WEBVTT - Greenwashing Genocide In Artsakh 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.920 Calls media. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.360 Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here today. 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.880 It's me James and I'm joined by Nevdon jam Gochian. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.880 We're here to talk about Azerbaijan, Armenia and the increasingly 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.639 genocidal rhetoric from Azerbaijan. But I want to start off nevdone. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.480 We're talking about COP twenty twenty four. I guess can 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.440 you explain I think people will be sort of somewhat 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.000 familiar with these series of climate conferences, but this one 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.000 was held in Azerbaijan, Right, and can you explain a 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:39.600 little bit about you've specialized in like these greenwashing, sports washing, 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.640 various other sort of forms of laundering legitimacy. Right, I'd 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.920 love for you to start off there and explain how 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.559 this particular conference was used as a means of laundering 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.599 legitimacy for what is it like a genocidal project. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:58.760 COP twenty nine, which was just concluded in Azerbaijan, is 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:04.840 the deadly series and vital conversation about climate in the 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.360 United Nations, which we absolutely need to have. But from 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:15.440 the beginning it was a clown show. And the way Azerbaijan, 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.400 a Petra dictatorship was able to proture this for themselves 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.360 was at COP twenty eight, which was held in Dubai, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.880 another questionable location for a climate conference, where they had 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.880 a pavilion, as reported by Political EU, where they had 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:38.480 a giant advertisement that said Carabach is the first place 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:43.959 to achieve net zero emissions in Azerbaijan, and that was 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.120 one part of them getting the bid for COP twenty nine. 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.600 And the way Zerbaijan was able to achieve net zero 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:57.200 emissions in this particular location was they committed a genocide 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.680 against all the people. If there's no people, there's no 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.840 climate emissions. And that's probably not even true that it's 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.440 a net zero emissions because they've engaged in so much 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.360 of the eradication of any trace of Armenians in this 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.040 place that Armenians been living in for at least two thousand, 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.280 five hundred years. Destruction of buildings, of course is one 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:26.520 of the huge source of pollution, and they've they've raised 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:31.520 something like four cemeteries, thousands of the monuments, four churches 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:37.000 have amolished, entire neighborhoods have been raised historical neighborhood So 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.079 it's probably not even that zero, but that was their 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.000 advertising claim. To get the bid. The top twenty nine 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.679 was originally supposed to be in Europe, but Russia was 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:53.200 vetoing every European bid, and Armenia, who Azerbaijan is currently 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.160 occupying two hundred and fifteen kilometers of Armenian territory, was 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.799 blocking Azerbaijan till Azerbaijan offered to give up thirty two 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:07.840 Armenian hostages. So we've got a clean side, and then 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.840 we've got a gangster hobstage situation, which they did. They 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.560 gave up thirty two members of the Armenian military, and 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.240 they made Armenia give up two other Bajigans that were 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.040 reheld by Armenia because they had gone into Armenia and 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.760 killed a local security guard trying to steal his car. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.160 They probably were lost and they killed this guy and 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.000 they were trying to escape, but then just one of 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.560 them had been sent to life imprisonment. But that's what 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.280 Armenia gave up in exchange. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.280 To allow this climate conference to happen. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:40.000 That's correct. 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.040 So let's stand back from this climate conference right like 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.080 in this I think it's a really interesting place to start. 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.240 The site of our genocide is a net zero area 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.320 and it's a very bleak vision of the sort of 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.160 greenwashing future. Let's expand a little bit of the history 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.960 of the conflict between these two countries and also prepp 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.040 more broadly. I think people will probably be familiar with 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.560 the Armenian genocide if they've listened to this show, but 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.520 of Armenian people as a subject of discrimination and hatred 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.320 for centuries. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.280 Right, well, you know, I mean, Armenians are one of 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.200 the ancient people of that area, Greeks, Jews, Persians, They're 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:20.599 one of the people that have kind of stuck it 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.200 out for a long time in that neighborhood. The Turkic 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:29.600 people are more recent visitors to the neighborhood. And there's 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:34.600 nothing wrong with migration of people, but there's something about 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.760 populations that have been there for a long time that 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.960 really strikes a nerve. If we want to be very 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.920 mild about it, with the Turkic people, Turkey and Azerbaijan 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.479 in the sense that they've been engaged in a policy 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:54.400 of destroying any remnants of Armenians, including physical people, for 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.120 least in eighteen eighties. They've been making them second class 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.479 citizens since they came in in the Ottoman Empire. There's 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.800 this myth of the a multicultural society, which is interesting 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.440 Azerbaijan is also trying to promote. But it really was 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:14.320 a second class situation where the minorities in the Ottoman 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.960 Empire had a lot of extra taxes and duties and 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.920 persecution than other people in the area. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.960 Yeah, so let's talk about this this area then, specifically 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.400 this area which would be called depending on who you asked, 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.200 art Zach or Nagna Krabac, Right, I think probably it did. 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.080 I don't know if I haven't looked on Wikipedia, but 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.000 like what would the more commonly used terms for people 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.720 wanting to look it up right in American English? 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.520 But let's explain why there. 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.920 Is a conflict in this area and then what has 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.120 happened since I guess we can go from like the 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.360 fall of the Soviet Union would be a place to start. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.560 Or I mean we talked about earlier. That's the tough 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.960 thing about talking to rannions, like where I would start 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.960 with the sixth century and the fall of the king 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.040 in Maratu. Okay, But I guess we don't have that 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.039 much time. So basically, and I do have to put 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.240 this in there because there's this big Azerbaijani narrative that 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.680 Armenians are effective people, they're effective presence, and I'll deal 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.240 with that in a little bit. Yeah, but you know, 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.400 it's just been recorded by Greek. I mean, I don't 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.320 know why I should have to prove our existence, but 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:22.480 we do. 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:23.400 Yeah. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.120 So anyway, if record to history that it's where the 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.360 Armedian alphabet was unvented. These people have been indigenous to 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.440 the region for thousands of years. They've got a deep 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.000 connection with the land fill. The Soviet unions fast forward 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.200 there it had been under the territory of the Azerbaijani SSR, 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.480 as in a autonomous oblast as they called it. It 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.680 had been given to the Azerbaijani SSR because of Stalin, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.960 who was the Commissioner of Minorities. Colin has this big 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.719 project to divide the people, the minorities in the Soviet 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.000 Union to fight each other, which is ramped up in 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.080 nineteen sixties when the Soviets start in ing fake history 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.440 to pit people against each other, which is wild, but 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:10.280 Soviet Union is crumbling. The people of Artsak, which is 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.760 the Armeni indigenous name Nagaro Karaba, is generally acceptable as well. 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.840 That's that would be the colonial name or the name 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.640 that the Azeris called the region. They are fed up 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.440 with not being able to learn their language because of Azerbaijan. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.600 They're fed up with not being able to have any 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.400 of the rights as Soviet citizens because the father of 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.480 the current dictator of Azerbaijan was ruining Azerbaijan since nineteen 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.200 sixty nine, and his policy was to try to get 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.800 as many Armenians to move out of the region as possible. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.480 So they're fed up with this and they're like, okay, enough, 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.640 they legally seceed from the Soviet Union. It's allowed in 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:54.000 the constitution, which of course infuriates that Azerbaijani SSR. You know. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.800 So there's a bunch of conflicts. There's the pogroms that 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.720 happen against Armenians and cities of Baku and Ungate, and 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.880 at which point they seceed fully from the Soviet Union, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.320 one of the first areas to do so. In nineteen 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.960 ninety one. They actually left the Soviet Union before Azerbaijan. 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.840 Azerbaijan with the Soviet Union's troops in Bay there's this 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.920 bloody mess it's called Operation Ring where they're killing Armenians 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:27.400 in the area. There's a war that erupts when everybody seceedes. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.680 Armenians in Artsak get the upper hand due to they 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.120 really cared about it and also probably because of racism 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:37.600 within the Soviet Union where they trained Armenians a little 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.600 bit better than they did Azeris. It's a humiliating defeat 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.440 for Azerbaijan. Azerbaijean is pushed back. Armenian sees about nine 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:51.040 percent of Azerbaijani territory beyond Artsak, and that was a 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.280 stasis until twenty twenty. 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.360 Yeah really yeah, sort of thirty years of right, but 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.520 it was always disputed right. This area was as we 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.120 don't continue to lay claim to the ad Tuk region. 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:03.760 Is that correct? 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:08.000 For some reason, it was never recognized by the UN 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.280 as being a real country, similar to some other places. 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.320 Why that is is confusing to me, because they did 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.440 leave earlier than anybody else. It is an ethnic minority 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.000 that chose to leave the area, but it was they 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:27.160 weren't considered legitimate by the UN. By Azerbaijan, and secondarily, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:34.320 we have this brutal dictatorship that's held together by ethnic hatred. Really, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:41.640 I cannot overstate how terrible the Alif regime is in Azerbaijan. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.520 But you know, Urmeni forces committed at least one war 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.240 crime that I'm aware of during that time in the 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.720 place go Kolzoli where they killed one hundred and eighty 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.560 to six hundred Azari civilians. And they've used this event 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.400 and I think one other, to really hold their country 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:02.040 together in this pit of broath of it think hatred. 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.960 So not until twenty twenty does that really call last 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.280 do they become strong as a petro state to take 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.440 back large portions of the country. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.439 Yeah, talking of taking back, I'm gonna have to take 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.240 back thirty seconds of everyone's time for an advertising break here, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.240 So let's do that and we'll come right back. 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:31.720 All right, we're back. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.120 One thing I think that it might be illustrative to 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:38.520 hear is that, like in the first Adzakh War, Turkish 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.600 I guess it regulars or mercenaries or and what you 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.120 want to call them, people associated with the gray Wolves 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:48.160 fought on the side of Azubijan. Right and keen history 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:52.200 understanders wonder that there is some history of anti Armenian 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.480 sentiment among the gray Wolves and then indeed in Turkey 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:56.480 as a country. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.000 So preps. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.800 This is a good point to talk about the international 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.760 involvement here, because I think it's very misleading to do this. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.079 As we're seeing in Syria right now, people want to 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.040 divide the world into blocks, right with like sort of 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.120 this sort of Cold War narrative that we have of 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.400 Russian interests in US interests, And I think this is 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.120 an excellent example of why that is not necessarily a 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.160 great way to perceive the world. So, can you explain 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.040 the international involvement in artsak and in this ongoing conflict 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.520 which we'll get to it beginning again in twenty twenty, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:30.680 I think in a second. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.320 In addition to Turkish forces being used in that twenty 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.120 twenty war, which I guess we'll have to get into 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.280 a little bit. Yeah, there, Syrian mercenaries were used as well. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.960 They were acuted, they were put on the front lines. 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.680 It's kind of candid fodder. They're given something like one 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.200 hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded a civilian, a two 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.760 hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded in Armenian soldier there. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.120 But of course Israel is the primary supplier of Azeri 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.320 weapons in weaponry on so far to test some of 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.400 their drones on manned Armenian outposts early on before the 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.679 war started. It's fair to say that Azerbaijan could not 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.720 have been so successful without the aid of their ally, Israel. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.839 Israel has been deeply involved in Azerbijan for a long time. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.640 They use Azerbaijan as a listening post against Iran. Israel 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.720 stages raids from Azerbaijan on Iran and has to do 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.560 with the ethnic minority in Iran. There's a lot of 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.000 Azari's down there. Israel get something like forty percent of 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:36.920 its oil from Azerbaijan. Right after the Palestinian genocide started, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:43.920 Israel awarded two contracts to the state oil company SOCAR 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.640 in Azerbaijan. It's right adjacent to the Palestinian gas field 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.920 and the Lebanon oil field to SOCAR to explore. It 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.840 cannot be overstated how complicit these two groups are with 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.319 each other. They really really need each other in the region. 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.960 In the United States also liked Azerbaijan as well. They 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.080 see it as a friendly Muslim country bulark against Iran 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:08.720 as well. 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.600 Yeah, I think they also have some Turkish drones. Is 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.360 that right the Bajakar y, Yes, absolutely, So let's talk 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.440 about that twenty twenty war, because that was a war 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.440 that relied heavily on these drones, right, some major means 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.800 of destroying Armenian armor and pushing that offensive. So what 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.160 happened in twenty twenty along this disputed border, Well, you. 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:35.000 Know, it's called mountainous Karaba. It's an area that's great 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.439 defensively if you're fighting in a pre drone world. Yeah, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:44.440 but you know, as you've discovered your Kurdish friends, the 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.760 drones are amazingly destructive against people hiding in caves, which 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.240 is what the Armenian response had been. Armenians had been 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.480 a bit lazy. They've been relying on Russian tanks and weaponry, 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.920 Whereazerbaijan's is buying from Israel, buying from all, you know, many, many, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.880 just different sources, which reflects the wealth of Azerbaijan, of course. 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:12.000 So in twenty twenty, there's some indication that Alif, the 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.280 dictator of Azebaijan, had been planning US for a while. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.000 He had this playbook called Operation Aszeri Smile twenty twenty. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:26.080 The troops move in, they encounter more resistance than they thought, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:31.080 and they get most of the Armenian held territory of 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.920 Nigardo Karaba back. They're stopped at the last minute, probably 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.800 by Russian intervention. At this time. The Armenia was a 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.040 member of the Russian Alliance at that time, which they're 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.400 leaving just because it's the Russia has failed to live 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.520 up to its treaty obligations anyway, and it left a 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.520 kind of a skeletal state of Artak left, which was 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.280 only supplied by this one road called the Latchin Corridor, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.720 that was only one road from Armenia to supply the 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.800 one hundred and twenty some thousand Armenians who lived in 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.320 Artzok left, which brings us to twenty twenty four, twenty three. 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.360 Twenty three or yeah. 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.640 So yeah, you have this situation where we now have 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:20.840 this massive area that's I guess occupied a lot of people. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.280 People began leaving at that time right through that latching Corridor, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.800 like people didn't feel like they could safely remain there. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.200 I mean, the indigenous people of art Sooc have this 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.440 profound relationship with the land and the people. I am 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.040 an icon painter, and I was talking to my priest 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:42.560 and he was comparing the people there to the elves 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.520 and the lord of the ring. You know, they whistle 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:46.400 to the birds. You know, they've just been living with 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.600 the land for a long time. So there was a drade, 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.600 but it's not as big as you would have fought, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.640 just because there's this intense millennia old connection with the 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:04.440 places of Artsock. So what Azerbaijohn did, and this is 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.960 I think unprecedented, is they had a fake ecological protest. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:14.160 Oh wow, that stopped the Lachin Corridor from supplying food 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:19.760 and medicine to the people of Artsac. So they starved 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.160 those people, They denied the medicine, people had miscarriages as 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.200 areas were firing at farmers in the field that were 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.040 trying to collect food. And that went on for nine months. 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.400 And what stopped what's oether by John claimed it was 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.000 a group of ecological protesters who were stopping trucks of 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.880 food coming into Artsack for any any reason, which you 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.360 know is enough of the smoke screen for the Western 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.600 world to really throw up its hands. 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:51.479 Yeah, fascinating. So they literally have a blockade of these protesters. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.480 These protesters are blocked it. There'sn't The Russian troops that 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.600 were the peace coopers refused to disperse these protesters. They 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.760 were these old appraching kind of looking people wearing fur coats. 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.639 They were identified on social media as actually being members 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.680 of the Zari military, and they had these printed signs 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:17.600 that said things like protect nature, stop pollutionsic wildly generic things. Ostensibly, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.040 they are against the gold mining operations in Artsk, which 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.920 is nuts because a protest is not allowed. And Azerbaijan 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.520 and THEI there had been an actual protest against a 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.679 real gold mine that was owned by the daughters of 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.960 the dictator and they were brutally shut down, you know before, 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.320 So anybody who was paying any kind of attention to 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.720 this knew that it was fictive. But I think the 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.280 EU in particular needing enough of the smoke screen not 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.719 to support these people. EU. Of course it's getting its 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.920 gas through Azerbaijan, Yeah, because they've said they don't want 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.560 it from Russia. But Russia's just feeding its gas to Azerbaijan, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.440 and then Azerbaijean is selling it's Azerbaijani gas to the EU. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.919 So they were just trying to do that. 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:02.320 Yeah, if we've just created a pass through and like 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.800 someone who can live off that rentier income, so let's 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.639 go to twenty twenty three. Okay, what do we see 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.800 happening in twenty twenty three. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.520 So the eco protesters they kind of run their course 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:21.760 and then there's a lightning operation art sucks attacked positions overrun. 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.439 There's this massive exodus of people, people who have to 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.920 leave their houses immediately. The road is blocked. People are 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.040 dying on this road on the way out, fighting each other, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.200 you know, just to leave their houses. In twenty twenty, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.240 Azerbaijan has said, sure, you know, our Meetians can come back. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.639 We're just taking back a territory. You live here, you 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.760 can do that. But when Armenians did, there's this one 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.760 case of a sixty nine year old farmer who went 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.000 back to get his possessions. Every troops cut off his 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.280 head Jesus. They put it on a dead pig, and 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:03.080 they put all those images on social media. They raped 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.320 and tortured anybody that they could find left behind, and 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.280 they turned it into memes on telegrams, stickers that were 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.560 you know, something like down like twenty thousand times in 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.359 the five days that were being monitored for this. So 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:21.040 there was absolutely no question that people could stay behind. Yeah. Zero, Yeah, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.640 So there's no Armenians left, and so there's literally been 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.480 daily ritual that's been going on for a thousand, seven 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:33.520 hundred years that doesn't go on anymore, and there's a 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:34.320 tragedy in that. 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.119 Yeah, yeah, it's been lost. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.560 Like yeah, it's hard to quantify the like you know 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:42.960 the meaning of that loss. I think, especially for folks 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.080 who aren't familiar with people and their culture and like 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.199 that connection to these things. Talking of quantifying things, I 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.000 need to look at the amount of time we got 0:19:53.000 --> 0:20:12.960 here and pivot again to advertisements. 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.360 And we're back. So what we see. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.479 In odds, especially in twenty twenty three, is a project 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:19.000 of ethnic cleansing, right, genocidal violence, whatever however you wish 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:20.879 to phrase it. I mean, ethnic cleansing is not a 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.479 term that has really like a definition in natural law. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.719 Genocide does often very much like in this incidence, I'm 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.760 using them to mean one and the same thing, the 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.880 removal of people, either through killing them or forcing them 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:34.120 to leave or starving them. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:39.520 The International Association Genocide Scholars the Lumpkin Institute. Luis Moreno 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:42.280 Campo is a founding prosecutor of the ICC. You on 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.359 Your RESTR. Mendez a special advisor to the second General 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:49.000 on genocide prevention. They all call it genocide, so we 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.240 can call it that, Yeah, we can call it really safe. Yeah, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:52.880 there have. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:54.879 Been many genocide of products in history. Like what is 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:00.200 as Abajan's goal with this? Is it the remove full 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.640 of Armenian people with the areas such as a repeople 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.840 can occupy it? Is it access to the resources that 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.840 are there? Is it settling a historical school? 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.239 If you look at a map, there's this idea of 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.640 pan Turanism. Is that something that's you're familiar with? 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.280 Yeah, can you explain that to listen to a not. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:26.600 Pan Turanism is this Turkish idea of an ancient Turkish 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.680 state that stretches from the Bosphorus all the way over 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:35.159 to Mongolia and there's one little country in the way 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:41.040 that is blocking this empire that should exist according to 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.360 the pan Tyrannism. And this is an old idea, it's 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.200 a nineteenth century idea. It's blumping in with every Nazi 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:51.600 and race junk scientist idea that you have. But that's 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.960 the idea. And the secondary thing is, you know, again, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.879 Aliaf is raving his people, he's in prison. Every journalist 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.240 is any scientists, it's it's really on a level with 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.120 truth Mingistan or what was happening in Syria or North Korea. 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.720 And he needs ethnic hate to keep his country together. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.760 He's made an ethnic hate theme park. It's not called that, 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:20.160 but that's what it is against Armenians. And so yeah, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.280 so really I see it as a consolidation of power. 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.920 He needs an enemy, he needs to move forward, which 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.159 is why he's threatening to invade Armenia proper. Next. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.760 Yeah, And like I think one of the things that 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.960 happened with the with the conflict in art Zak, I'm 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.760 just I'm thinking about this, this Panturkic stuff because I 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.480 see it every single day and their applies to my 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.440 post on social media. Right. In my case, it's a 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:49.840 reference to my time in Kurdistan and in Rishaba. Disinformation 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.560 played a massive role in the in the twenty twenty 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.320 three contract, in the twenty twenty conflict too, right, And 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:58.320 I think people who are hearing about this for the 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:02.239 first time are a massive risk for finding that some 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:02.920 of that differentormation. 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:03.119 Right. 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.040 They hear about this driving to work today on our 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:07.520 podcast and they go to google it. There's a lot 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.560 of crap out there, right, So, like, can we address 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:14.400 that the role that it's played and continues to play. 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:16.040 The load of crap, or the pan Turanism or both. 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.800 Well, the pan Turanism generates a lot of crap, right, 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.359 Like I'm convinced that some of the accounts in my 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:25.119 replies are not real human beings. 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.920 Oh yeah, that's been a well established phenomenon. The number 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:33.080 of bots that as of by genre to a lesser 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.680 except Turkey, because I think Turkey's more secure in its 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:42.240 genocidal aspect, whereas and it's really really going for it, 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.440 you know. So not only the bots in the replies 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:47.760 which has come up, no matter what you put in keyword, 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:50.960 there's going to be lots of mentions on your social media, 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.320 not to mention there's a pretty vicious campaign out there 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.000 to docks. Anybody who talks about this is that's happened 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.520 to me before and it's not pretty. But also there's 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.240 this thing called mirror propaganda. I don't know if you've 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.080 heard of that. But the Assaris will take something that 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.600 Armenians say like oh, our Armenians should go be able 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.359 to have a right to return, so they throub this 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.960 huge cloud of They'll take actual documents that have been 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.560 produced by I don't know, freedom House, right, yeah, and 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.680 then they'll copy the entire doc document and format things 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:31.080