WEBVTT - Do Personality Tests Work? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.160 I guess what will? What's that mango? So I was 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:04.600 listening to the Harry Potter audio books with my kids 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:08.200 and reliving how much I love those stories. But do 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.319 you know what scenes still gives me anxiety all these 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.880 years later. It's when Harry sits under the sorting hat. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:16.840 So there are I don't know what seven or eight 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.239 battle scenes with Voldemart, and it's the sorting hat that 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.959 makes you anxious. It is, I mean, to me, there's 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.239 something so palpable about his anxiety and that sorting hat scene, 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:30.040 like this dumb, fidgety hat determines your fate in front 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.760 of your whole school, and Harry is so nervous about it, 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.239 like he's sitting there, sweating, desperately trying to outthink this 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.479 test and trying to convince a dumb hat that he 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.760 should be sorted into Griffin Door instead of Slytherin. And 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:45.800 it's not like you're gonna apply for a transfer from 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.240 one house to another, like once you're in your sorted 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.720 for life. But what's terrifying to me is that your 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.000 destiny is all wrapped up in that single moment, which 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.640 I mean, I love to organize people using the sorting 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.240 hat system, Like my dad is very clearly a raven claw, 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.480 my mom's a huffle poff, my sister is obviously a Slytherin, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.560 totally a sin. But as I started to think about 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.520 it more, I realized why I feel that anxiety, and 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.560 it's from taking aptitude tests as a kid. Like in 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.080 sixth grade, my whole class was forced to take a 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.119 test that was supposed to give us a better sense 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.800 of what careers we should pursue. But as I was 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.360 taking it, I actually remember thinking, well, if I answered 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.399 this question this way, does that mean I can't be 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.520 a mechanical engineer or would this answer stop me from 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.560 being a teacher? Like I wanted options. I didn't want 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.800 to be boxed in by an exam, But revisiting that 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.440 experience through the Harry Potter sorting hat made me wonder 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.280 how accurate our personality tests then, how much stock should 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.760 we put in them? And is my sister really a Slytherin? 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.400 Because she sure seems Slytherin to me. So that's what 0:01:47.480 --> 0:02:12.000 this episode is all about. Right, Welcome to Part Time Genius. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.040 I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.680 good friend Man Gueshot Ticketer, and today we're going to 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.320 talk about personality tests and whether they really work. But 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.000 before we do that, I'm just gonna place this marshmallow 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.880 right here, Mango, right here in the middle of the table. Come. 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:29.880 You know you're trolling me, And if you don't eat 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.120 it for fifteen minutes, there might just be another marshmallow 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.400 for you. Here it is. You know how much I 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.040 hate the marshmallow self control experiment? I do, but I 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.639 don't really understand. Why. Is it because you hate marshmallows? No, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.400 it's it's because I don't understand how it can be 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.280 a good test. Like people always talk about how a 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.519 kid who has self control is going to be successful, 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.640 And I get how if someone tells a kid to 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.480 sit and behave and not eat the marshmallow and they 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.440 wait and delay their gratification, that it may be an 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.480 indicator of a successful future for a certain type of kids. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.240 But what if that kid comes from a rough background, 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.959 what if there isn't food security in his or her home, 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:07.919 or what if they come from a home where the 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.840 adults lie to you. Isn't a hungry kid from that 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.079 background going to rely on their experience and be more 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.120 successful by eating the marshmallow in hand instead of waiting 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.960 for two in the bush. Just for the record, no 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.320 one's hiding marshmallows and bushes. But I do agree with you, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.160 and more importantly, the test creator, Walter Michelle himself agrees 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.120 with you. How's that? Well, you know that wonderful podcast 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.600 in Visibilia. So they had Walter Michelle on recently where 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.720 he was voicing his frustration with the study. He was 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.880 saying that it was totally misinterpreted. His feeling was that 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.680 a kid's destiny and success can't be predicted by a 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.920 single marshmallow. I mean, he thought that was just as 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.880 ridiculous as we do. So I've gotten this wrong for 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.360 a long time. What's the study actually about. Well, it's 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.040 really about how personality is actually this flexible thing. Like 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:56.000 if you take a kid who can't wait to eat 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.880 a chocolate chip cookie. And to be clear, these children 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.560 were basically cookie moms with zero self control. But if 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.160 you sit a cookie monster down and you encourage them 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.480 to ignore the treat in front of them and pretend 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.600 it isn't there, suddenly they can increase their willpower from 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.880 a few seconds to up to fifteen minutes, So that 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.160 actually feels like a totally different study, or at least 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.679 very different from how I've always heard it talked about, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.440 which is kind of amazing. Also, I I just hearing 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.159 about marshmallows makes me wanted to take this on a 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.800 tangent about peets and how marshmallow birds used to have 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.280 wings like, But since we're talking about self control, I'm 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.600 gonna get this back on track, and Press is the 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.080 king of tangents, I'm gona pressed with that self control. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.200 So well, we're gonna talk today about personality tests and 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.920 whether they really work. And we've got an incredible guest 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.039 on today is Jonathan Cats from the cult comedy show 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.120 You and I love so much, Doctor Cats, and we've 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.560 got two other very special guests on as well. That's right, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.200 we'll be talking to our sisters, who are both super smart, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.839 and oddly, they both have PhDs in psychology, so we'll 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.119 get them to analyze us a little later. How weird 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.359 is that that both of our sisters or PhDs in 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.040 psychology brought up? But that'll be a lot of fun. Now. 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.240 One of the reasons I like the story of Michelle's 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.159 marshmallow tests and how it's been extrapolated over the years. 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.360 Is that historically speaking, there seems to be this innate 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.960 desire to predict our futures through tests and different experiments, like, 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.680 if we only know this one thing about ourselves, we 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.280 can figure out how to be a success. And it's 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.960 kind of incredible how big the field is. So in 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:29.040 two thousand twelve, personality testing was a five hundred million 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.200 dollar industry with well over tests on the market, and 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.640 it's only grown since then. Yeah, business is clearly booming. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.480 For decades, workplaces have used personality tests to groom management, 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.320 colleges have used them to pair roommates. You know, dating 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.520 sites use them. I mean, there are Myers Briggs variations 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.440 all over the internet. But before we get into those, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.640 why don't we talk a little about the first personality 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.960 tests that really took America by storm and inspired one 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.719 of America's greatest poets along the way, and that's Phrenology. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.919 I'm all for it. But back, before we do that, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:02.640 I do want to let our listeners know that we 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.760 really started thinking about this topic and reading the book 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.600 by Annie Murphy Paul called Cult of Personality. But anyway 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.840 you were saying, yeah, I was talking about phrenology. So 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.000 I don't know if this happens to you, but I 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.559 feel like periodically I'll be in like a thrift store, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.080 a vintage shop, and I'll see one of those skulls 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.679 that it is all mapped out with a particular ridge 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.160 on the noggin, like something that shows like this is 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.680 where courage comes from, or anger or whatever. And I've 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.680 always been curious how this skull mapping got its start, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.280 and it turns out it's all rooted in jealousy. Jealousy 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.520 how so it goes back to this guy, Franz Joseph 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.160 gall who was studying medicine in Vienna in the seventeen 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.320 eighties and he wasn't measuring up to his classmates. Basically, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.039 Gall knew he was smarter than his peers, or thought 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.000 he was, but he found himself scoring lower on tests. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.640 So we tried to puzzle out how these inferior minds 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.000 were beating him on exams, and then he noticed a pattern. 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:01.760 They all had beady bulging eye was yeah, well, that's 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:03.919 what he thought. So he took note and theorized that 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.080 their aptitude for cramming verbal information was causing their eyes 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.000 to protrude, like, yeah, their mind was supposedly pushing on 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.120 their brains and making certain features more prominent on their heads. 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.720 And once he got a degree, he started collecting data 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.400 to support his theory, Like he started with beggars and criminals, 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.400 trying to figure out where the telltale signs of pickpockets are. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.520 Then he moved to studying lower class working folk, like 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.040 he lured them into chatting with some good wine and 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.440 get them to spill their secrets, and then he tried 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.280 to map their heads against those traits. And he gradually 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.240 moved up to high society, and along the way he 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:42.040 started charting various bumpy areas that could determine cowardice or quarrelsomeness. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.680 And along with things like mechanical aptitude, it all seems 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.040 like a very weird recipe for stereotyping people. I mean, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:50.520 he actually, you know what it reminds me of just 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.640 a little. And I know this isn't quite the same, 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.920 but I remember seeing this story on society pages about 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.640 Jews and how they used to dominate basketball in the 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.120 early nineteen thirties. So in trying to explain why Jews 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.119 were so good at basketball, the new York Daily News 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.560 said this the game places a premium on an alert 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:14.000 scheming mind, flashy trickiness, artful dodging, and general smart alecness. 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.920 It's explaining away their wins on the court with these 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.600 horrible stereotypes. But it's almost like when you don't understand 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.880 how someone could be better than you. In Gall's case, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.360 it was exams, and in this case it was basketball. 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.600 You just find a stereotype and explain the whole thing away. 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.079 That's so weird, but you know, this idea that you 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.319 could divine someone's full nature by examining their skulls, bumps. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.480 It was really captivating to the public. So it moved 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.360 from Europe to America, where it really took off, partially 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.040 because practitioners moved from just identifying criminals and keeping the 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.559 working class in their place to really flattering people. They 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.800 needed to believe in it, and it was bolstered by 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.640 the fact that it all truly felt rooted in science, 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.880 like phrenologists had painstakingly mapped over thirty areas of personality. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.720 But the real genius of selling it to the public 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.120 was perfected by these two brothers, Orson and Lorenzo Fowler, 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.600 and their partner Samuel Wells, like together they promised this 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.360 mental photograph of your strengths and your weaknesses, which is 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.880 basically what personality tests still do. I mean, as the 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.880 author Annie Murphy Paul points out future presidents James Garfield 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.200 and John Tyler, they were thoroughly impressed and convinced by 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.600 their readings, and Claire Bardon took courses in it. I mean, 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.199 businesses were putting stock in it for assessing their hires, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.760 and this trend from the eighteen hundreds it continued well 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.680 into the nineteen thirties. But the person it seems to 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.800 have the most impact on, and this is the part 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.800 I love about personality tests. Is it truly affected Walt 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.280 Whitman Like as a wandering soul, he couldn't quite figure 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.000 out what his career paths should be, and his readings 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.480 basically gave him the confidence to believe in his genius 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.280 and actually push the boundaries of poetry and oddly some 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.760 of the vocabulary and his poems that comes straight from phrenology. 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:01.840 Jur Well, you know, I was reading up on the 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.760 Foulers and they were such pop personalities at the time 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.480 that they also have the ability to launch some interesting 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:12.400 trends like orson Fowler and his quote. Scientific research determined 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.520 that circles were the most efficient design in nature, so 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.720 he proposed that circular houses would make more efficient homes. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.120 But since circles are hard to recreate, he suggested people 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.400 build octagonal homes made of concrete, and the trend kind 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.600 of took off. I mean, he advocated for some other 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:32.280 modern ideas to like central heating and door plumbing, big 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.160 glass windows, all of which he claimed would make for 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.160 healthier living. But it's still kind of amazing that he 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.480 was so respected that he could just say the words 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:45.280 octagonal houses and snap people would be all in. Speaking 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.079 of all in, I'm gonna take these marshmallows and put 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:48.960 them onto my mouth while we break for a quick 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:56.880 That's a great idea. So who do we have on 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.480 the line today, a mango? Well, we've got two very 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.480 special us, your sister and mine, Doctor Bama Hagar and 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.720 Dr Shant Way. To emphasize that, doctor, that's right. A 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.280 fun fact about them is that they're both way smarter 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.640 than us, which not only have they told us repeatedly 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.880 over the years, but they both have PhDs in psychology 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.920 to prove it. How weird is that? So welcome Bama 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.480 and Shanta. Thank you now, Mango, I have to say 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.880 my childhood, as you know, I've talked about this before 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.000 and gone to therapy for this as well, was not 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:32.600 always easy. Having an older sister that um was so 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.640 interested in psychology that I kind of became a guinea pick. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.520 And she uh figured out that I had O c 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.720 D pretty early on and would set up these little 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.920 experiments around the house and would wait for me to 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:44.920 walk into a room when she'd moved the salt and 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.480 pepper shaker a little off center from the kitchen table, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.080 and I would walk in and correct them, and of 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:52.800 course she would jump out and be like, ah, I 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.760 knew it, You're weird. So Um, So that's that's what 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.200 life was like for me as a kid. But Bama, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.600 so I have to ask you here this part of 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.080 your inspiration for going on to become a psychologist, no question. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:09.280 I really didn't think about clinical child psychology until I 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.319 got to watch you develop will, which was a lot 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.600 of fun. Um. The O c D thing definitely did 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.320 not try to pick on you, but that is kind 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.079 of current. So I still sort of move things around 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.600 if I visit your house to you know, just put 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.800 something a jar in the kitchen, or you know, maybe 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.640 something that just shouldn't be there, like a potholder on 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.560 the counter. That's that's just not right. And I just 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.760 kind of try to leave those things after I visit, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.040 and that's much appreciated. Now, currently you're working with the 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.240 Autism Society of Alabama. Do you want to talk a 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.040 little bit about the work you guys have been involved 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.920 in very recently? Oh? Sure, I'm an autism advocate, so 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:56.120 I have clinical child psychology, but my son, who is 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.320 now seventeen, has bought in spectrum disorder, So I'm an 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:05.320 autism advocate and I don't currently practice. But just recently 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.520 in the state of Alabama, we passed a autism insurance 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:17.480 law so that UM private insurance will cover autism therapy. 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.080 And that law has been passed or similar law has 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.080 been passed in forty five days and we were the 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.040 forty six so we were thrilled to get that done 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.960 and we're hoping that it will help thousands of Alabama 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:33.000 families as they pay for autism therapies and you know, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:37.000 try to help their child to let developed to their potential, 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.280 which is amazing. Just watching that from a distance was incredible. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.400 So this is I wanted to say something about my sister. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.199 One of the things that's popular in our family law 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.040 is just how bossy and what a know it all 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.280 she was when she was a kid. And there's a 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.440 story about how we just moved into our neighborhood and 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.520 Delaware and our mom looked out the window and there 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.080 was a circle of neighbors just gossiping in front of 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.079 our driveway, and when she went to inquire what was 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.600 going on, she found Shanta in the center explaining all 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.040 the day's gossip to everyone. And so Shanta, I wanted 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.800 to ask you, like, why do you think you're so 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.120 interested in psychology? Do you think any of that's rooted 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.000 in wanting to know what's going on with other people? Oh? Absolutely, Yeah. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.760 I always wanted to know everyone's business, know what was 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.760 going on. In fact, I think there's another story when 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.760 we went to the zoo and instead of looking at 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.360 the animals, I was turned around looking at the people. Yeah. 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.680 I've always been interested in in people and getting to know, 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.160 you know, what makes them tick. You currently teach Shanta 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.920 the Temple in Philadelphia. But I heard you actually did 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.960 your master's thesis on the equal sign. Now it feels 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.000 like the equal sign has been around for a while, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.120 so what sort of new discoveries are there to be 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.960 made about it? Uh? Yeah, the equals SIGNE has been 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.440 around for a little while, um, But it turns out 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.560 that kids still don't really understand it very well. UM. 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:55.520 So yeah, back when I was doing my masters, we 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.440 were looking at UM what kids thought of the equal sign. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.320 And in fact, when you ask kids what the equal 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.160 sign means, oftentimes they'll tell you what we call an 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.560 operational definition that really thinks about what you do with 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.520 equal sign. So they'll say things like you put the 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.560 answer after, or you total up all of the numbers, 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.960 or you know, you put whatever. Um. Uh, some you 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.400 get in the blank after because kids are used to 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.760 seeing um equal sign and then a blank sign right after. 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.240 But it turns out that those kids who actually do 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.680 their homework more often UM, and who get more practice 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.560 with equal sign UM followed by a blank, they actually 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.200 have a little bit more difficulty when they get to 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.520 algebra UM and can't really understand the idea that it's 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.480 a relational definition they need, which is really the idea 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.960 that you have um the same quantity on both sides. Uh. Yeah, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.560 she is part of it, kind of figure out how 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.840 to really help kids learn that they have the wrong 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.160 understanding of equal plign Well, let's get to the quiz here, Mango, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:51.600 what's the name of the game we're playing with our 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.440 sisters today. It's a little game called Oh brother where 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.240 every answer pays tribute to the wonderful set of brothers. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.920 All Right, so if we were to say Groucho, Harpo 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.160 and Zeppo, you'd say Mark's brothers. Right, this is going 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.480 to be pretty rapid fire. So we're going to put 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.480 sixty seconds on the clock and see how many you 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.560 can get. And you're playing as a team, so we'll 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.920 take whatever answer gets blurted out first. So let's get 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:20.240 that clock ready, all right, you guys ready, I'm ready. Okay, 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.000 here we go, Question number one. Pioneers in Flight, Wilbur 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.840 and Orville were known as Yes h G TV show 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.040 where twins Jonathan Now, wait, wait, wait wait? Should we stop? 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.840 Should we stop? What? Because we got that one? Right? 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.680 Should we stop? We just say we won? No, that's 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:50.360 not how this works. Yeah, they did they way, good job, guys. 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.920 All right, has the clock on their Okay, here we go, alright. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.880 Question number two h G t V brothers were twins 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.880 Jonathan and Drew people transform fixer Uppers. I'm not going 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.919 to know that. This is where I don't property brothers. 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.439 You got it all right? Question number three, I like 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:15.520 to celebrate over everyone, all right. Filmmakers. Filmmakers behind Fargo 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:21.200 and The Big Lebowski. Yes, nineteen eighty movie featuring SNL 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:28.800 stars John Belushi and dan Ackroyd. Alright you question number five. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:34.120 Comedic brothers that include Sean, Marlon, Damon and Keenan Ivory, 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.960 Wayne's brother You got it all right? Production company that 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.840 made Batman and Wonder Woman also used to be a 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.879 TV network called w B. Yes, you got it all right? 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.640 The bonus question the last one American. Yes we didn't. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:57.320 We didn't celebrate that one. All right, Here we go. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.560 The bonus question American pop psychologist and talk show personality 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.119 who wrote a daily newspaper advice column from nineteen sixty 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.600 to two thousand thirteen. And these are brothers. No, it's 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:18.360 a trick question. Dr joy Yes, Dr Joyce brothers. Well, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:24.720 they flew through this and amazing John so Chanton Vema 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.720 you did incredibly well, and for that you win our 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.800 grand prize, which is a note to your mother from 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.280 us singing your praises, which is especially poignant because it's 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.520 our mother too. That's right. Congratulations you two, and thanks 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:56.240 so much for joining us. Thank goods. Welcome back to 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.800 Part Time Genius. Today, we're talking about personality tests. Now, 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:01.479 my ago, I know you and I both took an 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.320 online Myers Briggs knockoff tests. So how do you do? 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.960 I aced it nice now. I got an I N 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.120 t J, which means I'm introverted, intuitive, thinking and judging, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.560 which actually kind of makes sense to me. I mean 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:18.159 Myers Briggs. As you know, charts for binaries, like you 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.200 could be introverted or extroverted. You could be intuitive or sensing, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.760 just thinking or feeling and perceiving or judging, and those 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:31.040 combinations yield sixteen different personality types. But as an I 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:32.600 N t J, I just want to let you know 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.840 I'm in really good company like Arnold Schwarzenegger's there, Jane Austen, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:43.480 Isaac Newton, also Jay z and Angela Lansbury Landsbury. Now 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.480 that now it makes sense, you're totally a Landsbury. I 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.080 mean we're all pretty much the same person, like wrapping 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.320 bars and solving murders every week. Yep, that sounds about right. Okay, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.240 Well I'm an e n f J. Okay, so that 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.280 means you're extroverted and intuitive and feeling and judging, which 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.240 is great because we're both judgy. But that puts you 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.679 in good company too. You get Oprah Winfrey, Barack Obama, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.040 Nelson Mendel, okay, Martin Luther King. All right, I think 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.800 every important black figure is in the n f J. Yeah, 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.919 that's that's pretty much always been my goal. Oh and 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.080 also bono, yep, that's all. That's all important black figures. 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.320 Well done. So I'm always in two minds about this stuff, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.840 like I feel the same way about astrology. I'm happy 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:27.639 to be a tourist when it means I'm just like 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.080 Wes Anderson, who you know shares my birthday, or William 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.679 Shakespeare because we're all talented and born in spring. But 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.560 when it suggests I'm a Hitler or like a Genghis Khan, 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.200 who are also apparently born in spring, I get a 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.560 little more suspicious. Yeah yeah, well, I mean I tend 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.800 to put a little more stock and personality tests than astrology, 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.439 and one of the geniuses of Myers Briggs is that 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.399 there aren't any bad types. Of course, it's also one 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.240 of the criticisms. But part of the reason it really 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.159 took off is because it was one of the first 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.840 personality tests truly designed to understand health. The end of 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.320 it jewels. But before we get into that, let's go 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.720 back a little and chat about one of its predecessors, 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:10.840 the m m p I, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:12.920 That's right, It is a little bit of a mouthful, 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.640 but as you can guess, the test was developed in Minnesota. 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.879 It was the work of a neuroscientist, J. Charlie McKinley 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.640 and the psychologist Stark Hathaway, and the test was designed 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.480 to understand and diagnose patients. And it's interesting because the 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.200 questions are so drastically different from the test before it. 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.840 So in prior data sheets, the questions were ridiculously transparent, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.840 and they would ask things like are you happy most 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.840 of the time, which it was obviously easy to gain. 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:43.440 So the pair did something completely different. Instead of assuming 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.600 they knew how patients would answer the questions, they surveyed 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:50.399 a massive number of what they called Minnesota normals. But 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.159 they also surveyed a number of patients, and if the 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.320 majority of the normals answered a true false question one way, 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.679 while say, schizophrenics patients answered another, they use that as 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.800 a question that could indicate schizophrenia. You know, I kind 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.960 of want to support the Minnesota normal sports team, that's right. Yeah. 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.359