Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble,
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Speaker 1: The strama tells the story of recently divorce Toby Fleischmann,
Speaker 1: who dies into the world of app bass dating with
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Speaker 1: in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps,
Speaker 1: and welcome to WIKA f Daily with Me Your Girl.
Speaker 1: Danielle Moody pre recording from my Brooklyn Silarium. Folks, Today,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to bring a conversation to you with
Speaker 1: doctor Keisha Blaine. She's an associate professor of history at
Speaker 1: the University of Pittsburgh an author of the book Until
Speaker 1: I Am Free, Fannie lou Hamer's Enduring Message to America.
Speaker 1: I get into a really great conversation with doctor Blaine
Speaker 1: about how important history is, particularly right now, and what
Speaker 1: it means to her to see such a pushback against
Speaker 1: the true history of this country. That she's dedicated her
Speaker 1: professional life to not only studying, but in offering to
Speaker 1: all of us pieces of that history through her work,
Speaker 1: whether it is her writing for MSNBC dot com or
Speaker 1: through her several books that she has. And I think
Speaker 1: about history a lot, because for me, it was one
Speaker 1: of my favorite subjects in school. History, which would then
Speaker 1: turn into government. Into government and politics were always really
Speaker 1: interesting to me. I liked learning about the people that
Speaker 1: came before me, about how they what their role was
Speaker 1: in moving our society forward, or what their role was
Speaker 1: in thwarting progress. I remember my first time going to
Speaker 1: the US capital, and it was my first day working
Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill and I was coming up the Metro
Speaker 1: Capitol South station in Washington, DC. When you come up
Speaker 1: that long escalator ride up the stairs, you look up
Speaker 1: and around you can see the Capitol, which looks like,
Speaker 1: you know, a three D pop up right, like a
Speaker 1: three member those three D books or cards that you
Speaker 1: would get. It looks like that. It almost looks, you know,
Speaker 1: super imposed on the landscape. And then all of these
Speaker 1: huge white, you know, congressional buildings, offices, congressional offices surrounding.
Speaker 1: And I remember coming up those escalators and catching my breath,
Speaker 1: that I could not believe that I was going to
Speaker 1: be walking the same paths as so many of my
Speaker 1: heroes and heroines. And what I think about history now,
Speaker 1: and I particularly, you know, following the insurrection, which I
Speaker 1: remember crying that day, I will be honest with you,
Speaker 1: the day of the insurrection one six. And why was
Speaker 1: I crying? Because these people, that angry white mob ruined
Speaker 1: something that I treasure right, which is our democracy. But
Speaker 1: these buildings, to me, are more than buildings there where
Speaker 1: lives are changed, made better or worse. There where this
Speaker 1: area is where history is made, where speeches that resonate
Speaker 1: are made, where quotes are chiseled into marble. Knowing that
Speaker 1: it was enslaved black people that created all of this, right,
Speaker 1: and having that juxtaposition of emotion where on one hand,
Speaker 1: I am thinking, oh, my goodness, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: a part of history, and I'm going to be a
Speaker 1: part of creating legislation and working on bills, you know,
Speaker 1: and shaping this country for the better. And then on
Speaker 1: the other hand really thinking to myself, oh, dear God,
Speaker 1: this place is filled with the skeletons of people that
Speaker 1: we will never know, We'll never know the names of
Speaker 1: the enslaved African people whose hands and bodies were broken
Speaker 1: so that this country could be formed. It's a really
Speaker 1: interesting place to kind of sit. And in my conversation
Speaker 1: with doctor Kesha Blaine, you know, we both lament about
Speaker 1: who we would be if our history hadn't been robbed
Speaker 1: from us. That there are so many actors, so many
Speaker 1: people important, people like Fanny leu Hamer, who people really
Speaker 1: don't know, which is why doctor Blaine wrote the book.
Speaker 1: She said, as a historian, somebody that went to school
Speaker 1: to become a professional historian, she did not learn about
Speaker 1: Fanny leu Hammer until her senior year of college. And
Speaker 1: so when we talk about this fight against truth, this
Speaker 1: fight against history, it we never really delve into how
Speaker 1: it has been robbed from all of us, not just
Speaker 1: about the whitewashing right. The whitewashing is a purposeful weapon,
Speaker 1: right to weaponize and to demean, right to demean other
Speaker 1: communities and groups, to say that they have had nothing
Speaker 1: to offer, that they are not really Americans. And this
Speaker 1: is why you have angry white Americans these days pointing
Speaker 1: and telling you who is American and who isn't. Because
Speaker 1: it has been indoctrinated, because if they learned who who
Speaker 1: created the cotton gin, who created the light filament, who
Speaker 1: created the stop light, who created the hair press, who
Speaker 1: created this, that and the other thing, Then if that
Speaker 1: had been taught as a part of their history, not
Speaker 1: just during Black History Month, but had been a part
Speaker 1: of how they learned history, do you think that we
Speaker 1: would be in this tormented, hate filled place that we
Speaker 1: are now. I don't think so. And that is purposeful
Speaker 1: because I've said this before. If you can profit off
Speaker 1: of hate, and if hate and fear are easier to
Speaker 1: sell than hope, and you're a snake oil salesman like Trump,
Speaker 1: like a Tucker Carlson, like the late piece of shit
Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh, if you are going to be like the Rogan,
Speaker 1: you know, like, if you are going to be that
Speaker 1: person who is going to capitalize on misery, then it
Speaker 1: works for you to maintain that lie. And how do
Speaker 1: you do that through education. That's why I say that
Speaker 1: education is one of the biggest ways that we keep
Speaker 1: white supremacy going. Just look through your child's history book.
Speaker 1: There is no mention of the contributions of really anybody
Speaker 1: outside of white men. So why then do you think
Speaker 1: that white men are the only ones that are ever
Speaker 1: in power, are allowed to have power. Why do you
Speaker 1: think that these people walk around and they get to
Speaker 1: tell you or ask you where are you from? Where
Speaker 1: did you come from? If you are not white? Because
Speaker 1: our contributions, the myriad of contributions that are made by
Speaker 1: black people, Brown people, Asian, Pacific Islanders, everybody, Latin X people,
Speaker 1: Native Americans who we completely dismiss altogether contributed to the
Speaker 1: story of America. But as I have often said, history
Speaker 1: is told by the conqueror, not the conquered. That's what
Speaker 1: the cricket player said. History is told by the conqueror,
Speaker 1: not the conquered. But we have an opportunity because we
Speaker 1: are conscious to the fuckory now. We are all aware
Speaker 1: about the gaslight and how deep it goes because we
Speaker 1: are watching it play out right now. We wondered, how
Speaker 1: did people think about, you know, think you think about
Speaker 1: back in the day when we were when we were
Speaker 1: burning women at the state right, because any woman that
Speaker 1: had an opinion of thought leadership was considered a witch. Right,
Speaker 1: how is it that we think that we have grown
Speaker 1: when those same people who would have burned women at
Speaker 1: the stake right, are the same people that are burning books,
Speaker 1: are the same people that are telling women that you
Speaker 1: can't have control over your bodies? Right. We haven't grown, really,
Speaker 1: We just the tactics of oppression have just changed with
Speaker 1: time and technology. And I think that the reason why
Speaker 1: it continues is because we don't know our history. We
Speaker 1: take these isolated incidents that the powers that be want
Speaker 1: to tell us right how to move, how they are,
Speaker 1: but we don't really ask questions because you see, we
Speaker 1: don't teach in a way that we want people to
Speaker 1: ask questions. We want to deposit information. We don't want
Speaker 1: to teach critical thinking. And that makes sense given the
Speaker 1: fact that we just initially wanted people to be on
Speaker 1: lines at factories. You put in this widget thing, the
Speaker 1: person next to you puts in their widget thing, and
Speaker 1: there was really no interrogation of the process. Right. You
Speaker 1: never even saw probably the end result. You just looked
Speaker 1: at your piece. H there's no real critical thought. The
Speaker 1: world has changed rapidly, and we would do a service
Speaker 1: to each other if we actually asked more questions, if
Speaker 1: we knew the truth. And so I'm so excited for
Speaker 1: you all to hear the conversation with doctor Kesha Blaine,
Speaker 1: Because one, there are some very horrific things that have
Speaker 1: happened in this country, that continue to happen in this country,
Speaker 1: And I believe that we are in the midst of
Speaker 1: an extraordinary and extraordinarily dangerous breakthrough. They don't call them
Speaker 1: growing pains for no reason. Growth is painful. Breakthroughs are painful.
Speaker 1: So are breakdowns. I believe that both of these things
Speaker 1: are happening right now. We have an opportunity. Who do
Speaker 1: we want to be? What do we want the next
Speaker 1: chapters of our story of America's story to be the
Speaker 1: continued perpetuation of the lies, or an opportunity to reimagine
Speaker 1: the story not through the perception the prism of the conqueror,
Speaker 1: but through those that have been conquered, through those who
Speaker 1: have been invisibilized. What would that American history book look like?
Speaker 1: What would that story be? You know, in societies that
Speaker 1: are on the brink, a couple of things happen. You
Speaker 1: begin to use the media as a tool for propaganda.
Speaker 1: You spread lies, you discredit truth, scientist academics facts. Do
Speaker 1: you wear people out emotionally with anxiety, fear of loss,
Speaker 1: which creates tribalism, and then you go in for the kill.
Speaker 1: We're in Act three right now, and I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure how the play is going to end. I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure it's not a comedy. I'm pretty sure it's not
Speaker 1: even a dramedy at this point. But there is opportunity
Speaker 1: in the obstacles that we are being presented with. How
Speaker 1: this story ends, I think is going to be up
Speaker 1: to every single one of us. We will see coming
Speaker 1: up next, friends, is my conversation with doctor Kesha Blaine,
Speaker 1: the author of Until I Am Free, Fanny lu Hamer's
Speaker 1: Enduring Message to America. And then the reality is is
Speaker 1: that until all of us are free, none of us,
Speaker 1: none of us are free, folks. I am very excited
Speaker 1: to welcome to woke f for the very first time,
Speaker 1: doctor Kesha Blaine, who's Associate professor of history at the
Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh, also an MSNBC columnists and the author
Speaker 1: of Until I Am Free, Fanny lu Hamer's Enduring Message
Speaker 1: to America. Doctor Kesha Blaine, let me first start off
Speaker 1: with saying that one of the things that I've always
Speaker 1: troubled me in my life is how little I know
Speaker 1: about some of the most extraordinary and exceptional black activists
Speaker 1: that are responsible frankly for the work that I do,
Speaker 1: for me even being able to be here and speak
Speaker 1: out on behalf of injustice. Fanny lu Hamer is one
Speaker 1: of those people who, while the name may roll off
Speaker 1: the tongue, the real understanding of what she endured right,
Speaker 1: how she became an activist and why is something that
Speaker 1: you explore in this book. And I want to ask you,
Speaker 1: you know again, from my vantage point, this type of
Speaker 1: history is necessary because it's been purposefully white, It's been
Speaker 1: purposefully whitewashed and denied right from our quote unquote mainstream education.
Speaker 1: We're watching this happen right now with the pushback and
Speaker 1: the white lash against critical race theory, which isn't even
Speaker 1: taught in K three twelve. But nonetheless, what compelled you
Speaker 1: at this particular time to really delve into Fanny Luhimer's life? Wow,
Speaker 1: so many factors, And you know, listening to you made
Speaker 1: me think about my own experience because it was not
Speaker 1: until senior year of college that I even found out
Speaker 1: about Fanny Luhimer. And I was majoring in history and
Speaker 1: afrikan of Studies. I was taking courses particularly on the
Speaker 1: black experience, but it still took me some time to
Speaker 1: get to her, and I think this is true for
Speaker 1: most people. One of the reasons why I wanted to
Speaker 1: write this book in this particular moment was not only
Speaker 1: to introduce people to Fanny Luhimer, but more sort of
Speaker 1: to get people to start thinking about how Fanny Luhimer's ideas,
Speaker 1: how her political strategies, how her activism could in fact
Speaker 1: provide a model for us. I think there was a
Speaker 1: particular moment where, you know, I was just sitting and
Speaker 1: reflecting on everything that was going on, and this was
Speaker 1: in the context of the Trump presidency. This was also
Speaker 1: the context of the uprisings that were taking place across
Speaker 1: the nation and also globally, and I think so many,
Speaker 1: like so many people, I felt discouraged. I was frustrated
Speaker 1: because I said to myself, we are constantly it seems
Speaker 1: like we're fighting the same battles over and over again.
Speaker 1: It seems like we're not making as much progress as
Speaker 1: we think we're making, or even when we do make progress,
Speaker 1: we're making steps backwards. And so for me, it was
Speaker 1: about centering Fannie Wiheimer's voice and her words, which always
Speaker 1: inspired me and I returned to Hammer, particularly during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: during the uprisings, uh, you know, reading more about her,
Speaker 1: you know, reading her speeches again, and I felt it
Speaker 1: was necessary to bring the story to a large republic,
Speaker 1: um that I believe needed to hear humorous voice, not
Speaker 1: only to find inspiration, but particularly to find political strategy
Speaker 1: and to figure out how we could make this nation
Speaker 1: better and certainly this world better. You know. One of
Speaker 1: the things that strikes me in your book and in
Speaker 1: the in the Discovery is that sanny Lu did not
Speaker 1: become an activist until in her mid forties. Um. Can
Speaker 1: you speak to that, because you know, many folks when
Speaker 1: we think about activism, right, we think about marches and
Speaker 1: young people, um, you know, getting um engaged in our
Speaker 1: in our teens. Right. And and for some people, again,
Speaker 1: there are different moments, there are different catalysts. And for sure,
Speaker 1: you know, during twenty twenty, when there was just so
Speaker 1: much horrific racial injustice that was transpiring. I mean, right
Speaker 1: now we're watching the Kyle Rittenhouse case. Right now we're
Speaker 1: watching you know, the murder trial of the men that
Speaker 1: killed Ahmad Aubrey in cold blood, all of this having
Speaker 1: transpired over twenty twenty sparked activism in people that hadn't
Speaker 1: been before. What was the spark or sparks for Fanny
Speaker 1: leu Hamer at the age as you say at a
Speaker 1: forty four, Well, there are so many factors, you know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I emphasize in the book
Speaker 1: that I think is so important to think about is
Speaker 1: the crucial work of the Student Non Violence Coordinating Committee.
Speaker 1: So this is an organization that we referred to as SMIKE.
Speaker 1: And what is so interesting about this is I think
Speaker 1: most people are pretty familiar with many of the activisms
Speaker 1: in SMIKE. We're talking about folks like John Lewis, Bob Moses,
Speaker 1: and you know, as you point out, many of the
Speaker 1: activists who are involved were quite young. SNICK as an
Speaker 1: organization had been established on a college campus that many
Speaker 1: of those who were leaders in the movement were in
Speaker 1: their early twenties when they got involved. But one of
Speaker 1: the things that's so valuable about SNICK, which comes out
Speaker 1: of really the vision of Ella Baker, who was the
Speaker 1: visionary of SNICK, is that they were committed to this
Speaker 1: notion of grass roots leadership. So they were going to
Speaker 1: communities and they would bring information, they would bring resources.
Speaker 1: Above all, they would be looking for ways to tap
Speaker 1: into the potential of people on the ground. And that's
Speaker 1: exactly what they did in nineteen sixty two when they
Speaker 1: showed up Haymer's community in Mississippi. They were there to
Speaker 1: share information, you know, to help with voter registration. They
Speaker 1: were there to talk about the constitution, to make sure
Speaker 1: that they were giving information and empowering local residents. But
Speaker 1: they were also trying to you know, really see who
Speaker 1: was there who might be interested in joining the movement,
Speaker 1: who could in fact emerge as the lead. And they
Speaker 1: found that in Hamer, as so many others. And so
Speaker 1: Hamer attended a meeting, a mass meeting that was held
Speaker 1: at a church in August nineteen sixty two. As you
Speaker 1: point out, she was forty four years old. According to Hamer,
Speaker 1: is the first time that she learned about her constitutional
Speaker 1: right to vote as a citizen of the United States.
Speaker 1: And I'll always pause when I think of that. It
Speaker 1: certainly helped us see really just the brutality, you know,
Speaker 1: of Jim Crow, because it wasn't just about I mean,
Speaker 1: absolutely the violence. We have to talk about that, but
Speaker 1: the one of the other strategies, which isn't surprising when
Speaker 1: you also when you look at you know, the history
Speaker 1: of slavery was the effort to keep information from people,
Speaker 1: to block people from having access to quality education, to
Speaker 1: block people from just knowing what their rights and privileges are,
Speaker 1: you know, as citizens, in order to continue to keep
Speaker 1: them in a system of subjugation. And so Fanny will
Speaker 1: Hammer learned in that meeting about her rights. She learned
Speaker 1: about the reconstruct from amendments. I mean, these were things
Speaker 1: that really I think transformed her. It was a political
Speaker 1: awakening as much as it was a religious awakening, you know.
Speaker 1: As I explained, she saw that it was God's calling
Speaker 1: for her to join the movement. You know, it's so
Speaker 1: interesting because I think about myself and my own calling
Speaker 1: into activism, and I think that in hindsight, I would
Speaker 1: say that it really is a calling, right, that it
Speaker 1: is that that there is something to the extent that
Speaker 1: is divine about recognizing the struggles of other people of
Speaker 1: yourself and wanting to do what it is that you
Speaker 1: can with the talents that you've been provided, you know,
Speaker 1: to advance equity. Right, and that is that is what
Speaker 1: I have always seen, you know, and looking at old
Speaker 1: images and video of Fanny lew Hamer is just that
Speaker 1: the indignation of it all right, um, which I think
Speaker 1: is extraordinary, um, because we should be indignant in the
Speaker 1: face of injustice, and you know, and talk about the
Speaker 1: fact that until I'm free, no one is free. Right.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to also a part of our history
Speaker 1: in this country that we never really delve into, which
Speaker 1: is sterilization and the forced sterilization of black and brown
Speaker 1: women and poor women. And we love to say, you know,
Speaker 1: this isn't the country I knew. It's one of it's
Speaker 1: one of the most frustrating phrases that I think come
Speaker 1: out of the mouths of many people. This isn't who
Speaker 1: we are. Every time that we are faced with a
Speaker 1: mirror that shows us the brutality and cruelty that this
Speaker 1: country was founded on. Talk to us about that legacy
Speaker 1: and why we don't talk about it enough? Wow, so much,
Speaker 1: I could say. In fact, as you were speaking, I
Speaker 1: thought of my own journey and one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that I came to the place where I realized that
Speaker 1: I needed to write books and articles that did not
Speaker 1: simply speak to you know, the needs and concerns of academics,
Speaker 1: as much as that's important within academia, but I needed
Speaker 1: to make sure that I was writing books that anyone
Speaker 1: you know, could read and really find useful. Was because
Speaker 1: of that that very same thing. You know, hearing people
Speaker 1: talk about moments in the contemporary context and you know, saying,
Speaker 1: this is not who we are. That's shocking. We've never
Speaker 1: seen this sort of violence in a black church. For example,
Speaker 1: this happened, you know, I think in twenty fifteen with
Speaker 1: the Charleston shooting. I can't tell you how many people
Speaker 1: were on television saying, oh, this is you know, this
Speaker 1: is so different, this is this is not American. You know,
Speaker 1: this does not happen in American history, and you're thinking, really,
Speaker 1: have you read a history book. Lately? Black churches are
Speaker 1: constantly targeted and have been targeted for a long time.
Speaker 1: And so back to this point about forsterilizations, it's really
Speaker 1: tracking to me. I think over the last year we've
Speaker 1: spoken a little bit about it, and every time it
Speaker 1: comes up in the news, people say exactly that, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is this is so different. We you know, where
Speaker 1: where does this actually happen? Well, it happens in the
Speaker 1: United States, and if you pay attention to the experiences,
Speaker 1: as you point out a black and brown women, impoverished women,
Speaker 1: then you see a longer pattern. It's a brutal you know,
Speaker 1: it's a brutal pat I mean, it's a brutal history,
Speaker 1: is a traumatic history. You know. Hamer in nineteen sixty one,
Speaker 1: one year before she joined the movement, had been hospitalized
Speaker 1: to remove a small uterine tumor. This was a noncancerous tumor.
Speaker 1: There should have been a fairly simple procedure. The white
Speaker 1: doctor who performed the procedure I decided to remove Hamer's uterus.
Speaker 1: That was traumatic enough, but he didn't even tell her.
Speaker 1: He didn't even tell her immediately after. He actually told
Speaker 1: others and Hammer found out about it through the whispering network.
Speaker 1: When Hammer found out, she confronts to him and she
Speaker 1: demanded an answer, and he did not provide an answer.
Speaker 1: And as Hammer pointed out, he didn't have to because
Speaker 1: it was not it was not unusual. It was actually
Speaker 1: quite common. It was quite common in the hospital where
Speaker 1: Hamer had the procedure done. It was quite common in Mississippi.
Speaker 1: It was common throughout the South, and it was happening
Speaker 1: across the nation where why doctors were taking it upon
Speaker 1: themselves to decide who they considered fit or unfit for reproduction.
Speaker 1: And of course, we understand the history of racism, we
Speaker 1: understand eugenics, we understand how black women, how a women
Speaker 1: of color in particular, and impoverished women are often targeted
Speaker 1: in these contexts. And so Hamer decided to talk about
Speaker 1: it as an activist, and to do so because she
Speaker 1: realized that a lot of people had no knowledge. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a moment where in the book Hamer is giving testimony.
Speaker 1: She's talking at this convention. She's talking about forcedialization. She's
Speaker 1: talking about how this is a pattern there's happening in
Speaker 1: the South, and it's happening in her community. And there's
Speaker 1: a doctor there from Harvard and he's he's asking her,
Speaker 1: you know, to clarify, because he's not he's not grasping
Speaker 1: what she's saying. He's not even understanding it because to him,
Speaker 1: this doesn't happen in the United States. And she tells
Speaker 1: him and he says, I've never heard of this, and
Speaker 1: she says, well, you don't have to hear about it.
Speaker 1: I've experienced it. And so many people who look like
Speaker 1: me have experienced it, and I think to this very
Speaker 1: day you will find people sort of puzzled, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is this is interesting? When does this happen? Well,
Speaker 1: it happens, and it has happened for a long time
Speaker 1: if you pay attention to the experiences of black and
Speaker 1: brown women and impoverished women in particular. You know, Jeki Plan,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you something that just struck me
Speaker 1: as you're talking. And you know, I think that the
Speaker 1: biggest power, the biggest win of white supremacy in this
Speaker 1: country around the world, has been the ability to disrupt
Speaker 1: our history. Who we are, where we came from, what
Speaker 1: we know, how we learn ourselves. The fact that you
Speaker 1: went to school to become a historian didn't learn about
Speaker 1: Fanny leu Hamer until your senior year in university. I
Speaker 1: also wasn't introduced to many different figures that should be
Speaker 1: names that we just know until college and after college,
Speaker 1: and in still discovering people like Paulie Murray, who I
Speaker 1: just learned about recently, right through the documentary that is
Speaker 1: out now. What are your concerns about the conversations that
Speaker 1: we are having right now, the debate about what kids learn,
Speaker 1: particularly white children because we don't care what black and
Speaker 1: brown children learn. What are your concerns about this countries
Speaker 1: relationship to history, relationship to its history, and the direction
Speaker 1: that we are moving in right now. Well, I think
Speaker 1: what is so disheartening at this particular moment is that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many people who have convinced themselves
Speaker 1: quite frankly, I don't know how else to explain, and
Speaker 1: have convinced themselves that somehow, if we teach the history
Speaker 1: and its fullest sense, if we talk about the experiences
Speaker 1: of marginalized groups in this country, that somehow is going
Speaker 1: to cause division. And there's this bizarre notion that division
Speaker 1: happens because people learn the history and because people know
Speaker 1: exactly what led us to this particular moment. The irony
Speaker 1: is that the nation has already divided. It has been divided,
Speaker 1: and in fact, if you've paid attention to the history
Speaker 1: and you learned the history, you would know why it
Speaker 1: has been divided. And part of I think what is
Speaker 1: sad about all these conversations, you know, as you point
Speaker 1: out for critical race theory, you know, I remember the
Speaker 1: first time I heard the discussion. I think I might
Speaker 1: have put on the television I heard someone talking about
Speaker 1: critical race theory. I stopped and I thought, are they're
Speaker 1: talking about critical race theory. That's odd. Who's talking about
Speaker 1: critical race theory? You know, I have a PhD in history.
Speaker 1: I didn't learn critical race theory. I know my friends
Speaker 1: in law school do, but that's not something that I was,
Speaker 1: you know, taught in any class. I certainly read it,
Speaker 1: you know, critical race theory when I had an opportunity
Speaker 1: to do so, but that was on my own. This
Speaker 1: was not some sort of common practice, and I heard
Speaker 1: people talking about it as if it was something you know,
Speaker 1: common day. Everyone was talking about critical race theory, and
Speaker 1: of course, you know, within ten minutes I realized, Oh,
Speaker 1: they don't know what critical race theory is. They think
Speaker 1: that means that whenever you talk about black history, you know,
Speaker 1: that's critical race theory, you know. And so it's I
Speaker 1: think it's so strange that at the very same moment
Speaker 1: that there's a lack of knowledge, as a lack of
Speaker 1: knowledge of the history in particular. Here I am pushing,
Speaker 1: as so many others, trying to get this history out
Speaker 1: into the world, at the very same moment people saying, no,
Speaker 1: don't teach these things. Don't teach these things because it's
Speaker 1: going to cause problems in our schools. And I think
Speaker 1: that's disheartening because I, you know, I teach courses at
Speaker 1: the college level. I'm mostly teach students you know, who
Speaker 1: are white. You know, I you know, I'm always happy
Speaker 1: to teach students from any background, but but I teach
Speaker 1: at the predominant white institution. Most of my students are white,
Speaker 1: and most of my students walk into the classroom with
Speaker 1: very little knowledge of even topics like the Civil Rights movement.
Speaker 1: They know Martin Kicking Junior, they know Rosa Parks, and
Speaker 1: then I mentioned Fan Luhimer and everyone stunned, right, And
Speaker 1: I talk about Ella Baker and never heard of her.
Speaker 1: And so I'm glad that they're taking my courses. And
Speaker 1: many of them have chosen to be there because they
Speaker 1: just want to learn. But the fact is that most
Speaker 1: people could in fact obtain a college degree, they could
Speaker 1: go on to law school, they could go on to
Speaker 1: med school and not have even heard, you know about
Speaker 1: Henrietta Lacks, for example, how many doctors you know learned
Speaker 1: about Henrietta Lacks just recently. What does that tell you
Speaker 1: about the history, and and and that is dangerous, and
Speaker 1: you know, when you don't even know the history of
Speaker 1: medical racism and how you know, people's lives have been
Speaker 1: shaped by by all of these developments. And so I
Speaker 1: just think it's so I think important in this moment
Speaker 1: to push against all of these efforts to restrict you know, um,
Speaker 1: the information that I think is so vital in knowing
Speaker 1: the history of black people, in knowing the history of
Speaker 1: every marginalized group in the United States. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: you know, you realize that it isn't none of these
Speaker 1: things are done by accident. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: even the word disheartening doesn't you know, doesn't really fully
Speaker 1: grasp what it means to know that we've been gas
Speaker 1: lit our whole lives, right, and that the intention behind
Speaker 1: that is to uphold a system of oppression that creates
Speaker 1: a invisibilized cast system in this country, because we don't
Speaker 1: readily articulate that we have a cast system, but we
Speaker 1: have all of the confines and the policies that say otherwise, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, and I just find you know, for
Speaker 1: people like yourself or academics like yourself, that do you
Speaker 1: feel attacked in this day and age. Do you feel
Speaker 1: do do you feel do you feel more I don't
Speaker 1: want to put feelings in your mouth, but you know,
Speaker 1: do you feel more guarded, more attack, more on edge?
Speaker 1: As an academic in this particular discipline of history and
Speaker 1: American history at that of the twenty of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1: What what are your feelings and the feelings of your
Speaker 1: colleagues in the field. It's not easy. And I have been, um,
Speaker 1: you know, writing I think just certainly been writing books,
Speaker 1: been writing opeds. Been You've been writing about these topics, uh,
Speaker 1: for for some time. I think a lot has shifted.
Speaker 1: You know. When I write about black history, now, um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter, you know how controversial the topic.
Speaker 1: I mean, it appears that as soon as I even
Speaker 1: talk about black people at all, I will get hate
Speaker 1: mail with it, you know. And I sometimes chuckle that
Speaker 1: I know when my opeds have have been released, because
Speaker 1: you know, like clockwork, the emails come in, the nasty
Speaker 1: comments come in. Um, And I'm thinking to myself, people
Speaker 1: are angry why because I am telling the history. I'm
Speaker 1: not making up stories. I you know, I'm giving you
Speaker 1: the facts. And all you have to do is be
Speaker 1: open to learning you know, click the links, read the books,
Speaker 1: and you see that this is not made up. This
Speaker 1: is a reality. When I talk about racial wealth gap,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, you know about history. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: telling you about slavery. I'm telling you about Jim Crow.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you about all of these systems that were
Speaker 1: in place that ultimately contributed to this wide divide. And
Speaker 1: you have to know that. You know, how do you
Speaker 1: address economic inequality if you don't know the history. And
Speaker 1: so there is so much resistance I think in this
Speaker 1: particular moment, and so of course folks like me are
Speaker 1: easily targeted and attacked by others who don't want these
Speaker 1: narratives told. And you know, part of what I have
Speaker 1: to do is pushed that aside and keep pushing. I mean,
Speaker 1: quite frankly, I have to draw inspiration from folks like
Speaker 1: I to b Wells. I have the draw inspiration from
Speaker 1: folks like Fanny Lue Hammer, Annie who Hammer could have
Speaker 1: walked away a long time, you know, I mean quite frankly.
Speaker 1: You know, there are days when I say to myself,
Speaker 1: how did Hammer keep going? I mean, people came after her,
Speaker 1: you know, people tried to take her life. Why because
Speaker 1: she was trying to encourage people to exercise the right
Speaker 1: to vote as a citizen of the United States. That
Speaker 1: was the crime that she committed, and she had to
Speaker 1: look over her shoulder, and she had to be constantly
Speaker 1: you know, you know, targeted, because she just wanted to
Speaker 1: play a part in building this inclusive democracy that we
Speaker 1: say we are committed to according to the ideals of
Speaker 1: the Constitution. Right And so you know, that to me
Speaker 1: is a reminder that what I'm going through, what so
Speaker 1: many others are going through, it's not new. It's really
Speaker 1: part of the process, and quite frankly, it's part of
Speaker 1: being black in the United States. And so as troubling
Speaker 1: as it is to see, you know, a shift that
Speaker 1: I think in the in the general sort of you
Speaker 1: know atmosphere, it's also not surprising to me. You know,
Speaker 1: as a historian, you have such a deep and wide
Speaker 1: perspective of America, and I often find myself getting really
Speaker 1: upset and saying things like nothing has changed, and you know,
Speaker 1: everything is still the same. If if if a black man,
Speaker 1: we can watch his murder happen, right eight minutes in
Speaker 1: forty you know, seven seconds, and nothing changes, right still,
Speaker 1: no law, right still still know nothing. We watch black
Speaker 1: people get cornered, shot down, you know, strangled, murder, I say,
Speaker 1: nothing has changed. As a historian, how do you put
Speaker 1: spin perspective on where you think America is in its
Speaker 1: growth towards actualizing its values and creed that it's it
Speaker 1: purports around the world, but we don't necessarily feel it
Speaker 1: here as black people. Well, there are several things that
Speaker 1: come to mind. One of the things that I often
Speaker 1: reflect on, which in a way I think we have
Speaker 1: experienced it just in the last couple of months, over
Speaker 1: the last year. But I find strange about and I'll
Speaker 1: say strange, you know, about American history or even just
Speaker 1: the way people respond. There is always a tendency to,
Speaker 1: you know, recognize the problem, then come up with some strategy,
Speaker 1: you know, and maybe that is the passenger for law.
Speaker 1: And so here I'm thinking about, you know, which I
Speaker 1: think is probably the best example, the Voting Rights Act.
Speaker 1: So you have the Voting Rights Act, which is past
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty five. This is absolutely a pivotal moment.
Speaker 1: It's one that people celebrated as they should have celebrat.
Speaker 1: It opened up the doors for so many people who
Speaker 1: could not cast a ballot and it finally cracked the
Speaker 1: door open. But what is interesting is that when when
Speaker 1: the door cracked open, a lot of people sort of
Speaker 1: stepped back and sit and said, Wow, this is wonderful.
Speaker 1: We've accomplished what we set out to accomplish. Now we're fine.
Speaker 1: And guess what, we realized that we're not fine. You know,
Speaker 1: for so many people, it took either Shelby Decision of twenty,
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen to realize that we're not fine. But
Speaker 1: the reality is that the Voting Rights Act has been
Speaker 1: on their attack for as long as it's been around.
Speaker 1: And so what's interesting about American history is every time
Speaker 1: there is a particular gain or win, we know the
Speaker 1: backlash is coming, and we know that people are going
Speaker 1: to try to pull back in terms of what had
Speaker 1: been accomplished. And yet we somehow don't realize that we
Speaker 1: cannot rest right. We somehow imagine that we can celebrate
Speaker 1: and and and and sit down. And so here we
Speaker 1: find ourselves constantly in this, you know cycle, because we
Speaker 1: see these moments and we celebrate and then we say, aha,
Speaker 1: we've achieved it. We're done. Instead of saying, aha, we've
Speaker 1: achieved it, let's make sure, we keep fighting to protect
Speaker 1: that right. Let's not give up, because in fact, every
Speaker 1: time there is a win, there will be an attempt
Speaker 1: to roll back right, all of them, you know. So
Speaker 1: it's just I mean, so this is what I find
Speaker 1: so intriguing. And um, I think you know, have we
Speaker 1: made progress? Yes, we could talk about the ways we've
Speaker 1: made progress. But the irony is every time we have
Speaker 1: made progress, we've also taken steps backwards, right, And and
Speaker 1: that's partly why I think when it comes to activism,
Speaker 1: people don't like to hear this because you you know,
Speaker 1: you want to be involved in the struggle where you
Speaker 1: can see ahead of you that things are going to change.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be part of a struggle where
Speaker 1: maybe you actually won't witness to change. Maybe it's not
Speaker 1: until maybe your children will see it, maybe your children's
Speaker 1: children will see it. Right, if we accept that this is,
Speaker 1: I mean that we have to be in this for
Speaker 1: the long haul. Listen, you're going to march on the streets,
Speaker 1: You're going to make demands. Folks are going to laugh
Speaker 1: in your face, and you've got to go back into
Speaker 1: the streets and make demands and they'll laugh again. And
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to go back into the streets.
Speaker 1: You see what I'm going with this. You have to
Speaker 1: keep pushing and pushing and pushing exactly. And you can't
Speaker 1: just say, oh, well, you know, people aren't listening or
Speaker 1: it didn't work out, so we failed, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean I think even recently, I know, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of debate, a lot of critique about like defund
Speaker 1: the police. And I've heard people you're saying, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: this is you know, it didn't work and it caused
Speaker 1: people to get angry. And and I say, but take
Speaker 1: a look at the stats. You know. For me, when
Speaker 1: I see that, you know, seven percent and voted against
Speaker 1: you know, changes that could have, you know, ultimately moved
Speaker 1: us closer to reallocating funds from a police department to
Speaker 1: actually opening up social services in a community. I see
Speaker 1: that as a step closer. Why because I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: probably ten years before, I think a lot more people
Speaker 1: would have resisted that idea. The fact that you actually
Speaker 1: have people willing to vote and say, okay, we can
Speaker 1: support this. Granted, yes, the majority opinion challenged it, but
Speaker 1: that's not the point. The point is that things are shifting.
Speaker 1: People are getting upset, but others are listening and others
Speaker 1: are being transformed. Right, this is a long haul. This
Speaker 1: is not a quick thing. It's a long haul. And
Speaker 1: so that's I think the way to view American history
Speaker 1: is to understand. You know, when Fanny Luhamer in nine
Speaker 1: sixty four stood up at the Democratic National Convention, she
Speaker 1: did not know she could not have foreseen the passage
Speaker 1: of a voting rights act a year later. She didn't
Speaker 1: have a crystal ball. She walked away feeling really discouraged
Speaker 1: and feeling that she had failed. She didn't fail, but
Speaker 1: she didn't know it then, right. So if we take
Speaker 1: that perspective, I think it will change a lot of
Speaker 1: how we approach political activism, and we'll stop often looking
Speaker 1: for the quick answer that quite frankly, may not come.
Speaker 1: My last question for you, and I have enjoyed this
Speaker 1: conversation so much, My last question for you is this,
Speaker 1: you know, learning more about America and uncovering so many ills, right,
Speaker 1: so many devastating things that have been done in this
Speaker 1: country's name, right and hidden? Right? How do you maintain
Speaker 1: a level of appreciation and like hopefulness for this country
Speaker 1: when your work is too on earth? All of the
Speaker 1: things that were purposefully hidden, the cruelty, the trauma, the tragedies.
Speaker 1: How do you stay hopeful about who we are as
Speaker 1: a nation and where we're going? You know, I believe
Speaker 1: that it's my life's calling, and in fact, it takes
Speaker 1: me right back to why I wrote this book until
Speaker 1: I'm free. Once I encountered Hammer and I saw how
Speaker 1: this disabled black woman from Mississippi with a sixth grade education,
Speaker 1: with limited financial resources could use her voice and could
Speaker 1: stand up in the face of injustice and make a difference.
Speaker 1: I stopped making excuses for myself. I stopped focusing on
Speaker 1: what I didn't have, and I started to focus on
Speaker 1: what I did have. And I believe that what I
Speaker 1: have is a gift as a writer and as a researcher,
Speaker 1: and so I set out to become a professional historian
Speaker 1: to uncover those stories. I am committed to telling the
Speaker 1: stories of people who look like me, you know, and
Speaker 1: so I you know, I just I'm very clear about
Speaker 1: why I've devoted my life to this because learning that
Speaker 1: history transformed me, and I know it's going to transform
Speaker 1: someone else, and so that keeps me going. It keeps
Speaker 1: me hopeful because I believe that every book that I
Speaker 1: write could cost someone to change their perspective. It could
Speaker 1: cost someone to open up their eyes to the reality
Speaker 1: around them. It could it could compel someone to be
Speaker 1: part of the effort to make this nation better. And
Speaker 1: if I've done that, quite frankly, you know I've accomplished
Speaker 1: everything then that I set out to accomplish. Takeisha Blaine,
Speaker 1: The book is Until I Am Free. Fanny lu Hamer's
Speaker 1: enduring message to America. I can't thank you enough for
Speaker 1: making the time to join woke f And I can't
Speaker 1: thank you enough for your work, your words, and your
Speaker 1: continued effort to make us all conscious to who this
Speaker 1: country is and who we have the ability to be.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you, Thank you so much. That is it
Speaker 1: for me today. Here, Folks on woke f as always
Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power.
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.