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Speaker 1: I guess what will? What's that mango? So I was

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Speaker 1: listening to the Harry Potter audio books with my kids

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Speaker 1: and reliving how much I love those stories. But do

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Speaker 1: you know what scenes still gives me anxiety all these

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Speaker 1: years later. It's when Harry sits under the sorting hat.

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Speaker 1: So there are I don't know what seven or eight

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Speaker 1: battle scenes with Voldemart, and it's the sorting hat that

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Speaker 1: makes you anxious. It is, I mean, to me, there's

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Speaker 1: something so palpable about his anxiety and that sorting hat scene,

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Speaker 1: like this dumb, fidgety hat determines your fate in front

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Speaker 1: of your whole school, and Harry is so nervous about it,

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Speaker 1: like he's sitting there, sweating, desperately trying to outthink this

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Speaker 1: test and trying to convince a dumb hat that he

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Speaker 1: should be sorted into Griffin Door instead of Slytherin. And

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Speaker 1: it's not like you're gonna apply for a transfer from

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Speaker 1: one house to another, like once you're in your sorted

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Speaker 1: for life. But what's terrifying to me is that your

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Speaker 1: destiny is all wrapped up in that single moment, which

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love to organize people using the sorting

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Speaker 1: hat system, Like my dad is very clearly a raven claw,

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Speaker 1: my mom's a huffle poff, my sister is obviously a Slytherin,

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Speaker 1: totally a sin. But as I started to think about

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Speaker 1: it more, I realized why I feel that anxiety, and

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Speaker 1: it's from taking aptitude tests as a kid. Like in

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Speaker 1: sixth grade, my whole class was forced to take a

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Speaker 1: test that was supposed to give us a better sense

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Speaker 1: of what careers we should pursue. But as I was

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Speaker 1: taking it, I actually remember thinking, well, if I answered

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Speaker 1: this question this way, does that mean I can't be

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Speaker 1: a mechanical engineer or would this answer stop me from

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Speaker 1: being a teacher? Like I wanted options. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be boxed in by an exam, But revisiting that

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Speaker 1: experience through the Harry Potter sorting hat made me wonder

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Speaker 1: how accurate our personality tests then, how much stock should

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Speaker 1: we put in them? And is my sister really a Slytherin?

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Speaker 1: Because she sure seems Slytherin to me. So that's what

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Speaker 1: this episode is all about. Right, Welcome to Part Time Genius.

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Speaker 1: I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my

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Speaker 1: good friend Man Gueshot Ticketer, and today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about personality tests and whether they really work. But

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Speaker 1: before we do that, I'm just gonna place this marshmallow

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Speaker 1: right here, Mango, right here in the middle of the table. Come.

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Speaker 1: You know you're trolling me, And if you don't eat

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Speaker 1: it for fifteen minutes, there might just be another marshmallow

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Speaker 1: for you. Here it is. You know how much I

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Speaker 1: hate the marshmallow self control experiment? I do, but I

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Speaker 1: don't really understand. Why. Is it because you hate marshmallows? No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's because I don't understand how it can be

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Speaker 1: a good test. Like people always talk about how a

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Speaker 1: kid who has self control is going to be successful,

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Speaker 1: And I get how if someone tells a kid to

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Speaker 1: sit and behave and not eat the marshmallow and they

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Speaker 1: wait and delay their gratification, that it may be an

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Speaker 1: indicator of a successful future for a certain type of kids.

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Speaker 1: But what if that kid comes from a rough background,

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Speaker 1: what if there isn't food security in his or her home,

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Speaker 1: or what if they come from a home where the

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Speaker 1: adults lie to you. Isn't a hungry kid from that

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Speaker 1: background going to rely on their experience and be more

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Speaker 1: successful by eating the marshmallow in hand instead of waiting

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Speaker 1: for two in the bush. Just for the record, no

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Speaker 1: one's hiding marshmallows and bushes. But I do agree with you,

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Speaker 1: and more importantly, the test creator, Walter Michelle himself agrees

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Speaker 1: with you. How's that? Well, you know that wonderful podcast

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Speaker 1: in Visibilia. So they had Walter Michelle on recently where

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Speaker 1: he was voicing his frustration with the study. He was

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Speaker 1: saying that it was totally misinterpreted. His feeling was that

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Speaker 1: a kid's destiny and success can't be predicted by a

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Speaker 1: single marshmallow. I mean, he thought that was just as

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Speaker 1: ridiculous as we do. So I've gotten this wrong for

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Speaker 1: a long time. What's the study actually about. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: really about how personality is actually this flexible thing. Like

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Speaker 1: if you take a kid who can't wait to eat

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Speaker 1: a chocolate chip cookie. And to be clear, these children

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Speaker 1: were basically cookie moms with zero self control. But if

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Speaker 1: you sit a cookie monster down and you encourage them

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Speaker 1: to ignore the treat in front of them and pretend

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Speaker 1: it isn't there, suddenly they can increase their willpower from

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Speaker 1: a few seconds to up to fifteen minutes, So that

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Speaker 1: actually feels like a totally different study, or at least

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Speaker 1: very different from how I've always heard it talked about,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of amazing. Also, I I just hearing

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Speaker 1: about marshmallows makes me wanted to take this on a

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Speaker 1: tangent about peets and how marshmallow birds used to have

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Speaker 1: wings like, But since we're talking about self control, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get this back on track, and Press is the

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Speaker 1: king of tangents, I'm gona pressed with that self control.

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Speaker 1: So well, we're gonna talk today about personality tests and

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Speaker 1: whether they really work. And we've got an incredible guest

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Speaker 1: on today is Jonathan Cats from the cult comedy show

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Speaker 1: You and I love so much, Doctor Cats, and we've

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Speaker 1: got two other very special guests on as well. That's right,

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Speaker 1: we'll be talking to our sisters, who are both super smart,

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Speaker 1: and oddly, they both have PhDs in psychology, so we'll

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Speaker 1: get them to analyze us a little later. How weird

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Speaker 1: is that that both of our sisters or PhDs in

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Speaker 1: psychology brought up? But that'll be a lot of fun. Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons I like the story of Michelle's

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Speaker 1: marshmallow tests and how it's been extrapolated over the years.

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Speaker 1: Is that historically speaking, there seems to be this innate

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Speaker 1: desire to predict our futures through tests and different experiments, like,

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Speaker 1: if we only know this one thing about ourselves, we

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Speaker 1: can figure out how to be a success. And it's

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Speaker 1: kind of incredible how big the field is. So in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, personality testing was a five hundred million

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Speaker 1: dollar industry with well over tests on the market, and

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Speaker 1: it's only grown since then. Yeah, business is clearly booming.

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Speaker 1: For decades, workplaces have used personality tests to groom management,

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Speaker 1: colleges have used them to pair roommates. You know, dating

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Speaker 1: sites use them. I mean, there are Myers Briggs variations

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Speaker 1: all over the internet. But before we get into those,

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Speaker 1: why don't we talk a little about the first personality

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Speaker 1: tests that really took America by storm and inspired one

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Speaker 1: of America's greatest poets along the way, and that's Phrenology.

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Speaker 1: I'm all for it. But back, before we do that,

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Speaker 1: I do want to let our listeners know that we

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Speaker 1: really started thinking about this topic and reading the book

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Speaker 1: by Annie Murphy Paul called Cult of Personality. But anyway

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Speaker 1: you were saying, yeah, I was talking about phrenology. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this happens to you, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like periodically I'll be in like a thrift store,

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Speaker 1: a vintage shop, and I'll see one of those skulls

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Speaker 1: that it is all mapped out with a particular ridge

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Speaker 1: on the noggin, like something that shows like this is

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Speaker 1: where courage comes from, or anger or whatever. And I've

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Speaker 1: always been curious how this skull mapping got its start,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out it's all rooted in jealousy. Jealousy

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Speaker 1: how so it goes back to this guy, Franz Joseph

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Speaker 1: gall who was studying medicine in Vienna in the seventeen

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Speaker 1: eighties and he wasn't measuring up to his classmates. Basically,

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Speaker 1: Gall knew he was smarter than his peers, or thought

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Speaker 1: he was, but he found himself scoring lower on tests.

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Speaker 1: So we tried to puzzle out how these inferior minds

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Speaker 1: were beating him on exams, and then he noticed a pattern.

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Speaker 1: They all had beady bulging eye was yeah, well, that's

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Speaker 1: what he thought. So he took note and theorized that

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Speaker 1: their aptitude for cramming verbal information was causing their eyes

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Speaker 1: to protrude, like, yeah, their mind was supposedly pushing on

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Speaker 1: their brains and making certain features more prominent on their heads.

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Speaker 1: And once he got a degree, he started collecting data

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Speaker 1: to support his theory, Like he started with beggars and criminals,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out where the telltale signs of pickpockets are.

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Speaker 1: Then he moved to studying lower class working folk, like

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Speaker 1: he lured them into chatting with some good wine and

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Speaker 1: get them to spill their secrets, and then he tried

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Speaker 1: to map their heads against those traits. And he gradually

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Speaker 1: moved up to high society, and along the way he

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Speaker 1: started charting various bumpy areas that could determine cowardice or quarrelsomeness.

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Speaker 1: And along with things like mechanical aptitude, it all seems

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Speaker 1: like a very weird recipe for stereotyping people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he actually, you know what it reminds me of just

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Speaker 1: a little. And I know this isn't quite the same,

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Speaker 1: but I remember seeing this story on society pages about

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Speaker 1: Jews and how they used to dominate basketball in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen thirties. So in trying to explain why Jews

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Speaker 1: were so good at basketball, the new York Daily News

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Speaker 1: said this the game places a premium on an alert

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Speaker 1: scheming mind, flashy trickiness, artful dodging, and general smart alecness.

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Speaker 1: It's explaining away their wins on the court with these

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Speaker 1: horrible stereotypes. But it's almost like when you don't understand

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Speaker 1: how someone could be better than you. In Gall's case,

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Speaker 1: it was exams, and in this case it was basketball.

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Speaker 1: You just find a stereotype and explain the whole thing away.

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Speaker 1: That's so weird, but you know, this idea that you

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Speaker 1: could divine someone's full nature by examining their skulls, bumps.

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Speaker 1: It was really captivating to the public. So it moved

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Speaker 1: from Europe to America, where it really took off, partially

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Speaker 1: because practitioners moved from just identifying criminals and keeping the

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Speaker 1: working class in their place to really flattering people. They

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Speaker 1: needed to believe in it, and it was bolstered by

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Speaker 1: the fact that it all truly felt rooted in science,

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Speaker 1: like phrenologists had painstakingly mapped over thirty areas of personality.

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Speaker 1: But the real genius of selling it to the public

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Speaker 1: was perfected by these two brothers, Orson and Lorenzo Fowler,

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Speaker 1: and their partner Samuel Wells, like together they promised this

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Speaker 1: mental photograph of your strengths and your weaknesses, which is

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Speaker 1: basically what personality tests still do. I mean, as the

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Speaker 1: author Annie Murphy Paul points out future presidents James Garfield

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Speaker 1: and John Tyler, they were thoroughly impressed and convinced by

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Speaker 1: their readings, and Claire Bardon took courses in it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: businesses were putting stock in it for assessing their hires,

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Speaker 1: and this trend from the eighteen hundreds it continued well

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Speaker 1: into the nineteen thirties. But the person it seems to

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Speaker 1: have the most impact on, and this is the part

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Speaker 1: I love about personality tests. Is it truly affected Walt

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Speaker 1: Whitman Like as a wandering soul, he couldn't quite figure

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Speaker 1: out what his career paths should be, and his readings

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Speaker 1: basically gave him the confidence to believe in his genius

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Speaker 1: and actually push the boundaries of poetry and oddly some

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Speaker 1: of the vocabulary and his poems that comes straight from phrenology.

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Speaker 1: Jur Well, you know, I was reading up on the

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Speaker 1: Foulers and they were such pop personalities at the time

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Speaker 1: that they also have the ability to launch some interesting

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Speaker 1: trends like orson Fowler and his quote. Scientific research determined

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Speaker 1: that circles were the most efficient design in nature, so

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Speaker 1: he proposed that circular houses would make more efficient homes.

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Speaker 1: But since circles are hard to recreate, he suggested people

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Speaker 1: build octagonal homes made of concrete, and the trend kind

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Speaker 1: of took off. I mean, he advocated for some other

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Speaker 1: modern ideas to like central heating and door plumbing, big

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Speaker 1: glass windows, all of which he claimed would make for

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Speaker 1: healthier living. But it's still kind of amazing that he

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Speaker 1: was so respected that he could just say the words

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Speaker 1: octagonal houses and snap people would be all in. Speaking

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Speaker 1: of all in, I'm gonna take these marshmallows and put

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Speaker 1: them onto my mouth while we break for a quick

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Speaker 1: That's a great idea. So who do we have on

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Speaker 1: the line today, a mango? Well, we've got two very

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Speaker 1: special us, your sister and mine, Doctor Bama Hagar and

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Speaker 1: Dr Shant Way. To emphasize that, doctor, that's right. A

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Speaker 1: fun fact about them is that they're both way smarter

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Speaker 1: than us, which not only have they told us repeatedly

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Speaker 1: over the years, but they both have PhDs in psychology

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Speaker 1: to prove it. How weird is that? So welcome Bama

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Speaker 1: and Shanta. Thank you now, Mango, I have to say

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Speaker 1: my childhood, as you know, I've talked about this before

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Speaker 1: always easy. Having an older sister that um was so

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Speaker 1: And she uh figured out that I had O c

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Speaker 1: D pretty early on and would set up these little

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Speaker 1: walk into a room when she'd moved the salt and

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Speaker 1: and I would walk in and correct them, and of

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Speaker 1: course she would jump out and be like, ah, I

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Speaker 1: knew it, You're weird. So Um, So that's that's what

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Speaker 1: life was like for me as a kid. But Bama,

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Speaker 1: so I have to ask you here this part of

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Speaker 1: your inspiration for going on to become a psychologist, no question.

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Speaker 1: I really didn't think about clinical child psychology until I

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Speaker 1: got to watch you develop will, which was a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. Um. The O c D thing definitely did

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Speaker 1: not try to pick on you, but that is kind

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Speaker 1: of current. So I still sort of move things around

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Speaker 1: if I visit your house to you know, just put

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Speaker 1: something a jar in the kitchen, or you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: something that just shouldn't be there, like a potholder on

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Speaker 1: the counter. That's that's just not right. And I just

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Speaker 1: kind of try to leave those things after I visit,

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Speaker 1: and that's much appreciated. Now, currently you're working with the

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Speaker 1: Autism Society of Alabama. Do you want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the work you guys have been involved

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Speaker 1: in very recently? Oh? Sure, I'm an autism advocate, so

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Speaker 1: I have clinical child psychology, but my son, who is

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Speaker 1: now seventeen, has bought in spectrum disorder, So I'm an

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Speaker 1: autism advocate and I don't currently practice. But just recently

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Speaker 1: in the state of Alabama, we passed a autism insurance

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Speaker 1: law so that UM private insurance will cover autism therapy.

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Speaker 1: And that law has been passed or similar law has

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Speaker 1: been passed in forty five days and we were the

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Speaker 1: forty six so we were thrilled to get that done

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Speaker 1: and we're hoping that it will help thousands of Alabama

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Speaker 1: families as they pay for autism therapies and you know,

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Speaker 1: try to help their child to let developed to their potential,

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Speaker 1: which is amazing. Just watching that from a distance was incredible.

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Speaker 1: So this is I wanted to say something about my sister.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's popular in our family law

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Speaker 1: is just how bossy and what a know it all

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Speaker 1: she was when she was a kid. And there's a

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Speaker 1: story about how we just moved into our neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: Delaware and our mom looked out the window and there

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Speaker 1: was a circle of neighbors just gossiping in front of

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Speaker 1: our driveway, and when she went to inquire what was

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Speaker 1: going on, she found Shanta in the center explaining all

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Speaker 1: the day's gossip to everyone. And so Shanta, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you, like, why do you think you're so

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Speaker 1: interested in psychology? Do you think any of that's rooted

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Speaker 1: in wanting to know what's going on with other people? Oh? Absolutely, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to know everyone's business, know what was

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Speaker 1: going on. In fact, I think there's another story when

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Speaker 1: we went to the zoo and instead of looking at

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Speaker 1: the animals, I was turned around looking at the people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've always been interested in in people and getting to know,

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Speaker 1: you know, what makes them tick. You currently teach Shanta

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Speaker 1: the Temple in Philadelphia. But I heard you actually did

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Speaker 1: your master's thesis on the equal sign. Now it feels

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Speaker 1: like the equal sign has been around for a while,

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Speaker 1: so what sort of new discoveries are there to be

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Speaker 1: made about it? Uh? Yeah, the equals SIGNE has been

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Speaker 1: around for a little while, um, But it turns out

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Speaker 1: that kids still don't really understand it very well. UM.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, back when I was doing my masters, we

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Speaker 1: were looking at UM what kids thought of the equal sign.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, when you ask kids what the equal

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Speaker 1: sign means, oftentimes they'll tell you what we call an

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Speaker 1: operational definition that really thinks about what you do with

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Speaker 1: equal sign. So they'll say things like you put the

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Speaker 1: answer after, or you total up all of the numbers,

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Speaker 1: or you know, you put whatever. Um. Uh, some you

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Speaker 1: get in the blank after because kids are used to

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Speaker 1: seeing um equal sign and then a blank sign right after.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out that those kids who actually do

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Speaker 1: their homework more often UM, and who get more practice

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Speaker 1: with equal sign UM followed by a blank, they actually

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Speaker 1: have a little bit more difficulty when they get to

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Speaker 1: algebra UM and can't really understand the idea that it's

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Speaker 1: a relational definition they need, which is really the idea

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Speaker 1: that you have um the same quantity on both sides. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she is part of it, kind of figure out how

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Speaker 1: to really help kids learn that they have the wrong

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Speaker 1: understanding of equal plign Well, let's get to the quiz here, Mango,

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Speaker 1: what's the name of the game we're playing with our

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Speaker 1: sisters today. It's a little game called Oh brother where

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Speaker 1: every answer pays tribute to the wonderful set of brothers.

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Speaker 1: All Right, so if we were to say Groucho, Harpo

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Speaker 1: and Zeppo, you'd say Mark's brothers. Right, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be pretty rapid fire. So we're going to put

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Speaker 1: sixty seconds on the clock and see how many you

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Speaker 1: can get. And you're playing as a team, so we'll

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Speaker 1: take whatever answer gets blurted out first. So let's get

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Speaker 1: that clock ready, all right, you guys ready, I'm ready. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here we go, Question number one. Pioneers in Flight, Wilbur

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Speaker 1: and Orville were known as Yes h G TV show

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Speaker 1: where twins Jonathan Now, wait, wait, wait wait? Should we stop?

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Speaker 1: Should we stop? What? Because we got that one? Right?

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Speaker 1: Should we stop? We just say we won? No, that's

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Speaker 1: not how this works. Yeah, they did they way, good job, guys.

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Speaker 1: All right, has the clock on their Okay, here we go, alright.

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Speaker 1: Question number two h G t V brothers were twins

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Speaker 1: Jonathan and Drew people transform fixer Uppers. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to know that. This is where I don't property brothers.

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Speaker 1: You got it all right? Question number three, I like

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Speaker 1: to celebrate over everyone, all right. Filmmakers. Filmmakers behind Fargo

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Speaker 1: and The Big Lebowski. Yes, nineteen eighty movie featuring SNL

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Speaker 1: stars John Belushi and dan Ackroyd. Alright you question number five.

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Speaker 1: Comedic brothers that include Sean, Marlon, Damon and Keenan Ivory,

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Speaker 1: Wayne's brother You got it all right? Production company that

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Speaker 1: made Batman and Wonder Woman also used to be a

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Speaker 1: TV network called w B. Yes, you got it all right?

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Speaker 1: The bonus question the last one American. Yes we didn't.

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Speaker 1: We didn't celebrate that one. All right, Here we go.

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Speaker 1: The bonus question American pop psychologist and talk show personality

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Speaker 1: who wrote a daily newspaper advice column from nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: to two thousand thirteen. And these are brothers. No, it's

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Speaker 1: a trick question. Dr joy Yes, Dr Joyce brothers. Well,

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Speaker 1: they flew through this and amazing John so Chanton Vema

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Speaker 1: you did incredibly well, and for that you win our

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Speaker 1: grand prize, which is a note to your mother from

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Speaker 1: us singing your praises, which is especially poignant because it's

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Speaker 1: our mother too. That's right. Congratulations you two, and thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Thank goods. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Part Time Genius. Today, we're talking about personality tests. Now,

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Speaker 1: my ago, I know you and I both took an

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Speaker 1: online Myers Briggs knockoff tests. So how do you do?

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Speaker 1: I aced it nice now. I got an I N

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Speaker 1: t J, which means I'm introverted, intuitive, thinking and judging,

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Speaker 1: which actually kind of makes sense to me. I mean

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Speaker 1: Myers Briggs. As you know, charts for binaries, like you

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Speaker 1: could be introverted or extroverted. You could be intuitive or sensing,

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Speaker 1: just thinking or feeling and perceiving or judging, and those

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Speaker 1: combinations yield sixteen different personality types. But as an I

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Speaker 1: N t J, I just want to let you know

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Speaker 1: I'm in really good company like Arnold Schwarzenegger's there, Jane Austen,

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Speaker 1: Isaac Newton, also Jay z and Angela Lansbury Landsbury. Now

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Speaker 1: that now it makes sense, you're totally a Landsbury. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're all pretty much the same person, like wrapping

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Speaker 1: bars and solving murders every week. Yep, that sounds about right. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well I'm an e n f J. Okay, so that

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Speaker 1: means you're extroverted and intuitive and feeling and judging, which

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Speaker 1: is great because we're both judgy. But that puts you

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Speaker 1: in good company too. You get Oprah Winfrey, Barack Obama,

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Speaker 1: Nelson Mendel, okay, Martin Luther King. All right, I think

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Speaker 1: every important black figure is in the n f J. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's pretty much always been my goal. Oh and

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Speaker 1: also bono, yep, that's all. That's all important black figures.

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Speaker 1: Well done. So I'm always in two minds about this stuff,

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Speaker 1: like I feel the same way about astrology. I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to be a tourist when it means I'm just like

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Speaker 1: Wes Anderson, who you know shares my birthday, or William

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare because we're all talented and born in spring. But

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Speaker 1: when it suggests I'm a Hitler or like a Genghis Khan,

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Speaker 1: who are also apparently born in spring, I get a

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Speaker 1: little more suspicious. Yeah yeah, well, I mean I tend

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Speaker 1: to put a little more stock and personality tests than astrology,

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Speaker 1: and one of the geniuses of Myers Briggs is that

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Speaker 1: there aren't any bad types. Of course, it's also one

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Speaker 1: of the criticisms. But part of the reason it really

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Speaker 1: took off is because it was one of the first

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Speaker 1: personality tests truly designed to understand health. The end of

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Speaker 1: it jewels. But before we get into that, let's go

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Speaker 1: back a little and chat about one of its predecessors,

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Speaker 1: the m m p I, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory.

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Speaker 1: That's right, It is a little bit of a mouthful,

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Speaker 1: but as you can guess, the test was developed in Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: It was the work of a neuroscientist, J. Charlie McKinley

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Speaker 1: and the psychologist Stark Hathaway, and the test was designed

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Speaker 1: to understand and diagnose patients. And it's interesting because the

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Speaker 1: questions are so drastically different from the test before it.

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Speaker 1: So in prior data sheets, the questions were ridiculously transparent,

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Speaker 1: and they would ask things like are you happy most

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Speaker 1: of the time, which it was obviously easy to gain.

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Speaker 1: So the pair did something completely different. Instead of assuming

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Speaker 1: they knew how patients would answer the questions, they surveyed

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Speaker 1: a massive number of what they called Minnesota normals. But

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Speaker 1: they also surveyed a number of patients, and if the

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Speaker 1: majority of the normals answered a true false question one way,

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Speaker 1: while say, schizophrenics patients answered another, they use that as

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Speaker 1: a question that could indicate schizophrenia. You know, I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to support the Minnesota normal sports team, that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So was this all like revolutionary for the time? Oh? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and it was surprisingly effective. But that's not the best part.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's truly fascinating is the strange mix of

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Speaker 1: questions that came out of trying to understand and split

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Speaker 1: up these populations. Let me just read you a few

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Speaker 1: of the five four questions on the list. So these

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Speaker 1: are all things you can either agree with or disagree

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Speaker 1: with in this in this survey. So the first one

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Speaker 1: is I think Lincoln was greater than Washington, or women

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Speaker 1: should not be allowed in cocktail bars, or so good

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Speaker 1: if the money were right, I would like to work

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Speaker 1: for a circus or a carnival. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to answer that, partially because they've lumped circus and carnival together.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'd be so in my head about

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Speaker 1: what's the right thing to say. Yeah, and there were

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Speaker 1: gross bodily ones too, Like I've never had any black,

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Speaker 1: tarry looking bowel movement. It's so gross. But the test

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Speaker 1: took off with psychologists and psychiatrists across the country partially

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Speaker 1: because it was pretty scientific. I mean a number of

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Speaker 1: the other exams of the time, like the roor shock

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Speaker 1: ink blot test, which we've all seen samples of, they

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Speaker 1: either overpathologized so called normal patients, assigning them conditions they

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Speaker 1: didn't have, or the test needed too much fuzzy interpretation.

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Speaker 1: But with the m m p I there were numbers

425
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: to back up every conclusion, and half away included all

426
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: sorts of really smart trick questions that would raise red

427
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: flags if a patient, you know, try to outsmart the

428
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: test or something. So by the mid nineteen fifties it

429
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: was the most widely used test of its kind, used

430
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: to diagnosed illness in prisons, doctor's offices, and mental wards

431
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: even which is interesting, but how did it transition into

432
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: a personality test? I mean, it seems like it was

433
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: being used to identify pathological extremes for the most part.

434
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: Yeah it was, but it's more and more quote normal

435
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: people took the test, and more and more data was gathered.

436
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: Grad students started seeing these patterns and individual profiles, and

437
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: so they started sorting these by strengths and weaknesses. So

438
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: it became more of a personality test over time. But

439
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't an easy road for the m m p I.

440
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: According to the Cult of Personality. After the era of McCarthy,

441
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: m had passed, the test was on the ropes because

442
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: senators were wary of any exam that forced people to

443
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: answer really prying questions. You know the fact that it

444
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: was used by government organizations and employers that really bothered

445
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: some representatives. But it squeaked past the congressional hearing on

446
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: life support and then remained in pretty wide use. Then

447
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties it took another serious blow. What

448
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: happened then, it was and Renaissenter told its employees that

449
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: if they didn't pass the test, they couldn't be promoted

450
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: into management roles. And when employees were forced to spend

451
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: five hours answering what they felt were pretty irrelevant through

452
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: false questions like I would like to be a florist

453
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: or I guess I know some pretty undesirable life, they

454
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: filed a class action. I mean, who doesn't know some

455
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: pretty undesirable type an you're really apparently one of them.

456
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: Read I'm a special agent of God, which sounds maybe

457
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: appropriate for psychiatric evaluation, but kind of troubling in the

458
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: context of determining whether someone could sell furniture, although I'm

459
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: guessing a special agent of God could sell furniture, probably,

460
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: so probably. What's crazy to me is just how popular

461
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: the exam is around the globe. Like, I know, it's

462
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: been translated into a monk and Urdu and Norwegian, which

463
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: honestly feels so strange when you consider some of the

464
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: questions that are getting asked, like I'm curious how the

465
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: monk feel about whether Lincoln is a greater president than

466
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: Washington and what that could possibly indicate other than the

467
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: love of like small change. Well, it's interesting to see

468
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: that while the m mp I had a second life

469
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: as a personality test, Hathaway, who co created it, was

470
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: disillusioned by the end of his life about its value.

471
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: He even said, I often have serious doubts about whether

472
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: it is meaningful to expect that we can develop tests

473
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: to measure or analyze personality. Of course, Isabel Myers and

474
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: Katherine Briggs felt a little differently, but why don't we

475
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: talk about that after a little break, So, Mango, as

476
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, pretty much every day during college, right around lunchtime,

477
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: we'd get together and watch our favorite show, Doctor Cats

478
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: Professional Therapist. It was on Comedy Central. It was a

479
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: show where he'd get comedians to come on and play

480
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: themselves as they would be his patients for him as

481
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: he was playing this role of Doctor Cats. And this

482
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: was around the time that we were starting Mental Flaws. Now,

483
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: do you think this may have had some inspiration or

484
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: have been some influence on us starting Mental Flaws? Probably not,

485
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: Probably not, But it was a good show. It made

486
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: us laugh and it was a lot of fun. Well.

487
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: Audible actually is releasing a new season. It's been over

488
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: a decade since Dr Cats was on TV, and the

489
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: first several episodes are out in audio form on Audible.

490
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: You'll hear guests such as Ray Romano, Sarah Silverman, dom Irrera,

491
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: weird Al, and several others. And we are so happy

492
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: to have him on the line with us today. Jonathan

493
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: Kat's welcome to Part Time Genius. Thank you, Jonathan. How

494
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: much do you rewatch the original show and did you

495
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: rewatch any of it? For the new Audible series I did,

496
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: but it wasn't really the helpful because we're creating new

497
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: episodes and um, it took me down the long, wonderful path.

498
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: I mean, I do love to watch the show, but

499
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: this was not the education. You know, speaking of watching

500
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: or rewatching the show, It's hard to remember how novel

501
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: the squiggle vision was when it first came on, and

502
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear why the decision was made to

503
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: go with that style of animation. Well, two reasons. One

504
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: is that the motion of the characters represents their emotional

505
00:27:53,440 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: turmoil and it's cheap, right. Yeah, maybe one of those

506
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: is to prior Actually these were those things are true. Actually,

507
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: anibitions and my patients were not internal when this showed up.

508
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: So one of the things I love when I, you know,

509
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: either read interviews or have heard interviews with you, is

510
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: that you're always so generous and crediting others, Like I

511
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: feel like you talk about learning from Tom Snyder, how

512
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: John Benjamin helped you break out of a rot and

513
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: what fun it was to work together. Um, and I

514
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: think that's such a rare thing, but it also comes

515
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: up in your comedy. I feel like your position as

516
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: a comedian on the show is is kind of a

517
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: generous one. Do you talk about how hard it is

518
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: to maybe be funny and facilitate a conversation like that?

519
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: You know, in the early days of the show, was

520
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: made my actual interest in their lives and how they felt,

521
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: because I do care about people, oddly enough, and that's

522
00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: interfered with the comedy. Mum, it's just like, because there's

523
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: nothing funny but the way they feel. No. I mean,

524
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: I happened to care, but people in general inculdn't comedians.

525
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: But we discovered pretty early on that that wasn't working comedically,

526
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: and it wasn't certainly wasn't making anybody feel better, right right,

527
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: So I'm curious about that format. Then the the idea

528
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: for having you know, guests come on and be your patients,

529
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: it seems like it would be a way, even though

530
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: you're acting, it seems like it would be a way

531
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: of maybe getting them to open up a little bit more.

532
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: Did you did you find that to be the case?

533
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: They did, and it actually made one woman cry and

534
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: one guy feel better. And this is this is after

535
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: eighty one episodes. It's not not a great record, right

536
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: right throw Now, did you find yourself pulling anything from

537
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: actual therapy sessions, maybe your visits to a therapist and

538
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: to the show in any way, Yeah, I did. But

539
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: but more importantly is that I haven't spend hundreds of

540
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: dollars trying to make my own therapists laugh. Whis just

541
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: a total waste of money. Yeah, it seems like, I mean,

542
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: she would have a good time and then I and

543
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: then I give her a check and I leave. Yeah,

544
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: I can see how that might be problematic. But did

545
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 1: you did you feel any better? I actually benefited from therapy.

546
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: A couple comes in my life, and I'm a believer.

547
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: We loved Carry Shandling so much, and and the fact

548
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: that he was on your show. I was curious if

549
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: if you went back and watched that episode after she

550
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: passed away. I did. I did because I was hoping

551
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: that they would show some of that footage at his

552
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: memorial service. Um so I was kind of put together

553
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: a fair will using footage of from the show and

554
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: just my own. When last conversations with the guy was

555
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: so uh so much the character characterization of who he was,

556
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: because I reminded him that every time had laughed at

557
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: one of his jokes, he said it sounds like I've

558
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: been shot. And then I when I told her, when

559
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: I reminded Garry that he said, I think I said

560
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: wounded so much like him, just to fine tune my memory.

561
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: That's pretty terrific. All these incredible comedians I feel like

562
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: I got to see more of through your show, and

563
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: that's part of the reason I love the In addition

564
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: to liking the storylines, I think when you guys were

565
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: in college, most stand up shows had to do with

566
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: the brick wall, yeah, and somebody sitting in front of

567
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: a tone jokes. M hmm. It's a really nice departure

568
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Cans from that format. And and like mangoing, some

569
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: things didn't work unless unless they were animated. Look, a

570
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: friend of my, Lucien Iighter, who is a comedian and

571
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: worked for Raymond, talks about how when he came to

572
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: Massachusetts to do the show, he discovers it to things

573
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: that would could never tell on stage, but would we

574
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: work in animation And if I could think of one

575
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: of those, would be very waiting to hear what that was. Well, Jonathan,

576
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Aren't you

577
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: going to ask me any questions that might reveal my

578
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: personality type. That's actually have we done the route have you? Yeah?

579
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: Well we'll assess that after this. Have you heard any

580
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: of the just out of curiosity? Um, not really part

581
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: of this interview. Have you heard any of Paula pound

582
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: Stones new show? Oh? Just a minute of it. I'm

583
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: so happy she's doing a new show. She's one of

584
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: my heroes, Paula Poundson. Yeah, but they do that on

585
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: on her show. She's one of that. She's one of

586
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: three people, three comedians who have made me lie down

587
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: on the floor because I can't walk anywhere because I'm laughing.

588
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: So who were the other two? Well, John Benjamin actually

589
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: has maybe faint twice, it's the whole other time. And

590
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: then the combination of Laura and Sarah Silverman made me

591
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: lie down on in traffic in Los Angeles. Didn't just hard? Jonathan,

592
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being on part time Genius. Hope

593
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: everyone will check out the newest season of Dr Kat's

594
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: Professional Therapist on Audible. Thanks so much, Jonathan, Thank you.

595
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: So it's time to talk about the big one, the

596
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: mother daughter of all personality tests Myers Briggs, Myers Briggs. Right,

597
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: So most people know at least a little of the

598
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: origin story Myers Briggs was developed by this very close

599
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: mother daughter pair, Katherine Briggs and Isabel Briggs Myers and

600
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: Catherine was fascinated with people and understanding them, and she

601
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: craved time in her study like she put her kids

602
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: to bed, then she'd be reading and scrawling notes through

603
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: the night. And for birthdays or anniversaries, all she wanted

604
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: was more filing cabinets to store her papers. She sounds

605
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: pretty organized. Yeah, she was super passionate about it, but

606
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: she really dug in when she met her future son

607
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: in law and couldn't quite understand him. Like she'd been

608
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: reading Young and realized Young's rough observances on personalities could

609
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: be useful in sorting people, and together with her daughter,

610
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: she added the judging perception letter to the personality scheme

611
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: and it just took off. I mean that's the very

612
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: abridged version. Well, and she was so good about making

613
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: her ideas appealing from the start, Like in the mid

614
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, Briggs wrote on an article for the New

615
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: Republic called Meets Yourself using the Personality paint Box, which

616
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: doesn't really sound that much different from What Color is

617
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: Your Parachute? Or other books that would come out in

618
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: later years. Exactly she was like this born Marketer and

619
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: Isabelle too, like she managed to build off of the scheme.

620
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: She used these distinct personality types as characters in a

621
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: detective novel and want a big deal publishing contests, like

622
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: partially based on the idea that different personality types working

623
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: together would be really more efficient and together. They really

624
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: developed this test not just to understand others, but to

625
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: help women find the best and most efficient jobs during

626
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: wartime when men were away. It's pretty amazing, actually, like

627
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: these two educated women were forced into life as housewives,

628
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: and they were determined to do important work and have

629
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: a larger impact on society. But what's interesting is that

630
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: Young didn't love the test. For instance, while he was

631
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: happy for the fangirl attention they gave him, he warned

632
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: Briggs from the get go that it was dangerous to

633
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: use his untested ideas and to apply them to things

634
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: like child rearing or sorting personalities. And he even wrote

635
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: every individual is an exception to the rule. Wow, which

636
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: seems kind of odd, right, Like he wasn't flattered by

637
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: the fact that they were built on his ideas. He

638
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: really wasn't you know, he didn't believe in a pure

639
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: binary of things, like a pure extrovert or a pure introvert,

640
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: even said such a man would be in the lunatic asylum.

641
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: But that didn't stop the Myers Briggs ascendency. By the

642
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: mid twentieth century, the test was so popular it was

643
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: being licensed by the Educational Testing Service Well and today

644
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: it's a behemous so Vox reported that over two million

645
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: people still take the official test annually and that company

646
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: nets over twenty million dollars a year plus. It's basically

647
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: spawned this cottage industry of knockoffs, right like some of

648
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: the which Sex and the City character are you? Or

649
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: which Game of Thrones character are you? There basically reporting

650
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: that you're a Miranda because you're an I N T J,

651
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: or you're a Tyrian Lanister because you're an E N

652
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 1: T P. But by the way, you're a total Miranda.

653
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: Jay Z and I both take that as a compliment.

654
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: So you're right. The company is extremely healthy, but there

655
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: is petition, and over the years, Myers Briggs has come

656
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: under some criticism for being too sunny like because there

657
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: are no bad types, it might not be accurately reflecting

658
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: your weaknesses or sorting for those Slytherin qualities. As Young

659
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: points out, it gets criticism for being all black and

660
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: white with little gray. If introversion and extra version are

661
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: actually a bell curve, which is what psychiatrists seemed to

662
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 1: think it is, there's a lot of space in there

663
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,959
Speaker 1: for people to share both qualities, and none of that's

664
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: actually reflected in the results. Well. Also, Myers Briggs is

665
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: frequently cited for inspiring the Barnum effect, which is basically,

666
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: if you say anything vague and complimentary enough, kind of

667
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: like horoscopes, people will think it applies to them. Well,

668
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: not to like pile on them. But one more criticism

669
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: is that it's been called classist in the past. And

670
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, the site the Conversation pointed to some of

671
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: the questions in the test, like do you like to

672
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: chat with clerks, hairdressers, porters, et cetera, which is, and

673
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm quoting the site, a test of introversion extra vision,

674
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: but it rather presumes that the people taking the test

675
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: will not be the one serving, carrying bags or cutting hair. Yeah. Yeah,

676
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: Now we've spent a good bit of time on this

677
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: episode pointing out the flaws of personality test. Phrenology is

678
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: obviously quackery and something like the mmp I was initially

679
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: created as this mental diagnostic test for specific conditions, which

680
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: made sense, but then it was applied to understand full

681
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: personalities and Myers Briggs is too optimistic and horoscopy at times.

682
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: But back to the original question, why do we use

683
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: personality test and what's the real worth of them? You know,

684
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: we did so much reading on the topic and I

685
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: had the same question. It's funny. Malcolm Gladwell had this

686
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: old great piece where he was talking about the ineptness

687
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: of personality tests and he came up with his own

688
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: binary test to analyze people. Oh yeah, I know, I

689
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: saw this. So he made up his own version of

690
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: the Myers Briggs with categories like are you a gobbler

691
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: or a nibbler of information? Are you more of a

692
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: canine or a feline in a relationship? Which I love

693
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: because like do you meet your partner at the door

694
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: with a wagging tail? Or do you fly hard to

695
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: get in? Are you all moody? So I get Gladwell's

696
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: point about the ridiculousness is of this, but think about

697
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: that Walt Whitman example. I mean his personality test, however fraudulent,

698
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: it might have been convinced one of America's greatest poets

699
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: to follow his passion. And if you're getting a sunny

700
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: diagnosis that encourages you to believe you're great and that

701
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 1: you can do great things and that there's a place

702
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: for you in this big, confusing world, there's worth in that, right,

703
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like the original it gets better campaign. Well, definitely.

704
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: I mean, on the other hand, you wouldn't want someone

705
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: boxed into a professional or emotional corner, right, Like your

706
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: friend you were talking about that went to an Indian astrologer. Yeah,

707
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: he sent his chart off and he's this brilliant PhD

708
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: computer scientist, and the astrologer studied his times and came

709
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: back and told him his only viable option in life

710
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: was to be a farmer. But speaking of these tests,

711
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: I called up a PhD Bindu methic column whose assistant

712
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: director of Clinical Training at Chestnut Hill College, and I

713
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: asked her about the worth of personality tests in the

714
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: studies personality, and specifically she studies perfectionism. But when I

715
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: asked her about the popularity of the tests and the

716
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: potential for misuse. I was just kind of expecting her

717
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: to validate what we're saying and say they're all hocum.

718
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: But here's been the talking on the subject. Looking at

719
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: personality and psychology, you're looking at the individual differences of

720
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: a person UM. So if you think about even the

721
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: origins of what personality means, you know comes from persona,

722
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: which in Latin means masks, right, and so you're not

723
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: just looking at what the person where the individuals showing

724
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: other people, but what's underneath, right? What what doesn't get shown? UM?

725
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: And so it's more complex and it's influenced by a

726
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: variety of different factors. So you know, for example, childhood experiences,

727
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: family system, culture, socio political climate, UM. All these factors

728
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: can influence one's personality. And personality tests are used UM

729
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: to get more information about the individual to help with

730
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: maybe treatment goals, maybe to clarify a particular question or

731
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: an issue so you can see what will be helpful

732
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: for the person in treatment. UM. It is a part

733
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: of what is used to get more thorough holistic look

734
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: at the person UM and it's you know used, Uh,

735
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: these tests have been normed and validated. You don't want

736
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: to just take it and think that that is the

737
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: end result. Right. You want to use it in conjunction

738
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: with therapy, or you want to use it in conjunction

739
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: with maybe other tasks to give you a broader sense

740
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: of what's happening. Right, And if you take it, you know,

741
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: during one point in your life, you might have different

742
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: experiences the versus you know, another time in your life.

743
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: I know personally, you know my training and my experience.

744
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: UM I've used uh the Myers Briggs and m M

745
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: p I um you know, for for example, I think

746
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: the Myers Briggs has used a lot in career counseling. Um.

747
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: If so it's used to as as one way to

748
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: think about what might be a good career fit for

749
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: an individual. And UM, I know it's used a lot

750
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: now in schools to help of you know, students decide

751
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: on majors and what, you know, what might be a

752
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: good fit for them in terms of uh course of

753
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: study for them. Well that's really interesting. So we've been

754
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: talking about it like personality tests are comprehensive, but really

755
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: they're just one tool and an arsenal exactly like we

756
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: as humans in this golden age of convenience, Like we

757
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: want a quick, one test life hack for complete understanding

758
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: of ourselves. And it would be great if there was

759
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: a marshmallow that could tell us if and how we

760
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: were going to be successful. But I think part of

761
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: the danger is trying to take these things too seriously

762
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: on your own, Like it's almost like self diagnosing yourself

763
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: on web m D. You might have some success rate,

764
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: but it's better to visit someone who looks at this

765
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: for a profession. And obviously these tests are also evolving

766
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: and have evolved over the years, right I mean, And

767
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: there are newer tests to like the ones that measure

768
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: for the five personality types, which supposedly give you more

769
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: of an honest analysis of your traits and may even

770
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: evolve to a test on a sixth trade, which, according

771
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: to new scientists, will shed light on how much of

772
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: a schemer you are and how machiavellian your personality is

773
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: a Slytherin scale, And of course, like Walter Michelle was saying,

774
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: your personality has room to change. According to New scientists,

775
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: one US study showed that divorce can make women more

776
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: extroverted and open to new experiences, and big life changes

777
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: aren't the only thing. Like exposure to just four to

778
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: eight weeks of psychotherapy has been shown to decrease neuroticism

779
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: and increase extra version. That said, I know now we

780
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 1: shouldn't be reading too much into these personality tests without

781
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: the help of a professional, but I do think there's

782
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: one thing we can manage safely on our own, the

783
00:43:47,920 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: part time genius fact off. Yeah yeah, all right, Well

784
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: here's one to kick this off. One of the most

785
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: curious psychology tests, the rorschak, actually has a surprisingly strange origin.

786
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: Before it was used as a psychiatric evaluation tool, it

787
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: was a parlor game used for people's amusement. In fact,

788
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: it predates the roar shock by about a hundred years.

789
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: And get this, the ink blots were used for fortune

790
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: telling and to inspire menacing poetry. So, speaking of rorshok,

791
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: did you know that after World War two, two American

792
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: psychologists got access to prominent Nazis like Rudolf Hess and

793
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: Hermann Goring actually in their cells in Nuremberg, and when

794
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: they showed ink blots to them, the Nazis obliged with

795
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: these incredibly vivid responses. In one in plot, Hess saw

796
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: quote two men talking about a crime with blood on

797
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: their mind. God Another prisoner claimed that he saw a

798
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: bear with teeth and legs and shadows, which represents Bullshevism

799
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: overrunning Europe. Like, that's so specific. And of course these

800
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: answers probably gave the roor Shock more credence than it

801
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: deserved in deciphering people's traits and their tendencies. And some

802
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: psychologists actually refer to the test as Dracula because no

803
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: one's been able to drive a stake through the curse

804
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: thing's heart. That's pretty crazy. So all right, so here's

805
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: one you might remember from the mental Flaws days, but

806
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: I'd completely forgotten about it. Did you know that from

807
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: the forties to the sixties, at most ivy League schools

808
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: and top tier colleges, freshmen were required to pose naked

809
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: their nude portraits somewhere of people like George Bush and

810
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: Diane Sawyer because the psychologist named William Herbert Sheldon believed

811
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: you could decipher a person's intelligence and potential success based

812
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: on their body types. The Nine Life did a cover

813
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: story on the project, and the tobacco industry use the

814
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: pictures to study men and masculinity. Okay, so one last

815
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: Roar Shock fact, because I can't help myself. As Annie

816
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: Murphy Paul points out, when psychologists asked what might this be,

817
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: the only truly logical answer is an ink plot, But

818
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: according to her, generally only severely mentally ill people give it.

819
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: All right, here's what I think you'll like. While classical

820
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: music and heavy metals seem completely dissimilar, according to Adrian North,

821
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: the professor in Edinburgh, the psychological profiles of people who

822
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: listen to classical or heavy metal are almost identical. Obviously

823
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: they tend to be for different age groups, but partially

824
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: it's about the music itself. Both are very grand and

825
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: emotionally dramatic, and also take a certain amount of mental

826
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: openness to embrace and appreciate. That's crazy and so good.

827
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna give you this round. And I really

828
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: hope no one's analyzing my personality based on my Spotify

829
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: playlist because my kids have run wild with that thing.

830
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: So you know, we haven't given anyone a part time

831
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: genius award this episode. All right. Well, I've actually been

832
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: thinking about this one, and I think we should give

833
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: it to Walter the marshmallow Man. Michelle, Oh, I actually

834
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: love that. I've been talking badly about his marshmallow experiment

835
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: forever and to realize that his test actually embraces the

836
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: idea that people can learn and change like that totally

837
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: made my day wonderful. All right, well, Walter, you'll be

838
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: added to our official Hall of Genius and we'll be

839
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: sending you a certificate in the mail, and if you

840
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: wait two weeks to open it, maybe we'll send you

841
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: another one. That's it for today's show. Thanks so much

842
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: for listening. You know what's amazing to look at is

843
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: how people analyze handwriting for personality. Apparently, if you place

844
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: the dot on your eyes too high, you're too Optimus

845
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: one to watch out for that. Thanks again for listening.

846
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works

847
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do

848
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even again to understand. Christa

849
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme

850
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 1: song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Gary Rowland

851
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gay Bluesier is our lead researcher,

852
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan

853
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams and he's Jeff Coo gets the

854
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like

855
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe. And if you

856
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave

857
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do we forget Jason?

858
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: Jason who