1 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: I want to start with the trigger warning. We're going 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: to talk about the deaths of very young children and 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: it's upsetting. There's also discussion about suicide. But this is 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: an important story, so let's continue cautiously. 5 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: So, yep, this is love this one here, Yep, this 6 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 2: is the Lodwick Borden House. 7 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: We don't know who looks here. 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 2: I think it's a residential on the back, but up 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: front here I believe it's an attorney's office. 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Carrie Noulty, Ashley Belliro and I are back at the 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Borden House in fall River, the two Boarden houses. So 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: what was the Lizzie Borden House when Ludwig was here, 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: living here, when Ludlick was here, when all this stuff happened. 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: No, so Andrew Borden didn't move into that house until 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: eighteen seventy two. It was built in eighteen forty five. 16 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: But before eighteen forty five, I'm pretty sure it was 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: just an open law. 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: I don't think there was anything there. 19 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: So, and then everything that had happened with Eliza happened 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: around eighteen forties, so on the see. Yeah, so then 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: the Bardon House would have been there when the Eliza Darling. 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 3: And the children had happened. 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Right now, we're looking at Eliza Darling Bordon's home right 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: next to Lizzie Borden's house. 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 2: And there's so little information about Eliza Eliza there is. 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: There's so little that I have found. 27 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, if you're digging in you know the 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: genealogy of it, you're going to come across more. But 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: as far as her with the postpartum depression and the children, 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: it's like that's it. 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: This episode focuses on Eliza Borden, not her great niece. 32 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: Here's what we know so far. Eliza was married when 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: she was young to a man named Silas Darling. They 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: had two boys, William and George. George died at a 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: very young age, and then Silas died. In eighteen forty three, 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: Eliza married Lordwick Borden of the famed Borden family, one 37 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: of the most influential families in Fall River. Lodwick had 38 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: already been married once before he met Eliza. 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: He got married to his first wife, Maria. They had 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: two children. They ended up passing away, and then Maria 41 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: passed away. 42 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: Lodwick and Eliza had children very quickly, one after the other, 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: five years after their wedding, they had three kids. Maria 44 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: came in eighteen forty four, the year after they were married, 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Then little Eliza came in early eighteen forty six, and 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: then finally later that same year, son Holden arrived. 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: She had a three year old, a two year old, 48 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 4: and a sixty nine month old along with her son 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 4: from a previous relationship. 50 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: So by eighteen forty eight, when all this takes place, 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: Eliza and Lodwick had three children under the age of five. Also, 52 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: there was William, who was fifteen years old. They all 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: lived in a small Cape Cod style house on Second 54 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: Street in Full River. Lodwick was gone a lot because 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: of his long hours at the mill. They weren't affluent, 56 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: so Eliza likely didn't have a full time nanna to 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: help with the kids like other women of privilege did. 58 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: But they did have a servant girl as I called her, 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: and she'll play an important role later on. Carrie Nolte 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: says that the Burdens were not high society. 61 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 4: These were working people. They didn't have the money or 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 4: the status that would have society at large really take 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: note of them and put in notices. 64 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Oftentimes in the eighteen hundreds of high society were mentioned 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: in the newspapers. Blah blah from this family, visited blah 66 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: blah from that family. They had lunch or attended a show. 67 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: But it didn't seem like Lodwick and Eliza were that 68 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: kind of couple. Eliza was often alone with three small kids, 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: and she seemed to be having a difficult time more 70 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: than just typical parenting stress, more like a deep depression 71 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: that continued to spiral. 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: She was suffering from what we know now today as 73 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 3: postpartum depression, and I think it took a big toll 74 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: on her, and women back then weren't really allowed to 75 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: talk about mental health. 76 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: Now's a good time to talk about postpartum depression in 77 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: modern terms. Full disclosure. I suffered from it after the 78 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: birth of my twins in two thousand and nine. I 79 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: was able to function very well at work, but at 80 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: home it felt overwhelming to even change their diapers. I 81 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: cried at home and had trouble juggling my job and 82 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: the girls. And it didn't help that I was recovering 83 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: from a C section. I remember telling my mother that 84 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: I could feel a chemical in my body, like pulsating, 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: and it was something that had never been there before. 86 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: I had never felt like this. Lucky for me, I 87 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: was able to quickly get help and get on some 88 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: medicine as well as get some therapy. But many other 89 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: women even today aren't so lucky. I soon felt less overwhelmed. 90 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Though having twins is no joke. I can't imagine having 91 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: three kids under the age of five like Eliza Borden did, 92 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: and I had so many more resources and lots of 93 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: family around. Eliza had an occasional housekeeper, but that was 94 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: likely it. She seemed to lean into her religion for stability, 95 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: but then it seemed like that became a problem. Postpartum 96 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: depression might not have been totally responsible for Eliza's troubles. 97 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: Maybe she had already struggled from mental health issues before 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: she met Loudwick. We don't know, but postpartum depression certainly 99 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: didn't help women in the eighteen hundreds struggled with just 100 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: one child, let alone three. And I'm not sure how 101 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: helpful her son William was either he wasn't home often 102 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: and he was a teenager. I knew that I needed 103 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: an expert in this story on how childbirth can affect 104 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: women and how it can affect their families. 105 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 5: So I'm Professor J. Shri Kul Karney, and I'm the 106 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 5: Professor of Psychiatry Monash University, Melbourne, and I'm an expert 107 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 5: in women's mental health. 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: Professor Culcarney has spent decades studying how hormones affect women, 109 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: particularly after they've had children. 110 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 5: So when you get big fluctuations in these hormones, or 111 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 5: even little fluctuations in these hormones like women have on 112 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 5: a monthly cycle, or even bigger is immediately after a 113 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 5: baby is born, there's a massive drop, particularly in estrogen 114 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 5: in the brain. 115 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: She says that sets off a chain of events in 116 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: brain chemistry that can cause a massive depression. 117 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 5: Plus also sometimes a loss of reality and brain fog 118 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 5: where somebody has lost the capacity to just think through 119 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 5: a normal logical problem like she usually would. And I 120 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 5: think in parts of the world it's still isn't recognized 121 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 5: that it's the hormones that are the trigger. 122 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: Professor Calcarney says that for a very long time people 123 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: kept saying, well, you know, her life has changed after 124 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: having kids. 125 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 5: She's not the boss of the household anymore. She's got 126 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 5: a shift gear from being a high flying executive to 127 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 5: thinking about booties and feeding and that's why the poor 128 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 5: thing is depressed. She can't handle it. 129 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: She says. There was also the theory that sleep deprivation 130 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: could cause psychosis. 131 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 5: But the big X factor that has been really ignored 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 5: up until very recently, and we're only just scratching the 133 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 5: surface now, is this massive chemistry that has shifted in 134 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 5: the brain that in this particular woman has created depression. 135 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: Professor kilcry says that our society has done a real 136 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: disservice to women in the past. 137 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 5: And we're still doing a lot of women a lot 138 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 5: of disservice by kind of fiddle faddling around with well, 139 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 5: you know, why don't you have some behavioral therapy, Why 140 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 5: don't you have some psychotherapy, Why don't you do this differently? 141 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 5: Why don't you. 142 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: Look at you know? 143 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 5: I call it the rainbows and Unicorn approach to major depression, 144 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 5: And we have done badly by many women. 145 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: Now there's a reason why we're talking so much about this. 146 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: Professor Kilcarney says, many women with postpartum depression, including me, 147 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: might encounter more problems later in. 148 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 5: Life, importantly increases their propensity for menopausal depression. You need 149 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: to also be careful because if you've had postnatal depression, 150 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 5: it means that your brain is susceptible to two things. 151 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 5: Whatever the genetic X factor is in the family history 152 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 5: of depression, but also a genetic X factor that is 153 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 5: about sensitivity to hormone blips. 154 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: She says that the biggest hormone blip, even worse than postnatal, 155 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: is peri menopausal. 156 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 5: Be warned, because you can deal with it. If you're warned, 157 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 5: you can arm yourself. You can get into HRT fairly quickly, 158 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 5: or MHT as it's now called. 159 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: But back in the eighteen hundreds, postpartum depression was a 160 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: whole different phenomenon. Historia nel Dourby gives us some context 161 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: about Eliser Borden in her condition from a nineteenth century perspective. 162 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 6: That she's got these three very young children in close 163 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 6: songs session. You don't know how much help she got 164 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 6: from family members. And also she's kind of living in 165 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 6: the shadow of her predecessor because her husband had been 166 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 6: married before and lost two children before. So there's a 167 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 6: lot of ghosts around this house. If you're kind of 168 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 6: susceptible to any kind of mental illness, or you've been 169 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 6: kind of sent over the edge by these close births 170 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 6: and the fact you've got this young baby as well. 171 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: Holden was less than a year old and Eliza was 172 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: thirty seven years old. 173 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 6: So you're, you know, you're very new in terms of 174 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 6: having given birth, and then you've got these ghosts around 175 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 6: as well, perhaps not as much help as you could 176 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 6: do with, or not as much sympathy as you could 177 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 6: do with. You know, I really do feel for her 178 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 6: and other women in her situation. 179 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: Eliza said some odd things to friends and neighbors. As 180 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: Carrie Noughty noted in the last episode. 181 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 4: In May of eighteen forty eight, she had been expressing 182 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 4: fears that everything was going to come crashing down around them, 183 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 4: that they were going to be found in dire circumstances, 184 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: even though the boom was happening and her husband was 185 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 4: in good circumstance. 186 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,119 Speaker 1: Let's clarify here. We don't know what kind of statements 187 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: these were, but whatever Eliza Darling Borden said, it was 188 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: alarming enough for people to take note of it. Carrie 189 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: and I talked about Eliza's background in the last episode. 190 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: She was from a very large family. Her mother died 191 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: when she was eleven, her father died when she was nineteen. 192 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: Eliza had loads of other family members who also passed 193 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: away really quickly, even for nineteenth century standards. Then, of course, 194 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: her young son George died as well as her first 195 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: husband Silas Eliza Borden had grown used to death and misery, 196 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: it seems like Eliza leaned on her faith for comfort, 197 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: as many people did in the eighteen hundreds. Eliza grew 198 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: up in New Dford, Massachusetts, at a time when there 199 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of religious fervor. That era is sometimes 200 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: referred to as the Second Great Awakening. Here's a little background. 201 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: In the late seventeen hundreds, nearly ninety percent of white 202 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: Americans did not attend church, and likely as a reaction 203 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: to that, Christian revival meetings began to pop up. These 204 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: were lively services led by preachers who would now be 205 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: labeled as evangelical, and parishioners at the mass gatherings heard 206 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: inspiring biblical messages about saving their souls. Historians say the 207 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Second Great Awakening began around eighteen hundred and lasted about 208 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: thirty years, which puts it right at the time when 209 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: Eliza Darling was a young woman. 210 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 4: I frankly wonder how much that over the course of 211 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 4: her life, how much religious fervor played into what she 212 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 4: was going through. There was a sense during the second 213 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 4: grade awaken that Jesus might be coming any day, that 214 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 4: you needed to prepare, you need to purify. I would 215 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 4: love to know what kinds of things she was saying. 216 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: Carrie thinks that Eliza was focused on preparing. Remember the 217 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: Great Fire of eighteen forty three had destroyed an enormous 218 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: swath of Fall River just five years earlier. Perhaps Eliza 219 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: was afraid of more disasters like that. Whatever Eliza was 220 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: preparing for, she was really focused on the youngest children. 221 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 4: She was more than sad that she was convinced, perhaps 222 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 4: full of conviction, that something else was coming that she 223 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 4: needed to prepare her children. 224 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: Carrie and I talked about this kind of depression, postpartum depression. 225 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: I wondered how it was handled in the nineteenth century, 226 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: so it's difficult. 227 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 4: There are records. Usually the term that they would use 228 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 4: is distracted. In the seventeenth and eighteenth century, that was 229 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 4: sort of the I don't want to say you from 230 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 4: mystic term. It seems you from mystic to us now. 231 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: But I think then it just kind of meant, you know, 232 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 4: this is something that's going on in their own heads. 233 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: If a woman in the eighteen hundreds was suspected of 234 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: having depression, any kind of depression, they could be sent 235 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: away to a private institution. But those were only for 236 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: certain people of privilege. I asked historian Neil Darby for 237 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: more clarity. 238 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's it. If you're well off enough, 239 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 6: or your family are well off, they might send you 240 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 6: to a private institution, you know, private asylum, whereas otherwise, 241 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 6: you know, you're you're forced on the results of the 242 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 6: local community, you know, and you be sent to an 243 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 6: institution that is not going to be as nice, it's 244 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 6: not going to use all the latest methods, you know, 245 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 6: in this case of shutting you away. So again, the 246 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 6: treatment you get and where you go to recover are 247 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 6: very much determined by how much money you have. 248 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: Carrie Naughty says that she's discovered something interesting in the 249 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: historical records she's been studying. She says that there are 250 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: notations about families putting aside money for family members to 251 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: be assigned a caretaker, almost like a line item in 252 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: their budget. 253 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 4: That could be a mental illness that that person is suffering. 254 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 4: From and so they can't take care of themselves, or 255 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: that could be that they are somehow perhaps they have 256 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 4: down syndrome, or perhaps they are crippled in some way. 257 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 4: There's not really any way to distinguish that unless they 258 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: go further into detail, which they usually didn't. 259 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: Eliza Borden seemed to swing between offering ominous religious warnings 260 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: about the end of the world and expressing growing concern 261 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: over her own children. A reminder of their ages. 262 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 4: So her daughter Maria was three going on four, her 263 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 4: second daughter, Eliza Ann was about two years old going 264 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 4: on three, and her son Holden was not even nine 265 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 4: months old. 266 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: Eliza's mental health was devolving. It seemed Lodwick should have 267 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: been concerned, but we don't know if he really was, 268 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: and we don't have a sense for her relationship. 269 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: With Lovewick, right, not really, I mean, aside from the 270 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 4: fact that he, like many many others, ignored what were 271 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 4: the warning signs of an impending disaster. 272 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: Carrie Noulty and I have talked about agency a lot 273 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: over the last two seasons, mostly the agency of women 274 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: over their own decisions, like Rebecca Cornell's ability to keep 275 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: her property. She couldn't leave it to get away from 276 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: her son and his overbearing wife. Carrie says that agency 277 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: is important in this story too, because Lodwick certainly would 278 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: have recognized troubling signs with his wife, but if he 279 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: chose to ignore them, then there was little anyone else 280 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: could do, including Eliza. 281 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 4: Women couldn't have bank accounts, mostly couldn't hold jobs, didn't 282 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 4: really have very much power, and sex was seen as 283 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 4: a conjugal right, and the man's word was law, So 284 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 4: just by virtue of custom, it was going to be 285 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 4: an unequal situation. 286 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: Now, if you get. 287 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 4: A man in that kind of a situation who is brusque, 288 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 4: who is uncaring, unfeeling, maybe manipulative, or maybe violent, that 289 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 4: can be a recipe for disaster. And you have almost 290 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 4: no recourse because divorce is still shameful. 291 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: Eliza likely had little help except for a housekeeper that 292 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: is sometimes referred to as a servant girl. Let's talk 293 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: about what happened that day in eighteen forty eight, but 294 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to go quickly. It was Wednesday, May third, 295 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Eliza Darling Borden was working in the house as the 296 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: servant girl flitted around. It was mid afternoon, around four 297 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: or five Lodwick was still at the mill, so it 298 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: was just Eliza and the three little children in the house. 299 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: Eliza called over the young woman who worked in the house. 300 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: She had a request more water for the cistern downstairs. 301 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: We've talked about cisterns before. They were waterproof tanks used 302 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: for holding liquids in the eighteen hundreds and some in 303 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds. The servant nodded at Eliza's request and 304 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: quickly left on the errand. 305 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 4: The person who was living with them at the time, 306 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 4: a servant, I believe, went out to get a pail 307 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 4: of water upon missus Borden's request. 308 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: The servant couldn't have been gone long, just minutes maybe 309 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: do we have any sense for how long the maid 310 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: would have taken to go get the water? 311 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 7: Whoever, how long. 312 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 4: It was, I mean, I am unaware of where the 313 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 4: well was. It was some kind of errand, perhaps it 314 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 4: was more than one errand. And when she came back, 315 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 4: she was looking for her and Maria told her that 316 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: she was in the cellar. 317 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Remember Maria was the three year old girl. She was upstairs. 318 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: When the servant girl returned. The servant girl opened the 319 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: door to the cellar stairs and listened. 320 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 4: And she heard the groans of a rapidly dying Missus 321 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 4: Bordon Eliza, and didn't want to go in and affetched 322 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 4: the authorities. 323 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: The servant girl was petrified. Eventually someone went downstairs and 324 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: made a terrible discovery. Eliza Borden had done something horrible 325 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: to her two youngest children. 326 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 3: She just did the unimaginable. She brought her children down 327 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 3: the stairs to the basement where the cistern was, and 328 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 3: she threw them into the cistern and hold her who 329 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: was an infant, and Eliza Ann, her daughter. They both 330 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 3: passed away. 331 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: Eliza Borden had drowned them in the cistern. But Carrie 332 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: Noulty reminds us that the servant had heard moaning, presumably 333 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: from Eliza. They discovered her and her throat was cut 334 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: with a razor. Eliza had bled to death. There's a 335 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: little debate about where this happened. 336 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 4: Reports vary. Some say that she slit her own throat 337 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 4: right there, and some say that she went up into 338 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: the attic behind the chimney and cut her throat there. 339 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 4: With time and with retelling, people may have gotten details wrong. 340 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 6: We really don't know. 341 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 4: To me, It seems strange that she would move, especially 342 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: given that we do have a report that she was 343 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 4: heard whimpering. But it seems like if she stayed in 344 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 4: the basement, she moved behind some thing. 345 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: The newspapers of the time said it happened nearby, behind 346 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: the chimney. I'm guessing that part of the chimney was 347 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: in the cellar, which is where some of the confusion lies. 348 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: Eliza Borden and two of her children were dead, an 349 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: awful family tragedy, and cutting your own throat seems unthinkable 350 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: and painful. I asked carry Nolty about it. 351 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 4: I've seen a number of historical true crimes where people 352 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 4: have cut their own throats with razors, but some of 353 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 4: them were because that was the only thing available to them, 354 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 4: like they were in jail or something like that. 355 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: She has poison available. 356 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 4: I mean in eighteen forty eight, literally everyone had poison available. 357 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 4: But if you think about it, drowning is a way 358 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 4: to kill your child without really causing physical damage to them, 359 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 4: so they look peaceful. Not that drowning isn't damage, but 360 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: it it doesn't leave marks the way that strangling would, 361 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: the way that beating wood, the way that cutting Wood. 362 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: There are mysteries in this story. I asked historian Nel 363 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: Darby about drowning. Why drowned the children instead of using 364 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: a blade? 365 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 6: You know, did she not have enough blade? You know 366 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 6: that that would have been far quicker. And yet she 367 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 6: has really kind of made a point of drowning these 368 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 6: two children. 369 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: Nell says that in Victorian times women might drown their 370 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: children because there were nearby lakes or streams. 371 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 6: And I've looked at a case. I think it's eighteen 372 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 6: sixty seven. So Emma Greenwood in northern England, she went 373 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 6: and killed her youngest child by drowning them in a stream. 374 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 6: But I kind of get more of a picture of 375 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 6: how she did it because she don't walked to the 376 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 6: local police station, and she was found in the lobby 377 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 6: of the police station absolutely stopping wet. So she'd got 378 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 6: in the stream with the child and crouched down and 379 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 6: held him down. 380 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: Nell says that what was disturbing to her was that 381 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: Emma Greenwood wasn't on the side of the stream pushing 382 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: him in. She was in the water with him. 383 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 6: She was there with him, getting wet, getting miserable, drowning him. 384 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 6: And that was similar actually to the Eliza Borden case, 385 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 6: in that she had more than one child. She only 386 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 6: killed the youngest because he was the easiest, obviously the 387 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 6: smallest to drown, but the other three children escaped and 388 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 6: she actually said she wishes she had killed the next 389 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 6: youngest as well. 390 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: I wondered about that. Why did Eliza Borden allow Maria 391 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: to escape death? 392 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 6: But you know, I was thinking about that with Eliza Borden, 393 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 6: in the fact that the oldest child did get away, 394 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 6: and presumably that's because she was the biggest, the heaviest, 395 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 6: you know, the hardest for her mother to control. 396 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: Kerrie Naughty has a different idea. I wonder why she 397 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: would leave the daughter of the three year old Maria. 398 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 4: I think maybe maybe perhaps she heard the maid coming 399 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 4: back and thought she had to care of herself first, 400 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 4: and she was running out of time, and maybe Maria 401 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: was old enough to escape. 402 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: Strangely, there was little mention of the murders in the 403 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: Fall River press, and the media's response seemed almost empathetic 404 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: to Eliza. One newspaper clipping is titled Melancholy Affair, and 405 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: it says a most melancholy occurrence took place in Fall 406 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: River Wednesday afternoon, between the hours of four and five, 407 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: the wife of mister Ludwick Borden, one of our most 408 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: respected citizens, residing on Second Street, took her two youngest children, 409 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 1: went down cellar and drowned them in the cistern, then, 410 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: stepping behind the chimney, cut her own throat with a 411 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: razor and died almost instantly. No person was present at 412 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: the time, the servant girl having just stepped out to 413 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: draw a pail of water, leaving Missus b with her 414 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: three youngest children. Missus Borden had appeared rather melancholy for 415 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: a few days past, and it is probable that she 416 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: committed the lamentable deed in insanity. But another article offers 417 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: a bit more clarity. It essentially says the same thing, 418 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: but there is an interesting note at the end. Missus 419 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Borden has been affected in her reason lately and has 420 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: expressed fears that she should come to want It seems 421 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: clear that Eliza Darlingbordon needed mental health help desperately, and 422 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: Nel Darby says even people in the eighteen hundreds understood that. 423 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 6: It's interesting looking at it from our perspective today, we 424 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 6: have a lot of empathy to work women who are 425 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 6: kind of pushed towards kind of my children, and it 426 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 6: is the result of postplasum depression. And so it has 427 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 6: always been this awareness that this existed, you know, from 428 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 6: times of antiquity, there was an awareness that this existed. 429 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 6: But how it's been treated throughout history has kind of changed, 430 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 6: and there's still I think quite a bias in terms 431 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 6: of who we decide to give that empathy and that 432 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 6: sympathy towards. 433 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: Author Kara Robertson says that the assumption was that she 434 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: must have been insane to do something like that. In fact, 435 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundred's postpartum depression was sometimes referred to 436 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: as purple insanity. 437 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 8: You know, there wasn't any other I don't know for 438 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 8: sinister explanation, just it was. It was seen as a 439 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 8: family tragedy, and loto Wick had had more ordinary tragedies 440 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 8: before he's lost his first wife and children. Now. 441 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: Darby says that in the nineteenth century there was a 442 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: kind of class bias that certain type of women were 443 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: given more sympathy in the press and in the courts 444 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: than other types of women. 445 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 6: And so say, if you were young, unmarried, you were 446 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 6: about to lose your job because you were pregnant. Women 447 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 6: like that who then went and killed their newborn children 448 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 6: were seen with more sympathy because it was viewed as, oh, well, 449 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 6: they're trying to avoid this kind of social stigma of 450 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 6: having these illegitimate children. They're trying to find a way 451 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 6: of returning to work, of not being a burden on society. 452 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: Nell says that another category of women were not offered 453 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: much sympathy at all. 454 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 6: An older married woman who is suffering from postpartum depression 455 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 6: and kills a child. 456 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 7: That scene as. 457 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 6: Being slightly less understandable, because well, if you're married, surely 458 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 6: you should want to look after these children. 459 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 7: That is your role. 460 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 6: You are a wife, you are a mother. How can 461 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 6: that depression be such that it causes you to kill 462 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 6: your child. That's so unnatural. 463 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: Nel says that today, if you read British tabloid newspapers, 464 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: they still choose how much sympathy to give to individual women. 465 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: They choose who deserves that sympathy and who doesn't. And 466 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: you can see that all the way back in history 467 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: as well. 468 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 6: When I've looked at the Victorian press and how they've 469 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 6: treated such cases, you can see this playing out that 470 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 6: they want to understand certain types of offender more. They 471 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 6: will give more space to women who are perceived to 472 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 6: be white, middle class, more respectable in their minds. 473 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: But if you come from the wrong side of the tracks, 474 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: if you're a different ethnicity, a different class, they will 475 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: give you less coverage and less sympathy. 476 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 6: They don't want to hear so much about what your 477 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 6: reasoning is behind what you've done. So it is hard 478 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 6: when you read some of these accounts and how some 479 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 6: of these women are described. There's very much judgment in 480 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 6: the background there. 481 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: Nell says that the way women were treated has evolved 482 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: over the centuries, even women in poverty or women of color. 483 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 6: Well, I think there's a gradual shift earlier than that. 484 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 6: I think even from kind of the eighteen sixties onwards. 485 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 6: I've seen cases where you can see that attitudes are 486 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 6: changing slightly, and that's kind of prevalent. In the course 487 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 6: as well. You see judges and juries who are really 488 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 6: reluctant to kind of sentences women for murder or to 489 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 6: hang them because they recognize that there's something else going 490 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 6: on here. 491 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: Postpartum depression as a cause for crime slowly began to 492 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: be treated differently. 493 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 6: It's not a standard offense, and so in Britain we 494 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 6: had the Infanticide Act in the twentieth century. You know, 495 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 6: that seems really late, considering the fact that even in 496 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 6: the late nineteenth century you're getting these kind of shifts 497 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 6: in attitude and this reluctance to kind of sentence these 498 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 6: women to death because there's a greater understanding of the 499 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 6: fact that something else has happened here, that they are 500 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 6: struggling immediately after birth, that this is a particular form 501 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 6: of insanity. Again that as they still describe it, but 502 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 6: it's very much related to childbirth and it's aftermath. 503 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about where everyone else ended up after 504 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: the deaths of Eliza, the youngest Eliza and Holden. Maria 505 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: was the only survivor. She was Andrew Borden's first cousin, 506 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: and we still aren't sure why she was the only survivor. 507 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: But what happened to her after all of this. I'm 508 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,479 Speaker 1: sure some of you might know this, but there's a 509 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: fabulous Lizzie Bordon blog called Warps and WEF's and this 510 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: next story is from it. Two years after the murders 511 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty, Maria was still in the house when 512 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: they received a border named Samuel b Hinckley. He was 513 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: eighteen at the time. This was the man that Maria 514 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: would eventually marry. She would become Maria Bordon Hinckley when 515 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: she was twenty one. Samuel Hinckley was registered with the 516 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: city of Fall River as a painter. In other places, 517 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: I've read that he was a miller, like Lodwick had been. 518 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: He was a widower with children. Maria had never been married, 519 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: but within four years she was back living with her 520 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: father and his third wife. She and Samuel Hinckley had 521 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: apparently divorced. Three years after that, she married again, this 522 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: time to a man named John Chase, and they had 523 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: two children, a girl she named Emma and a boy 524 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: she named Lodwick. Maria died in Fall River in nineteen 525 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: oh nine at age sixty four. So that's what happened 526 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: to Maria. We know less about Eliza's fifteen year old son, 527 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: William Darling. He apparently left the Bardon house and. 528 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 4: He ended up being put into the guardianship of a 529 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 4: Joseph Bordon. And I couldn't find any relation between Joseph 530 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: Bordon and Lodwick. That didn't seem to be anything that 531 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 4: was connecting them beyond a few like I loked a 532 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 4: few generations above. I couldn't find really anything. It may 533 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 4: have been a apprenticeship kind of a situation. 534 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: William Darling was just listed in the census as a laborer. 535 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: He married an english woman named Mary Hargreaves in eighteen 536 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: fifty three when he was twenty, and they had two 537 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: little girls. He died in eighteen seventy eight at the 538 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: age of forty five. We don't know of what, and 539 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: of course I was curious about what happened to Loudwick 540 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: after the loss of his wife and their two youngest children, 541 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: Ashley and Carrie. Filled me in. 542 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: And he remarried a couple of years later to another Eliza, 543 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: who also passed away. 544 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 3: And then he remarried his last time, his fourth time. 545 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 3: I can't really pronounce her name, but she was on record. 546 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: She was noted as his widow, so she did outlive 547 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 2: mister Lodwick born in there. 548 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: According to the warps in WEF's blog, this fourth wife 549 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: was Ruhamah Crocker Bordon. After Lordwick died in eighteen seventy four, 550 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: she was listed as Loudwick's widow in Fall River City directories. 551 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: I asked about that house. What happened to it after 552 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: all of this was said and done? 553 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 6: Did he stay living in that house? 554 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: He did, and with his third and fourth wife. 555 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 4: With his third wife, he eventually moved down the street, 556 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 4: probably as new construction was being completed after the fire. 557 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 4: But yeah, he stayed there for a good deal of time. 558 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: Boy, I'm not sure how. There was so much pain 559 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: in that house, so much anguish, and those must have 560 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: been painful memories, especially for William and Maria. I know 561 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: if it were me, I would find it hard to 562 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: handle even being in the same space. But today, once 563 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: a year, a well known group called the Mutton Eaters 564 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: visits the cellar where Eliza and her two children died 565 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: back in eighteen forty eight. 566 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 2: There is a group of people that come here annually. 567 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: I think the Mutton Eaters they come, Yes, they come 568 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: here annually and they visit the house. 569 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: So did they visit this place or they visit your 570 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: this house? 571 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? 572 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: The Mutton Eaters believe that the spirits of Eliza's children 573 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: have traveled next door to their cousin Andrew Borden's home 574 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: to haunt Lizzie Bordon's attic which seems curious until you 575 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: learn about the paranormal current that seems to run between 576 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: the two homes, humming quietly, just waiting to be discovered. 577 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: It sounds like some guests at the Lizzie Bordon house 578 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: leave toys for the ghost children in the guest rooms. 579 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: Ghost Hunters claim that they can hear childish laughter and 580 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: sounds of playing upstairs. Local ghost expert Jeff Ballinger reminds 581 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: us that New England is very haunted. 582 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 7: Who knows. I mean, a lot of people came and 583 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 7: went in that house. You know, there was a family 584 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 7: in there before the Bourdons and after the Bourdons. So 585 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 7: we can't help but make a connection. Maybe we hear 586 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 7: scampering footsteps and say, it sounds like a kid minute 587 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 7: right next door. They must have come over here to 588 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 7: be with their dead relative, ghost relatives or something. 589 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 8: We don't know. 590 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 7: We only speculate. But that's but the story comes up 591 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 7: again and again to the point where there's a chest 592 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 7: in the corner of the bedroom filled with toys that 593 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 7: they leave out for these ghostly children. 594 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't know about ghostly children, but if any place 595 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: in Fall River is haunted, it must be the Oak 596 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: Grove cemetery. So now what we are looking? 597 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 4: Where is this? 598 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 7: What we want to do? 599 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 8: I think is like probably could. 600 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 4: I'm trying to figure out where maybe get this. 601 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: So look here's the photo. Yeah, it's here where all 602 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: the Burdens are buried, including Lizzie and her great uncle Lodwick. 603 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: I'm more interested in finding Eliza as well as the kids. 604 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 4: Is it rounded or is it? 605 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: It's just tiny and square, but I think it's by 606 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: a big sign that says Bordon. Oh oh yeah, that's it. 607 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: That's pretty worn. 608 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 5: Wow. 609 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: And the kids are here. 610 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 4: Too, Yeah, this is Lodwick Bordon, This is Eliza Eliza. 611 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: And what about the kids? 612 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 4: I think they're over here. 613 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: It takes a while, but Carrie Nolty and I finally 614 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: discover Eliza's headstone and we're both surprised about where it's located. 615 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 6: Do you think it's interesting. 616 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 8: That Lodwick Borden had her buried right next to his 617 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 8: first wife in the cemetery. 618 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 4: I do, and the children are right across from them 619 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 4: mm hmm. But not his third wife. 620 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: It looks like his third wife was buried in a 621 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: different cemetery in full River, perhaps, though he didn't show it. 622 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: At the time, Lodwick had actually felt a deeper connection 623 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: to his second wife, Eliza. This is I can't even 624 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: read that. Here's an eighteen thirty six to eighteen thirty six. 625 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: He must have had a bunch of kids. 626 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 4: Jesus Eliza Ann. 627 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: And then this one this is whole Oden. Wow, look 628 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: at these tiny little headstones. 629 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 4: Because they didn't have money. 630 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: That's so sad. These are all broken. Now this might 631 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: seem like the end of our story about Eliza Hathaway 632 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: Darling Borden, but not really, because Lizzie Borden's great aunt 633 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: had a bigger influence than we originally thought. But for now, 634 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: let's fast forward more than forty years and move next 635 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: door to that infamous house where Lizzie Borden lived. It's 636 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety two, and very soon Eliza Borden's spirit will 637 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: make another appearance. On the next episode of tenfold war 638 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: wicked on exactly right. 639 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 8: There's a you know, inciting incident. There's an issue with 640 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 8: a property transfer about five years before the murders. 641 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 7: Serial killers will have an mo and they'll start to 642 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 7: do what they do and sometimes people copy them, thinking, wow, 643 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 7: I want to do that. I want to get away 644 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 7: with it. I want to be part of the story. 645 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 7: And so the axe murder is that is that a 646 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 7: copycat effect? 647 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 8: So it happened on the day that the jury was 648 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 8: being picked, so it was it was possible that the 649 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 8: jurors might have had that in their heads. I mean, 650 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 8: they knew about the murders beforehand and then and if 651 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 8: they were chosen, they were immediately sequestered, right, So it's 652 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 8: possible that they could have thought, well, maybe there's just 653 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 8: somebody going around doing this, and so it's not Lizzie 654 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 8: Borden at all. 655 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: If you love true crime, check out my books American 656 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. I also have an 657 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to 658 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: tell you the real story about the world's most famous 659 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most 660 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: famous ghost club and how he investigated England's most famous 661 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more 662 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: media production producer Jason Whaling, senior producer Alexis m Rossi, 663 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: consulting producer Kyle Ryan, sound designer Eric Friend, composed Curtis Heath, 664 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: additional music Jeremy Buller, artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia 665 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: hart Stark, Karen Kelgarriff and Danielle Kramer.