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Speaker 1: Bushkin. Hey everybody, it's me Debbie cameou Bell. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: episode nine nine, almost ten of the podcast Who's with Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, w camal Bell. Before we get started,

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Speaker 1: follow me on my substack, also called Who's with Me?

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Speaker 1: I keep forgetting to mention that this podcast was a

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Speaker 1: spin off of my substack substack. If you don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is, it's just a fancy way of saying newsletter.

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Speaker 1: But if you can follow, the link will be here.

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Speaker 1: If you follow me there, you will be able to

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Speaker 1: keep up with everything I'm doing in a much more

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Speaker 1: efficient way than how social media does things. Uh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also called Who's with Me? This is called Who's with Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to keep things brand consistent. Also stand up comedy.

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Speaker 1: If you want to come see me do some stand

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Speaker 1: up comedy. This is all in the fall. September twenty fifth,

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Speaker 1: it's Stanford, Connecticut at the New York Comedy Club. It's

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Speaker 1: in Stamford. I said Stanford last time. Stamford, Connecticut, New

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Speaker 1: York Comedy Club, October first, stan Ford, Stanford University at

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Speaker 1: the Memorial Autorium October first, So Stanford on one out

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Speaker 1: of the country and then Stanford University a little bit later,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm doing Bellingham, Washington at the Mountain Baker

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Speaker 1: Theater or November thirteenth, So there will probably be more

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Speaker 1: dates to come, assuming that you guys want to see me.

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Speaker 1: Also feel free to say in wherever you're getting this

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Speaker 1: down in the comments where you'd like to come see

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Speaker 1: me do stand up comedy. I had a guy on

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Speaker 1: the street today. I was walking heading to my office

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Speaker 1: and the guy said, hey, man, I'm a big fan,

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Speaker 1: said thanks, Agains, do more stand up. I was like, okay, sir,

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Speaker 1: I'll do more stand up. So I'll have to do

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Speaker 1: more stand up because that guy insisted on it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what else is going on? This is episode nine of

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Speaker 1: Who's with Me? My guest today is Eddie Huong. Eddie

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Speaker 1: is a author, a just a general writer. He's also

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Speaker 1: on substack. Follow him on substack. He's a restaurant tour

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Speaker 1: has Boo House in Manhattan. He's also just kind of

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Speaker 1: a just a bon vivant and you know, doesn't mind

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Speaker 1: stirring up some shit. You know. He's an fob friend

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Speaker 1: of Boordain, not friend of Bill Clinton, friend of Boordain.

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Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about our relationships with Andie Bourdain.

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Speaker 1: He was closer with him than I am. And we

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Speaker 1: talk about his book, his first novel called Come Undone,

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Speaker 1: which is out now, you can get it right now.

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Speaker 1: And then later actually had a conversation with Eddie through

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Speaker 1: City Arts and Lectures out here in the Bay Area

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Speaker 1: about the book. Again, so it's two different conversations with

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Speaker 1: Eddie about his book, but because they were sort of

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Speaker 1: a few weeks apart, they're just different. So I would

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Speaker 1: recommend going to both of them. And the one at

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Speaker 1: City Arts and Lecturers was actually in front of an

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Speaker 1: audience of people who were Rabbit Eddie Wong fans. It

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Speaker 1: was cool to see. Yeah, so Come Undone, it's all

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Speaker 1: right now. It's his first novel, And I would say

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Speaker 1: that Eddie doesn't care if the book is not for you.

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Speaker 1: This is not a beach read for everybody. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of a modern when Harry met Sally's story but told

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Speaker 1: more from the dude's perspective, and the dude in this

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Speaker 1: case is Eddie Huang. It is semi autobiographical. There are

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Speaker 1: details that are many of the details are changed, but

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Speaker 1: it's about a guy like him. So if you like Eddie,

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Speaker 1: then you're likely to like the book. And as he knows,

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Speaker 1: if you don't like Eddie, he's gonna say, then don't

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Speaker 1: get this book. So yeah, So I like an artist

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Speaker 1: who's like, this is what I do. If it's not

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Speaker 1: for you, that's fine. I think I'm like that, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not as much like that as Eddie is. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was great to talk to Eddie. At the end, though,

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Speaker 1: I just want to say trigger warning. We do talk

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Speaker 1: about domestic violence in some detail. Eddie has dealt with

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Speaker 1: domestic violence in his life through his parents. His dad,

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Speaker 1: as he talks about, has abused his mom, and Eddie

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Speaker 1: has a lot of thoughts about that issue because he's

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Speaker 1: been the child in a family where that was happening,

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Speaker 1: a child whose mom said, don't call the cops. And

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Speaker 1: Eddie also felt like he didn't want to call the

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Speaker 1: cops because, as many people know, especially people of color,

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Speaker 1: black people and just people Asian people, brown people, Latino people,

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Speaker 1: the cops don't always come to our house to help

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Speaker 1: even when we want them to. So any number of stories,

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Speaker 1: especially of black people, that I can think of a

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Speaker 1: black people calling the cops just for help and then

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Speaker 1: ending up dead. So he's got thoughts about are there

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Speaker 1: ways to make to create a situation where families can

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Speaker 1: deal with domestic violence in a way that de escalates

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Speaker 1: instead of escalates, and the first thing is to break

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Speaker 1: up the family. And I get this stuff. It's controversial,

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Speaker 1: hard to talk about, and I'm no expert on it.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to be clear, I'm not an

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Speaker 1: expert on this. We're talking about it. But if you

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Speaker 1: are dealing with domestic violence, there's a National Domestic Violence

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Speaker 1: Hotline eight hundred and seventy nine nine seven to two

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Speaker 1: three three where you can text begin b E G

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Speaker 1: I N to eight eight seven eight eight. This is

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Speaker 1: all I got right now. If you know other domestic

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Speaker 1: violence services that you think are good, please drop them

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Speaker 1: down in the comments and maybe we'll talk about them

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Speaker 1: in upcoming weeks. But again I talked to Eddie when

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Speaker 1: he because he didn't have a specific cause, he wanted

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Speaker 1: to shout out or anybody's doing work, he understand. So

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Speaker 1: I bring up to Eddie the Anti Police Terror Project,

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Speaker 1: which is a project that is against police terror. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the conversation around the fund the police came

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Speaker 1: out of them. And if that idea scares you. Just

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Speaker 1: remember they're just saying, let's allocate police resources to other areas.

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Speaker 1: In most cities, please get like fifty percent of the

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Speaker 1: budget or more. And we're saying, hey, not all that

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Speaker 1: money should go to the police. There are also other

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Speaker 1: social services that can go to that would prevent the

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Speaker 1: need for police at all. So yes, please Anti Police

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Speaker 1: Terror Project check them out. And they have a service

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Speaker 1: out here in Oakland called Image First, which is a project.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be what they say a project of

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Speaker 1: an anti police terror project is a cutting new model

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Speaker 1: for non police response to mental health crisis. The goal

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Speaker 1: of Image First's respond to mental health crises, including but

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Speaker 1: not limited to, psychiatric emergencies, substance you support, and domestic

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Speaker 1: violence safety planning. So they're even talking about domestic bonds

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Speaker 1: in there. But obviously, like if you're in an abusive relationship,

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Speaker 1: maybe call them. They can help you get ready or

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Speaker 1: plan or figure out ways around this, throughround this or

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Speaker 1: through this this problem. So again, this is just in

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Speaker 1: Oakland because it's a free hotline five one oh nine

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Speaker 1: nine nine nine MH one as in letters M and

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Speaker 1: then the number one and then on Wednesdays through Sundays

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Speaker 1: from eight pm to twelve am. And again it's just

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Speaker 1: a pilot program. They're working on it. Obviously they'd like

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Speaker 1: it to be longer hours. And I'm sure there are

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Speaker 1: programs like that around the country. I'm just not aware

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Speaker 1: of them. Again, drop them into comments, let people know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and also I talked about the organization I'm

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Speaker 1: on the board of directors of Live Free that is

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Speaker 1: run by my friend pastor Micaml McBride. It is a

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Speaker 1: national organization and what they do is they're trying to

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Speaker 1: end mass incarceration and gun violence. And they are connected

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Speaker 1: to violence interrupters, which I think would also be helpful

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Speaker 1: in these situations, people who just show up to interrupt

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Speaker 1: the violence, not to escalate the violence. So we talked

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Speaker 1: about this episode about the escalation and the need for

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Speaker 1: more de escalation in these situations. But it's again, if

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Speaker 1: it is not for you, you will hear when I

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Speaker 1: ask Eddie about a cause or think anything he wants

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Speaker 1: to support, that's when we go into it. So if

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Speaker 1: it's not for you, you please check out then. But

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Speaker 1: the rest of the episode is just a real dynamic,

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Speaker 1: fun conversation. Again, we talk a lot about Anthony Bourdain.

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Speaker 1: We talk about Eddie very famously was one of the

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Speaker 1: producers and had the show Fresh off the Boat, the

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Speaker 1: ABC sitcom about an Asian American family based on his

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Speaker 1: book Fresh Off the Boat, and he very famously said

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Speaker 1: it was not a good show, I think before even

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Speaker 1: the first episode aired and called it out. And so

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Speaker 1: we talk about the process of being an artist who's

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Speaker 1: saying my art is not being respected, even if saying

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Speaker 1: that is going to hurt your bottom line. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: it's a great conversation. Enjoy my conversation with Eddie wog Hey.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for watching an episode of Who's with Me. If

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Speaker 1: you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that

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Speaker 1: hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share,

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Speaker 1: hit the hyph button. Thank you. I mean it's great.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't. I'm only good at like the sitting down

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Speaker 1: and talking part. I'm not good at any of the

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Speaker 1: other that's like, yeah, yeah, I'm good at that and

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Speaker 1: and handing my credit card over to But I'm not

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Speaker 1: good at the you know, sometimes that's painful. But I'm

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Speaker 1: not good at the whatever Alex is doing over there.

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Speaker 1: I'm not good.

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Speaker 2: No I can't do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can do it, even when I did. You

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Speaker 1: must have done Maren's podcast. Yeah yeah, yeah, even Maren's

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Speaker 1: I give him credit for like he's there doing all

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Speaker 1: the things and because he's I mean, he can't do it. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: Maren is like he's retired right from the podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just put out an Instagram reel saying people thought

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Speaker 1: he retired from everything. I was like, no, no, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: still on the road and still working actor. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it's just weird to not have him for like, you know,

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Speaker 1: ten years. He was just in the conversation always. Yeah. No.

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Speaker 2: Mark just seems like one of those guys too that

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Speaker 2: like needs to be in the comedy club. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: like he needs to be in there.

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Speaker 1: Well that's I talked. He talked about this a lot,

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Speaker 1: but he actually he could not ever be in a

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Speaker 1: comedy club and just do his shows in like theaters.

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Speaker 1: But he likes the grimy, underground, heckler people who don't

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Speaker 1: know who he is that he has to win over

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Speaker 1: or alienate. He likes that aspect of stand up comedy

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Speaker 1: that I have, no I have, I left that behind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a purist in a lot of ways

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Speaker 2: with him.

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Speaker 1: I do too, and I've known him hit Like, it's

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Speaker 1: just a weird fact. I was the most booked guest

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Speaker 1: on WTF, but it just I mean, nobody would know that,

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Speaker 1: but like because I got there early and he generally

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Speaker 1: interviewed people once. Yeah, so, but I ended up getting

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Speaker 1: on there like three times as a legit interview and

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Speaker 1: then just a couple of other weird yeah wow, because

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Speaker 1: he had last time he had me on was he

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Speaker 1: called me I had done my doc on Bill Cosby.

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Speaker 1: I was texting him about it and he was like,

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Speaker 1: because he'd mentioned it on the podcast he'd interviewed Chris Spencer,

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Speaker 1: and I said, thanks for mentioning it. He's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you want to come on to talk about it? Of course,

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Speaker 1: and so I put I was we were talking about

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Speaker 1: numbers earlier. Does that put me up? Yeah? Well I

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Speaker 1: love Mark.

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Speaker 2: Mark was one Mark is was one of my favorite

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Speaker 2: podcasters all as I'm comics too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just incredible. No, this podcast is not meant in

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Speaker 1: any way replace him, but I do feel like it's

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Speaker 1: it was good to have a space of that kind

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Speaker 1: of comedian in the podcast. Yes, you know who was

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Speaker 1: like not afraid to call balls and strikes and not

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Speaker 1: afraid to call out his his community when things were like, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing out there? No?

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Speaker 2: He really, I feel was the gold standard of like

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Speaker 2: podcast with a liberal mind, yeah, but not following liberal politics.

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Speaker 2: And I think we missed that. You need that. I

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Speaker 2: think Ronnie Chang does a really good job too. But

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Speaker 2: Mark and Ronnie and Trevor Noah, They're the guys that

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Speaker 2: I always look to and I'm like, where are they

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Speaker 2: at right now? What are they thinking?

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Speaker 1: Like a liberal mind but not but not a party line.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're not. You're not playing the game. You're

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Speaker 2: kind of watching and commenting on it and hoping that

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Speaker 2: the game ends up helping more people than it hurts.

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Speaker 1: And not wanting to be best friends with the rose

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Speaker 1: in power even if you agree with them. You don't

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Speaker 1: want to be best friends with the people in power.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like a on that, like the Correspondence dinner

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Speaker 2: doesn't look like the place I want to see. That

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Speaker 2: don't look fun.

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Speaker 1: From the first moment I heard about it, I was like,

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Speaker 1: and I saw the community were hosted, I remember, I

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Speaker 1: think you know I was. I never even before I

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Speaker 1: was anyway any before anybody would want me there. I

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Speaker 1: never wanted to be there. And then when I got

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Speaker 1: a little more known, people like come out below. I

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Speaker 1: was like, absolutely not. I read public was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I'm on a list, but I'd like

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Speaker 1: to be taking off the list if i'm want because

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Speaker 1: there's something about being that close to it that unless

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Speaker 1: you go in there like Colbert did years ago where

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Speaker 1: he just called George W. Bush out to his face,

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Speaker 1: it always seemed a little bit like are we a

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Speaker 1: little bit too comfortable here? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And no, definitely. It's like in your forties, when you

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Speaker 2: look back at your career and stuff, you're able to

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Speaker 2: see things like how you just said, like Mark belongs

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Speaker 2: in a comedy club. He enjoys that environment. Like me.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was in the kitchen when I

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Speaker 2: was young, I was so tired, my feet hurt, back hurt,

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Speaker 2: I had two herding eated discs. I just wanted to

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Speaker 2: be out. But once I went to Hollywood, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I actually belong in a kitchen. I

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Speaker 2: feel the best there. That's my environment. Yeah, and like

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Speaker 2: the Hollywood shit really isn't for me.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have been very famous and clear about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've been very clear from very early.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And uh so, first of all, I start out by

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Speaker 1: giving people their flowers, oh, because I you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't just want to invite anybody to this podcast space.

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Speaker 1: And but also most people I have like I know

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but you I only know from your

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Speaker 1: work and a couple of times we've connected on the

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Speaker 1: over the internet somehow. Yeah, but I just appreciate for

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Speaker 1: good batter and different how clear you are about your

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Speaker 1: life and career, thanks man, and about what you and

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Speaker 1: about who you're with and who you're not with. The

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Speaker 1: podcast is with me. You're very clear. Sometimes you get

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Speaker 1: called out for it being you know, like you know,

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Speaker 1: being clear, and you have to you know whatever, But

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Speaker 1: it's just very You just seem to have a very

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Speaker 1: clear sit of who you are and you're not gonna

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Speaker 1: let especially as someone who's in Hollywood ish, you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna let Hollywood change that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I know who I am. I have a strong

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Speaker 2: sense of like morality and justice of my own compass.

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Speaker 2: And it's funny because my wife will meet people that

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Speaker 2: like just begin working with me or like new friends,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, does he really mean what he says.

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Speaker 2: She's like, Yo, if he's saying it, he really means it. Like,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about that, dude, you.

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Speaker 1: Don't have to be like, I wonder what he meant

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Speaker 1: by that. He meant what he said. What's the subtext?

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Speaker 1: There's no subtext. That's not it's just text.

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Speaker 2: That's not the worst part for like friends failure. My

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Speaker 2: wife sometimes like, oh, it was that blunt. It was

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Speaker 2: that blunt, Like I wish you could maybe not say

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Speaker 2: it so directly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe because I I mean one thing, I

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Speaker 1: maneuver through a lot of spaces, as I sure you do.

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Speaker 1: And I and I'm sort of known for like I'll

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Speaker 1: turn it up, I'll turn it down just because I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to. Also, as a giant black dude, I'm always wondering.

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Speaker 1: I'm always walking to their room, like is everybody cool?

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Speaker 1: Giant black dude here by cool? So I'm always taking

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Speaker 1: a temperature.

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Speaker 2: I could think it's Ben Wallace, you know, yes, no, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you I mean code switching, I think is a fact

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Speaker 2: of life for immigrants and any anyone who's just different

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Speaker 2: in this country, Like you.

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Speaker 1: Have to but you don't seem to code switch.

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Speaker 2: I'm lucky because I'm a short, fat Chinese dude, So

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Speaker 2: no one's really scared.

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Speaker 1: No one's worrying about it. So you're come to be

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Speaker 1: loud and whatever you want to say, because ultimately, whereas

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Speaker 1: sometimes if I'm just standing in the corner being quiet,

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Speaker 1: why is that giant black dude quiet in the corner?

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Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, it's like that Macintosh knapsack of privileged

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Speaker 2: thing that they had everybody study in college. But I

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Speaker 2: always looked at it like, all right, so I have

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Speaker 2: disadvantages about how do you play your disadvantages to advantages?

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Speaker 2: And one was just like, no matter what I do,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to be threatening to people.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, cool, and do you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're not threatening to you?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so unless you work in the kitchen

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Speaker 2: with me.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like your your pen game is threatening, right,

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Speaker 1: thank You know the thing, the thing you sort of

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Speaker 1: like when you're here's what I feel, or here's what

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Speaker 1: I feel, or here's what I feel. You know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely people have come like old friends, you know,

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Speaker 2: like Tony Bourdain would comment to me like when we

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Speaker 2: would hang out, He's like, yeah, I don't want it

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Speaker 2: with you man.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you know, Fourty is saying that that's that's because

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Speaker 1: people didn't want it with him, you know.

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Speaker 2: And we we really respected each other on that tip,

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Speaker 2: like we really got along on that, like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't want no smoke with you. You know.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever hear something come out of your mouth

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Speaker 1: or out of your pain and go, oh that may

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Speaker 1: I may have over edited, May that may have been

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Speaker 1: too far.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, No, it is always my wife or editor Chris Jackson.

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Speaker 1: Who is like the famous Chris Jackson.

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Speaker 2: He's the best. He's the best, and it's one of

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Speaker 2: the two of them. It's like, yo, true story, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna give it to you, because that the first the

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Speaker 2: way to get me to like backtrack or just like

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Speaker 2: to not say what's unnecessary is to acknowledge there's truth

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Speaker 2: in it.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Once the truth is acknowledged, I don't need to say it.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's frequently Mike and Chris Jackson and I have

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Speaker 2: a you know, another really good friend. I'd say he's

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Speaker 2: one of my best friends, Harold Rodgers, as a novelist.

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Speaker 2: I give Harold everything I read and he'll be like,

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Speaker 2: you know, you maybe should show it to the person.

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Speaker 1: Before you should let them see it before you air

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Speaker 1: them out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I show it to people. I always am.

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Speaker 2: I'd really try to be straightforward, like this is what

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. And you also seem to be in this work.

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Speaker 1: I know where your book is about to come out.

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Speaker 1: When it's come out, I'm excited. June sixteenth, June sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: so your book come undone. Seems you're also se to

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Speaker 1: be not afraid of entering into new spaces like you know,

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Speaker 1: you have you know, chef, you know, writer, you know,

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Speaker 1: writing a memoir, producing a TV show until you decided

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Speaker 1: that was not the thing for you. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and now a work of fiction. Yeah, I think I

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Speaker 1: would be afraid to be like, I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: go write a novel that you know, and I like

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Speaker 1: that seems like a lot to do. You know. That's

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Speaker 1: and you why is it that you weren't afraid or

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Speaker 1: were you afraid? How do you navigate that process?

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Speaker 2: So I feel like you will relate to it. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not pandering because you're here. But like I've said

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Speaker 2: this many times in people, the hardest thing I ever

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Speaker 2: did in my life and that I wanted to do

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Speaker 2: was stand up comedy. Stand up comedy the facts is

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Speaker 2: the illustart form because it's just on your back to

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Speaker 2: entertain a room of people and to like titillate them,

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Speaker 2: and very like Socrates Gadflyve Athens, I just I think

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Speaker 2: that's extremely dope, you know. Like the second thing to

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Speaker 2: me is the novel, because it's just writing. It's words

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Speaker 2: on a page. There's no visual. The visual has to

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Speaker 2: be created in the reader's mind and you have to

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Speaker 2: keep someone engaged for two hundred three hundred four hundred pages.

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Speaker 2: I just think that is an incredible human feat.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Even as a chef, which I love, I probably enjoy

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Speaker 2: cooking the most because it's so immediate and there's no

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Speaker 2: one else involved. But like, you know, you're being helped

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Speaker 2: by animals, the earth, and like you're using resources and

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Speaker 2: things to create this dish, like so much work has

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Speaker 2: already been done before you touch it. But with the

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Speaker 2: novel and stand up comedy, it's just on you to

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Speaker 2: like awaken people and make them curious. So just as

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Speaker 2: a kid, I told myself I would always attempt stand

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Speaker 2: up comedy and I was gonna try my hand at

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Speaker 2: the novel, and I had no idea if I'd be good.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't made no assumptions. I just knew I wanted

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Speaker 2: to try.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And so that's been in since a kid.

401
00:18:50,784 --> 00:18:52,664
Speaker 1: Those two things. It's funny because those are two very

402
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Speaker 1: different art forms. I would say it's probably a pretty

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Speaker 1: low percentage of standing comedians who have written novels, just

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Speaker 1: because one is very immediate response that you sort of

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Speaker 1: go on stage you say, people ask me, You're like yay,

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Speaker 1: whereas the novel is like, you know, how long did

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Speaker 1: you write this novel?

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Speaker 2: For example, this so this one. I started it on

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Speaker 2: a plane coming back from London to New York in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, okay, And I wrote three versions of

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Speaker 2: this novel, three full different versions of the novel wow,

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Speaker 2: And each one was written. The first two versions of

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Speaker 2: the novel were written between two to three weeks. And

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Speaker 2: then Chris Jackson gives me notes and tears it up

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Speaker 2: and it's basically like this is ass. And and then

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Speaker 2: i'd rewrite it and he's like, why'd you rewrite? I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you said it was ass. He's like, no, there's like

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00:19:37,624 --> 00:19:39,344
Speaker 2: a lot of good stuff I'm like, well, you should

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Speaker 2: say that, you should let me know.

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Speaker 1: You just went a completely different direction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And all three times I just threw out the

422
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Speaker 2: previous novel. But the third time I wrote it, I

423
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Speaker 2: knew the characters, I knew the story, I knew what

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Speaker 2: I wanted to say finally clearly, and I wrote it

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Speaker 2: in five days.

426
00:19:57,104 --> 00:20:01,344
Speaker 1: What is your I'm such a fan of craft what

427
00:20:01,504 --> 00:20:03,224
Speaker 1: is because I think people don't talk about it enough,

428
00:20:03,304 --> 00:20:05,824
Speaker 1: especially and it's you know, what is your process of

429
00:20:05,864 --> 00:20:08,263
Speaker 1: like five days? What do those five days look like? Like?

430
00:20:08,304 --> 00:20:10,544
Speaker 1: What are you? Are you staying up later, getting up early?

431
00:20:10,584 --> 00:20:12,904
Speaker 1: Are you like everybody be quiet? Are you rinting a

432
00:20:12,904 --> 00:20:13,664
Speaker 1: house in the hills?

433
00:20:13,704 --> 00:20:16,344
Speaker 2: What is the Yeah, the visual is mainly my wife

434
00:20:16,424 --> 00:20:20,144
Speaker 2: just dissatisfied with the lack of childcare help. I'm providing fair.

435
00:20:20,224 --> 00:20:22,224
Speaker 2: So that's the that's the image in that house.

436
00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:24,543
Speaker 1: Okay, So around you there's lots of year. You got

437
00:20:24,544 --> 00:20:26,104
Speaker 1: a kid and your wife, and your wife's chasing the

438
00:20:26,224 --> 00:20:28,744
Speaker 1: kid and a young kid, right yeah.

439
00:20:27,984 --> 00:20:28,944
Speaker 2: Yeah, two year old?

440
00:20:29,024 --> 00:20:30,504
Speaker 1: Oh so wow, that's nothing but chase.

441
00:20:30,784 --> 00:20:33,023
Speaker 2: You've got a lot of work to do. But you know,

442
00:20:33,184 --> 00:20:36,064
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a dickhead. I wake up at like six thirty.

443
00:20:36,144 --> 00:20:37,584
Speaker 2: If I know I need to write, I wake up

444
00:20:37,624 --> 00:20:41,064
Speaker 2: at six thirty. I go poop downstairs in the lobby.

445
00:20:42,304 --> 00:20:43,464
Speaker 1: Of your apartment building.

446
00:20:43,624 --> 00:20:46,344
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if I poop in the apartment, my wife's

447
00:20:46,384 --> 00:20:48,424
Speaker 2: gonna wake up, the kid's gonna wake up. Then I

448
00:20:48,424 --> 00:20:50,904
Speaker 2: can't get out. Okay, I slip out at six thirty.

449
00:20:51,104 --> 00:20:54,344
Speaker 2: Nobody knows I go poop downstairs. I go straight to

450
00:20:54,384 --> 00:20:56,104
Speaker 2: the conference room office.

451
00:20:55,784 --> 00:20:58,944
Speaker 1: Area of where you live. Yeah, okay, so not in

452
00:20:58,984 --> 00:21:01,424
Speaker 1: your not in your apartment, No, okay, I can't.

453
00:21:01,184 --> 00:21:03,344
Speaker 2: Do it in the apartment anymore. And you know, I

454
00:21:03,464 --> 00:21:06,544
Speaker 2: just black out for like eight to nine twelve hours sometimes.

455
00:21:07,144 --> 00:21:09,744
Speaker 1: And it's lunch ordered are you eating? Or is there coffee?

456
00:21:09,784 --> 00:21:10,864
Speaker 1: What's the beverage of choice?

457
00:21:11,144 --> 00:21:15,424
Speaker 2: Definitely coffee and gatorade. I just coffee, gatorade double fisting.

458
00:21:15,904 --> 00:21:19,464
Speaker 2: There's there's some type of lunch, dinner, one meal, okay,

459
00:21:19,984 --> 00:21:22,064
Speaker 2: I noticed it. If I eat too many meals, then

460
00:21:22,144 --> 00:21:23,304
Speaker 2: I get tired.

461
00:21:23,104 --> 00:21:23,624
Speaker 1: No for sure.

462
00:21:23,664 --> 00:21:26,264
Speaker 2: So it's a one meal thing, okay. And and then

463
00:21:26,504 --> 00:21:28,544
Speaker 2: you know, I just come home at night and.

464
00:21:28,504 --> 00:21:30,064
Speaker 1: What time is that? What time me coming home?

465
00:21:30,544 --> 00:21:33,144
Speaker 2: Probably I probably check in to eat the meal together

466
00:21:33,344 --> 00:21:36,224
Speaker 2: around like five, six, okay, and then I'm back out

467
00:21:36,504 --> 00:21:37,944
Speaker 2: if possible.

468
00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:40,144
Speaker 1: Back down if you can't, because once you go home,

469
00:21:40,184 --> 00:21:41,184
Speaker 1: it's hard to get out again.

470
00:21:41,304 --> 00:21:43,184
Speaker 2: It's hard to get out. You gotta do something. You

471
00:21:43,224 --> 00:21:45,824
Speaker 2: have to contribute in some way, like I gotta either

472
00:21:45,984 --> 00:21:48,944
Speaker 2: wash dishes, put the kid to bed, do something nice,

473
00:21:49,264 --> 00:21:52,464
Speaker 2: take something nice, you know, get passage out of the

474
00:21:52,544 --> 00:21:53,224
Speaker 2: apartment again.

475
00:21:53,264 --> 00:21:55,144
Speaker 1: Have contributed to us being a family.

476
00:21:55,344 --> 00:21:57,544
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It's just like if you make a lot

477
00:21:57,584 --> 00:22:00,584
Speaker 2: of money in this country, you should pay taxes. If

478
00:22:00,624 --> 00:22:02,904
Speaker 2: I got to write for nine hours, I should contribute something.

479
00:22:02,944 --> 00:22:05,504
Speaker 1: Decided to marry somebody and have a kid, you should

480
00:22:05,544 --> 00:22:07,784
Speaker 1: be you should. It's not just about putting a stack

481
00:22:07,824 --> 00:22:08,624
Speaker 1: of money on the table.

482
00:22:08,704 --> 00:22:11,624
Speaker 2: No, you have to contribute. You gotta contribue so that

483
00:22:11,624 --> 00:22:13,824
Speaker 2: that's my day. And I try to write it in

484
00:22:13,864 --> 00:22:16,024
Speaker 2: a five to six days because otherwise my mom, my

485
00:22:16,064 --> 00:22:17,624
Speaker 2: wife will just go to her mother's house.

486
00:22:17,784 --> 00:22:20,104
Speaker 1: Oh so the clock is like I got to write

487
00:22:20,144 --> 00:22:23,384
Speaker 1: this so that my wife doesn't start to resent me

488
00:22:23,504 --> 00:22:26,464
Speaker 1: in this book. Yeah okay, okay, yeah, I mean some

489
00:22:26,504 --> 00:22:28,344
Speaker 1: people may listen to think this sounds harsh, but as

490
00:22:28,344 --> 00:22:30,024
Speaker 1: a person who's living in creative life, you have to

491
00:22:30,064 --> 00:22:33,664
Speaker 1: learn how to make the especially when you're single. You

492
00:22:33,664 --> 00:22:35,904
Speaker 1: could just be creative like this for like six months

493
00:22:35,904 --> 00:22:39,624
Speaker 1: at a time, just staring into the sun, thinking about

494
00:22:39,664 --> 00:22:42,544
Speaker 1: like is it to the store or at the store.

495
00:22:42,584 --> 00:22:44,024
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, you realize as.

496
00:22:43,944 --> 00:22:46,424
Speaker 2: You're talking about craft, it's like when you're single, it's

497
00:22:46,504 --> 00:22:48,904
Speaker 2: so easy to create. You have all this time. But

498
00:22:48,984 --> 00:22:52,104
Speaker 2: I actually think the pressure of like, yo, your ass

499
00:22:52,144 --> 00:22:55,424
Speaker 2: needs to be at home by this time creates pressure

500
00:22:55,464 --> 00:22:58,464
Speaker 2: and boundaries to focus. Yeah, and I actually think I

501
00:22:58,584 --> 00:22:59,344
Speaker 2: make better work.

502
00:22:59,584 --> 00:23:01,824
Speaker 1: I think a lot of creat creative people feel this way,

503
00:23:02,024 --> 00:23:05,424
Speaker 1: that that some boundaries are helpful. Yeah that if you

504
00:23:05,544 --> 00:23:07,544
Speaker 1: It's like I think I think about like SNL all

505
00:23:07,544 --> 00:23:09,584
Speaker 1: the time, the fact that like we got to do

506
00:23:09,624 --> 00:23:12,224
Speaker 1: it next week, it we have to do it on Saturday,

507
00:23:12,544 --> 00:23:14,424
Speaker 1: so we got to come up with something. Yeah, And

508
00:23:14,504 --> 00:23:16,304
Speaker 1: you mean sometimes you're like and so people are hard

509
00:23:16,304 --> 00:23:17,984
Speaker 1: on using that, which I understand. But then it's like

510
00:23:18,184 --> 00:23:20,664
Speaker 1: if I see one funny sketch, I'm like, man, they

511
00:23:20,704 --> 00:23:21,624
Speaker 1: got it, they.

512
00:23:21,584 --> 00:23:24,664
Speaker 2: Got they got it. And it's like, you know, you

513
00:23:24,704 --> 00:23:27,263
Speaker 2: ever seen this brand fly by Jing. It's like a

514
00:23:27,344 --> 00:23:30,704
Speaker 2: Chinese sauce brand. Oh yes, yeah, so Jing she had

515
00:23:30,744 --> 00:23:33,904
Speaker 2: a Chinese sauce brand. But she now is an astrologer too,

516
00:23:34,344 --> 00:23:37,064
Speaker 2: So I got an astrology reading and it was like,

517
00:23:37,584 --> 00:23:40,424
Speaker 2: your relationship with your wife is going to create structure

518
00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:43,543
Speaker 2: and boundaries in your work. I'm like, absolutely has, and

519
00:23:43,544 --> 00:23:45,384
Speaker 2: they're like, she's also the source and I'm like that's

520
00:23:45,424 --> 00:23:48,864
Speaker 2: also true. Like so it's made it harder but better.

521
00:23:49,224 --> 00:23:54,944
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So the character, the character of your novel, Hubie, yeah,

522
00:23:55,144 --> 00:23:58,464
Speaker 1: seems to be in some way based on you. Yeah.

523
00:23:58,504 --> 00:24:01,504
Speaker 2: Auto fictional, no, for sure. I would say it's at.

524
00:24:01,664 --> 00:24:04,704
Speaker 1: I didn't want you to be like what why did

525
00:24:04,704 --> 00:24:06,904
Speaker 1: you get that? I mean he's like a guy TV

526
00:24:07,024 --> 00:24:14,864
Speaker 1: experience travel show chef, you know it can fair yes, yes,

527
00:24:15,304 --> 00:24:20,544
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, rough around the edges, yeah, uh, looking for love,

528
00:24:20,984 --> 00:24:22,464
Speaker 1: trying to not look for love in all the wrong

529
00:24:22,504 --> 00:24:26,624
Speaker 1: places anymore. Yeah, and making it hard on himself. Yes.

530
00:24:26,984 --> 00:24:29,864
Speaker 1: So when you sat down to write, was it did

531
00:24:29,904 --> 00:24:31,904
Speaker 1: it always? Was it always you? You have three different

532
00:24:31,944 --> 00:24:33,824
Speaker 1: versions of novel? Is it always a version of you?

533
00:24:34,024 --> 00:24:36,224
Speaker 1: Or is it ever like you know, a turtle in

534
00:24:36,264 --> 00:24:37,424
Speaker 1: the Amazon rainforest?

535
00:24:37,624 --> 00:24:42,184
Speaker 2: Yeah? So the original version, the Hubee character was like

536
00:24:42,904 --> 00:24:45,944
Speaker 2: a hit man to like take it outside of me.

537
00:24:46,384 --> 00:24:49,184
Speaker 2: I tried to start at like further away from me.

538
00:24:49,944 --> 00:24:54,504
Speaker 2: Then another the second version I'd say wasn't a hit Man,

539
00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:58,783
Speaker 2: but was like a David Dukovney Californication esque character.

540
00:24:59,024 --> 00:25:02,464
Speaker 1: I love the fact from hit Man. Yeah, like to

541
00:25:02,704 --> 00:25:04,424
Speaker 1: midlife crisis guys.

542
00:25:05,824 --> 00:25:08,504
Speaker 2: And then you know, my wife was reading versions of

543
00:25:08,544 --> 00:25:11,824
Speaker 2: it and she said, you know, I I really think

544
00:25:11,904 --> 00:25:14,664
Speaker 2: that the closer this character is to you, the better

545
00:25:14,824 --> 00:25:20,824
Speaker 2: this story is. And Chris Jackson actually agreed. Both your editors, yeah,

546
00:25:20,864 --> 00:25:23,904
Speaker 2: both my editors agreed. And at first I think it

547
00:25:23,944 --> 00:25:25,864
Speaker 2: was just that approaching the novel, I was like, it

548
00:25:25,904 --> 00:25:28,984
Speaker 2: needs to be completely fictional, it needs to be far away.

549
00:25:29,464 --> 00:25:34,224
Speaker 2: But then you realize that every novel I've ever loved

550
00:25:34,664 --> 00:25:38,224
Speaker 2: is a piece of the writer themselves. Like I think

551
00:25:38,384 --> 00:25:41,344
Speaker 2: fiction actually allows you to get closer to the truth

552
00:25:41,944 --> 00:25:45,984
Speaker 2: if you reveal yourself. So that was the third version.

553
00:25:46,024 --> 00:25:48,944
Speaker 2: I just brought it closer to me. The character is

554
00:25:48,984 --> 00:25:51,864
Speaker 2: closer to me, but it you know, fictional plot line.

555
00:25:51,944 --> 00:25:52,864
Speaker 1: And this is your first novel.

556
00:25:52,904 --> 00:25:56,384
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, this is my first novel.

557
00:25:55,784 --> 00:26:02,264
Speaker 1: So first of all, you know what I mean, Like, hey, everybody,

558
00:26:02,384 --> 00:26:03,824
Speaker 1: I think I wrote a novel.

559
00:26:03,944 --> 00:26:05,624
Speaker 2: Yeah, here it is, Yeah.

560
00:26:05,504 --> 00:26:08,904
Speaker 1: Here it is. Press literary press who's not known for

561
00:26:09,024 --> 00:26:12,344
Speaker 1: being a gentle and also the outsiders or somebody who's

562
00:26:12,344 --> 00:26:15,504
Speaker 1: perceived outside Also, they may have opinions about you already. Yes,

563
00:26:15,864 --> 00:26:17,584
Speaker 1: are you scared? Are you nervous? I mean you don't

564
00:26:17,584 --> 00:26:18,744
Speaker 1: seem to give a shit? Is it?

565
00:26:19,064 --> 00:26:21,864
Speaker 2: I'm I'm kind of like nonplus about it. And also

566
00:26:21,904 --> 00:26:25,664
Speaker 2: because like they give the advances to good Reads people like, look,

567
00:26:25,744 --> 00:26:27,984
Speaker 2: before anyone read it, I was like, I think it's good,

568
00:26:28,344 --> 00:26:30,864
Speaker 2: you know, but I've thought that way about everything, and

569
00:26:30,904 --> 00:26:33,304
Speaker 2: I have been blindsided at times like oh no, we

570
00:26:33,384 --> 00:26:36,624
Speaker 2: all get oh oh. I maybe didn't pay attention to that,

571
00:26:37,104 --> 00:26:43,544
Speaker 2: but you know, I think Chris is really extremely thorough. Again,

572
00:26:43,624 --> 00:26:45,824
Speaker 2: so it is my wife, and and since they've been

573
00:26:45,864 --> 00:26:48,424
Speaker 2: in my life, since the two of them have been

574
00:26:48,464 --> 00:26:51,064
Speaker 2: in my life, I do feel like they point out

575
00:26:51,104 --> 00:26:54,784
Speaker 2: a lot of my blind spots. So when the triumvirate

576
00:26:54,984 --> 00:26:58,904
Speaker 2: feels good, I don't worry, okay. And I've seen some

577
00:26:59,024 --> 00:27:02,224
Speaker 2: initial reviews from like Goodreads readers and they are kind

578
00:27:02,224 --> 00:27:04,104
Speaker 2: of nasty, but I'm like, you know what, I can

579
00:27:04,144 --> 00:27:06,704
Speaker 2: live with that criticism. I think that's fair criticism.

580
00:27:06,744 --> 00:27:08,344
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that because I just in part

581
00:27:08,344 --> 00:27:10,104
Speaker 1: of me getting ready for this is I actually looked

582
00:27:10,184 --> 00:27:11,664
Speaker 1: up I was like any review, and I ended up

583
00:27:11,664 --> 00:27:13,784
Speaker 1: on good Reads and it is very much like and

584
00:27:13,984 --> 00:27:17,944
Speaker 1: you might like this, like yeah, ruh, it's very like

585
00:27:18,104 --> 00:27:20,264
Speaker 1: it is, which is why there reviews. I think, Yeah,

586
00:27:20,264 --> 00:27:23,384
Speaker 1: it's just there, which that can be a sign of

587
00:27:23,424 --> 00:27:25,824
Speaker 1: compelling art. It also can be a sign of that

588
00:27:25,984 --> 00:27:27,864
Speaker 1: you have a specific audience for this. It's not a

589
00:27:27,944 --> 00:27:29,824
Speaker 1: it's not everybody's. It's not gonna be everybody's beach read

590
00:27:29,864 --> 00:27:31,864
Speaker 1: for the summer, but for some people it will be you.

591
00:27:31,904 --> 00:27:34,664
Speaker 2: Know, yes it's five stars or zero stars. Yeah, And

592
00:27:34,904 --> 00:27:38,584
Speaker 2: I actually think that is fantastic. Okay, I love that.

593
00:27:38,704 --> 00:27:40,784
Speaker 2: I don't like in the middle, I'm like, oh, this

594
00:27:40,864 --> 00:27:45,864
Speaker 2: is great because it's something. It's telling me that I accomplished.

595
00:27:45,864 --> 00:27:47,824
Speaker 2: What I sought out to do was tell a specific

596
00:27:47,904 --> 00:27:51,704
Speaker 2: story from a clear point of view, and either you

597
00:27:51,744 --> 00:27:52,944
Speaker 2: love it or you hate it.

598
00:27:53,344 --> 00:27:55,504
Speaker 1: And so strong feeling is proof that you were that

599
00:27:55,584 --> 00:27:58,504
Speaker 1: you did the did the job. Yeah, I think strong hate,

600
00:27:58,504 --> 00:27:59,104
Speaker 1: strong love.

601
00:27:59,584 --> 00:28:02,464
Speaker 2: Yeah. Truth is hard to deal with. And I think

602
00:28:02,584 --> 00:28:05,344
Speaker 2: at the core of whether it's comedy or writing or

603
00:28:05,384 --> 00:28:08,104
Speaker 2: any art, it's like you're just trying to bring people

604
00:28:08,144 --> 00:28:12,824
Speaker 2: closer to the truth through an exercise. And when things

605
00:28:12,864 --> 00:28:16,064
Speaker 2: are really truthful, it's like, ah, you could repel it

606
00:28:16,224 --> 00:28:16,864
Speaker 2: or you can be like.

607
00:28:18,424 --> 00:28:21,263
Speaker 1: And so are there moments in the book as a

608
00:28:21,264 --> 00:28:24,024
Speaker 1: writer that you because I can have not written a novel,

609
00:28:24,024 --> 00:28:25,744
Speaker 1: but I've written. I write a lot. I write a

610
00:28:25,984 --> 00:28:29,064
Speaker 1: weekly newsletter, weeklyish newsletter, and there sometimes the's a writer

611
00:28:29,304 --> 00:28:31,464
Speaker 1: you write something and go, man, look what I just like,

612
00:28:31,464 --> 00:28:33,184
Speaker 1: you know, there are moments that are surprising that you're

613
00:28:33,224 --> 00:28:35,744
Speaker 1: like that they're active. Writing a novel revealed things about

614
00:28:35,744 --> 00:28:37,304
Speaker 1: your creative process or yourself.

615
00:28:37,904 --> 00:28:41,784
Speaker 2: Yes, there's multiple times I will just write kind of

616
00:28:41,824 --> 00:28:44,104
Speaker 2: stream of consciousness. I'm a bit of stream of consciousness

617
00:28:44,104 --> 00:28:47,824
Speaker 2: a guy, and then I go back through I'm like, oh,

618
00:28:48,144 --> 00:28:51,984
Speaker 2: that kind of hurts because you'll say how you feel.

619
00:28:52,544 --> 00:28:55,144
Speaker 2: But the pain doesn't set in until like a second

620
00:28:55,224 --> 00:29:00,144
Speaker 2: or third read, and then your head reverberates, the room reverberates,

621
00:29:00,184 --> 00:29:02,384
Speaker 2: and that's when like I used to just go for

622
00:29:02,464 --> 00:29:05,464
Speaker 2: a walk and smoke weed, and I stop smoking weed.

623
00:29:05,904 --> 00:29:07,344
Speaker 1: Oh okay, and so.

624
00:29:07,344 --> 00:29:09,424
Speaker 2: Now I still eat panic snacks, Like I eat a

625
00:29:09,464 --> 00:29:10,824
Speaker 2: lot of gummy bears, and I eat a lot of

626
00:29:10,824 --> 00:29:14,704
Speaker 2: salt vinegar chips, but it still reverberates, and I just

627
00:29:14,784 --> 00:29:18,664
Speaker 2: sit with it. And that is a new thing because

628
00:29:18,664 --> 00:29:21,224
Speaker 2: I used to just numb myself with drugs or whatever

629
00:29:21,344 --> 00:29:24,544
Speaker 2: and not deal with it. But then when you deal

630
00:29:24,584 --> 00:29:28,944
Speaker 2: with it, you take steps to not continue feeling that

631
00:29:29,024 --> 00:29:33,704
Speaker 2: way in your life. I think that's the biggest change.

632
00:29:34,024 --> 00:29:35,624
Speaker 1: So that's funny because when asked the question I was

633
00:29:35,664 --> 00:29:37,344
Speaker 1: thinking about things, They're like, oh, this is cool. You

634
00:29:37,344 --> 00:29:39,944
Speaker 1: actually were like, oh, this was I just learned something

635
00:29:39,944 --> 00:29:43,624
Speaker 1: about myself. Yeah, And I wasn't ready to learn, or

636
00:29:43,664 --> 00:29:45,384
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was ready to learn. Yeah.

637
00:29:45,584 --> 00:29:49,464
Speaker 2: Usually the shocking part of my writing to myself is

638
00:29:49,504 --> 00:29:53,024
Speaker 2: the pain that it reveals. And I'm like, oh, that

639
00:29:53,224 --> 00:29:57,104
Speaker 2: hurt my feelings, Like I hurt my feelings. Yeah yeah yeah,

640
00:29:57,144 --> 00:30:00,304
Speaker 2: And like cause I think my normal mode of operation

641
00:30:00,544 --> 00:30:03,104
Speaker 2: is like as fine, don't get worked up. Don't get

642
00:30:03,104 --> 00:30:05,424
Speaker 2: worked up. You know, like there's enough people that have

643
00:30:05,504 --> 00:30:08,824
Speaker 2: complaints about me verbally making complaints that I'm like not

644
00:30:08,904 --> 00:30:12,504
Speaker 2: trying to set myself yeah into a spiral.

645
00:30:12,744 --> 00:30:14,384
Speaker 1: Yeah, But now I.

646
00:30:14,904 --> 00:30:17,904
Speaker 2: Do hear myself a lot more, And that's what the

647
00:30:17,944 --> 00:30:19,344
Speaker 2: writing has been helpful for.

648
00:30:37,744 --> 00:30:39,304
Speaker 1: I mean a part of this I think is connected

649
00:30:39,304 --> 00:30:40,904
Speaker 1: to and please speak to this like I think becoming

650
00:30:40,984 --> 00:30:44,304
Speaker 1: a dad. Like, so the book is a lot about masculinity, yes,

651
00:30:44,424 --> 00:30:46,984
Speaker 1: and a lot about like the ways in which masculinity,

652
00:30:48,264 --> 00:30:50,264
Speaker 1: specifically the way we practice in this country and would

653
00:30:50,304 --> 00:30:53,984
Speaker 1: get well, maybe can can fuck up the dude, Yeah,

654
00:30:54,824 --> 00:30:58,784
Speaker 1: masculinity can can mess it weirdly, can mess up the man. Yeah. Yeah.

655
00:30:58,824 --> 00:31:00,664
Speaker 1: But also once you like I feel like for me,

656
00:31:00,704 --> 00:31:03,864
Speaker 1: once I became a dad, like, also becoming a dad

657
00:31:03,944 --> 00:31:08,184
Speaker 1: opens you up to feeling differently about your most toxic traits.

658
00:31:08,224 --> 00:31:13,064
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yes, yeah, like I can't

659
00:31:13,184 --> 00:31:16,624
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully for some dudes, some dudes, I go

660
00:31:16,944 --> 00:31:17,984
Speaker 1: turn out my toxicity.

661
00:31:18,064 --> 00:31:20,464
Speaker 2: But you know, no, it's helped me a lot in

662
00:31:20,544 --> 00:31:25,184
Speaker 2: this one very particular way, which is that I truly

663
00:31:25,264 --> 00:31:30,224
Speaker 2: love my son no matter what he does. And I

664
00:31:30,304 --> 00:31:33,504
Speaker 2: don't think I received that or understood that. I do

665
00:31:33,624 --> 00:31:36,664
Speaker 2: think that every parent loves their kid no matter what,

666
00:31:37,384 --> 00:31:39,584
Speaker 2: whether they can say it or express it or not.

667
00:31:39,824 --> 00:31:43,344
Speaker 1: That's a bold statement, but because yeah.

668
00:31:42,744 --> 00:31:44,824
Speaker 2: Like, look, I'm not on great terms with my parents,

669
00:31:44,944 --> 00:31:48,864
Speaker 2: but I do believe, I do believe the truth is

670
00:31:48,904 --> 00:31:52,064
Speaker 2: that they love me, even though they cannot conform their

671
00:31:52,144 --> 00:31:56,384
Speaker 2: actions to be productive in my life and like so

672
00:31:56,504 --> 00:31:59,464
Speaker 2: that we can be happy. Like I'm more unhappy with

673
00:31:59,504 --> 00:32:03,784
Speaker 2: my parents in my life unfortunately. Yeah it sucks, but

674
00:32:04,424 --> 00:32:07,784
Speaker 2: I really do believe they love me. With my son,

675
00:32:08,184 --> 00:32:09,904
Speaker 2: I was just like, I don't want to ruin this

676
00:32:09,984 --> 00:32:13,784
Speaker 2: because it's un doubted. I love you. Yeah, it's unconditional,

677
00:32:14,184 --> 00:32:16,624
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to put any conditions on this.

678
00:32:17,344 --> 00:32:20,824
Speaker 2: And I think that has enabled me to love myself,

679
00:32:22,464 --> 00:32:23,984
Speaker 2: which is real crazy.

680
00:32:23,984 --> 00:32:26,464
Speaker 1: That's real great. And yet as a dad, I can

681
00:32:26,504 --> 00:32:28,184
Speaker 1: say that's what happens. You just feel like, man, I

682
00:32:28,224 --> 00:32:31,144
Speaker 1: need to do this. The way I feel about these

683
00:32:31,624 --> 00:32:33,824
Speaker 1: this child or these children depend about how many you

684
00:32:33,864 --> 00:32:36,344
Speaker 1: have has taught me about how to feel better about

685
00:32:36,544 --> 00:32:40,064
Speaker 1: how to feel about myself and also creates a thing

686
00:32:40,104 --> 00:32:42,064
Speaker 1: that puts a battery in your back, which is not different.

687
00:32:42,024 --> 00:32:43,824
Speaker 1: You're like, I need to crank this book out. Yeah,

688
00:32:43,904 --> 00:32:46,544
Speaker 1: it's also part of like I need to this book

689
00:32:46,624 --> 00:32:48,264
Speaker 1: is that is a way to sort of to show

690
00:32:48,304 --> 00:32:51,064
Speaker 1: you more love. Yeah, because we will take care of you.

691
00:32:50,944 --> 00:32:53,064
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, And like when he was born, I

692
00:32:53,064 --> 00:32:54,624
Speaker 2: didn't want to let my son do I don't want

693
00:32:54,624 --> 00:32:58,224
Speaker 2: to let my wife down. But once you understand that love.

694
00:32:58,344 --> 00:33:00,824
Speaker 2: Like now when people are disappointed me, I'm like, that's fair.

695
00:33:01,224 --> 00:33:04,704
Speaker 2: But also my world is not falling crumbling because I

696
00:33:04,744 --> 00:33:07,384
Speaker 2: know you still love me. Yeah, and I still love you,

697
00:33:07,424 --> 00:33:10,104
Speaker 2: and I hope we can all understand that, like we

698
00:33:10,184 --> 00:33:13,464
Speaker 2: all fuck up all mistakes. But in the old me

699
00:33:13,704 --> 00:33:15,984
Speaker 2: used to feel like to be loved, I had to

700
00:33:16,024 --> 00:33:19,144
Speaker 2: do these things and be this person. And I've let go.

701
00:33:19,184 --> 00:33:22,584
Speaker 1: Of That's that's big. That's big. I mean, it's so

702
00:33:22,664 --> 00:33:24,664
Speaker 1: interesting thing about the book helping you sort of connect

703
00:33:24,664 --> 00:33:27,104
Speaker 1: to that, to those ideas. You brought his name a

704
00:33:27,144 --> 00:33:28,624
Speaker 1: couple of times, and I didn't think we were talking

705
00:33:28,624 --> 00:33:31,264
Speaker 1: about him, But I don't know him. I just know

706
00:33:31,304 --> 00:33:34,784
Speaker 1: the legend of Chris Jackson. Yeah. Yeah, so because he's

707
00:33:34,864 --> 00:33:37,504
Speaker 1: known in the industry, Yes, can you talk about just

708
00:33:37,504 --> 00:33:40,264
Speaker 1: spare some words for Chris Jackson, like what he means

709
00:33:40,304 --> 00:33:41,944
Speaker 1: and who he is to people who are like, why

710
00:33:41,984 --> 00:33:43,184
Speaker 1: do they keep saying Chris Jackson?

711
00:33:43,344 --> 00:33:47,424
Speaker 2: Amazing? I would highly recommend anyone who's interested in like publishing,

712
00:33:47,464 --> 00:33:51,224
Speaker 2: in literature writing to go google the New York Times

713
00:33:51,224 --> 00:33:54,904
Speaker 2: profile of Chris Jackson. It's really incredible. It's one of

714
00:33:54,984 --> 00:33:59,264
Speaker 2: my favorite profiles ever. But Chris Jackson is I would say,

715
00:33:59,504 --> 00:34:05,184
Speaker 2: the foremost liberal editor in publishing. He may not like

716
00:34:05,264 --> 00:34:07,984
Speaker 2: that label, you know, like some people try to be

717
00:34:08,024 --> 00:34:10,984
Speaker 2: even more myopic and say like he is the foremost

718
00:34:11,104 --> 00:34:15,464
Speaker 2: black publisher editor in publishing. But I really do think

719
00:34:15,504 --> 00:34:18,504
Speaker 2: that Chris is just like, if you are a progressive

720
00:34:18,504 --> 00:34:21,743
Speaker 2: writer and you're challenging the system and you want to

721
00:34:21,783 --> 00:34:26,024
Speaker 2: like throw rocks at Babylon, he is your editor. He

722
00:34:26,143 --> 00:34:29,304
Speaker 2: is your publisher, and if you're doing it by speaking

723
00:34:29,384 --> 00:34:32,903
Speaker 2: truth to power, he is the greatest editor you could

724
00:34:32,944 --> 00:34:37,024
Speaker 2: possibly work with. I think, you know, Tanahase coats Between

725
00:34:37,064 --> 00:34:39,903
Speaker 2: the World and Me. Chris edited that book. He's been

726
00:34:39,944 --> 00:34:43,263
Speaker 2: Tanahassee's editor since the beginning. I think Tanahasse is the

727
00:34:43,743 --> 00:34:47,623
Speaker 2: you know, the great mountain at one World Books. You

728
00:34:47,663 --> 00:34:50,863
Speaker 2: know that all of us in buyer. But you know,

729
00:34:50,904 --> 00:34:53,183
Speaker 2: he also has writers that I really love, like M. K. A.

730
00:34:53,303 --> 00:34:58,863
Speaker 2: Santi that wrote book. And you know, Chris also published

731
00:34:59,024 --> 00:35:02,984
Speaker 2: the Fat Joe Memoir, the Prince Memoir. You know, he

732
00:35:03,104 --> 00:35:06,944
Speaker 2: edited Fresh off the Boat and published it. So, you know,

733
00:35:07,424 --> 00:35:11,263
Speaker 2: I just think that Chris has had this talent and

734
00:35:11,344 --> 00:35:15,984
Speaker 2: this ability to find voices over the last twenty years

735
00:35:16,424 --> 00:35:21,584
Speaker 2: speaking truth to power, trying to dismantle the system. And

736
00:35:21,824 --> 00:35:24,423
Speaker 2: I mean, he's the man has committed his life to it,

737
00:35:24,944 --> 00:35:27,784
Speaker 2: and you know, I just think he's the best.

738
00:35:27,984 --> 00:35:28,384
Speaker 1: Yeah.

739
00:35:28,824 --> 00:35:31,504
Speaker 2: You know, like Tana Hasee came to the restaurant a

740
00:35:31,584 --> 00:35:33,383
Speaker 2: couple of weeks ago and we were both talking to him,

741
00:35:33,424 --> 00:35:35,703
Speaker 2: like he's the best, but like, does he have to

742
00:35:35,703 --> 00:35:37,024
Speaker 2: be that nasty.

743
00:35:36,824 --> 00:35:39,544
Speaker 1: The margins like that? Yeah?

744
00:35:39,584 --> 00:35:41,424
Speaker 2: I thought he just really like was like that with

745
00:35:41,584 --> 00:35:44,023
Speaker 2: me because like I'm slightly unprofessional.

746
00:35:44,183 --> 00:35:45,504
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like he does.

747
00:35:45,544 --> 00:35:47,424
Speaker 2: It's a ton of Hossey too. I was like, oh word,

748
00:35:47,464 --> 00:35:49,903
Speaker 2: I'm glad he's coming at you sideways too. He's like, bro,

749
00:35:50,024 --> 00:35:52,863
Speaker 2: he talking sideways.

750
00:35:51,783 --> 00:35:56,024
Speaker 1: All the tide. That's funny because people have obviously understandab

751
00:35:56,663 --> 00:35:59,264
Speaker 1: on like this this upper deck of this high shelf

752
00:35:59,303 --> 00:36:01,623
Speaker 1: of like oh you think there's a guy to being

753
00:36:01,623 --> 00:36:04,584
Speaker 1: like this is something bo. Yeah, that he's got an

754
00:36:04,663 --> 00:36:07,343
Speaker 1: editor who was who will who will be mean to him? Yeah?

755
00:36:07,464 --> 00:36:10,544
Speaker 2: It is crazy because Chris will just stepped to anybody.

756
00:36:10,743 --> 00:36:13,743
Speaker 2: And I think Chris just deep down he will never

757
00:36:13,904 --> 00:36:16,584
Speaker 2: ever admit this. I think Chris deepdown knows he is

758
00:36:16,623 --> 00:36:18,823
Speaker 2: probably the smartest person in any room he walks in

759
00:36:20,584 --> 00:36:22,943
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, he's so smart that he won't write

760
00:36:22,944 --> 00:36:23,703
Speaker 2: a book himself.

761
00:36:25,904 --> 00:36:29,904
Speaker 1: He's like, who will edit me? How can you edit? God? Like?

762
00:36:30,223 --> 00:36:33,344
Speaker 2: I hope that Chris is caught slipping at some point

763
00:36:33,344 --> 00:36:34,943
Speaker 2: in his life and tries to write a book.

764
00:36:34,944 --> 00:36:36,024
Speaker 1: I would love that.

765
00:36:36,223 --> 00:36:40,584
Speaker 2: I would love nothing more than they Oh oh, let's

766
00:36:41,504 --> 00:36:45,143
Speaker 2: on good Reads? Crazy? You know, like chapter three wasn't

767
00:36:45,143 --> 00:36:49,743
Speaker 2: as propulsive as it could have been. That would I

768
00:36:49,743 --> 00:36:51,743
Speaker 2: would be a pig and ship if he ever.

769
00:36:51,703 --> 00:36:55,463
Speaker 1: Wrote a book. It's funny. Yeah, so uh, I think

770
00:36:55,544 --> 00:36:57,703
Speaker 1: because I think most people who aren't in books don't

771
00:36:57,743 --> 00:37:00,664
Speaker 1: understand the difference between a good editor and a bad editor.

772
00:37:00,783 --> 00:37:03,303
Speaker 1: And how can you talk about like with this book

773
00:37:03,303 --> 00:37:05,464
Speaker 1: with come Undone, Like what are ways in which you

774
00:37:05,504 --> 00:37:07,943
Speaker 1: felt like Chris really helped you sort of like get

775
00:37:07,944 --> 00:37:09,383
Speaker 1: this to the place that needed to be.

776
00:37:09,783 --> 00:37:13,544
Speaker 2: Okay, So the crazy part is this book began as

777
00:37:13,584 --> 00:37:18,263
Speaker 2: another book literally ten years ago. Oh wow, Okay, I

778
00:37:18,384 --> 00:37:21,423
Speaker 2: delivered multiple versions of a book. It just didn't work.

779
00:37:21,864 --> 00:37:25,383
Speaker 2: I waited and waited, and the themes are still the

780
00:37:25,424 --> 00:37:29,024
Speaker 2: same as they were in that original book. Meeting my

781
00:37:29,104 --> 00:37:31,984
Speaker 2: wife and breaking up with my parents became the two

782
00:37:32,143 --> 00:37:36,064
Speaker 2: catalytic events that allowed me to finally like write about

783
00:37:36,064 --> 00:37:39,064
Speaker 2: this thing that I don't even think I understood when

784
00:37:39,104 --> 00:37:41,584
Speaker 2: I first attempted it ten years ago. I just knew

785
00:37:41,584 --> 00:37:44,544
Speaker 2: there was a hole in my heart. I knew that

786
00:37:44,824 --> 00:37:52,224
Speaker 2: I was really really handicapped in relationships, and I wanted

787
00:37:52,263 --> 00:37:55,663
Speaker 2: nothing more than to like meet the love of my

788
00:37:55,783 --> 00:38:00,064
Speaker 2: life and be a good partner and do intimacy. But

789
00:38:00,104 --> 00:38:02,623
Speaker 2: I had no idea how, and I didn't know why

790
00:38:03,024 --> 00:38:08,143
Speaker 2: I was so incapacitated. Then I came to realize, I think,

791
00:38:08,183 --> 00:38:11,064
Speaker 2: deep down I knew why I was incapapacitated the whole time.

792
00:38:11,143 --> 00:38:14,183
Speaker 2: Time is obviously a relationship with like my mother and

793
00:38:14,223 --> 00:38:17,304
Speaker 2: my father that I had never really fixed or worked

794
00:38:17,623 --> 00:38:23,143
Speaker 2: on enough to like heal myself. And my wife was

795
00:38:23,183 --> 00:38:26,303
Speaker 2: the catalyst for doing the work because she was not

796
00:38:26,384 --> 00:38:29,183
Speaker 2: going to be in a relationship with a piece of shit.

797
00:38:31,223 --> 00:38:33,064
Speaker 1: Fair a fair choice, that was it.

798
00:38:33,984 --> 00:38:36,904
Speaker 2: She was not going to accept a lesser version of me,

799
00:38:37,504 --> 00:38:41,984
Speaker 2: and she has just been this like constant guiding force

800
00:38:42,024 --> 00:38:45,663
Speaker 2: in my life of like, I refuse to allow you

801
00:38:45,703 --> 00:38:47,183
Speaker 2: to be emotionally unavailable.

802
00:38:48,464 --> 00:38:51,384
Speaker 1: I refuse to allow you to be emotionally unavailable. Yeah,

803
00:38:51,663 --> 00:38:54,584
Speaker 1: why is why was your wife? There's a version of

804
00:38:54,584 --> 00:38:58,104
Speaker 1: your wife. That's like if you're emostally unavailable three times

805
00:38:58,143 --> 00:39:02,584
Speaker 1: and like, I'm out, what what what kept your wife? You?

806
00:39:02,663 --> 00:39:07,104
Speaker 2: Oh, because she's my twin. She's emotionally unavailable to so

807
00:39:07,263 --> 00:39:10,544
Speaker 2: game recognizes game. Yeah, yeah, and that's what that's what

808
00:39:10,584 --> 00:39:14,343
Speaker 2: the book is about. I ended up fictionalizing our relationship

809
00:39:14,384 --> 00:39:19,263
Speaker 2: in that like two extremely emotionally unavailable people meet each other,

810
00:39:19,544 --> 00:39:21,904
Speaker 2: and now what do you do when it's spy versus spy?

811
00:39:22,223 --> 00:39:24,464
Speaker 2: And that, to me is the core of the book.

812
00:39:24,703 --> 00:39:27,743
Speaker 1: Okay, So I asked because I feel it's pressure all time.

813
00:39:28,024 --> 00:39:30,223
Speaker 1: So now you're having your first novel, you are a

814
00:39:30,263 --> 00:39:34,384
Speaker 1: known person. I'm sure you know Chris Jackson, major editor

815
00:39:34,384 --> 00:39:37,424
Speaker 1: put together. Do you feel the commercial pressure?

816
00:39:38,544 --> 00:39:38,984
Speaker 2: Oh?

817
00:39:39,464 --> 00:39:41,023
Speaker 1: No, okay, you know why.

818
00:39:41,143 --> 00:39:43,064
Speaker 2: And you know, here's the thing, because I sold the

819
00:39:43,064 --> 00:39:45,303
Speaker 2: next book to Chris before this comes out. That's what

820
00:39:45,384 --> 00:39:47,544
Speaker 2: you gotta do. You got you gotta sell it.

821
00:39:47,663 --> 00:39:49,463
Speaker 1: You gotta keep one of the Yeah, I got one

822
00:39:49,504 --> 00:39:50,224
Speaker 1: in the chamber.

823
00:39:50,464 --> 00:39:52,383
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love Chris, but you know, like we do,

824
00:39:52,464 --> 00:39:54,703
Speaker 2: sit at opposite sides of the table when it comes

825
00:39:54,703 --> 00:39:57,104
Speaker 2: to the business side. So I gotta wait till Chris

826
00:39:57,183 --> 00:39:58,984
Speaker 2: is hype off the book and is before it comes out,

827
00:39:58,984 --> 00:40:02,024
Speaker 2: like you, I'm gonna sell you the next one. It's

828
00:40:02,024 --> 00:40:05,104
Speaker 2: a it's back to nonfiction. Okay, you know, yeah, because

829
00:40:05,143 --> 00:40:08,024
Speaker 2: Chris is willing to pay me more for nonfiction the novel,

830
00:40:08,464 --> 00:40:10,263
Speaker 2: and also he had to wait ten years for this book.

831
00:40:11,584 --> 00:40:13,503
Speaker 1: I keep to keep the trains running out time.

832
00:40:13,743 --> 00:40:15,983
Speaker 2: Yeah, now that we got the fire started again, could

833
00:40:16,024 --> 00:40:17,743
Speaker 2: we just throw a couple of logs on this thing?

834
00:40:18,104 --> 00:40:20,143
Speaker 1: So no, there's you're not gonna be a guy who's

835
00:40:20,183 --> 00:40:23,663
Speaker 1: like New York Times section see if I'm making the

836
00:40:23,703 --> 00:40:24,743
Speaker 1: list and all kinds of stuff I.

837
00:40:24,743 --> 00:40:28,544
Speaker 2: Would like to make the list. I definitely care, you know,

838
00:40:28,663 --> 00:40:31,424
Speaker 2: I care about making lists, and I care if people

839
00:40:31,504 --> 00:40:34,623
Speaker 2: enjoy the book. I really really do. But the money

840
00:40:34,743 --> 00:40:39,303
Speaker 2: side is not a factor, like because books there's not

841
00:40:39,504 --> 00:40:42,703
Speaker 2: like an insane amount of money and books. I think

842
00:40:42,743 --> 00:40:46,384
Speaker 2: I'm more crazy about like our daily sales at the restaurant.

843
00:40:46,864 --> 00:40:49,743
Speaker 2: You know, I watched the Toast Apple night in bed

844
00:40:49,783 --> 00:40:52,784
Speaker 2: with my Yeah, I'd be looking at checks and sales

845
00:40:53,024 --> 00:40:53,623
Speaker 2: because that's.

846
00:40:55,384 --> 00:40:56,343
Speaker 1: You can see what's going on.

847
00:40:56,424 --> 00:40:59,703
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could see every check, every order. But yeah,

848
00:40:59,743 --> 00:41:03,223
Speaker 2: with with the with the book, the book, to me,

849
00:41:03,344 --> 00:41:07,584
Speaker 2: there's like a sanctity to the writing. I just really

850
00:41:07,663 --> 00:41:10,303
Speaker 2: enjoy it. It is the thing that I love to do.

851
00:41:10,703 --> 00:41:12,904
Speaker 1: Nice. So that's and currently I say it's three I

852
00:41:13,183 --> 00:41:14,703
Speaker 1: have three kids, so I have nine jobs. And you

853
00:41:14,743 --> 00:41:16,464
Speaker 1: seem to be in a similar position where it's like

854
00:41:16,944 --> 00:41:19,344
Speaker 1: it's you know, some people might just have a restaurant,

855
00:41:19,544 --> 00:41:22,223
Speaker 1: just some people might just be a writer. But you're

856
00:41:22,263 --> 00:41:23,343
Speaker 1: out here doing all these things.

857
00:41:23,424 --> 00:41:26,584
Speaker 2: Oh we boath Jamaican, Chinese.

858
00:41:28,544 --> 00:41:30,783
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you don't know what's going to happen with

859
00:41:30,783 --> 00:41:32,584
Speaker 1: all these other jobs, so that job goes away.

860
00:41:32,743 --> 00:41:34,503
Speaker 2: I got three stores in the trunk of my car.

861
00:41:37,584 --> 00:41:40,783
Speaker 1: So one thing I read about the book and the

862
00:41:40,904 --> 00:41:42,984
Speaker 1: lead up is that you feel like this book in

863
00:41:43,024 --> 00:41:46,064
Speaker 1: some ways helps tell a story you weren't able to

864
00:41:46,544 --> 00:41:51,263
Speaker 1: throw Fresh off the Boat. Yeah, yes, very very famously.

865
00:41:51,824 --> 00:41:53,904
Speaker 1: I mean I think I saw the first commercial for

866
00:41:53,944 --> 00:41:55,663
Speaker 1: Fresh off the Boat and then also read that you

867
00:41:55,703 --> 00:41:57,263
Speaker 1: hated it, you know what I mean, Like like it

868
00:41:57,303 --> 00:42:00,064
Speaker 1: was like that show was launched with this is Eddie

869
00:42:00,104 --> 00:42:05,263
Speaker 1: Wong's new show. He hates it. Watch this Wednesday at

870
00:42:05,303 --> 00:42:08,704
Speaker 1: eight o'clock and he's not going to be watching Yeah

871
00:42:08,944 --> 00:42:11,303
Speaker 1: that whole and I have been in positions I've been

872
00:42:11,303 --> 00:42:13,423
Speaker 1: pretty open about it, not to that I haven't had

873
00:42:13,464 --> 00:42:16,104
Speaker 1: it like that where the products I worked on I've

874
00:42:16,104 --> 00:42:18,223
Speaker 1: then later tell people that sucked. But you were telling

875
00:42:18,223 --> 00:42:21,024
Speaker 1: people in real time, yeah this sucks. Yeah.

876
00:42:21,064 --> 00:42:24,584
Speaker 2: People usually wait after the like the deposit hits the

877
00:42:24,623 --> 00:42:27,783
Speaker 2: account and then the residuals. Then they're like three years later,

878
00:42:27,864 --> 00:42:30,663
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't my best work exactly, but I

879
00:42:30,703 --> 00:42:34,743
Speaker 2: just was like, look that show. I felt like I

880
00:42:34,864 --> 00:42:38,104
Speaker 2: needed to say something. I needed to speak truth to

881
00:42:38,183 --> 00:42:41,143
Speaker 2: power because a large part of the show and the

882
00:42:41,183 --> 00:42:46,304
Speaker 2: marketing was this is about Asian representation, this is about identity.

883
00:42:46,344 --> 00:42:48,584
Speaker 2: We're going to kick the door down for Asian representation.

884
00:42:49,384 --> 00:42:52,223
Speaker 2: Do I think it was ultimately positive? I think for

885
00:42:52,263 --> 00:42:55,783
Speaker 2: the Asian community it created a like financial pipeline to

886
00:42:55,904 --> 00:43:00,984
Speaker 2: make money and sell like content and make films.

887
00:43:01,424 --> 00:43:04,903
Speaker 1: Also like to help open up Asian actors in Hollywood. Yeah,

888
00:43:04,984 --> 00:43:06,623
Speaker 1: because that if we can do that, we can do

889
00:43:07,703 --> 00:43:10,424
Speaker 1: what's the other the Rich Crazy I.

890
00:43:10,464 --> 00:43:14,544
Speaker 2: Ratiations and all the other Asian shows that have come after.

891
00:43:14,944 --> 00:43:17,663
Speaker 2: But I will say this, the second biggest storyline I

892
00:43:17,743 --> 00:43:20,663
Speaker 2: think in Come Undone is that there is a metaphor

893
00:43:20,743 --> 00:43:23,783
Speaker 2: for fresh off the Boat, which is the family in

894
00:43:23,824 --> 00:43:27,384
Speaker 2: come Undone. There's a very famous photograph taken of them

895
00:43:27,504 --> 00:43:30,904
Speaker 2: that is in the Smithsonian that in this alternate fictional

896
00:43:30,944 --> 00:43:35,424
Speaker 2: world is like the iconic photograph of an Asian American family.

897
00:43:36,104 --> 00:43:42,303
Speaker 2: And my experience with identity representation in this country as

898
00:43:42,303 --> 00:43:46,784
Speaker 2: a millennial was that we were all encouraged to sell

899
00:43:47,464 --> 00:43:51,944
Speaker 2: and market our identities, that if you could make money

900
00:43:51,984 --> 00:43:55,584
Speaker 2: and bring it back to your community with identity based content,

901
00:43:55,783 --> 00:43:58,183
Speaker 2: that this was a positive, that this is something that

902
00:43:58,223 --> 00:44:01,343
Speaker 2: we should all seek out. But what happened is that

903
00:44:01,424 --> 00:44:05,304
Speaker 2: Babylon and the powers that be, once that pipeline was created,

904
00:44:05,504 --> 00:44:08,464
Speaker 2: they took complete control of the pipeline. It was like

905
00:44:08,504 --> 00:44:11,904
Speaker 2: the Keystone pipeline and you had no control. And it

906
00:44:11,984 --> 00:44:16,223
Speaker 2: was the leaders of the Asian American community that are

907
00:44:16,303 --> 00:44:20,423
Speaker 2: very connected to like powers that be, you know, had

908
00:44:20,504 --> 00:44:25,264
Speaker 2: a very particular brand of Asian identity that they wanted shown.

909
00:44:25,984 --> 00:44:28,743
Speaker 2: And I felt it was a huge disservice to a

910
00:44:28,783 --> 00:44:33,104
Speaker 2: lot of Asian Americans who struggle, you know, I struggled

911
00:44:34,064 --> 00:44:37,544
Speaker 2: just with domestic violence at home, my mom being beat

912
00:44:37,864 --> 00:44:42,663
Speaker 2: me and my brother Emory being beat physical mental it.

913
00:44:43,584 --> 00:44:47,183
Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of Asian American kids and

914
00:44:47,303 --> 00:44:50,944
Speaker 2: growing up, all of us were being hit And a

915
00:44:50,984 --> 00:44:52,863
Speaker 2: big factor in Fresh off the Boat was that I

916
00:44:52,904 --> 00:44:54,024
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about that.

917
00:44:55,384 --> 00:44:59,784
Speaker 1: And the powers that be were like not on primetime television, Nope,

918
00:44:59,904 --> 00:45:02,623
Speaker 1: not in our family sitcom. Yeah. Yeah.

919
00:45:02,663 --> 00:45:06,104
Speaker 2: And because also it's I I if you look at it, like,

920
00:45:06,984 --> 00:45:09,544
Speaker 2: I don't think this is like a biased opinion. A

921
00:45:09,584 --> 00:45:14,544
Speaker 2: lot of Asian American leaders they want to do business.

922
00:45:14,864 --> 00:45:19,143
Speaker 2: The choices they make concerning identity and the content they

923
00:45:19,143 --> 00:45:23,904
Speaker 2: put out is around creating more opportunity to make money,

924
00:45:24,263 --> 00:45:27,224
Speaker 2: which is cool, that makes sense, like money is really

925
00:45:27,223 --> 00:45:30,743
Speaker 2: important to make in this late stage capitalist world we

926
00:45:30,824 --> 00:45:36,504
Speaker 2: live in. But I do think that there has to

927
00:45:36,544 --> 00:45:41,983
Speaker 2: be some part of art and creativity that reserves room

928
00:45:42,024 --> 00:45:44,623
Speaker 2: for the truth. That's how I feel.

929
00:45:45,544 --> 00:45:47,383
Speaker 1: I mean, let me know if I'm wrong. The thing

930
00:45:47,424 --> 00:45:48,944
Speaker 1: that I'm hearing is the thing I feel like that

931
00:45:48,984 --> 00:45:51,943
Speaker 1: happens to me. I remember, and Chris Rock actually told

932
00:45:51,944 --> 00:45:54,064
Speaker 1: me this when I had my first TV show, Totally

933
00:45:54,064 --> 00:45:57,344
Speaker 1: Biased that he produced, that, like, you have to understand

934
00:45:57,344 --> 00:46:01,024
Speaker 1: that now that you're on TV, you're representing black people,

935
00:46:01,703 --> 00:46:04,503
Speaker 1: and black people looking at you as a representative like who,

936
00:46:04,584 --> 00:46:06,864
Speaker 1: Especially because I wasn't famous. Who is this guy? Is

937
00:46:06,904 --> 00:46:10,223
Speaker 1: he gonna represent as well? Then other people are black

938
00:46:10,223 --> 00:46:12,343
Speaker 1: are like, oh, it's the new black representative because there's

939
00:46:12,344 --> 00:46:14,543
Speaker 1: only a few of them on TV, so he's the NIDA. Also,

940
00:46:14,584 --> 00:46:16,064
Speaker 1: I was the only black guy in late night television

941
00:46:16,104 --> 00:46:18,904
Speaker 1: at that point. So but what it does take away

942
00:46:19,183 --> 00:46:20,743
Speaker 1: is your ability to just be yourself.

943
00:46:21,464 --> 00:46:23,944
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're viewed as a product of the black community.

944
00:46:24,024 --> 00:46:26,384
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and that means that, like I remember with

945
00:46:26,544 --> 00:46:29,343
Speaker 1: Toty Bias, because nature pop culture, because of how big

946
00:46:29,384 --> 00:46:31,584
Speaker 1: the story was, I felt like this show makes look

947
00:46:31,623 --> 00:46:34,263
Speaker 1: like I'm a huge fan of jay Z because we

948
00:46:34,303 --> 00:46:35,823
Speaker 1: would just talk about him because he was a big

949
00:46:35,864 --> 00:46:37,863
Speaker 1: pop culture story. But because it was kind of on me,

950
00:46:37,904 --> 00:46:40,223
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not not a fan of jay Z,

951
00:46:40,864 --> 00:46:43,263
Speaker 1: but there wasn't enough a living color and fishbone talk

952
00:46:43,303 --> 00:46:45,303
Speaker 1: if you want to. You know, I'm that guy, you

953
00:46:45,344 --> 00:46:47,183
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And I sort of felt like

954
00:46:47,263 --> 00:46:48,784
Speaker 1: it's sort of the version of me that I'm putting

955
00:46:48,783 --> 00:46:51,903
Speaker 1: out there is is a version of me, whereas as

956
00:46:51,944 --> 00:46:58,223
Speaker 1: you know, like white people, yeah, get to be like

957
00:46:58,384 --> 00:47:00,823
Speaker 1: I kind of classic and get to be idiosyncratic and

958
00:47:00,864 --> 00:47:02,944
Speaker 1: get to be sort of just weird and they're not

959
00:47:03,024 --> 00:47:04,584
Speaker 1: representing white people.

960
00:47:04,783 --> 00:47:09,344
Speaker 2: Yeah. And because the game is always to get minorities,

961
00:47:09,504 --> 00:47:13,824
Speaker 2: everybody to a buyer to a dominant cultural white life,

962
00:47:14,384 --> 00:47:17,663
Speaker 2: fresh off the boat, fresh prince of bel Air. You know,

963
00:47:17,783 --> 00:47:24,463
Speaker 2: everybody hates you're aspiring to something circumstance. Yeah, and once

964
00:47:24,504 --> 00:47:29,503
Speaker 2: you're selected, it's like, YO, represent that so that other

965
00:47:29,544 --> 00:47:33,303
Speaker 2: people want to be like you. But to me, the

966
00:47:33,424 --> 00:47:38,663
Speaker 2: issue is that by aspiring, you're subscribing to dominant culture.

967
00:47:39,384 --> 00:47:44,223
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't say it's a mistake. I mean, I

968
00:47:44,344 --> 00:47:47,104
Speaker 2: trojan horsed. I wanted to make a point. I wanted

969
00:47:47,143 --> 00:47:48,663
Speaker 2: to get the show on. I got the show on,

970
00:47:48,824 --> 00:47:52,384
Speaker 2: and to my own detriment, I talk crazy shit because

971
00:47:52,424 --> 00:47:54,183
Speaker 2: I was like, I will have the microphone if this

972
00:47:54,263 --> 00:47:56,504
Speaker 2: gets on. So let's get the show on, and then

973
00:47:56,544 --> 00:47:58,464
Speaker 2: I'm going to take the mic and I'm gonna be like,

974
00:47:59,143 --> 00:48:01,384
Speaker 2: you know, George Bush hates black people.

975
00:48:01,663 --> 00:48:01,823
Speaker 1: You know.

976
00:48:02,384 --> 00:48:05,504
Speaker 2: It's like I went, you know, it looked like I

977
00:48:05,544 --> 00:48:07,703
Speaker 2: was a crazy person, but I wasn't. It was just

978
00:48:07,743 --> 00:48:09,783
Speaker 2: like I knew what I wanted to say.

979
00:48:10,143 --> 00:48:11,823
Speaker 1: The interest thing about it is it didn't seem to

980
00:48:12,183 --> 00:48:14,783
Speaker 1: hurt the show in the long run. The show is

981
00:48:14,824 --> 00:48:17,544
Speaker 1: like in the cannon of American sitcoms, and there's this

982
00:48:17,584 --> 00:48:19,183
Speaker 1: weird thing. It was like, it's good that we have

983
00:48:19,183 --> 00:48:21,584
Speaker 1: an Asian American show in the canon of American sitcoms,

984
00:48:21,864 --> 00:48:23,343
Speaker 1: but it certainly doesn't all it was good that it

985
00:48:23,384 --> 00:48:26,024
Speaker 1: was your show that became the cannon in the cannon,

986
00:48:26,064 --> 00:48:29,343
Speaker 1: Like somebody else could have made that show separate from you.

987
00:48:29,464 --> 00:48:31,544
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, you're glad you got paid and

988
00:48:31,584 --> 00:48:33,424
Speaker 1: da da da dad. Yeah, and it would maybe you

989
00:48:33,424 --> 00:48:35,504
Speaker 1: would have looked at it differently because it wasn't representing you.

990
00:48:36,104 --> 00:48:38,504
Speaker 1: Because it's representing you, You're like, I did not grow

991
00:48:38,544 --> 00:48:41,863
Speaker 1: up in this cookie cutter, aspirational white environment. Yeah.

992
00:48:41,864 --> 00:48:44,663
Speaker 2: It's very hard to stop a train making money, Yeah,

993
00:48:44,743 --> 00:48:47,464
Speaker 2: for sure, because if people making money, they're going to

994
00:48:47,544 --> 00:48:49,703
Speaker 2: do everything they can to keep that train running on.

995
00:48:50,223 --> 00:48:55,104
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and especially at the level of like sitcom

996
00:48:55,183 --> 00:48:58,584
Speaker 1: prime Time, one of the big three networks, like that

997
00:48:58,703 --> 00:49:01,904
Speaker 1: is not some small cable thing that is not to

998
00:49:02,104 --> 00:49:04,944
Speaker 1: be that's like the last that's the that's the mothership

999
00:49:05,024 --> 00:49:07,864
Speaker 1: of American sort of TV in Hollywood.

1000
00:49:07,984 --> 00:49:09,944
Speaker 2: Yeah, and would come undone. I'm not going to like

1001
00:49:10,223 --> 00:49:13,224
Speaker 2: undo any Asian progress or I'm not going to stop

1002
00:49:13,263 --> 00:49:16,503
Speaker 2: any trains. But what I do now with my art

1003
00:49:16,703 --> 00:49:19,504
Speaker 2: is really I just want to speak to the people

1004
00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:23,384
Speaker 2: who feel like me, who are like Look, I participate

1005
00:49:23,464 --> 00:49:26,544
Speaker 2: in the global economy to the point I need to

1006
00:49:26,864 --> 00:49:29,944
Speaker 2: for my family, but I would like to engage with

1007
00:49:30,024 --> 00:49:33,183
Speaker 2: the truth somewhere. I would like to engage with the feelings.

1008
00:49:33,183 --> 00:49:37,864
Speaker 2: And this book in many ways engages themes and issues

1009
00:49:37,904 --> 00:49:44,864
Speaker 2: about how like a family can be protected by money

1010
00:49:45,303 --> 00:49:49,983
Speaker 2: and fame. Like my family stopped looking at itself once

1011
00:49:50,024 --> 00:49:53,183
Speaker 2: it became a famous Asian family. You know, it was

1012
00:49:53,263 --> 00:49:57,303
Speaker 2: as if all sins were forgiven. And I was like,

1013
00:49:57,464 --> 00:50:01,544
Speaker 2: oh nah, And obviously that's taken a long time to

1014
00:50:01,623 --> 00:50:07,024
Speaker 2: process and catalyze and metabolize and then create into art,

1015
00:50:07,104 --> 00:50:09,424
Speaker 2: Like by the time you write it, you've already figured

1016
00:50:09,424 --> 00:50:12,823
Speaker 2: it out in your life. It took a real long

1017
00:50:12,864 --> 00:50:16,423
Speaker 2: time for me to understand all of my feelings. From

1018
00:50:16,424 --> 00:50:17,024
Speaker 2: Fresh off the.

1019
00:50:16,944 --> 00:50:37,423
Speaker 1: Boat, I know Randall a little bit in the park,

1020
00:50:37,584 --> 00:50:39,623
Speaker 1: Like we met back when he was like when everybody's

1021
00:50:39,623 --> 00:50:41,984
Speaker 1: like that guy is super funny, it should be more successful.

1022
00:50:42,424 --> 00:50:44,424
Speaker 1: Randon was that guy. That guy's gonna make it. We

1023
00:50:44,424 --> 00:50:46,943
Speaker 1: don't know how, you know, And Fresh off the boat. Yeah,

1024
00:50:46,984 --> 00:50:49,303
Speaker 1: he made it and couldn't have to do a nicer

1025
00:50:49,344 --> 00:50:52,104
Speaker 1: guy if you run into the is there any is

1026
00:50:52,143 --> 00:50:54,384
Speaker 1: there friction with those people? Is there? No?

1027
00:50:54,384 --> 00:50:57,784
Speaker 2: No, no, no, Like you know, there's people on the show

1028
00:50:58,504 --> 00:51:01,183
Speaker 2: that we're just like, I can't turn this down.

1029
00:51:01,384 --> 00:51:02,143
Speaker 1: I gotta do this.

1030
00:51:02,623 --> 00:51:04,424
Speaker 2: I think the person on the show I related to

1031
00:51:04,504 --> 00:51:06,263
Speaker 2: the most was Constance.

1032
00:51:05,904 --> 00:51:08,064
Speaker 1: Who also talked about her struggles.

1033
00:51:08,143 --> 00:51:13,183
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, because she she also was like, look, I'm

1034
00:51:13,223 --> 00:51:15,543
Speaker 2: not just here to be an actor and get a check.

1035
00:51:15,904 --> 00:51:18,944
Speaker 2: I also have things to say, and I remember the

1036
00:51:19,104 --> 00:51:22,463
Speaker 2: child that was hurt coming up when all these things

1037
00:51:22,464 --> 00:51:26,464
Speaker 2: were happening, and Constance, I think, really really went to

1038
00:51:26,544 --> 00:51:29,703
Speaker 2: bat for a lot of issues. Her memoir is fantastic.

1039
00:51:31,183 --> 00:51:33,584
Speaker 2: I would just say that I really relate to Constance

1040
00:51:33,623 --> 00:51:36,943
Speaker 2: a lot and like how she handled herself, even though

1041
00:51:36,944 --> 00:51:42,064
Speaker 2: I think Hollywood tried to like you know, blackball. You know,

1042
00:51:42,504 --> 00:51:46,863
Speaker 2: that's just how the machine is, you know, like you're

1043
00:51:46,904 --> 00:51:49,224
Speaker 2: going to make it difficult for the trend to keep moving.

1044
00:51:49,584 --> 00:51:51,543
Speaker 2: We're just going to put somebody else in that role.

1045
00:51:52,064 --> 00:51:57,904
Speaker 2: But I do think that that whole Hollywood is dying, yeah,

1046
00:51:58,024 --> 00:52:00,943
Speaker 2: you know, and I think it's because there's not much

1047
00:52:01,024 --> 00:52:02,623
Speaker 2: truth in the things they make anymore.

1048
00:52:02,743 --> 00:52:05,223
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also it's really become very much about like

1049
00:52:05,904 --> 00:52:09,263
Speaker 1: lowest common denominator. And also if people have heard of

1050
00:52:09,263 --> 00:52:11,343
Speaker 1: that thing, then we should put money into it, even

1051
00:52:11,384 --> 00:52:13,344
Speaker 1: if the thing that they've heard of is not that important,

1052
00:52:13,504 --> 00:52:16,223
Speaker 1: exactly if they've hurt, oh they know, let's turn that

1053
00:52:16,303 --> 00:52:18,903
Speaker 1: into a movie. Yeah, Like you know, like I think

1054
00:52:18,904 --> 00:52:22,544
Speaker 1: that when we're sitting with my daughters at the Barbie movie,

1055
00:52:22,824 --> 00:52:25,663
Speaker 1: which shout out to Greg Gurig for doing more with

1056
00:52:25,703 --> 00:52:28,024
Speaker 1: that than anybody. You know, a lot of people would

1057
00:52:28,064 --> 00:52:29,663
Speaker 1: have made a Barbie movie, but she clearly like I

1058
00:52:29,663 --> 00:52:31,864
Speaker 1: got stuff to say, but I was just like, oh no,

1059
00:52:33,663 --> 00:52:36,663
Speaker 1: every every video game and board game and toy that

1060
00:52:36,743 --> 00:52:39,064
Speaker 1: this company owns is now going to be a movie.

1061
00:52:39,263 --> 00:52:41,143
Speaker 1: And not everybody's going to go in with the kind

1062
00:52:41,183 --> 00:52:45,183
Speaker 1: of like intellectual analysis or heart that Greta did. Yeah.

1063
00:52:45,303 --> 00:52:48,663
Speaker 2: Yeah, because also there's like two sides of every coin, Like, yeah,

1064
00:52:48,703 --> 00:52:52,184
Speaker 2: she did this incredible film that spoke truth to power,

1065
00:52:52,703 --> 00:52:56,823
Speaker 2: that showed you could be commercial and be true. But

1066
00:52:56,904 --> 00:52:59,504
Speaker 2: then now it's going to open a floodgate to like,

1067
00:53:00,143 --> 00:53:02,623
Speaker 2: you know, all kinds of board game movies, just like

1068
00:53:02,663 --> 00:53:04,544
Speaker 2: Fresh off the Boat open the floodgate for a lot

1069
00:53:04,584 --> 00:53:08,743
Speaker 2: of stuff that felt like the same white narratives with

1070
00:53:08,783 --> 00:53:13,544
Speaker 2: the yellow faces. You know, So that's it sucks, man,

1071
00:53:13,663 --> 00:53:15,544
Speaker 2: It's really the system we live in.

1072
00:53:15,864 --> 00:53:18,863
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's it's from my mind right now.

1073
00:53:18,904 --> 00:53:20,223
Speaker 1: I felt like the part of the reason I started

1074
00:53:20,263 --> 00:53:23,024
Speaker 1: this podcast, like I need something I can control and

1075
00:53:23,064 --> 00:53:25,663
Speaker 1: something that I own. But then I also look at

1076
00:53:26,584 --> 00:53:29,743
Speaker 1: publishing as being like it's weirdly not it can get Hollywood,

1077
00:53:30,024 --> 00:53:31,863
Speaker 1: but also you can walk in and write, you can.

1078
00:53:31,944 --> 00:53:34,863
Speaker 1: You can sort of you're talking to Chris Jackson. It's

1079
00:53:34,864 --> 00:53:38,383
Speaker 1: a more direct conversation. There's not like necessarily a room

1080
00:53:38,384 --> 00:53:39,783
Speaker 1: full of people that you have to deal with. He

1081
00:53:39,824 --> 00:53:41,703
Speaker 1: has to deal with a room full of people. I'm sure, yeah,

1082
00:53:41,743 --> 00:53:43,544
Speaker 1: but you're you get to sort of like it's a

1083
00:53:43,584 --> 00:53:47,584
Speaker 1: more direct direct to the art. The art is more concentrated.

1084
00:53:47,783 --> 00:53:51,344
Speaker 2: Yeah, And Chris is fighting for me behind closed doors,

1085
00:53:51,623 --> 00:53:56,143
Speaker 2: and I just deal with Chris. If it's on a movie,

1086
00:53:56,824 --> 00:54:00,224
Speaker 2: I'm on a zoom with like seven to eight people,

1087
00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,823
Speaker 2: none of which really understand what they're making. They were

1088
00:54:03,864 --> 00:54:05,383
Speaker 2: like I was in a mail room, and then this

1089
00:54:05,424 --> 00:54:08,383
Speaker 2: person's assistant, and then this person's assistant and then this

1090
00:54:08,424 --> 00:54:11,184
Speaker 2: person got fired and this person got hired, so now

1091
00:54:11,223 --> 00:54:14,223
Speaker 2: I have the job, and it's like but like it's

1092
00:54:14,344 --> 00:54:17,104
Speaker 2: it's just the Hollywood system is funny that people just

1093
00:54:17,183 --> 00:54:19,544
Speaker 2: keep failing up and then they get to a.

1094
00:54:19,544 --> 00:54:22,183
Speaker 1: Point where they cave around, you know, yeah.

1095
00:54:22,303 --> 00:54:24,544
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they have the audacity to tell someone

1096
00:54:24,544 --> 00:54:27,303
Speaker 2: who's like been sharpening their skills for many years, like

1097
00:54:27,344 --> 00:54:27,823
Speaker 2: what to do?

1098
00:54:28,143 --> 00:54:30,783
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also they feel like, well, it's my turn

1099
00:54:30,864 --> 00:54:32,864
Speaker 1: to say something. I can't say I don't have an opinion.

1100
00:54:33,263 --> 00:54:36,223
Speaker 1: I can't say that sounds good yet have I gotta

1101
00:54:36,223 --> 00:54:37,544
Speaker 1: I gotta sound like I have a thought.

1102
00:54:37,623 --> 00:54:38,984
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got to make something up.

1103
00:54:38,944 --> 00:54:40,223
Speaker 1: And then they say crazy thing.

1104
00:54:40,424 --> 00:54:42,463
Speaker 2: Yeah. But that's why I came back to New York.

1105
00:54:42,504 --> 00:54:45,344
Speaker 2: I feel like New York there is you know, it's

1106
00:54:45,464 --> 00:54:50,663
Speaker 2: it's a smaller independent, like creative community. But well, no,

1107
00:54:51,303 --> 00:54:53,743
Speaker 2: that's incorrect. I think what it is is that in

1108
00:54:53,864 --> 00:54:58,343
Speaker 2: New York, I do think people value the truth like

1109
00:54:58,584 --> 00:55:01,903
Speaker 2: a lot more in the creative community. In LA I

1110
00:55:01,984 --> 00:55:05,064
Speaker 2: really felt like it was what is the commercial viability

1111
00:55:05,183 --> 00:55:09,104
Speaker 2: of what you are saying? And people's actions and views

1112
00:55:09,223 --> 00:55:12,183
Speaker 2: start to fall in line with that, just like you you're

1113
00:55:12,064 --> 00:55:14,223
Speaker 2: doing the podcast and you own it. I open the

1114
00:55:14,223 --> 00:55:16,303
Speaker 2: restaurant because I can own the restaurant and I can

1115
00:55:16,424 --> 00:55:19,584
Speaker 2: operate that solely, and I can feel good about myself

1116
00:55:19,623 --> 00:55:20,423
Speaker 2: at the end of the day.

1117
00:55:21,064 --> 00:55:23,464
Speaker 1: So restaurants are posts. I don't have to tell you

1118
00:55:23,464 --> 00:55:27,863
Speaker 1: this post COVID. Like, the industry has really been been struggling. Yeah, uh,

1119
00:55:28,024 --> 00:55:30,304
Speaker 1: tell me about your restaurant and how you approach handling

1120
00:55:30,384 --> 00:55:31,824
Speaker 1: or having a restaurant in these times.

1121
00:55:32,064 --> 00:55:34,623
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the industry is really struggling. It's hard

1122
00:55:34,663 --> 00:55:38,424
Speaker 2: for everyone, especially with inflation. The cost of goods is

1123
00:55:38,504 --> 00:55:41,944
Speaker 2: so high that very few people can afford to go

1124
00:55:42,024 --> 00:55:44,824
Speaker 2: out and eat. And then even if you're a restaurant

1125
00:55:44,824 --> 00:55:48,263
Speaker 2: that does delivery carry out, those apps are taking such

1126
00:55:48,303 --> 00:55:50,224
Speaker 2: a large cut, which.

1127
00:55:50,024 --> 00:55:53,064
Speaker 1: People don't realize. Yeah, that the app gets there, gets

1128
00:55:53,104 --> 00:55:55,983
Speaker 1: their taste like like a mob, like a mob enforcer.

1129
00:55:56,143 --> 00:56:00,423
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, I think the average break even that like

1130
00:56:00,584 --> 00:56:03,104
Speaker 2: a small restaurant in New York needs to make each

1131
00:56:03,104 --> 00:56:05,863
Speaker 2: week right now is forty thousand dollars a week, which

1132
00:56:05,944 --> 00:56:09,024
Speaker 2: is a lot. Wow, there's a lot of money.

1133
00:56:08,824 --> 00:56:10,383
Speaker 1: Especially when you think a lot of restaurants are just

1134
00:56:10,424 --> 00:56:12,903
Speaker 1: like almost a just a hallway. You know, they're not

1135
00:56:12,984 --> 00:56:15,104
Speaker 1: like these giants. They're not serving one hundred tables a

1136
00:56:15,183 --> 00:56:15,704
Speaker 1: night or anything.

1137
00:56:15,783 --> 00:56:17,703
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you have a couple of people that

1138
00:56:17,743 --> 00:56:19,584
Speaker 2: are willing to be like the chef and the general

1139
00:56:19,623 --> 00:56:22,223
Speaker 2: manager and the server, then you know, maybe you can

1140
00:56:22,263 --> 00:56:27,343
Speaker 2: make thirty a week. But it's hard. Yeah. I did

1141
00:56:27,384 --> 00:56:30,224
Speaker 2: it because I just believe that people would want my food.

1142
00:56:30,783 --> 00:56:34,104
Speaker 2: And that may be crazy, but that's why. And I

1143
00:56:34,183 --> 00:56:37,504
Speaker 2: just knew I would put my full effort into it.

1144
00:56:38,064 --> 00:56:41,303
Speaker 2: And you know, lucky enough, people do love the food

1145
00:56:41,344 --> 00:56:45,424
Speaker 2: and it's working and I'm really happy. I tend to

1146
00:56:45,464 --> 00:56:49,343
Speaker 2: not look at the macro conditions as much. I think

1147
00:56:49,384 --> 00:56:51,943
Speaker 2: about like sword in the stone and just like, I'll

1148
00:56:51,944 --> 00:56:53,344
Speaker 2: pull this sword out of stone.

1149
00:56:54,263 --> 00:56:56,663
Speaker 1: What's the name of Bouhous the restaurant.

1150
00:56:56,904 --> 00:56:59,343
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on Saint Mark's between First and A. But

1151
00:56:59,464 --> 00:57:01,343
Speaker 2: I'm there pretty much seven days a week, and I

1152
00:57:01,384 --> 00:57:02,744
Speaker 2: really enjoyed my life there.

1153
00:57:02,944 --> 00:57:07,743
Speaker 1: Wow, that's beautiful. Before I let you go, there's a

1154
00:57:07,783 --> 00:57:10,223
Speaker 1: question I had. I'm adding one more extra question because

1155
00:57:10,263 --> 00:57:13,384
Speaker 1: I just feel like I'm not often in public around

1156
00:57:13,384 --> 00:57:16,863
Speaker 1: people who have access to these stories. But uh, I

1157
00:57:16,864 --> 00:57:20,304
Speaker 1: got to spend eleven days with Tony. We did an

1158
00:57:20,304 --> 00:57:22,943
Speaker 1: episode in Kenya his last season. It was the last

1159
00:57:22,944 --> 00:57:26,064
Speaker 1: finished episode, and we had been I'd been around it

1160
00:57:26,144 --> 00:57:28,144
Speaker 1: at like Emmy's and things at CNN, but we never

1161
00:57:28,224 --> 00:57:30,304
Speaker 1: That was the most we'd ever talked. And I got

1162
00:57:30,304 --> 00:57:31,704
Speaker 1: to hang out in the car with him and like

1163
00:57:31,904 --> 00:57:34,784
Speaker 1: going from shoot to shoot in a very content, very

1164
00:57:34,864 --> 00:57:36,944
Speaker 1: condensed period of time. I got to know him and

1165
00:57:37,024 --> 00:57:39,784
Speaker 1: felt like, oh, I might become friends with this guy. Yeah,

1166
00:57:39,824 --> 00:57:44,863
Speaker 1: you know, didn't didn't happen obviously, share And also right

1167
00:57:44,904 --> 00:57:46,343
Speaker 1: now we're sort of going through there seems to be

1168
00:57:46,344 --> 00:57:48,424
Speaker 1: this like every couple of years there's a new Tony

1169
00:57:48,464 --> 00:57:50,424
Speaker 1: thing that reminds me about Tony. And now there's like

1170
00:57:50,424 --> 00:57:52,464
Speaker 1: a there's like a film. I don't have to I

1171
00:57:52,504 --> 00:57:54,104
Speaker 1: don't know if you're involved in it or not, but

1172
00:57:54,344 --> 00:57:57,064
Speaker 1: I just very I'm sort of preparing for the the

1173
00:57:57,544 --> 00:57:59,944
Speaker 1: a lot more Anthony Bourdain talked to happen in the world,

1174
00:58:00,024 --> 00:58:01,784
Speaker 1: and yeah, sometimes I ends up being with me, even

1175
00:58:01,784 --> 00:58:03,504
Speaker 1: though I'm not. I was not a close friend of his,

1176
00:58:03,584 --> 00:58:06,784
Speaker 1: but I was a known person of the CNN talk

1177
00:58:06,824 --> 00:58:09,784
Speaker 1: about Tony. Well.

1178
00:58:10,344 --> 00:58:16,704
Speaker 2: Oddly, when I started cooking again last summer, I just

1179
00:58:16,744 --> 00:58:18,944
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to the dude. So I started to

1180
00:58:18,984 --> 00:58:23,384
Speaker 2: rewatch No Reservations again, and Tony to me was really

1181
00:58:23,424 --> 00:58:26,863
Speaker 2: like an uncle figure in my life. I would call

1182
00:58:26,944 --> 00:58:29,624
Speaker 2: him uncle tone, you know, like he really looked out

1183
00:58:29,664 --> 00:58:32,544
Speaker 2: for me, and like I was lucky enough that when

1184
00:58:32,584 --> 00:58:35,584
Speaker 2: we hung out he would make it like an intense

1185
00:58:35,704 --> 00:58:38,904
Speaker 2: one on one hang. You know, I'd hang out with

1186
00:58:39,024 --> 00:58:42,024
Speaker 2: him at events or with other chefs, and like, you know,

1187
00:58:42,624 --> 00:58:44,584
Speaker 2: I was on over. I've done the shows with him

1188
00:58:44,584 --> 00:58:46,704
Speaker 2: and stuff. Yeah, but that to me wasn't like the

1189
00:58:46,744 --> 00:58:47,943
Speaker 2: Tony I remember I.

1190
00:58:47,944 --> 00:58:48,464
Speaker 1: Go to is.

1191
00:58:48,744 --> 00:58:51,944
Speaker 2: You know, we had a you know, we were just

1192
00:58:52,104 --> 00:58:57,224
Speaker 2: hanging for a few hours and really just complain. Like

1193
00:58:57,624 --> 00:58:59,903
Speaker 2: the thing the two of us had in common was

1194
00:59:00,304 --> 00:59:05,264
Speaker 2: really that we were really dissatisfied with like injustice in

1195
00:59:05,304 --> 00:59:09,383
Speaker 2: the world and saw clearly like right and wrong and

1196
00:59:09,424 --> 00:59:15,544
Speaker 2: could not understand why the world was not shaping itself

1197
00:59:15,664 --> 00:59:19,383
Speaker 2: around morality. But then when you pull yourself out of

1198
00:59:19,384 --> 00:59:25,584
Speaker 2: that two man conversation, it's foolish. Yeah, it's foolish. And

1199
00:59:25,664 --> 00:59:29,504
Speaker 2: I think we both really struggled with the fact that

1200
00:59:29,664 --> 00:59:33,784
Speaker 2: we felt we held ourselves to high standards from a

1201
00:59:33,824 --> 00:59:38,424
Speaker 2: moral perspective as men, and why isn't the world around

1202
00:59:38,504 --> 00:59:47,904
Speaker 2: us doing that? And I mean Tony passing completely changed

1203
00:59:47,944 --> 00:59:51,064
Speaker 2: my life in so many ways that anyone who knows

1204
00:59:51,104 --> 00:59:54,624
Speaker 2: me and knows him reads come undone will You'll know,

1205
00:59:54,704 --> 00:59:59,504
Speaker 2: You'll see like, yeah, there's one character one mentioned, you know,

1206
00:59:59,704 --> 01:00:04,984
Speaker 2: and like it completely changed the direction of my life.

1207
01:00:05,664 --> 01:00:08,664
Speaker 2: Because we were both doing food shows and travel shows,

1208
01:00:08,704 --> 01:00:10,984
Speaker 2: and we would joke about how it would wear on.

1209
01:00:11,344 --> 01:00:13,863
Speaker 2: We would joke about how it's depressing, and he would

1210
01:00:13,904 --> 01:00:15,423
Speaker 2: say to me all the time, I'm just an old

1211
01:00:15,464 --> 01:00:18,104
Speaker 2: horror man. They're just setting me back out there. I'm

1212
01:00:18,144 --> 01:00:22,343
Speaker 2: an old whore. And I felt similar ways even though

1213
01:00:22,344 --> 01:00:25,584
Speaker 2: I was young, because on these shows you're being asked

1214
01:00:25,624 --> 01:00:28,184
Speaker 2: to be like, try this food and go here. Yo,

1215
01:00:28,304 --> 01:00:30,423
Speaker 2: this is an awesome place to visit. You got to come.

1216
01:00:30,824 --> 01:00:33,064
Speaker 2: But I will tell you ninety five percent of the

1217
01:00:33,064 --> 01:00:37,304
Speaker 2: places you go are really sad. It is a privilege

1218
01:00:37,344 --> 01:00:40,504
Speaker 2: to live in America, especially in New York City or

1219
01:00:40,584 --> 01:00:44,584
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, and the people that are your executives are

1220
01:00:44,984 --> 01:00:49,224
Speaker 2: only from New York and LA. Right, And there's this

1221
01:00:49,984 --> 01:00:54,784
Speaker 2: real blind spot when looking at other places and you

1222
01:00:54,824 --> 01:00:58,624
Speaker 2: want to promote the episode, you put out this trailer.

1223
01:00:58,664 --> 01:01:00,664
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it looks so dope to go to

1224
01:01:00,784 --> 01:01:04,264
Speaker 2: like the Borderlands, and I think Tony and I really

1225
01:01:04,304 --> 01:01:07,304
Speaker 2: worked hard to show people the underbelly of everything HM

1226
01:01:07,984 --> 01:01:13,024
Speaker 2: while not discouraging people from visiting and supporting their tourism.

1227
01:01:13,064 --> 01:01:19,024
Speaker 2: But I do think if you have an open heart

1228
01:01:19,744 --> 01:01:22,184
Speaker 2: and you're really trying to do the food travel thing

1229
01:01:22,704 --> 01:01:26,344
Speaker 2: honestly and correctly, it is impossible not to get fucking

1230
01:01:26,384 --> 01:01:26,903
Speaker 2: bummed out.

1231
01:01:28,344 --> 01:01:30,464
Speaker 1: You did it too, yeah, I mean, yeah, I certainly

1232
01:01:30,504 --> 01:01:31,304
Speaker 1: did the travel thing.

1233
01:01:32,064 --> 01:01:33,744
Speaker 2: You worked with a lot of the same crew too.

1234
01:01:33,664 --> 01:01:36,704
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I have yeah, no. After Tony passed, I

1235
01:01:36,824 --> 01:01:39,343
Speaker 1: ended up. It's sort of, I mean, it's sort of.

1236
01:01:39,824 --> 01:01:41,744
Speaker 1: I was working with a different production company and I

1237
01:01:41,784 --> 01:01:43,184
Speaker 1: just came to the end of row with that production

1238
01:01:43,184 --> 01:01:45,383
Speaker 1: company because the show was really evolving for me. Yeah,

1239
01:01:45,424 --> 01:01:47,504
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's not just to like I wanted

1240
01:01:47,504 --> 01:01:49,784
Speaker 1: to get into more like we like again the underbelly

1241
01:01:49,824 --> 01:01:52,863
Speaker 1: and also like have opinions and say things, and the

1242
01:01:52,864 --> 01:01:55,304
Speaker 1: show really was always like like I remember an early

1243
01:01:55,344 --> 01:01:57,863
Speaker 1: episode was like they had written some vo for me

1244
01:01:57,944 --> 01:01:59,904
Speaker 1: like it I had to keep wrestling for control and

1245
01:01:59,944 --> 01:02:02,264
Speaker 1: so finally I was like, I can't do it here anymore.

1246
01:02:02,584 --> 01:02:04,423
Speaker 1: And that was the same point that Tony had passed away,

1247
01:02:04,584 --> 01:02:07,144
Speaker 1: and parts and the people, you know, they were like

1248
01:02:07,184 --> 01:02:09,144
Speaker 1: open to producing the show, so I got to really

1249
01:02:09,224 --> 01:02:10,904
Speaker 1: be around. And I think for all of us it

1250
01:02:10,944 --> 01:02:14,664
Speaker 1: was because they were like needed a project and I

1251
01:02:14,664 --> 01:02:17,544
Speaker 1: became the project. And yeah, I'm hell And I just

1252
01:02:17,544 --> 01:02:18,903
Speaker 1: talked to her a few days ago.

1253
01:02:19,064 --> 01:02:23,144
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tony, Tony, the cool thing I really enjoyed talking

1254
01:02:23,224 --> 01:02:26,744
Speaker 2: about is you never had the sugarcoat things. He was

1255
01:02:26,784 --> 01:02:29,823
Speaker 2: like in this constant state of like embracing pain in

1256
01:02:29,864 --> 01:02:35,584
Speaker 2: his life and fully aware that like it's not totally awesome.

1257
01:02:36,344 --> 01:02:39,543
Speaker 2: And yeah, I you know, I would get the note

1258
01:02:39,544 --> 01:02:43,224
Speaker 2: a lot. When doing Wong's World or any show, there

1259
01:02:43,264 --> 01:02:45,464
Speaker 2: was always an executive in their job literally was to

1260
01:02:45,464 --> 01:02:47,064
Speaker 2: come to me like do you think we could get

1261
01:02:47,064 --> 01:02:50,304
Speaker 2: a happy ending? Do you think we could get a

1262
01:02:50,304 --> 01:02:50,903
Speaker 2: happy ending?

1263
01:02:51,064 --> 01:02:51,304
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1264
01:02:51,864 --> 01:02:53,464
Speaker 2: And of course I would go to like the most

1265
01:02:53,624 --> 01:02:55,624
Speaker 2: low level like oh yeah, like I'll give you a

1266
01:02:55,584 --> 01:03:00,024
Speaker 2: happy end. No, Like I was just like, honestly, there

1267
01:03:00,024 --> 01:03:03,544
Speaker 2: are I would say, the majority of this world doesn't

1268
01:03:03,584 --> 01:03:07,664
Speaker 2: get a happy ending. Yes, most people do not, So

1269
01:03:07,704 --> 01:03:13,264
Speaker 2: why do we keep reflecting this like aspirational life dream

1270
01:03:13,344 --> 01:03:16,664
Speaker 2: back to them that they will never experience or attain

1271
01:03:17,584 --> 01:03:21,224
Speaker 2: and that to me made me really fucking sad.

1272
01:03:22,264 --> 01:03:24,664
Speaker 1: And to be honest, to people who loved your show

1273
01:03:24,664 --> 01:03:27,104
Speaker 1: and loved Tony's show didn't actually want that. They weren't

1274
01:03:27,104 --> 01:03:29,823
Speaker 1: watching it. They weren't watching the same way like I'm

1275
01:03:29,864 --> 01:03:32,184
Speaker 1: traveling around the world to show you this hotel and

1276
01:03:32,224 --> 01:03:35,104
Speaker 1: this they actually wanted some you know, I flew with

1277
01:03:35,144 --> 01:03:37,423
Speaker 1: the United States. I got tired of every week the

1278
01:03:37,424 --> 01:03:39,543
Speaker 1: monologue that said what I had learned that week, because

1279
01:03:39,584 --> 01:03:43,424
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's the same thing. America's hard on everybody. Yeah,

1280
01:03:43,944 --> 01:03:45,304
Speaker 1: and there's no way to spend that and do a

1281
01:03:45,304 --> 01:03:47,624
Speaker 1: different way, just like, yeah, once again, America's hard and

1282
01:03:47,664 --> 01:03:48,264
Speaker 1: lets us down.

1283
01:03:48,544 --> 01:03:50,863
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look at the situation we're in now. I

1284
01:03:50,904 --> 01:03:53,744
Speaker 2: feel like we are in this situation because we were

1285
01:03:53,784 --> 01:03:56,423
Speaker 2: fed so much, so much. It'll be fine, It'll be fine.

1286
01:03:56,424 --> 01:03:56,984
Speaker 2: You don't have to worry.

1287
01:03:57,064 --> 01:04:00,224
Speaker 1: It's like now, it's a pendulum. Sometimes the left in jar,

1288
01:04:00,384 --> 01:04:01,264
Speaker 1: sometimes the rights injury.

1289
01:04:01,304 --> 01:04:04,744
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think that. You know, I was

1290
01:04:04,784 --> 01:04:07,584
Speaker 2: always funny on the show. I would always show great food,

1291
01:04:07,864 --> 01:04:12,784
Speaker 2: but I never wanted to look away from issues in

1292
01:04:12,864 --> 01:04:15,104
Speaker 2: the countries I was visiting. And I agree with you.

1293
01:04:15,144 --> 01:04:17,944
Speaker 2: People liked it because they're like you know what. I

1294
01:04:17,984 --> 01:04:18,664
Speaker 2: can handle that.

1295
01:04:18,784 --> 01:04:21,343
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can handle that. And people aren't watching your

1296
01:04:21,384 --> 01:04:24,064
Speaker 1: show or Tony's show or my show is certainly because

1297
01:04:24,104 --> 01:04:26,664
Speaker 1: they want to travel long Yeah, they're not watching it

1298
01:04:26,664 --> 01:04:27,704
Speaker 1: because they're like, where do I want to go on

1299
01:04:27,784 --> 01:04:30,224
Speaker 1: vacation next summer? I watch I'll watch Eddie show and

1300
01:04:30,224 --> 01:04:32,744
Speaker 1: figure out where the hotspots are. That's no w to.

1301
01:04:33,184 --> 01:04:34,704
Speaker 1: They want to see humanity up close.

1302
01:04:34,944 --> 01:04:37,543
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I hope it swings back around. I hope

1303
01:04:37,584 --> 01:04:40,383
Speaker 2: that people like us get another shot at it. Like

1304
01:04:40,584 --> 01:04:44,463
Speaker 2: I was super I definitely got tired and bummed out

1305
01:04:44,864 --> 01:04:47,064
Speaker 2: doing the show at the age I did. I think

1306
01:04:47,064 --> 01:04:48,944
Speaker 2: as a forty four year old with a family, I

1307
01:04:48,984 --> 01:04:51,664
Speaker 2: got a strong base. I would do it again, but

1308
01:04:51,864 --> 01:04:54,503
Speaker 2: like you know, because I have context now and there's

1309
01:04:54,504 --> 01:04:55,784
Speaker 2: like more balance in my life.

1310
01:04:56,024 --> 01:04:59,704
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Also it's funny. I would do

1311
01:04:59,744 --> 01:05:02,504
Speaker 1: it again too because I know a lot more and

1312
01:05:02,624 --> 01:05:04,624
Speaker 1: can be a lot more clear and efficient. And also

1313
01:05:04,864 --> 01:05:07,784
Speaker 1: I know who to hire now. I know who my

1314
01:05:07,784 --> 01:05:10,064
Speaker 1: team is now, who my people are to bring with

1315
01:05:10,064 --> 01:05:12,344
Speaker 1: me as opposed before I I was just assigned.

1316
01:05:11,904 --> 01:05:15,224
Speaker 2: People, and you know the challenges you're gonna face because

1317
01:05:15,264 --> 01:05:17,784
Speaker 2: like the first time I was like just sounds amazing.

1318
01:05:17,984 --> 01:05:20,423
Speaker 2: I travel around you do this, and then you start

1319
01:05:20,424 --> 01:05:22,863
Speaker 2: to see the things you're like, oh my gosh. But

1320
01:05:23,384 --> 01:05:25,383
Speaker 2: now if I go to any country, I just know

1321
01:05:25,504 --> 01:05:26,264
Speaker 2: I'm going to see that.

1322
01:05:26,544 --> 01:05:26,784
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1323
01:05:26,904 --> 01:05:29,424
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. But he was the best.

1324
01:05:29,624 --> 01:05:29,944
Speaker 1: He was.

1325
01:05:30,064 --> 01:05:32,424
Speaker 2: He was the most generous person I think I have

1326
01:05:32,504 --> 01:05:32,903
Speaker 2: ever been.

1327
01:05:32,904 --> 01:05:36,784
Speaker 1: And you both have that like uh, wrestling with your

1328
01:05:36,784 --> 01:05:39,864
Speaker 1: masculinity in real time and and rough around the edges

1329
01:05:39,904 --> 01:05:43,744
Speaker 1: and letting in your mouth gets ahead of you or whatever. Yeah, yeah,

1330
01:05:44,344 --> 01:05:45,823
Speaker 1: I don't say I don't want to find but yeah,

1331
01:05:45,824 --> 01:05:47,544
Speaker 1: certainly you say things. Both of the other things were

1332
01:05:47,664 --> 01:05:48,423
Speaker 1: Wait what did you say?

1333
01:05:48,984 --> 01:05:49,744
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1334
01:05:49,824 --> 01:05:52,584
Speaker 1: And where people go? Why would you say that? You know?

1335
01:05:52,944 --> 01:05:56,584
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh man, it's it's it's yeah. I

1336
01:05:57,104 --> 01:05:59,983
Speaker 2: really missed that dude, you know for sure.

1337
01:05:59,984 --> 01:06:01,863
Speaker 1: I just I'm not off and around people who knew

1338
01:06:01,904 --> 01:06:04,024
Speaker 1: him like you did. And and I always make people

1339
01:06:04,024 --> 01:06:05,823
Speaker 1: clear like I didn't know him know him. I just

1340
01:06:05,864 --> 01:06:07,984
Speaker 1: got to hang out with him for like eleven days

1341
01:06:08,424 --> 01:06:10,184
Speaker 1: and feel like and and felt like I got to

1342
01:06:10,184 --> 01:06:12,224
Speaker 1: go to fantasy camp with him and like really like

1343
01:06:12,304 --> 01:06:14,864
Speaker 1: felt like thank god I got to do that, because

1344
01:06:15,064 --> 01:06:17,224
Speaker 1: he definitely he had changed my life before I got

1345
01:06:17,224 --> 01:06:19,104
Speaker 1: to hang out with him, I got to tell him.

1346
01:06:19,304 --> 01:06:21,184
Speaker 1: One of things I feel grateful about on the show.

1347
01:06:21,944 --> 01:06:23,384
Speaker 1: One of things I feel great about on the show

1348
01:06:23,864 --> 01:06:25,744
Speaker 1: is I actually did tell him. I was like, if

1349
01:06:25,784 --> 01:06:27,024
Speaker 1: I go, I got to tell this guy how much

1350
01:06:27,064 --> 01:06:28,984
Speaker 1: he means to me. Yeah, And I got to tell

1351
01:06:29,064 --> 01:06:30,984
Speaker 1: him that, and it just ended up they recorded it

1352
01:06:31,024 --> 01:06:32,464
Speaker 1: and then after he passed away, they used it in

1353
01:06:32,504 --> 01:06:34,584
Speaker 1: the show. Because I think I became a surrogate for

1354
01:06:34,664 --> 01:06:36,024
Speaker 1: like everybody, you know.

1355
01:06:36,384 --> 01:06:39,823
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, he has guys he hung out

1356
01:06:39,864 --> 01:06:42,544
Speaker 2: with all the time, you know, like, yeah, I wasn't

1357
01:06:42,584 --> 01:06:45,383
Speaker 2: like hanging out with twenty every week, but I had

1358
01:06:46,144 --> 01:06:49,584
Speaker 2: you know, five six seven, really just like intense like

1359
01:06:50,664 --> 01:06:55,344
Speaker 2: hangs multiplers us just like complaining about shit. It's almost

1360
01:06:55,384 --> 01:06:57,424
Speaker 2: so intensely, I'll see you in a few months.

1361
01:06:57,184 --> 01:07:01,023
Speaker 1: Many things to complain about.

1362
01:07:01,184 --> 01:07:04,383
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so no, but I miss him because it's

1363
01:07:04,424 --> 01:07:07,343
Speaker 2: it's very rare to have like an older figure in

1364
01:07:07,384 --> 01:07:10,144
Speaker 2: your life who will just open up to you and

1365
01:07:10,864 --> 01:07:14,144
Speaker 2: how help you and not try to like make you

1366
01:07:14,184 --> 01:07:18,264
Speaker 2: feel dumb for going through challenges that they've already gone through.

1367
01:07:18,504 --> 01:07:22,624
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, all right, My last question I ask everybody,

1368
01:07:22,624 --> 01:07:25,423
Speaker 1: because this podcast is who's with me, And I think

1369
01:07:25,464 --> 01:07:27,503
Speaker 1: people need to know if there's any causes or anything

1370
01:07:27,544 --> 01:07:29,824
Speaker 1: you support that you want people to know about, because

1371
01:07:30,064 --> 01:07:31,744
Speaker 1: it's like I feel like part of this is also

1372
01:07:31,784 --> 01:07:33,943
Speaker 1: like pointing people in the right direction and letting people

1373
01:07:34,024 --> 01:07:34,543
Speaker 1: know how they.

1374
01:07:34,464 --> 01:07:37,863
Speaker 2: Can help, you know, the cause that I really care

1375
01:07:37,904 --> 01:07:40,264
Speaker 2: about the most, and hoping people can figure this out.

1376
01:07:40,264 --> 01:07:43,504
Speaker 2: It's not a specific charity, but just to like, I

1377
01:07:43,544 --> 01:07:46,784
Speaker 2: really hope that this country figures out a way to

1378
01:07:46,904 --> 01:07:52,664
Speaker 2: deal with domestic violence without simply criminalizing the individual and

1379
01:07:52,704 --> 01:07:56,464
Speaker 2: the home creating the violence, or reacting to a situation

1380
01:07:56,624 --> 01:08:01,503
Speaker 2: and responding with violence and breaking up families. I think

1381
01:08:01,504 --> 01:08:04,304
Speaker 2: we really need to think about better solutions, you know,

1382
01:08:04,504 --> 01:08:10,584
Speaker 2: Like I think all the solutions are like extremely punitive,

1383
01:08:10,704 --> 01:08:14,264
Speaker 2: and ultimately I do think they hurt kids the most.

1384
01:08:14,624 --> 01:08:17,983
Speaker 2: Like when I was going through it, the only option

1385
01:08:18,064 --> 01:08:20,664
Speaker 2: is like to call the police on your dad, and

1386
01:08:21,424 --> 01:08:23,664
Speaker 2: that really just wasn't an option because my mom didn't

1387
01:08:23,704 --> 01:08:26,224
Speaker 2: work and my mom straight up also was like do

1388
01:08:26,344 --> 01:08:30,104
Speaker 2: not call the police. But I think my mother and

1389
01:08:30,144 --> 01:08:32,464
Speaker 2: I and my brothers endured a lot of things that

1390
01:08:32,504 --> 01:08:37,504
Speaker 2: were like completely unnecessary. If there was some sort of

1391
01:08:37,544 --> 01:08:43,584
Speaker 2: like systemic response that was in between calling calling the

1392
01:08:43,584 --> 01:08:45,944
Speaker 2: police and your father going to jail for multiple years

1393
01:08:45,944 --> 01:08:49,624
Speaker 2: and then my mom's in the sandwich line, or let's

1394
01:08:49,744 --> 01:08:51,224
Speaker 2: pretend it's not happening.

1395
01:08:51,904 --> 01:08:54,384
Speaker 1: It's just what makes you think about In Oakland, there's

1396
01:08:54,424 --> 01:08:57,064
Speaker 1: a hotline that was started by uh friend of mine,

1397
01:08:57,104 --> 01:09:01,944
Speaker 1: Cat Brooks, who is a police abolitionists, like full stop,

1398
01:09:02,264 --> 01:09:03,864
Speaker 1: it was a big was big in the defund the

1399
01:09:03,904 --> 01:09:06,824
Speaker 1: police conversation. But the idea is like, it's a hot

1400
01:09:06,824 --> 01:09:10,064
Speaker 1: line because and this happens because related to this, if

1401
01:09:10,104 --> 01:09:13,504
Speaker 1: someone's having a mental health health challenge, often the only

1402
01:09:13,584 --> 01:09:16,304
Speaker 1: number calls the police, and if you're a person of color,

1403
01:09:16,304 --> 01:09:18,784
Speaker 1: if you're black, you might end up dead because the

1404
01:09:18,784 --> 01:09:20,184
Speaker 1: police don't know how to deal with somebody having a

1405
01:09:20,224 --> 01:09:22,144
Speaker 1: mental health challenge other than to murder them, you know.

1406
01:09:22,624 --> 01:09:25,384
Speaker 1: So it's happened many times, like people call the police

1407
01:09:25,384 --> 01:09:26,664
Speaker 1: because they just don't know who to call. So you

1408
01:09:26,704 --> 01:09:28,944
Speaker 1: call nine to one one because it's supposed to before I'm

1409
01:09:28,984 --> 01:09:31,184
Speaker 1: having an emergency and then show them with the gun

1410
01:09:31,224 --> 01:09:33,384
Speaker 1: shows up. Yeah, and then the person you were like, no,

1411
01:09:33,384 --> 01:09:36,064
Speaker 1: it was my cousin, my brother, my son, and now

1412
01:09:36,104 --> 01:09:37,984
Speaker 1: he's dead and the police think, well that's what we do.

1413
01:09:38,344 --> 01:09:40,784
Speaker 1: So there's a hotline that was started in the Bay Area,

1414
01:09:41,424 --> 01:09:45,184
Speaker 1: uh for you can call a hotline that somebody will

1415
01:09:45,184 --> 01:09:49,024
Speaker 1: come to help, mental health experts and social workers and

1416
01:09:49,144 --> 01:09:51,624
Speaker 1: people who come when you're like, I don't want a

1417
01:09:51,624 --> 01:09:53,744
Speaker 1: police officer to come. I don't want somebody with a

1418
01:09:53,784 --> 01:09:55,704
Speaker 1: gun to show up. I just need help. I need help,

1419
01:09:55,864 --> 01:09:56,024
Speaker 1: you know.

1420
01:09:56,144 --> 01:10:00,863
Speaker 2: Yeah, And actually a solution could just be like decriminalized

1421
01:10:01,064 --> 01:10:03,944
Speaker 2: institutional support. If there was a number to call instead

1422
01:10:03,944 --> 01:10:05,744
Speaker 2: of nine on one, maybe it's five to one one. Right,

1423
01:10:05,864 --> 01:10:07,784
Speaker 2: I already got three, we already got four. But maybe

1424
01:10:07,824 --> 01:10:09,984
Speaker 2: we call five to one one and a mother who's

1425
01:10:10,024 --> 01:10:13,544
Speaker 2: being beat or some a kid being hidden can call

1426
01:10:13,624 --> 01:10:16,424
Speaker 2: and be like, I want to decriminalized solution.

1427
01:10:16,584 --> 01:10:18,184
Speaker 1: I want to And also I want somebody's coming to

1428
01:10:18,224 --> 01:10:19,544
Speaker 1: de escalate the situation.

1429
01:10:19,744 --> 01:10:24,424
Speaker 2: De escalate, do decriminalize. We're not gonna, you know, go

1430
01:10:24,504 --> 01:10:27,784
Speaker 2: to that level. But I do need help. I need help,

1431
01:10:27,904 --> 01:10:30,064
Speaker 2: And like, I would like to create a bubble around

1432
01:10:30,064 --> 01:10:33,264
Speaker 2: this so that like the people involved are not criminalized.

1433
01:10:33,944 --> 01:10:37,904
Speaker 2: And I think as a citizen and as a let's

1434
01:10:37,944 --> 01:10:40,344
Speaker 2: call it a victim, you should be able to have

1435
01:10:40,424 --> 01:10:42,464
Speaker 2: the right to say I need help. But I do

1436
01:10:42,584 --> 01:10:44,264
Speaker 2: not want this to be a criminal matter.

1437
01:10:44,584 --> 01:10:46,504
Speaker 1: Yes, No, that's the that's the way I think about

1438
01:10:46,504 --> 01:10:48,544
Speaker 1: it. It's like you want somebody. Well, there are certainly a

1439
01:10:48,584 --> 01:10:50,504
Speaker 1: lot of these are pilot programs around the country that

1440
01:10:50,544 --> 01:10:55,224
Speaker 1: are doing this because again, you know, police budgets tend

1441
01:10:55,304 --> 01:10:57,424
Speaker 1: to be like the most funded part of local governments.

1442
01:10:57,864 --> 01:11:00,184
Speaker 1: And if you just and that's the fun of the police.

1443
01:11:00,264 --> 01:11:02,024
Speaker 1: People got afraid of the word to fund. But if

1444
01:11:02,024 --> 01:11:04,424
Speaker 1: you just took some of those resources and actually then

1445
01:11:04,504 --> 01:11:08,344
Speaker 1: hired social workers and mental health counselors and people who

1446
01:11:08,344 --> 01:11:11,424
Speaker 1: are violence interrupters, which is another thing that part of

1447
01:11:11,464 --> 01:11:13,664
Speaker 1: an organization called Live Free, which is about interrupting people

1448
01:11:13,664 --> 01:11:17,024
Speaker 1: who show up to interrupt violence, not to bring more violence. Yeah.

1449
01:11:17,104 --> 01:11:18,704
Speaker 1: That those those are the people who want to call

1450
01:11:18,744 --> 01:11:19,584
Speaker 1: in those situations.

1451
01:11:19,624 --> 01:11:23,384
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I felt like, you know, you have children.

1452
01:11:24,784 --> 01:11:29,104
Speaker 2: It's like the social worker role is still too close

1453
01:11:29,184 --> 01:11:29,903
Speaker 2: to the system.

1454
01:11:29,984 --> 01:11:30,744
Speaker 1: I got you, I got you.

1455
01:11:30,864 --> 01:11:34,064
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I feel like a social worker who operates

1456
01:11:34,184 --> 01:11:38,144
Speaker 2: like a doula. Yes, like in a birth situation, that's

1457
01:11:38,184 --> 01:11:40,624
Speaker 2: what we need for like violence in a home, like

1458
01:11:40,704 --> 01:11:46,184
Speaker 2: someone who's like shaman. Like everybody relax everybody relaxed.

1459
01:11:46,224 --> 01:11:47,944
Speaker 1: You know, hey, let me talk to you over here.

1460
01:11:48,304 --> 01:11:49,984
Speaker 1: It's just I don't have a gun on me, so

1461
01:11:50,024 --> 01:11:51,784
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not. I don't have a bad.

1462
01:11:51,904 --> 01:11:55,144
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yo, Dad, you put the bow staff down.

1463
01:11:55,824 --> 01:11:58,344
Speaker 2: You know, everybody chill out, like there needs to be

1464
01:11:58,424 --> 01:12:00,904
Speaker 2: something like that, and then they have the ability to

1465
01:12:01,064 --> 01:12:04,024
Speaker 2: escalate it to a level if they can't. But I

1466
01:12:04,064 --> 01:12:06,304
Speaker 2: hope somebody smarter than us can figure this out.

1467
01:12:06,504 --> 01:12:08,264
Speaker 1: Well, I certainly know people who are smarter than us

1468
01:12:08,264 --> 01:12:09,864
Speaker 1: who are working on it. But I think the fact

1469
01:12:09,864 --> 01:12:13,144
Speaker 1: you're talking about it is ideas get socialized and people

1470
01:12:13,184 --> 01:12:15,224
Speaker 1: are sharing now who have like never thought of these things.

1471
01:12:15,584 --> 01:12:17,104
Speaker 1: And I'm sure at first they heard like, what do

1472
01:12:17,144 --> 01:12:19,424
Speaker 1: you mean, don't call the cops with domestic violes? Happens

1473
01:12:19,424 --> 01:12:22,264
Speaker 1: when you're saying because there's a family involved, and you

1474
01:12:22,384 --> 01:12:25,904
Speaker 1: just and also, as I know, cops escalate situations that

1475
01:12:26,064 --> 01:12:28,304
Speaker 1: need to be de escalated. Yeah, yeah yeah.

1476
01:12:28,784 --> 01:12:31,064
Speaker 2: When the cops got called in my house, I was like, fuck, now,

1477
01:12:31,104 --> 01:12:33,584
Speaker 2: I gotta now, I gotta lie to this guy and

1478
01:12:33,824 --> 01:12:35,904
Speaker 2: get them out of here, because like they're not going

1479
01:12:35,984 --> 01:12:37,464
Speaker 2: to help. There's just I'm gonna end up in a

1480
01:12:37,504 --> 01:12:38,104
Speaker 2: foster home.

1481
01:12:38,184 --> 01:12:40,864
Speaker 1: Well, it's like that. They It was that expression if

1482
01:12:41,104 --> 01:12:42,984
Speaker 1: if you only have a hammer, then everything look like

1483
01:12:43,024 --> 01:12:47,344
Speaker 1: a nail. It's the cop thing with the escalating situations.

1484
01:12:47,544 --> 01:12:52,024
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very I love this conversation.

1485
01:12:52,184 --> 01:12:54,704
Speaker 1: Thank you, brother, Thank you. Last question the podcast is

1486
01:12:54,784 --> 01:12:56,744
Speaker 1: with me? Are you with me? I'm with you all right,

1487
01:12:56,784 --> 01:12:59,504
Speaker 1: I'm with you, Bron. It's the first time we've ever talked,

1488
01:12:59,544 --> 01:13:02,824
Speaker 1: so it's gonna worked out differently, but I appreciate you. No,

1489
01:13:03,104 --> 01:13:09,464
Speaker 1: I love it, Bro, Thank you, thank you, Thank you

1490
01:13:09,504 --> 01:13:12,024
Speaker 1: for tuning in to this week's episode of Who's with

1491
01:13:12,064 --> 01:13:14,464
Speaker 1: Me with my guest Eddie Wong again. Get his book

1492
01:13:14,504 --> 01:13:18,464
Speaker 1: come undone anywhere where books are sold, but I would

1493
01:13:18,464 --> 01:13:20,664
Speaker 1: say go to bookshop dot org. They are a website

1494
01:13:20,664 --> 01:13:22,584
Speaker 1: in case you don't know about them that you can

1495
01:13:22,664 --> 01:13:24,784
Speaker 1: order the book from the website, but it also supports

1496
01:13:24,824 --> 01:13:26,944
Speaker 1: independent bookstores around the country. I think you can pick

1497
01:13:26,984 --> 01:13:28,544
Speaker 1: the one you want to support, the independent bookstre you

1498
01:13:28,584 --> 01:13:30,544
Speaker 1: want to support. It's a way to get your books online,

1499
01:13:30,624 --> 01:13:34,464
Speaker 1: but also support brick and mortar independent bookstores. We talked

1500
01:13:34,504 --> 01:13:38,104
Speaker 1: about MH one again that is based in Oakland. You

1501
01:13:38,144 --> 01:13:40,664
Speaker 1: can go to Anti Police Terror Project dot org to

1502
01:13:40,704 --> 01:13:43,304
Speaker 1: check them out. They're also connected with people around the country,

1503
01:13:43,304 --> 01:13:45,624
Speaker 1: so I'm sure they could also recommend other things. And

1504
01:13:45,704 --> 01:13:48,984
Speaker 1: also we talked about live free, which is LIVEFREEUSA dot

1505
01:13:49,104 --> 01:13:53,504
Speaker 1: org again, violence interruption, ending gun violence, ending massive incarceration.

1506
01:13:53,544 --> 01:13:55,704
Speaker 1: I'm on the board of directors of that. I'm friends

1507
01:13:55,704 --> 01:13:59,824
Speaker 1: with Catbrooks at Anti Police Terror Project. Please spread the

1508
01:13:59,824 --> 01:14:02,584
Speaker 1: word and also, like I said, these organizations definitely exist

1509
01:14:02,624 --> 01:14:04,704
Speaker 1: around the country. Please put the ones you know about

1510
01:14:04,744 --> 01:14:06,944
Speaker 1: so we can spread the word of the good things

1511
01:14:06,984 --> 01:14:10,384
Speaker 1: going on this episode of Who's with Me? As All

1512
01:14:10,464 --> 01:14:13,504
Speaker 1: episodes of with Me are posted by Pushkin Industries and

1513
01:14:13,584 --> 01:14:17,064
Speaker 1: produced by Rappagrant Productions. Also produced by my company, Who

1514
01:14:17,064 --> 01:14:20,664
Speaker 1: Knows Best Productions, which is right here again. Check out

1515
01:14:20,664 --> 01:14:24,264
Speaker 1: my stand up dates coming up soon. Follow me on substack.

1516
01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:28,144
Speaker 1: Shout out to Chris Dowd from Legendary Fishbone for the

1517
01:14:28,144 --> 01:14:33,224
Speaker 1: theme song. And also this week, do something good for yourself,

1518
01:14:33,504 --> 01:14:35,904
Speaker 1: do something good for your community, do something good for

1519
01:14:35,944 --> 01:14:37,744
Speaker 1: the world, and let me know in the comments what

1520
01:14:37,784 --> 01:14:40,064
Speaker 1: those things were. It's important. We got to stick together

1521
01:14:40,144 --> 01:14:44,064
Speaker 1: these days. There's a lot going on. Next week, my

1522
01:14:44,144 --> 01:14:49,184
Speaker 1: guest is Leslie Jones, comedian Leslie Jones. It's a rollicking

1523
01:14:49,264 --> 01:14:54,024
Speaker 1: one Leslie. It's basically me on Leslie Jones podcast next week.

1524
01:14:54,144 --> 01:15:11,224
Speaker 1: Check it out. H