1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Calls media. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here today. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 2: It's me James and I'm joined by Nevdon jam Gochian. 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: We're here to talk about Azerbaijan, Armenia and the increasingly 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 2: genocidal rhetoric from Azerbaijan. But I want to start off nevdone. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: We're talking about COP twenty twenty four. I guess can 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: you explain I think people will be sort of somewhat 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: familiar with these series of climate conferences, but this one 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 2: was held in Azerbaijan, Right, and can you explain a 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: little bit about you've specialized in like these greenwashing, sports washing, 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: various other sort of forms of laundering legitimacy. Right, I'd 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: love for you to start off there and explain how 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: this particular conference was used as a means of laundering 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 2: legitimacy for what is it like a genocidal project. 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: COP twenty nine, which was just concluded in Azerbaijan, is 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 3: the deadly series and vital conversation about climate in the 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: United Nations, which we absolutely need to have. But from 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 3: the beginning it was a clown show. And the way Azerbaijan, 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 3: a Petra dictatorship was able to proture this for themselves 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: was at COP twenty eight, which was held in Dubai, 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: another questionable location for a climate conference, where they had 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: a pavilion, as reported by Political EU, where they had 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 3: a giant advertisement that said Carabach is the first place 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: to achieve net zero emissions in Azerbaijan, and that was 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: one part of them getting the bid for COP twenty nine. 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: And the way Zerbaijan was able to achieve net zero 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: emissions in this particular location was they committed a genocide 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: against all the people. If there's no people, there's no 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 3: climate emissions. And that's probably not even true that it's 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: a net zero emissions because they've engaged in so much 31 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: of the eradication of any trace of Armenians in this 32 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: place that Armenians been living in for at least two thousand, 33 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: five hundred years. Destruction of buildings, of course is one 34 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: of the huge source of pollution, and they've they've raised 35 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 3: something like four cemeteries, thousands of the monuments, four churches 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: have amolished, entire neighborhoods have been raised historical neighborhood So 37 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 3: it's probably not even that zero, but that was their 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 3: advertising claim. To get the bid. The top twenty nine 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 3: was originally supposed to be in Europe, but Russia was 40 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: vetoing every European bid, and Armenia, who Azerbaijan is currently 41 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: occupying two hundred and fifteen kilometers of Armenian territory, was 42 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 3: blocking Azerbaijan till Azerbaijan offered to give up thirty two 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: Armenian hostages. So we've got a clean side, and then 44 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 3: we've got a gangster hobstage situation, which they did. They 45 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: gave up thirty two members of the Armenian military, and 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: they made Armenia give up two other Bajigans that were 47 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: reheld by Armenia because they had gone into Armenia and 48 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 3: killed a local security guard trying to steal his car. 49 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: They probably were lost and they killed this guy and 50 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: they were trying to escape, but then just one of 51 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: them had been sent to life imprisonment. But that's what 52 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 3: Armenia gave up in exchange. 53 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: To allow this climate conference to happen. 54 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: That's correct. 55 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: So let's stand back from this climate conference right like 56 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: in this I think it's a really interesting place to start. 57 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: The site of our genocide is a net zero area 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: and it's a very bleak vision of the sort of 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: greenwashing future. Let's expand a little bit of the history 60 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: of the conflict between these two countries and also prepp 61 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: more broadly. I think people will probably be familiar with 62 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: the Armenian genocide if they've listened to this show, but 63 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: of Armenian people as a subject of discrimination and hatred 64 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: for centuries. 65 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: Right, well, you know, I mean, Armenians are one of 66 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: the ancient people of that area, Greeks, Jews, Persians, They're 67 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: one of the people that have kind of stuck it 68 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: out for a long time in that neighborhood. The Turkic 69 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 3: people are more recent visitors to the neighborhood. And there's 70 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: nothing wrong with migration of people, but there's something about 71 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: populations that have been there for a long time that 72 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: really strikes a nerve. If we want to be very 73 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: mild about it, with the Turkic people, Turkey and Azerbaijan 74 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 3: in the sense that they've been engaged in a policy 75 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: of destroying any remnants of Armenians, including physical people, for 76 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: least in eighteen eighties. They've been making them second class 77 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 3: citizens since they came in in the Ottoman Empire. There's 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: this myth of the a multicultural society, which is interesting 79 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: Azerbaijan is also trying to promote. But it really was 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: a second class situation where the minorities in the Ottoman 81 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 3: Empire had a lot of extra taxes and duties and 82 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 3: persecution than other people in the area. 83 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about this this area then, specifically 84 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: this area which would be called depending on who you asked, 85 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: art Zach or Nagna Krabac, Right, I think probably it did. 86 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: I don't know if I haven't looked on Wikipedia, but 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: like what would the more commonly used terms for people 88 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 2: wanting to look it up right in American English? 89 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 4: But let's explain why there. 90 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 2: Is a conflict in this area and then what has 91 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: happened since I guess we can go from like the 92 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: fall of the Soviet Union would be a place to start. 93 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: Or I mean we talked about earlier. That's the tough 94 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: thing about talking to rannions, like where I would start 95 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: with the sixth century and the fall of the king 96 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 3: in Maratu. Okay, But I guess we don't have that 97 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 3: much time. So basically, and I do have to put 98 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: this in there because there's this big Azerbaijani narrative that 99 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: Armenians are effective people, they're effective presence, and I'll deal 100 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: with that in a little bit. Yeah, but you know, 101 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: it's just been recorded by Greek. I mean, I don't 102 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: know why I should have to prove our existence, but 103 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: we do. 104 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 105 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 3: So anyway, if record to history that it's where the 106 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 3: Armedian alphabet was unvented. These people have been indigenous to 107 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: the region for thousands of years. They've got a deep 108 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: connection with the land fill. The Soviet unions fast forward 109 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: there it had been under the territory of the Azerbaijani SSR, 110 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 3: as in a autonomous oblast as they called it. It 111 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 3: had been given to the Azerbaijani SSR because of Stalin, 112 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: who was the Commissioner of Minorities. Colin has this big 113 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 3: project to divide the people, the minorities in the Soviet 114 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 3: Union to fight each other, which is ramped up in 115 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: nineteen sixties when the Soviets start in ing fake history 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 3: to pit people against each other, which is wild, but 117 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: Soviet Union is crumbling. The people of Artsak, which is 118 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: the Armeni indigenous name Nagaro Karaba, is generally acceptable as well. 119 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: That's that would be the colonial name or the name 120 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: that the Azeris called the region. They are fed up 121 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: with not being able to learn their language because of Azerbaijan. 122 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: They're fed up with not being able to have any 123 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: of the rights as Soviet citizens because the father of 124 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: the current dictator of Azerbaijan was ruining Azerbaijan since nineteen 125 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: sixty nine, and his policy was to try to get 126 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: as many Armenians to move out of the region as possible. 127 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: So they're fed up with this and they're like, okay, enough, 128 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: they legally seceed from the Soviet Union. It's allowed in 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: the constitution, which of course infuriates that Azerbaijani SSR. You know. 130 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: So there's a bunch of conflicts. There's the pogroms that 131 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: happen against Armenians and cities of Baku and Ungate, and 132 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: at which point they seceed fully from the Soviet Union, 133 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: one of the first areas to do so. In nineteen 134 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: ninety one. They actually left the Soviet Union before Azerbaijan. 135 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: Azerbaijan with the Soviet Union's troops in Bay there's this 136 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: bloody mess it's called Operation Ring where they're killing Armenians 137 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: in the area. There's a war that erupts when everybody seceedes. 138 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: Armenians in Artsak get the upper hand due to they 139 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: really cared about it and also probably because of racism 140 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: within the Soviet Union where they trained Armenians a little 141 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 3: bit better than they did Azeris. It's a humiliating defeat 142 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: for Azerbaijan. Azerbaijean is pushed back. Armenian sees about nine 143 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 3: percent of Azerbaijani territory beyond Artsak, and that was a 144 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 3: stasis until twenty twenty. 145 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah really yeah, sort of thirty years of right, but 146 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: it was always disputed right. This area was as we 147 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: don't continue to lay claim to the ad Tuk region. 148 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: Is that correct? 149 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: For some reason, it was never recognized by the UN 150 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: as being a real country, similar to some other places. 151 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: Why that is is confusing to me, because they did 152 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: leave earlier than anybody else. It is an ethnic minority 153 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: that chose to leave the area, but it was they 154 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: weren't considered legitimate by the UN. By Azerbaijan, and secondarily, 155 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 3: we have this brutal dictatorship that's held together by ethnic hatred. Really, 156 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: I cannot overstate how terrible the Alif regime is in Azerbaijan. 157 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: But you know, Urmeni forces committed at least one war 158 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: crime that I'm aware of during that time in the 159 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: place go Kolzoli where they killed one hundred and eighty 160 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 3: to six hundred Azari civilians. And they've used this event 161 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: and I think one other, to really hold their country 162 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: together in this pit of broath of it think hatred. 163 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: So not until twenty twenty does that really call last 164 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 3: do they become strong as a petro state to take 165 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 3: back large portions of the country. 166 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, talking of taking back, I'm gonna have to take 167 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: back thirty seconds of everyone's time for an advertising break here, 168 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: So let's do that and we'll come right back. 169 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 4: All right, we're back. 170 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: One thing I think that it might be illustrative to 171 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: hear is that, like in the first Adzakh War, Turkish 172 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: I guess it regulars or mercenaries or and what you 173 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: want to call them, people associated with the gray Wolves 174 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: fought on the side of Azubijan. Right and keen history 175 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: understanders wonder that there is some history of anti Armenian 176 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: sentiment among the gray Wolves and then indeed in Turkey 177 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: as a country. 178 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 4: So preps. 179 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: This is a good point to talk about the international 180 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: involvement here, because I think it's very misleading to do this. 181 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: As we're seeing in Syria right now, people want to 182 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: divide the world into blocks, right with like sort of 183 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: this sort of Cold War narrative that we have of 184 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: Russian interests in US interests, And I think this is 185 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: an excellent example of why that is not necessarily a 186 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: great way to perceive the world. So, can you explain 187 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: the international involvement in artsak and in this ongoing conflict 188 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: which we'll get to it beginning again in twenty twenty, 189 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: I think in a second. 190 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 3: In addition to Turkish forces being used in that twenty 191 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: twenty war, which I guess we'll have to get into 192 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: a little bit. Yeah, there, Syrian mercenaries were used as well. 193 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 3: They were acuted, they were put on the front lines. 194 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: It's kind of candid fodder. They're given something like one 195 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded a civilian, a two 196 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded in Armenian soldier there. 197 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 3: But of course Israel is the primary supplier of Azeri 198 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 3: weapons in weaponry on so far to test some of 199 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: their drones on manned Armenian outposts early on before the 200 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 3: war started. It's fair to say that Azerbaijan could not 201 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 3: have been so successful without the aid of their ally, Israel. 202 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 3: Israel has been deeply involved in Azerbijan for a long time. 203 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: They use Azerbaijan as a listening post against Iran. Israel 204 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: stages raids from Azerbaijan on Iran and has to do 205 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: with the ethnic minority in Iran. There's a lot of 206 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: Azari's down there. Israel get something like forty percent of 207 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: its oil from Azerbaijan. Right after the Palestinian genocide started, 208 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: Israel awarded two contracts to the state oil company SOCAR 209 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 3: in Azerbaijan. It's right adjacent to the Palestinian gas field 210 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 3: and the Lebanon oil field to SOCAR to explore. It 211 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: cannot be overstated how complicit these two groups are with 212 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: each other. They really really need each other in the region. 213 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 3: In the United States also liked Azerbaijan as well. They 214 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 3: see it as a friendly Muslim country bulark against Iran 215 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: as well. 216 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they also have some Turkish drones. Is 217 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: that right the Bajakar y, Yes, absolutely, So let's talk 218 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: about that twenty twenty war, because that was a war 219 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: that relied heavily on these drones, right, some major means 220 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: of destroying Armenian armor and pushing that offensive. So what 221 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: happened in twenty twenty along this disputed border, Well, you. 222 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: Know, it's called mountainous Karaba. It's an area that's great 223 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 3: defensively if you're fighting in a pre drone world. Yeah, 224 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 3: but you know, as you've discovered your Kurdish friends, the 225 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 3: drones are amazingly destructive against people hiding in caves, which 226 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 3: is what the Armenian response had been. Armenians had been 227 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: a bit lazy. They've been relying on Russian tanks and weaponry, 228 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: Whereazerbaijan's is buying from Israel, buying from all, you know, many, many, 229 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 3: just different sources, which reflects the wealth of Azerbaijan, of course. 230 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: So in twenty twenty, there's some indication that Alif, the 231 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: dictator of Azebaijan, had been planning US for a while. 232 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: He had this playbook called Operation Aszeri Smile twenty twenty. 233 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: The troops move in, they encounter more resistance than they thought, 234 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: and they get most of the Armenian held territory of 235 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: Nigardo Karaba back. They're stopped at the last minute, probably 236 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: by Russian intervention. At this time. The Armenia was a 237 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: member of the Russian Alliance at that time, which they're 238 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: leaving just because it's the Russia has failed to live 239 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: up to its treaty obligations anyway, and it left a 240 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: kind of a skeletal state of Artak left, which was 241 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: only supplied by this one road called the Latchin Corridor, 242 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: that was only one road from Armenia to supply the 243 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty some thousand Armenians who lived in 244 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: Artzok left, which brings us to twenty twenty four, twenty three. 245 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 4: Twenty three or yeah. 246 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: So yeah, you have this situation where we now have 247 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: this massive area that's I guess occupied a lot of people. 248 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: People began leaving at that time right through that latching Corridor, 249 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: like people didn't feel like they could safely remain there. 250 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: I mean, the indigenous people of art Sooc have this 251 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 3: profound relationship with the land and the people. I am 252 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: an icon painter, and I was talking to my priest 253 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: and he was comparing the people there to the elves 254 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 3: and the lord of the ring. You know, they whistle 255 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: to the birds. You know, they've just been living with 256 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 3: the land for a long time. So there was a drade, 257 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 3: but it's not as big as you would have fought, 258 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 3: just because there's this intense millennia old connection with the 259 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: places of Artsock. So what Azerbaijohn did, and this is 260 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: I think unprecedented, is they had a fake ecological protest. 261 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: Oh wow, that stopped the Lachin Corridor from supplying food 262 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 3: and medicine to the people of Artsac. So they starved 263 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: those people, They denied the medicine, people had miscarriages as 264 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: areas were firing at farmers in the field that were 265 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: trying to collect food. And that went on for nine months. 266 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 3: And what stopped what's oether by John claimed it was 267 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: a group of ecological protesters who were stopping trucks of 268 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: food coming into Artsack for any any reason, which you 269 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: know is enough of the smoke screen for the Western 270 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: world to really throw up its hands. 271 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, fascinating. So they literally have a blockade of these protesters. 272 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: These protesters are blocked it. There'sn't The Russian troops that 273 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: were the peace coopers refused to disperse these protesters. They 274 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 3: were these old appraching kind of looking people wearing fur coats. 275 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 3: They were identified on social media as actually being members 276 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: of the Zari military, and they had these printed signs 277 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: that said things like protect nature, stop pollutionsic wildly generic things. Ostensibly, 278 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 3: they are against the gold mining operations in Artsk, which 279 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 3: is nuts because a protest is not allowed. And Azerbaijan 280 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: and THEI there had been an actual protest against a 281 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 3: real gold mine that was owned by the daughters of 282 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 3: the dictator and they were brutally shut down, you know before, 283 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: So anybody who was paying any kind of attention to 284 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: this knew that it was fictive. But I think the 285 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: EU in particular needing enough of the smoke screen not 286 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 3: to support these people. EU. Of course it's getting its 287 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: gas through Azerbaijan, Yeah, because they've said they don't want 288 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: it from Russia. But Russia's just feeding its gas to Azerbaijan, 289 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: and then Azerbaijean is selling it's Azerbaijani gas to the EU. 290 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: So they were just trying to do that. 291 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, if we've just created a pass through and like 292 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: someone who can live off that rentier income, so let's 293 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: go to twenty twenty three. Okay, what do we see 294 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: happening in twenty twenty three. 295 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: So the eco protesters they kind of run their course 296 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: and then there's a lightning operation art sucks attacked positions overrun. 297 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 3: There's this massive exodus of people, people who have to 298 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: leave their houses immediately. The road is blocked. People are 299 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 3: dying on this road on the way out, fighting each other, 300 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: you know, just to leave their houses. In twenty twenty, 301 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: Azerbaijan has said, sure, you know, our Meetians can come back. 302 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: We're just taking back a territory. You live here, you 303 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: can do that. But when Armenians did, there's this one 304 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: case of a sixty nine year old farmer who went 305 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 3: back to get his possessions. Every troops cut off his 306 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: head Jesus. They put it on a dead pig, and 307 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: they put all those images on social media. They raped 308 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: and tortured anybody that they could find left behind, and 309 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: they turned it into memes on telegrams, stickers that were 310 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: you know, something like down like twenty thousand times in 311 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: the five days that were being monitored for this. So 312 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: there was absolutely no question that people could stay behind. Yeah. Zero, Yeah, 313 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 3: So there's no Armenians left, and so there's literally been 314 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: daily ritual that's been going on for a thousand, seven 315 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: hundred years that doesn't go on anymore, and there's a 316 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: tragedy in that. 317 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's been lost. 318 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's hard to quantify the like you know 319 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: the meaning of that loss. I think, especially for folks 320 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: who aren't familiar with people and their culture and like 321 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 2: that connection to these things. Talking of quantifying things, I 322 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: need to look at the amount of time we got 323 00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: here and pivot again to advertisements. 324 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 4: And we're back. So what we see. 325 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 2: In odds, especially in twenty twenty three, is a project 326 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: of ethnic cleansing, right, genocidal violence, whatever however you wish 327 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: to phrase it. I mean, ethnic cleansing is not a 328 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 2: term that has really like a definition in natural law. 329 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 2: Genocide does often very much like in this incidence, I'm 330 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: using them to mean one and the same thing, the 331 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: removal of people, either through killing them or forcing them 332 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 2: to leave or starving them. 333 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: The International Association Genocide Scholars the Lumpkin Institute. Luis Moreno 334 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: Campo is a founding prosecutor of the ICC. You on 335 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: Your RESTR. Mendez a special advisor to the second General 336 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: on genocide prevention. They all call it genocide, so we 337 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 3: can call it that, Yeah, we can call it really safe. Yeah, 338 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: there have. 339 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: Been many genocide of products in history. Like what is 340 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: as Abajan's goal with this? Is it the remove full 341 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: of Armenian people with the areas such as a repeople 342 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: can occupy it? Is it access to the resources that 343 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: are there? Is it settling a historical school? 344 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 3: If you look at a map, there's this idea of 345 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 3: pan Turanism. Is that something that's you're familiar with? 346 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, can you explain that to listen to a not. 347 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: Pan Turanism is this Turkish idea of an ancient Turkish 348 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 3: state that stretches from the Bosphorus all the way over 349 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: to Mongolia and there's one little country in the way 350 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: that is blocking this empire that should exist according to 351 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 3: the pan Tyrannism. And this is an old idea, it's 352 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 3: a nineteenth century idea. It's blumping in with every Nazi 353 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 3: and race junk scientist idea that you have. But that's 354 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 3: the idea. And the secondary thing is, you know, again, 355 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 3: Aliaf is raving his people, he's in prison. Every journalist 356 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: is any scientists, it's it's really on a level with 357 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 3: truth Mingistan or what was happening in Syria or North Korea. 358 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: And he needs ethnic hate to keep his country together. 359 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 3: He's made an ethnic hate theme park. It's not called that, 360 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 3: but that's what it is against Armenians. And so yeah, 361 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: so really I see it as a consolidation of power. 362 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 3: He needs an enemy, he needs to move forward, which 363 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 3: is why he's threatening to invade Armenia proper. Next. 364 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I think one of the things that 365 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: happened with the with the conflict in art Zak, I'm 366 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: just I'm thinking about this, this Panturkic stuff because I 367 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: see it every single day and their applies to my 368 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 2: post on social media. Right. In my case, it's a 369 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: reference to my time in Kurdistan and in Rishaba. Disinformation 370 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 2: played a massive role in the in the twenty twenty 371 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: three contract, in the twenty twenty conflict too, right, And 372 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: I think people who are hearing about this for the 373 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,239 Speaker 2: first time are a massive risk for finding that some 374 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 2: of that differentormation. 375 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 3: Right. 376 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: They hear about this driving to work today on our 377 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: podcast and they go to google it. There's a lot 378 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: of crap out there, right, So, like, can we address 379 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 2: that the role that it's played and continues to play. 380 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 3: The load of crap, or the pan Turanism or both. 381 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: Well, the pan Turanism generates a lot of crap, right, 382 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: Like I'm convinced that some of the accounts in my 383 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 2: replies are not real human beings. 384 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's been a well established phenomenon. The number 385 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 3: of bots that as of by genre to a lesser 386 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 3: except Turkey, because I think Turkey's more secure in its 387 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: genocidal aspect, whereas and it's really really going for it, 388 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 3: you know. So not only the bots in the replies 389 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: which has come up, no matter what you put in keyword, 390 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 3: there's going to be lots of mentions on your social media, 391 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: not to mention there's a pretty vicious campaign out there 392 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 3: to docks. Anybody who talks about this is that's happened 393 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 3: to me before and it's not pretty. But also there's 394 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: this thing called mirror propaganda. I don't know if you've 395 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 3: heard of that. But the Assaris will take something that 396 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 3: Armenians say like oh, our Armenians should go be able 397 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 3: to have a right to return, so they throub this 398 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: huge cloud of They'll take actual documents that have been 399 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: produced by I don't know, freedom House, right, yeah, and 400 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: then they'll copy the entire doc document and format things 401 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: the right of Azaris to return to Western Azerbaijan, which 402 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: is their new concept, and Western Ivverdjan is the country 403 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: of Armenia. So they have these maps where they renamed 404 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: all the towns of Armenia with Assari names. They claim 405 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 3: Armenians only came to the region in eighteen twenty eight 406 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 3: with the Russians, that they are fake people. Another tragedy 407 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: of Artsak is they're taking these monasteries and places, not 408 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 3: only destroying them but chiseling off ancient inscriptions to prove 409 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: that Armenians didn't exist there. They've already done this in 410 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 3: this other place called Natchivan, which is they call it 411 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: the largest cultural genocide of the twenty first century, where 412 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 3: they destroyed thousands of medieval monuments and stones with bull 413 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: josers and sledgehammers. So they're just wiping them out, any 414 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: record of our medium anything in their claiming Armenia it 415 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 3: is really should be called Western Azerbaijan. And anytime Armenians 416 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: talk about arts that going back, they're like, well, we 417 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 3: they've made cookbooks, they've got a television show How Western 418 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: as the Baisan, and it's just it's what you're laughing, 419 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: and I laugh too, but it's it's so ugly, so scary, 420 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 3: but it's funny too. 421 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, what if these things are intil it's your grandma 422 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: or have you been beheaded? Like yes, it does seem 423 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: it does seem obscene, and it's so obscene that it's funny. Right, 424 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: But like this is a concerted state project, right that, 425 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: like it's easy to get caught up in. And it's 426 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: easy to get caught in this disinformation machine, not just 427 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: from like like like a bot in your replies, but 428 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 2: from news like you say, news outlets or a doctored 429 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: reports or things that look very convincing. 430 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 3: Search results that go to the top. I mean, you know, 431 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: on this course started with the writing and genocide which 432 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 3: ors Turkey and Azebaijan and Pakistan for some reason, say 433 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: it was fake. If you search for that, the top 434 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 3: results are gonna be our means are lying they committed 435 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: to genocide with us, And then they'll throw these numbers 436 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: like oh yeah, Armenian's killed three million Turks, Like what 437 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 3: are you talking about? These? It's just like like words 438 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 3: have meaning, you. 439 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 4: Know, but increasingly less and less, less and less. 440 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 3: You know, there's that great Hannah Art line about constant 441 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 3: lying is not aimed at making people believe a lie, 442 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: but ensuring that no one believes anything anymore, and that's 443 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: what they want. We're an obscure part of the world. 444 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 3: This will say a bunch of shit and people throw 445 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: up their hands and walk away. 446 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh it's too complicated, and so they. 447 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 3: Too complicated, right, yeah, Or you know, they'll say, oh, 448 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: it's ancient hatreds, and like that's bullshit. It's not ancient hatreds. 449 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 3: It's a very modern thing. These are real people who 450 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 3: have real understand all issues, you know, like in Gaza, 451 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 3: it's like it's very clear, Yeah, what's going on? 452 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. 453 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 2: The different areas that it has received a lot more 454 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 2: coverage and long body attention. 455 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 4: So where does this leave us now? 456 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 2: Right, as ab Giant has just hosted this conference, and 457 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: like it's important to recognize that this conference is it's 458 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 2: a project of kind of global liberalism, right to the 459 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: cop conference, and like it conveys legitimacy, and in this case, 460 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: it's a means of kind of laundering legitimacy. Right for 461 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 2: this Carabuck project in their case right through through the 462 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: lens of protecting the planet. 463 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 4: Where do they go from there? 464 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 3: Well, So what makes the dictatorship as a down a 465 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 3: little bit different from these other dictatorships I mentioned is 466 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: I think they care about what people think a little bit. 467 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 3: They bring in f one racing, the Eurovision. They really 468 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: do these projects because they want to be seen as 469 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 3: a legitimate state, whereas I think those others like North Korea, 470 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 3: they don't do that, like, no one's gonna like us 471 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 3: no matter what we do. They want to play on 472 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 3: the international stage. So that's one aspect. Another aspect, it 473 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 3: legitimizes themselves to their internal critics. People as their Bajana 474 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 3: smart they know what's going on, but they say, oh, 475 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 3: the world is coming to us. The world accepts us. 476 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 3: They must, you know, accept the brutal dictatorship that's cracking 477 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: down anybody's gay, lesbian, anything, you know. Orture is a 478 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 3: feature of this regime. So it legitimizes themselves internally, and 479 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: what they fear I guess is people were getting angry 480 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 3: that they invade Armenia. So it's just I think it's 481 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: that chene. Now we could argue whether that was effective 482 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: because COP twenty nine was an absolute train wreck for them. 483 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: But I'm not sure that matters to them right, matters 484 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 3: for the environment. 485 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think probably these COP conferences are not going 486 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: to be the way we solve our our issues with 487 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: climate change. But that's another conversation going forward, Like what 488 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: is the status of odds? What can those people, those 489 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: people who were able to leave, Like what does the 490 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: future hold for them? Are they sort of refugees in media? 491 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: Now? There are refugees in are Armenia. Amenia is a 492 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: poor state, doesn't have the oil reserves. The Azerbaijan just 493 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 3: announced that they're increased their military budget by twenty percent. Jesus, 494 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 3: it was already incredibly high. Last time I got statistics, 495 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: the flights from of Dah, which is the Israeli military 496 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 3: insulation for flying equipment to Azerbaijan, has ramped up. It's 497 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: higher than it was in twenty twenty before their invasion. 498 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 3: It's not a part for twenty twenty three. So that's 499 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 3: a pretty clear sign that they're getting all their equipment 500 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: from Israel. They stopped before copp and so I haven't 501 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 3: been able to get data on that since then. Azerbaijan 502 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: just issued a declaration that parents cannot visit their children 503 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 3: in the military, and that's a bad, bad sign. So 504 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 3: the question is not if it's win, it is winter. 505 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: I mean, he has a lot of mountains. Those are 506 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: pretty good defend. People are figured out. Sure, you've talked 507 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: to your friends of our Java. They figured out drones 508 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 3: a little bit, how to deal with them better. I 509 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 3: mean he has reached out to France, who's been helping 510 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 3: them a little bit. Azerbaijan says, there's some conditions for 511 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: peace that are insane, you know, like change your constitution 512 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: is one. Get rid of all EU observers is another. 513 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 3: Don't get any new weapons, and then give us the 514 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: what's called this Zeger Corridor, which is like this road 515 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: that goes to their exclave Nacheban to the to the 516 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 3: west there, and it's just like you can't stay. No 517 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: country is going to do that. Oh and they've got 518 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 3: another claim, which is they say allow the UNESCO to 519 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 3: visit Armenia to check out erased Azerbaijani sites, which is 520 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 3: just a mirror propacanda insanity because unesca's already in our 521 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 3: media and Armenia asked that of UNESCO for Azerbaijan. 522 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: But yeah, of course they just copy that right and say, well, 523 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: why do you do it? 524 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, which you know is not a real thing, 525 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 3: but anyway, so those are a conditions piece. So it 526 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: seems probable that Azerbaijan will invade, possibly in spring because 527 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 3: the snow will melt it away. Possibly now, because Alia 528 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: seems like he's very angry that the world kind of 529 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: paid attention to Cop twenty nine is figuring out that 530 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 3: he's a dick, and he's ramped up in arrest in 531 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 3: his own country. He does arrest an entire television station 532 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: of people that were you can't it's it's one of 533 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: the least press free countries on Earth. But I guess 534 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 3: people are doing something before or that, and they'll either 535 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 3: take the southern half of Armenia or they'll take all 536 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 3: of it, because they say Yerevan, the capital of Armenians, 537 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 3: is historically part of Azerbaijan. So that's the state where 538 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 3: we're at there, And I really think any other perspectives 539 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 3: are wishful thinking, and I'm Sartaly so grim about that, 540 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 3: but it's I think it's a very real possibility that 541 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: there's Armenian genocide that it's killed literally, you know, caluntable 542 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,239 Speaker 3: millions of Armenians since the eighteen nineties and ramped up 543 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: through nineteen fifteen through nineteen twenty three, and then Society 544 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 3: a little bit is ongoing and their project will be 545 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: completed in the next year. 546 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty bleak. 547 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: How can people they want to be in solid director 548 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: if they want to support I think this is something 549 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: that doesn't get reported on right in the US, even 550 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: though they just want to learn more. How can they 551 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 2: do that? Where can they go? 552 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 3: There's a good side has learned for art SoC that's 553 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: a good site. There's a bunch of Armenian web sites 554 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,479 Speaker 3: that people can go to. May I post some some 555 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: links on the show notes? Would that be? That'd be good? 556 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, well absolutely Betters in the show notes. 557 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would be very happy to do that 558 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 3: if people want to donate things. But it's similar to 559 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: to Gaza or other places, like what what does awareness do? 560 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 3: I guess it could slow things down. Yeah, but really 561 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 3: we just need state actors to respond to this. Our 562 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 3: meetings get very cynically used in France and in the 563 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 3: United States by right wing politicians who claim that they're 564 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: protecting Christians, but I don't think that's something that will 565 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 3: actually happen. 566 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people did the same thing for a 567 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: sad right that he protected Christians in Syria while he yeah, 568 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: murdered to gas his own people. 569 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: Exactly. 570 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 4: That's a best of cynical thing and a worst justicy. 571 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 3: I mean, what have you seen that's effective in terms 572 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 3: of world action or these things with Kurds or other people? 573 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: I mean, look when we talk about how the Kurds 574 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: have defended themselves from get a state project to eliminate them, 575 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 2: right in some areas, they haven't been able to write, 576 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: and when they have it's through their own armed initiative 577 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 2: for the most part, right, they were very fortunate to 578 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: have the support of the United States. But that was 579 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: only ever in the battle against Isis. It wasn't when 580 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: genocidal violence, right, this genocidal project in a free and 581 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: where we're seeing it right now, in power of fact, 582 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: the US didn't stand beside them there, and it's not 583 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: in its nature too. And I think this is a 584 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 2: really difficult situation that we find ourselves in all around 585 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 2: the world right now. Right, we've seen this in Africa too, right, 586 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: it's not really in the nature of the United States, 587 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: not in this century, to intervene simply for human rights reasons, 588 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: simply because because genocide is wrong. 589 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 3: We had a person that Sam had the power, who 590 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 3: wrote a book on how genocide is wrong and we 591 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 3: should intervene. And then what happens when she's in power 592 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: with Obama and Biden. 593 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: We draw red lines and then less sad walk over them, 594 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 2: like it happens all over the world. And I think, yeah, 595 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: we're probably in a post hedge and monic era, but 596 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that people deserve to die because we're 597 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 2: in a post hedgemonic era. 598 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: I know. 599 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: Look, if I look at the other genocide, which I've 600 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 2: spent more time with than most genocides, the weird thing 601 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: to say, it's the genocide in Meammar of the Rahine 602 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 2: of people. They are still facing genocidal violence now, even 603 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 2: from anti hunter groups. But I also see Muslim people 604 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 2: in the current National Liberation Army. I see them fighting 605 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: with the k and d F And the way that 606 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: those people liberated themselves was like from the bottom up, 607 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 2: and I think that, like I find some home, and 608 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 2: what's happening in Kurdistan and what's happening in me, amma, 609 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 2: And I don't see very much from the community of states, 610 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: so much of the thing that even fucking exists. I 611 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: don't really believe that states have a conscience. And yes, 612 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 2: I don't think it's in their nature to care about people, 613 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 2: because people are inherently valuable. But I do think people do, 614 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: and I do think it is in the nature of 615 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 2: people to care. So I guess we have to continue 616 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: to hope. 617 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 3: And there has been some positive statements by your Java 618 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 3: regarding our Medians, and there's a lot of solidarity there, 619 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 3: which it was great. You know, Kurt's helped commit the 620 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 3: first Armenian genocide and they've apologized, and so I'm seeing 621 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: a little glimmers of hope in terms of the solidarity 622 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 3: of people who see what's right and wrong who aren't 623 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 3: state actors. That's absolutely right. 624 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the things people, there's another thing that 625 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 2: will be deployed very often. The Kurds are responsible for 626 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: the Armenian genocide. Court if people were part of the 627 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: Armenian genocide, and they will acknowledge that, and they've tried 628 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: to make amends for it. 629 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly right, and that's all. 630 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, like we're here now, we're not is no to 631 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 2: our history, but we have to acknowledge it so that 632 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 2: we can move from it. 633 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing all of that. 634 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. 635 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: Is there anything else that we've failed to address? You 636 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 2: want to get in quickly before we I mean, yes, 637 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: thousands of years of stuff. 638 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 3: But you know, visit or Armenia. It's still called one 639 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 3: of the safest places on earth. Is it's been rated 640 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 3: safer than Japan. It's a beautiful place. It's a struggling democracy, 641 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 3: but it's the only democracy in the area. Try to 642 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 3: pay attention to the news, you know, is Hackeys. It 643 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 3: seems right, your senator, you know, like I just feel 644 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 3: wrong saying that, But what else can we do? Right? 645 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 3: If you're in Britain, the UK is an incredibly agregious 646 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 3: supporter of Azerbaijan through British petroleum. Really, you people probably 647 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 3: can have the biggest effect because the UK is the 648 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 3: biggest enabler of those dirt bags. And thank you for 649 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 3: the I really appreciate it. And I don't feel like 650 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 3: I've done justice to three thousand, five hundred years of history, 651 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 3: but thank you so much. 652 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 2: No, I think it's great. Is there any way people 653 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 2: can follow you online if they'd like to. 654 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely not. I'm tired of getting docs. 655 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: Excellent, Yes, pretty fit. 656 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 3: You know. That's why I pin icons. This is because 657 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 3: it's it's anonymous, you know. 658 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, very offline. 659 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, but thank you so much, great, thank you. 660 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 661 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 662 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 663 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts can now 664 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: find sources for it Could Happen Here, listed directly in 665 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.