WEBVTT - Businessweek Talks- Compass Pathways CEO George Goldsmith

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>So in an upcoming edition of Bloomberg Business Week Talks

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<v Speaker 1>that we featured in the magazine, we're gonna talk to

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<v Speaker 1>one of this year's successful I p o s, which

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<v Speaker 1>is up more than a hundred percent since its debut

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<v Speaker 1>as an a d R in the New York Stock

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<v Speaker 1>Exchange in September. It's the company that has patented a

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<v Speaker 1>synthetic version of the active ingredient in so called magic

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<v Speaker 1>mushrooms for use in treatment resistant depression. We're delighted to

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to Bloomberg Radio Compass Pathways chairman, CEO and co

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<v Speaker 1>founder George Goldsmith, who joins us on the phone overseas

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<v Speaker 1>in Europe, Georgia. Is so great to have you here

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<v Speaker 1>with us. We've been talking about your company since it

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<v Speaker 1>was featured in Business Week magazine. How are you. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>doing well, Carol, and thank you so much for having

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<v Speaker 1>me on. Well, it's great, it's great to have you here,

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<v Speaker 1>and what a year it's been, and what a year

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<v Speaker 1>Togo public Um. First of all, tell us a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about your company and how you came across this,

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<v Speaker 1>because I do understand it's a pretty personal story. UM. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>it is a personal story, and I think that in

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<v Speaker 1>many ways, so many interesting companies do for him that way.

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<v Speaker 1>And so from our point of view, we had our

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<v Speaker 1>son really struggled with mental health issues when he went

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<v Speaker 1>to university, like far too many young people do. We thought,

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<v Speaker 1>how hard could this be? You know, they're good treatments

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<v Speaker 1>and therapies. Yet the more he encountered, the more difficult

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<v Speaker 1>it was for him to be recognizable to us with

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<v Speaker 1>the side effects, and it didn't really help him. So

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<v Speaker 1>we then started talking to lots of different people doing

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<v Speaker 1>our own research. My co founder and wife, he carried

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<v Speaker 1>amount of dis guy as a doctor, and and in

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<v Speaker 1>her own researchers she stumbled across psilocybin and philocybin research

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<v Speaker 1>and we became really intrigued by this. Um. The other

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<v Speaker 1>thing that happened simultaneously is the more people we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about our own challenges that we were facing, the more

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<v Speaker 1>we heard from others about their challenges. And these would

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<v Speaker 1>be long term friends who we've known for a while,

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<v Speaker 1>but they never felt comfortable sharing their own challenges until

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<v Speaker 1>we did. And that really led us to to understand

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<v Speaker 1>that almost everybody has a story of you know, how

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<v Speaker 1>the current system isn't quite helping enough people well enough,

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<v Speaker 1>and that really inspired us to look at this research.

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<v Speaker 1>We saw this promise and and the issue is how

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<v Speaker 1>do we bring it to patients, not just bring it

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<v Speaker 1>into the next journal article. And journal articles are critically important,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're necessary but not sufficient to bring this to patients.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's really our academic well and I do you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting. I was doing some reading on this and

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<v Speaker 1>that my understanding is for those, you know, patients and

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<v Speaker 1>individuals who deal with and and suffer depression, that they're

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<v Speaker 1>the existing treatments only really work for about seventy patients,

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<v Speaker 1>leaving as many as ninety millions still struggling around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's some world health organization. So it is

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<v Speaker 1>a huge and I hate to put it in business terms,

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<v Speaker 1>but we are Bloomberg. It's a huge market. It is

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<v Speaker 1>but giving great markets of suffering. But it is a

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<v Speaker 1>huge market right in that sense. And so there's a

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<v Speaker 1>tremendous amount of suffering and I think we've been pretty

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<v Speaker 1>good at developing tools to ameliorate of that. But the

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<v Speaker 1>is quite quite difficult because what happens is with each

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<v Speaker 1>new treatment, those people actually have less and less likelihood

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<v Speaker 1>to be helped by what's next. And there's been very

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<v Speaker 1>large studies in the US by the National Studamental Health,

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<v Speaker 1>and we really have documentation for that. So if we

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<v Speaker 1>have the opportunity to do something unique here, which is

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<v Speaker 1>well do so what we do is we provide a

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<v Speaker 1>very high dose of sulicybin and carefully controlled setting under

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<v Speaker 1>supervision by especially trained therapists. So this isn't anything that

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<v Speaker 1>anyone would do at home and um patients listen to

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<v Speaker 1>a special soundtrack and they're really supported through this process.

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<v Speaker 1>And what happens is that afterwards, for many patients they

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<v Speaker 1>experience an immediate reduction and depression that actually lasts for

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<v Speaker 1>quite a while. What are research really looking at is well,

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<v Speaker 1>who benefits not everyone, so who doesn't and what separates

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<v Speaker 1>the people who benefit for a few weeks from the

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<v Speaker 1>single dose for a few months of people who actually

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<v Speaker 1>have even longer experiences. So we've went to the FDA

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<v Speaker 1>and actually we're operating now in ten countries dueing clinical research,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one research sites, and we're really looking at how

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<v Speaker 1>do we do the real deep research to generate the

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<v Speaker 1>information and insight we need to go to what's the

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<v Speaker 1>next phase for US, which would be Phase three trials,

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll be putting out on our Phase two trials

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<v Speaker 1>about a year from now. So we've been really excited

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<v Speaker 1>about the progress. And I should say that the FDA

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<v Speaker 1>has named your experimental treatment quote a breakthrough therapy, which is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, really wonderful to kind of get that acknowledgement,

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<v Speaker 1>but it also means now you've got to do more rigorous,

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<v Speaker 1>more risk adverse testing. It's a lot of pressure, I'm assuming,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've got to make sure you're working with the

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<v Speaker 1>right scientists, the best scientists, the best clinical trials correct well,

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely and absolutely and then even more so right because

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<v Speaker 1>obviously there's a history here um as what we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>to do is the highest quality, rigorous, most rigorous research.

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<v Speaker 1>The first support of Call for US was actually even

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<v Speaker 1>before we formed the company, to speak with regulators players

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<v Speaker 1>just to understand what did they think about this and

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<v Speaker 1>what we were really struck by in all the conversations,

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<v Speaker 1>and the breakthrough therapy designation is I think a perfect

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<v Speaker 1>example of this. The problem is so big, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>what you said, you know, there's such a huge amount

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<v Speaker 1>of suffering here. The tools we have are good for some,

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<v Speaker 1>but not good enough. They saw this is the promising

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<v Speaker 1>So what we found is that a huge amount of support.

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<v Speaker 1>But we really have to get this right, and we

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<v Speaker 1>have to get it right for patients, for their families

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<v Speaker 1>and society. Just got about a minute. Then I've got

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<v Speaker 1>to do some news and then we'll come back. But

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<v Speaker 1>how big of a market opportunity do you think is

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<v Speaker 1>there for compass pathways? Just quickly? Well, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>what we see and since not obviously they're about ninety

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<v Speaker 1>million people suffering from so called treatment resistent depression. But

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<v Speaker 1>to be clear, this isn't people who is not a

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<v Speaker 1>group of people who are resisting treatment. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>group of people for whom are treatment stoke work and

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<v Speaker 1>so perhaps you know, I think this is really really important,

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<v Speaker 1>But that's just the start, because really what we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at is working on areas of mental health where people

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<v Speaker 1>get caught in patterns of negative thinking or patterns of

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<v Speaker 1>obsessive thinking that happens in other areas like anxiety or

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<v Speaker 1>O c D or other things. And we're really curious

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<v Speaker 1>about how could this mechanism of a high dose of

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<v Speaker 1>psilocybin therapy yield benefit for other classes of people who

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<v Speaker 1>aren't helped enough. So is this like a potentially a

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<v Speaker 1>multibillion dollar rug potential just quickly, just got about fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>seconds here. Um, Well, I think that it is potential

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<v Speaker 1>to have it be a therapy. It's really important that

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a drug drugs. It's given in constant combination

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<v Speaker 1>with psychological support and that's the critical pick. Hey, So

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<v Speaker 1>before I move on, though, you did say and I

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<v Speaker 1>thought this was a really important distinction, George, as you said,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a drug, it's a potential therapy. Having said that,

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<v Speaker 1>I do think you know, our listeners are curious, um

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<v Speaker 1>about how big that market size might be anxiety disorders

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<v Speaker 1>to prench it the depression treatment market, it's expected to

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<v Speaker 1>be something like twenty one billion. So what's your expectation

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<v Speaker 1>or thoughts on this? So a few things. One is

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate your digging into this. So just to give

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<v Speaker 1>you some and your listeners some perspective, depression is the

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<v Speaker 1>leading cause of disability worldwide, just to pressure UM, and

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<v Speaker 1>in the US, the annual call of depression is forecast

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<v Speaker 1>to be about two hundred billions per year, and a

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<v Speaker 1>large number of that is direct costs of out patients

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<v Speaker 1>in patient medical services pharmaceutical services, and the number you've

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<v Speaker 1>referred to is largely in the pharmaceutical space. Now, what

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<v Speaker 1>we know is that about a third of patients, as

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned, simply aren't helped, and the third of patients

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<v Speaker 1>that aren't helped actually are about three or four times

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<v Speaker 1>more expensive two or three depends on the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>where where you're doing the data. UM. Then patients who

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<v Speaker 1>are helped by these medicines UM. And so we have

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<v Speaker 1>not only a very large group of patients who aren't helped,

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<v Speaker 1>but also those are the most expensive patients. And so

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<v Speaker 1>if we could make a difference in their lives, I

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<v Speaker 1>think there's a huge opportunity to really um develop a

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<v Speaker 1>new model of care for them. And this is what's

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<v Speaker 1>so interesting about what we're doing. It is a therapy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>It's a single dose under supervised circumstances, with preparation and

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<v Speaker 1>then some follow up afterwards. And what's really unique about

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<v Speaker 1>this So they did some really fascinating work at Johns

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<v Speaker 1>Hopkins where a lot of this research was reborn in

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<v Speaker 1>the over ten years ago, one of the questions they

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<v Speaker 1>asked patients who had gone through this, and they asked

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<v Speaker 1>this question six weeks after this experience. They said, how

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<v Speaker 1>meaningful would you say this experience was in your life?

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<v Speaker 1>Personally meaningful? And people were given, you know, the most meaningful,

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<v Speaker 1>the top five, you know, and so over seventy the

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<v Speaker 1>single experience was one of the top five most meaningful

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<v Speaker 1>experiences of their life. Right, So, you can't you can't

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<v Speaker 1>really put you can't. You can't, you can't write no, no, no.

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<v Speaker 1>And I wish you we were in person because you

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<v Speaker 1>could see me smiling, because you can't put a value

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<v Speaker 1>on it. And I have a sister who works in

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<v Speaker 1>this area, so I've kind of grown up learning about this,

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<v Speaker 1>and I agree that there's an unbelievable cost by not

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<v Speaker 1>you know, helping out this sector of our population. And

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<v Speaker 1>also it's invaluable in terms of they basically their lives back.

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<v Speaker 1>Having said that, you kind of evaded my answer. So

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<v Speaker 1>there was this like a multibillion dollar potential treatment or

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<v Speaker 1>tens of Yes, I think it is multi billion. Yeah, um,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know we've had so but again that's if

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<v Speaker 1>the trials were well, what's let's let's talk about that,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's a big deal. I mean, listen, we're all

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<v Speaker 1>learning about the drug process right because of the drug

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<v Speaker 1>approval process, because of COVID. What challenges does does the

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<v Speaker 1>US present, What regulatory hurdles still remain? And I do

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<v Speaker 1>wonder if you're following kind of the playbook from marijuana

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<v Speaker 1>kind of prescription first, recreational second, how are you thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about it? Not at all. Now we're really thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>the huge unmet needs there is for patients. Uh, And

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<v Speaker 1>that's you know, what we're really focused on is access,

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<v Speaker 1>and that means approval by medicaid, by you know, insurers.

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<v Speaker 1>So from day one, we've been really focusing on making

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<v Speaker 1>sure that if this in fact is successful in trials,

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<v Speaker 1>people have access to it. And that means working with

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<v Speaker 1>insurers even in the design of clinical trials to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure they have the evidence. Hey, this for this patient population.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's super important to us. It's a different model

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<v Speaker 1>than a recreational model. You're gonna have to come back

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<v Speaker 1>because I want to talk more. We still have a

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<v Speaker 1>few minutes, but I just want to squeeze in some things.

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<v Speaker 1>When when did you recognize the potential in this space?

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<v Speaker 1>Was it after your son or was it when you

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<v Speaker 1>started doing some digging, Like, what was the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>you just said? Kind of the aha moment, Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>aha moment was being awakened in February. Kacha and my wife,

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<v Speaker 1>who is busy doing medical research in her sleepless nights

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<v Speaker 1>as a doctor, and she said, I came across this

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<v Speaker 1>thing called philocybin um. It's the active ingredient and magic

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<v Speaker 1>mushrooms you can wear in the sixties and seventies. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you think of that? So say, what money finding this?

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, obviously I grown up in that time,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was familiar with these things, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>just a whole world that I had completely forgotten about

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<v Speaker 1>from that time. So listen, just got about forty five

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<v Speaker 1>seconds left here. Why synthetic um psilocybin? And I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>curious how you produce it? And just quickly yeah, sorry,

0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.760
<v Speaker 1>pay we need to it's a medicine, so we need

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<v Speaker 1>to know exactly what patients are receiving, what the doses.

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<v Speaker 1>It has to be the same quality every place on

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<v Speaker 1>the planet that it's given. So that's why you have

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<v Speaker 1>to use synthetic. It's the regulatory path forward. It's one

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<v Speaker 1>where we always know there are no impurities, that people

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<v Speaker 1>get exactly what it says on the tent and then

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<v Speaker 1>we can do controlled research. So it's super important that

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<v Speaker 1>in a medical setting we use synthesize pilotybe and that's

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<v Speaker 1>something that we've spent a lot of time developing and

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<v Speaker 1>working with the regulators on both sides of the Atlantic

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure it's the highest purity and genuinely a

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<v Speaker 1>medicine with evidence. We'll just then the difference between a

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<v Speaker 1>drug and and a medicine is evidence. And so we're

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<v Speaker 1>creating a atis in Frognis, which is psilocybin, a proprietary

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<v Speaker 1>form of right and then with the evidence of the works.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it, George, we have to go. Please come back.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love to learn more George Goldsmith and also listen

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<v Speaker 1>to more of the trial the trials George, of course

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<v Speaker 1>of Compass Pathways