much wanted them to try to

442
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: overturn Joe Biden's victory. It's also courte that during his

443
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 3: time as president gave him somewhat mixed results. You know,

444
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: if you look just like an immigration sphere. They upheld

445
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 3: this so called travel band that's restricted entry into the

446
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 3: country from certain countries, many of them predominantly Muslim. But

447
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: they also ruled against them on putting a citizenship question

448
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: on the census. And I'm trying to end Barack Obama's

449
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 3: so called DACA program. So it's not a court that

450
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: has given him the sort of knee jerk we side

451
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: with you sort of rulings that he has suggested he wants.

452
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: Now, this surprised me. According to a database compiled by

453
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: professors at Washington University in Saint Louis and Penn State University,

454
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: his previous administration had the lowest win rate at the

455
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: Supreme Court in modern history.

456
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it surprises me every time I look at it.

457
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: The researchers include Lee Epstein at Washington University of Saint Louis,

458
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: and it shows that four years Donald Trump succeeded only

459
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: forty two percent of the time. Those are cases where

460
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 3: either he or his administration were a party, and just

461
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 3: throw out a few other numbers. Barack Obama sixty eighty

462
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: fifty percent of the time, Joe Biden so far fifty

463
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: four percent of the time, and then you go further

464
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 3: back and presidents do much much better. So it's pretty striking.

465
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 3: And of course not all those cases are hugely important.

466
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: Ones are ones that we might talk about. But in

467
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 3: terms of sort of the run of the mill cases,

468
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: it is a court that is not, as I said,

469
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 3: necessarily going to need your side with Donald Trump.

470
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: Of course, there is a difference. In his first term,

471
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: he didn't have this conservative super majority that he has now.

472
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: Yes, that is an excellent point that I probably should

473
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: have mentioned earlier as a qualification. So when I talked

474
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: about a couple of those immigration cases, the citizenship question

475
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 3: on the twenty twenty census, the case involving the so

476
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: called DOCA program, which allows one hundreds of thousands of

477
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: young people who came into the country as children let

478
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: them stay in the country. So when the Court said

479
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: Donald Trump can't block that. Both of those decisions were

480
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 3: with a five justice of his majority and with John

481
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: Roberts casting the key vote siding with the liberal in

482
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: those cases. Since then, the Court has shifted even further

483
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 3: to the right. When Bitter Ginsburgh died and Trump replaced

484
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: her with Amy Coney Barrett, we got a six conservative.

485
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: So the dynamic has changed and Trump will have perhaps

486
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: a little bit of an easier path on some of

487
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: these closely divided cases going forward.

488
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: Well, you never know, So let's talk about some of

489
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: the areas that could test the Supreme Court in Trump's

490
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: second term. So Trump has vowed to impose a ten

491
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: to twenty percent tariff on all imported goods. Remind us

492
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: about what happened during his first term with his steal tariffs.

493
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: So during his first term, Donald Trump imposed a twenty

494
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: five percent tariff on imported steel. Lower Court said that

495
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 3: was within his authority under something known as Section two

496
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 3: thirty two of the US Trade Laws, and that says

497
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: the president has broad discretion to impose teriffs for national

498
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: security reasons, and the Supreme Court let those decisions stands.

499
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: It didn't question those tariffs, So you know, one might

500
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: be inclined to say, oh, the Supreme Court is going

501
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: to defer to down Trump on tariffs, But now he's

502
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: talking about imposing across the board terriffs ten to twenty

503
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: percent on everything that comes into the country, and that's

504
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: going to be harder to justify as a national security measure. Now,

505
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: there are other provisions of the trade laws, but the

506
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: bottom line is that it's not something where it's clear

507
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: that the Supreme Court is going to be comfortable with

508
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: the president having that much discretion, either because it reads

509
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: the law as limiting his discression or because there's a

510
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: constitutional matter. The Court doesn't think Congress can give the

511
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: president quite that much discrestion to just impose on his

512
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: own these sweeping tariffs.

513
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: One of the key points in his run for office

514
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: was that he was going to crack down on immigration,

515
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: and Trump actually promised mass deportations of undocumented immigrants. But

516
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: might he face some legal problems with those mass deportations.

517
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: Nay, sure might. The nation's immigration laws, the Immigration Natralization Act,

518
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: says that there are certain things the executive branch can do,

519
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: and certain things it doesn't authorize the executive branch to do.

520
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: So he's going to have to make his case under

521
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: those laws, and then he also will have the Constitution

522
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: that he has to deal with and the due process clause.

523
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: Under established law, the president can't just pluck somebody, or

524
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: the executive branch can't just pluck somebody and immediately shift

525
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: them out of the country. They have a right to

526
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: certain process. And so when you're talking about supporting millions

527
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: and millions of people, those are going to be real

528
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: legal constraints. And given the mixed record he had at

529
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court previously on immigration, it's fair to think

530
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: that it won't be a rubber staff at the Supreme Court.

531
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: There may be some real limit on what he can do.

532
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: Now. I don't know where in his lineup of importance

533
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: this is. But he's also said that he wants to

534
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: end birthright citizenship for the children of undocumented immigrants. I'm

535
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: not even sure you know what that entails.

536
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so with all these things, Donald Trump has

537
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: said a lot of things, and we'll have to wait

538
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: and see exactly what he tries to do. The problem

539
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: is that there's a constitutional provision that has long but

540
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: understood as meaning that if you're born on US soil,

541
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: you are an American citizen. Now, that long standing understanding

542
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: is not universal. There are folks who argue that there's

543
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: a different way to interpret that provision to borrow people

544
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 3: who come in intentionally to have a baby in the country.

545
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: But in any event, that one may be especially big

546
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: uphill climb that Donald Trump does pursue.

547
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: That energy in the environment, he's expected to have almost

548
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: diametrically opposed views from Biden. And what's interesting you point

549
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: this out is that you know, the Supreme Court has

550
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 2: been for the last few years attacking and trying to

551
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: dismantle federal regisulatory power. So how does that help or

552
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: hurt him?

553
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could come back to bite him. Let's start

554
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: with that big decision known as Low for Dry at

555
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court just handed down that says that it's

556
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: no longer going to defer to agencies on the meaning

557
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: of ambiguous statute. That is a ruling that toanents of

558
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: regulation generally liked. But it's also a ruling that could

559
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: come back and bte a conservative administration a deregulatory administration

560
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: if what the Trump administration says, either through the EPA

561
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: or some other agency that says, here's how we interpret

562
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: this law. It means we're going to have less regulation

563
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: than we used to the Supreme Court under this ruling

564
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: will say, you know, we're actually going to be the

565
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 3: one that determine what that law means and what you

566
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: can and cannot do. So it may mean, ironically, perhaps

567
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: closer scrutiny of what the Trump administration is trying to

568
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: do at its administrative agencies.

569
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: So now let's just discuss some of the the cases

570
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: that the Court rejected today, one involving New York City's

571
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: rent control system, which has been up at the Court before.

572
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 3: It has the Court has turned away on three different

573
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: occasions now appeals that challenge the rent control restrictions as

574
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: being unconstitutional, and today the Court turned away two appeals,

575
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: one from property owners in New York City and Yonkers,

576
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: another by landmards in Westchester County. They were challenging various

577
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 3: aspects of New York's sweeping rent control rules, including the

578
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: restrictions on landlords we want to reclaim units for personal

579
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: use or want to convert them to condos or co

580
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: ops to the court as is usually the case when

581
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: it denies a petition. Made no comment, gave me no explanation,

582
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: but one Justice Neil Gorsich said that he would have

583
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: heard the appeals, so I strongly suspected we will see

584
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: future challenges and ultimately it's possible the court will agree

585
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: to take them up. This is an issue whether these

586
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: restrictions unconstitutionally take private property without just compensation. It's an

587
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 3: issue that many people feel very strongly about, and I

588
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: would be surprised if we don't see more appeals challenging

589
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 3: the system now.

590
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: Former Trump White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is

591
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: still facing that Georgia election interference case, and he got

592
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: turned down by the Supreme Court today as well.

593
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: Yes, and a preface by saying the prosecution is on

594
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: hold for unrelated reasons. Appeals court in Georgia is considering

595
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: whether the prosecutor finding Willis needs to be removed because

596
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: of a romantic relationship she had with one of the prosecutors.

597
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: But what the Supreme Court dealt with is Mark Meadows

598
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: was trying to move the prosecution from state court in

599
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 3: the federal court that potentially would give Meadows a better

600
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: jury pool. If this case were to go to trial,

601
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: he was invoking with known as federal officer removal, which

602
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: basically means if you're a federal officer, you might be

603
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 3: able to say, hey, this case against me should be

604
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: in federal court. And a lower court said, now you're

605
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: no longer a government employee and the stuff you would

606
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: allegedly did was not official business, so you can't use

607
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: this federal officer removal power to shift the federal court.

608
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: The Supreme Court today said we're not going to take

609
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 3: your appeal, Mark Meadows. One thing just to note, because

610
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: this is a state law prosecution, this is not a

611
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: case where Donald Trump, when it becomes president, can make

612
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: it go away. You can't order prosecutors to drop it.

613
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 3: It's at least possible that this case will go forward,

614
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 3: perhaps not against Donald Trump, but against other defendants in

615
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: this case. They are all accused of taking part in

616
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: this scheme to overturn the twenty twenty election results, and

617
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: Georgia prosecutors say they violated a state racketeering law.

618
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court also turned down a lot of turndowns today,

619
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: a case that curbs the Justice Department's ability to prosecute

620
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: people and companies.

621
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 3: For bid rigging is basically what it sounds like, which is,

622
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: if companies that are bidding for sane government contract agree

623
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: that one of the two of them is going to

624
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: get the low bid, that can violate the anti trust laws.

625
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 3: And the long standing understanding, at least according to the

626
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 3: Justice Department, was if you do that, if you agree

627
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 3: with a competitor on what your bids are going to be,

628
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: that is basically automatically in anti trust violation, and we

629
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: will prosecute you criminally for that. And a federal appeals

630
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 3: court in this case coming out of North Carolina said no,

631
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: it's not automatically an anti trust violation. You have to

632
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: look at whether there were potentially pro competitive justifications. So

633
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: this is a case where the two companies also had

634
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: supply or arrangements, so they were bidding for these construction contracts,

635
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: and one of the companies, in addition to bidding on

636
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: the contract, would also supply the needed aluminum to the

637
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: other company. And so what the Fourth Circuit said was

638
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 3: you have to look at all that stuff to figure

639
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: out whether the agreements on what the bids were going

640
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: to be was actually an anti trust violation. The Justice

641
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 3: Department went to the Supreme Court and said that's a

642
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: big deal and it's going to make it much harder

643
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 3: for us to press these criminal price fixing, criminal bid

644
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: rigging prosecutions. And the Supreme Court said, sorry, we're not

645
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 3: going to hear your appeal, so that tougher standards and

646
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: the Justice Department to meet is now for the foreseeable

647
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 3: feature in place in five minute Atlantic States. It's something

648
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 3: to watch because it could be an issue that crops

649
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: up in other circuits and eventually the Supreme Court may

650
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 3: have to decide it.

651
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Greg, always a pleasure. That's Bloomberg Supreme

652
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: Court Reporter Greg Store And that's it for this edition

653
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get

654
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. You

655
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www

656
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember

657
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: to tune into The Bloomberg Las Show every weeknight at

658
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're

659
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: listening to Bloomberg