WEBVTT - The War on Critical Thought 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:04.720 This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble, 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:09.399 starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.639 The strama tells the story of recently divorce Toby Fleischmann, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.320 who dies into the world of app bass dating with 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.360 the kind of success he never had in his youth. 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.280 Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.880 children and no hint of her return effectus. Fleischman Is 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:43.000 in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps, 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.720 and welcome to WIKA f Daily with Me Your Girl. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.800 Danielle Moody pre recording from my Brooklyn Silarium. Folks, Today, 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:56.000 I'm really excited to bring a conversation to you with 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.400 doctor Keisha Blaine. She's an associate professor of history at 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.000 the University of Pittsburgh an author of the book Until 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:09.840 I Am Free, Fannie lou Hamer's Enduring Message to America. 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.160 I get into a really great conversation with doctor Blaine 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:20.160 about how important history is, particularly right now, and what 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:28.319 it means to her to see such a pushback against 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.119 the true history of this country. That she's dedicated her 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.440 professional life to not only studying, but in offering to 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.640 all of us pieces of that history through her work, 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:46.280 whether it is her writing for MSNBC dot com or 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.279 through her several books that she has. And I think 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.160 about history a lot, because for me, it was one 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.360 of my favorite subjects in school. History, which would then 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:04.919 turn into government. Into government and politics were always really 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.280 interesting to me. I liked learning about the people that 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.760 came before me, about how they what their role was 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.880 in moving our society forward, or what their role was 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:23.600 in thwarting progress. I remember my first time going to 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:32.040 the US capital, and it was my first day working 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.600 on Capitol Hill and I was coming up the Metro 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.280 Capitol South station in Washington, DC. When you come up 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:46.079 that long escalator ride up the stairs, you look up 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.240 and around you can see the Capitol, which looks like, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.240 you know, a three D pop up right, like a 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.720 three member those three D books or cards that you 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.080 would get. It looks like that. It almost looks, you know, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.680 super imposed on the landscape. And then all of these 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:10.680 huge white, you know, congressional buildings, offices, congressional offices surrounding. 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:18.480 And I remember coming up those escalators and catching my breath, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.880 that I could not believe that I was going to 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:27.560 be walking the same paths as so many of my 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:33.520 heroes and heroines. And what I think about history now, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.560 and I particularly, you know, following the insurrection, which I 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.160 remember crying that day, I will be honest with you, 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.040 the day of the insurrection one six. And why was 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:54.440 I crying? Because these people, that angry white mob ruined 0:03:54.560 --> 0:04:00.520 something that I treasure right, which is our democracy. But 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.480 these buildings, to me, are more than buildings there where 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:09.800 lives are changed, made better or worse. There where this 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:16.520 area is where history is made, where speeches that resonate 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:25.680 are made, where quotes are chiseled into marble. Knowing that 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.960 it was enslaved black people that created all of this, right, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.880 and having that juxtaposition of emotion where on one hand, 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.160 I am thinking, oh, my goodness, I'm going to be 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.320 a part of history, and I'm going to be a 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.840 part of creating legislation and working on bills, you know, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.040 and shaping this country for the better. And then on 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.200 the other hand really thinking to myself, oh, dear God, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.920 this place is filled with the skeletons of people that 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.159 we will never know, We'll never know the names of 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:12.080 the enslaved African people whose hands and bodies were broken 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.800 so that this country could be formed. It's a really 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:23.120 interesting place to kind of sit. And in my conversation 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.880 with doctor Kesha Blaine, you know, we both lament about 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.800 who we would be if our history hadn't been robbed 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:38.800 from us. That there are so many actors, so many 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.839 people important, people like Fanny leu Hamer, who people really 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.960 don't know, which is why doctor Blaine wrote the book. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.520 She said, as a historian, somebody that went to school 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.880 to become a professional historian, she did not learn about 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:02.960 Fanny leu Hammer until her senior year of college. And 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:09.200 so when we talk about this fight against truth, this 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:16.040 fight against history, it we never really delve into how 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:23.599 it has been robbed from all of us, not just 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:29.760 about the whitewashing right. The whitewashing is a purposeful weapon, 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:38.880 right to weaponize and to demean, right to demean other 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.479 communities and groups, to say that they have had nothing 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.560 to offer, that they are not really Americans. And this 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:51.839 is why you have angry white Americans these days pointing 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.360 and telling you who is American and who isn't. Because 0:06:55.360 --> 0:07:00.120 it has been indoctrinated, because if they learned who who 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.960 created the cotton gin, who created the light filament, who 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.040 created the stop light, who created the hair press, who 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.400 created this, that and the other thing, Then if that 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.840 had been taught as a part of their history, not 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.040 just during Black History Month, but had been a part 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.840 of how they learned history, do you think that we 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.280 would be in this tormented, hate filled place that we 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:32.000 are now. I don't think so. And that is purposeful 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.720 because I've said this before. If you can profit off 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.560 of hate, and if hate and fear are easier to 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.560 sell than hope, and you're a snake oil salesman like Trump, 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.480 like a Tucker Carlson, like the late piece of shit 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:52.840 Rush Limbaugh, if you are going to be like the Rogan, 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:54.880 you know, like, if you are going to be that 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:05.120 person who is going to capitalize on misery, then it 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.520 works for you to maintain that lie. And how do 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.680 you do that through education. That's why I say that 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:19.200 education is one of the biggest ways that we keep 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:23.640 white supremacy going. Just look through your child's history book. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.440 There is no mention of the contributions of really anybody 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:35.400 outside of white men. So why then do you think 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.600 that white men are the only ones that are ever 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:43.160 in power, are allowed to have power. Why do you 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.320 think that these people walk around and they get to 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.120 tell you or ask you where are you from? Where 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:54.000 did you come from? If you are not white? Because 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.400 our contributions, the myriad of contributions that are made by 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:04.600 black people, Brown people, Asian, Pacific Islanders, everybody, Latin X people, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:11.760 Native Americans who we completely dismiss altogether contributed to the 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:21.280 story of America. But as I have often said, history 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.440 is told by the conqueror, not the conquered. That's what 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:33.360 the cricket player said. History is told by the conqueror, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:40.320 not the conquered. But we have an opportunity because we 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.760 are conscious to the fuckory now. We are all aware 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.800 about the gaslight and how deep it goes because we 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.080 are watching it play out right now. We wondered, how 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:56.400 did people think about, you know, think you think about 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.280 back in the day when we were when we were 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:03.280 burning women at the state right, because any woman that 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:11.480 had an opinion of thought leadership was considered a witch. Right, 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.800 how is it that we think that we have grown 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.319 when those same people who would have burned women at 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.760 the stake right, are the same people that are burning books, 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.679 are the same people that are telling women that you 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:34.240 can't have control over your bodies? Right. We haven't grown, really, 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:40.480 We just the tactics of oppression have just changed with 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:46.439 time and technology. And I think that the reason why 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:52.040 it continues is because we don't know our history. We 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.760 take these isolated incidents that the powers that be want 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:02.240 to tell us right how to move, how they are, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.600 but we don't really ask questions because you see, we 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:14.000 don't teach in a way that we want people to 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:27.320 ask questions. We want to deposit information. We don't want 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:32.319 to teach critical thinking. And that makes sense given the 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:37.280 fact that we just initially wanted people to be on 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.440 lines at factories. You put in this widget thing, the 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.840 person next to you puts in their widget thing, and 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:48.160 there was really no interrogation of the process. Right. You 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.120 never even saw probably the end result. You just looked 0:11:52.120 --> 0:12:00.480 at your piece. H there's no real critical thought. The 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:05.640 world has changed rapidly, and we would do a service 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:11.600 to each other if we actually asked more questions, if 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:18.120 we knew the truth. And so I'm so excited for 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.120 you all to hear the conversation with doctor Kesha Blaine, 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:28.319 Because one, there are some very horrific things that have 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:33.040 happened in this country, that continue to happen in this country, 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:40.280 And I believe that we are in the midst of 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:49.080 an extraordinary and extraordinarily dangerous breakthrough. They don't call them 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:56.120 growing pains for no reason. Growth is painful. Breakthroughs are painful. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:02.000 So are breakdowns. I believe that both of these things 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.560 are happening right now. We have an opportunity. Who do 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.640 we want to be? What do we want the next 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.000 chapters of our story of America's story to be the 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.840 continued perpetuation of the lies, or an opportunity to reimagine 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:26.800 the story not through the perception the prism of the conqueror, 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:34.000 but through those that have been conquered, through those who 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:39.760 have been invisibilized. What would that American history book look like? 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:48.440 What would that story be? You know, in societies that 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:56.600 are on the brink, a couple of things happen. You 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.240 begin to use the media as a tool for propaganda. 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:14.760 You spread lies, you discredit truth, scientist academics facts. Do 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:21.200 you wear people out emotionally with anxiety, fear of loss, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.320 which creates tribalism, and then you go in for the kill. 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:35.120 We're in Act three right now, and I'm not quite 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:39.720 sure how the play is going to end. I'm pretty 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:44.400 sure it's not a comedy. I'm pretty sure it's not 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:50.040 even a dramedy at this point. But there is opportunity 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.600 in the obstacles that we are being presented with. How 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.560 this story ends, I think is going to be up 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:04.240 to every single one of us. We will see coming 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.640 up next, friends, is my conversation with doctor Kesha Blaine, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.840 the author of Until I Am Free, Fanny lu Hamer's 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:19.920 Enduring Message to America. And then the reality is is 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.640 that until all of us are free, none of us, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:32.000 none of us are free, folks. I am very excited 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.360 to welcome to woke f for the very first time, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.320 doctor Kesha Blaine, who's Associate professor of history at the 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:44.200 University of Pittsburgh, also an MSNBC columnists and the author 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.400 of Until I Am Free, Fanny lu Hamer's Enduring Message 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:53.960 to America. Doctor Kesha Blaine, let me first start off 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.040 with saying that one of the things that I've always 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.520 troubled me in my life is how little I know 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:07.360 about some of the most extraordinary and exceptional black activists 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.040 that are responsible frankly for the work that I do, 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.120 for me even being able to be here and speak 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.760 out on behalf of injustice. Fanny lu Hamer is one 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.440 of those people who, while the name may roll off 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:29.000 the tongue, the real understanding of what she endured right, 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.680 how she became an activist and why is something that 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.120 you explore in this book. And I want to ask you, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.200 you know again, from my vantage point, this type of 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:47.080 history is necessary because it's been purposefully white, It's been 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:52.480 purposefully whitewashed and denied right from our quote unquote mainstream education. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.520 We're watching this happen right now with the pushback and 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.800 the white lash against critical race theory, which isn't even 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.080 taught in K three twelve. But nonetheless, what compelled you 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:11.200 at this particular time to really delve into Fanny Luhimer's life? Wow, 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.720 so many factors, And you know, listening to you made 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.439 me think about my own experience because it was not 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.240 until senior year of college that I even found out 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.679 about Fanny Luhimer. And I was majoring in history and 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.280 afrikan of Studies. I was taking courses particularly on the 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.359 black experience, but it still took me some time to 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.760 get to her, and I think this is true for 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.679 most people. One of the reasons why I wanted to 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.000 write this book in this particular moment was not only 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.720 to introduce people to Fanny Luhimer, but more sort of 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:54.359 to get people to start thinking about how Fanny Luhimer's ideas, 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:59.840 how her political strategies, how her activism could in fact 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.840 provide a model for us. I think there was a 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.320 particular moment where, you know, I was just sitting and 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.760 reflecting on everything that was going on, and this was 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.399 in the context of the Trump presidency. This was also 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.399 the context of the uprisings that were taking place across 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:22.200 the nation and also globally, and I think so many, 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.359 like so many people, I felt discouraged. I was frustrated 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.680 because I said to myself, we are constantly it seems 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:31.720 like we're fighting the same battles over and over again. 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.920 It seems like we're not making as much progress as 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.120 we think we're making, or even when we do make progress, 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.600 we're making steps backwards. And so for me, it was 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.560 about centering Fannie Wiheimer's voice and her words, which always 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:51.320 inspired me and I returned to Hammer, particularly during the pandemic, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.960 during the uprisings, uh, you know, reading more about her, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.399 you know, reading her speeches again, and I felt it 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.680 was necessary to bring the story to a large republic, 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.760 um that I believe needed to hear humorous voice, not 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.919 only to find inspiration, but particularly to find political strategy 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.159 and to figure out how we could make this nation 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.199 better and certainly this world better. You know. One of 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.800 the things that strikes me in your book and in 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.280 the in the Discovery is that sanny Lu did not 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:32.600 become an activist until in her mid forties. Um. Can 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.480 you speak to that, because you know, many folks when 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.879 we think about activism, right, we think about marches and 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:45.959 young people, um, you know, getting um engaged in our 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.720 in our teens. Right. And and for some people, again, 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.280 there are different moments, there are different catalysts. And for sure, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:56.000 you know, during twenty twenty, when there was just so 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.560 much horrific racial injustice that was transpiring. I mean, right 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.000 now we're watching the Kyle Rittenhouse case. Right now we're 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.960 watching you know, the murder trial of the men that 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.919 killed Ahmad Aubrey in cold blood, all of this having 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:17.679 transpired over twenty twenty sparked activism in people that hadn't 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:22.639 been before. What was the spark or sparks for Fanny 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.200 leu Hamer at the age as you say at a 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.080 forty four, Well, there are so many factors, you know. 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.480 One of the things that I emphasize in the book 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.919 that I think is so important to think about is 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.360 the crucial work of the Student Non Violence Coordinating Committee. 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.840 So this is an organization that we referred to as SMIKE. 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.320 And what is so interesting about this is I think 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.000 most people are pretty familiar with many of the activisms 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.520 in SMIKE. We're talking about folks like John Lewis, Bob Moses, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.119 and you know, as you point out, many of the 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.520 activists who are involved were quite young. SNICK as an 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.240 organization had been established on a college campus that many 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.199 of those who were leaders in the movement were in 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:09.119 their early twenties when they got involved. But one of 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.200 the things that's so valuable about SNICK, which comes out 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.280 of really the vision of Ella Baker, who was the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.440 visionary of SNICK, is that they were committed to this 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.159 notion of grass roots leadership. So they were going to 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.520 communities and they would bring information, they would bring resources. 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.720 Above all, they would be looking for ways to tap 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.840 into the potential of people on the ground. And that's 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.320 exactly what they did in nineteen sixty two when they 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:39.159 showed up Haymer's community in Mississippi. They were there to 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.439 share information, you know, to help with voter registration. They 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.680 were there to talk about the constitution, to make sure 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.359 that they were giving information and empowering local residents. But 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:55.200 they were also trying to you know, really see who 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.800 was there who might be interested in joining the movement, 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:00.960 who could in fact emerge as the lead. And they 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.159 found that in Hamer, as so many others. And so 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.480 Hamer attended a meeting, a mass meeting that was held 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.520 at a church in August nineteen sixty two. As you 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.840 point out, she was forty four years old. According to Hamer, 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.640 is the first time that she learned about her constitutional 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.439 right to vote as a citizen of the United States. 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.800 And I'll always pause when I think of that. It 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.680 certainly helped us see really just the brutality, you know, 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.720 of Jim Crow, because it wasn't just about I mean, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.919 absolutely the violence. We have to talk about that, but 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.120 the one of the other strategies, which isn't surprising when 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.160 you also when you look at you know, the history 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.879 of slavery was the effort to keep information from people, 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.560 to block people from having access to quality education, to 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.560 block people from just knowing what their rights and privileges are, 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.600 you know, as citizens, in order to continue to keep 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.680 them in a system of subjugation. And so Fanny will 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.960 Hammer learned in that meeting about her rights. She learned 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.200 about the reconstruct from amendments. I mean, these were things 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.640 that really I think transformed her. It was a political 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.879 awakening as much as it was a religious awakening, you know. 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:10.919 As I explained, she saw that it was God's calling 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.199 for her to join the movement. You know, it's so 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:19.760 interesting because I think about myself and my own calling 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.280 into activism, and I think that in hindsight, I would 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.520 say that it really is a calling, right, that it 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.919 is that that there is something to the extent that 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:34.959 is divine about recognizing the struggles of other people of 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.080 yourself and wanting to do what it is that you 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.119 can with the talents that you've been provided, you know, 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:44.560 to advance equity. Right, and that is that is what 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.960 I have always seen, you know, and looking at old 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:52.840 images and video of Fanny lew Hamer is just that 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.760 the indignation of it all right, um, which I think 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.600 is extraordinary, um, because we should be indignant in the 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.879 face of injustice, and you know, and talk about the 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.400 fact that until I'm free, no one is free. Right. 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:13.600 Can you talk to also a part of our history 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.720 in this country that we never really delve into, which 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:22.120 is sterilization and the forced sterilization of black and brown 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.760 women and poor women. And we love to say, you know, 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:28.800 this isn't the country I knew. It's one of it's 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:33.760 one of the most frustrating phrases that I think come 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:35.720 out of the mouths of many people. This isn't who 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.119 we are. Every time that we are faced with a 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.359 mirror that shows us the brutality and cruelty that this 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:47.400 country was founded on. Talk to us about that legacy 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:52.400 and why we don't talk about it enough? Wow, so much, 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.840 I could say. In fact, as you were speaking, I 0:24:56.160 --> 0:25:00.120 thought of my own journey and one of the reasons 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.399 that I came to the place where I realized that 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:05.919 I needed to write books and articles that did not 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:10.400 simply speak to you know, the needs and concerns of academics, 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.960 as much as that's important within academia, but I needed 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.200 to make sure that I was writing books that anyone 0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:21.320 you know, could read and really find useful. Was because 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:24.080 of that that very same thing. You know, hearing people 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:29.480 talk about moments in the contemporary context and you know, saying, 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:32.760 this is not who we are. That's shocking. We've never 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:35.320 seen this sort of violence in a black church. For example, 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:37.440 this happened, you know, I think in twenty fifteen with 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:40.399 the Charleston shooting. I can't tell you how many people 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:43.520 were on television saying, oh, this is you know, this 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:45.760 is so different, this is this is not American. You know, 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.840 this does not happen in American history, and you're thinking, really, 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.600 have you read a history book. Lately? Black churches are 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.879 constantly targeted and have been targeted for a long time. 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:59.800 And so back to this point about forsterilizations, it's really 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.159 tracking to me. I think over the last year we've 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:06.080 spoken a little bit about it, and every time it 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.359 comes up in the news, people say exactly that, it's like, oh, 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.160 this is this is so different. We you know, where 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:14.200 where does this actually happen? Well, it happens in the 0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:17.040 United States, and if you pay attention to the experiences, 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:19.960 as you point out a black and brown women, impoverished women, 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:24.480 then you see a longer pattern. It's a brutal you know, 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:26.200 it's a brutal pat I mean, it's a brutal history, 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:29.800 is a traumatic history. You know. Hamer in nineteen sixty one, 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.480 one year before she joined the movement, had been hospitalized 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:37.159 to remove a small uterine tumor. This was a noncancerous tumor. 0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:40.679 There should have been a fairly simple procedure. The white 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:44.760 doctor who performed the procedure I decided to remove Hamer's uterus. 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:50.080 That was traumatic enough, but he didn't even tell her. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.080 He didn't even tell her immediately after. He actually told 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.600 others and Hammer found out about it through the whispering network. 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:00.679 When Hammer found out, she confronts to him and she 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:03.600 demanded an answer, and he did not provide an answer. 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:05.720 And as Hammer pointed out, he didn't have to because 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:09.000 it was not it was not unusual. It was actually 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:12.320 quite common. It was quite common in the hospital where 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:16.080 Hamer had the procedure done. It was quite common in Mississippi. 0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:18.320 It was common throughout the South, and it was happening 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:22.760 across the nation where why doctors were taking it upon 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:29.360 themselves to decide who they considered fit or unfit for reproduction. 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:32.960 And of course, we understand the history of racism, we 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:37.640 understand eugenics, we understand how black women, how a women 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:43.000 of color in particular, and impoverished women are often targeted 0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:47.320 in these contexts. And so Hamer decided to talk about 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:50.439 it as an activist, and to do so because she 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:54.639 realized that a lot of people had no knowledge. You know, 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:58.440 there's a moment where in the book Hamer is giving testimony. 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.520 She's talking at this convention. She's talking about forcedialization. She's 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.600 talking about how this is a pattern there's happening in 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:08.560 the South, and it's happening in her community. And there's 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:12.480 a doctor there from Harvard and he's he's asking her, 0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:16.080 you know, to clarify, because he's not he's not grasping 0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:19.360 what she's saying. He's not even understanding it because to him, 0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:21.640 this doesn't happen in the United States. And she tells 0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:23.119 him and he says, I've never heard of this, and 0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:24.840 she says, well, you don't have to hear about it. 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:28.199 I've experienced it. And so many people who look like 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:30.960 me have experienced it, and I think to this very 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:33.960 day you will find people sort of puzzled, like, oh, 0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:36.880 this is this is interesting? When does this happen? Well, 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:40.000 it happens, and it has happened for a long time 0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:42.720 if you pay attention to the experiences of black and 0:28:42.760 --> 0:28:46.680 brown women and impoverished women in particular. You know, Jeki Plan, 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:49.480 I want to ask you something that just struck me 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:53.280 as you're talking. And you know, I think that the 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:59.240 biggest power, the biggest win of white supremacy in this 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:02.880 country around the world, has been the ability to disrupt 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:06.360 our history. Who we are, where we came from, what 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:10.320 we know, how we learn ourselves. The fact that you 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:14.720 went to school to become a historian didn't learn about 0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:20.440